July 7, 2015 ISI Radio Show with Pastor John Samson on “God’s Sovereignty in Election” Part 2

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this seventh day of July 2015 and I'm delighted that we are going to be entering into part two of a discussion we began not long ago on Iron Sharpens Iron with our guest,

Pastor John Sampson of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. We are going to be continuing the discussion of his book, 12

Whatabouts, Answering Common Objections Concerning God's Sovereignty in Election.

Very important subject, especially since I happen to be a believer in the doctrines of grace, the doctrines of God's sovereign grace, reform theology,

Calvinism, however you want to nickname it. And of course, if I think it's important, that must mean it is important since I am the host of this program especially and it's my great honor and privilege to welcome you back for the second time on Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor John Sampson.

Great to be with you. The honor and the privilege is definitely mine. Thank you. And you know something,

John? I couldn't even enjoy the weekend celebrating the humiliating defeat of the

British over 200 years ago. I couldn't even blow stuff up and celebrate because of the sad news, the tragic news of the

Supreme Court decision on same -sex marriage. But I don't know about you, but do you even celebrate that day over here now that you are a pastor here in the

United States? I do what I can. I'm certainly an American citizen now and my children are

American in quite a dramatic way from wanting to be

God outside Buckingham Palace. That's G -U -A -R -D,

God. I've come a long way now. And I apologize if anybody is offended by the laughter in the light of the announcement

I just made, but hey, you know, we still have to live and survive and move on in our lives.

And laughter, I believe, is a gift of God. And I'm not making light of the seriousness of what just developed, but I can't crawl up in a fetal position and lock myself in the attic, which

I actually do more often than I should. I can't do that all the time.

Before we go on with a continuation of our discussion, which we barely scratched the surface of the last time, because I, being a blabbermouth or whatever you want to call it, a bloviator,

I went on and on and on and only touched one of your 20 chapters in your book.

We addressed John 3 .16 and how that is probably the most frequently brought up objection to God's sovereignty in election.

But before we even go into the other, or begin to explore the other 19 chapters, tell us, our listeners, those who missed the last show, tell our listeners about King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Yeah, we're a fairly new church. We're just starting out in many ways and just ordained our second elder, so we're feeling like we've got more of a biblical precedence for what we're doing.

Just very thrilled to embrace the doctrines that were very much central at the time of the

Reformation of the five solas of God, justifying sinners by means of his grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, to the glory of God alone, all based on scripture alone, and then these doctrines of grace that you mentioned, the

Reformed faith, very much at the heart of what we're doing, and we're seeking to win the last four key words of reaching, teaching, training, and then sending, either sending people back to their homes, to their workplace, or even on mission trips and long -term missions around the world.

We really want to take the gospel, which we think is central, and building out from there to affect each one of our lives in a very practical way.

So we're thrilled to be doing church the way the New Testament teaches it, as far as we can understand it, and we're encouraged by what we've seen so far.

And you are a Reformed Baptist church, that's how you describe yourself? Yes. And for those of our listeners who missed another one of, actually

I said this is the second time you were on the program, this is actually the third time, because prior to that you addressed the

Word of Faith movement, which you were once an adherent of, and God delivered you from that, and I do want to direct our listeners to hear that fascinating testimony of John's deliverance out of the

Word of Faith movement, which he embraced not only as an ordinary Christian, but as a pastor, and he was at one time even a host of the local

TBN television network, which is run by Word of Faith heretical individuals, and we thank the

Lord that John's on our side now. It's unspeakable mercy, it's really that many

I've talked to are not even interested in looking at the Scriptures, who were my friends and co -pastors and preachers, and they're just not interested.

So again, I subscribe to the sovereignty of God and His mercy in showing me those truths that I was certainly neglecting, more than neglecting, but just had no idea of.

I'm just so thankful to God. Well, why don't we address the other most frequently brought up objection to God's sovereignty in election, which is in fact chapter 6 in your book.

What about free will? That seems to be next to the reality of the existence of Jesus Christ, the

God -Man, and His sacrifice on Calvary's cross and resurrection.

That seems to be the most important issue with those who do not believe in the doctrines of grace or God's sovereignty in election, which we call, as Calvinists, we call unconditional election.

