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And welcome back to the apologetic dog where it's a heart's desire to contend for the gospel of grace that y 'all like that. New intro. One of the supporters of the apologetic dog said hey, we need to spruce that up a bit.
And so thank you, you know who you are out there. Today is a special episode because we have the fishbone in the building. What's going on?
What about it?
I'm fired up. Let's go. What about we just got to hop right in before we do Trey. I want to Inform everybody of a couple of announcements. I know you can't wait for this. But did you know Trey? I have a debate coming up in.
November oh.
You got one of them. You got one Caleb Robertson Johnny's little son. Oh Johnny, you know, he showed up at Apologia. They sent me some stuff. He showed up with a cowboy hat, but then they were ready for him Sunday, but he didn't show back up.
But he wanted everybody to think he was going to show up, but he didn't. I actually.
Sent.
Dr. James White the little YouTube short that Johnny Robertson put out walking in front of Apologia. Anyway, he just said oh, yeah, they got a chance to talk briefly. That's Sunday. So I had to make sure that he He knew that.
They're kind of you know in their midst. So that was good. So Caleb and I we're gonna be debating on total depravity. Have you ever heard those those words put together Trey?
Mm-hmm. I have no idea what that means.
Well, you'll just have to tune in to November 3rd because me and Caleb Robertson We're gonna get deep into it and no doubt. This is one of the big dividing lines between reformed Baptist Church Christ.
Understanding what is man? What is the Bible teach us about the nature of man. Is man inherently good or is man? Inherently evil and a rebel of God. So we're gonna get into those things.
Obviously, you know, they're gonna say that they're born perfect without sin just like Jesus was born and. Then you're gonna end up putting them in a hole like Aaron Gallagher was in where he had to say that Jesus was not fully God.
Because that's where it's gonna lead bad bad news for Caleb. But teaching hopefully God will open his heart and eyes to it.
Yeah, and usually those things don't happen in a moment. It takes time. And so yeah, we'll be praying for Caleb and I'll be speaking to the audience there. Actually, this debate will be in Virginia wherever they're at.
I'll be flying up there and this will be a live in-person debate and so everyone watching just be. Be ready for me to tell more information about this and I'm gonna be hyping it up. But it is coming to you.
Probably in Facebook YouTube all the stuff and I'll get to reupload it on my channel at a later date. But November 3rd mark your calendars, but Trey I have another debate also.
Look at you.
Well, you know, I'm in the dungeon right. I'm in the dungeon. I gotta do.
So.
With this debate. I was trying my absolute best to find a church of Christ Interlocutor, but it did not happen. So my good friend Lucas Curcio is Met he's a Methodist Wesleyan and he said hey, I'll debate you on if you can lose your sound salvation.
It's conditional Jeremiah not unconditional.
Hmm. Okay. My question is why do people want to fight so hard to have the chance to lose their salvation when the scriptures clear? That you can't. Yeah, is it to prove yourself?
To prove that you did it and maybe there's a sincerity that people just don't understand. And so hopefully I can bring clarity to The one who the Sun sets free is free indeed. Trey like to what you're saying.
You can rest eternally secure and I will say there are no conditions In the Covenant of Grace, which is exclusively the New Covenant. So we will definitely get into that. But I just wanted to let you know that The dog has been cooking.
Let's go, baby. I'm excited about watching.
Heck yeah, but I wanted to have you back on because you and I. Let me see if I can throw this graph it up. BAM we had.
Oh goodness, how long ago was it? How long has it been? I don't know. I was actually bored with that one. Did you notice I like walked off for like 10 minutes?
He might have got raptured and I went actually had.
Had me a little coffee cup. It was like in a little crystal Cup of Coffee from Jerusalem. Really it was stopped out very stout. But I had people ask me were you drinking wine or bourbon? I was like coffee from Jerusalem.
We have an unapologetic cat out there. I'm gonna say what's up cat? Because me and the fishbone we had to do a little bit of a review and so, you know We won't go super long today. It's just been a few weeks.
And so I wanted to let everybody know what's up out there and Kind of just notifying what's down the pipeline. There's a lot of other things other projects with the apologetic dog ministry and always got to include the fishbone.
And so there was a few things in this debate tray. I really enjoyed this mainly because I got to Say what about it with the fishbone in a two-on-two debate dojo?
So I speaking I look I hate to interrupt you. Okay, but do you see Michael Milne's text right here? I Can't tell you what he does for a living, but you better think you're lucky stars. There's people like him doing it.
But he asked who wins fishbone or Luke the bear. Did you see the the post on Facebook where I absolutely whooped Luke the bear? No, I didn't Mims tell him. I'll let him tell him. You can go to our you can go to our church Facebook page the parish of the Redeemer.
And you can watch live fishbone wearing out Luke the bear.
What a memes. It's been a while since I've seen. Oh Michael, so I can't wait to Michael noise again.
Alright, I'm sorry. I had to interrupt them. Go ahead. You're good. You're good.
Try. I wanted to just kind of touch on a few things. With our debate like I said, we won't make this long-winded but there there was a few highlight moments. So I'd like to maybe touch on a few of those and so the debate proposition was essentially asking the question Is water baptism necessary to wash away all of our sin past?
Present and future and One of the things that is just incredibly hard to defend from their end is how can baptism wash away future sins? Like the sin of apostasy walking away from the faith. However, you want to word that I know what these gentlemen were trying to do.
They were trying to say when when you're in Christ, all your sins are forgiven. But probably is you they believe you can apostatize all from grace lose your salvation all the the different words. Whatever you want to say, but we're saying that's a problem.
That's why the Church of Christ historically have said no baptism only washes away your past sins. So I want to touch on that point real quick from our debate if I can queue it up potential for them. Committing the sin to walk away also forgiven in baptism.
Can you recite that again? Yeah, so in light of the proposition When someone is getting baptized and all of their sin is getting washed away according to your position. Does that include the potential future sin of them walking away from the faith?
Hmm I mean I would again say those who are in Christ Try I'm about to get him all their sins forgiven and.
Including the one of them apostatizing. I see again in my mind that would be a.
Deeper understanding because that's them rejecting what God has offered. Just like when you look at Hebrews chapter 6 those who have maybe not that's in. They've fallen away because again those people have fallen.
