Calvinism, Character and Callers

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white and good morning. Welcome to.

2004 some of you are probably not quite awake yet. I'm not really certain that I am. I think New Year's Eve even if you want to go to bed at a decent time. You really can't especially if you own an animal that lives outside.

Because of all the noise, I mean my dog was barking at three o 'clock this morning. I went outside and and there was somebody down down the block someplace, I'm not sure quite where and they Sound like they weren't exactly Fit to drive a motor vehicle, let's put it that way and They were having a good old time down there.

Of course, my my dog's going excuse me, but that's not good and so I had to Remind her that it was not good to be barking in the middle of night. But anyway, so that means probably most of you are a little bleary eyed this morning.

I know that I am just a tad bit, but it is 2004 and we figured hey, you know, it's just the first day of the year. It's not like it's you know. Everyone just has to be glued to the television watching the Rose Bowl parade or something like that so let's go ahead and do the dividing line and I Had to bring up what I said here on the on the The main page because for some strange reason we already have two callers Online we almost never have callers beforehand.

But I guess it's due to the fact that I have on the main page. Secondly, we will have a dividing line Thursday morning and 11 a .m. Mountain Standard Time. Yes, we know it's New Year's Eve. So on so forth so put in your calendar call gave the number.

Otherwise I said I will have to my world-famous British accent the whole hour in between John Denver Christmas music while doing a top-ten countdown of Barry Manilow's greatest hits and Evidently the threat worked.

It worked real well. Because you know, I'm not sure which element of it worked the best whether it was the John Denver Christmas music which I I didn't even I Didn't even queue it up, you know, I had this great Christian music going.

I can do that if we need to the Barry Manilow greatest hits. Or whether it was the world famous British accent. I'm not sure. Excuse me, I love that cough button. Oh all the callers just hung up because I reneged on my promise.

I That's funny. Goodness well, I Still have Robert Shank's book and Lawrence Vance's book sitting here to my left so I can get to them if in fact we get through the phone calls first, but Petey loves it.

Petey Petey runs. Petey's the one that lets you all listen to this and he's threatening to kill the feed if there are any more British accents so Look, you know, I you know, let me have my thing, you know, I mean, come on folks this is this is just you know, I I think someday we'll just do an entire dividing line nothing, but the He tried to do the accent and God struck him mute sounds a little bit like the Mm text Mars story about the you know most of our most of our listeners have never heard that story because We weren't even doing the dividing line when that took place and sometimes people will will go and read the old articles and website.

But many times they won't but it reminds me of what happened with Don Wilkins when we were doing the John Ankerberg show back in 1995 and we did eight sessions and As I recalled Don Wilkins had flown in from Greece if I recall correctly and didn't and he had to take some of his migraine medication which very strong stuff that dried him out and It was either here or Dan Wallace.

No, I think Dan Wallace came from Dallas. So anyway Don Wilkins had just flown in he had taken his medication and we started one of the sessions and John Ankerberg asked him a Question about Gail Ripplinger and as he started to respond He got choked up and he he Messed up a word or two and since it was right at the beginning of the program if it had been you know farther into The program they probably done this but it was the very first thing the program John Ankerberg said at let hold on get a drink.

You got a drink. We restarted it and boom just kept on going and I remember leaning over to the late Farstad dr. Farstad who was sitting next to me and I remember Saying to him, you know what? I Bet you anything that when this gets out there's going to be a Someone's gonna say that the gods God did that and he looked at me like you've got to be kidding.

Who would be so inane stupid and idiotic as do something like that? Well within I don't know what I forget. How are it was now? This is a decade ago, but almost decade ago within just a couple of weeks, maybe months Boom you you had the text Mars out there saying that God had taken away.

Dr Wilkins voice for criticizing Gail Ripplinger. Well, of course actually he took a drink of water and then criticized Gail Ripplinger. So evidently the Spirit of God is unable to overcome the massive power of a drink of water but that was the kind of stuff that that had apocryphal kind of idiocy that rolls around out there and Definitely makes Christians look really dumb at times.

But anyhow, I just saw someone ask a channel when is the book debate with dr White and Dave hunt do out is due out in February from Multnomah. It was interesting. I thought I'd mentioned this and we've got callers.

I need to get to I realize that There it is. I was looking at the Bree and call this morning. Which of course is Dave hunts ministries website there was a Note from TA McMahon who interestingly enough is now saying that the reason that Dave hunt Said what he said the beginning of our radio program.

