Do Babies Go to Heaven and more

Welcome to another Theology Throwdown. This is where all of the podcasters from the Christian podcast community are welcome to come in and discuss different theological positions that we have on different topics.

The Question of Babies, Children, and the Age of Accountability

The topic tonight is going to be, well, we're going to have a kind of gamut of topics. We're going to talk about children, though. So, do babies go to heaven? Should we baptize young children? And is there an age of accountability?

And if so, what is that age? I'm still wondering if I hit that age yet. I mean, just we're not talking physically, right? So, all right. But with that aside, we do this once a month. We hope that this is going to be educational for you.

We have several different podcasters who are here and will be in the discussion. And so, what I'm going to start off with is let each of the podcasters introduce themselves, and then we will get into some questions and topics to go.

So, I'm going to go in the order that I see on my screen. So, Brett, you are first up. So, introduce yourself,.

Your podcast, and I guess whatever else. Okay. My name is Brett Collier. I'm the host of the Christian Rebel podcast. Basically, what's going on new with me this week, I'm redesigning my website so I can input the logos from the Christian podcast community on there and have links to it.

And I just got done, just finished scripting the episode this week. It's titled Being a Godly Man, which is hard for some men in today's society because they haven't been really taught how to.

Be a godly man. No, our society asks the question, what is a man? Exactly. Next up, my favorite New Yorker, Pastor Dom.

Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me. Pastor Dominic Grimaldi here in, where am I at? Casa Grande, Arizona, Desert Sky Baptist Church, and I do a podcast called Street Talk Theology, simple. We just take theology and bring it to the streets.

All right, next up is Eve.

Hi, yes, I'm Eve Franklin, and I am co-host of the podcast Are You Just Watching? And I've also written the book Are You Just Watching?, which is a do-it-yourself book, really, where you learn how to watch your entertainment with a Christian worldview.

And we just released our episode on the Dr. Strange multiverse of madness just a couple of weeks ago. And we will be doing the Maverick movie for June. I've heard a lot of hype about Maverick. So as far as I go, I just.

Listen to your podcast, and then I feel like I know enough about the movie that I don't have to.

Go watch it. We watch them, so you don't have to. Yeah, most of them, I don't want to. After.

Listening to your multiverse one, I didn't want to. Melissa, you're up next. Sure, my name is.

Melissa Lex. I actually go by the name Melvitos on my show. My show is Thoroughly Equipped, and basically I look at women's ministry. We tackle the popular speakers, a lot of what they teach, and basically I compare them to scripture.

And right now, this whole season, we have basically decided to tackle the if-gathering and just really dive in and show how they just don't handle scripture correctly. And I will even be going into some of the critical race theory that's coming into the women's ministry through that.

So it's going to be interesting. Yeah, I was actually thinking.

Having you come on to Apologetics Live and talk about the if-gatherings, because I mean, I'm not, I don't follow women's ministry, so I didn't really know about it until your podcast. The next person up, well, there's not often I get someone I could play a little clip here before introducing them, so let's play a clip here.

12 seconds. Hi, I'm Andrew Rappaport from the Christian Exhibit. Let me do that again, yikes. I'm all ears for Justin here. That must be it.

Oh, yes, I'm very intimidated.

Justin Peters, welcome. I don't often get to play that clip. That was actually real. We were trying to record and that actually happened, so it made it to a bloopers.

Yeah, well, it's good to see everyone here. And my name is Justin Peters, and I have the Dedicate podcast, which is a Greek word for teaching or doctrine, and I'm an evangelist. I travel, preach, and teach.

Podcast, of course, have a YouTube channel, do a little writing, a little this, a little that, whatever people ask me to do, I'll do my best to do.

Okay, whatever people, I would like to see you take a walk.

I could take a very short walk on crutches. Yeah, I'd like to see you run. Running, that would be a tall order.

For folks that don't know, Justin has cerebral palsy, so he doesn't walk around much. But he can hit me with his crutch pretty hard. No. All right, so tonight's top, oh, I should introduce myself, sorry.

Andrew Rappaport, I'm the host of Andrew Rappaport's Rapp Report, that's Rapp with two Ps, so you can just search for Rapp Report with two Ps, has nothing to do with rap music, sorry. It is to give biblical interpretations and applications to all things in Christian living.

