The Power Worshippers Review

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:11

Welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I'm your host John Harris We are going to talk about a book today by Catherine Stewart called the power worshipers

00:19

It is actually a book that it has been made into a documentary that is going to be coming out soon called

00:26

God and country about Christian nationalism and there's a number of people who claim to even be

00:31

Evangelical like David French and Russell Moore and Jamar Tisby and Kristen Dumez who are actually part of that Documentary and we played the trailer a few weeks ago on this podcast and Really concluded that they were carrying the water of people who just hate

00:46

Christians who hate Christianity don't want it to have any influence in the country at least any political influence or social influence and and so The question has been why would people who claim to be

01:01

Christians be part of that? And I think the answer is probably fairly simple and maybe it's our cynical side that wants to say it but after years of observing this, you know, the people who are part of that who claim to be

01:11

Christians are Doing it because they want to ingratiate themselves to the world

01:17

They want people in the world to like them to think well of them and they want to throw under the bus the people that they supposedly represent and It's a sad thing and it's a story that we've seen over and over and over and I don't want to lament that right now but just Jogging everyone's memory for those who listen to the podcast.

01:36

We've already talked about this some but I Wanted to get into the book I don't know if I knew at the time when

01:43

I recorded that podcast reacting to the God and country trailer that it was based off of this book by Stewart and when

01:52

I read the book and I've actually I've listened on to the book on audible twice and then I downloaded the Kindle and Kind of went through that and so I I'm pretty familiar with what she's saying

02:03

It just strikes me as an anti -christian diatribe, that's really what the book is and Of course, you know

02:11

She may object to that and in fact the people who are promoting the documentary may even object to that and say well They're not really against Christianity Just a certain type of Christianity a

02:19

Christianity that Wants to have influence and actually believes the things the Bible says and that's really what they're against So it's

02:26

I think for this audience most of you understand that's just true Christianity the Christianity that actually believes what the

02:32

Bible says and wants to and sees biblical law sees Sees an influence of Christianity on society at large is a good thing

02:43

That's just what Christians have always been doing but that's viewed now as the exception.

02:48

That's the freak. That's the ignorant hillbilly racist redneck You know, whatever negative characteristic they throw and slap on two

02:57

Christians. It's all of that they try to tuck it away into some remote corner of the rural

03:03

South or something and And then say we need to just keep condemning it because it's such a threat but what they're really doing is they are condemning what

03:12

Christians have always stood for and believed and that's Part of the concern that I have and the reason I wanted to do this podcast

03:17

So I just want to review this book and really this serves as coming attractions

03:22

This gives you an insight into the documentary because it's what the documentary is based on. So This is a very

03:30

This is a book that has sold a lot of copies. It's popular and It is something that we should probably know about now before we get into all that I just want to let you know about the sponsor for this particular podcast screen at first calm screen it first calm great website

03:46

You can go there if you're a parent and you can report on issues in books that your children are reading so if it's got foul language or if it's got some explicit content or It exemplifies lying and stealing as positive goods.

04:01

You can go to this website and you can Find the book by ISBN number or title or author and then you can go ahead and screenshot on your phone the picture of that page post the page to the website with the the issue categorized and other parents can then

04:18

See your work so they don't have to read these entire books that their kids are reading and so often I've said this before people think parents think if my kids are reading books, that's good if they're watching television

04:29

I got to be careful, but the reading books thing that we just want them to read and so often The reading is actually it can be a problem

04:37

If they're reading books that actually undermine the faith that you are trying to instill in them

04:43

Then how is that any different than watching a film? So Screen at first comm will give you a great resource on this and if you just want to help them screen books you can click on the help screen books tab and it'll bring to you a list of popular books that they are in the middle of Trying to get reviewed for people like here's a book called the secret of the mansion in the

05:04

Trixie Belden series and no one's screened it yet, so you can screen it and You can put information out there that's gonna help other parents screen it first comm.

05:14

It's a great idea and one of the People who listens to this particular podcast?

05:20

Who's a Christian who is a small business owner wanted to put this out there for you and they have kids

05:27

So I mean it's something that's personal to them. And so by using it. You're also supporting a good cause and there's no charge

05:33

It's just it's free. And so I would just encourage you to use that All right. Well, let's get into this.

05:40

I Have a slideshow that I've that I made. I actually I made it on the plane when I was coming back from,

05:46

California My for those I haven't really shared so I should probably just share briefly for those who've been praying

05:53

I just really want to say how much I appreciate you Yeah, it's been difficult. My grandfather died on January 1st.

06:00

I flew out there, but I kind of missed by a day I missed saying goodbye to him in person and and so it's been over a month now since I talked to him last

06:10

I talked to him on Christmas and So so we flew out and it was just a perfect day

06:15

We had clouds the day after the day before it was raining and we just had the most perfect beautiful day for a graveside funeral we had actually the military the army came by played taps and Thanks my grandmother for his service in World War two and so just a special time and I just want to thank everyone for Praying for the family.

06:37

So but when I was on the plane coming back I started collecting my thoughts on this because I had been reviewing it and And so I put

06:46

I tried to break them down into just some some general things and I put them into this particular slideshow, so For those who are patrons you have access to this patreon .com

06:57

forward slash, I believe it's worldview conversation I'll try to remember to put the link in the info section if people want to support this podcast

07:03

But that's where you can find this to download if you want to download it. So here's my summary

07:09

This is these are my words Summary of the book the power worshipers by Catherine Stewart claims to give people and insiders look into the

07:15

Christian nationalist movement throughout First through firsthand accounts around the country expert testimony and extensive research

07:23

Stewart gives her overall impressions concluding that Christian nationalism is very dangerous and threatens our way of life

07:29

She exposes what she believes is dark money government favor and Sophisticated networking that gives

07:35

Christian nationalists an edge on the culture war The book reads as a warning to modern Americans who care about the pluralistic democracy that is the

07:43

United States and so what you really find in this book is a person who is very concerned about the influence of Christianity and There's some personal reasons for that.

07:52

I believe she talks about there's two two areas. You see this in the book She talks about an older couple from another town who attempted to set up and lead a

08:00

Bible study or a Bible Club They called it at her daughter's public elementary school in Southern, California in 2009 and the purpose of the club was to convince children as young as five

08:10

That they would burn for an eternity if they failed to conform to a strict interpretation of the

08:15

Christian faith now I'm gonna stop right there This is her quote and ask you if you think that that is true so the people promoting the club probably believed that if you died in your sins without repenting and putting your trust in Christ and Assuming they believe in an age of accountability before the age of accountability

08:35

You suffered everlasting punishment for that in in a place called hell, but I don't have a problem

08:43

Believing that that's not a stretch But to say the purpose of the club was to convince children of this

08:48

That they would burn if they fail to conform to a strict interpretation of the Christian faith That gives you everything you really need to know about this book of course a club like that would say that their purpose is to preach the message of Jesus the love of Jesus to convince children and to help children overcome struggles in their lives and Not just their lives but the judgment to come by trusting in Jesus Christ It wouldn't be if you don't if you don't dare conform to a strict interpretation of the

09:21

Christian faith Then you will burn in hell. That's I that that is a cartoon and most of the book.

09:27

Unfortunately is a cartoon it's it struck me as someone who's very paranoid and They're just I don't know

09:37

Take takes things about three steps farther than they actually are in her mind and is she's afraid she's afraid

09:45

So I haven't even gotten deep into this review and you can already just tell this is the kind of language that you're gonna find

09:51

In this book and this is that this is the interesting thing to me that Russell Moore and David French and all those guys You know, they decided that this is like the message they want to be part of They want to be part of a documentary based on this book

10:02

That's pretty crazy because they should be seeing the holes in this and be concerned But yet they're joining in So anyway

10:09

They meaning the club Insisted on holding the club in the public school because they knew the kids would think the message was coming from the school now

10:15

That's an assumption on her part, of course She doesn't have a quote for this

10:20

But it's you know, that's why they were holding it at the school because they wanted to confuse the kids They referred to our public school as their mission field and she's put that in quotes and our children as quote the harvest and she's trying to make them sound as creepy as she possibly can and For those who know

10:36

Christian insider lingo, you can roll your eyes at this But if you don't know that if you're new to Christianity If you don't haven't been exposed to much of it and you're reading this book, you'll probably believe it.

10:46

That's the dangerous thing about this I thought their plan was outrageously inappropriate in our religiously diverse public school and she then says she discovered that there there were many other of these good news clubs across the country in public schools and she realized that these initiatives were the fruit of A nationally coordinated effort not merely to convert other people's children in the classroom, but to undermine public education altogether

11:07

So then I told you she goes three steps farther. They're just trying to undermine public education. That's what they're trying to do here that's the real secret agenda now that that's gonna strike for a

11:19

Normal suburban mom. This is gonna be scary Because they rely on the public school

11:24

They that's an institution that they're involved with and their kids are involved with and they're trying to undermine it

11:31

It was a piece she says with their planned to destroy the confidence in our system of education and to make a way for the system of religious education more to their liking now

11:38

All this is predicated on the fact that in her daughter's public elementary school. There was a Bible study

11:43

That's basically what this amounts to there was a Bible study set up as in like an after -school or a you know optional thing really not even something that was mandated but an optional thing at this this good news club and and and that has

11:58

Spurred her into the existence of this club Thinking that there's this nefarious attempt to undermine the public education system and to try to convince kids to scare kids as young as What you say five years old or something that they're going to hell if unless they adopt a very narrow strict interpretation of Christianity So that's number one number two.

12:22

She says this in the book. She says in the last days of December 2003 I was 13 weeks pregnant and filled with joy at the prospect of having a second child

12:29

Then one afternoon I began to bleed heavily the ambulance took me to st Vince's Hospital a Catholic fact facility and I know now that what

12:37

I needed was a DNC an abortion procedure to remove tissue from the uterus which To kill a baby.

12:44

Okay to remove a baby of tissue She's saying but and I needed it immediately to to stop the bleeding

12:51

I later learned that I lost nearly 40 % of my blood only then did the hospital provide me with the abortion that saved my life

12:57

I found no explanation for the delay in treatment in retrospect given what I know now about the ethical and religious directives my best guess is that the hospital is willing to gamble with my life

13:06

For the sake of preserving a child that was at that point nothing more than a fiction of their imagination So what you have here is a bunch of assumptions

13:14

She doesn't know she's just assuming that The reason she did not get treatment quickly is because the hospital

13:22

Did not want to abort this child in order to save her life and it's a Catholic facility

13:27

Now the interesting thing is she actually got the procedure. So So so if it was a prohibition if the

13:34

Catholics, you know, really just didn't want to give an abortion they ended up doing it anyway, and and she lived and And I don't know

13:43

I don't know enough about this situation to know what was going on, you know Was this was this a topic what was going on here that you know cause this was the was the child already?

