July 5, 2017 Show with John Samson on “The Five Solas: Standing Together, Alone!”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this fifth day of July 2017.

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I'm so delighted to have back on the program John Sampson, who is an author and pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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Today we are continuing a discussion we began very recently on the five solas,

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Standing Together Alone, which is a booklet that John has written, now in print and available by Solid Ground Christian Books.

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That's solid -ground -books .com. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor John Sampson.

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It's great to be with you again, Chris. Thank you. I thought it would have been blasphemous to have you on my program yesterday, you being a

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Brit, and yesterday being the great and wonderful holiday on which we commemorate the independence of our nation.

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Yes, you shook off the tyranny of the British Empire, I remember that. Yes, and John is that old, he does remember that.

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But John, kidding aside, I know that you do this every time you come on the program, but if you could let our listeners know about King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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Yeah, we're a Bible -believing Reformed Church here in the northwest valley of Phoenix, and just started in a home not too long ago, moved into a nice facility whereby we meet on a

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Sunday there, and they have the normal activities through the week, but delighted to be there and serve that part of the valley here in Phoenix.

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So your church actually moved out of the home. Why do I keep hearing from people that you belong in a home?

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Yes, yes, we try to keep that quiet. And if anybody wants to look up more information about King's Church in Peoria, Arizona, go to kingschurchaz .com,

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kingschurchaz .com, and we'll be repeating that later on. And of course, you can look up other interviews we've had with John Sampson at ironsharpensironradio .com,

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ironsharpensironradio .com. Look up in the archive, you can type in S -A -M as in Michael S -O -N

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Sampson, just like the biblical figular, figular? Biblical figure without the

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P. And John has a phenomenal, a mind -blowing testimony actually, of how he was once a pastor in the

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Word of Faith Pentecostal movement, and not only a pastor, but even a talk show host on the

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Trinity Broadcasting Network. And he was drawn out of that and delivered from that by the grace and mercy of God after discovering the doctrines of sovereign grace.

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And we are so delighted that John has left that heresy behind him. And in fact, we are both working on the possibility, it's not etched in stone yet, but we are working on the possibility of having

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Kosti Hinn on my program, the nephew of Benny Hinn, who is a

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Reformed pastor. And where is he pastoring, John? In California.

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Yeah, and he is, was he ever a part of the Word of Faith movement like his or was that just something that he was aware of in his family?

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He grew up very much as a Hinn, that's his last name of course, but he functioned as an assistant to Benny, one of the catchers, if you can think of that as a biblical office.

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He was one of the catchers in the services. Yeah, well I'm looking forward to interviewing him with you,

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God willing, if God opens up that door. I have contacted him and I'm awaiting a reply.

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But what we are discussing today isn't even completely removed from that because of the five things that the five solos of the

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Reformation stand for. This booklet that you have written, first of all before we even go into the contents,

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I notice that you've dedicated this booklet, the five solos standing together alone, to R .C.

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Sproul and Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries. Tell us why you did that. Yeah, those two men under God were used very significantly.

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You talked about me coming out of that heretical movement and it was Dr. Sproul who first came to Scottsdale, Arizona, not too far from me, impacted me greatly in that weekend and it caused me to start studying and looking through the

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Scriptures, realizing that he was exposing my shallow understanding and he really helped significantly in that and also

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Dr. James White, both with the theological precision that R .C.

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Sproul brought and then the actual exegesis that the going into the

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Scripture in such detail that Dr. White was able to provide between the two of them, they had a massive influence in my life and James became a friend as well.

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He lives here in the Valley too, but these two men really have impacted me and I just wanted to say so in a public way.

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Well, praise God and a wonderful way to do it when you've got something that you've put into print here and I thank you also for the wonderful personal autograph that you've put in the book with your comment here.

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Oh, it's nice of you to say that. Thank you. Thank you very much and I'm going to announce our email address right now if anybody would like to join us.

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It's chrisarnsen at gmail .com, chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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In fact, I might as well take a question from a listener in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania right now.

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We have Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania who has several questions.

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First of all, she asks, you were a Word of Faith believer according to your testimony.

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How long were you a Word of Faith believer? Do you pastor as a Word of Faith?

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Did you pastor as a Word of Faith preacher? Was your family also believers in Word of Faith?

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Well, the only question that you haven't answered already today is the how long. I'm not sure off the top of my head how long you were in that movement.

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Yeah, I think very early on in my Christian life that's what I would have really designated myself as.

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I was over in England at the time and was part of a local church in Somerset that could be described as that.

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I traveled after Bible training and theological training with a gentleman called

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Harry Greenwood who would be described as really one of the princes or rulers in that realm of Word of Faith.

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I was his associate minister. That was back in 1987. And then pastored a church in England, co -pastored with another young gentleman.

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You were young at the time. And now having come to the United States, started a church in 1993, 1993 here in the

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Phoenix Valley, and it was certainly Word of Faith. So until about 2000. So I would say coming on two decades

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I was in the Word of Faith and pastoring and ministering from 1987 through to the year 2000 as a

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Word of Faith minister. And she asks, was your family also believers in the

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Word of Faith? Yeah, I'd say so. My mother kind of was believing what

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I was preaching, and depending on what I was preaching, she was believing it. And my father was also significantly impacted by it too, but in a strange way also called himself

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Reformed. But you get into that and you think, how can that be? How can that be?

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And I don't know the answer to all of that, but he'll be listening to Martin Lloyd -Jones and Kenneth Copeland, if you can imagine.

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So yeah, very strange. And what led you to minister here in the

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United States, and why Arizona of all places? This is another question from Jenny in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania.

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In the nine months I was with this gentleman called Harry Greenwood, I was his associate minister living in England.

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But we traveled about six months of the nine months outside of England to places like India, Australia, New Zealand, and the

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United States. And each trip was a significant trip in that it wasn't just for a weekend, but for weeks, sometimes even a month at a time.

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And so one of the places we came to was the U .S., and it was in a trip over to Arizona that I was spending quite some time here, and it just kind of felt like home.

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But over time, there was this significant sense of being drawn here that this was where I was supposed to be, and it was unexplainable, except it was just I felt

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I needed to somehow move here. And getting here was an issue because you can't just, believe it or not, get off a plane and start a church.

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You have to have significant paperwork behind you, and it was a two - or three -year process to do that.

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So it really was a determined effort to come based on this just strong desire and a sense that this was to be my home, and there's no other way to explain it other than that, really, because it's very hot right now, as you might know.

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I think it's forecasted 113 for today and something like that.

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Well, I heard a song once that mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun.

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It's all true, and they drink cups of hot tea no matter what the temperature. I've got a cup of tea with me now, and I go outside, and you go into a bank, and they've stopped serving coffee in the banks, you know, long ago.

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But I'm looking wistful as I go in there saying, have you got a hot drink in this weather?

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And yeah, I'm one of those mad dogs. Yeah, I can hardly think of two more opposite places than England.

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I've never been to England, but the image I have in my mind of England and Arizona, the only other place that I could think of more different that would be perhaps

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Hawaii, but where in England were you from? I'm sorry, I forgot. I was hoping you'd remember.

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I forgot too. No. A place called Chester in England, which is about four or five miles from the border with Wales, and it's significant.

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I'll tell you a very quick story. The soccer team in Chester has never been very good, but they were wanting to move to a new stadium, and everyone was excited about the prospect of that until they looked at the plans for the new stadium, and one third of the stadium would be inside the border with Wales, and there was this outcry.

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No, we will not support a team if it's in Wales. Well, only a third of the stadium. We will not.

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They had to cover the plans because the supporters said they wouldn't show up.

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There's so much rivalry between the two countries, and so it's about 20 miles southeast of Liverpool, which

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I'm sure everyone's heard of, and then Manchester is about 40 miles away, and each place has a different accent, believe it or not.

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20 miles and 40 miles, and Chester has its own accent, and it was a city built by the

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Romans in the first century, and there's still a Roman wall going all the way around what was the edge of the city back then.

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It's obviously grown beyond that now, but it takes about 45 minutes to walk around this wall that was built in the first century by the

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Romans there. Quite a lot of history. Not all of it good, but there's a lot of it. And now she finally gets into the heart of the matter of your book.

