Anthony Carter Interview

Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, "'But we did not yield in subjection to them "'for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel "'would remain with you.'".

In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn't for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we're called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.

We're here to take your calls as well. Here's our host, Pastor Mike Avendroth.

The Weekly Format of No Compromise Radio

My name is Mike Avendroth. This is No Compromise Radio Ministry, and every day of the week, we do something a little bit differently. Mondays, we play one of my sermons from Bethlehem Bible Church. I think we're in 1 Corinthians now, verse by verse.

Tuesday, I meet with my associate pastor, and we talk about issues in evangelicalism, specifically in the local church. What does the local church look like? What should she watch out for? How should she function?

And then on Wednesdays, we talk about books, books that I've read that I want you to read. We call those page turners. Our books that I've read that I don't want you to read, and we've figuratively called those book burners.

And so while we don't want you to literally burn the books, we mean by that books that you shouldn't read. Well, the good news, today, Wednesdays, we have a book that I want you to read. I was very encouraged as I read it, and I have online, on phone here live, the editor, Anthony Carter, with his new book, Glory Road.

Anthony, welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry.

Well, thank you, Mike. I appreciate the opportunity to be on with you.

The Purpose of Glory Road and Reformed Theology in the Black Church

Well, let's talk about the book some, Anthony. The subtitle is The Journeys of 10 African Americans into Reformed Christianity. Give our audience a little bit of an idea what you were thinking about when you had the book idea.

Well, the idea actually grew out of a series. I do a bit of speaking at conferences. One of the questions that I frequently receive is, you know, how did you come into the knowledge of Reformed theology?

How did you begin to embrace Reformed theology? And I know the curiosity with that is the fact that Reformed theology in a predominantly African American setting is not something that people would see a lot of.

And so I got to thinking that if I was getting, the colleagues were getting the question as well. And so I thought that if we had a resource that kind of traced our story, one, into Christianity in general, and then into the doctrines of grace and Reformed theology in particular, that it would be helpful and encouraging to people to read our stories and be encouraged by the messages of it.

Well, didn't you say in your book, we understand that we have as much in common with Martin Luther as we do with Martin Luther King Jr.?

Yes, yes, for truth. And so the point that I was making there is that our first and primary identity needs to be that we are in Christ and that we identify with all those brothers and sisters in Christ throughout the history of the Church, and that with them, we need to be able to, and know that the faith that we profess, while the world would like to make ethnic identities as Christians, we need to be making much of the fact that we are in Christ, and that is our primary identity.

Well, Anthony, I loved it in your afterword when you wrote a short little snippet there, an article called Black Reform, but Foremost Christian. And I think that's what you're driving at. Right. I happen to be white, you happen to be black.

This is the providential working of a wise God, and we are in Christ Jesus, as Paul would say in Ephesians, and that is how we find our real identity spiritually, correct? Yes. Yes, yes, very much. Now, before you were saved, Anthony, did you have any issues, or what were your issues with other people who didn't look like you and act like you?

In other words, for me, I was saved out of a background where my parents were prejudiced, my grandparents were, and therefore, I didn't just do it because they did, my own sinful nature promoted that as well, but now since God has saved me, I see everything much different.

Did you experience something like that as well?

Sin, Victimhood, and the Grace of God

Yes, actually, I did. And in fact, a number of the guys in the book, Davidi, how he even went and delved into, I identified a lot with the political, the young political black nationalist movements and things like that, I found much that resonated in those movements with me, and thus the whole victimology and victimization movements that were going on then.

So yeah, when the Lord saved me and rested my heart, one of the things that he did was he took a victim of other people's prejudices and being more a victim of my own sin, the grace of God and the mercy of God that I needed more than anything else.

Amen, I love how you start the preface. This is a book about ordinary men who have been brought to believe and preach an extraordinary God who has wrought an extraordinary salvation in their lives. Amen.

And that's exactly that, that's exactly right. When I look at that, I think through my own lenses and say, this is a book about 10 ordinary sinful men, right, who have been saved by an extraordinary holy God.

And I love the fellowship Christians can have no matter what we look like, no matter how old we are. Don't you also notice, Anthony, the kind of a segregation in Christian churches today between 85-year-olds and 10-year-olds?

Indeed, I was just having a discussion with that with a fellow pastor on this past Sunday, and we were talking about the divide that we even see within our churches, and we mentioned the fact that a lot of people like to make much of the racial divide, but I think we need to also consider the generational divide that we have, as we are so quick ages in our church, various generations that God is delighted to bring together, and what a trial we, what we miss when we don't use the resources that God has put.

The Sovereignty of God, the Image of God, and Human Identity

Tell us, Anthony, a little bit about that issue, but from a Reformed perspective. When we come to understand the sovereignty of God over everything, including salvation, how can that help an average Christian see other people as they should be seen, that is, people in Christ?

Yeah, at the heart of biblical theology is not only the doctrine of God, and that is who God is, and what God has done, and what God requires standing of humanity, how humanity was created in the image of God, designed and purposed to reflect the glory of God, and yet, because of disobedience and the cosmic rebellion that was Adam and Eve, that sin has marred that fundamental to understanding God, and even our relationship with each other, is an understanding shaped in, then we're going to think ourselves, at some level, better than other people, whether it's based upon our, see ourselves, but when you understand the biblical, then you see that, you know, we are the glory of God.

Amen. We're talking to the editor of the great Crossway book called, Glory Road, The Journeys of 10 African Americans into Reformed Theology. As you were preaching there for a minute, Anthony, I was thinking, the text tells us that we love Him because He first loved us, and so many, you know, Arminians would believe that God loved us because we first loved Him, but when we get the idea, the biblical idea that it is God's condescending, distinguishing grace, as S. Lewis Johnson likes to call it, and He loved us, then it's much harder to look at other people the same way.

For me, coming out of a background from the Midwest and busing in the 60s and 70s and all kinds of horrible attitudes, I've been changed now, Anthony, and so I have three daughters and one son, and I tell those daughters, these are my requirements for you to be married, and I will give your hand to that man if he can get through me, but these are the requirements.

Number one, all right? Number one, he has to be a man. Number two, he always have had to been a man, all right? Number three, he has to be born again, and number four, he has to be a Calvinist. That is, he has to have a high view of the sovereignty of God, because when you have a miscarriage or you have some health issues, financial issues, work issues, I want your husband, who will be your leader, to guide you and point you to this sovereign God, and I don't care if this godly man is a Presbyterian, a Baptist, black, or white, or Asian.

If he's a man saved by God and pointing to this sovereign great God, then he can have your hand in marriage.

Amen, amen, amen, and I think what you're getting at there is that, you know, to have a worldview, surely there, because they're prevalent in the Bible. At the heart of it is just a whole way of looking at life, that God is a gracious God, but he is a, and that he is in life and death, that we belong to him.

You know, we belong to this sovereign God, who we know, according to his word, is working all things out for his glory and our good.

The African American Church, Experiential Religion, and the Social Gospel

Anthony, tell us a little bit about the Armenian black community and some of the pastors and some of the leaderships. How have they responded to this book about black men who have become reformed?

Well, you know, actually, it has been mostly, the thing about the predominantly African American church in America, you know, while, you know, it is very, these are theologies, and I think that's probably its biggest downfall.

You know, it doesn't mind having Calvinists at the table, it doesn't mind listening to this, that it opens his mind up to all types, the widest spectrum, and there won't, there's very little condemnation of any erroneous theology.

And so when you go to church, you're liable to hear a wide range from week to week.

Don't you think that overall, at least from my perspective and experience, the African American community tends to be very Christian, but the social gospel has crept in there so pervasively. Is there any reason for that besides the obvious, you know, sin and bad leadership?

And what explains that?

I think more than anything else, what a strong emphasis is a very experiential, that experiential of the church and the truth of the scripture that we get interpreted in light of is we were discriminated against to interpret the scriptures to make our, to make the situation the way that we think that it ought to please God.

If I lost our job, are we lost?

Yes, Anthony, that reminded me of David Wells when he said, when autobiography becomes theology, you're in big trouble. Right. That's Christian mysticism. B .B. Warfield said there's two religions, the religion that says there's external truth revealed by God alone, and then there's truth that comes from ourselves.

But the problem is we're sinful and we're depraved, and therefore that truth is slanted. Anthony, tell us a little bit about the appendix. I really like the Reformed Theological Survey at the very end of the book.