13:53

Dead was what was this? I don't know But what I do know is there's a whole bunch of assumptions here and there's an axe to grind

14:00

She is finding the culprit and the culprit isn't that people were busy that day the culprit isn't that things were backed up and That there was incompetent people at the hospital the culprit has to be it's those

14:14

Christians and So these are the kind these are the little glimpses you get into her personally.

14:19

She's got a personal bitterness against Christianity She blames it for her almost death And she also blames it for an attempt to indoctrinate as she calls it her child so it's with this in mind that we go go off on our journey of Exposing the

14:37

Christian nationals movement supposedly So the birth of Christian nationalism, she talks about this on page 63 that the religious right in 1979.

14:45

She says had a problem and They needed to build a new movement around the issue of defense They couldn't build a new movement around the issue of tax advantages of racist schools

14:54

So they they they couldn't use the segregation movement to their advantage. So instead they basically chose that they were going to use abortion and And And so this was a political strategy

15:06

That's what she says in the book that this was so there's a very cynical kind of reading that these Christians don't really believe this stuff as much as they do see it as an opportunity that you can really manipulate people's emotions by telling them abortions wrong and using that to politically gain power and What they really though wanted and if if that if things were different, they would just use racism, you know, they would just say

15:30

We need to have all -white schools or something or we should That's really the motive and you know,

15:37

I've read this so many times. This is such a very common common misconception about the religious right and And there's some reasons for it.

15:48

I think one of them is that you have people like Jerry Falwell not really taking a strong stand on abortion till Like seven years after the

15:58

Roe v. Wade decision something like that You have even people in the Southern Baptist Convention there

16:04

I forget what they call it, but there's their equivalent of the URLC their ethics arm. They basically saying well, you know, there's

16:11

There are conditions in which maybe an abortions acceptable. I mean and You know, one of the things

16:16

I tell people about this is that it was It was a new thing when it happened.

16:22

It was something that a Lot of working -class people are like this on a lot of things to be quite honest with you.

16:28

They're going about their lives They're living their lives and then their rulers make decisions on things, you know, for example

16:35

Think about the same -sex marriage debates, right? This was happening before it was Legalized but there was a lot of people who just said whatever just can't can't we just let people who want to get married get

16:46

Married, it's not gonna affect my life. Now you fast -forward. We're talking about transgender sports and people are now realizing.

16:52

Oh, no What have we done, you know, we took a wrong turn somewhere and Sometimes there's a delayed effect, you know, we should have been talking about transgender sports ten years ago really but there's a delayed effect

17:06

And it's not until it becomes a problem in your life that it affects you personally That you start caring and that's really what one of the things at least

17:15

I think that happened with the abortion issue it was something that was

17:21

Somewhat rare it or at least it wasn't talked about openly in public that much there is a shame attached to it and When it starts becoming mainstreamed and when people start realizing what's happening

17:36

That's when you know when you have like a family member that has this done. That's when you start realizing man I need to get involved and And so, you know that that is a

17:45

I don't know why that is not a legitimate Interpretation of why there was a delay because you don't see the evangelicals really mobilizing on other issues

17:55

The leftists try to make it sound like they were mobilizing behind Bob Jones and that this was a racist motivation

18:01

They wanted to keep the government from regulating things like it wasn't just this but things like Maintaining certain racial makeups in schools and the reality was there were evangelicals concerned about that, but they were concerned

18:15

More because they just didn't want the national government telling private schools what to do

18:21

Because if they can tell them what to do in this one area, why not other areas, right? It just gives them unlimited access and control so They'll take that and they'll whittle the whole issue down to it is really just about one thing

18:33

They just hate minorities and but it wasn't even that issue did not resonate with people like the issue of abortion did in the 1980s and So so she gives a very typical understanding of this and You know tries to make it out like well, like even she says school prayer worked for some they could use that as a rallying

18:54

Point, but it alienated Catholics and they needed the Catholics So they had to use abortion and it's like man if you were around even in the 90s

19:01

I was around for that, you know the religious right of the 90s They were talking about school prayer every at every turn school prayer was blamed probably over blamed

19:09

Honestly, they say we took God out of the schools when we took prayer out and then we got all these problems and And so she writes she's trying to say she's an insider but to be quite honest with you

19:18

I don't know how inside she actually is I think a lot of this is She went to a few events that were more recent and then she read a whole bunch of leftists on this topic

19:26

That's that would be my impression after reading a book like this. She does not come across as someone who's actually an insider at all now the roots of Christian nationalism

19:36

The identification of religious authority she says with the perpetuation of the institution of slavery Reflected something far more important than mere added

19:44

Adaptation to the largest concentration of economic power in the nation Although it was that too at a deeper level

19:49

It was part of a counter -revolutionary response to the perceived liberal and a religious excesses associated with the

19:55

American Revolution So then she tries to prove this to go to say the

20:00

American Revolution was this low point for religious fundamentalists? She quotes this letter from to dr.

20:07

Benjamin Waterhouse from Thomas Jefferson and He and it's a prediction that all

20:13

Americans would shortly convert to Unitarianism and Thomas Paine went even further Suggesting they would abandon all traditional religions in favor of pure deism

20:19

So she cherry -picks these historical things and says those two like Thomas Paine is a radical example

20:25

Of course Thomas Paine, you know is not not he writes common sense but he goes off the rails after that and joins in with supporting the

20:33

French Revolution and There is some thought by the way that before his death though He saw some of the errors of his ways, but I you know

20:39

I don't know that don't quote me on that. But Thomas Paine was a radical and you know, Thomas Jefferson I didn't look into this quote specifically, but it wouldn't shock me if Thomas Jefferson saw a trend toward Unitarianism in some

20:54

In certain fact in certain circles, but certainly Thomas Jefferson himself Was involved in financing a very conservative religious efforts he actually financed a

21:07

Calvinistic Church in Charlottesville and he was friends really close friends with the pastor who pastored it who lived in Forest Virginia where he had his second house and they used to spend a lot of the time together

21:20

It was Charles Clay and Thomas Jefferson himself would not have been in favor of casting all religion aside or anything like that but she tries to take these examples to then make a statement to make a generalization that the

21:33

American Revolution was this Godless almost atheistic time period and that's just simply not the case

21:40

For anyone who studied this issue in any kind of depth You'll know that the clergy played a great role in Getting the

21:49

Americans on board. It was called the Black Robe Regiment by people in other parts of the world like it

21:54

Well in Great Britain, some of them called it the Presbyterian Revolt because of it but you had the fact that a lot of historians will point to this the fact that the the first Great Awakening gave the

22:05

Colonies a sense of togetherness that they would not have had otherwise and and some even will say that they don't think that would have been possible without the

22:13

Great Awakening You have the fact that the Bible by far is more quoted in the

22:19

Constitutional Convention than any other document that's includes lock that includes Blackstone because it's it's the

22:25

Bible and The illustrations they use the symbolism they use it's all biblical

22:32

It's it's maybe there's some Greek Roman stuff too that makes its way in but there's so much of it I should say not all but there's so much of it.

22:37

That's biblical And so to say that this was like this low point for religious fundamentalism is absurd.

22:43

You had nine of the thirteen colonies at the time Had official state religions and the ones that didn't were if you read their

22:53

Constitutions or royal charters, they were pretty Procreate would not just religious but pro -christian

23:00

So, you know much more could be said but It's I wrote an article actually not long ago for American reformer

23:06

On the Satan statue issue and I go into a lot of this and it just completely refutes her position on this.

23:12

So So it's it's slavery apparently She tries to link that Christian nationalism starts with with defending and the perpetuation of slavery or wanting the perpetuation of slavery

23:24

Somewhat as a way I guess to combat the irreligious founding very interesting there and and she says among apologists for Christian nationalism today the the favorite myth is that the movement represents the extension of abolitionism but she says that The truth is today's

23:42

Christian nationalism did not emerge out of the religious movement that opposed such rigid hierarchies It came from one that promoted them with the

23:48

Bible in one hand and the whip in the other So, you know, of course this this is just bombastic outrageous language that even if let's say that the

23:57

Christian Nationalists supported slavery Yeah, are they gonna there's they're supporting it with a Bible in one hand and the whip in the other

24:03

That's where you get the cartoon, right? And so that's why I put that image there I wanted the you know, this is the cartoonish kind of Retelling of Christian nationalism.

24:11

It's just about suppressing people of other races and women and Homosexuals and it's just for white

24:18

Christian men. That's what it is. It's it's a critical theory way of understanding this It's Christianity's just this tool for white men to or at least

24:26

Christian nationalism to exert influence and power over everyone else Now I think this story is undercut.

24:32

Okay, it's undercut by today's emphasis on racial unity Which she admits in two places in the book She talks about being at a values voters summit in 2018 and Bishop Larry Jackson spoke in somewhat plaintive tones about the power of affecting change through racial unity.

24:45

She also talks at another point about an individual in California who she's you know scared about he's a he's very influential, but he's

24:54

Hispanic and She says it helps Him him speaking helps the

25:01

Christian nationalist movement in California inoculate itself against the charges of racism in the past and in the present someone named Doman so, you know, here you go like it's so racist but yet they're platforming people who are black who are

25:13

Hispanic or Latino who are who are bringing a message of racial unity and of course, that's just discounted as That's not the roots.

25:23

That's not really that's not the story so You have to be cynical and think that they're trying to cover something right and that's where she ends up It's also that this story is undercut by the religious fervor present at the founding which

25:36

I mentioned already a bunch of those things And then the concern over the evils associated with slavery. So she likes to lean on Robert Louis Dabney and and Rush Dooney quite a bit and and tries to put them as the kind of founding fathers of Christian nationalism and Dabney has a book called the defense of Virginia in the

25:56

South and In that book, you know, he sees defends the

26:01

Confederate or Southern position He's actually Stonewall Jackson's chief of staff and he wrote a biography of Stonewall Jackson, but he was a brilliant theological

26:10

Professor and he had a brilliant theological mind and Dabney though If you read him closely, he calls slave the slave trade in iniquitous traffic.

26:18

He supported biblical regulations on slavery He was not one of these people that defended slavery in the abstract as a moral good, you know throughout time and place

26:29

He was more If you really want to understand what he's trying to say, it's really more of an anti fanatical abolitionism that would irresponsibly try to end slavery without compensation or integration just Ended and and of course the problems associated with that economically and socially have been with us ever since But and Dabney was against that You find in Dabney too

26:52

I mean he emphasizes how Virginia was foremost in trying to suppress the slave trade and if it wasn't for Some of the abolitionists literature in the postal crisis, you know

27:02

They may have actually banned the practice and he talks about these kinds of things She I don't think she even is aware to be quite honest

27:08

I think she probably read something Dabney's evil and loved slavery and I'm just gonna you know

27:14

Make it about Dabney and of course Doug Wilson likes Dabney. So Wilson's prominent in Christian nationalism.

27:19

So there you go Rush Juni's another one now and here's the thing Rush Juni acknowledged where chattel slavery fell short and he opposed civil slavery and this is one of the things

27:27

That I don't think she she either understands or wanted to communicate but you find in Dabney this the sense of this as well both of these guys talk about unjust hierarchies they talk about concern over state imposed slavery civil slavery not chattel slavery, but civil slavery that was coming and That you know, this would not be known as slavery or labeled as slavery

27:49

But it would effectively Make everyone into a number and that's where we are today They were actually

27:56

Rush Juni and Ben Dabney were both Despite the fact that we would probably disagree with them on some things

28:03

They they actually had their finger on the pulse of some things accurately and they predicted some things

28:08

So I would not make them the center pin though of everything Christian nationalist In fact,

28:14

I would even if you really want to do abroad. Here's what? Christian political involvement is you're gonna have to talk about people like William Wilberforce.

28:21

You're gonna have to And if you just want to limit it to America, I suppose I mean you're gonna have to talk about people like Billy Graham You're gonna have to talk about some pretty respected mainstream type

28:31

Christians Even in today's mindset some of these guys were mainstream, you know years ago, but now they're not so much because they've been vilified but even guys who haven't been vilified as much are gonna have to be part of the story and she she wants to try to her whole goal is to try to find the people that can be used as Well, the figures that can be vilified the most to them portray.

28:54

The whole movement is terrible and of course to her Christian nationalism is really just Christian political involvement trying to exert

29:03

Christian influence and power in politics and we'll talk about that a little more but The other thing

29:09

I wanted to mention here is that you know, would she accept I wonder would

29:14

Catherine accept the idea that progressivism and the liberalism that she so defends having its roots in phrenology meaning the measuring of skulls to find out the social or the mental capacity in different races

29:29

Or Darwinism or eugenics or abortion as like the no, these are the the founding things

29:35

These are the important things to put at the center of the story of progressivism. I don't think she would And yet, you know some of these things like phrenology these are being opposed by You know southern pastors that she hates

29:47

And so it's it is an incomplete story. It is a cartoon story the whole thing's a cartoon whole thing's really just a cartoon

29:54

All right. So here are the stories that she brings up or the the problems that she brings up with Christian nationalism and I want to talk about these so Catherine Stewart starts off with it undermines the liberal order

30:11

And I have a bunch of quotes on this. I don't know if I'm gonna talk about all of them, but She says perhaps the most salient impediment to our understanding of the movement is the notion that Christian nationalism is a conservative ideology

30:21

The correct word is radical a genuinely conservative movement would seek to preserve institutions of value that have been crafted over centuries of American history

30:28

It would prize the integrity of electoral politics the legitimacy of the judiciary the importance of public education and the values of tolerance

30:34

And mutual respect that have sustained our pluralistic society even as others have been torn apart by sectarian conflict

30:41

Christian nationalism pretends to work towards the revival of traditional values its values contradict the long -established principles and norms of our democracy

30:48

It is no interest in securing the legitimacy of the Supreme Court It will happily steal seats and pack the court as long as it gets the rulings

30:55

It wants it cheers along voter suppression and gerrymandering schemes that allow Republicans to maintain disproportionate legislative control

31:02

It collaborates with international leaders who seek to undermine the United States traditional alliances in the post -war world order

31:08

Let me read that again the post -war world order built upon the past seven decades and it claims to defend the family

31:14

But treat so many American families with contempt, of course, you know non -traditional things that you know units that are called families by the left like same -sex marriages and so forth, so This is her beef

31:27

You might sense a lot of projection in that like I'm thinking these are like a lot of the complaints that conservatives have about the left

31:34

But you know, she seems to think these are the the dirty tricks that Christian nationalists want to do They are seeking to undermine the

31:40

Supreme Court by packing the court and these kinds of things So it's okay when when we do it, but not okay when you do it.

31:47

So It's it undermines democracy undermines Republican our electoral politics, you know

31:54

Calls into question the legitimacy of elections and these kinds of things and and that's the the danger and that's why it's not conservative

32:01

So because it undermines the liberal order. It doesn't conserve these great things that we have And so, you know, that's that's problem one and I would encourage anyone concerned, you know

32:10

Who wants to know more about this go watch the series I did on liberalism With a time incline and Ben Crenshaw and you'll understand more what she's talking about here

32:19

The truth is that Christians who are politically involved who see that we're not a moral country anymore who see the flaws in having an ungodly people try to work within these systems that presume a level of honesty that You know, they are going to perhaps look for things that have been unconventional for quite some time

32:37

They're gonna look at secession and nullification and perhaps even authoritarian Schemes in order to try to preserve a semblance of morality that that is the case

32:48

It doesn't mean that they've been very successful in that and that doesn't mean there's many that do that and the thing for Catherine Stewart is She thinks that this is so broad, right?

32:55

So she's not even talking about those people She's talking about just people who want to lobby in DC For their cause very mainstream

33:02

Christian organizations like focus on the family These are the kinds of people that she's concerned about and really for them.

33:09

It's just a straw man it's They're not doing that But that's what she thinks they're just not committed sufficiently to the liberal order because she's following a religion though she does not realize it

33:22

Real liberalism the and the liberal order has a very religious Kind of feel to it.

