October 9, 2018 Show with Phil Johnson on “The Charge to Shepherds to Guard the Flock” PLUS Michael A. Gaydosh on “The Fear of the Unknown: Michael A. Gaydosh’s Recent Health Trials & an Update on His Recovery”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth. We're listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com. This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this ninth day of October 2018.

I had such a blessed time at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania on Sunday night. I was only able to attend the final session of their conference, their Reformation conference, with Mike Ebendroth on the theme, Why the Reformation Still Matters.

And providentially, when I just picked a pew at random to sit in and began speaking to my friend Joe Ignacio, who happens to be one of the sons of the woman who led me to Christ, and by the way, pray for Joe, he is not yet a born-again believer, so he has been attending church with me every Sunday with his own children and has been showing signs of being drawn.

But um Joe and I sat next to each other in the pew and we began speaking to each other before the service and a man turns around and told me he recognized my voice, said I love your show Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and it is because of your interview with Phil Johnson a year ago that I discovered this church and joined it.

And I am so delighted to hear things like that from time to time. I happen to hear about it by God's grace fairly often and was just glad to be providentially sitting behind this brother and his wife and new baby to hear that wonderful report.

But today we happen to have the aforementioned Phil Johnson back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. He is on for the first hour. Phil Johnson is the Executive Director of John MacArthur's Media Ministry, grace to you, and during the first hour we will discuss the charge to shepherds to guard the flock and the second hour we are going to be joined by Mike Gaydosh, the founder of Solid Ground Christian Books, and we're going to be discussing the fear of the unknown, Michael A. Gaydosh's recent health trials and an update on his recovery.

We're going to be talking about his trial facing very serious life-threatening and very delicate and complicated heart surgery that he successfully underwent and is now recovering and we're going to get an update on his recovery and what lessons God has taught him throughout this trial and continues to teach him.

So that will be, I'm sure, a very valuable portion of today's show during the second hour. But it is my honor and privilege to welcome you back for the first hour, Phil Johnson.

Good to be back, thanks for having me.

And just briefly for those of our listeners who may be unfamiliar with grace to you because we do have those who are new Christians, those who are outside of the Christian faith, we have even folks who are Muslim and atheists and agnostics and we have Roman Catholics and others listening to this program.

So why don't you tell our listeners about grace to you?

Grace to you is the media ministry of John MacArthur. He is a pastor who has pastored the same church in Southern California for 50 years now. Actually his 50th anniversary is coming up in February and he has taught systematically, verse by verse, through the entire New Testament over the 50 year span.

He is not only a pastor, but he constantly re-preaches old sermons and meticulously through the entire New Testament and written a whole series of commentaries on it and all that. The Lord has greatly used him worldwide and what we do at grace to you is take recordings and that's the basis for everything we do.

We started out as a cassette tape ministry and we don't even produce many cassette tapes anymore. I don't know if we do any actually, but of course we distribute mp3 files, all of John's more than 3 ,000 sermons.

You can download as many, all kinds of other resources there. Bible questions and answers, the radio and worldwide there is at any time, day or night, when someone is somewhere is not listening to.

Praise God. And by the way, I know somebody who still listens to John MacArthur's cassette tapes. My friend, Reverend Buzz Taylor, who has been in the past a frequent co-host with me. He has been on hiatus from co-hosting.

He's working on a book on eschatology and hopes to rejoin me more frequently in the future, but Buzz worked for a radio station and he got to keep whatever cassettes they played years ago of John MacArthur and he's got a whole archived library of cassettes of John.

MacArthur. Yes, there are still a few people who do that. I kept a lot of cassette tapes when it sort of went out of style until I realized, you know, I can easily download any sermon onto my iPhone and listen to it any time I want and it's actually better.

You might find this humorous. I.

Don't know what station this was that Buzz got some of these cassettes from, but some of them were handwritten with a label, Do Not Air, and they had to do with John's more overtly Calvinist.

Messages. Yeah, well, we get some of that sometimes. You know, and it's funny talking about the demise of cassette tapes. I have this vivid recollection of a management retreat that we had in 1995. The management team at Grace to You spent a weekend away from here where we were planning and talking about the future.

In 1995, I had just gotten on the internet and started my webpage, which became the Spurgeon Archive, and so I was brand new at the time, but I was noticing the internet and how quickly it was going to be taking what was going to happen, and John was at this management retreat and I made the comment sort of offhandedly, it's very possible that within 20 years we won't even be producing cassette tapes anymore.

Not realizing then, you know, how prescient that was, but John stopped the meeting at that point and he said, don't say that. That's the backbone of our whole ministry. So, but now even if he listens on his cell phone, he can review the broadcast or see preach or whatever he wants to.

Do. You know, it's frightening when I first started in the Christian radio industry when I was working for a Salem affiliate, WMCA 570 AM and also WWDJ in New Jersey that was purchased by Salem. When I first started with Salem in 1991, when I was editing ads or actually more importantly, when I had a client that purchased a full-length program, whether it be a half hour, an hour, or longer, and I had to do editing on it, I was actually using reel-to-reel on a razor.

Blade and tape. Yeah, we did that. We did that for years too. I, you know, you have those little things that diagonal cut and piece it together and we did that for years. Yeah, well you wanted.

To discuss, oh by the way, let me quick remind my new friend that I met at Grace Bible Fellowship Church. His name is Josh Tyson. Josh Tyson, if you're listening, Josh, please send me your email address so I can send you a recording of today's show afterwards so you'll be able to hear me recount the providential meeting that we had at Grace Bible Fellowship Church.

And I also want to thank the pastor there, Josh Miller, Grace Bible Fellowship Church, for orchestrating that event with Mike Abendroth and also the event a year ago with all of the pastors from the Bible Fellowship Church denomination that featured Phil Johnson.

That was a great time. Phil, you did a masterful job as always and it was a great time.

Fellowshipping with you as well. Yeah, it was. Josh Miller is a great guy and a good pastor and I've known him since he was a seminary student. In fact, he married my secretary. Oh wow, I did not know that.

Yeah, his wife used to be my secretary.

Wow, there's my Johnny Carson imitation. I did not know that. I did not. But we are talking about the charge to shepherds to guard the flock. You just recently, or perhaps you're still in the process of preaching through a series on that subject, what led you specifically to that subject?

Wow, you know, I don't remember what actually.

Triggered the thought in my mind, but I thought, you know, it'd be good. I pastor a group of 400 or so people. It's a subject that just concerns me as I read what's going on in the evangelical world and see what's on the internet.

I'm very troubled about the state of discernment among evangelical Christians today, and on two fronts, really. There are those who hate the very idea of discernment, who think there's something unspiritual or uncharitable or unkind about any kind of polemical critique of someone else's teaching or doctrine or whatever, and that, I think, is the predominant feeling, that we just shouldn't do that.

We shouldn't criticize other Christians and what they teach, and as a result, nowadays, anybody can teach anything. They can make any claim they want, and it's supposed to be hands-off. On the other front, though, there's a small group of people, a much smaller group of people, but they're noisy, who seem to think that the only thing they should ever do is criticize, and they just look for little things to criticize about and try to write people off, and that's as undiscerning as refusing to be discerning at all.

Anything they disagree about, and usually, I find, people like that who are just—typically, they don't even belong to a church because they can't find one perfect enough for them. So, dangers on both sides, people who are too enthralled with a bad idea of discernment and other people who resist the idea of discernment altogether because they think there's something unkind and uncharitable—they feed each other, too, by the way.

The people who hate discernment always point to the hypercritical. See, that's what's wrong with discernment. That's why I don't like the idea of it. Yeah, and those that are opposed to.

Any kind of discernment are obviously being inconsistent and illogical and hypocritical because they are criticizing those that they feel are excessive in their criticism.

That's right. I have a collection of tweets from people who rebuke me, saying, you should never publicly rebuke another Christian leader, and they publicly rebuke me. But what concerns me is that this is not a small issue in the New Testament.

I think there's maybe only one of the New Testament epistles that doesn't be discerning and careful. The only one that doesn't mention that, I think, is Philemon. And all churches in Revelation and Christ's words to his own disciples in the Gospels themselves, and the Book of Acts models it as well.

So every book in the New Testament, really, every substantial book in the New Testament is either for people to discern. In the early church, and it's interesting too, isn't it, that in the early church, and that was even complete, every church we have a record of had some battle with false teachers that needed to be critiqued and expelled from the church.

So if they had that big of a problem with it in the Emberton, certainly in our day, when thinking ideas and unbiblical notions are being peddled from the pulpits of evangelical churches, certainly there's a need today for discerning voices and point out why that's wrong, why it's unbiblical, and deal with the error, but tolerate it in many congregations today.

Fear of this, I think a lot of their preaching, you'll never hear any doctrine realize that just to teach biblical doctrine in and of itself is going to divide people in the congregation based on what they tend to believe, false ideas that they've imbibed.

So people think doctrine is inherently divisive, and there's a sense in which that's true. And in the New Testament to the next generation, Ephesian elders, for example, he comes on his way back to Jerusalem after his, I think it's at church, meet him at a nearby port, and he gives them a final, in which he says, you're probably never going to see me again, but keep this in mind.

And what he says is, keep a close eye on the church, on its doctrine. And then he tells them prophetically, even from among yourselves, seek the preeminence. And sure enough, the Ephesian church, and there's so much in the New Testament that urges us to be discerning and careful and even critical,.

False teaching that they have. Yeah, if you could, let's start with the half or, in your opinion, much more than half of Christendom that is really overly ecumenical. They're overly forgiving of serious matters.

They are more prone to gloss over or be unconcerned about matters that are serious, even matters that have salvific importance to them. And then after that, we could go over some of the primary ways you believe people are becoming pharisaic, or they are becoming discernment warriors, and they are pulling splinters out of their brethren's eyes while they still have logs in their own.

Yeah. Let's start with the weaker side of the discernment area first, those who are overlooking things. And I'm talking about within the framework of conservative evangelicals. We don't even need to waste time with the mainline liberal Protestants or liberal Catholics or.

Anything like that. Yeah, well, it's easy to understand why people think the way they do, because, let's face it, conflict is not pleasant for anybody. Nobody loves a fight except somebody who's crazy.

And in fact, somebody who does love a fight ought not to be looking for fights all the time. And fighting, arguing, disagreeing over doctrine, there is something in that sense distasteful. And let's face it, those conflicts fall in nature.

We're if humanity weren't fallen in the first place, we wouldn't have conflicts. So we tend to see, because conflicts are the fruit of the fall and the fruit of our sin, then maybe it'd be best if we just avoid them altogether.

And people who think in a very shallow way think then they conclude that they're not just disagreeing, arguing. And in the era in which we live, the postmodern era, truth that's knowable. So what we all believe is either a socially constructed thing that we all agree with, or what they believe is wrong.

You're entitled to your truth, and I have my truth. And that's how people today tend to think. And too much of that worldly value system has crept into the church, where there are a lot of people in the church who likewise think that there's just something unspiritual and uncharitable and unkind about telling someone else that what they believe and what they teach is.

And correct errors in a loving and patient commandment. It's an easy thing to do. Paul did that, Timothy did do that, and Titus. So there are times when it's even fitting to have a sharp disagreement.

And people in the church generally see that as such a just sort of teaching style of Jesus. Miring followers away by purposely teaching something that he knew would be too hard for them to, and then he turns to his innermost disciples and says to them, you want to go too?

Go ahead. In fact, people,.

I have heard people, I've even heard professing Calvinists say, oh, we shouldn't even teach the doctrines of sovereign grace or Calvinism to unbelievers or new believers. We should just preach the gospel to them and hope they get saved.

Well, the very thing that you just mentioned, Jesus is turning many in the crowds away. He had a habit, as you just said, to put it another way, of thinning out the herd when it got too big, intentionally.

And the very thing that turned the crowd away was, especially when we're talking about the area when he's talking about the Lord's Supper, it wasn't the Lord's Supper itself, it was that those could not, no one could come to him unless it is given to them by the Father.

That was the final straw that broke the camel's back,.

And that goes hand in hand with the doctrines of sovereign grace. Yeah, absolutely. That mainstream evangelicalism today is just badly out of sync. What it means to speak the truth in love, we don't really seem to have a biblical note telling us that we need to be seeker-sensitive, we need to find out what people are looking for and give it to them, we need to avoid any kind of offense to anyone who might hear.

And yet, the New Testament is full of statements saying that the gospel itself is offensive. If you preach it correctly, it is going to offend people. And Paul says at one point that, look, the Jews require a sign and the Greeks want wisdom, but he says we preach Christ crucified, which to the Greeks, it sounds like foolishness, and to the Jews, the Jews want a sign, we give them a stumbling block.

The Greeks want wisdom, we give them foolishness. He's actually saying that the gospel is the very opposite of what people are demanding to hear, but it is also the very thing they need to hear. And true charity tells people what they need to hear, not what they want to hear.

And in fact, a time would come when people wouldn't tolerate sound doctrine, but they demand what they wanted. That's exactly the era in which we live, and it's not a good thing. But it is the dominant attitude among evangelicals today that if you offend somebody, you've done.

Wrong. Yeah, there seems to be, at its root, and this comes to, I think, both sides, to both opposite ends of the spectrum, those that refuse to discern and rebuke, even in a loving and gentle way, those that disagree, and those that go overboard in rebuking and chastising and condemning everyone that doesn't agree with them lockstep.

There seems to be a lack of discernment over what is salvific and what is not. You have that on both ends, where you have people who are rock-solid Christians and even brilliant scholars on occasion, on the one hand, who seem to overlook the very serious issues that belong within the chasm that separates Rome from the Reformation.

For instance, I will never understand J .I. Packer, who has been used of God to lead countless thousands of people, not only to salvation, but to deeper theological truth, the doctrines of grace, and so on.

A man who can articulate it clearly well, who knows what he's talking about, and yet who is passive and really indifferent, it seems, on occasion, over the issues that separate Rome and the Reformation.

Then you have others who will condemn you as being a heretic or being lost if you do not openly declare that Arminians are lost. Even if you're a Calvinist yourself, they will say, well, this guy who professes to be a believer in the doctrines of grace, he really doesn't believe them because he believes that Arminians are his brothers, and he has even had ecumenical fellowship with Arminians, so therefore, not only do I believe that Arminians are damned, I believe that that individual is damned as well.

There seems to be, as I said, a lack of understanding of what is salvific and what is not.

Yeah, no question about it. In fact, I would say that was really what made the Reformation so powerful. You study Reformation history, you're going to find that virtually all the leading reformers were severely flawed men.

Some of them had a tendency to fight over the wrong things, etc. Luther had a foul mouth and a bad temper, and some of that comes through in table talk, which is kind of unfair to Luther because recordings of things he said at the table, that aside, it comes through clearly that he was a pretty deeply flawed individual.

But what made the Reformation so powerful were not the men who led it, but the fact that what they highlighted and what they agreed together on was the gospel, the heart of the gospel, the doctrine of justification by faith, and it drew such a clear line of demarcation between law and gospel, Christianity and, you know, the sort of inflated religion that Rome...

And because it was so clear and so simple that even the simple Aurarian people could understand it and grasp it. And I think that line of demarcation has been systematically and deliberately by so many ecumenical efforts.

And he's been kind of a leader in this, and like you, I appreciate a lot of what he's written up. And as an Anglican, he believes in apostolic succession here. That's the one unique thing in the Reformation.

And they're the only denomination, as far as I know, that Rome would say, apostolic denomination, that Rome would say, yes, they have a legitimate claim to apostolic succession. They can trace an unbroken line of their belief.

And so, because they hang on to that as their definition of the Church, when someone like Packer, an Anglican, looks at what he sees is a breach that he believes must ultimately be healed, like you or me, the emergence of what the Catholic Church had become.

And we don't see that, at least most have not seen that as a breach that needs to be healed, but the emergence of a believing remnant. Evangelicals embrace the idea that some kind of loyalty to Christ, we all need to get together on the same page, doctrinally, then let's do it.

Because Jesus said the mark of the true believer is our love for one another, that's how the world will know that we are who we say we are. Not because of the soundness of our doctrine, so let's just throw out any concern.

We all unite around our doctrine, and what that does is kill discernment. That ecumenical thrust that has really sort of taken off just in the past 30 years, a movement earlier in the 20th century that was far more liberal, but ecumenism.

Discernment, because the idea is that sound doctrine and, in fact, love demands that we compromise. We have to shed some of our dearest convictions because the heart of the gospel, the doctrine of justification by faith, is the the key thing that divides us on that doctrine.

Yeah, we have to go to our first break right now. If you have a question for Phil Johnson, please send us an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors. Hi, Phil Johnson here. I'm executive director of John.

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This is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today for the first hour is Phil Johnson, the executive director of Grace to You, the media ministry of John MacArthur, and we are discussing the charge to shepherds to guard the flock.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and please give us, as always, your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence, if you live outside the USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

And we would also remind you that the second hour of the program, we have Mike Gadosh returning as a guest after his open heart surgery. This is the first time Mike has been on since that very frightening, very delicate, dangerous, and life-threatening surgery that he had, and we are going to be hearing about lessons that he learned from that terrifying trial.

If you'd like to join us for that as well with a question, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com. You know, Phil, there are those that say that to err on the side of condemning people who are actually, in reality, your true brethren in Christ is a much safer way than ignoring errors, but when you look at the extremes of both sides,.

Aren't they both equally dangerous? Yeah, they are, and in fact, I would say the hypercritical folks are potentially more dangerous, and they hate the church they died for, and if there were more of them, I think I'd be raising a greater concern about them, but at the moment, I think the dominant attitude is the former, people who just don't like the idea of discernment at all, and in fact, that attitude has been fed by the fact that some of the noisiest, I won't say discernment, but these people think of themselves that they refuse to make any kind of differentiation between a major error and a minor one.

They can't tell any difference, but Jesus said of the Pharisees, they strain at gnats and swallow small things, but you swallow the big things, and that's exactly the problem. We've had people tell me that they don't see any ground in Scripture for making any kind of differentiation between major issues, and if you deny any point of truth, then it's a damnable heresy, and at which, effectively means, if you disagree with them on any point, they're going to excommunicate you completely, and since nobody agrees with anybody 100 of the time, always, they even see disagreements between whether or not anathematize you and separate from you.

If you disagree on even the most minor point, they believe that all isolating themselves back to you, you watch some of the, where do you go to church? To whose teaching do you sit under and appreciate?

They'll typically have a hard time coming up with any name, and usually it's someone they've only seen, if they name anybody, it'll only be somebody that they don't belong to church, and they think that's the mark of spirituality.

Right. We have an anonymous listener who says, earlier in the show, Chris Arnzen mentioned that Jesus spoke something that was a clear Calvinist teaching that drove many of his disciples away. Where is that in the Scripture?

Oh, I was citing from John chapter 6, verse 65. When Jesus said, this is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them. And from that time, many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

So I was saying that in relationship to those who are either Arminian, and even sometimes Calvinists, who don't think that it's all that primary of a deal, who say, oh you should never be teaching the unbeliever or the new disciple the doctrines of Calvinism.

And my response is, why? Jesus Christ did. And wouldn't you agree that that verse is clearly something that, it seems, uniquely taught by Calvinists, that God has to enable people? Yeah, that's right.

And in fact,.

You quoted, what was it, verse 65, where he says, this is why I told you. And you go back, where did he tell him that? He told him that in verse 40. And while you're looking it up,.

We'll repeat our email address, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Verse 44, he says, no one can come to me unless the Father on the last day. Clear there. What to do is spawned by a single unbeliever hears that and just gets angry. Oh, you mean God doesn't treat everybody equally?

He's not fair? And sparks anger, as if God treats everybody equally, but the truth is, God doesn't owe grace to any of us. That would nullify grace itself. That's right. It wouldn't be grace if he owed it to us.

It's a bad way of thinking about those key doctrinal concepts. The truth is, though, I think multitudes begin the Christian knowledge that critics out there, and particularly those that lean to kind of a hyper-Calvinism, a view of Calvinism that nullifies human response.

You're not even responsibly in the hands of a mechanical kind of fate, and they turn God into a... when, in fact, Scripture affirms divine sovereignty and says, no, it is your response. The problem is, you can't do that, so you have to seek God's grace.

Calvinism, you're not a believer. People like that generally tend to hyper-Calvinism, and they become more and more extreme. Their arguments go things like... they'll say things like this, well, an Arminian doesn't really have the right view of the Atonement of Christ.

He's at the heart of the Gospel, and they twist the Atonement, and that's a different Gospelistic view, and that logic might sound reasonable if you don't think deeply enough. If you make any error whatsoever with regard to the Atonement, then you're damned.

What would be a problem is if you change the nature of the Atonement, like those who deny substitutionary Atonement, people who... and turn it into an example for us to follow, rather than a substitution on our behalf.

The Arminian is simply guilty of being inconsistent. Christ died in his place and in his stead. He just hasn't thought... of all that, and let it affect... I'm with you. I can embrace an Arminian, an evangelical Arminian, as my brother.

Yeah, let's see, we have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who I think has something to say relevant to what you just said. He says, Don't you think that the errors of the fundamentalists have a lot to learn from?

They are decreasing in number, almost to the point of disappearing from the planet Earth, because of not only their open hostility to those outside of their borders, for not for issues that are salvific, but issues that are even secondary and tertiary, and also the fact that in their fight against certain peripheral issues, like how people dress and what music is played in the church, not that those are unimportant, but they overlook errors that are more serious that exist among them.

Yeah, that's right, Arnie. In fact, Phil...

I've done a whole lecture on that subject, and he's exactly right. We really ought to... And one of the problems is people don't learn the lessons of Hispan to the fundamentalist movement in the 20th century.

The name fundamentalism, or fundamentalist, has become a pejorative now. Nobody wants to be labeled a fundamentalist, because it carries all kinds of baggage.

Well, not nobody, but a shrinking number.

Yeah, that's right. But the original idea of fundamentalism was good. What they were saying was, look, there are these certain fundamental truths, and by that, what they meant was, these are the essential doctrines that you cannot compromise.

The fundamentals of... You're maybe too prone to fight, too much in love with the idea of fighting, just like the hypercritics today that I'm talking about. So much so that when they ran out of stuff to anathematize one another over, and this took 30 or 40 years, by the middle part of the 20th century, it's true that the fundamentalist debate was music style rather than the fundamentals of the faith.

By the end of the 20th century, it got to the point where large swaths of people who self-identified as fundamentalists, many of them, couldn't even tell you what the fundamental doctrines were anymore, because they thought the fundamentals were things like dancing and card playing and hair length and a list of things that you must not do if you want to be a true fundamentalist.

But they'd totally forgotten about the gospel itself. You could go to a fundamentalist church for months and never hear the gospel proclaimed with any kind of clarity or depth. Right. And so the fundamentalist movement devoured itself, because fundamentalists ran out of stuff and people to fight with and began to fight with one another, and the whole movement fragmented so that today it bears sound and very few and far but beat together on a large scale.

Yeah, they have so overemphasized,.

And I'm not saying that these things aren't important. Again, they can carry some serious weight, like what kind of music we have in the church, that's an important issue. But when you inflate those things to the top priority of what you preach on and what you evangelize on, when you're really preaching to the choir, because typically a fundamentalist preacher will be yelling at the top of his lungs to a congregation that agrees with him on those things anyway, and they don't participate in the things that he's yelling about.

But fundamentalists have to preach to the choir, they're the only ones that have choirs anymore.

But the thing that's ironic is in their alleged hatred for the heresies of Rome, they actually, in reality, when they are condemning their Calvinist friends to the pit of hell for teaching the doctrines of demons, they don't even realize how much closer they are to Rome in regard to the nature of man and his will and so on than biblical Christianity teaches.

Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right, and I know there are people who will doubt that statement because they're not really—my encouragement to them is, read Martin Luther's book, The Bondage of the Will.