The Here I Stand Theology Podcast Interview with the makers of CESSASIONIST - Les Lanphere, David Lovi, and Tim Cannon

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The Here I Stand Theology Podcast Interview with the makers of CESSATIONIST - Les Lanphere, David Lovi, and Tim Cannon

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00:22
Here I stand I Can do no other will you recant or will you not?
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Since your majesty and your lordships desire a simple Reply I will answer unless the things by scripture and By plain reason and not by popes and councils who have so often contradicted themselves a conscience
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Is captive to the word of God To go against conscience is neither right nor safe Here I stand
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I can do no
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I can do no other. All right, so we've got a great episode
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Landa we interrupt our program to bring you this important message
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Southern Baptist of a hundred and forty nine Southern Baptist churches here 90 of them started by Saddleback Church K and I Could have not built
02:37
Saddleback Church to its size and influence in Any other denomination?
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I am a fourth -generation Southern Baptist pastor my great -grandfather was led to Christ by Charles Spurgeon and sent to America as a church planter
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Saddleback was sponsored by the North American Mission Board I served on the staff of the
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California State Convention and the Texas State Convention as a teenager Billy Graham picked me up when
03:06
I was 18 and for the next 52 years Mentored me because I started at 16 years old hired by the
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California Convention to preach youth revivals And I had preached over a hundred and twenty
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Harvest Crusades before I was 20 We baptized 56 ,000 631 new believers and as a
03:36
Southern Baptist Church sent 26 ,000 869 members overseas to 197 nations
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It is not the gospel And it's being exported from this country to Africa and Asia Selling a bill of goods to the poorest of the poor believe this message
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Your pigs won't die. Your wife won't have miscarriages You have rings on your fingers and coats on your back
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That's coming out of America People don't ought to be giving our money and our time in our lives instead selling them a bunch of crap called gospel
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I've had the privilege for 43 years of training 1 .1
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million pastors That sorry friends.
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That's more than all the seminaries put together And now back to your regularly scheduled program all right, all right, so We truly have some a lot better content that we're going to get into tonight
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But we might as well get in on on the jabbing of the Rick Warren The best meme that I saw recently was the one that said when you look back and saw
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Only two sets of footprints in the sand. It was Rick Warren that was carrying you He's a true gift to the world
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All Right Yes This is the here
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I stand theology podcast We are a podcast dedicated to a pointed and spirited debate of biblical doctrine
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The here I stand theology podcast is a ministry of Reverend Mata Baptist Church Of which
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I serve as an elder amongst three three other elders there. We serve that body here in Knoxville, Tennessee One other thing on top of all that we are a member new members of the truth and love
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Network if you get a chance and you want to Peruse the interwebs go over to truth in love network dot -com.
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Check out truth and love Network It's a new and upcoming network Robert cannot has headed that thing up But tonight we've got the the makers of the movie cessationist with us tonight
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Cessationist will be coming out in 2023. Is that correct guys? Potentially Potentially, that's what we're hoping.
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Yeah It's still in the funding stage. So that's that's what we're we're hoping it's funded
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But so so we will be the makers of cessations. Okay. Okay. Yes 2023 is the goal.
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Absolutely Awesome. So we've got less lampyre up in the top at the bottom with the beard
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We've got David Lovi and on the other side on the bottom without the beard
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We have Tim Cannon He is apparently hoping that he can have a beard
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So guys we'll get we'll get right into this tonight If you all know anything about the here
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I stand theology podcast We begin when we have a guest on particularly first -time guests and we ask second -time guests as well
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Doug Wilson was particularly elusive in answering this question
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But I'm I'm expecting that you all will be able to be straightforward about this. So the first question
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This is really gonna set the tone. This is gonna set the mood for the entire podcast so of The three of you if you had to arm -wrestle who would win?
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I'm gonna say based on that that Tim would probably put you all down, right? Yeah, that's right.
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Just say He may not have a beard but he can beat you in arm -wrestling
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Very very good. That's a nice nice artwork. You got on your arms to Tim. Very nice.