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She says, this is Benny again. Benny. Jenny in Penn Salem, Pennsylvania says,

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I know that the five solas are the essential doctrines of faith, especially in regard to salvation, that were some of the distinctives of the

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Protestant Reformation of the 16th century. However, I was surprised to learn that the reformers essentially identified three solas, scripture over tradition, faith over works, and grace over merit.

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Can you give us a brief history on how the five solas were developed over time? Yeah, that's interesting.

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We actually touched on that the last time, that the five solas were actually present apart from one another in the writings of the reformers, but they weren't joined together as a unit of five until a 20th century

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Christian had put them that way in print. That's correct.

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And it's kind of a surprise to me that that was the case, but certainly each of those five were mentioned, but no one kind of put them together in that way that we do now of the five solas.

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But you could go back to Martin Luther at the Diet of Worms, this town in Germany, in 1521, where he made his statement, unless I'm convinced by sacred scripture,

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I will not recant. My conscience is held captive to the

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Word of God. And he basically took his stand there, and you could say that scripture alone, being the standard, came out of Luther's mouth at that point.

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Whether it was articulated as sola scriptura straight away, hard to really pinpoint, but certainly he was instrumental in that.

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And if we start with scripture as being the final authority, the sole infallible rule of faith for the church, it's out from that that the other doctrines can be found.

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When we look to scripture, we see that it teaches sola fide, which is faith alone.

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By faith alone, apart from works, we have peace with God, justification, the declaration of God that we're right in his sight.

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So it's out from who speaks for God that we then determine that scripture alone is

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God breathed, has the weight to really bind the human conscience rather than a pope or a bishop or a cardinal or a priest or you or me.

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All of us, as the Bible says, let God be true and every man be a liar. It's God who's spoken in his word, and out from that the other essential doctrines can be found.

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Yes, and that is what separates the true religion, the true gospel, the true

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Christianity of the Reformation in contrast to Rome, the one word alone, because the church of Rome has always believed that faith was essential, that grace is essential, that Christ is essential, that the scriptures are essential, and of course they claim they are glorifying

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God, but the alone part just radically, that one word just radically transforms what would have other been true

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Christianity into an imposter. That's so true, and many don't understand exactly what you just said, and it's powerful and it's vital people grasp that, because people can start reading the literature of authority from Rome, what they've decreed as to dogma, and they're surprised when they come across teachings that affirm that grace is necessary.

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They think, whoa, Rome's changed, haven't they? Grace is necessary? I thought they thought justification was by works, not grace.

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No, they've always, as you've rightly said, insisted on the necessity of grace.

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Grace is absolutely essential in the Roman Catholic scheme of things for salvation, but they also add human merit, human works as equally as essential, so it's not grace alone.

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They cannot sing amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me and fully understand it as the

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Bible would teach it, as grace alone. Ironically, they are singing that in the

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Catholic Church now. They have been, I think, ever since Vatican II or so. It is quite strange for them to be singing that, because they really don't understand what that song is about, what that hymn is about.

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Yeah, that's true not only of the Roman Catholics, but of many Protestants as well.

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I heard of a church on the east coast here in the States that changed, revised the words of the song so that it was not, that saved a wretch like me, but they changed it to saved a person like me.

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Yeah, and Phil Driscoll changed it to someone like me. It really was like a kick in the stomach. Oh, really?

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Really, really. No, we were wretches, and we are apart from the grace of God, and the message of the

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Bible is that Christ died for the ungodly, that justification, according to Romans 4, 4 and 5, is for the ungodly.

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It's not as if God has to wait until we're godly, and then he says, I see. I can analyze this individual.

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Now they're godly. I can declare them godly. No, it's because of Christ, Christ alone, on the basis of his person, his work for us, on that basis, he can declare us right in his sight, because our faith in him allows

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Christ to be all that he is to us and for us, and that's the gospel. Jesus lived for us a righteous life.

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He died for us an atoning death. It was real, literal sins that were transferred to Christ.

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He literally bore them, really did. Isaiah says he was wounded for our transgressions.

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He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement, the punishment we deserved was upon him, and by his stripes we were healed.

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It literally happened, and his righteousness is transferred to us, and on the basis of our faith in him, all that Christ is becomes ours in the gospel.

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Amen. And then finally, Jenny from Ben Salem, Pennsylvania, I think she's trying to get my job here as host of the

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Iron Shards. She says, there have been some suggestions from Anglican bishops to add two more solas to the list, sola ecclesia and sola caritas.

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Are you aware of this, and are these a viable and essential necessity to add?

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Well, it seems that sola ecclesia would totally destroy the meaning of the other solas, the church alone, and I'm actually surprised.

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I'm not 100 % sure that Jenny's accurate or her sources are accurate, but it would seem strange that a non -Roman

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Catholic church would want to add sola ecclesia to the list, and I'm not sure what sola caritas means.

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I'm going to plead ignorance rather than attempt an answer where I'm not really sure.

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I'd need to have access to where that's been said officially by that church to be able to comment on it.

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Well, thanks a lot, Jenny. Keep listening to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and spreading the word about it in Ben Salem, Pennsylvania and beyond.

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Your questions are always a wonderful addition to the

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Iron Sharpens Iron program, and there is some information backing up Jenny's claim here from an

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Anglican website that there is a movement to reconciling evangelical and Anglo -Catholic perspectives, so there was something

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Romish behind this. Anyway, I'd agree with you.

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If you understand sola scriptura, then it negates sola ecclesia, the church alone.

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If the church has spoken, that's the official understanding from God as to how we are to view things, believe things.

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Well, if you believe that, then we don't go to Scripture alone. We go to the church to tell us what

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Scripture means, and that would negate at least the Protestant understanding of sola scriptura, which is to the

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Scriptures alone rightly interpret them. We don't have the right to misinterpret them, but we are responsible to rightly divide the word of truth, as the

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Scripture says, and compare Scripture with Scripture, and we believe in what we call the perpiscuity, a

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Scripture which speaks of its clarity. 2 Timothy 3 says the Scriptures are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and because of the clear message of Scripture on salvation, we don't need to go to anyone else but Scripture or anything else, any other organization, to know what

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God wants us to believe concerning the message of salvation. So anything that would negate that clear, declarative message of the

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Bible is something we should avoid rather than run to. And I found out that sola caritas means love alone, so that can be problematic when you start determining a person, requiring that a person has love before they are justified, because that just gets in the whole, that really muddies the waters of the

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Gospel. And people can misapply that so easily, because what is love?

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Love means to me that this, that, that, and the other, and then another one will say it means this.

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And I was reading Galatians just recently, and just struck by the fact, I hadn't really noticed it before, that Paul is so incensed about the false

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Gospel that the Judaizers were bringing into that Galatian community, that he threatened them and anyone else, including himself, with the anathema of God if they adjust the

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Gospel or preach a different one. And I was reading that Galatian epistle just recently and noticed that right at the end it's in that exact book that he says the fruit of the

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Spirit is love. And you think, well, what he's just done in the first couple of chapters isn't loving, right?

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Not in Paul's eyes, and not in the Holy Spirit's view. The same Holy Spirit that inspired chapters 1 and 2 inspired chapter 5 that speak of the fruit of the

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Spirit being love. And it's loving to tell people the truth of the Gospel and to stand for it and to say, you believe something else and you're under God's anathema.

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That's loving. And not everybody will accept that, but that's the truth.

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We have a first -time questioner, Gordy from Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania.

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And Gordy, I'm just enlarging the font on his question because it's very tiny.

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Which of the five solos do you think is most resisted within the church at large?

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Secondly, which do you think is more contentious within the church at large, the five solos or the five points of Calvinism, and why?

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Lastly, based on your experience within charismatic circles, what approach do you recommend for confronting the doctrinal errors associated with the movement, meaning the charismatic movement?

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Very interesting three -part question or three questions. So the first being, which of the five solos do you think is most resisted within the church at large?

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Well, I know the Church of Rome most clearly resists Sola Scriptura more vociferously because they are more prone to try to cloud the real meanings of the other solos.