I believe that you know, those who are in Christ. Nobody can come and snatch them out.
But that person can lose faith just like we've seen in right. Is that a sin? Is that a sin to lose faith?
Again it would be the rejecting of.
Rejecting is that sin? Yes or no? Yeah, like I said, it would be okay. Thank you. Okay, I want to have a question.
Yeah, I know. Shut up I.
Think the point got across. Because Zachary I enjoy both guys, by the way, I think they were very kind. Unfortunately, they are trapped in the legalism of the COC, but training. Yeah, I think everybody watching this understands.
There's a problem when you say baptism washes away the future sin of apostasy. Because now they're trying to steal from our worldview and try to have some type of security of being in Christ. And like we said earlier the one who the Sun sets free is free indeed.
We can account for if you've tasted and seen that the Lord is gracious. Well, no one can snatch you out of out of the father's hand the Savior's hand not even your own Will because it's been transformed.
Did you want to follow up on that? Yeah.
There's so much obviously the contradiction of his beliefs. I mean just it's an illogical thing to say that Christ died for all of our sins past present and future. But you can still lose your salvation.
Like how's that? That's not even possible unless you can say he died for a lot of your future sins. That would be logical because maybe not all of them, right? And the other thing is just the not understanding the scriptures not understanding the true gospel.
Not really believing that you have passed from death to life. Not that you are in the midst of passing and you can make a wrong turn. No, you've already passed from death to life. You have eternal life, right?
And by definition, it's eternal when you have it. And back to Hebrews. He's perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. And so those are Christians on the ground, but it is sad. Audio is low says Fergie.
Fergie Ferg. Okay, we may have to crank it up a little bit. We I don't know if this is a different Michael but there's a Michael in the side chat that loved the debate. Thanks so much. It was an honor to get to be with the fishbone and contend for the gospel of grace and so if you're new to the apologetic dog, please like share and subscribe and Go over to the fist fishbones channel and give him a subscribe.
So what officially is your channel name Trey?
The parish reformed. I'll put out a podcast every Six months or so. I Try to do them more, but I'm just it's kind of crazy around here. But uh.
Some good stuff. Oh, yeah. Well awesome. So I Really didn't want to spend just a crazy amount of time talking about The sin of apostasy and that gets washed away. If someone if they're gonna if Zachary and them are still going to contend for that Most people are gonna think well that don't work.
You know what I mean Trey? So I think that kind of stands on its own so I'm gonna go back and I want to talk about. Yeah, go. Okay. Let me.
Then you have fun. I want to say it was fun because we absolutely prepared zero. For this other than hey, look you you take the first shot and then I'll do the rest whatever it was just I Literally just got done playing nine holes of golf as fast as I possibly could and slid in there.
Turn on the computer.
Everyone in the chat let us know if the audio is good.
And if not, I'll see what. You burrito and fish bones make me choke that come on puber. Edo's. Yeah, just the bones I got you I.
Got you. Yeah burrito. You'll have to go check out the debate man. It was fun. And I try to let people know two on two debates are much different than one-on-one Debates because you have four people with a lot of firepower trying to get their chance to speak.
And I don't if you notice this but Andrew the one of the gentlemen we debated he was very quiet.
So, yeah, I know why because you know when he finished he said that he's been reading a lot of Greg Bonson and Cornelius Mantill and I'm like how can you read Bonson and Cornelius Mantill and Still be in the Church Christ and understand what they're saying, you know, so I think Andrew yeah.
He didn't talk a whole lot, but he was a nice guy super nice very nice guy.
Which I had a question for him because in his opening statement he he covered some of the context I would say tried to in the book of Romans and he tried to go the route many CoC go Of saying the works talked about in Romans train.
Well, that's just talking about the works of Mosaic law. That's all that's talking about. And so I wanted to ask him challenge his and this is one I do want to camp out on for just a few minutes, but I believe Romans 327 which we'll talk about it and unpack it.
I believe this pierces the heart of the CoC's false gospel because as we're gonna look at it this verse talks about the the principle of Faith that has always been the way that all saints of all time have been saved apart from the namas or the principle Of law and the principle of words.
So let's check it out. What about it? That's not bad.
What is your Second. I was those on the deal not me. It was me, but not me now. It was me then.
Okay.
Andrew yeah, I mean I would love to hear a little bit and Zach you're doing fantastic job. I appreciate it. But I have a question out of the book. Thank you. You want to chime in there? So look with me real quick to Romans 327.
Paul says then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded by what kind of namas law. By law of works. No, but by the law of faith. What's your understanding when Paul says the law of faith there?
So this is talking about. It's just talking about how we're justified by the works of Faith and not the works of the law.
All right, are you asking me about the context.
Well, I'm asking your understanding of what Paul means by the law of faith there. So the law of faith I would say Without having really looked at it. I would think it makes it makes my mind. Think of the first Corinthians.
I think it's 1st Corinthians 9. I can't remember the exact verse 21. I can't remember where Paul talks about how he's not under the law Of the old law, but he's under the new law the law of Christ. So I would say do you think that's the same?
Do you think that's the same context here. Do you think that's still the same context here? Paul is using the Romans 3.
Well, I know in Romans 3 in verse 20. He talks about by the works of the law. No flesh will be justified. I would say that's talking about the Mosaic law. I'm not sure if you agree with me or not on that.
So are you. But what's the law of faith here?
Brethren is posting is excluded about what kind of wall of works. No, they're by law of faith. Yeah, I would say it's. It's not by the Mosaic law, but it's by the new covenant law.
Okay, that's a good place to pause their train, okay. So I actually do want to talk about this verse. Why did I go here? Why do I think that this is so important? Romans 3, you know Paul's really starting to unpack the doctrine of justification.
By faith apart from any of your works any of your accomplishments and so here in this verse Paul says what then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded. So whatever theology whatever worldview you construct that there's any room for boasting.
You can better believe that that is not what Paul means here. And so this is where people that you know have a kind of doctrine of free will where they will say Ultimately I get to choose apart from God's sovereignty because he has reserved himself for this very moment.
