Do Babies Go to Heaven and more

We, the

Christian podcast community of podcasters, gather to discuss our theological differences with love and charity.

All right, well, welcome to another Theology Throwdown. This is where all of the podcasters from the

Christian podcast community are welcome to come in and discuss different theological positions that we have on different topics.

The topic tonight is going to be, well, we're going to have a kind of a gamut of topics. We're going to talk about children, though.

So do babies go to heaven? Should we baptize young children? And is there an age of accountability?

And if so, what is that age? I'm still wondering if I hit that age yet. I mean, just we're not talking physically, right?

So all right. But with that aside, we do this once a month. We hope that this is going to be educational for you.

We have several different podcasters who are here and will be in the discussion. And so what

I'm going to start off with is let each of the podcasters introduce themselves, and then we will get into some questions and topics to go.

So I'm going to go in the order that I see on my screen. So Brett, you are first up. So introduce yourself, your podcast, and I guess whatever else.

Okay. My name is Brett Collier. I'm the host of the Christian Rebel podcast. Basically what's going on new with me this week,

I'm redesigning my website so I can input the logos from the Christian podcast community on there and have links to it.

And I just got done, just finished scripting the episode this week of, it's titled

Being a Godly Man, which is hard for some men in today's society because they haven't been really taught how to be a godly man.

No, our society asks the question, what is a man? Exactly. Next up, my favorite

New Yorker, Pastor Dom. Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. Pastor Dominic Romaldi here in, where am

I at, Casa Grande, Arizona, Desert Sky Baptist Church. And I do a podcast called Street Talk Theology, simple.

We just take theology and bring it to the streets. All right. Next up is

Eve. Hi. Yes, I'm Eve Franklin and I am co -host of the podcast,

Are You Just Watching? And I've also written the book, Are You Just Watching?, which is a do -it -yourself book, really, where you learn how to watch your entertainment with a

Christian worldview. And we just released our episode on the

Doctor Strange multiverse of madness just a couple weeks ago. And we will be doing the

Maverick movie for June. I've heard a lot of hype about Maverick.

So as far as I go, I just listen to your podcast and then I feel like I know enough about the movie that I don't have to go watch it.

We watch them so you don't have to. Yeah. Most of them I don't want to, after listening to your multiverse one,

I didn't want to. Melissa, you're up next. Sure.

My name is Melissa Lex. I actually go by the name Melvitos on my show. My show is

Thoroughly Equipped. And basically I look at women's ministry. We tackle the popular speakers, a lot of what they teach, and basically

I compare them to scripture. And right now, this whole season, we have basically decided to tackle the if gathering and just really dive in and show how they just don't handle scripture correctly.

And I will even be going into some of the critical race theory that's coming into the women's ministry through that.

So it's going to be interesting. Yeah, I was actually thinking of having you come on to Apologetics Live and talk about the if gatherings because I mean,

I'm not going to follow women's ministry. So I didn't really know about it until your podcast.

The next person up. Well, there's not often I get someone I could play a little clip here before introducing them.

So let's play a clip here. 12 seconds. Hi, I'm Andrew Rappaport from the Christian Exhibit.

Let me do that again. I'm all nervous for Justin here. That must be it. Yes, I'm very intimidated.

Justin Peters. I don't often get to play that clip. That was actually real.

We were trying to record and that actually happened. So it made it to bloopers.

Yeah, well, it's good to see everyone here. And my name is

Justin Peters and I have the dedicate podcast, which is a Greek word for teaching or doctrine.

And I'm an evangelist. Travel, preach and teach. Podcast, of course, have a

YouTube channel, do a little writing. Well, this little that whatever people ask me to do,

I'll do my best to do. OK, whatever people I would like to see you take a walk.

I could take a very short walk on crutches. I'd like to see a run. Running that that that would be a tall order.

For folks that don't know, Justin has cerebral palsy, so he doesn't walk around much.

But he can hit me with his his crutch pretty hard. No. All right.

So tonight's top. Oh, I should introduce myself. Sorry, Andrew Rappaport. I'm the host of Andrew Rappaport's rap report that's wrapped with two piece.

So you could just search for rap report with two piece has nothing to do with rap music. Sorry. It is to give biblical interpretations and applications to all things in Christian living.

The other podcast I do regularly is the Apologetics Live, and that is a podcast where you can come in and ask any question you have about God in the

Bible, because we say that we can answer any question about God and the Bible. And when you ask me a really tough question,

I'm going to go. I don't know. That's a perfectly good answer, by the way. So with that, let's get to the topic that we have.

Do baby can babies or do babies go to heaven? And I'll I'll let's see.

We'll start off. And by the way, just for those here who if you want to if you want to speak, you could just raise your hand or in the emojis.

You know, there's the little emoji thing that you can just raise your hand there, too. And where is that?

It's under chat or something. I forget where it is, but you guys will have to find it.

There's only one of you that needs to do that. So so let me let me start off with Pastor Dom.

And and out of everyone here, I only know Justin's view on this.

So so, Pastor Dom, do you think that babies can will go to heaven when they die?

And if so, where would you support that in Scripture? Yeah, it's a tough question.

I, you know, under under God's election, you would make you you can think that, you know,

God's elect will will definitely be in heaven. And then the question is, and I I know

I've heard this before, you know, is that fair? And I when it comes to saying what's fair and what's not fair,

I don't know if we're we're a good interpreter of what's fair. So it seems like the people that.

By grace that do go to heaven would be under God's election. You know, then in Isaiah, there's a there seems to be a passage that looks like and I know,

Andrew, I don't know, looks like there may be an age of accountability, but that's a tough play.

It depends if you I don't know, taking that out of context in Isaiah, but we can discuss that later.

So, yeah, I would I would I would say God's kind. He's a good God. He does all things well, but it seems like it would be hopefully, you know, looks like if they're

God's elect, they're going to be with the Lord. OK, Brett, ask you up next.

Yes, sir. I would hope so, because I had a son die after 10 days.

He was born premature. I remember holding his body in my arms. I looked up at this poster on the wall and I think

God put that poster up there for me and it says a thousand years from now will not matter. And I says, God, you're absolutely right, because I was angry with God for about five seconds.

I was telling him I want nothing to do with you anymore because you took my son. And when I saw that poster,

I said a thousand years from now will not matter. I had a confirmation in my spirit that I will see my son again.

And I thought of that scripture, too, about when the disciples were stopping children from bringing we're stopping the children from coming to Jesus.

Jesus said suffer the little children to come under me. So I think of that scripture. And it makes me think that kids will be in heaven.

And I have to say, I hope so, because I want to see my son again. And because I missed out on all those opportunities, like playing catch with the football and all those things

I had with my son. So I would say, yes, I believe they will. And I have to say,

I hope so as well. Yeah, well, you're not alone in that. I think that's actually the verse that MacArthur uses.

Eve, what's your position on it? I would have to say my position is I hope so as well.

I have a brother who lived for 25 hours before I was even born.

And it would be wonderful to be able to meet him someday. But I don't have any scriptural standpoint.

It's just something that I hope that God is as many children as sin has taken from this world before they were of an age to know

Christ and know his plan for them, that they would have an opportunity to meet Christ on the other side, if not on this side.

Melissa? Yes, I do believe that children, or especially babies, go to heaven when they die.

I actually think that there is some scriptural support. I think of David when his son died, and he said that he will see him again.

I think there's other scriptures, but I wouldn't go like real deep into it. But I think there's other scriptural references that can support that they are innocent of not sin nature, but committing sin.

So my answer would be yes. All right. Justin?

Yeah, well, I agree with these. It is my position that God extends his sovereign grace to children, young children, miscarriage babies, babies who die in the womb, aborted babies.

As I said, very young children, I believe he extends his sovereign grace to them. It's not that they are not born with original sin.

It's not that they're not born with a sin nature. I affirm that because scripture teaches that.

But they have not committed volitional acts of sin.

