SRR #43 | Roman Catholics and Their Queen Part 3

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May 11, 2017

SRR #59 | The Single Frame Hypothesis (Eschatology And The Danielic Imperative Part 4)

00:02: I do a podcast. I'm not interested in your podcast. These are these are wolves
00:11: Truth be told that I oftentimes Lay awake at night trying to figure out how I can get rid of wolves in the church
00:23: We are unabashedly Unashamedly Clarkian and so the next few statements that I'm going to make
00:29: I'm probably going to step on all of the Vantillian toes at the same time and This is what we do at simple riff around the radio.
00:35: You know, we are polemical and polarizing Jesus style I would first say that to characterize
00:50: What we do as fashion is itself Fashion, it's not hate.
00:56: It's history. It's not fashion. It's the Bible Jesus said woe to you and then speak well of you for their fathers used to treat the false prophets in the same way
01:11: As opposed to blessed are you when you have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness? It is on we're taking the gloves off.
01:23: It's time to battle All right,
01:29: I want to welcome everybody back to Semper Ephraim on the radio My name is Tim and I'm gonna be your host for today
01:35: I want to remind everybody that we are part of a network and there's I believe 10
01:42: Podcasts on the network if I if my math is correct So, let me just go ahead and play this little
01:49: Promotional clip that Tim Hurd put out so you can hear all the podcasts This podcast is a member of the
01:57: Bible thumping wingnut Network All right. Welcome everybody to another podcast episode with Semper Ephraim on the radio.
02:04: Hi, welcome to theology Welcome everyone to the logical belief ministries podcast.
02:10: Well, welcome to school of biblical harmonics Welcome everybody to grappling with theology.
02:15: What is going on guys shine his lights coming at you Well, welcome to slick answers.
02:21: Good evening and welcome to Conversations from the port welcome ladies and gentlemen to the
02:27: Bible thumping wingnut podcast The Bible thumping wingnut
02:33: Network 10 podcasts one network check them out Bible thumping wingnut .com
02:38: All right. So that is those are all the podcasts on there. I noticed that Len Pettis, I believe was the voice for Wrath and grace and now
02:51: I just want to say that We really really appreciate Len Pettis. He is
02:57: I think taking some time off for Family stuff. I know that he got a new job and I think he's
03:05: I think he was moving or something like that. But I know that he's really busy and Len I really appreciate you man.
03:12: I just want you to know that and Also want to say thanks to Tim heard these guys put in a lot of work a lot of a lot of hard work to Make the network what it is and we're just grateful to be a part of it.
03:24: We're grateful for these guys I heard Tim Hurd's last episode about him and his wife and just want to let them know that we are praying for them and also encourage our listeners to pray for Tim and his wife as well and Been very encouraged with With his testimony from the last episode.
03:44: This is very very encouraging to hear that. So Love you guys, and you know, we we're praying for the best for you so today we have with us our resident expert in Roman Catholicism Timothy Kaufman and And this guy is awesome.
04:03: I mean, I just can't say enough good things about Tim Kaufman he is a he's a
04:09: He writes a lot and you need to check out his blog the blog is it's titled out of his mouth and it's the
04:19: URL is whitehorse blog .com and he writes a lot of stuff about eschatology
04:26: Roman Catholicism and And a lot of stuff that pertains to history. So it's very interesting stuff.
04:33: I've Really benefited from it. I can't say enough about him. Go check it out, but we are going to be
04:42: Continuing in our series on Mother Mary and the series is called
04:48: Roman Catholics and their Queen and just for continuity sake I'm gonna put a part 1 part 2 part 3 and part 4
04:55: I think that we're gonna get probably 4 episodes out of out of this But the last two episodes that we did were episodes 39 and episodes 40 we did two episodes on different topics in between that one with Doug Dalma and Then another episode just coming out in support of pulpit and pen and JD Hall regarding the
05:18: Hank Hanegraaff stuff because well as a as a former Roman Catholic as I was pretty triggered by The stuff that I was hearing from Hank Hanegraaff and So we we kind of needed to do that in a timely manner but let me go ahead and pull up the the show notes from the last one in episode 39
05:43: Timothy Kaufman gave a basic overview of Mary and we addressed Mary as Queen Mother and Mary as the otokos and today we're going to get into The sinlessness of Mary But last week and that last week, but at the last episode in this series, which was episode 40 we talked about Mary as Mary as the
06:10: Ark of the New Covenant now this may This terminology may be a little bit unfamiliar to some evangelicals.
06:19: I mean, it's There's a lot of evangelicals out there that really aren't familiar with the
06:25: Reformation or really aren't familiar with Roman Catholicism and and so you may be unfamiliar with these terms, but go back and listen to that episode because Tim Kaufman what he does is he points out that from From Mary as the the prefigure prefiguration of the
06:46: Ark of the New Covenant From that from that idea from that doctrine they the
06:53: Roman Catholic uses that as the basis for supporting other
06:58: Marian dogmas such as Like the sin the sinlessness of Mary, which is what we're going to be getting into today.
07:06: But before I so we're gonna get into that but let me let me go ahead and give
07:12: Tim Kaufman an opportunity to say hello and And just ask him how he's doing.
07:18: I'm we're glad that he's here and then and then after that I have a question for you Tim Well, hello.
07:25: Thank you very much for having me on again. I'm certainly enjoying this series and it's always a pleasure to be here with you and as we
07:33: We're getting ready as you mentioned to talk about the sinlessness of Mary and as I mentioned last week
07:39: The reason we wanted to start by refuting The Roman Catholic belief that Mary is prefigured in the
07:47: Ark of the New Covenant was because the firm belief held by Roman Catholics that the
07:54: Ark of the Covenant prefigured Mary is the basis that they use for these other doctrines about the assumption of Mary her perpetual virginity and her sinlessness and So it was important last week to show why?
08:09: We can be demonstrated from the early church fathers that they did not believe that Mary Was prefigured by the
08:16: Ark of the Old Covenant and they did not identify Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant it's just so important to deal with that first before you get into all the others because So much flows from that.