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But the Sola Scriptura, in my experience, having arranged debates with Roman Catholics since 1995, that one, of course,

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Sola Fide would be a second one. But they tend to be, it depends on what

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Catholic you're talking to. Some Catholic might want to claim Sola Fide, but cloud the meaning of it.

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But certainly Sola Scriptura, they would all be opposed to. If you could comment on your experience,

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John. Yeah, I think you've made a very valid point. That is true on the

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Roman Catholic side. I think on the Protestant side, it also would be the case that the answer would be, it depends on who you talk to.

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If you find out about the person, what kind of church background they have, you can normally, not always, but normally understand where they're coming from and where the

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Scripture needs to be applied, whether it's to them, to me, all of us. We need to apply

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Scripture to us. And those in the Protestant realm who are influenced by anything other than the

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Bible will look to other things for recognition as to how to approach ministry, how to do counseling.

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There's resistance to anyone who's just going to have a Bible in front of them and counsel in that sense.

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Oh no, we need to know what the world says and get our training from the world. But I believe that Timothy 3, 16 and 17 describes anything that will be involved in Christian ministry, and Paul is telling

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Timothy, whether it's counseling, preaching, teaching, business, people you need to talk to, people with marriage issues, relationship issues, the

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Scripture is sufficient. So there's resistance to that in many, many ways.

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I think in the charismatic realm, there's a lack of understanding of what we have in the

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Scripture, that we certainly need something else according to them. We've got the

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Bible, but we need God to speak to us. Ask God to speak to you, and what they mean by that is outside of the

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Bible. And I love a quote by Steve Lawson, I put it in the new book, about if you want to hear a fresh word from God, just buy yourself a new

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Bible. I like that. Then read it out loud, I think is the second part. Just get yourself a new

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Bible, and you've got a fresh word there. It's true, it's the real temptation that was thrown at Adam and Eve in the garden.

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Has God said it? The first question, as we know, the first question in the entire universe, and it was a question that was really a less than subtle attack on the

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Word of God. You don't have God's Word, or He's holding out on you, you need something else other than God's Word.

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Did God really say, as one translation puts it, well God has spoken, and He's spoken clearly, and anytime we go away from the

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Scripture, or say we need something else, or something more, I believe it's a quick way to deception.

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So it's a strange answer to say it depends on who you talk to, but I think that would be the case.

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A Methodist might answer that differently from a Lutheran, might be very different from someone who's

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Presbyterian, and Baptist. We've all got our blind spots, and all should be seeking to come under the sound of God's Word, and adapt and change where we see what we believe, and what we practice is out of line with what

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God has said. So it really does depend on who it is we're talking to, I think. Right, and then of course you have the ecumenical movement turning out

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Protestants, or so -called Protestants and Evangelicals, who would say we should just drop the solas,

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I mean should drop the solas altogether, and just say that we affirm the need for faith, and grace, and Christ, and the

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Bible, and we need to glorify God. But they would want to extend an olive branch to the

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Church of Rome by removing the solas, and they have already, and it's been going on for over a decade, and longer, where you'll have

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Evangelical ministries that have been around for a long time, and used to have as a mission statement something very close to the five solos, and then they've removed the words alone off of them, in order to be more comfortable for Roman Catholics to either physically join as members of these parachurch groups, or support them with their money.

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But that's a shame, it's pretty sad. But anyway, we have to go to break right now, and we will return to Gordy's other questions.

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He has two more questions that we haven't got to, that I read to you already. And if anybody else would like to join us, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Don't go away, we'll be right back after these messages with more of John Sampson. One sure way all

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And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

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Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience, featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

36:09

And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

36:19

631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

36:26

That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha Omega Ministries.

36:32

The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the

36:38

NASV is widely embraced and trusted as a literal and readable Bible translation. The NASV offers clarity and readability while maintaining high accuracy to the original languages which the

36:47

NASV is known for. The NASV is available in many editions like a topical reference Bible. Researched and prepared by biblical scholars devoted to accuracy, the new topical reference

36:56

Bible includes contemporary topics relevant to today's issues. From compact to giant print

37:02

Bibles, find an NASV that fits your needs very affordably at nasbible .com. Whichever edition you choose, trust, discover, and enjoy the

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NASV for yourself today. Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com.

37:18

Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastor's Study every

37:24

Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

37:34

.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

37:40

Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

37:46

Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a and then let them know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

38:28

Thirdly, you can also donate to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

38:35

and click support at the top of the page. But most importantly, keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in your prayers.

38:42

We hope that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio blesses you for many years to come. Welcome back.

38:48

This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in today, our guest for full two hours with about 90 minutes to go is

38:55

John Sampson. He's an author and pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

39:01

We are continuing a discussion we began recently on Iron Sharpens Iron on the five solas,

39:07

Standing Together Alone, which is a new booklet that Pastor John Sampson has written and which is published by solid -ground -books .com.

39:19

That's Solid Ground Christian Books. Solid -Ground -Books .com. And I urge especially pastors and deacons out there, those that have the authority to order things for your church tract rack.

39:36

This is a booklet that could easily fit in a tract rack, especially if it's one large enough to have the

39:43

Ultimate Questions booklet, which is a very famous booklet amongst Christians spanning denominational lines.

39:50

I would urge you to buy these in bulk, especially because of the fact that it's the 500th anniversary of the

39:58

Protestant Reformation, and it's easy to hand these out and inexpensive enough to hand out in large numbers to inform people, not only your own congregations, but visitors as to what is so important about the 500th anniversary of the

40:16

Protestant Reformation. So go to solid -ground -books .com and order this booklet, and please try to order it in bulk.

40:23

Even if you're not an authority in your church, order them for yourself in bulk so you can hand them out like tracts to individuals.

40:32

It's a really well summarized work addressing the five solos of the

40:41

Reformation. Our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

40:49

And please at least give us your first name, your city, and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

40:56

USA. And Gordy in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania also asked, which do you think is more contentious within the church at large, the five solos or the five points of Calvinism?

41:13

And I would say that the five points of Calvinism are more contentious because not only have you set apart yourself from the rest of the religious world and from Christendom with being

41:28

Protestant, but this even further separates you by being uniquely

41:33

Calvinistic and attributing a hundred percent of the praise, honor, and glory, and thanksgiving to God for your salvation.

41:42

But if you could comment as well, Pastor John. Yeah, I would agree.

41:47

I just would echo what you've just said, that the five solos certainly set you apart from Rome and every other man -made kind of religion, but the doctrines of grace take you further into biblical truth and designations and distinctions that need to be understood to have a truly biblical understanding of salvation, how it works.

42:12

I would think, though, that the grace alone aspect is very misunderstood in the

42:21

Protestant world, because properly understood, the

42:26

Reformers were preaching and teaching what we would call monogism, one power, one party working to effect regeneration, and that was understood in the grace alone teaching, that our salvation rests solely alone on the work of God's grace for us rather than a cooperation, which is where many in the

42:51

Protestant world now are. They would say, well, I'm saved by grace alone, but they believe that their human action is what caused them to be saved, whereas properly understood, grace alone encompasses the idea that even the faith that we have and that the faith that we exercise is because of God's grace to us given to his elect people.

43:15

So in a microcosm form, all of the doctrines of grace are found in that expression of grace alone, but not everybody understands that, and that's a contention in our own day.

43:31

And then lastly, Gordy from Mechanicsburg asks, based on your experience within the charismatic circles, what approach do you recommend for confronting the doctrinal errors associated with the movement?

43:48

And that actually does tie in, it might be unexpected that it would tie in for many folks, but I think, and I believe you have asserted this on previous interviews, that the charismatic movement, just as the

44:02

Church of Rome, but perhaps for different reasons, really denies Sola Scriptura, because it is not sufficient in the minds of many charismatics, especially the more extreme versions of them like the

44:13

Word of Faith movement. Yeah, I have to agree, and the question seemed to be, you know, how would you go about talking to people who are still involved in that?

44:26

And I think if you can sit them down and say, let's open our Bibles and have a discussion, that's a lot further than most people get in that kind of a discussion.