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Oh, yeah So just a just a couple of quick questions moving through the icebreaker questions here
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Let's start with let's start with Tim since he since he's the winner of the arm -wrestling match hands down Let's start the questions with him.
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So Tim, who's your favorite reformer? my favorite reformer
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Probably John Calvin You know, I've slowly started working through The Institute's and I know you know,
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I saw a meme that actually said Rick Warren, you know I think it was said I think less posted it something along the lines of you know
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If it weren't for Rick Warren, you know, we wouldn't have the Institute's or something Pretty ridiculous.
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John Calvin says that Rick Warren taught him everything. He knows. Yeah So David, how about you who's your favorite reformer?
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Well, probably for me, even though my theology more aligns with John Calvin's. I love
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Martin Luther because I've been to his house In in Wittenberg and They've preserved it so well this table is still there
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Catherine von Boris necklaces hanging on the wall It's really really cool place.
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I think it you know, every every Western Christian should take a pilgrimage to And check the place out.
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It's pretty awesome. Yeah, and I had oh you guys are Baptists.
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So anyway, I might I might have Done done what Luther did back in the day.
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So I'm gonna say You're Presbyterian, right
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I am but what would you say? What I was saying was you guys as in the people who are the man who's putting on this
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This podcast is Baptist. So I see and I am too but uh, you know, what did you do?
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What did you do? I don't know. I did what Luther like to do. Oh I see.
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Yeah So late so less what about you who's your favorite reformer
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I thought you were trying to say you baptized a baby or something That was I Think that my favorite reformer we got to stay on brand.
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We got to stay on theme here The man that's really the greatest gift to the church is Rick Warren He's really my favorite my favorite reformer at this point
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I think that that might have been the better question when I asked your favorite heretic. Who's your favorite? All right guys, all right, so let's get right into it here tonight again
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These these men have taken time out of their busy schedules and just basically David particularly literally is apparently put on the brakes
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And stop driving to be on the podcast tonight, so we are grateful for that let's let's begin with just a little bit about the
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The idea for the movie cessation is so what was it a Was it a collaboration amongst all three of you?
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How did you all get together? Let's just let's just start with that. How did you all get together? I'm the new kid on the block
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So I'm gonna let them go first Go ahead Jim yeah, so I David and I are longtime friends.
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I would say from 2018 if that can be considered a long time We met it together for the gospel
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He was there with the Martin Lloyd -Jones Trust Promoting the sermons the teaching ministry of dr.
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Martin Lloyd -Jones And I got invited to go out to dinner with him and a couple other cool kids
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Matt Robinson for media gratia Pat Daly from Banner and I was like, I'm sitting with some cool people and I met
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David I sat next to David and like we totally hit it off and this guy is goofy and we became instant friends and It started really when
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I said, you know, we should make a movie and he said what should we make a movie about? I said we should make a movie about Beth and Lloyd -Jones the the doctor's wife and so we were
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It's like right on the cusp of start we were a week away from we were gonna start filming something and Kovac just really kind of put the you know, put the kibosh on that and so we had all this energy from coming off of that what we were gonna do and and David being a pastor said let's make a movie on cessation ism you know, he dealt with a lot and he can tell you dealt with the deals with a lot of the pastor up in North Chicago and so That's really where we we said, okay
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Well, let's what can we do? And so David you wanna you want to go from there? yeah, so yeah,
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I for probably the Majority of my life for sure the majority of my life.
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I didn't have too much of a particular interest in the doctrine of cessation ism it was only after I became a pastor and I saw how a
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False or bad Pneumatology really does affect the church in a negative way and and I realized that as a shepherd
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The under shepherd of my congregation that the Lord is entrusted to me that I had to protect the church from bad theology of the
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Holy Spirit and that that really set me on a course to First to really study.
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What do I believe? What do I believe about how the Holy Spirit works today?