The other podcast I do regularly is the Apologetics Live, and that is a podcast where you can come in and ask any question you have about God and the Bible, because we say that we can answer any question about God and the Bible.

And when you ask me a really tough question, I'm going to go, I don't know. That's a perfectly good answer, by the way. So with that, let's get to the topic that we have. Do babies, can babies, or do babies go to heaven?

And I'll, let's see, we'll start off. And by the way, just for those here who, if you want to, if you want to speak, you could just raise your hand or in the emojis, you know, there's the little emoji thing that you can just raise your hand there too.

Where is that? It's under chat or something. I forget where it is, but you guys will have to find it. There's only one of you that needs to do that. So let me start off with Pastor Dom. And out of everyone here, I only know Justin's view on this.

So Pastor Dom, do you think that babies will go to heaven when they die? And if so, where would you support that in.

Scripture? Yeah, it's a tough question. I, you know, under God's election, you would make, you can think that, you know, God's elect will definitely be in heaven. And then the question is, and I know I've heard this before, you know, is that fair?

And I, when it comes to saying what's fair and what's not fair, I don't know if we're, we're a good interpreter of what's fair. So it seems like the people that by grace that do go to heaven would be under God's election.

You know, then in Isaiah, there's a, there seems to be a passage that looks like, and I know, Andrew, I don't know, looks like there may be an age of accountability, but that's a tough play. It depends if you, I don't know, taking that out of context in Isaiah, but we can discuss that later.

So yeah, I would, I would, I would say God's kind. He's a good God. He does all things well. But it seems like it would be hopefully, you know, looks like if they're God's elect,.

They're going to be with the Lord. Okay. Brett, ask you up next.

Yes, sir. Um, I would hope so. Because I had a son die after 10 days, he was born premature. I remember holding this body in my arms. I looked up at this poster on the wall. And I think God put that poster up there for me.

And it says 1000 years from now will not matter. And it says, God, you're absolutely right. Because I was angry with God for about five seconds. I was telling him, I want nothing to do with you anymore, because you took my son.

And when I saw that poster, it said 1000 years now will not matter. I had a confirmation in my spirit that I will see my son again. And I thought of that scripture to about when the disciples were stopping children from bringing, we're stopping the children from coming to Jesus.

Jesus said suffer the little children to come under me. So I think of that scripture. And it makes me think that kids will be in heaven. And I have to say I hope so because I want to see my son again.

And because I missed out on all those opportunities, like playing catch with a football and all those things that I had with my son. So I would say, yes, I believe they will. And I have to say I hope so as well.

Yeah, well, you're not alone in that. I think that's actually the verse that MacArthur uses. Eve, what are you what's your position on it?

I would have to say my position is I hope so as well. I have a brother who lived for 25 hours before I was even born. And it would be wonderful to be able to meet him someday. But I don't have any scriptural standpoint.

It's just something that I hope that God is as many children as sin has taken from this world before they had were of an age to know Christ and know his plan for them that they would have an opportunity to meet Christ and on the other side, if not on this side.

Melissa?

Yes, I do believe that children or especially babies go to heaven when they die. I actually think that there is some scriptural support. I think of David when his son died and and he said that he will see him again.

I think there's other scriptures, but I want to go like real deep into it. But I think there's other scriptural references that can support that they are innocent of not sin nature, but committing sin.

So my answer would be yes. All right. Justin?

Yeah. Oh, well, I agree with with these. It is my position that God extends his sovereign grace to children, young children, miscarriage, babies, babies who die in the womb, aborted babies. As I said, very young children, I believe he extends his sovereign grace to them.

It's not that they are not born with original sin. It's not that they're not born with a sin nature. I affirm that because scripture teaches that. But they have not committed volitional acts of sin. They have not suppressed the truth in unrighteousness, per Romans 118.

You know, a baby who never makes it out of the womb is not suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. It's not possible. And even children who can do things that are that they know are wrong, that they know that mommy and daddy don't approve of, you know, they hit their little brother or sister, they don't clean their rooms or something.

They know they're doing stuff that mom and dad don't like, and that might get them into trouble. But are they aware that they're committing sin against a thrice holy God, the one who created them? Are they suppressing the truth and unrighteousness?