I would say That particular Anthropology is actually going to leave room for boasting and so Paul is challenging the Jew who is looking to his own self-righteousness saying that I've been good Since my youth like the rich young ruler.
I have obeyed the law and upon my obedience to God's commands that is how I stand righteous and Paul is challenging that he said is there is no way to Fully accomplish that which is holy righteous and good by your own efforts in your own standing.
There's no boasting. You can't stand before God and point back and say look what I did. So Paul says then what becomes of our boasting it is excluded by what kind of law now I stressed in my question namas because I want people to realize okay this word law if you're gonna say That this means works of the Mosaic law.
Well, I challenged him further in the context and it was very charitable I think and kind of you know made it known that he was not familiar with the context here. But law has a you know wide range of usage and as we're gonna see if we try to shoehorn Works of Mosaic law, then it doesn't really make sense the point that Paul is stressing here.
But he's asking what kind of law by a law of works now he's not saying works the law works the Mosaic law, but he's talking about something deeper a Principle that the entirety of the Mosaic law rests on.
So I want to show you why I think he's talking about the principle of works the namas of works. It's because of what said next No, but by the law of.
Faith.
Okay now for a lot of people this will be kind of groundbreaking we don't have to unpack it all here. But the gentleman I was asking the question to he said boy Yeah the the new covenant law the law of Christ our obedience to that is.
What actually allows us to be justified before God now? I'm gonna show earlier in the context that actually doesn't work. But the new covenant the the covenant of grace now, this is where we part ways with Presbyterians it contains No conditions your works do not save you before God because in the new covenant faith is a gift that and it's it's all Grace in such a way where there's no ground for boasting at all.
And so the new covenant promise is not law because there is a distinction between grace and law and The gospel and once again grace and so this is something that I think the the Church of Christ Fail out they relate law and gospel Conditions and say your list of obedience to divine imperatives.
That you have to obey in such a way that that's gonna give you the right standing. And so before I turn it over to you, this is why I want anyone listening to consider Paul says no but by the law of Faith and so the reason why I don't think this is talking about the law of Christ in just a a different set of commands is because Law and faith are not to be intermixed, right?
It's Paul talking about law or is he talking about faith? Well when he says the law of faith, well, he's getting at something deeper. He's talking about the principle of faith. And so that's in and if we're right if the nomos of faith is the principle of faith well now we just have our Interpretation of by what law of works what he's saying by a principle of works.
He's saying by no means. It's always been by the principle of faith. So do you want to chime in?
Yeah, I think what Paul is doing here is what we're doing with the Church of Christ. Paul is telling the Jewish people With their Jewish understanding of the law that they thought that you could Gain righteousness before God by your works of doing the law.
They always misunderstood it by it was by them doing this religious system doing these things in this religious system. And if they did these things and do what God said to do that, they would be righteous in his sight.
But we know that no man is made righteous by the law and it was always by faith. This is why we can go all the way back in the Old Testament and show people. Everybody's always been saved by faith the first part of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Right, and so it's the religious system of doing works. So any religious system has things that you do and if you think by doing those guess what that's going to produce boasting. And this is why Paul like you're saying is, you know taking it back to boasting.
How are you gonna boast? Well, if it's all by the law of faith faith is not something you do. It's an inward belief heart. Change of someone and so that's why I couldn't answer it. That's why they can't answer it still today.
That's why the Jewish people couldn't answer it then that's why Jewish people today can't answer it. Go ahead, right?
You're exactly right because if we're understanding Paul here about by a principle of works. Well now we're getting down to brass tacks because when you know I debate Mike I saw and he did not want he it was it was not easy train to get him to define Ergon or gods of my works because anytime in Romans for him.
It has to be works of the Mosaic law. I just said, okay, that's a kind of works, right? What's the definition that's? Presupposed in The works of the law and I believe by what principle of works. Well, it's anything that you do in your obedience to a command now.
This is incredible because you know, we don't have to necessarily go to it, but Romans chapter 4 Abraham was not justified by his obedience to a list of commands. He demonstrated his faith because the just shall live by faith.
We have a doctrine called sanctification for them. But we are justified by faith, which is the antithesis of works. Of list of namas whether that be the Mosaic paradigm. And here is the thing that I want all of our listeners to be aware of.
I know that Romans 3 and 4 Baptisms baptisms not mentioned anywhere in there. We all agree that Jesus Christ Commissioned us to go into the world. Baptizing disciples in the name of the Father Son and the Holy Spirit.
This is another divine command, right? It is a kind of namas that you are to respond in your obedience and do something. Right thing is Trey. We are not justified before God on the basis of our participation and obedience to a list of commands.
This is what I want to tell people when the Church of Christ make their five-step formula in the fifth one. You know be baptized right go into the waters and you come out and you have your past sins washed away.
Then in principle if you say that that is the moment when you are justified then in principle train. They are returning to the old Covenant system of conditions that Paul said in 2nd Corinthians chapter 4.
There in chapter 3 that the Old Covenant was a ministry of death and condemnation never saved anyone.
So what I would add to that is. Where God took the law and gave us the gospel the Church of Christ has turned the gospel back into the law. Right. And so and here's another reason if you could just put me on the screen like not just me on the screen.
But me and you on the screen works bigger. I'm gonna read you something while the Church of Christ have a bad understanding of this. This book right here turtle. We're gonna be the turtle book. We're gonna be doing a thing on it.
I've reached out to this man who wrote it back in January and he said he'd get back with me. But he hasn't. I've given him a lot of time. But let me read you here on page 44. Our works necessary for salvation.
Question mark. Next sentence is one word. Yes. Some of this is their understanding. This is what I like about the book is like it's it's it's honest, right? I mean, of course works are necessary in that system aren't necessary for salvation that we are justified by works.
And so It just goes down to not understanding the gospel or grace or faith what these words mean. That's all I have to that. Thanks, sir. Just to show you their own preacher. Say no.
Well, this is why I mean you always talk about Context is king and you must must must define your terms and there's at least four definitions. That would say if you are equipped with these four definitions and understand General context with good systematic theology.
You always will be prepared for the Church of Christ and that's understanding the relationship between Justification sanctification or justified by faith apart from works declared right before God and then the just shall live by faith meaning that Justified by faith live out a life of good works in Sanctification that's the big key word to the glory of God and before other people.
And so the other one is faith and works. They just don't mean the same thing. They are related but they are distinct and you have to understand that in the book of Romans and so Romans chapter 4 the case study of Paul to prove that a person's right standing before God is not on the principle or namas of works.
This would cut the the Jews to the heart because they were trusting in their participation of Mosaic law in this also cuts through the heart of the Church of Christ doctrine because their understanding of the New Covenant is one of conditions and they've turned it back into law and so Romans chapter 4 starts out with Abraham for if Abraham was justified by not baptism not works of Mosaic law.
But if Abraham was justified by the principle of works He would have something to boast about now the whole point of Paul's teaching is to remove boasting of any kind right. And he wouldn't have anything to boast about before God positionally judicially before God Almighty who is perfectly Righteous and holy for what does the scripture say Old Testament?
Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness and here's the key train because right here I interviewed a Wonderful friend of mine. Dr. Jeffrey Johnson. I said, what do you think about those people that make Romans 4?
Verses 4 and 5 about works of Mosaic law only and not the principle of works. You know, he said he said hmm. That's ridiculous. We understand that no conditions you're doing your participation and a list of commands is the basis of our Justification before God Almighty that is the damaged goods of Roman Catholics Eastern Orthodox.
They deny that we should make a strong distinction between law and gospel but here's the thing if if Paul is making his case about Abraham who precedes Mosaic law and precedes You know the time of when we are commanded to be baptized in terms of our sanctification.
Well, of course none of those Imperatives are meant to justify us before God because Abraham precedes them both now to the one who Works, it's not necessarily the one working to obey the the Mosaic law.
It would apply to them in anyone else who has a principle of works. His wages are not counted as a gift but as his due and to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is Counted as a righteousness.
Yeah.
Well, here's what I add. I mean nothing not. I don't have to add anything to what you said it's perfect but Here's what I would like to ask a Church of Christ here is. They make such a big deal about the law.
I owe it's not the law. It's not the law. It's not the law, right? But they say it's it's uh, yeah, so it's not the law. You can't do the law, right. So you gotta look to Christ you gotta be baptized into Christ.
And so then they make this baptism into Christ a law that you must do in order to be saved. So my question is this right here if I ask them. Well, why are you have such a hard time with the law is the law?
Like tell me something holy if something is holy in the eyes of God. Is that like good or bad if something is righteous in the eyes of God? Is that good or bad? Well, that's it's good. It's holy and righteous.
So then you get to Romans 7 verse 12. It says so the law is holy. The commandment is holy and righteous and good. So If you want to do the law do the law but don't replace the gospel with law just do the law.
It's holy righteous and good. There's nothing bad in and of itself of the law. But the law gives you knowledge of your sin that you can't do it. But yet they change the gospel into law to something they actually can do.
And I think.
Moses never commanded baptism. So you're conflating a different system of religion with the the religion of Moses.
Right, but here's my thing. If the law is holy and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Can anything be better than that? No, it shows you who God is and this is why you can't live up to it.
So who cares if it says baptism or not, it's holy and it's righteous in the eyes of God. It's a picture of his character of who he is. You cannot do it. And so to replace the good news of Jesus Christ and Turning it into law as if something you can do like you can't.
And Michael Mims here asked a good question. And I don't believe it is the case. If you go up here to Mims he says.
Where is it.
Is the COC's believe in baptism directly correlated and or affected by their belief about original sin? Of course it is. See it when you have these talks with Church Christ about baptism. They're not gonna really get it because the first error is their belief on original sin.
So they don't they don't believe that they believe they're born perfect and because they're born perfect. It's all of your fault. While I'm a sinner if it wasn't for you I'd still be perfect. And so it's there they think that they can do it, right?
It's the Pelagian heresy. And so once you go left out of the gate. You got to go all the way back to the gate to go, right? But we're trying it we're down here in the in the middle of the pasture trying to fix it.
And it's really never gonna be fixed until you take me back to the gate.
And that's where they first left. Hi Mims. I don't know if you were here a moment ago. We were talking about some of the debates I have coming up. I will be debating on Defending the doctrine of total depravity with Caleb Robertson and we're gonna get all into the weeds about the Anthropology of how scripture describes what man is and in light of the fall.
And so I think you're right because this really hits at the core of it who is man who is God? Can we live up to his standards because I believe the entailment of the COC position is man is inherently good enough.
To obey and have a right standing with God by their own standing now. They don't want to use the term merit and if you're good enough. But we're talking about an entailment if we grant that we are just born perfect neutral just like Adam in the garden.
Well, hypothetically they would have to be logically consistent and say well, of course You are you have been gifted in such a way to obey in this in the world.
So I just wanted to to kind of bring but I think they need to really read Romans chapter 7 slowly.
Yes.
Before you go a fishbone because I'll wrap it up here in a moment. I wanted to talk about this. This was to me one of the shining moments that you had in the debate because we were asked we were asked Why is baptism in the passive voice.
And I recall you bringing up an example of what's not always in the passive voice.
Do you remember what he said? It was always remember. He said it was always in the passive voice. I was like, oh not so fast. Go ahead.
I want to play this clip before you head out and get some follow-ups with you and then I'll close this out after you sign.
Off.
Okay in the ceremony.
Even even though baptism for a person or two people is never active voice.
It is a work that would have to if we understand the the process that we are going into the water and we're coming out to say the all. The only time that the ceremony is a ceremony is when you're no longer doing anything is to miss the whole point of what the ceremony signifies.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I would also disagree that every time the baptizo is mentioned is a passive voice. Rise and be baptized and wash your sins away is not passive. It's a verb and yes a middle voice. Right the middle voice means it's the grammatical voice that signifies that the subject of the verb is being affected by its own action.
Or is acting upon itself. So if we're going to take acts 2216 We're saying that Paul doing this action in this verb of baptism is a passive voice. Baptism. Also, he is causing his sins to be washed away, but we know this is talking about a spiritual thing.
This is not talking about a physical. His sins are floating down the river. I.
Love that point Trey because you called him out on some malarkey. Baptism is only in the passive and so I tried to let people know how do we account for baptism being in the passive? And then obviously is it the middle voice where there is some participation going on?
I I tell people because the ceremony is not just the moment that you're passive of being baptized by somebody else. It's all it also includes your act of obedience to the command get up and be baptized.
Right. I mean look I love acts 2216, you know that. And because you have to jump through so many scriptural hurdles to make it make sense in the way that Church Christ understand it, but just the whole thing of rising me baptizing washers wash away your sins calling those name.
Obviously, this is a spiritual thing. It's not a Simply a physical thing of getting dunked in water because if it's just simply a physical thing Then you're saying that your sins are physically floating down The river as you get something this water.
Yeah, except that one. Although all of them, but that one right? Well, I mean, that's the thing is and here's the thing God love them. I just don't think they've thought about these things. You know, they stay in an echo chamber and All they hear is what they know and they just talk about amongst themselves and Hadn't really even thought through this passage.
Really, they all they they think through it in order just to defend it but not to see the truth within it. You see I'm saying right, that's how they go in the scriptures is just to defend things.
Something else I've thought about before you head out here because you mentioned acts 22 16. Baptism be baptized by bit baptized. Oh is not in the passive voice. So they can't stake a case on baptism being merely passed and I would argue there are paid-o.
Exercising repentant faith and so that's a whole nother debate. But I don't know if you can check me out on this, but I've I've always had this in the back pocket. But you nailed it in the debate. So I didn't feel like I had to bring this up.
But this is a passage. 1st Corinthians 6 verse 11 now on our side of the aisle. We talked about baptism of the Spirit a lot versus the ceremonial right end of in the water and to me I'm not dogmatic on a lot of the baptismal text that I could see context kind of going either way.
We talked about what's the principle being taught versus the application and to me, they're so closely connected. We'll say here and you might if you have logos pulled up Paul says and such were. Some of you but you were washed and so for the COC this has to be.
I don't know of any COC that wouldn't see this as the ceremonial right being immersed. But I don't think this is in the the passive either. Because I remember this is a.
This is a very Paris tense middle voice indicative of second-person plural. Yeah.
It's a middle voice again because I remember Gavin James. He was staking a case on this just saying well Jeremiah if you hold to modernism. How are you partaking in this. And I let him know. Well, we have an experience.
Right that we we have went from darkness to light. And and such were some of you who habitually, you know. We're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness and love sin as earlier in the context talks about but we were transformed out of that.
So we have an experience there. But the more I've thought about is how did how do they account for this. Because if this is a baptismal proof text? Well, it's not in the passive and I remember Our interlocutor he want.
Do you remember his justification. Because you immediately called him out on saying not. Baptism isn't always in the passive and he said.
Yeah, there's a few I might. Well you just said that there's none right. But this is the round talk to people about talking to the Church of Christ. Like they they go so fast and they just try to quote as many scriptures as they can.
They just try to flood you with scriptures all out of context where you can't even keep up and if you don't know scripture. If you don't know doctrine you think man, they know their Bible, but no. It's just they're using scripture judo on you and they're taking everything out of this context just to try to prove their points.
And so.
Well, I thought that was your shining moment. Like thank you doll. Thank you for me. Yeah, I was like, hey I got your back and the fish bones got my back too. So I really appreciate that the redneck theologian showed up.
That's right, I know you got to get rolling man. I'll probably cover about another probably one more clip or so. But we don't have to let people know that we're we still exist out there. Heck. Yeah, I'm still alive and.
Love it. Can't wait to see your debates. Thanks for having me on for a little bit. Y 'all stay here with Jeremiah. Keep dropping those. That dollar 49s up there for him. Get that money. He's making so much money on this.
You know Marlon, right? Yeah, Marlon's make that's how y 'all do it. That's that's why Marlon does it according to TT? And I'm gonna say hey to Aaron Gallagher out there. Appreciate you. Jeremiah really does appreciate you.
I hate that you won't debate him, but.
Maybe I'll change one day Trey. I bet you as I continue because I have plans. Trey. You know this for me to make a ton more. Content coming up just around the corner and I got a feeling that Gallagher is gonna be twiddling his thumbs and be like I can't.
I can't do it. No, I gotta step there. He's scared. He's always gonna have something to do. He's gonna die. Yeah, I want to but I just I'm too busy.
Yeah, okay. We'll see. All right, bro. We'll see you. All right pace. I.
Love the fishbone. I'll take this moment to ask you if you've ever appreciated the Apologetic dog content in any way, please like share subscribe it really helps me on my end be The channel grow and it motivates me to make more content and I really do mean it God has opened up some doors in my life in the recent past.
Just open up some doors for me to really expand this ministry. So, please don't be surprised if I make more videos and I really do want to try to do a better job of equipping people To interact with the Church of Christ.
And so I'm gonna start leveraging my website the apologetic dog calm. So just get ready and I plan on making some Coming out with some merchandise as well. And so be on the lookout for all that. Let me take this moment to see You people on the side chat we have still an Unapologetic dog that says I think he will come around and debate the dog one day.
See, that's that's the kind of hope we got to have. We get a hope in Aaron Gallagher that one day. He just says, all right I'll be ready to square up man. It'll be a good day when he does because I have a lot of questions for Aaron Gallagher about the covenants.
And so while we're kind of taking a breather here, does anybody have any questions. In the side chat. I just want to give a shout out to doki-doki Bible Club. I like this comment because see that coffee that coffee mug.
That's usually what I got but the sadness has happened. I'm out. That's okay. Tell me in the side chat if you got to see my debate With Trey against the two gentlemen on Marlon's channel and tell me what you think.
That was my second 2v2 debate and I loved it getting to partner up with the fishbone. I'll tell you our strategy was To I was gonna let Trey just have first at bats. I said Trey if you want to hop in there as far as our rebuttal time or opening statement and in the cross-sex if you Feel like just unleash.
I said you go first and I'll back clean up and so that was our initial game plan. And so like I said, we just had a blast, Georgia. What's going on? Thanks for tuning in. You got to love these random live streams.
That's why I gotta hit the notification bell. You never know when I'm gonna go live but and oh I just was shown that someone hit the thumbs down. So if you're in live chat, please hit the like button we got to combat them.
There's a number of y 'all out there. So like I said, we got to combat the thumbs down with some thumbs up. Thank You Doki. Doki enjoyed the debate. Appreciate that encouragement. Yeah, if you have any questions from the debate or if you see this as an opportunity to ask a question to the apologetic dog I will post it.
I'll post it and I'd love to interact with y 'all on the side chat. And so if y 'all need a few minutes to think on that I have Essentially one more cliff that I want to pull up from the debate. Me and Trey kind of last minute.
We're thinking about hey. We need to do kind of a loose debate review and I wanted to highlight that for one. It's an impossible Position to defend to say that your future sins are washed away in baptism and people don't understand this but leading up to the debate.
As we were kind of, you know talking the the five of us with Marlon about a debate proposition I kept wanting to say hey, let's let's y 'all defend Baptism washes away the path, you know your past sins or whatever.
And so I believe is Zachary say no I believe it washes away all of our sin. And all we had to do was ask what do you believe? You can lose your salvation. Well, yeah, he said you can forfeit it or walk away.
And we were like, okay if you want to defend that it washes away all your sin. Good luck defending them. Okay, we have a question. Such that appreciate it Michael. Why is it so hard for others to see the truth?
I do think this is an incredible question. Because when you have taste and seen that the Lord is gracious. We can't help but to ask sometimes how can other people not see it? And so there is a scripture that comes to mind that I want to maybe just camp on for a moment.
Let's see. So Paul says and 1st Corinthians chapter 2. Pull this up on y 'all's in so y 'all can see it too. Ah. We don't have the fishbone with this. That's okay Paul says. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person which is in him.
So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world. But the spirit who is from God that we might understand the things freely given us by God.
And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom. But the but taught by the Spirit interpreting spiritual truths with those who are spiritual and here's kind of the big verse I believe this is verse 14 the natural person.
I would say the person that's not Regenerate the person that does not have the indwelling Holy Spirit to illumine their hearts and mind the spiritual truth the natural person Does not accept the things of the Spirit of God for they are folly to him and he is not able to Understand them because they are spiritually discerned.
Okay, and I even like the next Part of the verse the spiritual person judges all things but is himself to be judged by no one. And so when you ask the question How is it that someone can't see it? They can't see the truth.
They don't have the Spirit of God. They've not had their heart illuminated by the Spirit to See the greatness and beauties and wonders of our Lord and Savior and what he accomplished on Calvary. And so I'm in my debates I tell people especially afterwards, you know, yes.
Am I going against an interlocutor trying to reason with them for logical consistency? Well, yeah I mean sometimes it's not hard to show a logical inconsistency on their end but they're just gonna they're gonna chunk it over their shoulder and say things like it don't mean that and my point is people disagreeing with clear scriptures that talk about how we're Justified by faith and not by works of law or the principle of works altogether and even Paul makes the case study with Abraham.
It's so painful. So painfully obvious that Abraham was justified not by a circumcision. Not by leaving the land of her or offering up his son Isaac on the altar, which is called a work. None of those things justified him before God, but why is it hard for others to see the truth?
They love their sin. They love their sin and Principles of legalism that makes them feel good and there's some room for boasting. And so good questions. Anybody else have a question out there? Hoping that this live stream will go somewhere in the ballpark of an hour.
So not an incredibly long live stream like said me and the fishbone. We wanted to do something and so and I was kind of itching to play my new intro song. So I'll probably close out with that so y 'all can hear it again.
Thank you, Michael. So Lafitte. It's funny. I've had Church of Christ if you go back, I think it's been almost three years ago I debated a gentleman named Brock Kendall and You know, I'm talking about justification by faith alone and the immediate objection is what show me the word alone and I tell them well the word alone with Justification by faith.
It's a theological conclusion so when we read things like we we are saved by faith and not by works like in Ephesians 2 or in Romans 4 that we The one who is justified by believing or having faith and not by works.
We could just say we're just about by faith. Alone, right? Nothing else is to be added in our working and in our doing and I remember This gentleman said solified and I said solo feed a like this is Latin.
So sometimes you'll see me add that spice. But I mean it in love. Oh Fergie. Call her Fergie. Christ rescued me. Lee and Ferguson. I always try to do a shameless book plug for Lee and she wrote this book.
Christ rescued me. Do y 'all see what's below that from the Church of Christ? And so I enjoyed this book she even let me interview her on this book and so you can find that on my channel and Fergie Ferg, she also has another book that has been released.
I believe miss Liam post maybe a link in the side chat and I'll put it on the screen. So anyway, I just thank you so much for your testimony. Thank you so much for helping people Understand that the Church of Christ, you know, it claims to be Christian and the one true church.
Usually there's red flags when I hear people say that. Helping people understand that no this this is this is cold Legalism that tries to say you must obey a certain list of commands to have. Most people say your past sins washed away in baptism.
And so she says I've had COC say the exact opposite of that scripture. They were saying one becomes a Christian through natural teaching not the Holy Spirit and so what's interesting about Church Christ at large is most will deny.
When I say most the vast majority will deny the actual ontological indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers is because they are the radical cessationist that Even though we may talk about what gifts of the Spirit exists today versus what were foundational in the early church.
They don't have a category for believers to be literally indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that's a problem because Romans chapter 8 says the spirit that tests the Holy Spirit that testifies with our spirit is How we have assurance that we are adopted sons and daughters of God.
And so if you don't have the actual Literal indwelling of the Holy Spirit and you're not a child of God. No matter how you try to skew it and say well when you read the Bible That's inspired by the Holy Spirit and when your thoughts have verses in your mind.
That can't be how we are Indwelled by the Holy Spirit. No, it's much more than that Jesus promised that in low he would be with us even to the end of the age all the days how by sending his Spirit to indwell his body.
And so thank you for that lien. Like said if you got a link for your new book that is out there I would love a chance to post that and talk about it. That being said I have Kind of one more point from the debate and like if you missed it me and Trey did a two-on-two.
We did a debate with to Church Christ on Is water baptism necessary to forgive all of a person's sin past present and future? And so with my debates interactions with the Church of Christ Inevitably, I always bring up.
Okay. Well, how would the Old Testament Saints say? Was it a different method of salvation and listen? They have to say yes. Because we don't see the command to be baptized in the same way that we see in the New Testament in the Old Testament.
So a lot of Church Christ as Leanne has written about in her books is it's a it's a new method of salvation. It's a better way. And so if you would Listen to my line of questioning from the debate. Zach thank you so much for your kindness, man.
I hope we're not coming across too fiery here. No, I love my new question. My new question is our individuals today Saved the same way as individuals were in the Old Testament. I would say there's a new covenant again.
I would say that Jesus effectuates that by the his cross. But there's a different there's a new and living way that we have access to God. There's new circumstances that are that's found in a new covenant again.
The death bearer on resurrection being now apply like baptism in the New Testament. You know John is performing a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins, but then after the death bearer resurrection There's a new understanding of this Greater baptism that Jesus providing that those who are in Christ are being actually buried and you know raised with Jesus.
So are you saying we're saved the same way as Old Testament Saints or is there a newer and better way? Is that your understanding of the new covenant?
I definitely lean towards that the new covenant does bring in a better.
Hope like I've already shown in the Old Testament. So a different method of salvation.
Yeah, so the sins in the Old Testament were continually being covered by the animal bloods. Whereas now we have the once-and-for-all Perfection in Jesus Christ. So now those who are in Jesus Christ are now perfectly justified.
So you so you believe in two Gospels two different methods of salvation. Is that a correct understanding of your view?
I mean again, it's still always the same in the sense of that. God had them to follow the law. You know follow these things. If they didn't they were to be cursed or to be kicked out.
They were so a way to follow that same law.
No, so now we follow what's given in the New Testament just like Peter's tell them to in the imperative He tells them to repent and be baptized in the imperative for the forgiveness of sins. I don't think that that exact phrase is found in the Old Testament that exact same way for the forgiveness of sins.
So that's why I would take the position that in the New Testament. We see this happening in the New Testament.
Two different methods of salvation you just said in the Old Testament They were to take they were to participate in ceremonies and be saved and now in the new covenant We it's the once finished sacrificed in Christ.
So that's two different Gospels. Wouldn't you agree?
No, so again, I would still say it's still like you are believing and doing. I mean I've said already that belief is a verb in the active was something that you're doing just like in the Old Testament.
They're still believing and doing something same thing in the New Testament. You're believing or doing so faith is.
Verb.
I'm not disputing Believing and doing. I'm disputing that we are not obeying the same list of commands like you're saying. Old Testament saints did a different method a different gospel of salvation.
Mm-hmm.
Sorry, I had to get a little fiery there, but I hope people see. If you have two different methods of salvations two different Gospels now ironically, I would say they are trying to make the new covenant Gospel promise into essentially the same False gospel of thinking that you by your working participation to some conditions divine imperatives can save.
The problem is and I really maybe I should bring up this.
Scripture.
The Old Covenant was a covenant of works. There's really no way around it and Since it was a covenant of works Paul had a lot to say about that on how you can't look to the covenant of works and Expect a salvation.
So like I said, let me let me try to pull up.
A.
Few verses. Oh.
Let's see. It's 2nd Corinthians chapter 3 as I'm pulling it up. I'll show you What's really important here is we're talking about the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and Paul says the Old Covenant is the ministry of death I hope y 'all can see it on y 'all's end and that is to be Contrasted with the ministry of the Spirit and so this the ministry of the Spirit is the ministry of life, it's the ministry of Salvation, which is the New Covenant who is a perfect mediator that saves to the uttermost.
It is a high priest who never fails to intercede on the on the one whom Jesus Christ intends to save and so that's why there's such a strong Consistency that this covenant does not have conditions to obey a list of divine imperatives and so the the Old Covenant the covenant of works was a ministry of death.
Galatians chapter 3 says it was actually a tutor a schoolmaster to teach the the the national Ethnic Israel people of God that you cannot obey To the point of perfection and gain access with God all that was lost in Adam.
And so all of this world is cursed by sin and death. So even our best obedience It's touched. It's touched by sin. It's touched by impure motives now praise God When he regenerates us by his spirit the the spirit intercedes on our behalf now.
So even when we obey or we repent or we do something the Holy Spirit is also Interceding on our behalf because we cannot be perfect. We are living a life of progressive Sanctification and once again, that is by the Holy Spirit carrying us along and so my whole point is the the Old Covenant was a covenant of works and Therefore it is a ministry of death.
Okay, and so Paul also calls the Old Covenant. I think y 'all can see it on y 'all's in the ministry of condemnation so actually the the Old Covenant Was a covenant of works and it condemned because wearing the sign of circumcision Signified that you could not circumcise your own heart you needed regeneration and that's where Deuteronomy chapter 10, I believe along with Deuteronomy chapter 30.
God says I'll circumcise your heart. I'll regenerate your heart in Transformant, but that is promised in the New Covenant. And so I that's where I think it's worthwhile Challenging the Church of Christ on if you have two different methods of salvation Then you have two different Gospels and that's why I always love love love love going to Romans chapter 4 because Christians are to be justified just as if I never sinned the same way Abraham was justified and so I want to go back there for just a moment Romans chapter 4.
I've I usually will also bring out that there's kind of three bullet points That I will highlight with Pull up the scripture three bullet points of Romans chapter 4 you got Abraham before the law. Right.
He that's why he can be the father of faith the Jews and the Gentiles because he is Not in a category of works of the Mosaic law. He comes way before that and then verse 6 you have David. He was under the law and so Paul continues to build his case by quoting from Psalm 32 well, David believed in impute imputed righteousness on the one who has faith in in Another right the the totality and finished work of the the Messiah that was to come and he is no longer has any sin Imputed on his account.
So David was under the law and then here towards the end of Romans. We have Christians. Paul identifies his justification with Christians that come after the laws fulfillment. And so this is so key of why we always look back to Abraham.
There is one gospel of grace not of works and conditions that you must obey. Or you're just not going to make it that's conflating law in gospel. So this is important Paul says that is why Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness, but the words it was counted to him were not written for his sake alone Paul says but for hours Christians also it would be counted to us who believe in Him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord who was delivered up for our Trespasses and was raised for our justification.
That's how we have peace with God is we look to the Savior and his finished work. That's how we have peace with God. We are justified all of our sins past present and future. We're totally nailed on Calvary.
And so my whole point here is just saying there is one gospel. It's the finished work of Christ the Old Testament Saints. They put their faith in the promise that God said I'm gonna send my son. There's going to be a singular offspring that's going to crush the head of the serpent trust in that promise.
But the same promise that we as true believers are trusting in we just know that that singular Offspring of Abraham of his name is Jesus Jesus Christ Jesus of Nazareth. You can't miss it. He is the one that fulfilled the Old Covenant on all the historic covenants that stack before He fulfilled all the requirement of the law with a perfect Obedience, that's all we plead with people.
Don't look to your own obedience. Don't look to a five-step formula look to Jesus Christ and his finished work alone. That's how Abraham was declared righteous and justified. That's how David under the law still justified the same way by faith apart from works and that is how Christians today.
It's the same gospel of grace the same way of salvation that all Saints of all time have experienced. So what y 'all think about them in? The side chat. Okay. Yes, I know miss yeah, I was telling y 'all about miss Leanne's new book so I just want to put this Miss Leanne we we are overdue for another interview on on this book.
So her new book that has just been released and I believe she said in the the side chat. That she's still working on a few things working out. She wants to make it affordable one day. And so she's still getting a lot of those things Worked out but it's called Christ rescued the thief's testimony.
From the Church of Christ. And what's so incredible about this book is it laser focuses in on the thief on the cross of all things? And what's so neat about the thief on the cross? We know the Church of Christ argumentation that well Jesus promised to save the thief before he died.
Well. Yeah, but justification has always been by a repentant faith apart from works. And so it doesn't change with the thief, but she just basically says look you have The you got on Calvary's cross the gospel right there and there's good textual evidence to say.
To show that the thief was probably a Gentile. Even Gentiles are being brought in the new covenant the only covenant the covenant of grace that saves to the uttermost and contains no Conditions so she wrote a book about how the thief on the cross.
Really the Church of Christ want to avoid, you know being pressed on on this issue because many of them will just say that. There's an exception to the rule here. Because Hebrews makes the case that the New Covenant was cut in the testators blood.
He existed in the New Covenant and yet he wasn't baptized, but he said to Jesus remember me in your kingdom. This is an expression of faith. This is evidence showing that he had a transformed heart that was trusting in the Savior and Leanne I'll go and tell people she asked if I would write a forward to that book.
So that was my first book. To contribute to some level in so thank you so much for that. What else are you people saying out there?
An.
Unapologetic cat. So I have and you notice an unapologetic cat is a self-appointed mod. See that wrench right there. He appointed himself. I appreciate that as a mod. And I'm unapologetic cat says apologetic dog.
Would you rather fight one? Jeremiah's dog or 50 dogs. That is hilarious. Not sure the context of that question. That is that is a good question, I'm left speechless with that and Leanne says the paperback book she's making very affordable.
Not very much as much as a cup of coffee costs these days. So you definitely check that out and Be on the lookout for me and miss Leanne. We will no doubt be doing and I want to interview her on that book before too long.
All right.
Thank you for tuning in to the apologetic dog if you got any final questions comments or snarky rebukes. I always add the snarky rebukes at twelve five church where I serve as one of the pastor and elders there To the youth and they always have some snarky rebukes for me and I love it.
I Love it. Well, if you've not Seen the debate that me and Trey had a few weeks ago Please go check it out. I enjoyed it. I really tried to press the point home that if you are Trying to look to your obedience to the command to be baptized and Continue to fulfill of all what the New Testament requires of us.
But you're looking to yourself if you're if you're looking the to the fact that your obedience as soon as it stops and you walk Away, well, I think it was John MacArthur said if you could lose your salvation then you would.
I mean that that gets back to If you think your justification depends on your effort. You're doing your obedience to a list of divine imperatives. Well, the whole point of God giving commands was to shut the mouths of all of man.
Because we always fall short. Even the command to be baptized comes out of the soil to love God with all of your heart soul mind and strength. And here's the point we fail at that. Even our obedience to being baptized does not meet the bar of perfection.
That's why baptism Sanctifies us it sets us apart from the world. The church sees how we are a set-apart child of God by faith and now are Demonstrating our faith in all of what God has commanded to us baptism.
I guess this is another plug. Tomorrow I will be doing a live stream on Lucas Curcio, I think I'm saying his last name right on his channel. And we may be doing it on Twitter. I mean, he's actually the gentleman that I will be debating Coming up in February.
So if I can find out Forgive me. If this doesn't pop up prop, there we go. That's right there. So Lucas is gonna have me on tomorrow and we're gonna be announcing to everyone our debate coming up in February on Can a believer lose his salvation?
I'm just telling you know because the one whom the Sun sets free is free indeed. But after we kind of hype up our debate, I really like Lucas. I definitely count him as a brother. I believe he's Methodist Wesleyan.
And so then he wants to ask me about baptism. Why I do not hold to infant baptism and why I do not hold a baptismal Regeneration view and we may talk a little bit about church history and something else that Johnny Mac has said.
And I believe James White to some degree is you got to let church history be church history. And so we must always hold the Saints of old to the standard of God's Word as our ultimate Authority and so be on the lookout for that live stream tomorrow if I get a chance to kind of post in.
The.
Area on YouTube where you know, I can kind of give announcements. I'll definitely let you know and then I probably will repost the episode at a upcoming later date. All right, I believe that is a wrap.
Thank you all for tuning in to the apologetic dog. And if you see somewhere in the logo You see first Timothy 6 verse 20. This is a beautiful verse that tells the Saint I know Paul is talking to Timothy basis Timothy guard the deposit that's been entrusted to you that is the gospel of grace and we do that by standing on God's Word because God's Word is Truth and that's able to equip our hearts equip our minds equip us to be able to rival those that hate God.
I want to suppress the truth and we remind them of God is the standard ultimately in all things. So with that being said, thank you so much for tuning in and please like This video like share and subscribe If this content has been meaningful to you and be on the lookout for more content more announcements.
Just a lot of wonderful things that I get to hopefully Lord willing participate in. Because God is just seems to be opening the doors for my apologetic ministry, and I'm excited. Thank you so much Everybody for tuning in and God bless.