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What what is he doing today? And what isn't he doing today? And so when when
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Tim and I were talking about making a film I had worked on logic on fire and that came out in 2015
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And so and that was the only film I had ever worked on before I mean less has more experience than than the both of us combined in terms of making movies
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But I was a producer on logic on fire. So Tim thought that I knew how to make movies because of that Which you know,
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I don't My skill set is riding on the coattails of others
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I Kind of do I mean, I know I know like a couple anyway, and so uh, so I thought you know
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This is this is a subject matter. That really is Deeply important to the life of the church.
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The Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead and he is working today and and I think people just don't really quite understand how he is working today and a lot of the
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Terminology around the Holy Spirit has been hijacked by segments of the church And and so so I wanted to make a film that would clarify those things.
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I Agree, I agree a hundred percent. So the the the term cessation is automatically in in amongst because I guess reformed theology in general kept being a
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Calvinist makes Automatically makes people dislike you right off the bat But that term cessationist seems to have a you know, it of course is given a very negative connotation by those who are completely opposite of the cessationist position but many times
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I would say as I put in some notes here earlier to that the even the
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Continuationists aren't truly Continuationists in the true sense of the term, but they are restorationists without even realizing it
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Roseboro Chris Roseboro. He said this Have you ever heard the major claim of charismatics and Pentecostals that they are?
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Continuationists and as I read this quote I can hear if you listen to much of Chris Roseboro You can just hear him speaking while people who are reformed or Lutheran or whatever believe the apostolic sign gifts have ceased
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That they are quote cessationist and cessationist equals bad and unbiblical while Continuationists equals good and biblical.
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He said that's all part of a false narrative Now a little bit of note here. He says
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I've said it before and I will reiterate. I used to be a charismatic Yes 30 years ago my wife and I were caught up in the latter rain movement part of the third wave of the charismatic movement and in the latter
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Rain, we were told about how God was restoring and had restored prophets to the earth and that God was going to be restoring in the near future
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Apostles to the earth and to the church. In fact, he said when you do your historical work
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You're going to note that charismatics and Pentecostals Historically have been Cessationists who believe that God has restored certain things like the charismata
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Prophets and evangelists and Apostles. Yes. That's what they actually believe
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Roseboro said. So even that term I think In the in the landscape in the
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Christian world in the landscape of Christianity We're running into the same thing over and over and over terms or words are misdefined and Reiterated and reoriented to be something that they absolutely are not
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So I that that's one of the the wonderful and beautiful things about I think about your all's film
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Cessationist is that you all are truly going with specifics from these solid
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Theologically sound men of God in the recent history I know y 'all no doubt go back to you know past history, but in recent history where you've got this being
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Articulated so clearly that's going to be such a benefit to the church Can I say one more thing?
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Yes, sir So I totally agree with everything.
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You just said that that word cessationist is and we're making a movie about cessationism
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Is is like we're trying to prove a negative, right? but important for us to make this extremely clear that Cessationists are not
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Saying that the Holy Spirit doesn't work today. Amen Absolutely does.
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Amen Cessationists are not typically saying that the Holy Spirit and God that God doesn't
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Do miracles today, right? That's right. It's happened. God answers prayers
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What we are saying is something very Specific and it is in some sense
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Very narrow and what we're saying is this that there were Apostolic sign gifts that were for the purpose of Showing who the
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Apostles were and confirming the Apostles authority to do and to preach what they were preaching
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Those things were signs of an apostle like we like Johnston says in In the trailer now that there are no more
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Apostles there are no more signs of an apostle That's right. And furthermore.
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We're also not saying That God doesn't do a healing or or even and I think even most cessationists
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Would say in some certain circumstance Could God give this gift of allowing a missionary in Zimbabwe to suddenly be able to Zimbabwean sure he can he's
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God he can do whatever he wants what we are saying is this that there was a time in church history in which
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God gave this gift of tongues and he gave this gift of the ability to heal on command and he gave this gift of prophecy to the
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Apostles to Confirm their apostolic calling until the word
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Was established and now we have the final word now We don't need a modern prophecy anymore because the
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Bible the canon is complete We don't need tongue or as a gifting because tongues were a sign of judgment
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Isaiah 28 says judgment against Jerusalem for rejecting their
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Messiah That was the whole purpose of the sign gift of tongues And so so our film is going to be making
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Lord willing if it gets funded We're we're hoping that it will it's we're on a good trajectory
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I think but our film is making a positive case for what were these things?
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How did God use them according to the Bible why do we believe that they're not extant today in terms of normative gifting to the church and also
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What are the things that the Holy Spirit is doing today?
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like the regeneration of men's hearts like the applying of the word to our heart like reminding us of Jesus words or Guiding us into holiness.
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The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Holiness Enabling us to live the
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Christian life not live outside of his empowerment Absolutely, not you look at Peter He's a different man after Pentecost than he was before Pentecost And the difference was because he's indwelt by the
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Holy Spirit and that same Holy Spirit is doing that same work of Regenerating men's hearts and enabling us to follow
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Jesus today that he was doing in the first century So our our film and I don't mean to go on and on about I know that's good
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Just to say that that our film is going to be making a case about the apostolic gifts
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But also about the true work that God is doing today in the world
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Amen. Amen. Yeah what you mentioned there? Jesus told and it's con it comes down to context right context context context context is key in understanding scriptures
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That's what you just described Jesus told Peter beforehand when you are converted strengthen the brethren, right?
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after Pentecost in here in Acts chapter 5 12 again, the the primary seemingly the primary argument that Continuationists and restorationists put up about the sign gifts that it should be normative.
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They want to quote Acts 5 12 But they failed to just read the context of the statement many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people true how by the hands of the
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Apostles and they were all together in Solomon's porch by the hands of the Apostles not by the common people not by everybody
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Because if it had been that then it would be chaos like it is now right
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So Tim As far as working this process out in and kind of just formatting this laying this out and In choosing your all's subjects for the film
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Your speakers for the film. How did how did you all go about that? Well, you know we thought at first Kind of we thought about who would be ideal for a project like this and I think early on, you know, we
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A lot of people in mind and our list has actually grown quite extensively but we started off by going to g3 conference back in October and the
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Lord just really worked in making all that come to come to be and everything from the timing of Interviews to the
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Lord blessing us with a ballroom at our Hotel that was gonna be like $600 a night and we got it for two days for free and just all these things just came to work together and and we
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We got the g3 conference and we were just able to to land some really solid
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Bible teachers and pastors Several that weren't able to do it then but they've already committed to to participating in this and so, you know, we got everyone from Josh Bice to Phil Johnson Conrad and Bayway was our first interview the first night we were there and and so it was just a real blessing to see all these guys who were like Absolutely interested and then there were some guys, you know, you go to these conferences and they're it's it's
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Everyone's under the gun. Everyone's under pressure to be here be there. And so we knew that You know, we were gonna be working against some people's schedules and things like that so everyone was real gracious with us
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You know, we went in January up to Grand Rapids, Michigan, and we got dr Joel Beakey and David Wollen the chief executive director of Reformation Heritage, so We've got guys that span all the nom, you know within reformed biblical
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Christianity. We've got guys Baptist Presbyterians We got a we're gonna get we're gonna get
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Chris Roseboro We had a really great conversation with him about this project And so we really just want the best that the church today has to offer
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That is fantastic that is fantastic so less so Calvinist spirit and truth came right?
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So was it kind of the same? Formation process for you as well working with these guys
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As far as the level or the the approach the creative approach to making this film
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Well, so for Calvinist and for spirit truth, those were ideas that I had rattling around things that I was very passionate about and I thought that I could do a decent job of Helping people understand those subjects and I wanted to use some of my gifts in You know some knowledge of filmmaking that I had at the time
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I thought it'd be cool to try to make a movie So I used Kickstarter for both of both of those films and people were very generous and they they funded the films so I was a one -man show from the funding to the
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All the production flying around the country editing, you know sound design all that stuff animation
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So this I learned there's a lot that goes into a movie And but I love it.
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It's it's it's awesome. It's so much fun but I was
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Not I was thinking about maybe moving forward not an idea and then these guys reached out to me because they needed somebody to edit the movie or Contribute animation, you know, they needed help
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So I said that I'd help them But I kind of put them on the back burner because I you know had other things going on I wasn't really sure and then as time went on I think providentially it all worked out because they were able to get some interviews together and then they brought me basically a rough trailer
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And I so I watched the trailer footage and I said no Let me let me take a stab at just like re -editing this thing and making it a little more punchy
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And so that's what I did shortened it up. And then as I was sort of going through that process I was like,
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I wonder if I wonder if they just partner with me. We just make the whole movie together And so that's the conversation we had and I also have experience they you know, they wanted to do a
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Kickstarter I have experience with Kickstarter. So it just made a lot of sense so the three of us just decided that we'd join forces put our strengths together like Captain Planet and So that's what we're that's what we're doing so we put the
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Kickstarter up Well, I two and a half weeks ago It's Kickstarter is one of the most anxiety inducing
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Experiences and you can go through because you get like really good days where it's like, oh man This thing's totally gonna make it and then other days get like a thing and like oh man, this is totally gonna fail so and with Kickstarter You so the audience knows it's it's all or nothing so if you don't raise all the money you get no money
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So that's that's a lot of you know, immediately as soon as you put it up you're like, ah, we should have
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Money, but the bottom line is we asked for what we needed to make it right? So if it doesn't get funded
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That's the Lord, you know, but it's up to the Lord whether or not it does but we're off to a great start
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We're ahead of schedule really but we still need help so if if people are interested
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Hearing what they've heard so far, you know head over to Kickstarter at least give the trailer a look and you know
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Listen to our pitch and if you're so inclined definitely help support it
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We think it's gonna be an important film. That's gonna be a gift to the church. That was a great lead -in
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If somebody has the gift of miraculous healing
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Surely all he needs to do is to prove it, but let's face it we've been battling with Covid and the so -called miracle workers
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Went into hiding together with us Cessation ism is the view that certain miraculous gifts that stood as signs of an
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Apostle speaking in tongues healing prophecies interpretation of tongues gifts like that ceased with the
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Apostles cessationism has fallen out of favor and because Commitment to the authority of Scripture has fallen out of favor
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When you turn on Christian TV, you don't see Expositors of Scripture John MacArthur or Steve Lawson, you see
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Joel Osteen Joseph Prince Kenneth Copeland Benningham Joyce Meyer Paula White. That's who you see because that's the mainstream
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Speaking in tongues. You're gonna speak out of your spirit. Don't worry about what it sounds like Our understanding of speaking in tongues must be guided by the scriptures not our feelings
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They were known languages that were capable of interpretation and not everybody speaks in tongues
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If God speaks it must be infallible inerrant and authoritative and the Lord said to me, will you howl for me?
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I Said don't ask me to do that Lord There's no longer the need for the gift of prophecy
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Speaking forth divine revelation from God. We have now the whole
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Council of God This word is the final word
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The apostolic gifts of God they were never intended for our generation we have everything that we need from the
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Holy Spirit today It's hard to get anyone who's gone through that to come back and take a serious look at faith in Christ focused on the gospel rather than focused on These phony miracles, all right guys, so what's the yet?
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What's the exact? Is there a Specific web address that folks can go to there
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It's it's kind of long just if you go to Kickstarter type in cessationist or you can you know, Google Kickstarter cessationist
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I am Realizing especially today. I was searching for it today. It's Kickstarter Definitely does not want
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People to see this thing it's like If you just go to Kickstarter go to the film page or whatever like it's impossible to find because it's like a
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Christian movie But anyway, if you go to Kickstarter type in the word cessationist
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It'll it'll bring it up or you can type in my name probably Les Lanphier. It'll bring up my profile page and If you know any of us on Facebook or anything and you know, we're posting it all the time
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So should it should be easy enough to find? Yeah, and and if you just go to the trailer on YouTube, it's in the information below that should take that Take you right to it.
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We'll include it. Yep. We'll drop it in the show notes here as well. So guys
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Just a couple of quick things as we wrap things up here again. I want to respect your all's time again
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Thank you all so much for being on with us, but guys so Bottom line
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What's the we'll start with Tim and work our way from to David and then the list and then we'll close out here today
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Tim Bottom line. What's your goal in your aim? For this movie. Yeah, mine is that That you know lay people
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I can can relate to this film and would be equipped I think all of us have that family member that cousin
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You know mom or dad, you know, my dad was a continuationist and he supported this film
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But you know, everyone's got relatives and friends that are on different sides of this argument and so to be able to equip them that this is something that just Someone in the church it doesn't you don't have to go to seminary you don't have to You know
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You don't have to be a teacher or preacher to be able to argue these things that that those are the people we want to equip
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That's what I want to see Awesome David, how about you? Yeah, I just realized that you have my whole
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CD collection up here On my visor. I have a Chicago Sorry about that If you got anything like this in there
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Sorry about that David go ahead, sir So my sincere hope in making this is that God may be pleased to use it in his church
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That it might be an instrument that Will stand the test of time
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That's the reason why someone like Martin Lloyd -Jones you can listen to his sermons today and they apply today because He's preaching timeless truths and We want this film to be about the timeless truth
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Of who the Holy Spirit is and what he does in the world in the post
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Apostolic age and so my my great hope and who knows, you know, maybe this is
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Maybe this won't happen. I don't know but my great. Hope is that 30 years from now the
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Lord would be pleased to Still be using this film That it would be something that people will be able to look back on even after we're gone and Learn something about God that perhaps they hadn't thought of before or they thought differently and that this film through the scriptures and the teaching of History and pure reason like like you're
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I like what you said in the your opening of this Program the clip that you have of Lloyd -Jones unless I am convinced by scripture and plain reason
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Here I stand and so what we're attempting to do here is to use both scripture and plain reason as well as the vast vast majority of church history the historical position of the church has been that the
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Miraculous sign gifts of the Apostles have ceased in and even even anyone who who believes that the cannon is closed
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There is a sense in which such a person is a cessationist Because they're believing they believe that the
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Holy Spirit is doing something different today than he was doing when the Apostles were alive
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Something is not going on unless they are saying that the cannon isn't closed, but I don't know too many
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Charismatics who believe that so so that our position really is the the position that the vast majority of the church has taken
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Throughout church history up until about 1904 or so and we're gonna talk about that in the film, too
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And I'm just hoping that the Lord can you will use it for his glory?
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We don't want any glory We want all the glory to go to the Lord Jesus Christ Amen, and let us how about you?
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main goal winning My I think my mission just as a filmmaker at this point
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I think that theology matters We I Don't want to make movies that are attacking people and you know causing causing division
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At least at least those aren't the kind of movies that I want to make right now. I think that theology matters and I want people
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Who are in the church? Heretics not not people.
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I hate you know, nothing like that. I want my brothers and sisters in Christ to think deeply about About the character of God and what salvation is really like and And I want to present it to them in a way.
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That's Digestible that they can sit down they can spend an hour and a half to two hours
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Get the gist of an argument and you think more than they've ever thought You know about some subject that at least
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I think is very very important And this is yet another awesome project that I have the privilege of working on Well, my prayer is that this gets done guys
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I'm looking forward to this man I mean, I'm totally looking forward to this So from less back around here less once rich deep theological truth to come through Tim wants practical application to be able to able to be made by the common
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Christian David you said glory to God alone. I don't think there's any better goal guys.
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I Appreciate y 'all being on here. Do y 'all have anything that you'd like to add before we jump off?
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Hey, I'll tell you what you you know where I'm at now as soon as you start as soon as you grow it
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You let me know we'll we'll get off and we'll update We're gonna be your progress
40:28
Guys Appreciate you pray for y 'all regularly if you are watching this tonight make sure head over to There'll be a link in the bottom here
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But if you want to go beforehand go over straight to YouTube right now look up the cessationist trailer Click on the link in the link below that that'll take you straight to their
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Kickstarter help them get this done We certainly are as well guys again.