44:37

But if we look to the Scripture, we see it making claims on itself that certainly

44:43

I don't know many charismatics who have made the same claim for themselves. They say that God spoke to them, they say it over and over, the

44:52

Lord told me this, the Lord said this, I was having a dream and the Lord showed me this, and all of that.

44:58

But very few are sufficiently bold and brash to say, this is the 67th book of the

45:07

Bible now. I'm writing Scripture when I write down my thoughts or what I think God said to me.

45:12

None of them put it on that level. But that's exactly the point. It isn't on that level. Yeah, and if they were consistent, if they were logically consistent, they would, though, say it's the 67th book of the calendar.

45:24

Yeah, exactly. And if we start with that as the premise, can we then sit that person down and say, so are you claiming that what you felt between your ears, your thoughts, are on the level of Scripture?

45:40

And very few would say yes. And if they do say no, then explore that, and I would say, open up the

45:48

Scriptures on the subject and go there, and I love to go into churches that have, say, a charismatic element within them, and the pastor says, look, we need to really bring some soundness here, and just walk people through the

46:04

Scriptures. Let them see for themselves the value of Scripture, the authority of Scripture, and when they see the

46:11

Bible in that light, they know that anything else is certainly less authoritative.

46:18

And you just go down that line and say, now, is it authoritative at all? Where are you getting this authority to say, you know for certain that God spoke to you?

46:28

The Bible is God speaking to us, and it's Jesus who gives us that view of Scripture.

46:35

It's Jesus who quoted a passage in the book of Exodus and said, have you not read what was said to you by God?

46:43

You read of this in Matthew 22, 31, and without getting into all of the details there, he's speaking to people alive in his day, which happen to be the

46:53

Sadducees, and many generations after the book of Exodus was written, and to those people, in just so many words, he was saying, when you read a passage in Exodus, though it's written centuries before, and said to a completely different group of people of a different age, when you're doing that,

47:14

God is speaking to you. That's Jesus' view of the Scripture. And so he likewise didn't point to anything else, but the

47:24

Scripture is authoritative. Paul, in saying goodbye to Timothy in his letter to Timothy in 2

47:31

Timothy, was not in any way pointing him to Peter as a pope or to some other authority.

47:41

No. All Scripture, Timothy, is given by inspiration of God, by God himself, and it's all you'll need for your life and ministry.

47:50

And that's similar to what he did with the Ephesian elders that met in Miletus in Acts chapter 20.

47:56

Now I commend you to God. I'm going, you won't see my face again. I'm going. I'm not giving you

48:03

Peter's cell phone number to speak. I'm out of here.

48:12

There's Pete's cell phone number. There's his email. No. Any other question? Talk to him.

48:19

No. Now I commend you to God and to the word of his grace, which is able to give you, build you up and give you the inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

48:29

So Paul was consistent. I'm about to leave. I'm leaving you with the Scripture, even though savage wolves are going to come, they're going to preach something else.

48:37

You don't need brother Peter as the authority. Go to Scripture and start there.

48:44

Work through that. And that's something I wanted to make clear. And you mentioned the booklet and, you know,

48:50

I thought it was a book, but the publisher said it's a booklet, but it really is.

48:55

It's deliberately short. It's 31 pages and it would have been a lot easier to make it 90 pages.

49:03

And a hundred pages. But the problem I was having would be that there are some terrific books out there on the

49:09

Solas, the five Solas. And I'd give them to people and three or four weeks later, say, how'd you get on?

49:15

Did it help? And they, people are not used to reading books like they once were.

49:20

Oh, you mean the thing I use as a doorstop? I haven't looked at that. Exactly.

49:26

I've given the books away and I think, yeah, I'm just waiting for the phone call when they tell me that changed my life and it doesn't come because they haven't read it.

49:35

And so I thought, is there anything out there that's brief enough and yet simplifies the, the message that we need to communicate, but without distorting it,

49:45

I couldn't find anything that I was thrilled to say, Oh, I could put that in their hands.

49:50

And so that's why I went about the task. And the hardest thing was making it small. It was, it had been so easy to make it a hundred pages.

49:57

And I thought, no, let's, let's pray. And let's ask God, can we hone this down to say the essential things people need to know?

50:04

And so that they could read this entire book, booklet, whatever we call it in less than an hour.

50:11

And that's what I, that's what I set out to do. And I'm really thrilled that it's the size.

50:17

It is just 31 pages. And as you say, a booklet that you can hand to people I've just ordered in the last week or so a hundred, cause

50:25

I want to just put them in the hands of people, people I know at the bank, people I know who cut my hair.

50:31

It's, it's, it's just something that I think it's, it's like a track, but it takes them into the heart of the

50:36

Christian faith and why we believe what we believe, why these doctrines are so important rather than just something of historical interest.

50:47

And before we go to our next question, the last question that we already addressed from Gordy in Mechanicsburg about the charismatic movement.

51:01

Wouldn't you say that something to challenge your average charismatic on might be the fact, especially when we're talking about the

51:11

Pentecostal denominations, which seem to be universal in their agreement that speaking in tongues is the sign of the baptism of the

51:23

Holy Spirit and the, it's not a sign, it's the sign. And I, what

51:29

I say to my Pentecostal friends that agree with that, I say, how can something so important as the baptism of the

51:38

Holy Spirit have as its sign, have as the sign something that could be very, very easily faked even by a child?

51:51

How could, how could you have people who can easily produce a counterfeit tongue, how could that be a sign unless people in, in very, who speak various different languages are listening to these people and can understand the gospel?

52:10

That's the only way that it makes it a sign. If it's, if it's just something that somebody babbling incoherent words or, or non -words sounds is a better way of describing it.

52:25

I'm not trying to be offensive to those of you who are my charismatic brethren. I do have a lot of brothers and sisters in Christ who are charismatic and even charismatic

52:33

Calvinists that I know. But I don't understand how that could be considered a sign. That's a very, very good point.

52:42

And people in false religions, many of them are able to, quote -unquote, speak in tongues.

52:49

Mormons? Yeah. And other false religions. All kinds of Eastern religions in India are known to speak in tongues.

52:59

And the reason I have come to my understanding and have, you know, resisted now the, the baptism in the spirit understanding that I once had and articulated, sadly, is it goes against everything

53:17

I read in the New Testament now. It's as if my eyes are open because what happened at Pentecost and the giving of the

53:28

Holy Spirit was the uniting of believers from every kind of race, from Jews to Gentiles.

53:38

They were there in Jerusalem, people from throughout the known world.

53:44

They were Jews there for the day of Pentecost, but there was a uniting work. And that was really what happened.

53:51

I've been preaching through the book of Ephesians. It's kind of message number 41 or 42, speaking through the book.

54:00

But the whole message in chapter 2 was that God has brought the wall down, the wall that divided

54:09

Jew and Gentile. The Holy Spirit's work is to show our unity in Christ. And I mention that because the understanding

54:18

I had led to a two -tier form of Christianity, those who are

54:23

Christians but don't have the baptism in the spirit or speak in tongues, and those that do.

54:29

And as sad as it may seem, there were those in my former camp who looked down on anyone who didn't speak in tongues and said, well, you can't get anything from that guy.

54:40

He doesn't speak in tongues. He doesn't, he's not filled with the Spirit. Billy Graham can't receive anything from him.

54:46

He doesn't speak in tongues. R .C. Sproul doesn't speak in tongues. And there was this whole section of the body of Christ that were lower.

54:54

It's almost like a caste system. Those who don't have the empowering of the Spirit, the baptism in the

55:01

Spirit, however, whatever term would be used. And it led to a very distinct two -tier system, which is the exact opposite of what the

55:11

Holy Spirit's work is. And you read the Scripture, it says, by one Spirit we've all been baptized into the

55:19

Holy Spirit, because we're in Christ. And so with what you said, it's so easy to fake the sign, if that is the sign, and the entire message of the

55:29

New Testament, which is the Holy Spirit makes us all one. There were two tiers, Jew and Gentile.

55:34

That's all gone now. You think now that there's still two tiers, those with the Spirit, those without?

55:40

No. Every Christian has received the Holy Spirit, and he's a person. He's not, you don't get half the

55:48

Holy Spirit or a little of the Spirit. You receive the Holy Spirit in conversion. He is the one who comes, lives in the heart of every true believer.