Some of you have heard that radio program where on the Marty Minto show. Just found out Marty Minto's doing radio in Philadelphia. No, was it Pittsburgh Philadelphia forget which one it was anyway. That when he said he had never read the Reformers that was just his humility speaking and He just that that he did he wasn't indicating that he hadn't read the Reformers even though he said he hadn't read the Reformers.

That was just his humility. He didn't want to show off in essence the great humility that was there but anyways, the TA McMahon says In his Little thing with Bobby here. Let me see here. Word. It's where to go.

He's talking about wanting to get a new Let me see Q &A printable format where to go. Did he to do did he. I was just reading it this morning. Anyways that basically he was talking about the upcoming book.

Maybe they just changed it since I saw it this morning. That would be funny. He was talking about the fact that they are they need to look for a new Publisher. Here it is. There it is. Here we go. Dave's book Calvinism now notice this Dave's book Calvinism debated five points two views published by Multnomah is scheduled to be in bookstores by March.

Dave's book have I ever addressed this book as my book and not mentioned that it's a debate with Dave Hunt. They won't even mention my name here. Wonder. I wonder if when they advertise that they could put a little one of those little black squares over my name on the cover.

We don't want you to know that a Calvinist was involved with it. No, in fact, he gets equal space. But you won't notice that did you get the book? Read this ago. Excuse me. It's a debate book. It even says two views right there.

You anyways and then notice this it's really funny however Multnomah who purchased the rights to what love is this Calvinism's misrepresentation of God from loyal publishers and Was well into preparations revisions new cover marketing promotions, etc.

For its release this month has decided against publishing it. Hey, I could we could we do something here? Make sure my computer is up. Please. Let me read that again. Was well into preparations revisions new cover marketing promotions, etc for its release this month has decided against publishing it.

Yes, the folks they're God's. Yes, they did decide to not publish it because they didn't want to be associated with something that's quite that bad. But anyways, therefore notice the next line our game plan is to print a limited number parentheses with Dave's Revisions parentheses as we seek a new publisher now.

I wonder why mr. Hunt has made revisions in the book. I Know I'm going to be looking for somebody who has a lot of time on their hands and who? Has a Original loyal printing. I want to get hold of this new version when it comes out and it almost looks like print a limited number.

Means, you know take it to one of these vanity presses and and you've got the stuff in the original printing. You just put it out again. I want to see what these revisions are. I like to make some predictions something tells me that the unequivocal denial of limited atonement by Spurgeon might be softened a bit and I bet you maybe Giving a translation of acts 1348 that actually is that of the New World translation might be changed a little bit.

Something tells me that some of these major league faux pas that were originally identified are gonna disappear. But I'm gonna go out on a limb it is, you know in 2000 in January you always sort of make Predictions about the future.

Well, I'm gonna predict it. I'll bet you there's no Indication With the revisions of the errors that are being corrected. Hmm. I have a feeling that's probably what's gonna happen. So anyways, I found that rather interesting on the on the website.

That's supposed to be out in February. We need to start taking pre-orders, by the way right, reverend, dr Ailman person because Amazon is and if Amazon is then there are these people that just simply can't you know.

Avoid giving a credit card number. So I think we should do it, too. And by the way, we haven't done this yet. And I we need to we need to this week. We need to before Tuesday of next week. We need to do this.

I'm holding in my hand then we'll take our phone calls. I'm holding in my hand. One of the best books on the deity of Christ that has ever been written now. There's some great books in the deity of Christ Jesus is God Robert Raymond's work on on the Messiah excellent stuff.

Sadly a lot, you know, you're not going to find this in a lot of your bookstores. Unfortunately because a lot of bookstores look face it. They can't put that on their shelves they have to leave all the room for the purpose-driven life because if you don't have 5 ,000 copies of purpose-driven life in your in your bookstore, then you're just not speed.

So anyway We are going to be carrying and promoting heavily The book in my hand called the Lord of Glory a classic defense the deity of Jesus Christ. By BB Warfield and if you're truly reformed, you know that BB Warfield means means Benjamin Breckinridge and If you're really really reformed You've actually thought about giving one of your children the middle name of Breckinridge.

I didn't know none of my children have the middle name Breckinridge, but my wife just said no. No, it's not gonna happen. This is an excellent excellent book. Poor E. Nielsen still has Beckwith's book available.

If any of you are still looking for Roger Beckwith's book on the Old Testament in the New Testament Church get in touch with us. There are only nine copies left. We've got them. They're moving fast folks.

In fact, I saw do you know what I didn't tell AOM in this? I saw an old crown version. Someone sent me a URL an old crown version of God's Sovereign Grace the blue one on eBay for 50. What was it. 59 bucks?

I think was 59 bucks. I saw it last night. They get someone sent me the URL. I appreciated that and it was for 50 bucks. And you know why it was so expensive because I signed it. I Just died laughing.

I've got one right here. I could I could sign and sell for 59 bucks. Good grief. It ain't worth 59 bucks. Buy our $10 version and it'll be in better shape. Good grief. That was amazing. Anyhow, I thought that was really funny, but the Lord of Glory BB Warfield.

Probably one of the one of the Biggest honors for 2003 honestly. Is the fact that the first you know, I first read this. I remember sitting in the science lab at Grand Canyon College. Reading this book and just going wow is so neat and One of the greatest honors I have is that as this book has now been reprinted the very first Endorsed on the back says the following.

BB Warfield's Lord of Glory is one of the most compelling presentations of the deity of the Lord Jesus Christ I have ever encountered. Warfield had a special gift of explaining issues related to the Trinity and the deity of Christ and the Lord of Glory is simply one of his best works.

I cannot recommend this work more highly. Especially when it addresses some evidences of the deity of Christ that are not as often addressed. Those places where the words of Scripture used of Christ simply could not be used with propriety of any creature.

No matter how exalted every believer should read and absorb this work. James White. That's what I said about it. And it's the first endorsement on the back and I'm excited and we need to have we need to order our supply in.

Get them up there on the website get them out in the people's hands buy them for your pastors and your elders. If you live in an area where there's a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses running about from door to door.

You need to get copies this book carry them in your in your glove compartment and track down the JWs as they're going neighborhood and pull in front of them in your car and jump out and say you need to read this book.

Of course they're not Going to take it from you, but they might think twice before going down that street again. If you if you did do that, so anyway Lord of Glory BB Warfield. We should have a link up to it real soon.

Because now I've I've forced a omen to do it because now people are gonna be calling him and asking anyways. And so you know that's just sort of how it's too late because we are. Because we're already doing this live so.

Yes, the dividing line has started on the right foot for 2004. Let me back up here and see who was first in line here now these first two that are calling early. I'm scared because I'm assuming that they're doing so because what was on the website and.

So that means they do not want they do not want to hear the British accent or anything like it on the program today. So let us go ahead and begin with Jeff in South Jersey. Hello Jeff. Yeah.

Happy 2004 to you. It's an intervention actually it's a what it's an intervention. It's it. Oh you're I Am actually calling. I was I actually worked a very long day yesterday, so I didn't have to go into work on Friday and I'm.

I was browsing the website at work, and I saw yeah, I got a call on.

Well you know I you know only people who really love you will intervene to To stop you from doing those kinds of things. So my suggestion for you for New Year Work on like a cocky.

Like this.

He bought a bonnet British pretty soon, huh. A bonnet British.

I had a glass of water in your honor. You know you know. Toast the new year for you. Oh. So you think I'm a teetotaler? No, I I I wouldn't surmise that but I just felt like making fun of you.

I'm re I'm reformed Baptist so you know you never know exactly where those those strange people fall truly reformed. No, no, I'm not. I did not have any cigars or anything like that around. No. No, no, no.

All right, you. Do you actually had something serious to ask or did you just make this up?

No, no, I had to come up with something serious yesterday in order to like you know you know for the British accent, but I Was listening to your web broadcast. From a couple days ago yesterday. Yes, and I am I've been investigating that Auburn stuff.

And I've called you well in the past about it and besides You know it being very confusing and and things along those lines I think maybe this would help some of your listeners if or you know even if it's from the archives when they hear this.

One of the things that kind of you know I've always felt There was good points, and then there was like what's going on here one of the two things I think kind of helped me figure out that it wasn't you know hot stuff.

First first thing was is it was mainly an attempt. I think the Auburn thing. They're mainly their main concern that drove all this was about assurance. Yes, and when you get into it, and you're thinking well am I keeping the Covenant and But you know how faithful to the Covenant do I have to be and then you start that doesn't really oh but I'm in the Covenant, but I could be kicked out of the Covenant and That doesn't kind of seem to raise my insurance level.