In fact, why don't you give another very brief definition of what that is, and then we'll move on to free will, which, unless you disagree,

I think that that is a highly cherished belief right next to those pillar, cardinal issues, doctrines of the

Christian faith that I just mentioned. Absolutely. You talked about unconditional election, and a key passage would be

Romans 9, which talks of God choosing one of the twins, Jacob rather than Esau, and making it clear it was not because of works, not because of their actions, future actions, the choice was made while they were still in the womb, and therefore unconditional election is the fact that God could just give everybody justice.

We deserve death and hell and eternal punishment, but in sheer mercy He chooses to awaken some souls, not all, and that's the controversy, but some, to see

His love, His mercy, and experience exactly that, His love and His mercy, while He passes over others.

And the only reason you and I would believe it is because Scripture teaches it, because we live in a very democratic world where we think everyone has a right to freedom, a right to salvation in the ultimate sense, and God is the just, holy

God who says, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy. And that does not strike the right chord in us, who are very independent and think we have a right to mercy.

But again, should we ever think we have a right to mercy, we've misunderstood mercy.

If a governor of a state has mercy on some criminal who's about to be executed, and despairs them that punishment, there's no biblical or historical or judicial basis for everybody on death's road to then say, well, he must do the same for me.

No, he can have mercy on whom he can have mercy, and God is that way, and His answer when we charge him with injustice is, who are you, oh man?

I have the right to do what I will with my mercy. So I think that's where the controversy is, and it's because we are so man -centered, so thinking about ourselves, we've got more in common with an adult

Hitler than we do the holiness of God. And so we squirm when we hear that someone like a

Hitler, as bad as he was, will squirm for eternity under the heel of the anger of God for, again, there's something in us that says, after 10 ,000 years of that, can't we have some parole?

Can't we have some discrimination of justice where he says, okay, that's enough?

But again, God is just and will punish sin as severely as the punishment deserves, and He has no obligation to show anyone mercy, just as He did not for any angels who have sinned.

The angels who have fallen will remain fallen and will be punished forever, and there was never any attempt by God to redeem a single one of them.

But mercy upon mercy, grace upon grace, there will be so many around the throne of God who were absolutely fallen in Adam, fallen as sinners who will be redeemed, bought by the blood of Jesus, and that is the story of the

Bible. Well, you know, you actually just proved that English is not a common language amongst

Americans and British individuals, because I asked for a brief definition. But...

Brief according to what? Brief according to what it could have been. Well...

God have mercy on you. Well, do you agree with my assessment earlier, before you gave the definition, that free will, appears to be one of the cardinal beliefs of those who reject the doctrines of sovereign grace that would seem to line up right next to the deity of Christ, his sacrifice on Calvary, and his resurrection, and his virgin birth, and all those things.

It seems to be something that is irremovable from their Gospel proclamation, from their whole sense of what is right and wrong.

They think that without this belief, God's true character has been assaulted, that his love has been tarnished.

It just seems to be something that has become an idol with many professing

Christians. And if you could comment, maybe you think I'm wrong on that, but what do you think? I'd agree absolutely, and in fact

I'd like for us to just camp out on that for a little while, because I think it is just so as you've spoken it.

Martin Luther, who was obviously the prominent man in the Reformation, when he looked back on his ministry and all that he'd done, all that he had written, he thought of his book, which was called

The Bondage of the Will, as the most important thing he had done. The most important because it alone shows us the work of grace in the heart of anyone who is brought to Christ.

He actually made this statement, it's a famous one, if anyone ascribes salvation to the will, even in the least, he knows nothing of grace and has not understood

Jesus Christ aright. Now, someone might not agree with him, but that was

Luther's assessment of the issue of free will. If we think that we get into heaven because of our will, we've not understood grace because of this.

Here's where we need to have a starting point, and I would agree, all of us, just like a fish in water, if you were to interview a fish,

I don't know how far you'd get with giving an answer, but I won't have to ponder that question in a class.

What does a fish know about water? Does it know that it's surrounded by water? Once it's out of the water, it realizes its great need of water, it can't survive without it, but it's so surrounded by that water that does it actually go through a fish's mind about what water is?

Does it know it's in water? And in the same way, do we know the environment we've grown up in?

We've been surrounded, not by water, but by a pagan way of looking at life, a pagan way of looking at the human will, that says that we, mankind, are basically neutral.