55:57

And Romans 8 verse 9 makes that very clear. He who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Christ.

56:05

So those are the two things I think that it would be paramount to say. Yeah, and some of you might be surprised about what

56:14

I said about Mormons and tongues. I don't know how common speaking in tongues amongst

56:20

Mormons is today, but the seventh article of faith in the

56:27

Mormon Church says we believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

56:34

Both males and females can receive spiritual gifts. They are an important component in both the basic beliefs and daily living of Mormons.

56:44

But anyway, thank you very much Gordy, and you as a first -time questioner have won a free

56:53

New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. And we're going to be going to a break right now, and when we return

57:00

I just want to read a brief word of encouragement from Gordy in Mechanicsburg that he sent to me.

57:08

Gordy is not a first -time listener, but a first -time questioner. He's apparently been listening to the program for quite some time.

57:15

But when we return from the break, we will start with that brief word of encouragement from Gordy.

57:23

And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

57:30

Don't go away. We'll be right back after these messages. Hi, I'm Chris Arnson, host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, here to tell you about an exciting offer from World Magazine, my trusted source for news from a

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastors Study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the

01:01:14

Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

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That's liyfc .org. Lindbrook Baptist Church on 225

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Earl Avenue in Lindbrook, Long Island, is teaching God's timeless truths in the 21st century. Our church is far more than a

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We're a diverse family of all ages enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship, play, and together.

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And how about the preaching? Perhaps you've begun to think that in -depth biblical exposition has vanished from Long Island.

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Well, there's good news. Wedding River Baptist Church exists to provide believers with a meaningful and reverent worship experience featuring the systematic exposition of God's Word.

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And this loving congregation looks forward to meeting you. Call them at 631 -929 -3512 for service times.

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631 -929 -3512. Or check out their website at wrbc .us.

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That's wrbc .us. I'm James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries.

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The New American Standard Bible is perfect for daily reading or in -depth study. Used by pastors, scholars, and everyday readers, the

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Welcome back this is

01:06:10

Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than an hour to go is

01:06:16

John Sampson. In fact he was the voice of Charles Haddon Spurgeon that you just heard in that ad for Solid Ground Christian Books and we are discussing

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I believe and that was before the booklet of the same title was in print and now it is in print through solid -ground -books .com.

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solid -ground -books .com. That's Solid Ground Christian Books and before we return to the discussion on The Five Solas I have some important announcements to make.

01:06:55

This August from the 3rd through the 5th the Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the

01:07:01

Deering Center Community Church in Portland Maine and I am planning to be there

01:07:06

God willing and I hope you join me there. Guests or should I say speakers include

01:07:12

Don Curran who is our guest tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Don Curran is not only the founder of Don Curran Ministries but he's also the

01:07:23

Eastern European coordinator with HeartCry Missionary Society which is the organization founded by Paul Washer.

01:07:30

Make sure you mark your calendar for tomorrow or your alarm for tomorrow so you can listen to Don Curran's interview with us on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio 4 to 6 p .m.

01:07:41

Eastern Time tomorrow. That's Thursday the 6th of July. Also speaking at the

01:07:46

Fellowship Conference New England is my friend Pastor Mac Tomlinson who is an author and pastor of the

01:07:53

Providence Chapel in Denton Texas and I ask of your prayers once again for my oldest brother

01:07:59

John who is in his early 70s experiencing a critical condition emphysema and he has been stubborn and not willing to visit

01:08:11

Pastor Mac Tomlinson who is only 10 minutes away from him in Texas. So pray that the

01:08:18

Lord softens my brother's heart and saves his soul and brings a meeting about between him and Pastor Mac Tomlinson in Denton Texas.

01:08:30

Also speaking at the Fellowship Conference New England is Pastor Jesse Barrington of Grace Life Church in Dallas Texas which is the sister church of Grace Life Church in Lake City Florida whose radio station airs

01:08:42

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio every day in its pre -recorded form. And last but not least

01:08:47

Pastor Nate Pikowitz who is the pastor of Harvest Bible Church in Gilmanton Ironworks New Hampshire and he is the author of Reviving New England.

01:08:58

We just recently interviewed Pastor Nate on that book. If you'd like to register for this conference go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com

01:09:07

that's fellowshipconferencenewengland .com and then in November from the 17th through the 18th the

01:09:14

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is running their Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology.

01:09:19

I intend to be there as well with an exhibitors booth for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. This is being held at the

01:09:26

Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown Pennsylvania. The theme is For Still Our Ancient Foe a line from Martin Luther's hymn

01:09:34

A Mighty Fortress. Speakers include Kent Hughes, Peter Jones, Tom Nettles, Dennis Cahill and Scott Oliphant.

01:09:42

If you'd like to register for the Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology go to alliancenet .org alliancenet .org

01:09:50

click on events and then click on Quakertown Conference on Reform Theology. And then we have coming up in January from the 17th through the 20th the

01:10:03

G3 Conference. It returns to Atlanta Georgia on the theme Knowing God a

01:10:08

Biblical Understanding of Discipleship. January 17th is exclusively a Spanish edition of the

01:10:15

G3 Conference and then from the 18th through the 20th we have the English version of the conference featuring

01:10:21

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Votie Balcom, H .B. Charles Jr., Tim Challies, Josh Bice, Dr.

01:10:27

James R. White, Tom Askell, Anthony Mathenia, Michael Kruger, David Miller, Paul Tripp, Todd Friel, Derek Thomas and Martha Peace.

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If you would like to register for the G3 Conference 2018 go to g3conference .com

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That would mean a lot to us. Last but not least I have to remind you that Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is in urgent need of finances.

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If you could find it within your heart and within your checking account to help us with a check of any amount.

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But if you are blessed above and beyond your ability to do both of those things because those two things are commands of God.

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Sponsoring or helping Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is not a command of God. But if you love the program if it benefits you if you have it as a part of your regular daily life then please consider giving to us if you can a gift of any amount.

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In fact we thank from the bottom of our hearts all of you who have already begun giving regularly to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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And now if you'd like to also send us a question for John Sampson use that same email address chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

01:12:52

And before I go to another question for John Sampson Gordy in Mechanicsburg sent me a very encouraging note.

01:13:01

It's so encouraging to me that it's one of those things where I'm wondering if people are going to think that I'm bragging about myself by reading it.

01:13:13

But I'll worry about that later. Gordy in Mechanicsburg says, Hi Chris, just wanted to pass on a word of encouragement.

01:13:21

I've been tremendously blessed by your program. In my opinion the best Christian radio podcast program ever.

01:13:30

Your professionalism combined with the consistent quality of your guests is unmatched. Please also know

01:13:36

I'm praying for you personally as well as the Iron Trump and Zion ministry. God's best to you my brother.

01:13:42

That really arrived just when I needed to hear it most. Thank you so much

01:13:47

Gordy in Mechanicsburg Pennsylvania. We look forward to hearing a lot more from you via questions for our guests on Iron Trump and Zion radio and I look forward to meeting you in person in the very near future since you are so very close to me geographically.

01:14:05

And by the way Mechanicsburg is a trivia question. Mechanicsburg is a town in Pennsylvania where James White, a mutual friend of my guest and mine,

01:14:19

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, spent a good time, a good portion of his youth in Mechanicsburg.

01:14:25

His father sold mobile homes in Mechanicsburg and James White was baptized as a young boy at the

01:14:35

Bible Church of Charmantown Pennsylvania in Mechanicsburg or in the

01:14:42

Mechanicsburg area where our listener Gordy is a member. So James White was actually baptized in our listener

01:14:50

Gordy's congregation Bible Baptist Church of Charmantown Pennsylvania.

01:14:58

That's an interesting trivia statement I should say that I want to share with you.

01:15:07

We have Joe in Slovenia. He asks you

01:15:14

Pastor John, dear brother Chris, please ask brother John to speak to this quote that I read today.

01:15:21

There is no salvation that can be had in a hope that is either completely or partially hinged upon our own works, righteousness, good behavior, political affiliation, altruism, philanthropy, or verbal assent of other

01:15:40

Christian doctrines. Our hope must be in an unmerited grace that comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ.