Yeah. Well Look back to your baptism, and I look this and I'm like um that that didn't really raise my insurance.

Well, well let me just explain for those who again are experiencing some level of confusion I don't have any doubt about the fact that that at least the initial Impulse for much of what is said and it comes out clearly in the sermons Is a concern concerning?

It's a pastoral concern and and the the the idea is look Reformed people have a difficulty in regards to how they counsel people as to their Relationship with God because we don't know who the elect are.

They're responding to a reacting against a Puritan Type of concept that says well you examine your life. I'm not sure if that's not what Paul had in mind when he said Examine yourselves to see whether you're in the faith, but but they in essence are responding against that because well look you can always find Something upon which to say well, you know there's sin.

There's continuing sin in that area. There's a lack of submission over here and a person who wants to be introspective and and who loses balance can very easily find a basis for Being concerned on that basis and so.

But as you just pointed out I don't know that they're offering anything meaningful in in response to that in the sense that saying well you're in the Covenant now you have these Covenant obligations and you're entering the Covenant through your baptism and if you're unregenerate and baptized and remain unregenerate then then all you get are the curses of the Covenant and.

But if you become regenerate, then you cannot be separated from the Covenant, and that's the that's the election perspective. I don't like you say I don't see how that somehow in any way shape or form provides any greater basis.

In fact I don't see how it provides as much of a basis as looking back over your life as in first John and Examining your heart and do I have a love for their brethren? Well, you know what I do I think of the people in my congregation.

I think of of the people in my life and I go you know what I can look over the past year and and I can see places where I Gave of myself in the service of the brethren. I that to me is significantly more Assurance enhancing than looking back to and especially in the context the Auburn Avenue Presbyterian Church and action.

I don't even remember.

I don't see how that somehow increases things. Yeah, and the other thing is it was a minor issue I think only brought up by a few speakers or whatnot, but you know they wanted to be able to you know Jesus.

You know love you or Jesus died for you or something like that right? I'm thinking like oh since the Apostles never used that language I.

Wasn't a concern right. Well. Yeah, that came up in the sense of how you evangelize or actually one of the other major elements should you? Evangelize your children. That's the that's the northern Presbyterian southern Presbyterian issue.

That's that's not new. I mean you can go back in history and Find that this is this is not a a new issue as far as at least some of its expressions are concerned. Because you can find arguments between Northern and southern Presbyterians over that very issue to go a long ways back.

Last note before I go to my main question I've actually made a website that has pros cons and neutrals about this issue. Yes, you mind if I copy your blog entry about them. Sure no. Go ahead. Go ahead.

That's fine. All right, I'll put permission James White on it. Sure that's fine. Okay a question about Martin Luther.

When old acid arias, I wonder if they called him dizzy for short. May play keyboard for guns and roses.

When Martin Luther said that the question about predestination Was the main issue with Catholicism actually what he said?

Specifically was that the issue of grace and the will of man was the hinge upon which it all turned. Yes, right. I.

Since there's an element of a strain of tomism and Augustinian ism. Branched out of right. I'm kind of curious. You mentioned earlier about how that? If if we're right about that those issues how that affects the sacrodotal system, right?

And I wasn't really seeing the connection. Well when you think of it along these lines.

The the sacramental system of Rome is the very essence of its worship and its power structure that is the ability to control the Distribution of the grace of God through the sacraments of the church. Which is of course in the control the hierarchy if you're dependent upon those sacraments for God's grace then the church truly becomes your mother in more than one way and the power of the church is extremely enhanced.

And A person what what what makes the sacramental system work? Well a person must choose freely of their libertarian free will to partake of the sacraments to participate in the sacraments. Rome obviously speaks of prevenient grace and and that grace that would that would Lead people to engage in those things.

But fundamentally the final choice is always within the purview of the free will of man. And so the whole concept of a sacramental system where we by our actions avail ourselves the grace of God Would be completely undercut and destroyed if you believed That man's will was enslaved to sin and that grace is supreme over that and that it's in the final analysis It is God who draws his elect people unto himself and that he's the one with the libertarian free will Not the creature himself and so all of man's religions.

I believe anyways I think this is what glues them all together is that man's religion seek to in some way shape or form control God's grace whether it be Whether that term be used that way in in quote-unquote Christian groups using that term and descriptively and not a not as Identification or whether it be in non-christian religions you still have this this structure set up.

Where the the leaders of the religion control their followers? Through a some set of rights and and initiations and and Religious duties and activities and and rites and rituals and so on so forth and as long as God's Ability to save bless guide lead, whatever it is is dependent upon the Individual follower allowing him to do so by choosing to participate in these these activities.

Then you have the the very essence of human religion. And so I think the reason that Ignatius Loyola Instructed his followers to find ways of dealing with this pernicious teaching of the Reformers that it's God who is sovereign and free in the matter of salvation not ma 'am Was because he recognized this very thing the power of the church is in the sacraments and the sacraments require that you have Creatures who have libertarian freedom who can either choose to or not choose to?

Engage in these things and without that the whole system collapses. And so I think that's the the reference that you're referring to. Okay. Thank you very much.

All right. I mean, I've been taking the heart kind of way. I've been dealing with a issue with a different group Recently and I very much see what you've been saying is that You need a consistent apologetic.

Yes, and if you kind of take the reform doctrines out of grace you It really will start affecting all these other apologetic. Yeah, we'll see.

Okay. Thank you. God bless. All right. Yeah, and I want to make sure everyone understands and we'll go ahead and Take our break. It isn't you know my experience may have been that I started with the apologetics and then came to realize the absolute necessity of having the Foundation upon which stamp apologetics is a secondary activity.

What I mean by that is you cannot defend and apologetics is giving a defense. Well the very phrase assumes the existence of something to defend and Specifically that means your theology your positive formation of divine truth.

Precedes your defense of it and obviously determines the form of the defense in any military situation and Giving a defense has military aspects to it, obviously. The formation that you can put your troops in where you can put your troops your artillery everything else is Going to be dependent upon the position you're seeking to defend.

If you're at the top of the hillside on the top of the hill You're going to defend your position differently. Then if you're in a valley, obviously You're going to defend things differently. Well the different theologies that what's strange is most Apologists develop an apologetic without a whole lot of concern about the foundation upon which is built.

They don't see this connection. They don't see that apologetics is secondary that it flows from your theology so obviously differences in theology and I would say one of the most fundamental differences is How you view the gospel how you view the freedom of God and power of God and salvation?

Whether all this is the glory of God or to a You know whether you're a monarchist or a synergist and so on so forth that will greatly impact your apologetic. Look at William Lane Craig's apologetic versus Greg Bonson's apologetic.

The difference is their underlying theology. One was reformed in his in his theology one was One is and continues to be a Molinist a proponent of middle knowledge and a very strong Armenian result. Different way of defending those positions because they're different positions to defend.

And so that's what I was referring to there is you need to have your theology established first. And then your apologetic flows from that eight seven seven seven five three thirty three forty one on the program today so far.

No, John Denver or Barry Manilow however. We have been visiting London every once in a while, and we'll be right back right after this.

Under the guise of tolerance modern culture grants alternative lifestyle status to homosexuality. Even more disturbing. Some within the church attempt to revise and distort Christian teaching on this behavior in Their book.

The same-sex controversy. James White and Jeff Neal write for all who want to better understand the Bible's teaching on the subject explaining and defending the foundational Bible passages that deal with homosexuality including Genesis Leviticus and Romans.

Expanding on these scriptures they refute the revisionist arguments including the claim that Christians today need not adhere to the law in a straightforward and loving manner. They appeal to those caught up in a homosexual lifestyle to repent and to return to God's plan for his people.

The same-sex controversy defending and clarifying the Bible's message about Homosexuality. Get your copy in the bookstore at a omen dot or answering those who claim that only the King James version is the Word of God.

James White in his book the King James only controversy examines allegations that modern translators conspired to corrupt scripture and lead believers away from true Christian faith in a readable and responsible style.

Author James White traces the development of Bible translations old and new and Investigates the differences between new versions and the authorized version of 1611. You can order your copy of James White's book the King James only controversy by going to our website at www .aomen .org.

What is dr. Norman Geisler warning the Christian community about in his book chosen, but free. A new cult secularism false prophecy scenarios. No, dr. Geisler is sounding the alarm about a system of beliefs commonly called Calvinism.

He insists that this belief system is theologically inconsistent Philosophically insufficient and morally repugnant. In his book the potter's freedom. James White replies to dr. Geisler, but the potter's freedom is much more than just a reply.

It is a defense of the very principles upon which the Protestant Reformation was founded. Indeed it is a defense of the very gospel itself in a style that both scholars and laymen alike can appreciate.

James White masterfully counters the evidence against so-called extreme Calvinism defines what the reformed faith actually is and concludes that the gospel preached by the reformers is the very one taught in the pages of Scripture the potter's freedom a Defense of the Reformation.

And a rebuttal to Norman Geisler's chosen. But free you'll find it in the reformed theology section of our bookstore at a omen org.

I freaked everybody out before the program about 15 minutes beforehand. I started Run to the battle by Steve camp. Everybody's like hey. It's 15 minutes early what's going on and for those of you who weren't on the cruise Steve camp sang run to the battle in one of his concerts and then changed the Last line to something about Alpha Omega Ministries crews and stuff like that and freaked us all out.

And it was really cool, but at one point. He want us to yell run to the battle. We demonstrated her on a bunch of Calvinist cuz we all Bumps on a log look at him going are you expecting me to yell? Do something what do you mean?

That's not how we do things? It was really funny, but anyhow it was it was a lot of fun. Eight seven seven seven five three. Three-four-one. Hey if you listen to this program and think Calvinists are like just a bunch of dead boring people.

Then you have no idea what you're doing anyways. And if you looked at our blog and seen our real neat Cartoons. Hey, that's that's that's keep out here. All right. Let's go up to you. Oh, hey, Canada.

Hey, Canada. I don't know how to say that thing. Let's talk to Steven in in Toronto, Canada.

Hey, hey, yeah, you finally got that right? Hey. Hey, it's not.

Hey up into Canada. I just get out as quick as I can because you people scare me. Well I get things are happening here. Well. It's true, but it's just there's this look in the eye. I mean, I mean when I when I was leaving Canada.

Back in September. I mean they they broke open my bag. And they got out my toiletry bag, and they spread everything out on the counter. It was like what might what you know what are you doing here? It was really strange, but anyway.

So and let's talk about Canada a well. We would like you to come up again and visit us. Actually I am and I mentioned this morning. I'm supposed to be up there in September for a Conference and I need to dig out the email it had the details in it.

I Got an email. I don't know about two months ago on it. And so when it was still in my in my queue. Then it was easy to tell people about about where it was, but I forget where it is. No, it's just it's north the border someplace.

You know it also mish-mashes together for us silly Americans, so anyhow we'll be up there eventually. Well first of all.

I want to start off with wishing you a Happy New Year and to you too, sir, and I thank you so much about that. The reason I phoned was listening back to the Bible Answer Man and your debate with Hank and George Bryson was that you sort of touched on the nature of evil and how that is Is Goes back to God, and I was just wondering whether you could elaborate a little bit more about that.

Well. Yeah, it it was unfortunate that.

The powers-that-be decided that the program was going to be. Was going to start at the top and never get back down to how you came to the conclusions if you come to. And maybe maybe that actually reflects the fact that the position of The opposite side doesn't start with scripture it starts with philosophical Considerations concerning the nature of evil and man and so on and so forth and then as we saw does not Deal with the text of scripture very well instead creates its philosophical Questions and when you well in fact this gives me a good good Point to mention this.

I have not yet received a copy of Mr.. Bryson's book. I've ordered it. There were three copies in the studio, and I was not given any one of them and. So when this issue when I was pressing this issue during the second hour you may recall I I again went back to scripture.

Because if we're going to talk about the relationship of God's decree God's intentions man's intentions and God holding men accountable for their actions. Then to me you start with the scriptures you don't start with my philosophical meanderings.

Because you start with what God has said about himself, and so I went to Genesis 50 I went to Isaiah 10. I went to acts 4 if someone would like to suggest to me passages of scripture that more clearly address Those issues God's intentions his decree man's intentions the issue of sin and punishment.

Someone tell me where they are. I'd like to see them. I I am unaware of any those are the three passages that I if I'm gonna list them in order those the top three there. Are others passages where where God hardens the hearts of a nation, so it might be destroyed things like that.

They all come in. But if you don't deal with those three you haven't dealt with three of the clearest passages in scripture on the subject that that's my opinion.

So I seem to get is when debating this issue with anybody who is not Understands the doctrines of grace. It's just a pure emotional type of response as well. How can God do this? Thing and I have yet to hear any good scriptural refutations of the doctrines of grace just so that You know you get somewhat of a balance or understanding exactly where they're coming from from a next from a scriptural standpoint.