Anthony Carter Interview

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Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ based on the theme in Galatians 2 verse 5 where the

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Apostle Paul said, but we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.

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In short, if you like smooth, watered down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you.

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By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her

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King. We're here to take your calls as well. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. My name is

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Mike Abendroth. This is No Compromise Radio Ministry. And every day of the week, we do something a little bit differently.

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Mondays, we play one of my sermons from Bethlehem Bible Church. I think we're in First Corinthians now, verse by verse.

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Tuesday, I meet with my associate pastor and we talk about issues in evangelicalism, specifically in the local church.

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What does the local church look like? What should she watch out for? How should she function? And then on Wednesdays, we talk about books, books that I've read that I want you to read.

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We call those page turners. Our books that I've read that I don't want you to read, and we've figuratively called those book burners.

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And so while we don't want you to literally burn the books, we mean by that books that you shouldn't read. Well, the good news today,

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Wednesdays, we have a book that I want you to read. I was very encouraged as I read it, and I have online, on phone here live, the editor,

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Anthony Carter, with his new book, Glory Road. Anthony, welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. Well, thank you,

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Mike. I appreciate the opportunity to be on with you. Well, let's talk about the book some, Anthony. The subtitle is

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The Journeys of 10 African Americans into Reformed Christianity. Give our audience a little bit of an idea what you were thinking about when you had the book idea.

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Well, the idea actually grew out of a series of events. I do a bit of speaking at conferences and lecturing at churches and things, and so one of the questions that I frequently receive is how did you come into the knowledge of Reformed theology?

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How did you begin to embrace Reformed theology? And I know the curiosity with that is the fact that Reformed theology in a predominantly

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African American setting is not something that people would see a lot of.

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And so I got to thinking that if I was getting that question, surely quite a few of my friends and colleagues were getting the question as well.

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And so I thought that if we had a resource that kind of traced our stories, one, into Christianity in general, and then into the doctrines of grace and Reformed theology in particular, that it would be helpful and encouraging to people to read our stories and be encouraged by the messages of it.

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Well, didn't you say in your book, we understand that we have as much in common with Martin Luther as we do with Martin Luther King Jr.?

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Yes, yes, for truth. And so the point that I was making there is that our first and primary identity needs to be that we are in Christ and that we identify with all those brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the history of the church.

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And that with them, we need to be able to find common ground and know that the faith that we profess is the faith that they profess as well.

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And so while the world would like to make much of our cultural and ethnic identities as Christians, we need to be making much of the fact that we are

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Christ, where we are in Christ, and that is our primary identity. Well, Anthony, I loved it in your afterword when you wrote a short little snippet there, an article called,

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Black Reform, but Foremost Christian. And I think that's what you're driving at. Right. I happen to be white, you happen to be black.

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This is the providential working of a wise God, and we are in Christ Jesus, as Paul would say in Ephesians, and that is how we find our real identity spiritually.

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Yes. Yes, yes, very much so, that is so true. Now, before you were saved,

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Anthony, did you have any issues, or what were your issues with other people who didn't look like you and act like you?

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In other words, for me, I was saved out of a background where my parents were prejudiced, my grandparents were, and therefore

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I didn't just do it because they did, my own sinful nature promoted that as well. But now since God has saved me,

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I see everything much different. Did you experience something like that as well? Yes, actually

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I did. And in fact, a number of the guys in the book will testify to the same thing.

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In fact, Davidi, his chapter in the book talks about it, how he even went and delved into Islam and black

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Muslim movement a bit. For me, I grew up in the late 70s and 80s, on through the 80s.

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And so I identified a lot with the political, the young political black nationalist movements and things like that.

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I found much that resonated in those movements with me, and thus the whole victimology and victimization movements that were going on then.

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And so, yeah, when the Lord saved me, arrested my heart, one of the things that he did was he took my eyes off of being a victim of other people's prejudices and being more a victim of my own sin and a victim of my own waywardness, and that it was the grace of God and the mercy of God that I needed more than anything else.

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Amen. I love how you start the preface. This is a book about ordinary men who have been brought to believe and preach an extraordinary

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God, who has wrought an extraordinary salvation in their lives.