33:29

You you have to have a you have to pinch the incense to Caesar and and that means supporting democracy

33:35

And I remember when the January 6 thing happened. Remember Nancy Pelosi said they've desecrated our temple of democracy, right?

33:42

so there's you you take even religious language and apply it to these supposedly secular things, but Nature pours a vacuum people are gonna be religious.

33:53

They're gonna worship something and so you end up deifying people Figures from history like Martin Luther King jr.

33:59

Right that becomes the new Christ figure and so she's part of a religion She just doesn't realize it and she wants her religion to be taxpayer funded

34:06

She wants the secular humanist agenda if you want to call it that or just the liberal order The great the

34:11

Great American Empire She wants that stuff funded by our tax dollars, but not

34:16

Christian so She also says it seems to sadly fit that so many of the self -appointed patriots of America's Christian nationals movement should have found themselves

34:26

Working with foreign powers. So she's on about Putin there It's a movement that never accepted the promise of America All right

34:32

So apparently Christians never accepted that they never believed that a Republic could be founded on a universal ideal of equality not on a particular creed or that it might seek out reasoned answers to humanities challenges rather than enforceable dogmas and Never subscribed to the nation's original motto e pluribus unum that out of the many we could become one from the beginning

34:51

Its aim was to redeem the nation by crushing the plural pluralistic heart of the country Now here's the thing e pluribus unum right out of the many one

34:59

Yeah out of the many states that were pretty much all from an Anglo Protestant background Right out of the many one

35:06

You know incorporating now Roman Catholics from Southern Europe and did you have the broad swath that you have today?

35:14

With the founders have thought that was sustainable. I don't think so It's not the same thing It's apples and oranges trying to compare that but she wants to make that that's the heart of the country and these these

35:22

Christian Nationals are the freaks they never actually supported our country because that's what our country is about She's never accepted the promise of America.

35:30

And what is the promise of America? Well, it's this creedal nation. It's this universal principles you can be part of it if you just believe in equality and It's you can be an

35:40

American and live in Saudi Arabia, I guess right because it doesn't matter where you live It just matters if you believe in something very broad like equality

35:46

That if they're the promise of America if that's what it is, it just under there is no promise of America It's not unique to America.

35:53

It just universalizes everything so So anyway, it's really it's the opposite of this

36:00

America is an Anglo Protestant country. The founders understood this George Washington wrote about it in his farewell address and this is what keeps

36:08

America has kept Americans together for quite some time until very recently and things are pulling apart and so These some of these mottos and stuff they fit in with that there.

36:18

They don't contradict that So the movement does not speak she says for a majority is a militant minority

36:25

So she tries to say that look you guys are just a minority It's 26 % of the voting age population

36:34

It's you know It's just not Not a big portion of people and to that I say well, you know, how many people are homosexual?

36:43

right, not many and For years. I mean they were in this minority and yet they gained power over time and convinced the rest of the country that they should be supported in that kind of thing at least enough people to support the legalization of wedding ceremonies that they wanted to participate in so It's it's not this doesn't disqualify them.

37:05

Why if even if they're a minority, why can't they use whatever influence? They have to try to convince others of their position. Why how come it's just Christians that why is this a cut against them?

37:14

You know, that should be You know, hey there that maybe that's something to admire if that's true, right?

37:21

Now the reality is she she paints so wide in that. I don't know if I buy this I think it's probably a whole lot more people than she realizes if it's just you know

37:29

If the standard is people who want a Christian Influence in their society then it's gonna be more than that So I but she's very in my opinion sloppy in the book and she doesn't she's not defining exactly what she's talking about Other than this vague kind of scary

37:45

Christians who want to exert their power and authority and that's what it is Problem two it's funded by special interests.

37:52

Now. This one's kind of laughable to me she she talks about how

37:58

There's a crisis of the American political party system that's at the juncture of money and religion and that it's

38:07

That there's this network the DeVos Prince clan the Bradley Foundation Howlin, Amundsen jr.

38:14

The foundations for the late Richard Scaife the James and she goes on The Green family, there's all these organizations and they're funding things like the

38:25

Museum of the Bible and It's dark she even calls it right -wing dark money that targets the courts

38:32

Now the reason I find this so laughable is I showed it on the podcast a while ago. It was this chart of Giving you know how different People in different fields in the

38:43

United States who they give to liberals or conservatives it's overwhelmingly left Overwhelmingly the money the left has is oh, it is not even close.

38:52

It's just and they have all the institutes They have Hollywood. They have the Academy they have The political advantage they have they have just about everything

39:02

Education they they just They even are getting our churches now and yet she wants to make out like there's this nefarious dark right -wing conspiracy with all these these like family foundations and so forth to undermine democracy and So this is again why if it's good for you guys how if you guys can have the

39:28

Ford Foundation and Just everything else, you know, like like it's like why can't we have you know, maybe one two, three, four five percent?

39:37

Why is that not possible? the only thing that would satisfy someone like Catherine Stewart is if Christians had no money no influence and Never exerted authority or control over anything

39:46

I mean, that's what you have to get from this because as soon as someone gives money towards Yeah, you know,

39:52

I think I believe in that candidate then they are somehow now being funded by special interests. It's laughable

39:57

Problem three twisting Christianity So she says here the anxieties over shifting gender roles and the resentments over fading economic privilege are transmuted into personal salvation and political gold

40:06

Setting aside the big money the key to hard right -wing Republican power in this state is an army of volunteer activists

40:12

People with the time and energy to camp. So anyway, she says that These right -wing activists who go out and try to get people to vote

40:20

Are they have anxiety over shifting gender roles and resentment over economic privilege? That's but but what the language they use is about personal salvation

40:30

Now that's another laughable thing to me that so so they're trying to get people saved But really underneath all of it is they just don't want shifting gender roles.

40:38

They want the men to be in charge so again, it's just you don't even have to refute these because it's just It's just something made up in her head she's just saying this stuff hoping it'll stick

40:49

She thinks that they're exploited by the Trump administration Watchmen on the wall a right -wing Christian organization continues to gain favor with the

40:57

Trump Pence administration and allied politicians She wrote this during their administration One political party endorses ultra conservative varieties of religion and is exploiting them to lock in power

41:06

This is how the Christian nationals movement works. So if you think Christianity is okay

41:13

You should be very wary the Christian nationalist movement though, because it's it's something different It's something left -wing

41:18

Christianity is okay but right -wing Christianity very dangerous and scary because they're using it to put people like Donald Trump in office and then problem five power over process so she makes the claim that David French and Russell Moore make all the time that Christians are just these

41:33

Christian nationals are about power and She says Trump is the man who by all accounts has the least claim of any public figure and recent member to those virtues that identified as Christian but But the

41:44

Christians have embraced him and while many Americans still believe that the Christian right is primarily concerned with values

41:50

Leaders of movement know it's really about power And so she uses Trump to prove this that look he's kind of a low -life

41:55

Christians endorsed him So they really don't care about values And what I'd say to that is people need to I think think of the culture war in different terms

42:04

It's a culture siege and we are being ever more Pushed back into a narrower and narrower circle of influence and You have people like Donald Trump who we disagree with when it comes to his personal morality and those kinds of things

42:20

But he's willing to push back on the same hordes that are trying to destroy us and destroy our institutions

42:27

And so he ends up becoming a co -belligerent. He ends up becoming an ally He that's how you have to view it and the situation changes in the 90s you know, we did not have the the hordes had not gotten to the inner circle of you know, they had not it was not let's say a

42:47

Something that you could talk about openly and publicly without risking some kind of political backlash you know adultery affairs those kinds of things and In 2010 and 2011 and now in 2016, especially and now it's 2024

43:03

That we've already breached that the barbarians breached it it was the Democrats really who who more than the

43:10

Republicans if you want to talk political who breached that more and So it doesn't mean that those values don't matter anymore.

43:16

It just means that you have to realize the situation we're in We are we have fallen to a farther level and to try to Continue a defensive action

43:26

We are now fighting over things like, you know, can women be men in without?

43:32

In the schools by getting surgeries without telling their parents, you know It's there's a different set of issues that are now coming to the fore.

43:40

So So it's not like Christians are endorsing Trump's bad behavior

43:45

They just recognize that the worst behavior the that are being foisted upon them Trump will oppose

43:52

So so Catherine Stewart doesn't make she doesn't see any of this it seems she says at this point it would be

43:58

It's apparent to any listener that the agenda of project blitz Which was one of the right -wing initiatives has nothing to do with religious freedom and the proper sense of the term

44:07

It's a Christian army that's trying to fight on behalf of conservative Christians who wish to discriminate against those who do not share their beliefs and when they say religious freedom

44:16

The Christian nationalist participants simply meant privilege for those with the right religion. This is a key thing right here

44:22

She is very offended that Christian nationalists as she calls them will not fight for universal human values that they fight for themselves and what they believe in as their faith defines it and so the only right thing in her mind to fight for is something that is universal that every everyone can kind of agree on that Applies to everyone and you don't want to privilege one group over any other group

44:46

Of course, she wants to just privilege secular humanist liberals but But but she doesn't she gives herself a neutrality that that's the neutral position.

44:56

That is the universalism everyone should just You know agree to but the thing she doesn't see about Christian nationalists

45:02

I think is that they actually see what they believe as the universal truth now

45:08

Maybe not their particular, you know Anglo -saxon or you know, German Lutheran or whatever variety of Christianity but they do see

45:15

Christianity as Universal religion that all people will be judged by and and so it's a good thing when rulers apply

45:23

Christian values and Principles because it blesses everyone and I don't think she understands that she still she can't get out of the mindset that Christianity is just this one narrow religion and it's like a it's like, you know liking the color blue There's people who like the color blue.

45:38

There's people that are right -handed. There's people that are handicapped There's people who like to go fly -fishing. There's there's these particular things that should not be foisted on everyone else

45:47

You know not everything has to be about fly -fishing not everything has to be handicap accessible because only some people have those issues right or only some people enjoy that sport and Christianity is the same thing, but it's not that's the problem in part

46:01

Christians actually believe what their Bible says about mankind broadly speaking is true. So you have a competition between two universal claims here universal sets of claims

46:14

Hidden agenda, so the other thing is she thinks that there's I mean, she's already kind of teased at this, but That the whole she's a whole section on school choice and charter schools

46:24

And she thinks that it's just a way to funnel taxpayer money into schools that discriminate teach pseudoscience Fake history and promote contempt for those that are different So it's it's a hidden agenda that they're not they want to improve the quality of schools

46:37

But that's not what they're actually doing. They can't possibly want to improve the quality of schools They're just trying to get taxpayer money to fund what they believe now

46:45

I would point out taxpayer money has funded our winning evolution for how many years? It has funded things that Christians totally disagree with even though the majority of the country claims to be

46:54

Christian And even though last I checked it was roughly half the country Rejects Darwinism yet.

46:59

We've funded that in the schools. That's just one thing right now. We're fun funding All kinds of transgender nonsense and the rest and somehow that's not that's perfectly fine

47:10

That's acceptable. That's not undermining. That's not a hidden agenda That's just education in her mind but Christians They don't you know any kind of public monies that?

47:22

May be coming back to them from what they've already given because the you know, there's no free money there It's a lot of working -class

47:28

Christians supporting the government that exists whatever money they can get back in maybe a charter school or something

47:34

To promote values that they believe in that's not acceptable That's a hidden agenda and it assumes the money doesn't even belong to them the the taxpayer money belongs to This really

47:45

I guess it's it's a group of narrow -minded elites I want to voice their crazy agenda on the rest of the country and that's that's supposed to be universally good

47:55

So here are my conclusions this letter letter. This book was written for those on the left giving them an insiders perspective

48:02

Supposedly, but it uses a lot of elitist language. You even find that with the food She'll talk about like I was at this Christian nationals event and they had barbecue baked beans and she talks about the menu items and it's always like, you know redneck kind of food and You just get this sense.

48:16

It's dripping with elitist kind of a smugness about it But there's also a lot of biased sources

48:22

She's constantly quoting all like left -wing think tanks and a freedom from religion foundation and the it's it's totally biased in that way

48:30

So it considers Christians advocating for themselves instead of universal values evil and engages in projection accusing

48:36

Christian nationals of doing what she's doing They can't pursue power. They can't pursue influence They're not allowed to use the money that they pay in taxes to promote things that are good for their communities in their minds they they have to be the slaves of The federal or the national government and a extreme left -wing agenda that comes out of them that that's really the only option here

49:01

She engages in the similar tactics though that she criticizes. Here's one example. She quotes mines She talks about David Barton quote mining and which

49:08

David Bartman I've said before he does actually quote mine sometimes But but she does the same thing only worse she talks about America was a pluralistic land from the beginning.

49:18

She quotes Thomas Jefferson's wall of separation The Virginia Statute of Religious Freedom She talks about the

49:25

Treaty of Tripoli and of course that settles it and the thing is if you look into all these things No, it doesn't.

49:31

No, it doesn't not at all in fact, and I can't do a whole long history on this but the the whole purpose of the separation of church and state was to prevent the state the and this is the national state the national government from imposing itself on to local churches and It was to protect churches from the state that's essentially what it was.

49:53

So not the other way around the Virginia Statue for Religious Freedom was meant to promote a

50:00

Really a broad kind of Christian society in Virginia. So remember Virginia is coming out of being an officially

50:08

Anglican and then Episcopalian Well Anglican colony and and and after the war for independence they're no longer

50:21

Anglican and There's other people moving in and there's other

50:26

Protestant groups in Virginia and so they have this it really that was the context and they have this situation and that same year

50:33

Thomas Jefferson and And James Madison who author this particular and support this particular

50:39

Bill of Religious Freedom They also have a law against Sabbath breaking the same year So you cannot say that that's what they were really just trying to have a secular society.

50:48

That's not the case and then the Treaty of Tripoli is it's interesting people go to this because it's kind of like a vague obscure thing to try to Build a whole case on but you have the

50:57

Barbary Pirate issue and we're trying to get basically We want to get people that the

51:03

Barbary Pirates have seized from the United States to return back to the United States and In a treaty of Tripoli one of the things that we explain to the

51:12

Barbary Pirates is that we are not The foundation of the United States of the and it's really just a national government

51:19

We're not Christian in the sense of and we're talking to Muslims here in In the sense of the Crusader states that people who fought with the

51:26

Muslims. We are we're different now, maybe that's not true, but that's what the Treaty of Tripoli says we

51:32

We are not opposed to Islam in the ways that some of these European countries have been opposed to Islam in the past There's a continued war that's been going on since the

51:40

Crusades and before that really because Muslims started it and we're not part of that That's what the

51:46

Treaty of Tripoli is about It's not saying anything about what state governments can do whether they can establish a religion on the state or local level it's

51:54

To build something off of that is just it's desperate. That's what I'd say the conflict. She said took a turn in Philadelphia when

52:01

Protestants and Catholics hit the streets so Catholics and Protestants were disagreeing with each other and She quotes

52:08

Ulysses S Grant that he said leave the matter of the religion to the family circle the church and the private school Supported by private contributions keep the church and state forever separate.

52:17

So she thinks that's authoritative Ulysses S Grant said this Therefore it's American and we must abide by it.

52:23

Well, that's the same thing David David Martin does only she you know, hers are more desperate

52:28

I mean the fact that she can't find, you know, mainstream figures to quote She's got to like look for Ulysses S Grant to try to find something kind of proves that so that's just my assessment of this particular book the power worshipers and I guess

52:44

I just want people to know the main point that I did. This was that this book is intending to expose supposedly

52:53

Christian nationalism today and you have a bunch of Christians Supposedly supporting this and being interviewed for it.

53:00

And yet the book it's based on is really just an anti -christian diatribe. That's all it is and They they are this confirms that those guys

53:09

David French Russell Moore Jamar Tisby Christian Dumas that they're you being used as tools. That's all it is

53:15

They no one should really listen to anything They say anymore if they're going to partner with a narrative like this and with producers who are blatantly against Christianity So that's kind of that this is my opinion.

53:26

That's a podcast for today if you want to become a patreon a patron you go to patreon .com forward slash worldview conversation and I will have this posted there more coming.