They have not suppressed the truth in unrighteousness, per Romans 118.

A baby who never makes it out of the womb is not suppressing the truth in unrighteousness.

It's not possible. And even children who can do things that they know are wrong, that they know that mommy and daddy don't approve of, they hit their little brother or sister, they don't clean their rooms or something.

They know they're doing stuff that mom and dad don't like and that might get them into trouble. But are they aware that they're committing sin against a thrice holy

God, the one who created them? Are they suppressing the truth in unrighteousness? No.

No, they just have not reached a level where they're capable of understanding that.

And so I don't believe that they are held accountable for it. It's not until they reach an age, and that's another debate as to what that age is exactly, but where they realize and understand that they're not just doing stuff to get them in trouble with mom and dad, but they're actually committing treason against God.

So a young, young child is not doing that. It's not reached that level yet.

And certainly not a baby or, you know, an aborted baby or miscarriage.

So, Brett, I'm sorry. And Eve as well. I was not aware until a few minutes ago that y 'all had that in your lives.

But I do affirm and fully believe that you will, Brett, you'll see your son again.

And Eve, you'll see your brother again. Appreciate that statement. I really do. Thank you so much. Yeah. And so,

Justin, real quick, though, because I know, you know, I've talked about it. What scripture passages would you go to to support your position?

Yeah, there's several. There's a number of them. And I will say that not everyone in the reform camp agrees with me or most of us here does not agree.

You know, there is debate about this, but there's a few of them. One would be

Jonah chapter four, verse 11. I think this is one of the stronger ones.

God says, so should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120 ,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals.

So God says there that there are 120 ,000 or 120 ,000 people in Nineveh who do not yet know the difference between the right and left hand.

In other words, God is saying, should I not have mercy on these who do not understand that they are committing volitional acts of sin against me?

And so he extends his mercy to them. That's one.

Another would be Ezekiel chapter 16, verses 20 through 21.

Ezekiel 16, 20 through 21. Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had born to me and sacrifice them to idols to be devoured.

Were your harlotry so small a matter? And then in verse 21, God says this, you slaughtered my children and gave them up to idols by causing them to pass through a fire.

You slaughtered my children. They belong to me. And so those are, there's some others.

I don't want to hog all the time here, but we can. Yeah, well, so my position is maybe a little bit different.

And let me preface by saying because I know that I have gotten into this many years ago online and someone told me

I was a horrible counselor for my position. That how dare

I ever talk to a parent who lost a child that I tried to explain to this woman. I lost a child. We lost our first child still in the womb.

And so I don't save my position without realizing that it's a difficult to hear.

My position ultimately is I don't know. I mean, that's ultimately my position. I look at, as was already mentioned,

I do believe children have a sin nature. I believe we're, you know, it's very interesting.

One of the things, the thing I get the most comments about in my book, What Do We Believe, is when

I talk about man's sinfulness. And I say the first act that we do outside the womb is a cry of selfishness.

And so some people have difficulty or don't like that. But I believe that's what it is.

And I think that I look at John the Baptist. He could in the womb recognize

Christ was present. And how? Well, I don't remember everything that happened in the womb.

In fact, I remember nothing that happened in the womb. And I think I'm in very good company because I think everybody here and everyone listening is in the same boat.

So my position is could God bring someone even in a womb to repentance?

I would say yes. I believe that that may have happened with John the

Baptist. I can't be sure. But, you know, could God do that?

Yes. So my position is not that all children would go to heaven or all children would go to hell.

I take a position I don't know. So the passage most people will turn to is 2

Samuel 12, dealing with David and his child. The context of that, right?

It was prophesied to David by Nathan that he was going to lose his son.

His son was going to die. So that was not a question. Like he knew the answer. But he prayed for seven days, fasted, pleading with God not to take the child in the hope that God would spare the child.

And he did not know the answer until he saw his servants, their servants were talking quietly and he realized the child is dead.

And they were confused because he having been, you know, so wrought with this, he gets up, worships

God and eats. And they're confused by that. And this line in here that people have where they believe that he is saying that his child will go to heaven.

It says he said, speaking of David, and this is verse 22.

While the child was alive, I fasted and wept. For I said, who knows, the

Lord may be gracious to me that the child may live. But now he has died.

Should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.

And many people think that that is David saying he will see his child again. Now, a couple of things here.

One, if that's what David is saying, David knew supernaturally that his child was going to die.

Could he have been told also by Nathan that his child would go to heaven? That's possible.

But more, I think this is a Jewish idiom, just saying I can go to death, but the dead can't return to life.

And so I would see that just as a Jewish idiom. Now, I was ready, more ready,

I should say, for some of the ones that came up, like John MacArthur says with the bring the little children unto me.

And I just don't think that that applies to children going to heaven. I think that my position is

I think that's using an illustration of something to teach a doctrine. But Justin threw me for a loop.

Since then, I didn't expect in the Jonah passage. And so because the footnotes in that where it says no, the difference of the right hand and the left, though,

I would still say that that could still be speaking of adults. But the footnotes, at least in the

New American Standard, agree with you, Justin, because they cite Deuteronomy 139, which says,

Moreover, your little ones who said would become a prey, and your sons this day have no knowledge of good or evil shall enter there.

And so it seems it's dealing with young children knowing the good or evil. So I will at least say that I think the writers or the translators of the

New American Standard agree with you. I don't know if I do. So let me open that up because I gave my position with a little bit more.

And I'm probably in the minority here. Not completely, because I think Brett and Dom kind of agree with me.

And Eve, just saying we don't know. But we would hope so. But I don't think

I can say yes for sure. I know that one woman told me I was a horrible counselor for saying that.

So let me open it up before the next question to see if anyone has any comments on what any of us said.

I'll look for a raise of hands to see if anyone disagrees. We at least had some disagreement in our position, but I don't know if anyone wants to pick up on any of it.

Yeah, these are hard things. I still want to believe that God does all things well.

Landing in that spot I think is good. I think we know God is good. He's kind. He's just.

Merciful. It's just a hard thing,

Andrew. But I think that he does all things well. Again, I lost a son at a young age, too.

Very, very, very young age. So I pray that I believe

God does all things well. Maybe I'll just land there. Well, I don't think we want to let our emotions define our theology.

Yeah, no, without a doubt. And that's one thing that, I mean, there are some people that do that, but I don't hear any of us saying that.

I mean, we're hopeful. Yeah, and that's a good point. We don't want our feelings to get involved.

I mean, that's true. I mean, we want Scripture to dictate what Scripture says. And, you know,

I don't think there's. I know there's some verses like Justin said and stuff, but I don't know if it speaks directly to that.

Maybe it does. But again, and you're right. We don't want feelings to get involved with theological thinking.

So I couldn't find the raise your hand thing. Okay, well, you can raise your hand.

I can see because you got my camera there. I just was looking online. I found a Scripture from Mark chapter 10 verses 13 through 14.

It's kind of like the one I said, but it's a little different. It says, and they were bringing children to him so that he might touch them.

But the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, permit the children to come to me.

Do not hinder them for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. So I think that's a great one possible

Scripture that could show that children go to heaven because the kingdom belongs to them. And I have to believe that babies go to heaven.

Again, I have to say I hope so because, again, I like I said before, I want to see my, my son again, but I was did some research real quick and I saw that Scripture on my phone.

Yeah, that was the one I expected Justin to bring up because that's one he's brought up before. Well, like I said,

I had others too. I just didn't want to hog all the time. And that's that is one of the others.

That is one of the other. And it's one that MacArthur points to as well. I forget,

Justin, what's the name of his book? MacArthur has a book. Safe in the Arms of God. Yes.

Safe in the Arms of God. It's a really good book, a book that I didn't officially endorse and that I didn't like write an endorsement for it.

But, but I commend it to people safe in the arms of God. It's difficult for me.

And again, I agree. We don't base our theology off of our emotions or how we feel or how we think God ought to be.

But it is difficult for me to to believe that, say, an egg that is fertilized.