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Amen. And that's exactly that. That's exactly right. When I look at that, I think through my own lenses and say, this is a book about 10 ordinary sinful men, right, who have been saved by an extraordinary holy

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God. And I love the fellowship Christians can have no matter what we look like, no matter how old we are.

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Don't you also notice, Anthony, the kind of a segregation in Christian churches today between 85 -year -olds and 10 -year -olds?

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Indeed. I was just having a discussion with that, with a fellow pastor on this past Sunday, and we were talking about the divide that we even see within our churches.

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And we mentioned the fact that a lot of people like to make much of the racial divide, but I think we need to also consider the generational divide that we have as we are so quick to separate and split up the various ages in our church, and they don't get to learn and to fellowship and commune with the various generations that God has delighted to bring together.

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And what a travesty that is, and what we miss when we don't use the resources that God has put in our communities all across the ages.

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So you're so right. Tell us, Anthony, a little bit about that issue, but from a Reform perspective.

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When we come to understand the sovereignty of God over everything, including salvation, how can that help an average

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Christian see other people as they should be seen, that is, people in Christ?

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Yeah, at the heart of biblical theology is not only the doctrine of God, and that is who

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God is and what God has done and what God requires, but it's also, at the heart of it, is a biblical understanding of humanity, how humanity was created in the image of God, designed and purposed to reflect the glory of God, and yet because of sin, because of the fall, and because of disobedience and the cosmic rebellion that was

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Adam and Eve, that sin has marred that image, and so fundamental to understanding our relationship with God and even our relationship with each other is an understanding that we are sinners born in sin, shaped in iniquity, as the

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Bible says, and until we're able to admit that and realize that, then we're going to think ourselves, at some level, better than other people, whether it's based upon our economic status, our ethnic status, or whatever status we see.

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We will tend to see ourselves, at some level, better than somebody else, but when you understand the biblical doctrine of man and the biblical understanding of sin, then you see that, at the cross, you know, we all stand on the same level ground, and that all have sin, as Paul says in Romans chapter three, and come short of the glory of God, and in that sense, that all means all.

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You know what I mean? Amen. We're talking to the editor of the great Crossway book called

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Glory Road, the Journeys of 10 African Americans into Reformed Theology.

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As you were preaching there for a minute, Anthony, I was thinking, the text tells us that we love

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Him because He first loved us, and so many, you know, Armenians would believe that God loved us because we first loved

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Him, but when we get the idea, the biblical idea, that it is

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God's condescending, distinguishing grace, as S. Lewis Johnson likes to call it, and He loved us, then it's much harder to look at other people the same way.

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For me, coming out of a background from the Midwest and busing in the 60s and 70s and all kinds of horrible attitudes,

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I've been changed now, Anthony, and so I have three daughters and one son, and I tell those daughters, these are my requirements for you to be married, and I will give your hand to that man if he can get through me, but these are the requirements.

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Number one, all right? Number one, he has to be a man. Number two, he always have had to been a man, right?

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Number three, he has to be born again, and number four, he has to be a

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Calvinist. That is, he has to have a high view of the sovereignty of God, because when you have a miscarriage or you have some health issues, financial issues, work issues,

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I want your husband, who will be your leader, to guide you and point you to this sovereign God, and I don't care if this godly man is a

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Presbyterian, a Baptist, black, or white, or Asian. If he's a man saved by God and pointing to this sovereign great

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God, then he can have your hand in marriage. Amen, amen, amen, and I think what you're getting at there is that Reformational teaching and Calvinism is a worldview.

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I think people tend to think of it just in terms of a few doctrines, like predestination and election, but while those doctrines are surely there because they're prevalent in the

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Bible, at the heart of it is just a worldview. It's a whole way of looking at life, that God is sovereign, and he's a good

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God, and he's a gracious God, but he is a sovereign God, and that he is in control of all things, and this, for us, is a comfort.

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This is our only comfort, as the Heidelberg Catechism says, in life and death, that we belong to him.

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You know, we belong to this sovereign God, who we know, according to his word, is working all things out for his glory and our good.

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Anthony, tell us a little bit about the Armenian black community and some of the pastors and some of the leaderships.

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How have they responded to this book about black men who have become Reformed? Well, you know, actually, it's been mostly a positive response.

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The thing about the predominantly African American church in America is that, you know, while it tends toward Arminianism, you know, it is very open and welcoming to a variety of theologies, and I think that's probably its biggest downfall.

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You know, it doesn't mind having Calvinists at the table. It doesn't mind listening to Reformed teachers and preachers.

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The problem is that it opens its mind up to all types of teachers. So you'll get the wider spectrum, and there's very little condemnation of any erroneous theology.

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And so when you go to your, you know, typical African American church, you're liable to hear a wide range of theological positions from week to week.

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Don't you think that overall, at least from my perspective and experience, the

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African American community tends to be very Christian, but the social gospel has crept in there so pervasively.

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Is there any reason for that besides the obvious, you know, sin and bad leadership? And what explains that?

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I think more than anything else, what explains it is the strong emphasis on experience.

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If you go to, you know, your typical African, predominantly African American church, what you're gonna find is a very experiential service.

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And so that experience at most times, particularly in the history of the church, has tended to trump the scriptures and the truth of the scriptures itself.

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And so that the scriptures ultimately get interpreted in light of our own personal experiences.

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So then if our experience this week is we were discriminated against in some manner, then we go to the scriptures and we seek to interpret the scriptures to make the situation come out the way that we think that it ought to come out and would ultimately please

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God. If our situation this week is that we lost our jobs or we lost our homes, you know, then we go to the scriptures and we find scriptures that would tend to speak to that.

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And then that would be the experience out of which we use the scriptures to redeem us, to save us from that.

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And over and over and over again, that scenario gets repeated and repeated.

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And I think that's where the power of the gospel of Jesus Christ is lost on many of these churches, even while there's a lot of experiential religion going on.

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Yes, Anthony, that reminded me of David Wells when he said, when autobiography becomes theology, you're in big trouble.

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Right. That's Christian mysticism. B .B. Warfield said there's two religions, the religion that says there's external truth revealed by God alone, and then there's truth that comes from ourselves.

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But the problem is we're sinful and we're depraved, and therefore that truth is slanted.

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Anthony, tell us a little bit about the appendix. I really like the Reformed Theological Survey at the very end of the book.

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And for our listeners, there are four questions that Anthony asked these men to answer.

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And these were the four questions. What was the first book you read that introduced you to Reformed Theology? Two, besides the

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Bible, list the five most influential books in your Reformed Theological journey. Question three, list three preachers and or teachers who were most influential in your journey.

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And number four in the survey, if you could give one book to someone interested in Reformed Theology, what would you give them?

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I love those questions. Tell us a little bit about that appendix. Well, the idea,

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I'm a professor, not originally mine. Back in the early 90s, I read a book and I have reread it a couple of times since then.

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I'm sure you're familiar with it. It's by R. Kent Hughes, called Disciplines of a Godly Man. Yes. And in the appendix of that book, he had a similar survey, a little more involved, but a similar survey where he asked some evangelical leaders similar questions.

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And I thought that was so helpful when I read that book in getting me to think, you know, about the books that I needed to be reading and have on my bookshelf.

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And I thought that a similar survey would probably be beneficial to those who would read this book, particularly young African -Americans who were interested in Reformed Theology.

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What resources should they get their hands on that would probably or hopefully influence them the same way that influenced the men in these books?

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And so all the guys are gracious. The thing that you'll notice is also the book is dedicated to R .C.

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Sproul, who is a personal friend of mine and I've had the opportunity to work with and for R .C.

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for quite a few years. And we dedicated the book to R .C. because after all the surveys were turned in and after reading all the stories, his name came up twice as much as anyone else.

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You know, the ministry that R .C. Sproul has had over these years has had a huge impact on, you know, countless of people.

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And it was evident in reading the stories of these men and seeing what they, who influenced them and the books that influenced them,

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R .C. were head and shoulders above everybody else. Isn't it interesting as we look through this list, we see names like R .C.

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Sproul, Louis Burkhoff, Mark Dever, John MacArthur. Anthony, here's what

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I wanna ask you. Almost everybody in the back, some of the names I don't know and I imagine some of the preachers of the men here are black, but most of the people in the back of the book are white.

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How long do you think it's gonna be before a sequel comes out to your book where other men, maybe your children or your children's children, will say here are some influential books and a lot of those books will have been written by African -American men?

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Well, I'm hoping that it'll be no later than the next generation.

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One of the reasons why I write and I encourage even the brothers in the books to continue to write is so that my children and my children's children will have resources, not just from R .C.

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Sproul and John Piper and John MacArthur and those guys, which are totally valuable, but also to have resources from guys like us.

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Davidianne Whealy is writing and he's written some excellent resources and some of the other guys,

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Dr. Anthony Bradley is writing as well. And so I'm always encouraging the guys in the book and others to write.

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Let's leave a legacy for those who have gone who will come behind us. Unfortunately, in the history of American Christianity, there isn't a lot of African -American literature,

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Christian African -American literature, particularly from a reform perspective that we have. And there's several reasons for that, but whatever the reasons were in the past,

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I think it is up to us to make sure that we are doing all that we can to leave a legacy in writing for those who will come behind us.

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So I'm hoping that it won't be any later than the next generation that comes along. That would be my hope as well.

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Anthony's also written a book called ''On Being Black and Reformed, A New Look at the African -American

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African -American Christian Experience.'' Give us an overview of that book too, please, Anthony.

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Well, that book was written while it started, the impetus for it was in seminary, while I was in seminary.

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And the question that people would always ask me about is why did I attend Reformed Theological Seminary?

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And even beyond that, you know, how can it, you know, black people just don't embrace Reformed theology, do they?

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And so in thinking about that and seeking to answer those questions, I wrote that book with the hope of showing and demonstrating to people that not only can

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African -American Christians embrace Reformed theology, they should if they are being, you know, consistent and biblical

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Christians. And in fact, the initial generation of African -Americans who were

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Christians were actually Reformed and Calvinistic. And while we have moved away from, as have much of American evangelicalism itself, moved away from its roots of Reformation and Calvinistic roots,

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I think if we're going to go back to what the Scripture says, we'll see that we'll find ourselves once again, believing the same things that our forefathers believed, you know, as a sovereign

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God in sense of humanity and in the sufficiency of the work and the person of Jesus Christ.

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Amen. We just have a few minutes left, Anthony, just a couple odd topics. What's on your iPod? Who do you like to listen to when it comes to preaching the gospel, preaching the

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Bible? Yeah, well, one of my favorite preachers, I've probably listened to more than anyone, is

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St. Clair Ferguson. St. Clair Ferguson is the pastor of First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina.

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He was a professor of mine, and I consider him a friend, and I just love the way that he preaches.

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Even the Scottish accent, I think, helps him a lot. What? I was asked upon my ordination if I could ask anything of the

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Lord to help me in my ministry, what would it be? And I said a Scottish accent. Yes, but I just enjoy also just his insightfulness and his pastoral heart for teaching the scriptures, and so I have quite a bit of St.

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Clair on there. I have some R .C. Sproul, a little

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John Piper. Who else? I listen to the

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Beattie quite a bit, and I think that's about basically it at this point right now.

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Well, I have some of the same men. I love to listen to St. Clair. I'm listening through his Roman series. I don't know if it's Sunday morning or Sunday night, but just rich material.

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I'd encourage all our listeners. Yeah, I think that's Sunday evening. Yeah, I think that's Sunday evening, yeah. Okay. Tell us a story. I've got about two minutes to go.

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Tell me an inside story about R .C. Sproul. That not many people would know about, but we could get to know his godly character as you tell the story.

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Is there any kind of, you know, give me the scoop is what I'm trying to tell you. Well, all

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I know, man, probably what most people don't know about R .C.

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is just how brilliant a man of God that he really is. He has a mind on him that is very sharp.

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One of the stories that people would tell me is that R .C. has the ability to pick up things so quickly.

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And it's not just theological things, but just, I heard a story of him being at Lincoln Valley Study Center when it first got started.

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And they gave, somebody donated a pool table to the Valley Study Center, but nobody knew how to play pool.

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And they said, R .C. got a couple of books read up on pool. And they said, before you know it, he was beating everybody at playing pool.

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He has taught himself how to play the piano. He has taught himself how to paint.

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You know, I've never been in a situation where a conversation of any type, from politics to the art to theology.

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Anthony, I'm gonna interrupt you right now to plug this book, Glory Road, edited by Anthony Carter. Crossway has done a great job, crossway .org,

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or you can pick the book up on our website. Anthony, thank you for the interview today. All right, Mike, man, it's been my pleasure.

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No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston.

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The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.