And for our listeners, there are four questions that Anthony asked these men to answer. And these were the four questions. What was the first book you read that introduced you to Reformed theology? Two, besides the Bible, list the five most influential books in your Reformed theological journey.

Question three, list three preachers and or teachers who were most influential in your journey. And number four in the survey, if you could give one book to someone interested in Reformed theology, what would you give them?

I love those questions. Tell us a little bit about that appendix.

Books, Reading Lists, and Passing on Reformed Resources

Well, the idea, back in the early 90s, called Disciplines of a Godly Man. Yes. And in the appendix of that book, he had a similar, some evangelical leader. And I thought that was so helpful, you know, about the books that I needed to be read.

This book, particularly young African-Americans who were interested in Reformed, get their hands on, hopefully, influence in these books. Dedicated to, we dedicated the book twice as much as anyone else.

You know, the ministry that R .C.

Isn't it interesting, as we look through this list, we see names like R .C. Sproul, Louis Burkhoff, Mark Dever, John MacArthur. Anthony, here's what I want to ask you. Almost everybody in the back, some of the names I don't know, and I imagine some of the preachers of the men here are black, but most of the people in the back of the book are white.

How long do you think it's going to be before a sequel comes out to your book where other men, maybe your children or your children's children, will say, here are some influential books. And a lot of those books will have been written by African-American men.

Well, I'm hoping that next generation, one of the, continue to write, is so that we'll have resources, not just from our, you know, John Pipes, our, you know, Tabeti and Wheatley is right. And some of the other guys, Dr. Anthony Bradley is writing as well.

And so I'm always encouraging the guys in the book and others to, there isn't a lot of African, and there's several reasons. I think it is up to the legacy in writing then the next generation that comes along.

That would be my hope as well.

Anthony's also written a book called On Being Black and Reformed, a new look at the African-American, African-American Christian experience. Give us an overview of that book too, please, Anthony.

Well, that book was written, started the impetus for it was the question that people would always ask me about is why did I attend Reformed Theological Seminary? And then beyond that, you know, how can it, you know, black people just don't embrace Reformed theology, do they?

And so in thinking about that and seeking to answer those questions, that not only can African, they should if they are being, you know, consistent and biblical initial formed in Calvinism. And while we have moved away from itself Asian and Calvinistic roots, that the same things work in the person of Jesus Christ.

Preaching, Favorite Voices, and R.C. Sproul's Character

Amen, we just have a few minutes left, Anthony, just a couple odd topics. What's on your iPod? Who do you like to listen to when it comes to preaching the gospel, preaching the Bible?

Yeah, well, one of my favorite preachers, I've probably listened to more than anyone is Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina.

Preachers even. I was asked upon my ordination, if I could ask anything of the Lord to help me in my ministry, what would it be? And I said, a Scottish accent.

Yes, but I just enjoy also just his insightfulness and his heart for teaching the scripture. Little John, I think that's... Well, I have some of the same men.

I love to listen to Sinclair. I'm listening through his Roman series. I don't know if it's Sunday morning or Sunday night, but just rich material. I'd encourage all our listeners. I think that's Sunday evening.

Yeah, I think that's Sunday evening. Okay. Tell us a story. I've got about two minutes to go. Tell me an inside story about R .C. Sproul that not many people would know about, but we could get to know his godly character as you tell the story.

Is there any kind of, you know, give me the scoop is what I'm trying to tell you.

Well, all I know, man, probably what most people don't know about R .C. is just how brilliant, he has a mind on him. People would tell me at Ligonier Valley Study Center, they gave, they had a study center, but nobody knew how to play pool.

And they said, R .C. got a couple of books read up on pool. And they said, before you know it, has taught himself how to arch, to theology.

Anthony, I'm gonna interrupt you right now to plug this book, Glory Road, edited by Anthony Carter. Crossway has done a great job, crossway .org, or you can pick the book up on our website. Anthony, thank you for the interview today.

All right, Mike, man, it's been my pleasure.

Closing Credits and Station Disclaimer

No Compromise Radio with Pastor Mike Abendroth is a production of Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. Bethlehem Bible Church is a Bible teaching church firmly committed to unleashing the life transforming power of God's word through verse by verse exposition of the sacred text.

Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 1015 and in the evening at six. We're right on route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch .org or by phone at 508 -835 -3400.

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