There's good and there's evil, and we can, at any moment, choose good based on our feelings, our thoughts, our inclinations, and the fact is, where the

Bible addresses this, it says that no one does good, not even one, and then it says, even more than that, the heart is desperately wicked, that there's nothing in the heart or the soul of anyone outside of Christ that actually wants

Christ. And we say, no, that can't be true, because I know someone who's really seeking for God, he's been involved in Buddhism, he's now in Mormonism, he's really seeking, and from God's perspective, no, he isn't.

The moment we start seeking God is the moment we've found him, because every attempt at religion, although we as Christians know that people need forgiveness in Christ, they need their guilt removed in Christ, because they want to have their guilt removed, but they're not looking to Christ, they're not actually seeking

God, they're trying to find remedies for their guilt without Christ.

The moment we're brought to faith is because of a prior work of God in our hearts, in taking out what the

Bible describes as a heart of stone. There's nothing there, there's nothing in our hearts that wants what

God is offering to us, which is himself. We want forgiveness, we'd love that, we'd love heaven, if it didn't mean having to worship

Jesus for eternity, we'd love free golf, free rock and roll, free rent, but we just don't want

God until God does the work in us. And so I would absolutely agree, and would say that Luther thought this was the most important aspect of the

Reformation itself, was understanding grace alone saves.

It's not God that offers this wonderful thing called salvation, and then it's up to us to respond, and it's our choice that turns the key of salvation, but it's that God actually shows us the beauty of Christ so that we want him, and then we respond.

Once we're alive, we can respond. It's like Lazarus in the tomb, once he's brought to life, he can walk out of the tomb, but until then, he's dead, just like we are, in trespasses and sins.

And it is ironic that today some of the most vociferous anti -Calvinists, or those who are opposed to the doctrines of God's sovereignty, are also very frequently, very vehemently anti -Roman

Catholic, and sometimes to the point of nastiness and cruelty and hate, and the irony is that they are really siding with the

Roman Catholic Erasmus in the great debate of the Reformation on the bondage of the will between Erasmus and Martin Luther, aren't they?

Absolutely, and that's a fact that would be denied by them, but historically that's certainly the case, and they are much nearer to Rome.

In fact, they're identical on the issue of grace as to how grace functions.

The technical word would be semi -Pelagian. They believe that grace comes along to us, and manner is the deciding factor.

The rest of the Reformers were very much opposed to that and thought of the semi -Pelagian view as a step, or many steps, on a road back to Rome, certainly in agreement with Rome on the issue of grace itself.

And of course, the evangelicals or fundamentalists who would be in disagreement with us on this are not in harmony with Rome as far as sacerdotalism or salvation through ritual or obedience or anything of that nature.

We're talking about the will itself. Right, right, right, and the thing that you will common here, in fact, a very well -known anti -Calvinist or non -Calvinist writer and speaker coined the phrase cosmic rape in regard to what we believe about election because they so hold free will as a precious and glorious gift that they believe that we are saying that God is forcing people against their will to follow

Him and believe in Him and love Him. Is that what we are saying, that God is forcing people against their will?

Not at all. In fact, there's a lot of assumptions in what they are saying which we need to correct biblically.

I remember in the book, I'm kind of looking for the paragraph where I start off on free will as an objection.

I say this, why are you reading this? And I would say to the listener, why are you listening to this program right now?

Yeah, this particular sentence right now, there are billions of sentences out there just waiting to be read or heard in many languages, but right now you're listening to this one.

Why? Well, it could be that some reformed and crazed individuals put a gun to your head and told you that if you don't give it, he'd actually shoot you.

And that would definitely be what some refer to as a cage stage reformer after coming to understand these doctrines of grace for a period of a couple of years or so, they need to be locked up in a cage.

His zeal for reformation truth needs to be augmented with sanity and human relationships because this man, he'd send books, tapes,

CDs, MP3s, DVDs, emails to all unsuspecting victims regardless of whether or not they've ever shown any interest.

Christmas is his favorite time of the year because he's going to be sending R .C. Sproul's book, Chosen by God, to everybody he knows.

He's on a mission, but he needs to cool down. But even with that crazed reformed nut with a gun at your head scenario, you're still making the choice to continue either to read or to listen to these words rather than face the contents of the gun.

You prefer to read this or hear this rather than feel the impact of the bullet and even now you're continuing to listen because you want to.

Right now you do anyway because that's your strongest inclination. And here's this fact, there's no possible way for you to be reading anything else at this moment.

It's impossible that you'd be reading this or hearing this or reading something other than this right now and that will continue to be the case until you have a stronger desire to do or read or listen to something else.

Just saying that I think helps people because we make our choices based on the most prominent desire of the heart at the moment of the choice.

So we have a free will in the sense that we choose things freely according to our nature and desires, correct?

Exactly, exactly. And what we say then after saying that, and that is to affirm the nature of the will, is our wills are in bondage to our hearts.

Our hearts are our inclinations, our desires. And until God works in the heart, our will is to do something other than come to Christ.

We don't want Christ according to nature. It's not in us.

Hearts of stone do not choose to become hearts of flesh. We don't want

God. Romans 8, 7. It's the mind, the carnal will, is enmity against God.

It cannot submit itself. It cannot because its nature is one of hostility towards Christ.

Again, we're going to the Bible here rather than the philosophy book which basically says man is neutral, he can choose whatever he wants.

No, the Bible says man is not neutral, he's hostile, and every choice he makes will be made in opposition to God until God changes the heart.

To call it cosmic rape is to use emotional language, but I see it as unspeakable mercy, just as I don't think when

Lazarus was raised from the dead, he went immediately to an attorney to sue

Jesus for violating his right to stay in the tomb. Well yeah, and Romans 8, 8 says that those who are in the flesh cannot please

God. Those who are in the flesh are obviously lost people, and if believing in God pleases him, how on earth could we do that in a saving way other than in an intellectual way of course, but in a saving way, how could we do such a thing if we are in the flesh?

Obviously this is a rescue mission that God always successfully completes when he is on a mission with his own people, correct?

Exactly, and if people just looked at those two verses, verse 7 and verse 8 of Romans 8, again in this context where very quickly after,

I believe it's the next verse, he says, you are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit if the Spirit of God dwells in you.

So the people of the flesh are unregenerate people and they cannot please

God, and it is in perfect accord with Jesus who in John 3 says, unless a man is first born again, unless he's born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

He can't even see it. Right, and so therefore, Jesus removing our heart of stone and replacing it with a heart of flesh and having the

Holy Spirit bring us to new life, that is not rape or being forced against our will, that is being given a new will, and what on earth could be wrong with that if you are being rescued from damnation?

Exactly. No one comes kicking and screaming to Christ. No one. No one ever has.

The will is actually a perfectly, how would

I say, it works very well. The will works very well, but it's always the overflow of the heart, and the heart itself is deceitful, it's wicked until God works in that heart, and so a heart of stone will have a will that will make choices to go to a baseball game, go to the grocery store, buy a house, wear the clothes that we will wear that day, but it is incapable of coming to Christ because there's no desire in that heart to do so.

In fact, I hope I don't offend any of my Pato Baptist friends and brethren.

I'm sure I probably will offend some of them, but I think the Reform Baptists really live out this truth more fully and completely because throughout history,

Reform Baptists have never believed in using the sword against heretics.

We do not believe that men like Rome did and those who are involved in other forms of sacerdotalism and magisterial

Reformers who would use the sword, there was often a, that was the attempt to coerce someone and truly force them to believe something, but we know that you cannot be forced to savingly believe in the

Gospel of Christ. Am I right? I'd agree with that. I can see why

Pato Baptist would disagree, but I think you have historical basis for saying what you've just said.

And especially with Rome, even our Pato Baptist brethren who are Reformed, they would wholeheartedly agree with it, that Rome was specifically demanding people to recant their heresies by threat of torture and death.

Yeah. And we're going to be going to a break right now. If you have a question for John Sampson on unconditional election or on anything involving free will or Calvinism, the doctrines of grace, give us an email at chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name at least, the city and state where you live, and the country where you live if it's outside of the

United States. We look forward to hearing from you and your questions for John Sampson right after these messages, so don't go away.

Transcribed by https://otter .ai

Transcribed by https://otter .ai

Transcribed by https://otter .ai Welcome back.

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, we are having an interview with John Sampson, who is the pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

The website of the church is kingschurchaz .com.

That's kingschurchaz .com. We're discussing 12 Whatabouts, which is his books, where we are addressing common objections to God's sovereignty in election.

And let me repeat the email address if you have any questions. It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And this is a live interview, so send those emails as soon as you can.

The other thing that comes to mind in regard to this, by the way, John, I hope you don't mind if we just keep having you back to address the different subjects, because each subject is so rich with content that obviously it'd be difficult to jam a lot of these adequately and adequately cover them in one broadcast, if you follow what

I'm saying. So I'd like to have you keep coming back to address the different aspects of the, or the different Whatabouts, if you will.

Yeah. But one thing that has occurred to me often is that to be consistent, if you're really going to hold to a understanding of free will, you really have no basis in believing in what has called eternal security.

Because why on earth, if you have the freedom of will to choose

Christ as Savior, while you're still in a dead, spiritually dead condition and lost and in the flesh, if you have the ability to do that, to summon that up within your soul, within your wretched dark soul, why is it that you can't freely choose to abandon

Christ? And in fact, people who believe in eternal security are divided sharply into obviously more than two camps, but there are those who believe in what we would call easy believism, who believe that a genuine born -again believer can live an unrepentant, licentious life, their entire life until they die, after having a quote -unquote saving experience or born -again experience.

And there are those, on the other hand of the spectrum, who would agree with us as Reformed Christians that repentance is necessary, as is bowing to the

Lordship of Christ, although never in a perfect fashion on this earth. But the latter would have less of an argument to believe that if they believe in free will.

Why can't you abandon Christ, if you could comment on that? I think I absolutely agree.

If your will got you in, surely your will can get you out. But the message of the

New Testament is that he that began the good work in us, he will perform it.

It's God's work. Salvation is all of grace and all of him, and that's why it's of his doing we're in Christ Jesus.

Jesus made it very clear, no man can come to me, he said, unless the

Father who sent me draws him, and I'll raise him up on the last day, John 6 44, which again, in one verse, it slightly denies the free will that many just assume.

And that's the problem we assume it. People have asked me the question about free will obviously before, and I've said, show me a verse that teaches free will.

And they kind of look at me like I've got three heads or something. Why would you even question that?

It's so assumed that man has free will. And I said, look, the Bible says we've got a will.

But where in the Bible does it say it's free? Jesus made it clear he who sins is actually the slave of sin.

We're enslaved to our desires. The worst thing imaginable for us is that God leaves us to our desires, because they are not in any way conducive to coming to Christ or to dwelling on the beauty of the gospel.

It's not there, it's not part of us. There is no God -seeker, Romans 3 11.

And so Jesus makes it clear, no one can, no one has the ability, speaking of an enablement, no man has the ability to come to Christ, to come to him, unless God does something.

And he does it so effectively that the one he draws is actually raised up to eternal life.

And again, no one is able, is Jesus' words. And as much as we would admire the great theologians of the past, like Luther and Calvin and Edwards and Spurgeon and others, every

Christian loves Jesus. And I am a Reformed preacher and pastor because of Jesus.

Jesus made this very clear, no one can come to Christ, which is the issue of free will, isn't it?

No one can do it unless God does it. And when he does it, it's so effective that that one drawn is raised upon the last day.

It's God's work. And the one who has come to Christ is someone who has a new nature, and if there is no evidence of that new regenerated heart, it causes us, though we're not the judges,

God is the judge, it causes us to say and question, was there a real born -again experience?

Because the one with a born -again heart has new desires, and they will manifest themselves.

We call them fruits. We call these things the fruit of regeneration. John the

Baptist brings forth fruit of repentance. If there's been a real repentance, which is necessary,

Jesus made it clear, unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Unless there's evidence of repentance, there has been no change of heart.

And we do have a listener in Fort Myers, Florida, Mike. He says,

Greetings, John. Thank you for your thoughtful commentary and analysis in both shows which address the topic at hand.

Would you kindly provide an overview of the topic of Provenient Grace from the standpoint of Arminian and Reformed theologies?

Thank you, Mike. Are you familiar with the Provenient Grace issue?

Yeah, it's again a philosophic framework that people bring to the

Bible, trying to have an intermediate position between someone who would just be what we would call

Pelagian, who would say that man can do whatever he wants to do at any moment, he can come to God, he can save himself, basically, and the

Augustinian view, which is it's all grace from start to finish. In the middle there is an idea, a concept, a philosophical concept called

Provenient Grace, which says that God offers to each and every man and woman, boy and girl, the same measure of grace, and then leaves it to them to decide whether they'll take advantage of it.

I think that's it in a nutshell. Provenient means something that comes before, it's grace that comes before the enactment of regeneration, and regeneration takes place by the determination of the will of man.