08:30: So that's what we wanted to cover today And I'm just very glad to be back and I hope everybody's enjoying the series as much as we are
08:38: Well, I I do too. I second that and I really am enjoying this series. I'm really learning a lot from it
08:46: And so my question I had a question That I was listening to the to the last episodes and I know that we talked about this last week as well
08:57: In our conversation, but I wanted to ask you about You referenced in our previous episode you referenced a
09:07: Roman Catholic apologist by the name of Steve Ray and Steve Ray You said something about him having an article in which he cites historians
09:18: Not historians, but he cites historical figures in support of the views of the
09:24: Roman Catholic position and I know that you know Rome tries to position itself as the historical church and Likes to make the claim that we can't go past the 16th
09:38: The 16th century But you you're showing that that's not the case so we can take our faith all the way back to the early church fathers
09:47: And so my my question is when Steve Ray or guys like Steve Ray who are
09:52: Roman Catholic apologists Are they just are they cherry -picking? The stuff that they want to show are they it seems to me like they are in some sense a historical revisionist because They're they're trying to cite church fathers who they would say would agree with their position and clearly
10:12: What you've shown is that they don't agree with their position So I'm just wondering if there's maybe some historical revisionism going on or if there's a if there's some
10:23: Cherry -picking and if you could go ahead and comment on that Well as I mentioned last week that you know people like Scott Hahn and Steve Ray know very well that they don't have the evidence
10:33: They need from the first three centuries to show that the early church believed that Mary was the
10:39: Ark of the New Covenant and that she was prefigured by the Ark of the Old Covenant and so They have to rely on very very sketchy sources if they want to show evidence before Nicaea the
10:52: Council of Nicaea in 325 They have to show they have to use very very questionable dubious sources in order to prove it and so What I thought would be worthwhile before we get into Mary's sinlessness because it has everything to do with her identification as the
11:08: Ark Was to revisit some of the evidence that is used by Roman Catholics to prove that Mary was believed by the early church
11:19: To be prefigured by the Ark of the Old Covenant and as I mentioned last week you have church father after church father after church father
11:28: Even after the fourth century even Pope Gregory the Great thought that the Ark obviously prefigured the church
11:35: And so you have so many different opinions in the old from from the early church that Jesus was prefigured by the
11:45: Ark the church was prefigured by the Ark the Consecrated Virgin was you know the person who had opted for a life of celibacy was prefigured by the
11:54: Ark You know Christ's tomb was prefigured by the Ark The the individual believers prefigured by the
12:00: Ark all these different things and one thing that's consistent in all of them Is that none of them say that Mary was prefigured by the
12:08: Ark? Until you get to the latter part of the fourth century now in order to prove that this is an apostolic doctrine they have to come up they have to find some way to bridge that gap between the
12:22: Apostles and the actual evidence we have from church fathers who believed that Mary was prefigured by the
12:28: Ark of the Old Covenant and so I wanted to review a couple of them these all show up in Steve Ray's defense of Mary being prefigured by the
12:38: Ark and that the patristics all held it As I showed last week There's just abundant evidence that they didn't believe it
12:44: But when you get to the latter part of the fourth century suddenly, it's all the rage But I'll just give you a couple examples.
12:51: This is one from let's see We're gonna look at three. We're gonna actually look at four very quickly here These are all contained in Steve Ray's defense of the patristic support for Mary as the
13:02: Ark of the New Covenant And so he uses Dionysius of Alexandria. That's from the late second century to 264
13:09: AD is when he died Gregory Thaumaturgus also known as Gregory the Wonder Worker from 213 to 270
13:16: AD So we're talking third century here and then Methodius of Olympus Who died at 310
13:22: AD and then Ephraim the Syrian who died at 373 AD and all these men are used as evidence for early belief in In The typology of the
13:33: Ark and that is referring to Mary So I want to just revisit some of these because there is let's just look at this letter from Dionysius of Alexandria refuting
13:46: Paul of Samosata and In this letter
13:51: Dionysius of Alexandria is said to say that As Christ our priest has not chosen by hand of man
14:02: So neither was his tabernacle framed by man But was established by the Holy Ghost and by the power of God and that tabernacle protected
14:10: To be had an everlasting remembrance Mary God's virgin mother Okay, and then in another place not in a servant did he dwell but in his holy tabernacle not made with hands
14:21: Which is Mary the mother of God. So this is all alleged to be You know mid 3rd century from Paul of Samosata Well, what's interesting about this particular because he calls it out, you know,
14:32: Steve Ray calls out this particular citation Here's the problem for the first problem. Is that In this letter
14:38: Mary is not identified as the Ark but as the tabernacle both times She's identified as the tabernacle, but what's worse is that this is considered to be a forgery
14:47: Okay Cardinal Newman was this famous Anglican Bishop that converted to Roman Catholicism and he became a great apologist for Roman Catholicism and eventually made it as a cardinal in the papal court and He acknowledges in his
15:09: In his works that this was actually a forgery and it's not really from that time frame. And so it's not really evidence of An antinocene view by Diana Dionysius of Alexandria that Mary was the
15:22: Ark of the Covenant. It's a forgery Okay, so there's two problems with it one. It doesn't even say she's the Ark and two it's known to be a forgery
15:29: So we'll just but but you know what? I think that Steve Ray knows that but he needed evidence from the early church
15:36: And so he got it. The next one is from Gregory the Wonder Worker from Gregory Thoma Thoma turges
15:41: Thoma turges and his He was from 213 to 270 ad so about the same time frame is
15:49: Dionysius of Alexandria and he says for the Holy Virgin is in truth an
15:55: Ark wrought with gold both within and without that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary and That's from his first homily
16:03: The problem is that the homilies that are attributed to Thoma turges are considered even by Roman Catholics to be spurious
16:11: We're going to talk a little bit about Father Livius a little bit later and I'll refer to his work when we get there but even he acknowledged that this was of doubtful genuineness and Philip Schaff and his antinocene father series lists this this particular work by Gregory under his spurious works
16:28: Spurious means that they're they're not believed to be legitimate. They're not actually believed to be from that person or even from that era
16:36: You know, why would Steve Ray include that knowing that it's it's not even genuine So, let's go on to Methodius of Olympus and Of Olympus and Methodius of Olympus died in 310 ad so this would be some pretty solid evidence of an
16:53: Antinocene belief in Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant And he says for if to the
16:59: Ark which was the image and type of thy sanctity such honor was paid of God That to no one but the priestly order was the axe was the access to open it
17:09: Or ingress allowed to behold it the veil separating it off and keeping the vestibule as that of a queen
17:15: What and what sort of? Veneration is due to thee from us who are of creation the least to thee who art indeed a queen
17:24: Okay, so this is Methodius Olympus oration concerning Simeon and Anna chapter 5
17:31: Well, the problem here is that Methodius is oration is so heavily and hopelessly compromised that it can't be trusted and and even even scholars recognize
17:47: That you can't Use him to justify these Roman Catholic beliefs
17:53: Because the the document is corrupted beyond any realistic guarantee of Antinocena authenticity now
17:59: What's what's interesting about this and I would encourage our listeners to go check it out That is from the oration concerning Simeon and Anna chapter 5
18:11: Where he goes off on this huge tangent about Mary being this Ark and she's the
18:17: Queen and and just as the Ark was venerated and can't be looked into Should be venerated and cannot be looked into But the problem is in chapter 1
18:32: That is the part of this that is not considered to be compromised. He actually identifies
18:38: Jesus as the Ark Of the of the New Covenant. He says no second time is an
18:45: Uzzah Invisibly punished for daring to touch women what may not be touched for God himself
18:50: Invites us and who will stand and who will stand hesitating with fear He says come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden who then will not run to him this is this is
19:03: Methodius of Olympus quoting Christ and Seeing him as the manifestation of the
19:09: Ark whereas the original Ark could not be touched Christ himself can be and that's the difference now.
19:17: Why on earth would he use the typology of the Ark to say look the Ark of the
19:22: Old Covenant couldn't be touched but Christ can and Then later on in chapter 5 say the
19:29: Ark of the Covenant could not be touched and therefore Mary cannot it's it's a ridiculous Inconsistency and it shows that this the document that's being cited here the oration concerning Simeon and Anna is not considered an authentic document and then the the final one is also cited by by Rea as Ephraim the
19:50: Syrian and And I want to read this to you without the editorial notes
19:55: And then I want to read it to you with their editorial additions just to show How hard they have to try to make there be some evidence that the early church believed that Mary Was the
20:07: Ark of the New Covenant? So so I'm gonna read it to you without the editorial notes The rib that was drawn out of Adam The wicked one drew out the heart of Adam there arose from the rib a hidden power
20:22: Which cut off Satan as Dagon? For in that Ark a book was hidden that cried and proclaimed the conqueror now that's a reference to the time when the
20:32: Ark was actually taken by the Philistines and that was put in the in the same temple as Dagon and Dagon and Dagon kept on being knocked over but There's no reference in here of Mary and there's no at reference in here about About this being a type of Mary and Yet what happens is you have this?
21:01: Citation where it says there arose from the rib they have to put in parentheses That is
21:07: Mary That so there rose from the rib Mary a hidden power which cut off Satan as Dagon for in that Ark Mary again a book was hidden that cried and proclaimed the conqueror, you know
21:19: You know all that Ephraim was doing was talking about inside the Ark was Was a document that actually foretold
21:31: Christ Crushing the serpent's head and and this is so interesting. That's a reference to Genesis 315
21:37: Even Pope John Paul the second acknowledged that that is a reference to Christ and not to Mary That's from John Paul the second's general audience
21:46: January 24 1996 paragraph 3. So so here you have Steve Ray and actually he's quoting from Father Livius again.
21:53: He's saying that okay this quote from Ephraim the Syrian It's got to be a reference to Mary and so they have to actually pencil it in And it's actually a reference to the book of the law that proclaims that Christ would come and crush the serpent's head the seed of the woman and That John Paul the second acknowledges.
22:13: Yeah. Yeah, Genesis 315 prophesies Jesus. It's not a reference to Mary. So I mean It's like they're stretching it constantly to the breaking point
22:22: But the problem is that all we have to do is actually read what
22:27: Ephraim said When he talked about the typology of the ark, he said
22:33: This is from Ephraim on Exodus chapter 37. He says and Bezalel made an ark of undecaying wood a type of the body of Emmanuel which is incorruptible and not soiled by sin
22:48: So here's Ephraim Syrian when he's actually talking about the typology of the ark and doesn't have to be edited by the
22:54: Roman Catholic apologist He says that the ark is a type of Christ, you know, so so that's just one thing after another
23:02: I want to add one more thing here because Steve Ray also added a note in there about Heshius and it's s it's
23:14: HESY CHI US and it's Heshius of Jerusalem and he says hey he said
23:22: That Mary was a type of the ark, I mean the ark was a type of Mary And he lists his he lived around 300
23:29: AD. So here you have antennacine evidence, right? Antennacine being before the time of Nicaea.
23:36: Well, the Roman Catholic Encyclopedia under the entry on Heshius of Jerusalem says He was a pregnant
23:42: Presbyterian exegete probably of the 5th century Nothing is certain nothing certain is known as to the dates of his birth and his death or indeed concerning the events of his life so so I want you to think about I mean and I encourage the listeners
23:56: Go out there and download this evidence That Steve Ray compiled to show that the early church believed that Mary was ark of the new covenant and then listen
24:07: To it last week's episode all the church fathers. We quoted that believed that it was not Mary It was something else and just look how much he has to stretch the early church to close a 300 year gap
24:20: To prove that this is an apostolic teaching and it's just one thing after another is forgeries disputed documents creative editing
24:29: Creative revisionism in order to just somehow get some evidence before the Council of Nicaea That this was broadly held by the church and the fact is it wasn't the ark is a late 4th century novelty and as I've said in multiple
24:47: Podcasts now that we do not have to take the Roman Catholic arguments lying down We need to call them out for what they are and Steve Ray has created a fraudulent
24:56: Reconstruction of history in order to prove something that he knows is not true The early church did not teach that Mary was the ark of the new covenant but he is bound by his teaching authority that is
25:09: Roman Catholicism to teach otherwise because He he has to teach
25:14: Mary was considered the ark of the new covenant, even though the evidence It's an avalanche of evidence that shows that it just isn't true, right?
25:23: Yeah, and and yet because it's the Roman Catholic position. He's got to defend it it's not an interviewable position to be and just like I said of Scott Hahn last week when he tried to use
25:32: Hippolytus and then Hippolytus himself says the ark actually prefigured Christ himself and Christ's body and And it's not until the 5th century that Scott Hahn can actually find any evidence at all and the evidence he found was that you know, you know the patriarch of Of Antioch thought that Mary was prefigured by the tabernacle.
25:53: You know, that is how Intellectually vacuous the Roman Catholic argument for Mary as the ark of the new covenant is and when we get into her sinlessness
26:02: It just gets even worse And and I want I just can't emphasize enough these teachings are not apostolic and Roman Catholicism has created a lie and just like the
26:15: Mormons they now have to defend the lie and they'll define it defend it till the end because Their whole all their security all their salvation is wrapped up in the church being right
26:24: And so they have to defend it at all costs and it's just absolutely a fraud and historically just it cannot be substantiated
26:31: Yeah, you know you just Said just like the Mormons and it's funny as you were going through that.
26:38: That's exactly what I was thinking I was just thinking about how there's a tremendous amount of intellectual dishonesty that is required in order to suppress the obvious truth and distort these things and I was thinking about Mormonism because I have family members who are
26:54: Mormon and And I was just thinking about how they they have no they have no evidence for any of the the historicity of their claims and you know, they talk about cities like Jershaw Bountiful Manti Zarahemla that were great civilizations in the
27:11: Americas and They have to they have to grasp at straws to try to substantiate their claims and they have to rewrite
27:19: History and they've been shown to be wrong multiple times and this is this is what false
27:26: Religions do and you know, you said there's no there's no history for it. There's no there's no apostolic history for it and And you know, there's no there's no biblical basis for that So with that let's let's go ahead and get into the sinlessness of Mary I know that this is and it's funny because this is where a lot of Protestants just want to jump to in their in their talks with Roman Catholicism, but We we laid out the the the groundwork in the last two episodes and so now
27:58: We're getting into whether or not Mary was sinless And I know that she there, you know that they claim that she is the
28:07: Immaculate Conception that she was born without sin And so let's uh, let's go ahead and get into that Okay, let's let's get into that indeed.
28:16: So we're gonna now turn to 1854 and the proclamation by Pope Pius the 9th called in a fabulous days, which is
28:26: The proclamation that was made that it is a an apostolic doctrine in a divinely revealed truth
28:34: That Mary was conceived Without sin and what that means is that at the moment of her conception by an act of God's grace they will tell you this and this is this is important because we're gonna get to a
28:48: We're gonna get up to into a little bit of this Later on in this podcast, but they would say that all of the benefits of Christ's death
28:59: Were applied to Mary at that singular instant of her conception So that she was not only saved from her sins, but saved from sinning
29:09: But it was all by the merits of the cross and that is important because Roman Oftentimes we find
29:14: Protestants will argue against Roman Catholics and say well Mary calls Jesus her Savior and therefore she must have been sinful and Roman Catholics will say no
29:24: No He saved her from sin and from sinning and so he is her Savior All the merits of the cross were applied to her at the moment of her conception so that it would prevent her from sinning
29:36: So that he really did save her from sinning Now I think that's silly because the angel told
29:42: Mary that That God was going to save his people from their sins Of course, the
29:47: Roman Catholics say well, that's a general statement doesn't necessarily apply to Mary But but let's go into the actual proclamation here
29:55: I'm only gonna pull out a Small paragraph from in a fabulous day.
30:01: Yes, and it's the point where Pope Pius the ninth Draws on the imagery of the ark and he says in speaking of all the last week we introduced the episode by talking about all the different ways that some late church and medieval church fathers saw
30:16: Mary prefigured in almost everything in the Old Testament and So Pius the ninth has recited that a little bit and he said in such allusions
30:25: The father's taught that the exalted dignity of the mother of God her spotless
30:31: Innocence and her sanctity unstained by any fault in a wonderful manner and like manner did they use the words of the prophets to describe this wondrous abundance of divine gifts and the original innocence of the
30:47: Virgin of whom Jesus was born they celebrated the August Virgin as the spotless dove as the
30:54: Holy Jerusalem as the Exalted throne of God as the ark and house of holiness, which eternal wisdom built and that as Queen who abounding in delights and Leaning on her beloved came forth from the mouth of the
31:09: Most High Entirely perfect beautiful most dear to God and never stained with the least blemish okay, so that's uh, that's
31:18: What happens in a in a proclamation like this from a Pope is that he'll go through all the arguments and one of the arguments obviously is that Mary was prefigured as the ark and the ark was actually a type that points us to Mary That is the ark of the
31:36: New Covenant So what I want to get to next is say that let's let's read the actual
31:43: Proclamation from from the from the document itself and the proclamation is
31:51: Is He claims
31:57: Pope Pius the ninth claims that this had been always taught by the church and this is what he what he proclaimed in the document and indeed, this is quoting from Pius the ninth and indeed less illustrious documents of venerable antiquity of both the
32:20: Eastern and the Western Church Very forcibly testify that this doctrine of the
32:26: Immaculate Conception of the Most Blessed Virgin Which was daily more and more splendidly explained stated and confirmed by the highest authority teaching zeal knowledge and wisdom of the church and Which was disseminated among all peoples and nations of the
32:43: Catholic world in a marvelous manner this doctrine always existed in the church as a doctrine that has been received from our ancestors and That has been stamped with the character of revealed doctrine for the
32:57: Church of Christ Watchful guardian that she is and defender of the dogmas deposited with her never changes anything
33:05: Never diminishes anything never adds anything to them. But with all diligence she treats the ancient documents faithfully and wisely okay, so that's
33:16: That's Pius the ninth summary statement about why It is believed and now infallibly taught infallibly allegedly taught by Roman Catholicism That Mary was sinless and it's important to remember that we're seeing all these types we're supposed to see all these types in the
33:37: Old Testament and They're all supposed to point to Mary and They all show that Mary was prefigured in all these things and she was prefigured in So it was such a degree of holiness and by such holy articles as the tabernacle in the ark
33:51: That she must necessarily be sinless. But what we're going to show is that expert
33:57: Roman Catholic Mariologists acknowledge that her sinlessness does not emerge as an idea until The latter part of the fourth century and that it was a novelty at that time when it did
34:10: So, uh, so let's I want to show you why? Roman Catholic apologists have such a conundrum with Pius the ninth statement
34:21: That this has always been held and believed by the entire church and what
34:28: I want to do is to walk through the various church fathers interpretation of Bible verses and Show that they recognized just as we do that the biblical testimony
34:40: Shows that Mary was a sinner and I know that that that sounds absolutely anathema
34:48: To Roman Catholics But remember it's their Pope who said that all the documents the churches from the earliest days
34:55: East and West forcibly testified to the sinless Immaculacy of Mary and it just isn't true and we're gonna prove that today.
35:03: Yeah, you know It's it's funny because the moment you said that I Sort of cringed because I was thinking them's them's fighting words
35:13: You know with with Roman Catholicism and Yeah Yeah, so well my challenge in response if Roman Catholics think those are fighting words
35:24: Then let me just tell you from the perspective of Semper Reformata radio that inventing history is fighting words to us and if you want to prove that Mary's immaculate conception was an apostolic doctrine then show
35:39: Taught by the Apostles instead of coming to us with fabricated documents forged documents
35:45: Spurious documents and highly edited documents Changed to make the early church fathers say something they weren't saying.
35:52: I mean, it's a simple request Amen Roman Catholics plan to be the guardians of the truth and they come to us with lies and expect us to bend the knee to Rome because Lie, it's still taught by the church and Jesus would never lead his church into error
36:07: Now, you know what? I agree with that Jesus would never leave his church into error and that's why we know that Roman Catholicism is not his church
36:13: Right, so well then so let's start with I'm gonna start with a late a late 4th century church father because he says something quite interesting and this shows
36:22: That that John Chrysostom who lived from 349 to 407
36:27: AD He did not seem to be aware That there was an ancient apostolic teaching
36:36: That Mary was sinless and we know this from his interpretation of The visitation and this is the this is the point where This is where Gabriel Announces to Mary that she is going to have the
36:54: Christ child. She'll bear the Christ child And so John Chrysostom is asking this question. Why?
37:00: everybody knows that That The angel went to visit
37:06: Mary before she conceived but didn't explain this to Joseph until after Mary had conceived and he said no.
37:14: Why is that? Why would he go to Mary first? Before the conception instead of after and his answer is very very insightful
37:24: No, it's not insightful. I think it's just it's just conjecture, but it's it's insightful for it Provides some insight for us into what his thinking was
37:33: Why then it may be asked did he that is Gabriel not so in the
37:39: Virgin's case also, that is not visit her after the she had conceived already and declared the good tidings to her after the conception and Here's his
37:48: John Chrysostom's answer Lest she should be an agitation in great trouble for it were likely that she not knowing the certainty
37:56: Might have even devised something amiss touching herself and have gone on to strangle or stab herself not enduring the disgrace
38:03: Now she who is of such perfect delicacy Would even have been distracted with dismay at the thought of her shame not expecting by whatever she might say to convince anyone who should hear of it
38:14: But that what had happened was adultery so people are gonna basically so she basically says, you know, John Chrysostom saying she was so troubled
38:21: She might even kill herself That's why the angel didn't wait till after the conception to inform her now
38:28: What's important here? Is that not only do Roman Catholics teach that Mary is sinless?
38:34: But she was preserved from even the inclination to sin That is what they call concupiscence
38:44: The issue prevented from sinning but she's saved from even the inclination to sin and yet here
38:50: John Chrysostom And we're gonna get more from him that gets even more revealing, but but this is a very subtle statement
38:56: But it's a significant one that Mary would have been so troubled at Being pregnant and not understanding how or why that she might have gone and killed herself and Jesus with her
39:08: Because she might be aside that is John could John Chrysostom is saying First because she might kill
39:16: Jesus That is not Indicative of a church father who thought that Mary was preserved from the inclination to sin, right?
39:26: That's from Chrysostom's homily on Matthew. It's homily for paragraph 9. Okay, so What we're gonna get into next is from origin and and this has to do with the sword of sorrow now
39:40: Luke 235 Simeon prophesied that That Mary although Jesus would save his people
39:50: Mary's heart would be pierced with a sword of sorrow. And so the early church fathers were trying to figure out
39:57: Why what was that sort of sorrow and the scripture doesn't identify for us what that sort of sorrow is and so this is all speculation but in Their speculation they revealed something that they believed to be true about Mary.
40:10: That is that she was sinful and That sinfulness led her to doubt
40:16: Christ's purpose and this is from origin Homilies on Luke Chapters 17
40:27: Verses 6 chapters 17 of his homilies on Luke. It's homily 17 paragraph 6 and 7
40:35: He believed that the sword of sorrow that would pierce Mary's heart was the sword of being scandalized with doubt and unbelief
40:44: That Jesus had come and really was who he said he was He says if she did not suffer scandal at the
40:50: Lord's passion, then Jesus did not die for her sins But if all have sinned and lack
40:55: God's glory, but are justified by his grace and redeemed Then Mary too was scandalized at that time that he's quoted from Romans 3 23, you know
41:04: All have sinned to fall short of the glory of God and he's saying oh Well, of course Mary was scandalized just like everybody else was scandalized and that scandalized manifest the scandal manifested is not only it was doubt and unbelief and And yet he's basically saying that hey if all have sinned
41:26: Then Mary also was scandalized with the rest of the Apostles It's so origin is saying that Mary Was sinful and that Jesus had to die for her sins not to die to save her from sinning
41:37: But to die for the sin of unbelief And later Mary repented of that and was saved of course, right so we're gonna that was from 185 to 254 ad
41:47: But what's there's a thunderous silence from the rest of the world where nobody responds to originist said, oh my goodness
41:54: You've invented something new here. You're teaching an apostolic. You're teaching something that's contrary to what the
41:59: Apostles taught I mean, nobody responded to origin and said you're nuts. I can't believe you're saying that she's sinned
42:05: So we go to basal and this is from letter 260 paragraphs 8 and 9 He's also talking about the sword of sorrow from Luke to the 235
42:16: He says The Lord was bound to taste of death for every man
42:23: To become a propitiation for the world and to justify all men by his own blood Even you yourself that is he's addressing this to Mary He says even you yourself who has been taught from on high the things concerning the
42:36: Lord shall be reached by some doubt This is the sword okay, and In that same same section
42:44: He says Simeon indicates that after the offense at the cross of Christ a certain swift healing shall come from the
42:51: Lord To the disciples and to Mary herself Confirming their heart of faith in him.
42:56: So what's really interesting here? Is that the swift healing? comes to Mary after the cross okay, the
43:06: Roman Catholic teaching is that Mary was preserved by a miraculous act of God's grace in view of the cross and her conception
43:14: Basil says that she was reached with doubt and had to be healed of that by Christ death
43:21: Afterwards. So again, this is not stuff that speaks of early church fathers believing that it was an apostolic doctrine that Mary Had been conceived without sin and had not only been saved from sinning but saved from the capacity to sin
43:35: So we continue with Cyril of Alexandria and this is from 376 to 444 AD Also speaking about this same passage and in here
43:47: Basically it's showing that he thought that the sword was that Mary might not fully have believed the promises of God so this is from sermons on Luke sermon 4 from Cyril of Alexandria and Simeon further said to the
44:04: Holy Virgin yay a sword shall go through thy own soul. Also meaning by the sword
44:10: The pain which she suffered for Christ in seeing him whom she brought forth Crucified and not knowing at all that he would be more mighty than death and rise again from the grave
44:21: Nor mayest thou wonder that the Virgin knew this not when we shall find even the Holy Apostles themselves with little faith thereupon for verily the blessed
44:30: Thomas had he not thrust his hands into his side after the resurrection and Felt also the
44:36: Prince of the males would have disbelieved the other disciples telling him So now this is interesting.
44:42: He said, oh, yeah You know Mary was gonna be Really? She was gonna doubt
44:49: She might not even know for sure that he was gonna be mightier than death that he would come back from the dead I mean, she's just like Thomas, you know, you can't imagine a worse
44:58: Apostle You know, I guess you could say Judas for example, you know, you could say Judas would be a worse impossible to use
45:03: But here doubting Thomas They so well surely Mary doubted because you know, even Thomas doubted for crying out loud
45:11: So it's just very interesting that we have these early church fathers who are saying Oh, yeah, the sword of sorrow is that Mary just didn't believe didn't know
45:21: Jesus had to die for her sins even the sin of unbelief That occurred at the cross, you know, this is this is now
45:29: I want you to keep in mind That remember what Pius the Ninth said that all the early church fathers forcibly testified to Mary's immaculacy and sinlessness and Yet, what do we have?
45:44: From the early church. We have the opposite but testimony that she was sinful Yeah, and it gets worse when we get into the wedding at Cana John Chrysostom says some things that you just won't believe but but I want to pause for just a moment and And I mentioned
45:59: Thomas Livius father Livius earlier and he wrote a book in 1893 and it was called the
46:07: Blessed Virgin in the fathers of the first six centuries and He had to wrestle with the problem.
46:13: He found in origin basal and Cyril Who had interpreted? the sword of sorrow to be unbelief and doubt and It's interesting there had been an appearance of Mary and we've talked a little bit about the apparitions of Mary on our various podcasts, but the in Roman Catholicism there are different times when something that claims to be
46:37: Mary appears to people who Roman Catholicism either, you know later call saints or blessed or whatever, but they
46:45: Many of these have been considered to be legitimate Some of them haven't received the stamp of approval of the church, but nevertheless what's interesting here is that and Catherine Emmerich in 1823 had been visited by something claiming to be married in 1823 and revealed to her that doubt and anxiety
47:07: Awoke in the mind of the Lord as he asked this terrible question. What is the benefit of this sacrifice?
47:14: And that's from from Livius the
47:19: Blessed Virgin in the fathers of the first six centuries and What's interesting is Livius is struggling with the fact that he was expecting to go to the early church fathers and find evidence of Mary's sinlessness and instead he finds origin basal and Cyril saying that she was sinful and doubted and So what he does is he said well a vision of Mary in 1823 said even
47:40: Jesus doubted So maybe it's okay for Mary to doubt It's very interesting that he would sooner have
47:47: Jesus stumble into unbelief Than have Mary be seen as a sinner in need of his forgiveness and that Is all you need to know about Roman Catholic the adoration of Mary They would have
48:04: Jesus doubt Wow, or they would ever Consider doubt to be a sin.
48:10: Yeah, let me let me just ask you a real quick question. So Okay, so he he was the recipient of a vision or No, no
48:25: Thomas Livius was not he was referring to to Anne Catherine 1823 and just so he actually
48:33: Yeah, yeah, let me let me uh, let me just throw this this little caveat in there just to be clear for our listeners up if if you know if these
48:44: Apparitions really did take place and they're not fabrications both Tim Kauffman and I would would Strongly take the position that they are demonic in nature that they are not
48:55: So when brother Kauffman says something You know appeared or whatever
49:01: We would both say that those were that that was a demonic apparition masquerading as As Mary in order to deceive people.
49:11: Am I right on that Tim? You would agree Oh, you're absolutely right In fact, I would you know, my position is that these are very real and they do occur and they're demonic
49:21: Yeah, same here in my point. Here is only that that Livius father
49:27: Livius Struggling with the evidence that he finds in the early church has to rely on an apparition of Mary To feel better about these early church fathers saying that Mary But it's very clear in the context that they thought their doubt was sin
49:40: Otherwise the cross was not necessary to cleanse her of it. So right and and you know we're not going to get into it today because we're pressed for time and but I am
49:52: I'm Really wanting to do an episode or a bunch of episodes actually on on the apparitions of Mother Mary because you've pointed out in your writing that there is a direct correlation between the apparitions of Mother Mary and the the
50:10: The way that the doctrines of Mary have evolved throughout the the ages and throughout the church
50:15: The Roman the Roman Catholic Church that is and a lot of times the the apparitions will come and substantiate
50:24: Heretical views of Mary and so the two are very much they go hand in hand and you know, we will be getting into that and in later episodes,
50:35: I mean Tim Kaufman has Yeah, she has so much to say about about these issues.
50:44: So You know just just hang in there we can't get to everything all at once but alright
50:50: Tim, sorry for the little Hijacking the show there. Let's go ahead and continue. Oh, no, that's absolutely absolutely fine
50:57: This this is a fun conversation to have and very interesting, of course
51:02: So, so let's let's move on. I want to go to the next scriptural verse interpreted by one of the church fathers
51:07: We're back to John Chrysostom. We live from 349 to 407 AD and again, I want you to think about if what
51:16: John Chrysostom is saying is consistent with a Universal widely held belief that Mary was preserved from the stain and inclination towards sin at the moment of her conception
51:28: Just think about that because that's what we were promised by Pius the ninth that the church fathers East and West had all
51:34: Believed this and so just keep in mind that Tertullian would be considered Western and John Chrysostom would be considered
51:40: Eastern. He's from Antioch So so let's just and we'll get into a little bit from Tertullian a little bit but um the
51:49: John Chrysostom on this is the wedding at Cana John 2 verses 1 to 11 This is the moment that Roman Catholics often appeal to in scriptures that Mary commanded
51:59: Jesus to do something and he obeyed But go back and read the text. There's never a command from Mary to Jesus There's only a command for Mary to the to the servants at the wedding
52:08: But here's the thing is that Mary intervened in a place that Chrysostom didn't think that it was appropriate for her to intervene and he considered her
52:20: Her intervention to be sinful and Jesus had to correct her of saying this this is from homilies on on This is actually homilies on Matthew, but he's referring to to Mary In that event, he said he both when he corrected her
52:39: He both healed the disease of vainglory and rendered the due honor to his mother
52:45: So it's interesting here. See Protestants would take the position that Jesus honored his mother, but that doesn't mean that And so here
52:53: John John says that by rebuking Mary he healed the disease of vainglory
53:01: So imagine someone today in Roman Catholicism say well Mary had the disease of vaingloriousness and and it's good thing that Jesus healed her of that or or Mary suffered from the sin of Unbelief and it's good thing that Jesus died on the cross that he could cleanse her from that sin
53:17: Because this is what the early church fathers are saying. So let's go to homily 21 on the
53:22: Gospel of John now again, we're talking about the wedding at Cana here and and here
53:30: He says That Jesus was very Vehement in his response when he says woman, you know, what have
53:39: I to do with these? So he says for this is where Mary intervened and she wanted to do a favor for the wedding host
53:46: She said for she desired both to do them a favor and through her son to render herself more conspicuous
53:52: Perhaps to she had some human feeling like his brethren when they said show yourself to the world on this
53:58: John 17 for Desiring to gain credit from his miracles. Therefore. He answered her somewhat vehemently
54:05: You just think about What must go through the mind of a Roman Catholic apologist when he discovers that John Chrysostom is saying that Mary?
54:14: part of the reason that she intervened at the wedding was because she wanted to show that she was so important and gained some credit from his miracles and and and John actually says this when he
54:25: Corrects when Jesus corrects her He actually did it because he did not care.
54:31: So he cared very much to honor his mother and For doing good, but he cared more for the salvation of her soul okay, so he says and so this was this is homily homilies in John homily 21 paragraph 3 and so This was a reason why he rebuked her on that occasion saying woman
54:49: What have I to do with you instructing her for the future not to do things like this? Because he was careful to honor his mother yet.
54:57: He cared much more for the salvation of her soul Okay, so that's
55:03: John Chrysostom commenting on on the the wedding at Cana So let's let's now move to the something that happens in several of the
55:11: Gospels where where Jesus brothers and mother interrupt him in his preaching and This is from Matthew 12 verses 46 to 50 and When and here
55:23: I'm going to quote from Tertullian on the flesh of Christ chapter 7 and he shows that Mary and Jesus brothers are in unbelief and their unbelief is evident.
55:36: So this is what he says Passage indeed their belief their unbelief is evident While strangers were intent on him that is listening to him his very nearest relatives were absent
55:47: But they prefer to interrupt him and wish to call him away from his great work when denying one's parents an indignation
55:56: Jesus does not deny their existence but censures their faults in The abjured mother that is the corrected and rejected mother
56:05: There is a figure of the synagogue as well as of the Jews and the unbelieving brethren in their person
56:11: Israel remained outside To kept close to Christ within hearing and believing represented the church
56:18: Which he called mother in a preferable sense and a worthier brotherhood with the repudiation of the carnal relationship
56:25: That's Tertullian saying that Jesus abjured his mother corrected her fault censures her faults
56:31: She was among the unbelieving brethren outside. They're a they're a figure for the synagogue of the
56:37: Jews in the text I mean that that's insane Look, and it's insane to think that Roman Catholics can maintain the early church thought
56:47: Universally Mary was sinless. We still haven't found any evidence. They thought she was sinless. All we find is that she was considered sinful and It's referring to that same event.
56:57: And this is his work against Marcy in book 4 chapter 19 I Be quoting
57:05: Tertullian again besides his Admission of his mother and his brethren was the more expressed from the fact of his unwillingness to acknowledge them
57:15: He adopted others That he adopted others only conformed those in their relationship to him whom he refused because of their offense and For whom he substituted the others not as being true relatives, but worthier ones
57:28: Finally it was no great matter if he if he did prefer to kindred the faith which it did not possess
57:35: Here, he's saying that his mothers and brothers and relationship his near relations Did not possess the faith of the people that were listening to him in that crowd and He refused his mother and his brothers because of their offense that's not that's not indicative of a belief that Mary was sinless and Here we're back to John Chrysostom also speaking about Matthew in the time when
58:02: Jesus and Sorry, Jesus mother and his brothers tried to interrupt him and this is
58:08: John Chrysostom homilies on Matthew homily 44 paragraph 1 for in the fact
58:16: For in fact that which she that is Mary had tried to do was a superfluous vanity
58:22: In that she wanted to show the people that she has power and authority over her son imagining not as yet anything great concerning him
58:30: When it's also her unseasonable approach See at all events both her self -confidence and theirs since when they ought to have gone in and listened with the multitude
58:41: In other words, he John is saying that Mary and the brothers should have gone on and listened Or if they were not so minded to have waited for his bringing his discourse to an end and then to have come near They call him out and do this before all if in sickness or perfluous vanity and wishing to make it appear that with much authority
58:58: They enjoin him. So here's John Chrysostom again talking about Mary and Jesus brothers Standing outside and they should have waited politely until he was finished instead of interrupting
59:09: Still not imagining anything great concerning Christ. And that's why Her Unseasonable approach is referring to Mary interrupting
59:19: Jesus in the middle of his preaching Right, and that's John Chrysostom homilies on Matthew again.
59:26: So So I'm gonna give a couple others here and then I want to wrap up on on Mary's sinlessness the
59:35: This is one from Hillary of Portier He died in 360 AD and in his in his
59:44: His tracts on Psalm 118 He makes a side comment that Mary is destined to undergo scrutiny of God's judgment for small faults even though he thought that she was
59:58: She had tiny faults. That means that she was not sin. Right? She might have had only false small small faults but they were false and that she was gonna have to undergo the scrutiny of God's judgment and And and here's this last one from Hillary of Portier's is on the
01:00:13: Trinity book 10 chapter 25 here is
01:00:19: That Hillary's construct on the incarnation does not require Mary to be sinless in order to give birth to Christ and the reason is
01:00:28: That in this particular passage, he says that Jesus was born of the
01:00:34: Virgin and yet our faults Might not be in but our faults might not be in him because he is the source of his own humanity
01:00:42: Now it's interesting for him to say that Jesus is the source of his own humanity This is not considered a denial of the incarnation, but it shows that he did not consider himself to have received
01:00:56: Sinless flesh from Mary that's a key part of Roman Catholic arguments on Mary sinlessness
01:01:02: Jesus flesh was sinless. He got his flesh from Mary Mary must therefore have been sinless because he got his humanity from her and yet here's
01:01:11: Hillary of Portier Saying that Jesus needed a body But he was the source of his own humanity so that our faults might not be in him.
01:01:24: Well Why say that if Mary was sinless? Well Hillary of Portier knew that Mary was not sinless
01:01:30: And that's that's an oblique reference to Mary's sinfulness but it says something quite interesting that he's the source of his own humanity and If that explains why
01:01:42: Hillary had no problem saying that Mary was sinful Because he didn't see Jesus is taking her sinful flesh to make his body
01:01:50: Even though yes genetically she got you know, Jesus truly a child of Mary, but it's just an interesting statement by Hillary That Jesus was the source of his own humanity so Now what's interesting about all this and what we'll go ahead and wrap up on on this that Roman Catholics the the ones the honest historians who want to just do some fact -checking on Pius the ninth come to the conclusion that it's really not to the latter part of the fourth century that we actually get evidence that That the church believed that Mary was sinless and that's instead of evidence of apostolicity.
01:02:28: That's actually evidence of novelty I want to introduce our listeners to the evangelical evangelical
01:02:35: Catholic apologetics Association I call them ECA for short and they have a very helpful summary on the early church's position on Mary and Her Immaculate Conception and it's called the
01:02:48: Immaculate Conception of the Mother of God From Juniper Carroll's Mariology and Ola Thorne's Immaculate Conception.
01:02:54: And so before we get into some of their statements I want this to highlight their sources Juniper Carroll lived from 1911 to 1990 and William Bernard Ola Thorne lived from 1806 to 1889
01:03:12: Juniper Carroll was the founder of the Mariological Society of America and for his exhaustive work in Mariology He was awarded the
01:03:20: Marian Library Medal in 1957 He also published a three -volume set called Mariology from 1955 to 1961
01:03:27: Which is the focus of the ECA ministry summary on the Immaculate Conception now
01:03:32: Ola Thorne Was a Roman Catholic archbishop an English prelate who held high offices in the
01:03:39: Roman Catholic Church During the 19th century and was the first Roman Catholic bishop of the Diocese of Birmingham in England Oh These are not
01:03:50: These are not illiterate uneducated Idiots these men are well -studied intelligent
01:04:02: Roman Catholic men priests prelates archbishops that sort of thing and This is what they had to say about the early church's belief about the sinlessness of Mary we'll start with so many people try to find some evidence of sinlessness in Mary by deferring to Hippolytus who died in 235
01:04:26: AD and They they handle this very In a very scholarly objective fashion.
01:04:33: They say does Hippolytus use of Haggios as A rather vague laudatory epithet for Mary Is it used as a title of dignity or does it imply moral excellence?
01:04:45: You know, in other words, they're asking the question. Yes, Hippolytus used the word Haggios in reference to Mary But does that mean
01:04:53: Hippolytus thought that she was sinless and they answered they say the answer must in the state of the evidence
01:04:58: Be a confession of ignorance They can't say for sure that Hippolytus really was saying that Mary was sinless.
01:05:04: So we go to Irenaeus early 2nd century. He died in 202
01:05:10: AD This is what they say about Whether or not Irenaeus can be construed to say
01:05:18: That Mary was sinless. They say regrettably Irenaeus insight into the second or new eve is not paralleled by any conclusion in the text with respect to the state of her soul
01:05:31: Prior to her fiat that is when she said let it be done to me according to thy will Did the
01:05:36: Antinocene father's glimpse of further consequence from the analogy and indication of Mary's sanctity? Say who could possibly give a certain answer one way or the other they just throw up their hands
01:05:47: The one when Roman Catholics trying to prove Mary's sinlessness before Nicaea Wall Silence where there just isn't anybody talking about Mary's sinlessness
01:06:01: And the fact is Roman Catholics Roman Catholicism Steve Ray Scott Hahn And I'll say
01:06:08: Carol and Ola Thorne who we just cited from evangelical Catholic apologetics They know very well
01:06:14: That there just isn't any evidence in the early church for Mary sinlessness. And what there is evidence for is
01:06:20: Mary's sinfulness and So so I want I want our listeners to remember what
01:06:27: Pius the ninth claimed in in a fabulous day It's the infallible proclamation that both the
01:06:33: Eastern and Western Church forcibly testify To Mary's sin sinlessness.
01:06:40: The fact is it's the exact opposite. They testified of her sinfulness and That she was an obstruction
01:06:47: Obstructionist she intervened in Christ ministry sometimes to gain credit She had she suffered from vainglory.
01:06:55: She was a figure for the synagogue of the Jews. She was she had unbelief That had to be corrected
01:07:01: Not through an immaculate conception But at the cross and it was not until after the cross that that swift healing came to Mary It's not like he went backwards in time all the way to the moment of her conception.
01:07:13: So In the West this is from this is from Juniper Carol and Olaf Olaf Ornette's Being cited by ECA this is what they have to say about the
01:07:25: Western Church before Nicaea One of the most perplexing problems in patristic
01:07:31: Mary ology revolves about Mary's holiness The issue becomes complex and that it involves an aspect of Mary's sanctity
01:07:39: Mary sanctity acute for the contemporary Christian the state of Mary's soul at the moment of her conception from the close of the
01:07:47: Apostolic Age to the Council of Nicaea and 325 AD the literary heritage of Western Christianity contains so Remarkably little on the theme of Our Lady's holiness that a pointed question is inevitable
01:08:00: Was the pre -niceen West even conscious of the problem, right?
01:08:07: There's no problem Except in the Roman Catholic doctrine
01:08:12: That's the problem the pre -niceen West was fully aware of Mary's sinfulness This is what they have to say about the
01:08:19: Eastern Church between Nicaea and Ephesus Marian theology Makes a scant progress in the
01:08:26: East before the Council of Ephesus in 431 AD Eastern theology is apparently unaware of a problem in this regard where the literature touches on the sanctity of Mary it does so for them
01:08:39: Legally in passing with a disinterest which is disconcerting it and at times a familiarity
01:08:46: Familiarity which borders on discourtesy Think about that Think about they're saying we went looking for evidence that what
01:08:55: Pius the Knight said was actually true and We just couldn't find the data.
01:09:01: Yeah What's it interesting about the church
01:09:09: Yes up until the time when When Roman Catholicism actually claimed that Mary was sinless
01:09:18: With the problem of Mary's holiness in a way that was altogether inconsistent with what Roman Catholicism would eventually claim
01:09:24: Roman Catholic encyclopedia Actually, I knows that there were people in the early church who thought
01:09:31: Mary was sinful and they just Categorize it as stray private opinions. This is quoting from the
01:09:36: Catholic Encyclopedia on the Immaculate Conception Private opinions merely serve to show that theology is a progressive science.
01:09:45: I tell you what, that's the only thing Theological equivalent of the wizard telling Dorothy not to look at the man behind, right
01:09:51: Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Don't look at the data. Don't look at the evidence Just trust us on this
01:09:56: Mary was sinless and all the things from John Chrysostom origin basal Cyril Tertullian All straight private opinion and that just shows that theology is a progressive science
01:10:07: And well, it didn't actually progress to the point of Mary being sinless until the latter part of the fourth century and that's what the scholars say and again,
01:10:14: I'm quoting from Carol it says a significant turning point in the
01:10:20: Mariological consciousness of the West does not occur until 377 AD with the publication of st.
01:10:26: Ambrose's three books on virginity Attitude Ambrose The attitude of Ambrose toward Mary is something novel in Latin literature
01:10:35: And then he says with respect to Our Lady's holiness the year 431 marks a turning point for the
01:10:41: Eastern patristic thought Now that's pretty interesting it's quite a confession so, you know what we went looking for evidence
01:10:48: Couldn't find it to the latter part of the fourth century All those guys that did talk about Mary being sinful before the latter part of the fourth century
01:10:57: It's all stray private opinion pay no attention to it Pius the ninth says this is an epistolic doctrine and you need to just accept that it even though we haven't found the evidence
01:11:07: Right. So unless there's a 300 year gap and you're just gonna have to take our word for it even though all the evidence is to the contrary and this is the same position that Scott Hahn is in the same position that That Steve Ray is in Any evidence he can provide prior to the latter part of the fourth century is questioned dubious forgery edited
01:11:31: Heavily edited by Roman Catholics to make it say what they need it to say and they can't find any evidence on the
01:11:36: Ark Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant until you get to the end of the fourth century and it turns out the same thing with the
01:11:43: Immaculate conception doctrine and what this shows is the infallible proclamation from Pius the ninth not only is wrong
01:11:49: But it's an out -and -out lie I mean Pius the ninth knew very well that there was no evidence for the early church on Mary being sinless and it he left it
01:11:58: To Carol and Ola Thorne and go back and clean up his mess and actually go look Well, the truth is there's no real evidence in the
01:12:06: West on Mary's immaculacy until 377 and in the East we don't even get that till 431
01:12:12: So we're talking about fourth and fifth century is when Roman Catholicism finally finds evidence for the immaculate conception of Mary And that shows that it's not an apostolic teaching at all.
01:12:22: And it's just a fraud that's been Perpetrated on the world and well, it's been perpetrated on Roman Catholics Protestants don't have to take this lying down though.
01:12:32: Just point out the truth. That's a novelty from late fourth century and It's not an apostolic doctrine.
01:12:38: Yeah. Yeah Okay. Well Yeah, you man you just you knock it out of the park like I'm I'm reading your notes with you as you go along and you've you just do so much
01:12:57: You put so much into this so again, thank you for for joining us
01:13:03: And coming on so that our listeners can benefit from this This is this is really really a devastating blow
01:13:11: I can't think of how many times that I was thinking as you were talking them's fighting words your
01:13:19: You know because they just hold on to this doctrine of Mary just so tightly and I remember having a conversation with with somebody
01:13:31: Who was very close to me? And I was trying to say, you know, I don't I don't believe that mother Mary was was sinless
01:13:38: I believe that she she was sinful that she needed Christ as her Savior and And I tried to show and you know through some
01:13:48: Bible passages you know My position and the reply that was given to me was well, why wouldn't you want her to be sin sinless?
01:14:00: you don't think that Jesus deserved a sinless mother and There's just just such a strong devotion.
01:14:07: It's it's it's a it's offensive and it's it's blasphemous to to say these things in certain circles and You know,
01:14:17: I had to tell this this person, you know, it's not up to me it's not you know,
01:14:23: I don't get to decide I don't you whether I want something to be true or not didn't determine whether whether or not it's actually true and You know,
01:14:32: I'm just but I think that's it's interesting just The whole question about don't you think she deserved
01:14:38: Jesus deserved a sinless mother. I'll say well I think then that he deserved followers who were not lepers and tax collectors, right and Samaritans and Gentiles I think he deserved better than that.
01:14:50: So let's just rule out the Samaritan leper that came back and Worshiped him.
01:14:58: Let's just rule out the prostitutes that adored him Let's rule out the tax collectors that followed him because Jesus deserves
01:15:05: Sinless followers and this is the subtle way that Roman Catholics Separate the sinners from their
01:15:12: Savior is That they try to make the case that Jesus deserves sinlessness as a condition of coming to him
01:15:21: And coming to earth was to cleanse God's people from their sins so that they could come to him
01:15:27: Yeah that come to God and this idea that Jesus has to be surrounded by a circle of sinlessness
01:15:35: The Rejection of the cross it's a denial of the gospel and in some ways It's a denial of the incarnation because it says that Jesus could only come so far and Mary had to come the rest of the way
01:15:46: Right, you know that right that Mary becomes our intercessor between us and Jesus so that Jesus can be our intercessor between Mary and God the whole chain of Intercession is all based around this idea that Jesus has to be surrounded by a circle of sinlessness and we can't approach him
01:16:03: Yeah See from the early church, they didn't feel that way at all about Mary yeah, and they recognize that she was a sinner and Roman Catholics are in the in the position of having to invent a
01:16:17: History that spans 300 years of missing data between the Apostles and when their doctrines actually began right?
01:16:23: Yeah. Yeah, and you know with that brother Tim, I just Want to reiterate what
01:16:32: I try to Say a lot I don't know if I say it all the time
01:16:37: But the whole reason that we're doing this is not because we're we're trying to bash people
01:16:43: It's not because we hate Roman Catholics. I I will say that I hate the system Because I believe it's an antichrist system but the people that are trapped within that system
01:16:57: I Truly care for I truly love I We both have a heart to reach
01:17:05: Roman Catholics, we both have Family members who are Roman Catholic. We both have friends who are
01:17:11: Roman Catholic and The whole purpose of this is not to I mean, you know, you look at the the political scene
01:17:21: When people start talking about politics you look at you know These news outlets and their platforms and they just love to bash in on people
01:17:30: They they're like Pharisees going around nitpicking at gnats and other people when they have logs in their own eyes that's not the
01:17:40: That's not The the attitude with which we're doing this and you know our our desire is that that Roman Catholics would be saved that they would come to the knowledge of of Of Christ That they would that they would repent and put their faith and trust in Christ alone for their salvation so that's that's why we're doing this and For for everything else that that was offensive to to Roman Catholic Roman Catholics my
01:18:14: My plea is that you that you take a look at these things for yourself and that you
01:18:20: You really consider what the Scriptures say and What brother
01:18:26: Tim has laid out for us is that the early church? Believed what Protestants today believe and that's that's very significant because the early church the church fathers they're it's it's it's a common misunderstanding for a lot of evangelicals and Protestants to get
01:18:46: Stuck at the Protestant Reformation and Roman Catholics will try to say, you know, we we can go all the way back to Jesus we're believing what
01:18:54: Jesus believes we have church history on our side and that's a it's a pretty significant argument to make and Tim Kaufman has
01:19:02: Utterly destroyed that argument to show that we are actually believing
01:19:08: Protestants today are actually believing what the early church fathers believed and the early church fathers are actually believing what the scriptures believed and so Tim did you have anything to add to what
01:19:21: I just laid what I just said? Yeah, I really appreciate what you said that the the point here was to show that when
01:19:33: That with addition they used the same scriptures that we do That was the wedding at Cana the presentation in the temple
01:19:41: Mary at the foot of the cross and Mary Intervening and interrupting when
01:19:47: Christ was preaching and I want to in light of what we have heard from the early church,
01:19:54: I Just want to read what Pius the ninth says because what we're asking people to do if you want to be offended at something
01:20:01: Be offended at this. This is what Pius the night said for the Church of Christ Watchful guardian that she is and defender of the dogmas deposited with her
01:20:12: Never changes anything never diminishes anything never adds Anything to them, but with all diligence she treats the ancient documents faithfully and wisely
01:20:25: You want to be offended at something be offended at that Because Pius this night himself knew very well that the early church did not believe what he was teaching in that allegedly infallible proclamation
01:20:37: Go back and read the history. It's not hate. It's history. It's not bashing. It's the Bible This is the scriptural position on Mary the
01:20:46: Roman Catholic position on Mary is not only unscriptural But actually It's just as it's it's an anachronism and novelty in history that didn't arise for 300 years after the
01:20:57: Apostles Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, we will go ahead and close up with that I want to say thank you to Tim Kaufman for coming on once again and we want to remind everybody again that if you if you want to email us that's at semper .refermanda
01:21:14: .radio at gmail .com and We will check everybody next week.
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