No, no, they just have not reached a level where they're capable of understanding that. And so I don't believe that they are held accountable for it. It's not until they reach an age, and you know, that's another debate as to what that age is exactly, but where they realize and understand that they're not just doing stuff to get them in trouble with mom and dad, but they're actually committing treason against God.

So a young, young child is not doing that, has not reached that level yet. And certainly not a baby or, you know, an aborted baby or miscarriage. So Brett, I'm sorry, and Eve as well, I did not, I was not aware until a few minutes ago that y 'all had that in your, in your lives.

So, but I do affirm and fully believe that you will, Brett, you'll see your son again, and Eve, you'll see your brother again.

Appreciate that statement. I really do. Thank you so much. Yeah.

And so, Justin, real quick, though, because I know, you know, I've talked about what scripture passages would you go to, to support your position?

Yeah, there, there's several, there's a number of them. And I will say that not everyone in the reformed camp agrees with me, or most of us here does not agree. You know, there is debate about this, but, but there's a few of them.

One would be Jonah chapter four, verse 11. I think this is one of the stronger ones. God says, so should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120 ,000 persons who do not know the difference between their right and left hand, as well as many animals.

So God says there that there are 120 ,000 or 120 ,000 people in Nineveh, who did not yet know the difference between their right and their left hand. In other words, God is saying, should I not have mercy on these who do not understand that they are committing volitional acts of sin against me?

And so he extends his mercy to them. That's one. Another would be Ezekiel chapter 16, verses 20 through 21. Ezekiel 16, 20 through 21. Moreover, you took your sons and daughters whom you had born to me and sacrifice them to idols to be devoured.

Were your harlotry so small a matter? And then in verse 21, God says this, you slaughtered my children and gave them up to idols by causing them to pass through a fire. You slaughtered my children. They belong to me.

And so those are, there's some others. I don't want to hog all the time here, but.

We can. Yeah, well, so my position is maybe a little bit different. And let me preface by saying because I know that I have gotten into this many years ago online, and someone told me I was a horrible counselor for my position.

That how dare I ever talk to a parent who lost a child, and I tried to explain to this woman, I lost a child. We lost our first child still in the womb. And so I don't save my position without realizing that it's a difficult to hear.

My position ultimately is I don't know. I mean, that's ultimately my position. I look at, as was already mentioned, you know, I do believe children have a sin nature. I believe we, you know, it's very interesting.

One of the things, the thing I get the most comments about in my book, What Do We Believe?, is when I talk about man's sinfulness, and I say the first act that we do outside the womb is a cry of selfishness.

And so some people have difficulty or don't like that. But I believe that's what it is. And I think that I look at John the Baptist, he could, in the womb, recognize Christ was present. And how? Well, I don't remember everything that happened in the womb.

In fact, I remember nothing that happened in the womb. And I think I'm in very good company, because I think everybody here and everyone listening is in the same boat. You know, so my position is, could God bring someone even in a womb to repentance?

I would say yes. I believe that that may have happened with John the Baptist. I can't be sure. But, you know, could God do that? Yes. So my position is not that all children would go to heaven or all children would go to hell.

I take a position I don't know. So the passage most people will turn to is 2 Samuel 12, dealing with David and his child. The context of that, right, you have David was, it was prophesied to David by Nathaniel, by Nathan, that he was going to lose his son.

His son was going to die. So that was not a question. He knew the answer, but he prayed for seven days, fasted, pleading with God not to take the child in the hope that God would spare the child. And he did not know the answer until he saw his serpents, their servants were talking quietly, and he realized the child is dead.

And they were confused because he, having been, you know, so wrought with this, he gets up, worships God, and eats. And they're confused by that. And this line in here that people have where they believe that he's saying that his child will go to heaven, it says he said, speaking of David, and this is verse 22, And many people think that that is David saying he will see his child again.

Now a couple things here. One, if that's what David is saying, David knew supernaturally that his child was going to die. Could he have been told also by Nathan that his child would go to heaven? That's possible.

But more I think this is a Jewish idiom, just saying I can go to death, but the dead can't return to life. And so I would see that just as a Jewish idiom. Now, I was ready, more ready, I should say, for some of the ones that came up that like John MacArthur says with the bring the little children unto me.