So in other words, it's basically like the Holy Spirit doing what the

Holy Spirit can to prepare your heart to make a decision, and ultimately that decision is still within the will and power of man to make, but it's the preparation that the

Holy Spirit does in this flawed theology, correct? Absolutely, and if you think about it, if people think that through, if that is true, then there is actually no point in praying for God to do anything.

People are Arminian and have all of these philosophical ideas in their minds, but in the prayer meeting, when they're praying for their brother, or their sister, or their mother, they ask

God to do something. They ask God, Lord open up his heart, open up her heart to see the truth, and if God was the author of the prevenient view, he would thunder back, hey guys, don't you know

I'm doing all I can? I've done everything I can, now it's up to this guy, this lady, to do what she can do.

I've done all I can, why are you praying to me to do something? Don't you know I give the same exact grace to every man?

And again, when in the prayer meeting, people speak from their hearts, they know in their hearts what is true, they're asking

God to do something. Open up their eyes. The New Testament, when it talks about the opening of the heart, oftentimes a preacher will say, open your heart to Christ.

Biblically, the only one who does that is God. The respond to the things said by Paul, I think it's

Acts 16 verse 14. Again, it's God's work to open up the heart. So just logically, if God was doing the exact same thing for every person, there would be no point in praying, because he's already doing all he can.

Yeah, and this is a way around people being accused of being raw

Pelagians, that they reject the notion that men are born perfect and sinless, but they don't want to accept unconditional election either, so they come up with this explanation of how

God is involved in preparing the sinner heart to freely choose him, but without actually removing that heart and replacing it.

And again, we need to go back to Jesus, who said, unless a man is firstborn again, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus was very clear, and the problem with prevenient grace is there's no biblical basis for it.

There isn't. And we're going to be going to our final break right now. If you have any questions, this will be your last opportunity, at least during this live program, and the email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages.

Linbrook Baptist Church on 225 Earl Avenue in Linbrook, Long Island is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century.

Our church is far more than a Sunday worship service. It's a place of learning where the scriptures are studied and the preaching of the gospel is clear and relevant.

It's like a gym where one can exercise their faith through community involvement. It's like a hospital for wounded souls where one can find compassionate people and healing.

We're a diverse family of all ages, enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

Hi, I'm Pastor Bob Walderman, and I invite you to come and join us here at Linbrook Baptist Church and see all that a church can be.

Call Linbrook Baptist at 516 -599 -9402. That's 516 -599 -9402, or visit linbrookbaptist .org.

That's linbrookbaptist .org. Introducing 1031

Sermon Jams. But now for the good news that sounds like sweet music in the hell -bound sinner's ears, especially if you're like me and you know that you don't need

Romans 3 to remind you of how wicked you are. If you would like to learn more about 1031

Sermon Jams, visit us at our website at 1031sermonjams .com or follow us on Twitter or Facebook.

Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen. We have been discussing God's sovereignty in election and addressing arguments against it on our program with John Sampson, who is the pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

Their website is kingschurchaz .com.

If you have a question, we only have about 12 minutes left and our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And of course we will be returning for future broadcasts to continue this very deep discussion because we're only scratching the surface once again.

I just want to shout out a big thanks to Thrivant Financial in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, our newest sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Mike Gallagher, who is the local representative for Thrivant Financial, can be reached at 717 -254 -6433 for your financial advice needs.

717 -254 -6433. You can also email Mike Gallagher at michaelgallagher,

G -A -L -L -A -G -H -E -R, at Thrivant .com. That's michael .gallagher,

at Thrivant, T -H -R -I -V as in victory, E -N -T dot com. You can also see the ad now already posted on the

Iron Sharpens Iron website for Thrivant Financial and click on the Thrivant ad and the

Iron Sharpens Iron website is ironsharpensironradio .com. The other explanation that those who reject what we embrace,

John, the doctrines of grace, the doctrine of unconditional election, is God's foreknowledge.

The opponents of Reformed theology will use God's foreknowledge as their explanation on why he has elected anyone that he knows who will choose him.

So what about foreknowledge? It's a concept that I had in place as a

Christian for decades and I have to just admit I was wrong. I made an assumption that because in that wonderful golden chain of redemption as it's described in Romans 8, 28 through 30, foreknowledge, if you look at the text, that comes before predestination.

It says, we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good to those who are called according to his purpose.

For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his

Son. And it goes on and talks about calling and justification and glorification, that in my mind at least, it was clear to me at the time that because foreknowledge comes before predestination,

God must simply predestinate people who he knows ahead of time will choose him.