I think all of us would agree at the moment of fertilization, that's a human being. Yes. That is a human being with a soul.

It is it is difficult for me to believe that, say, an egg is fertilized and you have a human being now with a soul and say two hours later, something happens to that fertilized egg and it dies.

So obviously that that person there, though he's a person, he has not yet had any any conscious, not even any thoughts.

I mean, we know babies in the womb as they develop further, they respond to stimuli, they kick, they squirm, they even suck their thumb.

But after after just an hour or so, you've got just a handful of cells there.

A person, yes, but just a handful of cells. It's difficult for me to believe that if something were to happen to that teeny tiny person that at that point is just a handful of cells, that the very first conscious.

Feeling thought the very first moment of awareness for that person would be the blast furnace of hell.

That's really hard for me to wrap my mind around. I agree. Someone I thought someone else was had looked like they were going to say something.

Yep. Melissa. Just in my brief study of this.

There's some things that I had just opened up my mind, just exponentially and thinking about it is you did quote the, the

Deuteronomy verse about not knowing good from evil. And I find that very interesting being that Adam and Eve sin was eating from the knowledge of the tree of good and evil, and how the

Bible and often describes our relationship with sin as knowing being intimate with sin.

And I just found it very interesting that while Adam and Eve were adults, and we all there's also talk of children not knowing good and evil, and almost as if, you know, extrapolating like they haven't been intimate with sin, to where they would still know

I can draw a line so there has to be a line, people need to know Christ the gospel is what saves.

And, but I feel as if the, again, I shouldn't say feel but I looking at the scriptures it's almost as if the, the, it's saying that they, they're not intimate with sin.

And so God is a gracious God. And they don't know evil from good they can't make that there's actually another verse that is

Isaiah 715 and 16. It seems to make the claim that children don't know and they reject evil don't know to reject evil and choose good.

So I think that to kind of can you can extrapolate from that that there's something different about the children not knowing evil not being intimate with sin, but, but they also in those

Matthew texts, and it explains that their, their faith is a humble faith, they trust easy and we are to be like them.

So then that tells me that there's something that's different about the way a child comes to knowledge of God, that's very easy that we as adults, because probably because, you know, we, we love our sin.

We know sin we know good and evil and so we we desire the sin.

And so we hang on to it more and so coming to Christ with a child, like faith is different, you know, for an adult than for a child who can actually come in and heaven is, you know, meant for them for that type of faith, and Isaiah 716 is also in this the other passage that is cited, or of course referenced in the

New American Standard as well. So, I mean,

I think that I don't think there's any clear passage in Scripture that says either way.

And so, you know, I actually think one, one reason could be is when we think about the issue of abortion.

I think back to, I'm trying to remember her name but I don't, there was a

Mormon mother who killed her six children if you guys remember this is, some of you may be too young to remember.

I think this is like in the 90s. Killed, killed all her children because she believed in Mormonism, there's an age of accountability of eight years old, and she wanted her children to go to heaven so she killed all of her children.

And, you know, I think that when you think of when we think of abortion. If all children, if Scripture said all children go to heaven.

Would we really have a good argument against abortion. Yes. Okay. What would that argument.

Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. Because it's not up to us.

When a person lives or dies we're not the author of life,

God is, he's in control of that. And so, it.

When we take a life and innocent life, which a child is yes that is murder and so yeah thou shalt not murder there's, there's your answer.

There's a, there's argument against it so regardless and I've thought about that too you know and I, you know, your mind plays your mind goes these places.

Well as is abortion. Really such a bad thing if all these aborted babies are going to heaven well yes it's a bad thing because it's not up to us.

God created that life. And so when we take that life we are murdering a person.

So, thou shalt not murder. But, but I do believe that that is one of the ways in which heaven will be so heavily populated because when you look at the.

When you look around the number of believers, true believers

I'm not talking about professing Christians like third of the world's population professes to be Christian. That that percentage is far far far far far far far far smaller.

I mean we're talking a fraction of 1%, a small fraction of 1%,

I think are truly regenerate on this planet. And I think one of the ways that heaven will be so will largely be populated is by aborted babies miscarriages young children in fact and as reading part and I'm not trying to plug anything here but as part of the research for my book that I wrote on this topic.

And I'd have to look it up, but I think about a third, roughly a third of pregnancies, a quarter for sure of pregnancies end in a miscarriage.

And so that's a lot of babies. That's a lot of, that's a lot of people going to heaven, just through that, even, even with like what you mentioned, you have, it's still an abortion but not one that's by a doctor someone but you do have children in the womb, who, who end up dying in the womb.

My child was that way you know actually some research that was done they believe every left handed person is a twin, because in the womb.

They were noticing that twins will mimic each other. And so the theory is that every left handed person who isn't a twin had it had a twin in the womb that that past is a theory they have, which would say there's a whole lot more than we know of, because people don't always get checked, you know, to see if they're pregnant.

You know, if that's true, I guess I'm left handed. Yeah, I mean that it was, there was interesting research they did on that and I know my son in law is identical twin, and one's left one's right.

Other than how much they eat. That's basically the only other way you can tell them apart, whether they use the right or left hand.

One of them is a little heavier than the other. But, but yeah, I mean, the, the, the flip side of that is, if you if you say no children.

Like there are, there's some Presbyterians not all some Presbyterians that would say that a child that is not baptized into the covenant.

That's what brings them to heaven so if they're baptized. The as a part of the covenant relationship and that would bring them to heaven.

The question becomes what happens to those that aren't, which would include all abortions.

And so that, you know, the person I was talking to didn't give an answer. Just said

I don't know. But if that would lead to. I mean, I know for myself and it sounds like for Brett, you know, having, you know, and Dom I mean having lost the child mine was in the womb and, you know,

Brett you yours was shortly after birth it sounds like and Dom maybe a little bit more but, you know, and Eve your, your brother.

It's like the thought that they would be in hell is hard to just wrap our heads around.

But, you know, the reality is, my position is, if, if God was to do that he'd be perfectly just in doing it.

It doesn't mean I understand it, but, you know, he would he would know, you know, better than me.

But can he like, I think, Dominic I think you brought up the election. I mean, could

God have elected them before the foundation of time. And in that take them in the womb for whatever purposes that he's that give him the greater glory in doing so.

I think he can do that as well. And then that would have, I think, I don't think,

Justin would disagree with that I think in the sovereignty of God and before the foundation of the world

God knowing the end from the beginning. I think, you know, God is able freely to do that and he, you know, he does all things well so these are hard things and I just,

I just, I put my trust in the Lord that he will do all things well better than I can kind of, you know, fathom this so I just think he'll do all things well in this case and it would be the right thing.

Well, of course he is. It's an easy way out right

Melissa. Yeah, I mean, there's no and like I said

I don't, on my position is there's not any clear scripture I can point to and say this answers the question.

I know others have have tried and I look at the passages and go, but I don't know that it's actually trying to answer that question.

How about the secret things belong to the Lord. Yeah, well that's ultimately where we rest on Deuteronomy 2929.

That's, that's good. Land there will be okay right Brett, I mean it's okay.

I'm glad that versus in the Bible. Yeah, I agree with you. I that is

Deuteronomy 2929 is probably my most quoted passage. When I teach systematic theology, because someone is going to ask something, and it's interesting when

I teach my courses on systematic theology. If they don't have it memorized by the beginning of the class.

By the end of the course they have it. Andrew I remember da

Carson said one time he says man if we, when we go to be with the Lord if we knew 10 we know 10 % of this we know a lot.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's where I'm Matt slick and I you know

I think I've shared this you know he and I, I've debated him and he's debated me more than any, any other person that we've debated, because we have a lot of differences but we people like to watch us debate because we're good friends and we can, you know, be cordial with it but one, one of the questions we're on an apologetics cruise, and he and I were doing a debate on dispensationalism and new covenant or and covenant theology.

And someone asked the question during the q amp a and said, How can you guys can debate these things you feel strongly about.

And yet you don't get mad at each other and Matt had a great answer. He says, because we both know we're wrong.

We don't know where we're wrong. If we knew where we're wrong, we would correct it but we both know that when we stand before God he's going to correct us in different areas.

And, you know, knowing that it just helps us that it's not a pride issue that I have to be right, because I might not be, you know, and, you know,

I really thought that was a good, good response and he was right. So, um, or Eve you got your hand up.

Yeah, I am. I've been listening in, as I said, and you allowed me to talk earlier that I didn't really have a, a huge position on this theologically but I want to move it to a slightly different place we're talking about infants in the womb infants just born, the age of age of accountability and that matter where they've not actually lived lives yet, but I'm thinking also this question does come into the severely mentally disabled people who were born with, you know, massive issues with their brains that never had a chance to think logically or rationally about anything.

People who are very simplistic in their thinking because of, you know, genetic disorders or whatever that they are living the curse, they, they, the reason that they were born with those is because of the, the touch of sin on our genetic code and, and what has turned us into the sinful human beings that we are.

And so I'm curious to hear what, how each of you would apply what we've just spoken about with infants to people who are severely mentally disabled.

Brett, your hand is up. Yeah, my wife works with some of the mentally disabled and her and I had the same conversation the other day.

So I told her what the topic was going to be about. And she said, what did she say she said, when it comes to the age of accountability it all depends on what their level of thinking is that when it comes to the mentally disabled someone could have be on the age level of a five year old and someone could be on the age level of a 20 year old, and it goes, like she said, she said it goes on a person by person basis when it comes to the age of accountability and, and if they can accept

Christ as their Savior, because if they're on the age of a five year old they don't know right from wrong they can't, they can't ask

Christ into their heart if they don't know the difference between what right and wrong. I thought that was a really good statement she said and I agreed with her.

I agree to agree that God's sovereign grace he extends, not only to babies into young children but also those who are severely mentally disabled we're not talking about a minor learning disability we're not talking about somebody maybe who's dyslexic or something like but we're talking about severely mentally mentally retarded.

It's probably not a good word to use but anyway, someone who just doesn't, you know, has the body of an adult with the mind of a child.

Yeah, basically. So, yeah, I think they would they would fall into those

Jonah, the Jonah 411 those who, who do not know the difference between the right and their left.

Yeah. Yeah, I would, I would agree I think that whatever the, the answer is for babies in the womb, young children

I, I agree that it's probably the same and I don't know if I've shared this story before on this podcast but I've shared it elsewhere is, you know,

I many years ago was in a church with a young girl who she was a year younger than me.

But she had severe cerebral palsy. She's, you know, she'll have the mind of a six year old and never go beyond that.

But, you know, I thought I'm a seminary student. I was out of work at the time

I thought I would just go and give the mother a break and I'd sit and read scripture with her daughter so the mother can get an hour to go shopping by herself or a full time caregiver and that's the work and she's single mom and, you know, and I thought like I would just, just try to teach the, you know,

Felicia scripture and the reality was is that I learned more about what it means.

To live by faith from Felicia than anyone I've ever met, you know, she might have the mind of a six year old, but she understood more than anyone, and I always,

I always tell that you know her cousin was Deon Sanders and I think that, you know, supposedly he got saved and I think it's because, you know, he had, you know, she would confront him like no one else would and just tell him to repent and, you know, because she didn't care about his status, you know, and I so I want to believe that if Deon is saved it's because of, you know,

Felicia who has the mind of a six year old but understands the gospel, you know, and maybe that's not exactly what you're saying

Justin because she actually can understand some things, but there's those that that can't.

We have a little girl in our church who has simple liposyndrome, and they she was diagnosed with it when

I believe she was three or four, and she was just reaching the age where she could be taught, and, and I don't know if any of you are familiar with simple lipo, but I was gonna ask you what it is, it's a, it's a, it's a genetic disorder, there's no treatment for it.

And it basically there's, there's a chemical in your brain, that is, that is broken down by enzymes, and it's like a natural fatigue chemical and children with San Filippo, the chemical that the enzyme that breaks that chemical down doesn't exist in their bodies, and there's no replacement for it, and so that that the, the bad chemicals build up in their brain and eventually, and it kills off their brain over a long period of time and there's, there's no treatment for it so since that that fatigue chemical in your brain never goes away.

They start, they mature normally until they're about three or four and then the, the, that chemical starts to build up to the level where it basically makes them go backwards about as fast as they grew up.

And by the time they reach their early teens it's fatal, and they, they progress from they, they were usually at the age where they have learned to walk and started to learn to talk, and then they lose both about the same speed, and eventually end up wheelchair bound, and, and then pass away become vegetables and then pass away.

And watching my family, the family in my church deal with this, and just the heartache that it's brought them.

It's a, it's a genetic disorder you carry it in the recessive, and you, and if both parents have the gene, then they have a 5050 chance that any child they have will have

San Filippo, and it's, it's just devastating.

But, you know, I watched them struggle with that because this little girl can never be taught about Christ because she can't, you know, she can't hold any of that in her brain, she can't hold any of that in her head.

And so yeah, I think it's, it's a comfort to know that God is not going to judge this little girl, because she's never, he, as I said earlier when

I introduced the topic, they're living the curse of sin. We all live the curse of sin in one way or another but when you see children that are severely disabled, you know that that they're having a special trial with with the curse of sin.

And if they were given the option, they would reject it because they, they know, with every iota of their body, how awful sin is because they're, they're living that curse.

Yeah. Well, let's anyone else want before we move to age of accountability. Don were you going to say something.

Yeah, just you know these are when you listen to these things. You know, you just think about our own lives

I mean how we can mentally assess things and we just got to be so grateful to God, I mean, and just, it's just because that that's really what

I deserve I deserve all that and more and I just, just to have our mental capacity and be able to think and be able to talk about these things is, is just a gift from God so I just,

I appreciate that Eve that's a, you know, and I know we're supposed to separate our emotion but thank

God we, we can, you know, we can just, you know, feel for a brother or sister like that and the family like that because there are some people in this world that don't feel for anything and I think at one time in my life, spending 2530 years in prison.

I had no care about anything so I appreciate that Eve, thank you. So I mean, what this ends up leading to often is when we say that a child would go to heaven is, you know, what point are they accountable for themselves like I said,

Mormons believe it's at the age of eight. Now where they get that's very interesting. Because in First Peter, speaking of Noah's Ark, that eight souls were saved.

That's where they get the eight years old. It's an odd hermeneutic.

Well, Mormonism is gonna have an odd hermeneutic in this story. Talk about, talk about Isaac Jesus, right?

I'm kidding. Oh, Melissa was like, it's good thing she's not on camera there.

She was losing it there. But, but it so let me ask you guys, is there an age of accountability?

What would it be? And I think, Eve, you already kind of tipped your hat, in a sense to say it's not a specific age.

You believe it has more to do with capabilities of knowledge.

So, if do you guys. So, you know, do you believe in age of accountability and if so, what would it be based on, if that way it's not, if not age.

If somebody can show me some scripture, I, I don't, I like to, you know, maybe, maybe,

Andrew, you got to show, let's hear some scripture. I don't know if I can see any, but maybe there is, you know.

Well, in my position, I don't hold to an age of accountability because I just go, I think,

I personally, I think that God would bring a child. Or even someone who's severely mentally challenged to repentance.

And in a way that we can't understand. And therefore they, I would say, I would say they get saved the same way everyone else does.

And that's, I guess for me, that's the big thing is I don't think there's two ways of salvation. I think that God would take those people and save them the same way he saves everyone else through regeneration to him doing a work on their heart.

Now, granted, from a more reformed or, you know, sovereign grace position,

I could, I could have that. If there's people that wouldn't hold to a view of that God, you know, does the regeneration act first, in a sense.

People that think that they can choose God, I think they'd have a harder time with that. But I guess then again, they would, some of those people like, you know, the extreme of that case would end up saying that people are born neutral anyway.

So they would say that they're going to heaven until I guess they would say they're going to heaven until they sin, which

I'm going to say is pretty early on. But what do you guys think?

Do any of you hold to an age of accountability? Well, I think if we're correct and that God does extend his sovereign grace to babies, to young children, then that necessitates an age at which they do become accountable.

Scripture doesn't tell us exactly what that age is. Some have speculated maybe it's as late as age 20, because it was oddly, the

Israeli army, not the current Israeli army, but the ancient Israeli army, a man had to be 20 years old before he could join their fighting forces, their army.

I'm not convinced by that, but I think the age of 13 probably holds more weight because it was then that young people, young men, young women were considered to be accountable to the law at age 13.

So I think that holds a bit more weight. But I even say in my book,

I don't know that we look so much at a date on the calendar, you know, like, okay, yesterday my kid wasn't accountable, but today he is.

I don't think you can do that. But I think somewhere in the neighborhood of 12 -ish, 13 -ish, that's when a child really begins to be able to grasp that his sin is committed against God, that it's treason against God, that it's not just something that mom and dad don't approve of, somewhere in that neighborhood.

But look for an ability in your child to grasp that.

So, like, I made a profession of faith when I was seven. I was not converted.

I thought I was, but I could answer all of the basic questions. Do you believe Jesus is the

Son of God? Yes. Do you believe he died on the cross? Yes. And that's the environment in which I was raised. So I intellectually believe that, but the gospel had not changed me.

And I did not grasp at that age, you know, that I couldn't grasp what a godly sorrow over sin was, what real repentance was, what it meant to deny myself, what it meant to take up the cross, you know, putting to death the deeds of the body.

And, you know, none of those things I could have understood at such a young age. So, anyway, that's kind of a long answer.

But I would say, you know, somewhere in the neighborhood of 12, 13, kind of be looking for that stage in your child's life.

Now, if your kid's 30 years old, oh, he hasn't reached the age of accountability. He's not accountable yet. No, no, no, no.

I mean, he's still in the basement and playing video games. But, Justin, let me ask you this.

Would you, Brad really like that? I wish people could see all the cameras.

But would you hold more, like you're talking about an age, but would you hold more like Eve was indicating, not so much an age, but mental ability?

Because, I mean, I think what you're saying is there's an age where people get. I'm assuming here in saying that I'm assuming a normal cognitive ability.

But do you think it's not so much an age?

And like you're saying, it's not like yesterday you weren't accountable, today you are. But do you think it's more because we do know people that have greater cognitive ability at younger ages than others.

And so could it be more of the, not so much the age, but the ability in your mind,

Justin? Me? Yeah. You're asking me? Yeah. Yes. Yes.

Generally speaking, yes. Yeah. More of an ability. And yeah, some kids mature more quickly than others, but.

Some of us haven't matured at all. And I understand that about myself. Yeah.

So, yeah, the age 12, age 13, that's just kind of a ballpark arena.

But age eight, I don't think so. Age nine? No. Andrew, I think

Melissa's got something. Yeah, I was going to go to her. Actually, I was going to go to her next anyway, and then she raised her hand.

Okay. Well, I guess this kind of begs the question then, what is faith?

Is faith a mental assent or is it a trust? And so for me, there is no age.

It's a matter. And that's why I think the Bible says that. We are to have faith, like a child and a child easily trusts.

Whatever you tell them, you tell them that Santa Claus exists and they believe that Santa Claus exists.

So for me, You tell them that they're really a girl. A girl, right. You had to tell them they're actually a girl when they're a boy.

Right. Hence the reason we shouldn't be telling five -year -olds. Okay. Right. So for me, like my mom says that I came to know

Christ when I was four. Now, I don't. Recall this, but I could. I think looking back, say that God gave me the faith.

My sanctification process was a slow one. And, and, and it took mental.

Ascent knowledge, understanding. All these things. And that.

That is, I think where we draw where I think part of the lines get mixed up.

Yeah. And, you know, for me, faith, a child can have faith. I mean, obviously

John the Baptist had faith, how much. I mean, who knows? He could have had so much knowledge more than, than we even know that he knew.

We just don't know. But for a child, I would say. Yeah. Yeah. Which would then lead to the next question about baptism, you know?

Yes. Yeah. It was a perfect segue. Yeah. You also segway. Perfect for. Justin.

Do you, you happen to. Nova book on Santa Claus, maybe that's out there. Is it.

Santa pause, maybe. I opened that door for you. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you, Melissa. Yeah. I did write a book on. On Santa Claus.

The title of it is Santa pause. A biblical examination of Santa Claus. And yeah,

I just. Yeah. Give a, what I think is a pretty compelling biblical argument not to do

Santa with your kids. But you're exactly right. You know, for you at age four, for me at age seven.

Did I intellectually believe in Jesus? Absolutely. I did.

But I also believed in Santa Claus and. And so my book. Do not hinder them.

A biblical examination of childhood conversion. One of the arguments I make is. We are trusting children whose intellectual capacity.

Allows for belief in a fat man in a red suit. Who is pulled on a sled by a team of flying reindeer.

It goes all around the world in one night. And we're trusting a child whose intellectual capacity.

Believes in that allows for belief in that. We're going to trust that same child. To wrestle with sin.

Repentance. Godly sorrow, grieving over sin.

Eternity. It doesn't make any sense. It doesn't. That is. So there's a big difference between a child like faith and a child.

Ish faith. I had a child. Ish faith.

In Jesus. I had a child dish faith. I did not have a child. Like faith. A child like faith is not just.

A blind trust. A child like faith. Is when you come to Christ and you realize you bring nothing to the table.

That you can contribute nothing to your salvation. That just as a child cannot contribute anything to his or her physical wellbeing.

They're completely dependent on their parents. They're. You know, they, a child doesn't go out and.

Hold down a job. Doesn't bring home the bacon. Doesn't pay the mortgage. Doesn't pay the rent. You know, a child doesn't do his taxes.

A child is completely dependent upon his parents. And so in a, in a, in a similar vein,

And I think that's the point that Jesus was making that we come. A child brings nothing to the table. Physically.

We bring nothing to the table spiritually. There's nothing that we can do. We're completely dependent upon Christ.

For our salvation. So, you know, in, in a, a child.

I've been all around the world. I've I've preached. I think now in 28 different countries,

I've been on every continent except Africa. And one of the things I've observed.

Everywhere I go, like I've been in. I've been in heavily

Buddhist areas. I've been in heavily Islamic areas. I mean, even as I speak right now,

I've, I can, I can, I've got images in my mind of, of going into heavily Islamic areas in South Africa and Uganda, some of these villages.

And I see Islamic man walking around with their white, you know,

Islamic garb. And their hat. I don't remember what it's called, but their white Islamic hat and their little boy walking beside them dressed just like they are.

You know, their little, little mini me's, you know, and that little kid believes the same thing that his dad does.

Why? Because that's the environment in which he was raised. That's all he knows.

And so it doesn't mean that he's in a, that he's internalized it and understands it.

It's just, that's what mom and dad believe. That's what all my friends believe. So it's what I believe. So, you know, if you were to take a typical kid who asked

Jesus into his heart at vacation Bible school, when he's six, seven, eight, nine years old, if you were to take that same child and raise that child in India, that kid would be a

Hindu. You take that same child, raise that child in Thailand. He'd be a Buddhist. You take that same child, raise that child in Syria.

He'd be a, he'd be a Muslim. So children adopt the worldview in which they're raised. It doesn't mean that they understand it, that they've internalized it, that they're committed to it.

So yeah, big difference between a childlike faith and a childish faith. Yeah.

And I would, I would definitely agree with you through all that. I just also see that that is one of the reasons why it's so important for Christian parents to be teaching their kids the word of God, because it's not merely my, my faith.

This is the word of God I'm presenting to you. And, you know, eventually I'm, I'm not one where my kids, all my kids are in their teens and they're not baptized.

We are, we are waiting for them to make it theirs. Right. But that doesn't mean that they didn't have that, that I didn't think that God didn't give them faith before.

I just have to wait and see whether it came to fruition. Right. By the way, she's got a copy of your book,

Justin, right by her side. So I've always thought that it's, you know, the whole concept of going to heaven on your, your mother's apron strings.

You don't do that. And I think it's one of those situations where, you know,

I, I was one of those children that went forward very early in my life and I couldn't, I couldn't pinpoint the exact moment that I got saved because I, I had the understanding.

And, and I think I mentioned this in the, in our thing on baptism that, you know,

I, I, my parents waited until we were wanted to be baptized as adults.

And I, I actually was baptized after I graduated from high school and I did public testimony and the whole thing, because at that point,

I knew that I was no longer holding onto my mom and dad's faith, that it was my own faith that I had put my trust in Christ and, and knew that it was my own sin that I had to repent of.

And I think that there is an age of accountability on that. I don't think it's a specific age. And I think that God has to bring every person to a point, maybe not necessarily where they're on their knees, that they've reached the lowest of lows, but they have to come to an age where they understand the concept of sin.

And, and for some people that, and we're all doomed by our sin.

I'm not saying that adults are not doomed by their sin, but sometimes that moment of grace that God gives us to know that we're not doomed by our sin, but that we're not doomed by our sin and that we're not doomed by our

And that we're not doomed by our sin. And that we're not doomed by our sin. And that we're not doomed by our sin. And that we're not doomed by our sin. And that we're not doomed by our sin.

And that we're not doomed by our sin. And that we're not doomed by our sin.

And that we're not doomed by our sin. We're not doomed by our sin. And that is. I guess the tradition of religion. Without understanding the heart needs of faith.

And I was actually just talking with an unsaved friend, a new friend that I talked to on a regular basis.

And we got on the topic of Baptists actually told her about this podcast and, and if I found out that she was raised somewhat,

I think it sounded like she was raised Catholic because she was baptized as a child and she just feels like, you know, she's got those bases covered.

And so I have my work set out for me to do some more witnessing with her and praying that God opens some doors for me to, to further that conversation with her because she, she's,

I know she's not saved and she has really no interest in religious matters, but because she went, was taken through those steps as a child, she thinks that, you know, those bases are covered.

And so we have to be careful when we're talking about the age of accountability, that there is something that we expect from our children who are raised in the church and who have lived with the tradition of the religious aspect of Christianity without ever actually being introduced to Christ.

That's a good point. Brett, we haven't heard from you in a while, so anything you want to add?

I was just thinking about my walk with Christ. I was raised in a Christian home and I was kind of force -fed the

Bible by my dad. He says he would make us read the Bible at like a certain time every single day.

And it was like, it was like the, like what Eve said is there was the tradition of, of religion.

But as we grew up, he changed and he started teaching us Christ and how to have a relationship with him.

And so when it comes to the age of accountability with that, I didn't really start understanding sin until I was like maybe 14, 15, maybe almost 16.

And that's when I started struggling. I'm sinning. I'm a sinner. And I struggled with that.

And also being a pastor's kid, I don't wish that, I wouldn't wish anybody to be a pastor's kid because it was the worst thing on the planet for me.

But anyway, as I got older, I realized I need to accept

Christ. And I didn't accept Christ until I became an adult. I think I was like 23, 24.

And I think I mentioned in my last, in the last podcast, I accepted Christ on my birthday. So I was born twice on my birthday.

So when it comes to the age of accountability, I don't know if there is an age, almost, it's almost like a, could

I throw this out there? Is it a mental age where they can really start understanding right from wrong? That's where, that's where my take is because I don't know if there isn't,

I guess I don't, my answer is, I don't know, because when I was thinking about this, when you said, when you brought up this topic,

I didn't have an answer for this because my age of accountability for me was like 14, 15, 16, maybe because I was force fed religion for a long time.

And when he started really teaching us about Jesus and how to have a relationship, that's when it changed for me.

Yeah. Well, let me, let me switch to, you know, Melissa kind of brought this up and Justin, you've written a book on this subject.

Your book, Do Not Hinder Them. You deal with, should we,

I mean, you're answering the question, should we baptize young children? But before we get to that, really where Melissa brought up and what your book is, and this is why

I encourage people to get the book, even if they don't have kids or whatnot. Your book does a very good job of explaining what is conversion.

And Melissa asked it about what is faith. And I think that really comes to be important as we discuss both from where we're talking age of accountability, as Brett just said, is it more just the mental ability leading into when should we baptize?

So let me throw this to you since you're the author that wrote the book on this subject. What is conversion?

When we talk of conversion and we're thinking of it in light of young children, right?

So what is conversion? Conversion is when the

Holy Spirit of God convicts someone that he is a sinner and in need of a

Savior and Christ is the only Savior and the Holy Spirit grants faith and repentance.

Takes out the heart of stone, puts in the heart of flesh, seals us in Christ, adopts us into the family of God.

That is conversion. And salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone and Christ alone.

But it's been said, saving faith is never alone. Saving faith always results in a changed life.

When God grants repentance, and a lot of people say, oh, repentance, the Greek word metanoia means to change your mind.

So you just change your mind intellectually about, you know, used to not accept

Christ, now I do. Well, salvation does include intellectual ascent to the basics of the gospel, but it is more than intellectual ascent.

Much more. When God grants repentance, everything about us has changed.

Our minds are changed, but our affections are changed. Our desires are changed.

We begin to love what God loves. We hate what God hates. We have a love for truth.

We have a love for God's word. We have a desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ.

We have a love for the brethren. We have a love for our brothers and sisters in Christ. And in this, all of this bears fruit.

It bears fruit. There is genuine fruit, tangible fruit, in keeping with repentance.

John the Baptist, therefore, bear fruit in keeping with repentance. Paul before King Agrippa in Acts 26.

So, King Agrippa, I kept declaring that all men everywhere should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

It doesn't mean we perform deeds in order to repent, but when God grants that true repentance and godly sorrow over sin, it will result in fruit, intangible fruit, and it will be evident to other people.

They will see a change in you. You cannot go from being dead in sin to alive in Christ and there be no change.

It's just not possible. The miracle of the new birth is just that. It is a miracle, and it should be demonstrably obvious to people around you that that miracle has taken place.

So, anyway. Yeah, Melissa? Yes, I have a question in regards to that that just popped into my head and something

I think I'll do more research on, but then it seems like conversion is, of course, coming after faith, right?

In the sense to knowledge of the gospel, trust in the gospel. Well, is there a difference then between conversion and regeneration?

Because isn't it the reformed view that regeneration comes first and then faith?

I mean, maybe I'm confused and maybe I got my stuff, my information wrong. Yes. Regeneration is a gift from God that he gives.

I believe he gives the dead and he makes them alive and then they can repent, you know, until someone,

I believe, gets the spirit sovereignly. God gives them the spirit. John 3,

I don't think you can repent until God grants you the spirit by grace.

So, let me ask this, and I'll give my position and then ask you this question,

Dominic. Is it a chronological ordering? In other words, is there a time difference?

So, my position would be, I look at a doctrine known as superintending, which we see in the doctrine of inspiration.

How do we get the scriptures? Well, God wrote through people. Did they write? Did they make the choice in the words?

Yeah, they made their own choices in the words. And yet, we don't say it's Paul's writing or Peter's writing.

It's God's word. Why? Because God worked through them that every word they wrote was exactly as God intended it.

And so, God gets 100 % of the credit even though they chose to do something.

Well, we also see that in sanctification. We see that. Do we do good works? Well, we choose to do good works, but we don't do good works.

It's because God is working through us so that the very things we are choosing to do are exactly as God intended it so that God gets 100 % of the credit.

I take the same thing with regeneration. I take that same doctrine and apply it there. I see that when people say, well, did

God choose or did man choose? I say, yes. And so, I see it as a simultaneous act that as God is bringing someone to repentance, he's doing that work.

They're choosing to repent, but their choice is not their own. Their choice is what God is doing through them.

And so, I would say that it's not a chronological ordering. Logically, I understand we would say repentance proceeds, but chronologically.

So, you'd first be regenerated and then believe logically, but I wouldn't say that chronologically.

Now, Dom, I don't know if you'd agree or disagree with that. No, I do. It says, but God, who is rich in mercy while we were dead in trespasses and sin, gives us a spirit.

Yeah, orders and things like that, I can't.

I don't. I just know that if I do believe it's a gift from God, I got to have the spirit to believe.

I mean, how that works in order, I'm not going to. You have to repent and believe the gospel, right?

There's sovereignty and responsibility. There are tenemies. I think that's what

Spurgeon said. They're kind of an antinomy. They're both there. There's God's sovereign, your responsibility.

You see them both in scripture. And when somebody can figure that out and answer that question, I'll be all ears.

Hey, did you guys notice, I don't know if it's Dom's Italian background or criminal background there. I give him a choice of agree or disagree, and he just says, yeah.

No, that's my, that's my, that's my. He didn't take the position. He makes sure he has the, yeah, yeah.

I said, you know, do you think it's chronological or not? And he says, I agree. To which one,

Dom? I, you know, I think, I think human responsibility and sovereignty are antinomies.

I think they, I mean, it's an antinomy. I can't, I'm going to, I think they're both there in the

Bible. You know, God is sovereign and man is responsible. Romans 9 and Romans 10.

Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Romans 9 and Romans 10, right? I mean, while we're in the womb and then, then repent and believe the gospel.

So if I'm hedging, I'll, I'll hedge. Okay. So you guys, his answer would be that regeneration and conversion kind of are, are together.

Okay. I would say they're simultaneous. Yeah. I believe they're simultaneous as well.

And in faith and repentance, it's, it's all God grants. Now I think conviction of sin.

I think conviction can come first. Yes. And I think it must come first, but when

God regenerates, he converts. When he converts, he regenerates when he grants faith and grants repentance.

That's all basically instantaneous. Now the evidence of that repentance will come later.

You know, the evidence will be borne out over time, but the evidence will come later. The actual repentance.

It's just, yeah, it's just kind of like, you know, it's all there at the same time.

Eve, you've been quiet for a bit. So I'll just see if you have anything you want to contribute. Just enjoying the discussion.

I kind of, I definitely agree with Dominic. I think I've been, you know, kind of forced by, you know, friends and colleagues over the years to pick a position over Arminian or Calvin Calvinism free will versus God's sovereignty.

And I've just always felt like both. It's like we can't be held accountable for our sin if, if we can't be accountable for our sin, if God just picks and chooses who's going to be saved and who's not without any personal choice on the part of, of the people being saved, then it, we're never accountable if we're not accountable.

But at the same time I do believe God is ultimately sovereign and knows everything so I've always kind of with Dominic they, they, they both have to happen, and, and one doesn't conflict with the other.

Yeah, and you mentioned the dreaded Calvinism and Arminianism words but what is it what does that mean.

Yeah. I was at a conference, and we, my topic was

God sovereignty human responsibility so I went through Romans nine and 10 and it's really funny because when

I went through it. I never used any of the, the labels Calvinism Arminianism the tulip none of that stuff.

And afterwards I had a guy that came up to me and was like, Oh, Andrew that was so great you you perfectly preached the biblical view.

You know the view that I hold to and I was like okay and then another guy comes up. Now the first guy was a staunch

Calvinist I mean, to the extent that he would almost say you have to believe in Calvinism to be saved. The next guy comes up to me and was like Andrew that was such a great message

I mean you just nailed the biblical position that I hold to so well. And I just looked at him and I looked at the other guy and I went yes really kind of funny they're like what

I said you're a hardline Calvinist, and you hate Calvinism, and you both think

I preached your, your, your position. It just kind of,

I think that there's a lot more misrepresentation going on in those in those circles, but let me move to the question, just one more if I may, and I'll be out of here.

Oh yeah so you grabbed a book over there from your, your shelf so yeah my new legacy standard

Bible. I, anyway, it's just, I had one

I had one that someone here gave me as a gift, and my wife, my wife now has it. You know, did you know the

NSAB came out with a 2020. Yeah, relation. I haven't looked at it yet.

Did you look at it yet. So it says here, I mean we know john six Jesus said

I'm the bread of life you comes to me will never hunger and he believes in me will never thirst and then in 37 all that the father gives me will come to me and the one who comes to me

I will never cast out. I mean, so, I mean this. There's that. I guess.

Yeah. So let me move to the final question we have for discussion which is, should we baptize young children.

And again, I mean this is really the crux of your book, Justin so I'll let you start off with, with discussion on this but you've, you grew up Southern Baptist, where baptizing young children was was commonplace.

Should we do such a thing, in your opinion. No, no we shouldn't we should not be baptizing young children in fact we're entering into one of the most dangerous seasons of the calendar year and that is vacation

Bible school, and I shudder to think how many thousands upon thousands upon thousands of kids will raise their hand and quote unquote ask

Jesus into their heart. Simply because their friend did it, they want to do it.

You know that that's what everybody else is doing and they've made intellectual ascent, maybe to the basics of the gospel.

And so they, they pray the quote unquote centers prayer after the vacation Bible school teacher leader, you know, leader of leads them in that.

And then the very next Sunday they're, they're in the baptistry being baptized. You know, and they're no more saved than Al Capone.

So it is Al Capone being both the criminal and Italian I mean it must have been directed to you

Dominic. So, yeah.

No, we shouldn't be because there is there is in Melissa was talking about this earlier and wisely so her own children they've waited.

And that's a very wise thing for her to do because you're not going to be able to tell with very rare exceptions you're not going to be able to tell in your young child, whether or not regeneration has actually taken place because one of the, one of the surest marks of the new birth is that and I'll paraphrase

Paul Washer here I won't directly quote him because I want to get it exactly right but Paul Washer has said one of the, one of the clearest ways you know that you have a new relationship with Christ is if you have a new relationship with sin and how you handle sin, how you handle real temptation and real persecution.

And, you know, you're not going to tempt a seven year old boy with alcohol or pornography.

Now you add 10 years to that age, then it's a different ballgame. There's different ballgame, but you're not going to be able to tell at age 6789 1011 you're just not going to be able to tell you're going to have to wait until they, they are faced with some real temptation, some real persecution.

And you see how they handle that. You see if there's a true godly sorrow over over their sin.

And you just won't be able to tell those things as a young kid. The Bible uses

New Testament uses adult sounding language when it comes to the pictures of the new birth that we see, for example, we are

Paul says that we are to be, we're to be soldiers in Christ right soldiers for Christ. You don't send a little kid off to battle.

You don't send a little kid off to war. That's adult sounding language. Deny yourself and take up the cross, taking up the cross that that is adult sounding language that is that is taking up the cross is more than just making it through a few trials taking up the cross across as a place of death across as an instrument of execution.

In other words, Jesus was saying you must be willing to die for the gospel. And so that is, those are things you're just not going to be able to tell in a small kid and small child.

That's not going to be evident until later. And so I encourage in a, in marriage, we're the bride of Christ right we're the bride of Christ.

You know if your little six year old child, your little six year old girl say comes home from school one day and she says mommy daddy.

Billy is my boyfriend and Billy and I are going to get married. You know, is that cute.

Well, sure it's cute. Is your little six year old girl sincere about marrying little

Billy. Well, as sincere as a six year old little girl could possibly be about such matters but but you're probably not going to pick up the phone and call the church and reserve the sanctuary for the happy occasion, you know, you're going to wait because she doesn't know what she's saying.

So wait, give them an extended period of time. This is going to be well into their teen years, well into their teen years before you'll be able to really begin to get a handle with that is if that is just intellectual ascent, or if that is the new birth, or if that is the real conversion.

And you'll be able to get a much better handle on that when they're in their later teen years.

So, if I were a pastor and granted I'm not but if I were a pastor. I would be really really hard pressed to baptize anyone under 1718 years of age.

You know, there's so many. I've heard just this past weekend

I heard of another story heartbreaking story I've heard so so many testimonies of, of kids who made a professional faith and they look like the real deal.

And I mean they were going to Sunday school and they're reading their Bibles at night and they look like the real deal there.

They're praying they're even witnessing and sharing the gospel at school, and they can you know they can give a credible testimony.

But then once they leave home. Once they leave home and they go to college.

Then, everything changes. Once, once mom and dad are no longer there and they're out in the real world, and their face was some real temptation, and they have some independence and nobody looking over their shoulders.

You know I it's heartbreaking. And so I've heard so so many stories like this of kids who sure look like the real deal until they got some independence, and then everything changed.

Yeah, you know I had my daughter was baptized. I forget if it was eight years old 10 years old.

And we, you know, she claimed she got saved and we, we were challenging it, my wife and I sat down with her.

I was not, you know, even though the church was would baptize many young kids, even younger than her and I actually, when

I became a pastor at that church I read baptized, one of those kids. When she was an adult and realized she wasn't saved when she was baptized.

But, you know, when I remember sitting down, my wife and I with our daughter, and really trying to understand if she had a understanding of sin and understanding of that there was some change that occurred and we came to the conclusion we thought she was genuinely saved.

Your book wasn't written at the time, Justin. I didn't have that resource available but you know we didn't just rush into it like many parents do.

We really wanted to make sure that we thought she was genuinely saved. Before we'd allow her to get baptized.

And I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you're saying that was to wait and give time if they're genuinely saved they're going to want to get baptized.

Because I know for too many people that think that because they're baptized they're saved. And so, you feel growing up thinking that Melissa.

So I would ask them to and I could see that an adult could easily fall into that situation as well.

So what should a pastor do that being an adult. Yeah, may

I Andrew. You just did. Oh yeah. So here's what we do here in Desert Sky so we don't know we are a reform

Southern Baptist Church. And like I says that we are going to the convention, this

SPC thing and we anyway we're wearing a lot of prayer right now and seeing where we're going but anyway.

What we do is we don't have anybody walk an aisle to join the church or anything like that how you join the church and Desert Sky is we bring you through a new members class.

We give you our theology we give you our statement of faith, we sit down with you for a couple of hours.

The elders of the church. Harlan is one of the elders that kind of runs a new members class.

And then we will make a recommendation to the congregation that we have been through the new members class, they understand the doctrines of grace they, you know, they, we go through this and we turn around and then we believe we follow act six and we we then ask the congregation, a recommendation from the elders that we recommend that they all members of the church.

Obviously we we pray and hope that they're regenerated but I mean, we do those things.

And then we ask for a vote, but on baptism, Justin and this is what we do and this is kind of maybe answering

Melissa's question and hopefully agreeing with Justin, we, if, if there's a older person or a teenager or somebody who's taking the class.

We don't, we don't initiate baptism we want them to initiate baptism we want them to come to us and say hey,

I've read the scriptures and I think I need to be baptized. So, that's how we operate here we're probably minority in the

Southern Baptist Convention that way. But we don't. Why are you laughing.

Because I think I agree with you. But so we don't. So when I get, you know, my, you know, when

I get text all the time about how many baptisms you did and I'm probably we're probably really low on the totem pole of that because we want somebody to come in and say hey, we've been reading the scriptures and we,

I want to be baptized because I think I've been born again and I've been regenerated and so anyway.

So, I think that's, that's very, very good. I appreciate you doing that I appreciate churches that handle it the way you, you just described that's very good.

We try but I don't know if that answer your question. It did very much.

Thank you. Um, but it would of course lead me to another question. I'm, again,

I have read Luther and I, I can see how he says that baptism is work of God.

Now, I'm not against what you all say I agree with that I would obviously we're practicing that type of teaching on our with our kids were waiting for them.

But I also believe that baptism is the work of God so when an adult who comes in and doesn't fully grasp all theology or all these things and I know none of you said that you have to, to be baptized, but I can't judge someone's heart.

Only God can. And when they fall like we have instances of the church of people in the church being cast out of the church, you know they were obviously probably had been baptized and we're in the church and then

God, or Paul says to, you know, give them over to Satan to discipline them.

Before that, I'm the way I would look at it is, you know, look like Paul does is like you're in Christ, your baptism.

God washed you clean God did this. Why aren't you, you know, living as if you are a new creation

Why are you going back to sin, this kind of stuff so. So then my question with the way we've all been talking is, how is it that God has a hand in baptism, then what's

God's role in it, based off of what you guys believe. Well I'm not

Lutheran so, or was it Lutheran. I mean, right.

So, so I think most of us here would be Baptistic right so a

Baptist perspective would be that baptism is an outward sign of a new word change.

And we wouldn't see it like if we go back to the episode we did on baptism. I don't think it's a sacrament

I don't think it adds grace I don't think that it is, I wouldn't say that it's a work of God I think it's something that someone does they get into the waters of baptism as a, as a sign to the world that they have been converted.

So I would, I guess I wouldn't agree with the premise that Luther would have anyone else want to respond to that or.

I, we do the same thing it's it's just basically a. It's just basically a symbol or a sign of regeneration being dead and being raised in Christ I mean

I think it's just an outward show of of an inward conviction. That's how

I would view it baptism, though I think it's part of the, it's part of the salvation story

I mean it's not, it's not, it's not salvage in itself but it seems like if you're truly regenerate, you know, why wouldn't you want to be, you see if you have anything more you want to chime in with.

I guess I would agree with what Justin and Dominic say that a child should not be baptized.

I think I mentioned in my last month's episode. My child after he passed away a priest dedicated him.

I was a little upset that he didn't ask us that if you wanted to be dedicated. I thought to myself that really did no good either way he was already already passed away he couldn't ask

Christ to do we could ask Christ to come into his heart you can use only 10 days old.

And so, when it comes to children, my children I waited till my children,

I saw that they had a change in their hearts and they came to me and said, Dad, we want to be baptized. And they wanted my their grandfather to baptize which

I thought was really cool. So, my dad baptized both of my girls.

I think once a 18 going off to college so I have that same fear that when she gets out into the real world that she may be pulled away from.

But I also believe that she's a strong kid she has a good head on her shoulders and I, I hear her talk now about her relationship with Jesus.

And I'm praying that she stays strong when she gets out there in the world she has been baptized by my dad.

And so when it comes when it comes to kids being baptized I say no. And we should wait until they asked to be baptized.

Yeah, and I know we've mentioned it, but I'm just going to give a plug for it is Justin Peters book.

Do not hinder them, you can get it at justinpeters .org. I'll put a link to it in the show notes but if you are.

Well if you're disagreeing with the position, then definitely get the book but I find that book will be helpful not just in the issue of okay when do we baptize children but like I said earlier.

It's an excellent book on just defining what conversion is so I highly recommend that that resource.

We've gone through all the questions that I and topics I thought we'd cover tonight. So I just figured

I'd open up the show hands if anyone needs wants to say anything, any other thing to that we didn't cover.

Okay, I'm not not seeing any so with that we'll just we'll close out so folks that you know check out

Christian podcast community .org that's where you'll find all of our podcasts if you go to Christian podcast me .org.

You can find the different podcasts that we have that we've talked about. They're all there.

And we'll close out with a promo of the Christian podcast community. So here we go. The Christian podcast community is a cohesive group of like minded

Christian podcasters proclaiming the truths of Christ with expertise and passion in the areas of theology, church history,

Christian living, evangelism, apologetics, parenting, homeschooling, sermons.

And much, much more. So check us out at Christian podcast community .org

One stop for all your favorite Christian podcasts. Who's that black