And I just don't think that that applies to children going to heaven. I think that my position is I think that's a using an illustration of something to teach a doctrine. But Justin threw me for a loop.

Since then, I didn't expect in the Jonah passage. And so because the footnotes in that where it says know the difference of the right hand and the left, though, I would still say that that could still be speaking of adults.

But the footnotes, at least in New American Standard, agree with you, Justin, because they cite Deuteronomy 139, which says, Moreover, your little ones who said would become a prey and your sons this day have no knowledge of good or evil shall enter there.

And so it seems it's dealing with young children knowing the good or evil. So I will at least say that I think the writers or the translators of New American Standard agree with you. I don't know if I do.

So let me open that up because I gave I gave my position with a little bit more. And I'm probably in the minority here. Not not completely because I think I think Brett and Dom kind of agree with me. And he's like saying we don't know.

But we do. We would hope so. But I don't think I can say yes, for sure. I know that one woman told me I was a horrible counselor for saying that. So let me open it up before the next question to see if anyone has any comments on what any of us said.

I'll look for a raise of hands to see if anyone disagrees with me. We at least had some disagreement opposition, but I don't know if anyone wants to pick up on any of it.

Yeah, these are hard things. I mean, I you know, I still I still want to believe that God does all things well. And, you know, landing in that spot, I think is good. I think we know God is good. He's kind.

He's just merciful. So, you know, I I it's just a hard thing, Andrew. But I think that he does all things well. So I I I just, you know, again, I I lost a son at a young age to a very, very, very young age.

So, you know, I and I, you know, so I I pray that I believe God does does all things well. Maybe I'll just land. Well, I don't think we want to let our emotions.

Define our theology. Yeah. And that's one thing that I mean, there are some people that do that, but I don't hear any of us saying that. I mean, we're hopeful. Yeah. And that's a good point.

We don't want our feelings to get involved. I mean, that's true. I mean, we want scripture to dictate what scripture says. And, you know, I don't think there's I know there's some verses like Justin said and stuff, but I don't know if it speaks directly to that.

Maybe it does. But again, and you're right, we don't want feelings to get involved with theological thinking. So.

And I couldn't find the raise your hand thing. OK, well, you can raise your hand. I can see you because you got my camera there. I just was looking online. I found a scripture from Mark, chapter 10, verses 13 through 14.

It's kind of like the one I said, but it's a little different. It says and they were bringing children to him so that he might touch them. But the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw this, he was indignant and said to them, permit the children to come to me.

Do not hinder them for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. So I think that's a great one possible scripture that could show that children go to heaven because the kingdom belongs to them. And.

I have to believe that babies go to heaven again, I have to say, I hope so, because, again, like I said before, I want to see my my son again. But I was did some research real quick and I saw that scripture on my phone.

Yeah, that was the one I expected Justin to bring.

Up, because that's one he's he's brought up before. Well, like I said, I had others, too. I.

Just didn't want to hog all the time. And that's that is one of the others. That is one of the.

Other. And it's one that MacArthur points to as well. I forget, Justin, what's the name of his book?

MacArthur has a safe in the safe in the arms of God. Yes. Safe in the arms of God's really good book, a book that I didn't officially endorse in that I didn't like write an endorsement for it. But but I commend it to people safe in the arms of God.

It's difficult for me. And again, I agree, we don't base our theology off of our emotions or how we feel or how we think God ought to be. But it is difficult for me to to believe that, say, an egg that is fertilized, I think all of us would agree at the moment of fertilization, that's a human being.

Yes. That is a human being with a soul. It is it is difficult for me to believe that say an egg is fertilized and you have a human being now with a soul and say two hours later something happens to that fertilized egg and it and it dies.

So obviously that that person there, though he's a person, he's he has not yet had any. Any conscious, not even any thoughts, I mean, we know babies in the womb as they develop further, they respond to stimuli, they kick, they squirm, they even suck their thumb.

But after after just an hour or so, you've got just a handful of cells there, a person, yes, but just a handful of cells. It's difficult for me to believe that if something were to happen to that teeny tiny person that at that point is just a handful of cells, that the very first conscious feeling, thought, the very first moment of awareness for that person would be the blast furnace of hell.

That's really hard for me to wrap my mind around. I agree.

Someone, I thought someone else was had looked like they were going to say something. Yep.

Melissa. Just in my brief study of this, there's some things that I had just opened up my mind just exponentially and thinking about it is you did quote the the Deuteronomy verse about not knowing good from evil.

And I find that very interesting being that Adam and Eve's sin was eating from the knowledge of the tree of good and evil and how the Bible often describes our relationship with sin as knowing, being intimate with sin.

And I just found it very interesting that while Adam and Eve were adults, and we all there's also talk of children not knowing good and evil and almost as if, you know, extrapolating like they haven't been intimate with sin to where they would still.

Now, I know I can draw a line, so there has to be a line. People need to know Christ, the gospel is what saves. And but I feel as if the again, I shouldn't say feel, but I looking at the scriptures, it's almost as if the it's saying that they they're not intimate with sin.

And so God is a gracious God and they don't know evil from good. They can't make that. There's actually another verse that is Isaiah 7, 15 and 16. It seems to make the claim that children don't know and they reject evil, don't know to reject evil and choose good.

So I think that too kind of can you can extrapolate from that, that there's something different about the children not knowing evil, not being intimate with sin. But they also in those Matthew texts, it explains that their faith is a humble faith.

They trust easy and we are to be like them. So then that tells me that there's something that's different about the way a child comes to knowledge of God. That's very easy that we as adults, because probably because, you know, we we love our sin.

We know sin. We know good and evil. And so we we desire the sin. And so we hang on to it more. And so coming to Christ with a child like faith is different, you know, for an adult than for a child who can actually come and heaven is, you know, meant for them for that type.

Of faith. And Isaiah 7, 16 is also in that's the other passage that is cited or of course referenced in the New American Standard as well. So I mean, I think that I don't think there's any clear passage in scripture that says either way.

And so, you know, I actually think one reason could be is when we think about the issue of abortion. I think back to, I'm trying to remember her name, but I don't. There was a Mormon mother who killed her six children.

If you guys remember, this is a, some of you may be too young to remember. I think this is like in the nineties. Killed all her children because she believed in Mormonism. There's an age of accountability of eight years old and she wanted her children to go to heaven.

So she killed all of her children. And, you know, I think that when you think of, when we think of abortion, if all children, if scripture said all children go to heaven, would we really have a good argument against abortion?

Yes. Okay. What would that argument be? Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely.

Because it's not up to us when a person lives or dies. We're not the author of life. God is. He's in control of that. And so when we take a life, an innocent life, which a child is, yes, that is murder.

And so, yeah, thou shalt not murder. There's your answer. There's an argument against it. So regardless, and I've thought about that too, you know, your mind plays, your mind goes these places. Well, is abortion really such a bad thing if all these aborted babies are going to heaven?

Well, yes, it's a bad thing because it's not up to us. God created that life. And so when we take that life, we are murdering a person. So thou shalt not murder. But, but I do believe that that is one of the ways in which heaven will be so heavily populated.

Because when you look at the, when you look around, the number of believers, true believers, I'm not talking about professing Christians, like a third of the world's population professes to be Christian.

That, that percentage is far, far, far, far, far, far, far, far smaller. I mean, we're talking a fraction of 1%, a small fraction of 1%, I think are truly regenerate on this planet. And I think one of the ways that heaven will be so will largely be populated is by aborted babies, miscarriages, young children, in fact, and as reading part, and I'm not trying to plug anything here, but as part of the research for my book that I wrote on this topic, and I'd have to look it up, but I think about a third, roughly a third of pregnancies a quarter for sure, of pregnancies end in a miscarriage.

And so that's a lot of babies. That's, that's a lot of, that's a lot of people going to heaven just through that.

Even, even with like what you mentioned, you have, it's still an abortion, but not one that's by a doctor or someone, but you do have children in the womb who, who end up dying in the womb. My child was that way, you know, actually some research that was done, they believe every left-handed person is a twin because in the womb, they were noticing that twins will mimic each other.

And so the theory is that every left-handed person who isn't a twin had a, had a twin in the womb that, that passed is a theory they have, which would say there's a whole lot more than we know of because people don't always get checked, you know, to see if they're pregnant.

You know, if that's true, I guess I'm left-handed. Yeah. I mean, it was, there was interesting research they did on that. And I know my son-in-law is identical twin and one's left, one's right. Other than how much they eat, that's basically the only other way you can tell them apart is whether they use the right or left hand.

One of them is a little heavier than the other. But, but yeah, I mean, the, the, the flip side of that is if you, if you say no children, like there are, there's some Presbyterians, not all, some Presbyterians that would say that a child that is not baptized into the covenant, that's what brings them to heaven.

So if they're baptized, the, as a part of the covenant relationship, and that would bring them to heaven, the question becomes what happens to those that aren't, which would include all abortions. And so that, you know, the person I was talking to didn't give an answer, just said, I don't know.

But I mean, if that would lead to, I mean, I know for myself and it sounds like for Brett, you know, having, you know, and Dom, I mean, having lost a child, mine was in the womb and, and, you know, Brett, yours was shortly after birth, it sounds like, and Dom, maybe a little bit more, but, you know, and Eve, your, your brother, it's like the thought that they would be in hell is, is hard to, to just wrap our heads around.

But, you know, the, the reality is, my position is, if, if God was to do that, he'd be perfectly just in doing it. It doesn't mean I understand it, but, you know, he would, he would know, you know, better than me.

But can he, like, I think, Dominic, I think you brought up the election. I mean, could God have elected them before the foundation of time and in that take them in the womb for whatever purposes that he's, that give him the greater glory in doing so?

I think he can do that as well.

And that, that would have, I, and I think, I don't think Justin would disagree with that. I think in the sovereignty of God and before the foundation of the world, God knowing the end from the beginning, I think, you know, God is able freely to do that.

And, and, and he, you know, he does all things well. So these are hard things. And I, I just, I just, I put my trust in the Lord that he will do all things well, better than I can kind of, you know, fathom this.

So, so I just think he'll do all things well in this case, and it would be the right thing. Well, of course he is. That's part of his nature.

It's an easy way out, right, Melissa? Yeah, I mean, there's no, and like I said, I don't, my position is there's not any clear scripture I can point to and say, this answers the question. I know others have, have tried, and I look at the passages and go, but I don't know that it's actually trying to answer that question.

How about the secret things belong to the Lord?

Yeah, well, that's ultimately where we rest on Deuteronomy 29, 29.

I mean, that's, that's good. We can land there, we'll be okay. Right, Brett? I mean, it's okay. I'm glad that verse is in the Bible.

Yeah, I agree with you. Amen. Yeah, I, I, that is Deuteronomy 29, 29 is probably my most quoted passage when I teach systematic theology, because someone is going to ask something, and it's interesting when I teach my courses on systematic theology, if they don't have it memorized by the beginning of the class, by the end of the course, they have it memorized.

Andrew, I remember D .A. Carson said one time, he says, man, if we, when we go to be with the Lord, if we knew 10, if we know 10 of this, we know a lot.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's where Matt Slick and I, you know, I think I've shared this, you know, he and I, I've debated him, and he's debated me more than any, any other person that we've debated. Because we have a lot of differences, but we, people like to watch us debate because we're good friends, and we can, you know, be cordial with it.

But one of the questions, we were on an apologetics cruise, and he and I were doing a debate on dispensationalism and covenant theology. And someone asked the question during the Q &A and said, how come you guys can debate these things that you feel strongly about, and yet you don't get mad at each other?

And Matt had a great answer. He says, because we both know we're wrong. We don't know where we're wrong. If we knew where we were wrong, we would correct it. But we both know that when we stand before God, he's going to correct us in different areas.

And, you know, knowing that, it just helps us that it's not a pride issue that I have to be right, because I might not be, you know. And, and, you know, I really thought that was a good, a good response.

And he was right. So, all right, Eve, you got your hand up.

Severely Mentally Disabled People and the Same Question of Accountability

Yeah, I, I've been listening. And as I said, and you allowed me to talk earlier that I didn't really have a, a huge position on this theologically, but I want to move it to a slightly different place.

We're talking about infants in the womb, infants just born, the age of age of accountability, and that matter where they've not actually lived lives yet. But I'm thinking also, this question does come into the severely mentally disabled people who were born with, you know, massive issues with their brains, that never had a chance to think logically or rationally about anything.