Makes perfect sense. The problem is, that's not what foreknowledge means. In fact, if you look at the text, it does not talk about the actions of man at all.

It talks about God doing five different things, foreknowing, predestinating, calling, justifying, and glorifying, and the foreknowledge is speaking of people rather than actions.

And on both sides of the aisle in this debate, we would want foreknowledge to come before predestination, because God does not predestinate people that are not known to him.

He foreknows all those he predestined. So the big question is, what does foreknowledge mean?

And it's a word used of Christ in the New Testament.

God foreknew Christ. What does that mean? That God knew ahead of time that Jesus would make right decisions?

No, it's speaking of a love relationship. It's speaking of the love of the Father for the

Son in all eternity past. Just like when Adam knew Eve in the garden.

Say that again, I'm sorry I missed that. Just as when Adam knew Eve in the garden of Eden.

Absolutely. That's the Hebrew word used there. It means absolutely, an intimate knowledge.

The result was a child, and Adam knew his wife, and that word is used all through the

Old Testament of God's relationship with Israel. Jeremiah, before you were born,

I knew you'd make certain choices. He had an established, or he chose to have an established relationship with Jeremiah long before he was born.

So it's a word of relationship. Some people would even say the word foreknew here, those whom he foreknew.

Again, it's not speaking of actions, it's speaking of people. It's speaking of a relationship, an intimate relationship, and God set his love in eternity past on a people, and right through that golden chain, if you walk through verses 29 and 30, it's the same people.

Again, it would make no sense if it meant only some of those he foreknew he predestined, or some he predestined he called.

There would be no assurance of salvation, which is the very thing that Paul is seeking to do in that passage.

He's taking the reader from a Pana headline in verse 1 of no condemnation for the one in Christ Jesus to the end of the chapter where he says no separation.

Nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, and that would make no sense if only some of those he foreknew he predestined, or some he predestined he called.

And again, the word called there is so vital to understand. That was one of the things that blew me away when

I realized every one of those he called he justified. What does that mean?

All those he called, these whom he called, he justified. And again, theologians have known this for centuries, but we're catching up with them to be able to stand on their shoulders.

But the theologians of the past have made a distinction between the outward call of the gospel, which we pray and we work towards everybody hearing on planet

Earth, and not everybody does get to hear the gospel call, come to Christ, repent, but that is certainly our desire.

And then there's this inward call, the call of the Holy Spirit. Just like Jesus called

Lazarus out of the tomb, God calls certain people.

The result is every one of them are justified. So it brings them to faith. It brings them.

It does the work. All those he called, he justified. And of course, those whom he justified, he also glorified.

So foreknowledge is a wonderful truth. If we'll just take time to study the word in its original setting and its original language, see that the absolute implication of the text is that everybody whom he foreknew, he predestined.

All he predestined, he called. All he called, he justified. All he justified, he glorified.

And there we see the magnificence of God's grace. And if you read the rest of the chapter, it's the us, it's the we, and it's the continuation of who shall bring a charge against God's elect.

It's the same people in view. And the answer is no one, because it's God who justifies.

He has a work in progress. It starts in eternity past. It will go on through eternity future, where all those he calls, he justifies, brings them through to glorification.

And he writes of it as such a certainty that the word glorified is spoken as in the past tense.

In time, we're still working that out. We're glorified. This is as good as done.

The one whom he has foreknown will end up glorified. And foreknowledge is simply part of that process.

He sets his love on a people and brings them all home. And this is not, as the opponents of Reformed theology would define it, it is not just a prediction of God.

It is not just a prophecy of God. God is not the supreme psychic who just knows the future intellectually or in his mind.

He actually has ordained the future and intimately knows those who will come to him, because he is the one that draws them to himself.

They are his children that he adopts, and he knows them in a very intimate and familial way, not just in a predictive sense or a prophecy sense, correct?

Absolutely. And again, just to reaffirm that, you mentioned the word know. I was thinking the verse in Amos, I believe it's chapter 3, verse 2, when he spoke of Israel, you only have

I known of all the families of the earth. Did he not know about the Moabites, the

Amorites? Of course he did. But he'd only known Israel in a redemptive sense, and that's the way the word know is used in that context.

He foreknew us, those who are in Christ. He set his love on us,

Hebrew word yadah, Greek word progenosko, and it means a pre -established intimate relationship.

And of course, those who would oppose the doctrine of unconditional election or sovereign grace, again, they're patting themselves on the back because they are saying, even if unconsciously or undeliberately, that God is choosing them because he saw something good in them, i .e.,

their choice. That's why people are elected and saved, is because God, through the corridors of time, saw who would be a good little boy and a bad little boy, and he chose the good little boys who chose him through their free will.

That's really what they're saying, even if they wouldn't term it in such a comical way, that's really what they're saying, isn't it?

It is, and they would seem to deny that, but that is the logical essence of it. Even if we just tie it down to a choice made,

God sees a head that would make the right choice. Why is it we'd make the right choice?

Someone else heard the same exact gospel, got the same measure of grace, so we did something.

It's our action that got us into heaven. And again, that leaves room for boasting, which is not merely kept to a minimum.

It's actually excluded, when we understand grace correctly. It's excluded.

There is no room for boasting because there was nothing in me that wanted

Christ. And that is exactly why Martin Luther, as we began our discussion today, talked about the fact, if you think your will got you into heaven, you know nothing of grace.

That's a strong statement, but that's Luther's statement, and I believe it's a biblical one. And it's a shame that many, many, many

Lutherans have abandoned the teachings of Martin Luther, or never knew it, because they're really following Melanchthon, I believe, in regard to the human will.

But anyway, we do have another listener, this one in your neck of the woods,

I'm not sure how close Mesa, Arizona is to Peoria, but we have David in Mesa, Arizona, asks,

Pastor Sampson, what one piece of advice would you give to someone who has recently come to understand the doctrines of grace and is hungry to learn more and tell others about this newfound theology?

Excellent question with which we should close the program and pick up next time on a different one of your points.

Yeah, I missed the key word. What's he asking about someone who's new to it?

What advice would you give someone who has recently come to the understanding of the doctrines of grace and is hungry to learn more and tell others about their newfound theology?

Before, you were talking about how very often new converts to Calvinism, if you will, are like wild, unchained dogs who have a little bit of wisdom and a lot of zeal, and they wind up doing more harm for the reputation of Calvinism than could.

But he's basically asking how would you treat a new believer in the doctrines of grace on how to learn more and share with others these things?

I think it's a very good question. I think what I would advise is not do what I did, which was be like that great individual.

I remember getting up preaching a message that was so strong that there were people that left the service halfway through shouting

John 3 16 at me. I didn't understand this or come to this by one sermon.

In fact, it was six or eight or nine months of just deep study, and we need to allow people the room to look at the words of Jesus, find it in the words of Jesus, rather than in the great theologians.

Let them see Jesus saying it, Paul saying it, Peter saying it, James saying it.

Let them see Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. And be gracious. If you've been affected by the message of grace, be gracious with those who have yet to learn these things and share what you can.

See if there's an interest, but at the same time, don't ram it down people's throats. And I've been guilty in the past of doing that.

Wisdom says just hold back a little, see if they'll eat any of the seed you put in front of them.

And if there's an interest, then you can direct them to some books. I wrote my book for the sole purpose of helping people who are struggling.

If they're not struggling, sending the book doesn't help. But if they're struggling with these things, allow them time to say, hey, there's some information.

Would you look at the Scripture with me? Let's look at John 6, 44. How do you see that verse?

Are you allowing it to instruct you? Or how can I help you see what I've come to see?

But be gracious, be very, very gracious. Someone whose life has been impacted by grace should also be gracious.

And if anything should destroy and burn the pride of man to a crisp, it's the doctrines of sovereign grace.

And unfortunately, and ironically, many who believe in these teachings we cherish have turned it into a reason to be proud and arrogant, which is absolutely nonsensical and ridiculous.

In fact, the preacher once told me that if you're going to be proud over believing anything, you're going to have to be proud to be a fool because the

Scriptures teach that God has chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Very well said.

And we have to recognize that even in our salvation, we owe all to God even in our understanding of his word.

And we have to be patient with others that have not come to embrace these things.

And also, we have to be able to learn from those who disagree, who may be much stronger in their faith and understanding in other aspects of the

Christian life. But thank you so much for being our guest once again. We're definitely going to have you back soon,

God willing. I want to point people to Solid Ground Christian Books to order your book, solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com, who published Twelve Whatabouts by John Sampson.

And also, the Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service has this available, another one of our sponsors, cvbbs .com,

cvbbs .com. I hope you always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. God bless, and we look forward to you joining us tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron.