Saddleback Church RESPONDS To SBC Removal!

Hey guys, Colin here, and welcome back to Fight For Truth, the channel where we bring you Christian commentary about the things that matter.

In today's video, we're going to be talking about Rick Warren's Saddleback Church. As many of you already know, we recently made a video about them being removed from the

Southern Baptist Convention because they have female pastors at their church. This was a decision that Rick Warren and company clearly disagreed with.

But recently, someone sent me a video of Andy Wood, the current pastor of Saddleback who took over for Rick, and in this video,

Andy is offering his response to the decision made by the SBC. More than this, he also gives us his major arguments in favor of having female pastors at his church.

And for the record, Andy's wife Stacey Wood is herself called a teaching pastor at Saddleback.

So in today's video, we're going to see what Andy has to say, and I'm going to give you my response and why, frankly,

I'm not convinced of his position. In fact, I don't think his arguments are particularly biblical. So without further ado, watch the first clip.

Check this out. It's important to understand that in the New Testament, there is a concept called spiritual offices that God gives to us, and there are spiritual gifts.

And when it comes to spiritual gifts, there are, there's a myriad or a whole list of spiritual gifts that you see showing up all throughout the

New Testament. But in particular, there were five spiritual gifts that the Apostle Paul talks about in the book of Ephesians that are equipping gifts.

In verse 11, he says Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, pastors and the teachers.

So this is important for us to recognize from a descriptive angle, the New Testament shows us women in apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher roles.

So just in case you didn't catch that, we're going to put this passage up on your screen now. It says that God gave as a gift to the

Church, the, quote, apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers, end quote.

So from the very beginning, this has been the central argument of Rick Warren, Andy Wood, and Saddleback Church.

Essentially, they draw a big distinction between the office of pastor and the gift of pastoring.

The office of pastor or elder or overseer, as the scriptures might call it, is reserved only for men.

And even Saddleback agrees with this as all of their elders are male. And many denominations would draw a distinction between these particular offices.

This is why some may have bishops who oversee local church elders. But my particular position, one which is shared by many scholars as well, is that these terms pastor, elder, overseer, bishop, etc.

are all used interchangeably in the New Testament. In Denny Burke's response to Rick Warren, he demonstrates this quite well.

His article will be linked in the description. If we look at the word pastor or shepherd, we can see that this is used in Ephesians 4 .11,

which Andy Wood quotes. The word for this in Greek is poimen. The word for overseer or bishop is episkopos, and it is used in 1

Timothy 3 .1, for example. It says, quote, The saying is trustworthy. If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

And the very next verse says that this overseer must be the husband of one wife. And finally, the word for elder is presbuteros, which is used in 1

Timothy 5 .17, as it says, Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching.

So in summary, we have pastor or shepherd, then we have overseer, and then we have elder. And as noted before, there is a tremendous amount of overlap in these terms in several passages.

In one text, all of the terms are used together in rotation. In Acts 20, verse 17,

Paul, quote, called the elders of the church of Ephesus to come to him. And curiously, he tells these elders in verse 28, quote,

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which

He obtained with His own blood. End quote. The word for flock here is poimneion, which is directly related to the previous word for shepherd or pastor, poimene.

After all, a pastor or shepherd takes care of a flock, so it's not exactly a stretch to associate these terms.

But Paul also says that the Holy Spirit made these men overseers, which is the word episkopos.

So basically, these elders also happen to be overseers and shepherds.

That is why I, and many others, consider these offices to be more or less synonymous.

But let's return to Andy Wood's argument with this information. He suggests that there is an office of pastor, and then a gift of pastoring.

So a woman cannot be an elder in his church, but a woman can exercise her pastoring gift by teaching the church.

Here's why I don't find that convincing. First, Ephesians 4 .11 could just as easily be saying that the office itself and the qualified men chosen to fill it are a gift to the church.

There's no good reason that I can see to draw such a firm distinction between office and gift.

And also, as we've already covered, there is no blatant or convenient distinction between pastor and elder.

And more than this, even if there was a gift of pastoring separate from the office, that would not mean that the women who have this gift are free to use it in any way they see fit.

For example, there could be a man who is perfectly capable of teaching, but if he has multiple wives, contrary to 1

Timothy 3, then he cannot use his gift as a pastor or overseer. Just because you have a gift doesn't mean that you can use it in whatever way you want.

And finally, 1 Timothy 2 .12 says that women are prohibited from teaching in church.

This says nothing about the office of pastor and everything about the function of teaching.

So Andy's argument here simply does not convince me at any level. But this is not the only one he uses.

Ephesians 4 .11 speaks of apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, and teachers. And essentially,

Andy makes the case that he can find examples of women in each one of these offices. Let's start with the office of apostle.

Watch this. The apostle, I'll give you an example, Romans chapter 16, verse 7.

There's a moment where Junia, a woman by the name of Junia, was commissioned as an apostle.

In fact, Paul says she was known as an apostle. So Andy confidently says that there was a woman commissioned as an apostle.

Her name was Junia, and she was mentioned in Romans 16 .7, which according to Andy, should be translated as the following.

Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me.

So the claim is that Junia is a woman's name, and that she is well known as an apostle.

But I am not convinced by the argument here, because it comes with several problems. Problem 1.

There is heavy debate on whether or not the name here is masculine or feminine. Now full disclosure,

I am not a Greek scholar. But in a video I will link in the description, Dr. James White, who is an expert in Biblical Greek, offers his perspective.

James says that if you look at the name in its original Greek form, there is no way of knowing definitively if it is masculine or feminine.

The distinction is not present at the level of the text, but it would be present in what he calls the accenting of the word.

So to confidently say that we know for a fact this was a woman's name is simply not true.

Problem 2. There is a controversy over whether this individual was well known as an apostle, or if they were well known to the apostles.

Again, on this topic James White says that it's very difficult to know with complete certainty from the

Greek text itself. Problem 3. Being an apostle does not always mean that you carry the authority of the twelve apostles or the

Apostle Paul. Some of these men wrote Scripture, 2 Peter 3 .16, did miracles, 2

Corinthians 12 .12. They were commissioned by Christ Himself, 1 Corinthians 9 .1. And they even settled disputes in the local church with authority, 1

Corinthians 5 .2. And in Greek, the word for apostle is apostolos. But there is also a much more generic sense of being an apostle besides being the twelve or Paul.

The very same word is used to refer to people like Titus in 2 Corinthians 8 .23 and Apophroditus in Philippians 2 .25.

And in these cases, the word is used in such a way as to represent them simply as messengers or representatives of the

Church. So it is entirely possible that Paul is merely referring to this individual Junia as a messenger and not as an authoritative apostle.

Problem 4. This example of Romans 16 takes place not during an exposition of any kind of doctrine, but on a list of people

Paul is greeting and commending in ministry. And this name appears only one time in all of Scripture.

In other words, this is hardly a solid foundation upon which you can base your entire position. And this brings us to problem 5.

Every single one of the twelve apostles, and Paul, were men. This establishes a clear pattern that goes back to the earthly ministry of Jesus Himself.

So if Andy Wood wants to change this pattern, then he should probably have some rock -solid evidence, right?

But as we have demonstrated, he wants us to believe that there was an authoritative female apostle.

And this despite the fact that the name is under dispute, the meaning of apostle here is under dispute, and this is a single name on a greeting list that is used only once in all of Scripture.

So you can see why I don't find this argument particularly convincing. But of course, next we have prophet and evangelist.

Watch this. When it comes to prophets, we see Philip in Acts chapter 2.

He had four daughters who were prophets. When it comes to evangelists, in John chapter 20 verses 16 through 18, the first evangelists after the resurrection were women.

Okay, first, the fact that the daughters of Philip prophesied has nothing to do with the question of female pastorship.

If these women were godly, then they would have submitted to the authority of men over the family and the local church, as the

Bible clearly prescribes in all the passages we've mentioned thus far. So doctrinally speaking, there is absolutely no contradiction here.

Second, he says that in John 20, women were the first evangelists. Here I have to offer some pushback.

This is a claim used by egalitarians very often, and frankly, I think it's a bit disingenuous.

In John chapter 20, Mary Magdalene sees the risen Jesus at His tomb, and He tells her to give this message to the disciples, "...I

am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." So was

Mary an exemplary and godly woman? Yes. Should she be recognized and praised for that?

Yes. But was she the first evangelist in the way that we would think of it today? Well, I think that's a bit of a stretch.

She did inform the disciples that Jesus had risen. But this is not really what we think of as evangelism properly today.

An evangelist is one who preaches the Gospel to those who have not heard or accepted it. This is not really what

Mary did in John 20. Again, yes, she did report good news from Jesus. But did she preach the full

Gospel to complete unbelievers before anyone else ever did? Not really. At least, there's nothing in the text that indicates that.

So again, calling women the first evangelists seems to be more of a well -meaning yet empty slogan than anything else.

And also, women and men are perfectly capable of preaching the Gospel. No one is disputing that fact at all.

1 Peter 3 .15 talks about, quote, "...always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you."

All Christians can be evangelists, but only men can be elders. And ironically enough, this is something that Andy Wood has already said he agrees with elsewhere in the video.

And Saddleback only has male elders, as we've already covered, so using this as some sort of argument in favor of female pastors is absurd, even by his own standards.

But of course, this brings us to the final examples of Ephesians 4 .11, which are shepherd and teacher.

Watch this. When it comes to shepherds, in 1 Corinthians 16 .19, we see very clearly

Aquila and Priscilla were shepherds that were in a local church, and they were shepherding people.

Now this example is, intentionally or not, extremely misleading. 1 Corinthians 16 .19

says, quote, "...the churches of Asia send you greetings. Aquila and Priscilla, together with the church in their house, send you hearty greetings in the

Lord." End quote. Priscilla and Aquila were a husband and wife. This passage simply tells us that the church met in their house.

This does not mean that Priscilla was pastoring the church, nor does it mean that those who attended the church would've called her pastor.

And of course, it goes without saying, this doesn't mean she was teaching in the church, which is precisely what we're debating here.

But there's another passage about these two that may come into play here as well. We know that in Acts 18, a man named

Apollos was teaching, but his doctrine was not sufficient because he only knew the baptism of John.

So, quote, "...when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately."

End quote. Is this an example of female pastoring? No. First, Priscilla was with her husband the entire time, and therefore, she was under his headship as the correction took place.

And second, this was a matter of private correction, not public teaching. So to use this example in favor of female pastors is a really big stretch.

But in the next clip, Andy talks about teaching. Watch this. People, when it comes to teachers, in Romans chapter 16, verse 1 and 2,

Paul in particular commends a woman by the name of Phoebe as a teacher. Now this particular claim is, again, incredibly misleading, perhaps even more than the last one, if that's even possible.

This example has literally nothing to do with the point that he's trying to make. Here is what Romans 16, 1 -2 actually says, quote, "...I

commend to you our sister Phoebe, a servant of the church, that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the saints, and help her in whatever she may need from you, for she has been a patron of many, and of myself as well."

Now in all likelihood, this indicates that Phoebe was the bearer of Paul's letter to the Romans, or at least she was traveling with whoever was delivering it.

All this passage says is that Phoebe was an upstanding Christian woman who served the Church faithfully.

There is absolutely zero indication in this passage that Phoebe ever formally taught anyone in the

Church. It is misleading beyond comprehension to say on the basis of this text that Phoebe was an example of a female pastor or teacher.

So in conclusion, here's my main concern. Saddleback's channel on YouTube has over half a million subscribers, and I don't want people to be misled in this way.

In short, the arguments offered by Pastor Andy Wood and Rick Warren in support of female pastors simply are not convincing.

Their statements are either rooted in a misunderstanding of Scripture or blatantly inserting meanings into the text which are simply not there.

The Biblical evidence that we have indicates that women should not hold the title of pastor nor should they teach the

Church. Both of these things are being defied by Rick Warren and Saddleback Church, and therefore they were justly removed from the

SBC. Moreover, this Biblical truth has been recognized by the majority of Christians throughout

Church history. And there's no good reason for us to change that, given the arguments we've seen today.

To put it simply, Andy Wood's position in favor of female pastors is based on flimsy evidence at best, and outright falsehood at worst.

And that is why I don't believe we should find this convincing. I pray this has been a blessing to you, and please know this video isn't meant as a sinful attack, but rather as a

Biblical critique. Pray for this channel and for anyone discussed in the video. Many of you are looking for teaching resources or trying to find a new

Church. If so, check out the teaching ministries and Church networks linked in the description. And by God's grace, let's move forward joyfully, holding to the truth of God's Word.

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