01:15:48

One cannot be saved by the blood of Jesus without trusting in the blood of Jesus and his resurrected body alone.

01:15:57

Faith is a combination of belief and trust and there are a great many in this world who believe wholeheartedly in the death and resurrection of Jesus.

01:16:06

Roman Catholics are perhaps the most prominent example but can also include Mormons and others who do not trust in that accomplished work alone for their salvation.

01:16:16

Our confessions hold that they are lost and dead in their trespasses and sins should they not trust in Christ's atonement alone to save.

01:16:25

Trusting partially in your own meritorious works is to remain completely condemned.

01:16:32

How important is it for us to be clear on this topic in our day?

01:16:40

Thank you for focusing on Reformation. I will show your comments on that very lengthy quote,

01:16:46

Pastor John. I would absolutely agree, and it's a startling thing to say, but that's the message of the

01:16:55

Gospel. It strikes against every kind of pretender, and the pretender is that which would mix grace with anything else.

01:17:04

Because the point of the New Testament—I'm thinking specifically of verses like Romans 11 and 6—it says that for grace to be grace, works have no part in it.

01:17:18

It's very, very clear. For grace to be grace, it's a gift, and we're all aware of schemes on the television or radio whereby they say, call in for your free gift, and there's always—or many, many times, anyway—a stipulation which means it's not actually free.

01:17:39

Yeah, I love the way that these commercials I've been seeing on TV, they'll actually say, get a second one free, just pay a separate fee.

01:17:48

That doesn't make any sense! Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Or pay $300 shipping, you know?

01:17:59

Yeah, I think we covered the cost of the shipping there. I think we did, yeah. You could ship a piano for $300.

01:18:08

Yeah, yeah. Romans 11 and 6, but if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

01:18:19

The point the Apostle is making is, we're saved by grace, but for grace to be grace, it cannot be a mixture of grace and works.

01:18:28

And so that clearly is the message, and Romans 4 talks about the one who works when he gets paid, using the business analogy.

01:18:38

You work for an employer, you agree that you'll work for a certain rate, perhaps $10 an hour or $20 or more an hour, and you do a work and you get paid, you don't consider what you are paid as a gift because you work for it.

01:18:53

And the message of the New Testament is that grace is a gift, it's not something earned.

01:18:59

Ephesians 2, 8 and 9 couldn't be more clear. By grace you're saved through faith and that not of yourselves.

01:19:07

It's the gift of God. And when God offers salvation as a gift, there are no strings attached.

01:19:14

It's grace plus nothing. It's faith plus nothing, and that's why we talk of grace alone and faith alone in Christ alone, not

01:19:25

Christ plus the intervention of Mary or the saints or anyone else. It's Christ who saves by himself alone.

01:19:32

And so mixing any of these things means a different gospel, and there's only one that saves, the pure gospel of grace.

01:19:41

And it's in that context that Paul writes in Galatians 1, I marvel that you are so soon turning from him who called you by the grace of Christ to a different gospel.

01:19:52

And then he says, but it's really not another true gospel. It's another of a different kind.

01:19:58

There's only one. And to mix grace with anything else means we've forsaken and abandoned the true gospel.

01:20:06

And it's the gospel of Christ that saves, and it's the pure gospel of Christ. When we look to Christ and say, the only thing

01:20:13

I can bring to the world to be saved is my sin. I can't bring my merits.

01:20:18

I have none. I only have demerits. All my righteousness is as filthy rags, according to Isaiah 64 .6.

01:20:28

See, the religious mind could understand if the Bible says all our unrighteousness is like filthy rags, but the

01:20:34

Bible says our righteousness is filthy rags. And the religious mind cannot grasp that.

01:20:40

We have to try and think, well, I can cover myself by certain things I've done, and God says, why are you bringing an abhorrent thing to me as a form of getting to me and acquitting yourself?

01:20:55

Your righteousness is as filthy rags, not merely your unrighteousness. Anything you can do to try and get to God is a denial of the beauty and the grandeur and the majesty of grace.

01:21:10

Amen. And, you know, it reminds me, I heard this analogy a long time ago, years ago, so I don't even remember where I heard it.

01:21:20

But someone was comparing adding our own works as something meritorious to our salvation.

01:21:32

Could you imagine if you had heard that someone in your neighborhood was in the military and there was another person from the same hometown in the military who gave his life on the battlefield rescuing the other person who was lying there, bleeding and unconscious and awaiting certain death, had not the hero from the neighborhood carried that unconscious soldier on his back out of harm's way only to be shot himself and killed?

01:22:19

Could you imagine the person who was rescued, the soldier who was rescued, telling the parents of the hero who died, well,

01:22:30

I helped myself as well. I do thank your son for giving his life for me, but I helped, you know.

01:22:38

I'm glad that I had enough strength within me and enough common sense to help myself get rescued from that perilous situation.

01:22:48

Can you imagine how hurtful and horrifying a statement like that,

01:22:56

I should say, would be to those parents? Well, just magnify that billions and trillions and quadrillions of times over when it comes to what

01:23:05

Christ did for us. How dare anyone actually think that anything they did added to Calvary, added to what

01:23:14

Christ received on the cross, the wrath of our Father. I mean, it's really a mockery of what he accomplished, is it not?

01:23:25

Yeah, and people don't see it in those terms, but that's exactly how God sees it, which is the most important thing, that we're denigrating the work of his son, that we're saying, yeah,

01:23:36

I appreciate that he did quite a lot for my salvation, but I'm the one who turned everything and made it happen by my choice, my will, my ability, my humble attitude towards the sacrifice of Christ.

01:23:52

I'm taking some of the glory. What can I do? It was because of me that I'm in the kingdom, ultimately.

01:23:59

Christ did a whole lot, but it's me that made the decisive action.

01:24:05

Again, how scandalous that is. I hear the passion in your voice because I feel it's the passion of the heart of God, and that's what we see in the

01:24:13

New Testament. You want to see Paul stirred up and angry in just about every other place where he writes to either an individual or a church, he starts by thanking

01:24:23

God for them, even though he's going to, like in 1 Corinthians, correct a whole lot of things.

01:24:28

There was probably no church like the Corinthians that had issues of disorder and things that were happening that were very, very disheartening.

01:24:38

People taking sides, saying, I listen to this guy, Paul, but I don't listen to that guy,

01:24:44

Apollos, and vice versa, and there were factions in the church, and he had to address all of that, but he still started by saying,

01:24:51

I thank God for you, and because of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and so he went on. But you come to Galatians, he doesn't even stop to thank

01:24:59

God for these Galatians because he was passionate about the gospel.

01:25:07

He just immediately just... It's as if there was a mailman in those days carrying the letter.

01:25:14

He must have had to have asbestos gloves, you know, to handle the fire that was in this letter from Paul.

01:25:21

I marvel that you so soon turned, and he sounded just like you, Chris. He was a man inflamed with passion because they were believing something else, and it was a denigration of all that Christ had done for them.

01:25:34

Who has bewitched you, you foolish Galatians? Galatians 3.

01:25:40

One translation says, Galatian idiots. You know, he just lets it loose, and he's passionate, and people in our day think it's wrong to be passionate, but it's actually the right thing.

01:25:54

If you and I understand what Christ has done, how pure that gospel is, woe unto me, woe unto you, woe unto anyone who messes with the gospel.

01:26:05

By the way, thank you, Joe, in Slovenia for the very good question.

01:26:10

Keep spreading the word about Iron Sharpens Iron Radio in Slovenia and beyond. We have David in Ada, Ohio, who asks,

01:26:18

How does the sola scriptura... I guess it should be read or written...

01:26:24

How does sola scriptura apply when different interpretations are applied to the scriptures?

01:26:31

Below is a verse and a passage where I have heard different meanings applied to each. In the first, the mystery is specifically that the

01:26:40

Gentiles are fellow heirs, which I see as speaking against the separation between Israel and the church.

01:26:47

In the second passage, some apply this to the future state of Christians when it clearly says

01:26:55

God has revealed these things to us, meaning what's spoken of is salvation and all the benefits resulting from being saved.

01:27:04

I think that basically you could even summarize David's question by merely saying,

01:27:11

How can we adhere to sola scriptura when even Bible -believing Christians disagree on certain passages in the

01:27:17

Bible? That's really a way that you could summarize his question. Yeah, and it's a good question because that was the objection of Rome at the time of the

01:27:27

Reformation to the Bible coming out in the language of the vernacular, the language that people spoke in and conversed in, whether that was

01:27:37

German with Luther in his translation or whether it was Wycliffe and then others who were used of God for the

01:27:45

English language, William Tyndale being the chief one. Why would they have a problem with the

01:27:51

Bible coming out? They had a problem because they knew what would happen. People would misinterpret it. And the

01:27:57

Reformers were never saying, We have the right to misinterpret the Bible. No, they did not.

01:28:03

They believe we have, maybe in America now, we have the legal right to be idolaters and get things wrong theologically.

01:28:13

But the Bible and certainly God doesn't give us that right. He wants us to search out the scriptures. And one of the things that is the product of the

01:28:21

Reformation is what we call hermeneutics, which is the science of biblical interpretation.

01:28:28

And there are laws that we use which are commonly understood. And when there are two differing and contrasting opinions over what a text means, both parties need to assume that one at least is right if we're saying contradictory things about what a passage means.

01:28:50

There's only one correct meaning. There may be a hundred, even a thousand applications of the text.

01:28:57

I might apply it in my relationships differently to someone else in theirs.

01:29:03

But at the same time, it only means what it says and what it meant to the original audience.

01:29:09

And that's why certain background information is needed to rightly understand the text, what a word meant in the century in which it was said or written.

01:29:19

That needs to be taken on board. But there are laws. And here's the answer in a nutshell.

01:29:25

When there are differing interpretations, there is someone, at least one party, not applying sola scriptura correctly.

01:29:37

The problem is not with sola scriptura. The problem is someone is not rightly applying sola scriptura.

01:29:45

Going to the scripture alone, we're seeing something other than what the scripture says. We've read into the text rather than draw out from the text what it says.

01:29:54

And so the principle of sola scriptura remains and is established and is in no way impugned by a misinterpretation.

01:30:03

What happens in that case is someone is not rightly dividing the word of truth the scripture speaks about.

01:30:10

Someone is not applying the rules of hermeneutics. And here's the problem. We don't always see our own blind spots, and that's why we need one another.

01:30:20

We need not only the people in the church of our day to help us, but the church through the centuries. Again, we have a kind of theological snobbery to look down at former ages and think we know far more than them.

01:30:34

But really, for us to think that we're coming up now with the true interpretation of the text when great men of God through the ages have labored their whole lives over the scriptures, we're foolish if we then think, well,

01:30:50

God is starting now fresh with me. No, God has given the Holy Spirit to the church and has given gifts to the church for the edification of the body of Christ.

01:31:02

But some of them have listened to us and got infallible information.

01:31:11

The scripture is infallible. It's really helpful, and we're very, very foolish if we think we can do without our brothers and sisters in Christ who have labored in the word before us.

01:31:24

So somewhere down the line we've messed up, but the actual principle of Sola Scriptura remains established.

01:31:30

The scripture alone is the word of God, and rightly interpreting the scripture is our responsibility.

01:31:37

By the way, you were cutting out, but we got the vast majority of what you said. I don't know if you're using a cell phone or if the battery is dying on your phone, but you were cutting out quite a bit, but I know that we did get the main content and gist of what you were saying.

01:31:52

And we're going to our final break right now. And by the way, for those of you who think that Rome has some kind of superiority because they have an infallible magisterium, although that is what they say, that's what they claim, doesn't mean that's a reality, and an infallible pope they claim in regard to faith and morals.

01:32:19

Well, that has not prevented, that claim anyway, has not prevented the Church of Rome for its entire existence, which is not 2 ,000 years by the way, that is not the church that Jesus founded, but for its entire existence, perhaps even if you want to say officially since the

01:32:39

Council of Trent, when many of the things that the Protestant reformers found abhorrent were declared as dogma, you don't have any consistency or true unity in the

01:32:55

Roman Catholic Church. You have all kinds of Roman Catholics, you have probably more divisions in the

01:33:02

Roman Catholic Church as far as ideology, philosophy, and theology, you probably have more divisions than you do amongst conservative evangelicals.

01:33:13

I mean, you have all kinds of liberal and leftist and bizarre ideas within the umbrella of Roman Catholicism, and I'm not to say that they don't exist amongst evangelicals either, but we're not claiming to be a one true monolithic perfect church as they would claim, and I'm not saying that they would claim that the people are perfect, but the

01:33:37

Church has not fostered unity throughout their entire history.

01:33:43

Am I right on that? Yeah, absolutely, and very good point you're making.

01:33:49

They've got a big roof, but under the roof there's a lot of infighting and absolutely diametrically opposed understandings of even what is meant by the terms of the dogmas that they are supposedly all embracing, and so the priest that you might meet on 19th

01:34:11

Avenue and a certain street in your city may have a different understanding than someone who's a priest in Mexico or in Italy or somewhere else.

01:34:23

There's not this monolithic understanding, and what is very, very clear is the doctrines that are espoused by Rome today were certainly unknown in the first, second, third, fourth century.

01:34:35

The doctrines about Mary, and they make quite an assumption about her, I understand. Yeah, in fact, there would be many modern day

01:34:46

Catholics that would even be considered conservative in the 21st century who would have been executed in the days of the

01:34:53

Council of Trent for heresy. What's interesting to me is when we look at the

01:34:59

Reformation and the great split that occurred there, the differences have not been marginalized since that time, because Rome has not in any way backed down with her anathemas against the

01:35:13

Reformation and those who hold to faith alone and all of those essential doctrines we're talking about, but there's been added dogma since the

01:35:24

Reformation concerning Mary. That's right. Divisions, at least on a paper level, are more diverse than they were 500 years ago.

01:35:35

Yeah, even as recent as the 1950s, and Robertson Jenis told me,

01:35:41

Robertson Jenis, who's a Roman Catholic apologist, he says there's even some question amongst

01:35:46

Roman Catholics as to whether something that John Paul II declared should be considered dogma, and you're talking about the the 1990s and early 2000s here.

01:36:00

So anyway, we have to go to our final break right now. If you'd like to join us, now is the time to do it.

01:36:06

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

01:36:13

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

01:36:18

USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, with John Sansom right after these messages.

01:36:23

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God? Or am

01:36:29

I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

01:36:38

We are a Reformed Baptist Church, and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

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We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts. We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how

01:36:49

God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things. That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the

01:36:57

Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either. We believe, by God's grace, that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man, and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us, and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

01:37:13

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

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You can call us at 508 -528 -5750, that's 508 -528 -5750, or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our

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609 -494 -5689. Harvey Cedars, where Christ finds people and changes lives.

01:45:26

Welcome back. This is Chris Sorensen, and this is the last 15 minutes of our program today with John Sampson, author and pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona.

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We have been discussing the Five Solas, Standing Together Alone, a new booklet that our guest has written published by Solid Ground Christian Books.

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Solid -Ground -Books .com. Solid -Ground -Books .com is where you can get this booklet, and I urge you to order them in bulk and have your church order them in bulk because they should be given out to everyone who asks us a question about our faith and about why we find the 500th anniversary of the

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Protestant Reformation important. We have a listener who is not a first -time questioner but a first -time,

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I don't even know how to phrase this, a first -time encourager. And I'm assuming by his wording that he knows you,

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Pastor John. He says, Hi there, Chris. This is Pastor Tim from Connecticut.

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I just wanted to say how thankful I am for Brother John Sampson and his friendship, as well as his accent.

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Ha ha! Thank you for having him on your show today. As a pastor who is striving for reform in a 225 -year -old church in New England, men like you and Brother John are a huge blessing and help.

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Blessings to you both. Pastor Tim Howard. You know who this individual is, Pastor John? Yeah, I've got to know him over the last few weeks only, and yet we've been in so much correspondence.

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We feel like we've known each other a long time. It's nice that he wrote in to express that.

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He's a great guy. I'm glad he's listening and enjoying your ministry through this

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Iron Sharpens Iron program that you do. Do you know what church he is the pastor of?

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I do. I've got it written down, but I don't want to misquote what it is, but I could look it up and find it on...

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Well, let me just say, while you're looking for it... Keep talking, just keep... Ha ha ha! While you're looking for it,

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Pastor Tim, if you're listening still, you have, just by virtue of the fact that you have written in for the very first time, even though technically it's not a question, you have won a free

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New American Standard Bible, compliments of the publishers of the NASB. So please give us your full mailing address in Connecticut where that can be shipped to you, compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, C -V for Cumberland Valley, B -B -S for Bible Book Service dot com,

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C -V -B -B -S dot com. And do you ever find... Eastford Baptist Church there in Connecticut, I believe.

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Eastford? Eastford, E -A -S -T, yes. F -O -R -D?

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Yes. Okay, Eastford Baptist Church, and perhaps, as I said,

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Pastor Tim, if you could get me your full mailing address, we'll have that Bible shipped out to you. And we thank the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible for being such faithful supporters of Iron, Sharp, and Zion radio ever since we were launched back in 2005, 2006, somewhere in that area.

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And this, the five solos of the

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Reformation, they're like a guardrail, if you will, just like perhaps a confession of faith in a creed, which might be a lot more detailed than just simply the five solos of the

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Reformation. But aren't they like a guardrail to prevent churches from going off into error?

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Not that they would be infallibly preventing us to do that, but it's a good thing to examine what you are doing, what solos, these declarations of things that each have alone attached to them.

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And going back to even our charismatic friends when it comes to Sola Scriptura, why on earth do you think that you need something else other than that which is

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God -breathed, that which has been already perfect for two millennia, and of course even longer when you consider the

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Old Testament much longer? Why would you need anything else? So true.

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I was thinking of a quote, I'm trying to find it in the book here, Dr. J .R.

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Packer, I'm reading this, in his book A Quest for Godliness, summarized the teaching of John Owen on this matter when he wrote, that if private revelations agree with Scripture, they are needless, and if they disagree, they are false.

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There's so much in that. If private revelations agree with Scripture, we don't need them, they're needless, and if they disagree, they are false.

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And I can't find any hole in that argument. And that was, again, a very weighty quote that alerted me to the fact of the value of Scripture, what it is when we're handling

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Scripture, it's of a completely different substance and nature and source than any other information we get on the planet.

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It is God -breathed. And nothing else is, there's nothing else apart from Scripture that we are told is

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God -breathed in that sense, and the Solas bring us back to the essentials of the

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Gospel, you're absolutely right, like a guardrail. To veer off in these matters is to go off the mountain.

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The guardrail, once we just discard it, we're off the mountain, we're falling, and that's why

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Martin Luther made that famous expression, justification by faith alone, which is one of those five

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Solas, Sola Fidei. Justification by faith alone is the article upon which the church stands or falls, and that's true of the church, any church we're a part of or know of, but it's also true of each one of us individually, to deny these things is to depart from or deny the very

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Gospel. Just in what you've said, the necessity versus the sufficiency of the

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Bible, of faith, of grace, of Christ, and even of the glory of God, that's why these

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Solas are remaining relevant in our day as they were just as much in the 16th century.

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Let me give you a quote in his book, R .C. Sproul's book, Essential Truths of the

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Christian Faith. He's explaining the difference, the distinction between necessary and sufficient causes.

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He writes this, a necessary condition is a condition that must be present for a desired result to happen.

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Without it, the result will not be forthcoming. For example, oxygen is a necessary condition for fire.

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However, the mere presence of oxygen is not enough to guarantee that a fire will occur.

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That is fortunate for us since the world would be in flames if oxygen automatically produced fire.

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Oxygen is therefore necessary for fire, but in itself is not sufficient for a fire to ignite.

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So when we're saying that the Bible is necessary, we're saying one thing.

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But when we're saying it's necessary and sufficient, we're saying something completely different.

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And the Bible speaks of not merely the necessity of grace, but as Dr. James White says so well, it speaks of the sufficiency of grace.

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And that's why the Reformers, basing their conclusions on what the Bible says, were affirming that grace actually saves.

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It's not just merely necessary for salvation, it's sufficient for salvation.

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And that's why these things are big deal issues. That's why they will remain so. The difference, the dividing line is now and then.

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The necessity of the Scripture versus the sufficiency of Scripture.

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The necessity of grace versus the sufficiency of grace. The necessity of Christ, oh we need

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Him, versus the sufficiency of Christ. Same with faith.

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Same with the glory of God. Do we give some glory to God? Little mixed in with ourselves, we give a pat on our back to ourselves.

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Or is it boasting only in the glory of God? The glory of God alone was the final solar of the

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Reformers in that sense. And each soul is important, but the first four really exist to preserve that last one, the glory of God.

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And we're declaring in Scripture that God's authority is in what

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He said, only in what He said, only in His inspired word. Only that can command us and bind our conscience.

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Absolutely. Sola fide, sola Christus, when we talk of faith alone,

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Christ alone, sola gratia, grace alone, they're all talking about God's glory in salvation.

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God and God alone, through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, He's the one who saves His people from sin and death.

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And that's why the soul has proclaimed the glory of God in salvation, in what

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He's revealed to us in the person and work of Christ. And to depart from that is to go blazing ahead, driving through the guardrail into the death that awaits us as we go around the mountain.

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The guardrails are in place. These solas are in place to say, don't go beyond this, or you go into territory where you are not protected.

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You have no salvation. To mix grace with something else means you don't get grace at all.

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Grace has to be grace in its pure form to be grace. And grace means a gift.

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It's a gift. So that's why these things are important. That's why I'm so stood up and wanted to have something in my hands that I can hand to people, whether I've met them before or whether they're new to the church, established in the church.

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I want everybody to know these things because I want people to know the central truths of the gospel.

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And that's what these solas give us. Now, we typically should clarify that, especially when we're talking about sola fide, there are

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Roman Catholics and Wesleyan holiness evangelicals who agree in opposition to us that this is a license for licentious living.

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It's a blueprint for licentious living. And they will say, and they will either purposely or unconsciously broad brush us with those who claim to be evangelicals who do have a false understanding of sola fide, faith alone.

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And they will believe that somebody can go forward at an altar call, recite a prayer uttered by the minister or evangelist, and that person, by doing that, is guaranteed eternal life and nothing that ever happens after that will change that reality, according to those evangelists.

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Now, this is a lie from the pit of hell, isn't it? I mean, first of all, nothing we do can save us, not even going forward and reciting a prayer.

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But aren't those who are truly transformed by Christ given new hearts? Aren't our hearts of stone removed and we are given hearts of flesh and with the

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Holy Spirit dwelling within us? So while we are not perfectly sinless on this earth, do we not have lives marked with repentance when we fall into sin?

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Our hearts are grieved to the point that we always will eventually repent, and our lives will be marked with following Him until we enter into eternity?

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You're absolutely right. I affirm everything you just said, and I'm thinking as you're speaking of Romans 3, 4, and 5, which outline justification by faith alone very clearly.

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And it's followed by chapter 6, which I encourage people to read because he raises a necessary objection, which he knows will be in the minds of anyone who's just heard him.

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Are you saying then that we can continue in sin so that grace may abound? He anticipates that very objection, which gives me the assurance

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I'm saying what Paul's been saying in Romans 3, 4, and 5. And his answer is not, well, no, not really.

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No, God forbid. How shall we who've died to sin live any longer in it?

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That's exactly the point you've made, and that is we've got a new nature now that wants to please

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Christ. And if there is no new desire to please Christ, it makes me wonder, though I'm not the final judge in the matter

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God is, but it makes me wonder whether there's been a true conversion because in a true conversion, God gives a new heart.

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Someone now wants what they didn't want before. They want to please Christ. Jesus said good trees bear good fruit.

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Yeah, exactly. And we're out of time, brother, and I know that your website is kingschurchaz .com, kingschurchaz .com

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to order the booklet, The Five Solas, Standing Together Alone. Go to solid -ground -books .com,

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solid -ground -books .com. Thank you so much, Pastor John. Please hang on the line for a moment.

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I hope you listened, especially all of you who sent in questions or comments. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater