July 4, 2018 Show with Maurice Roberts on “How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness & Spiritual Conversation?”

The Program’s Purpose and Opening Theme

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron. So one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour. And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions. Now, here's our host Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania. Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at iron sharpens iron radio .com. This is Chris Arns and your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy 4th of July.

And it is my honor today on July 4th 2018 to welcome for the very first time a guest that I have been wanting to interview for many years Morris Roberts, he is the former editor of the banner of truth magazine between 1988 and 2003.

He is the author of a number of books including the thought of God the Christians high-calling Great God of wonders. Can we know God and finding peace with God? Justification explained which are all banner of truth publications.

He was also the moderator for the Free Church of Scotland continuings General Assembly in 2007. He is a lecturer in Greek and New Testament at the Free Church seminary since 2002 and Today he's going to be addressing his new publication with Reformation heritage books How do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation?

And it's by honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to iron sharpens iron radio Morris Roberts.

Hello, Reverend Robert. A great a very great privilege to be here and to be able to speak to you. Thank you.

Well, I am so delighted that you are here and it's an honor and I know I've said that already. But I have truly been looking forward to this with great enthusiasm for quite a while. Before we go into your booklet that you have now published through Reformation heritage books How do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation?

What I typically do when I have a new or should I say first-time guest on iron sharpens iron radio? I have them give a summary of How they were raised what kind of religion they were raised in and so on and how?

Providentially our sovereign Lord drew you to yours to himself and saved you when you realized you actually needed a Savior from your sin and How you became a minister and so on. So let's start with Where and how you were raised In the and any kind of religion at all.

Conversion, Family Background, and Early Ministry

Right. Thank you. It's my pleasure and privilege to answer that question. I was born in 1938. That's just before the Second World War. We had a family of four and my father and mother Were not religious people, although my mother was devout.

Having said that she was not a Christian. My father had very little interest indeed in religion of any kind. Though he was an upright man and kept the moral law at least outwardly. My sister was six years younger.

So now I say my mother was devout in this sense that she was respectful toward religion she was anything but an atheist and She insisted that I should say my prayer. I think I did mostly as I say there was little or no church life when I was young.

One very interesting event. I might mention is this. During the wartime when the bombs were dropping all around there were in the Manchester area which was very much subject to attack by the Nazis at that date and my mother had me in her arms as a little baby and I was under a table so that if any shrapnel and it was a story.

She had me in her arms and she was terrified. My father I should say was in the factory nearby making airplanes. My mother as she was so terrified of what could be the consequence if a bomb fell on her didn't know.

But then she said and I never forgot this. She said God spoke now. She wasn't a Christian then but she had these words are my parents as I say loved one another and they were faithful to one another and they chastened me heartily when I was and doing anything wrong in my behavior or in my Language, and I appreciated that they loved me and I loved them.

I went to university in 1956. I went to study at King's College Latin and Greek and ancient history. And my wish was to become a secondary school teacher. Because I always loved and I did teach indeed for 14 to the ministry.

Now my conversion then was like this in my first term at university in 1956 a young fellow student from Wales. My friend he was studying the same subjects and his motive in doing so was oh my and as I have said was but this young man became very kind to me and very friendly and he influenced me and Urged me to attend meetings in the University Christian Union.

Now the Christian Union was part of the IVF as we call it. It was a good movement in December of 1950 I remember through the influence of the IVF and of the student I remember began in my soul. I Was a very worldly person was fond of things that thankfully not too much not too much God was restraining me at that time.

But I did come under conviction of sin that I was by no means in the right and I have to be honest and say I did not want it. I did not welcome it and For some time I went through a struggle in my life.

They said to God I will do anything to get peace. That's as I remember it. I got this piece and immediately I began to put things right in my life and Broke the Bible now moving into the following year 1957 and I said to my father when I went home from University I'm now a Christian.

He said it will pass off, but I knew very well. It would not pass off. I can't tell you how I knew but I did know I was absolutely Unreversible. I got assurance of salvation not immediately of 1957 I got assurance and I said to my father Do you mind father the Bible to you and my mother and my sister who was about six years younger?

My father was a nice man and courteous. Oh, no He said I don't mind if you read the Bible to us. So I did and To cut a long story short as time went on. I managed to get them to come to church and one-by-one Not all at once but as the years went by.

Converted.

Yes, thank God. First my mother was converted and my dear sister and then my father. I should say my sister married a close friend of mine Evangelical minister in England and the two of them spent many years.

If you don't mind, I won't mention which country my father was in his seven and went to hospital in Manchester. That's the big city near to where we were brought. I went with my wife and a little girl.

I should then was to the bedside and we stood beside the bed. My father was unable to so the bedside on his back. Are you a trusting in Christ and he nodded. He couldn't speak but he nodded. So I said father.

I'll ask you again Are you trusting in nothing but Christ as you leave this world and he nodded? Well father, I said it will understand. I never saw him after that. It worked hard all his life when I went to the hospital and he passed away and I took home.

What? Belonged to him. Dramas and a watch and things like that, but no, no, I'm wrong. He now had Christ and he now had heaven and he now had glory. So that was a praise. God now.

We must hear you as an Englishman. How did you get involved with the Free Church of Scotland? And I know that you actually were among the founders of the Free Church of Scotland continuing and Perhaps you could tell us about that as well.

I know that there's some sensitive details as to why that Denomination the latter denomination was founded. But how did you get involved first of all with the first with the first group? I mentioned the Free Church of Scotland.

Yes, I'll certainly tell you how that happened. I should perhaps begin by saying that my theology was very Arminian at first and It was only after a number of years. I began to be influenced by the teaching of dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones of London and His assistant.

I met in money as a young man and heard him preach. I'd never heard anything like it in my life. I had for a time be going to a church. But it and I had to leave it and go to a more. One of the big issues that came to me was this did I choose Christ or did he choose me.

And At first but the more I studied the best books and listened to the best preachers. I came to see who in his mercy chose me. That was a very big changing and transforming my theology of my practice, too.

Another text shall I say which greatly influenced my life. Some years after I had been converted I noticed this text in Ezekiel 11 verse 5. I Know the things that come into your mind. Every one of them now.

This was important because I have to admit my thought and as a young person had had some thoughts Which I was not proud of when I came to look back upon them. But I was shocked to discover. It never crossed my mind that God could see my thoughts and that was a sanctifying influences.

Which made me much more careful in future as to how now to move on from there. I became a Calvinist through Studying Calvin's Institutes that had a big effect upon me a number of excellent. But another day magazines at Hilton was called a blue banner faith colleague in the school.

It actually of course comes from the United States. But I had to get it from Northern Ireland where there was an agent who supplied that particular magazine. And I started to get it and as I read it and studied it my teaching my theology Began to be corrected and more and more I embraced the regulative principle and that was a new thing to us because in England the regular to print.

On one occasion I had a very important experience down to London to hear dr. Martin Lloyd-Jones preach at Westminster Chapel. Now in the afternoon, I got into conversation with somebody else staying in the lodging house transforming and I Discovered he was a free Church of Scotland minister.

He had come down all the way from Scotland to London to preach in a single and in conversation. I discovered he had come to embrace all the doctrines that I had come to embrace Metrical Psalms some mode of singing.

I said to him which church do you belong to? He said I belong to the free Church of Scotland and I come from the highlands of Scotland. I said well, that's the church. I want to belong to. I want to be a thoughtful in my mode of worship in 1962 I think it was that year.

I can't remember which. I Jumped on the train and went to and there in God's wonderful providence. I Met a policeman who was on duty in the center of the city are the offices of now he knew and pointed.

But they were shut because it was a Saturday. So I wandered around to an hour or so later. I came back to the same spot where I had met this policeman. And he was now coming off duty. He's finished for the day.

But he recognized me and in five minutes through the bed and he said to me I come from an island off the west coast of the highlands of Scotland Called the island of Lewis where my father was. He came into my mind one day to go to the island of Lewis and in 1965 the outstanding minister in storm 1964 His a banner of truth have published his diary in my edited on 1964.

I went all the way up to Lewis a very long way from where I I met Did my invitation for marriage and we've now been happily married for 52 years. Wow, congratulations. Thank you, sir dear mother. And father were McLeod as their surname.

Everybody's a Mac something up here. McLeod is a very very common name and my dear wife Sanders parents and family Were an exemplary Christian family and they showed me how to conduct family worship a lot from them.

My wife and I have had one child now herself a mother and Her name is Mary and she was converted. That really takes I must go on just to say one or two months a teacher for many years. Maybe 14 years and then I got the call in my soul.

Oh, I had to and in addition in my own time. I did the London BD Bachelor of Divinity and Managed to get that I was inducted in 1970 southwest of Scotland where many years before the great John Welsh had been a minister.

It's on welfare there now we had Several years of very over 20 years and seeing a number of people can I became a stronger? I was caught in the northeast of Scotland many miles away and There was there I believed myself which could not be one of a number of people who pressed the General Assembly of our church and I myself had to face and about a thousand people in the denomination along with other ministers and so The principles of the free Church of Scotland had from its inception in Sorry now that so many of those who were moved away from those principles will become.

Well, I am so delighted that you are on the program again, and I know I keep repeating myself about that. But. This is the first time I have had this lengthy a conversation with you because all the other times that I've met you in person I was mainly sitting in an audience being absolutely mesmerized.

By hearing you preach. I guess I shouldn't use the word audience perhaps. Congregation and in the pew is a better word. I was sitting in the in the amongst the congregation hearing you preach. At the most memorable time I can recall was at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square on Long Island, New York where my friend pastor Bill Shishko used to be.

Oh, yes, the pastor and he had invited you for a conference and I heard you there. I think I also heard you at Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, New Jersey if I'm not mistaken.

That's right. I did preach for our Martin. Yes. Yes and.

Perhaps even now that I'm thinking about it and you may have preached where I was a member at one time Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville where Mike Gadosz Was the pastor and I know that he? While working for Calvary Press at that time or should I say after he founded Calvary Press?

He had you Write some wonderful commendations for books that he brought back into print.

If it's possible that I did I remember the name well. But my memory doesn't tell me exactly whether I actually preach for him. It's quite possible. I'm afraid I can't confirm or deny that all right.

But but it is certain that you did write some wonderful endorsements for Calvary Press for the things that they brought back into print. And My privilege. Yes. Well, we are now discussing today the booklet Heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation or should I say how I develop how do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation.

And We're going to go to our first break right now before we go into this subject because I don't want to cut you off in mid-sentence. So if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. Chris Arnzen at gmail .com. And please give us your first name at least your city and state in your country of residence. If you live outside of the United States. And by the way, I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to read you a question That has already come in and then I'll have you answer it when we return we have a listener named John and Forgive me John if I'm mispronouncing the name of your city in New Mexico.

But it's either Chama or Chema Chama. I have no idea how to pronounce that but I'm assuming it's trauma. And John says I love the show. Here's my question is lack of enjoyment in spiritual conversation a possible or even clear sign of a lack of conversion.

In other words if a professed Christian loathes talk of Christ. Can I safely assume that person is by no means a Christian and we could have you answer that when we return from the break and If anybody else would like to join us on the air as I said, our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. God willing. We will be right back with more of Morris Roberts. And how do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual.

Conversation Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said.

Give yourself unto reading. The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted. He will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves that he has no brains of his own.

You need to read.

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Hi, I'm pastor Bill Shishko inviting you to tune in to a visit to the pastor's study every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m Eastern Time on WLIE radio www .wlie540am .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you and we invite you to visit the pastor's study by calling in with your questions.

Our time will be lively useful and I assure you never dull. Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to the pastor's study because everyone needs a pastor. Welcome back.

This is Chris Arnson. In fact, that was the voice of the man that Morris Roberts and I were just talking about Bill Shishko formerly pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York now Running and a parachurch organization called the Reformation Metro, New York ministry and where he is the The talk show host of a visit to the pastor's study and I hope that you listen to that show and call into it Every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on www .wlie540am .com anywhere in the world and.

We are back now with our discussion with Morris Roberts former editor of the Banner of Truth magazine and author and we are discussing how do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation and as you Most likely recall before the break Morris we had John from Chama, New Mexico.

Who asks is a lack of enjoyment in spiritual conversation a possible or even clear sign of lack of? Conversion. In other words if a professed Christian loathes talk of Christ Can I safely assume that person is by no means a Christian?

My answer is very definite and very clear. Anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet who does not rejoice in talking about the Lord Jesus Christ and the things of the Scripture is Deceiving himself born again, and we can never get too much of their answer to that.

No, I would say he is not a Christian.

And by the way, John if you give me your full mailing address in Chama, New Mexico We will mail you a free copy of the booklet. We are discussing How do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation by Morris Roberts?

And this is a publication of Reformation Heritage books founded by my good friend. Dr. Joel Beeky and. Thank you for being a first-time listener. John in fact since you are a first-time listener, you're also getting a free copy of the New American Standard Bible and we thank the publishers of the New American Standard Bible and also Reformation Heritage books for Providing us with these free copies and we also want to thank Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com for shipping out all of our winners in our audience their free books and Bibles and other things.

Why did you even before we get into the contents of the booklet. Why were you led to even write this booklet? What was that? What were the circumstances? Surrounding you or in your memory that made you come to the conclusion.

I've got to write down these thoughts of mine on how to develop heavenly mind and this is spiritual conversation, right?

Well, the honest answer is dr. Joel Beeky whom you named a little while ago Very kindly invited me on that very subject. It has been my privilege to be invited to preach for dr. Beeky over the years and to write a number of things with.

Namely the name of the happiness and the mysteries of God is another even subjects. Well, I think the latest one that Joel Beeky once asked me to write was called. What does it have a remindedness and spiritual?

Conversation so that is the background to my attempting to write that little book.

Well, I think it would be wise to start in the book in the booklet in the conversation. Where you start in the booklet? What is heavenly mind in this?

Heavenly Mindedness and the New Birth

Right, we can just give some of the thoughts that I had put down in the booklet. Three things I begin with. It turned the importance of heavenly mindedness in any person's life. It's first of all Those who are heavenly minded are aware of God's existence and of God's sovereignty.

That is to say it not only exists all events and nothing ever happens without his. Second thing I mention is that if we are to become heavenly minded we must make it our practice to remember All that cry his life and death and intercession of the right hand of God above.

And the third thing I mentioned is to try to remember God and it all God's. You know, the Bible, you know, some people.

Might think That when we are talking about this. Especially if they are not Christians themselves. That you're talking about Heavenly mindedness. You're talking about spiritual conversation. It sounds like you folks who are Christians really don't know how to enjoy life.

You don't know how to talk about anything else than your religion. You can't discuss The arts and music. And you can't discuss literature outside of Christian literature. And they think that we're basically killjoys and so on.

How how is the truth.

Contrasted with that. I would put it simply like this. And I do touch on this in a little book. Well, you might say the with and the other is much more interested in humanity and things like that. Heavenly mindedness arises from that wisdom which comes to a person when they've had the experience.

We're only interested in world of things and I was exactly the same myself. Innocent enough in themselves. When a person has had this experience called a new birth his life has changed his attitudes changed.

He now is concerned only with one form of wisdom, which is Heavenly wisdom. And heavenly wisdom means to live our life and conduct our thoughts and direct our world of God.

Now, of course, I'm assuming you mean by that answer That you're not saying and I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that you're not saying that a Christian can never discuss sports and art and music outside of the realm of Christianity or religion at all.

If someone might enjoy the great Renaissance painters and have a conversation about that they might discuss in In your part of the world cricket or football UK style football as opposed to American style.

But but the difference is that these things Don't consume our minds as Christians that we are not to have them as idols, even though many people tragically even after their rebirth Unfortunately still cling to some of these things as idols.

But as long as we do not idolize these things and have them dominate our Minds and our lives and our conversation aren't those things very appropriate.

What you say is excellent, and I fully endorse it and I put it like this. The perfect example in every respect is the one and only person who ever lived who never sinned. The only perfect was is more than a human being he's both God and man in two natures of one person.

But in his human nature, he never sinned and the interesting thing is as we read the four Gospels. But we have a very full record of we notice his concentration. Thing is think of those things that are above.

Now I'm not saying I'm not saying such things of that sort. But it's a matter of proportion and a matter of degree. And when a person is born again They're natural to seek those how we set our affection on the things that are above.

It's a matter of degree.

Practical Counsel for Growing in Heavenly Mindedness

Well, how would you suggest. That we who are Christians grow in heavenly mindedness. Obviously, there are some things that Believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace we know to be true. That there are some things that God himself alone Does in our minds and hearts?

But there are other things in the course of our sanctification that we actually participate in. And how would we what are the practical? Counsel and advice do you have for Christians that we can do to help us help ourselves grow in heavenly mind in us?

Thank you. That's an excellent question. I'm delighted to try to answer it. I would say first of all, we must have that experience. We are not Spiritual any one of us until we've had that experience. We may have church members.

We may Christ said until the man is born again. So that's the first one. The next thing I would say is a little bit more technical the soul of every human being. I'm trying to be a bit detail. Mind will emotions memory and conscience.

Every human being has those now when the person's born again. And he would never talk about our desire is not live the kind of life that God approves of. But when we are born again Our attitude to God is radically changed and all these faculties dimension of attitude towards God the mind now wants Doctrine we want to know how to please God and the emotions peace in our heart.

Emily wants to be I heard and the conscience After Christ now becomes that no peace when a person has had the experience of being born again. All the faculties of the soul now are directed towards the main thing.

Which is to honor and glorify God. Secondary things. All right, we don't say they're sinful. That's my answer.

Praise God. We have a listener in White Plains, New York. We have RJ in White Plains, New York who says do you have any suggestions on how to strike up a gospel-centered? Conversation with a complete stranger while you're in a waiting room whether it be in a doctor's office or in a train or bus Station or an airport?

I know that this different circumstances will alter the different ways We bring up conversation but I find myself very often at a loss as To how to bring up things of God without looking like a stark raving lunatic.

I will give you my opinion. I'm far from thinking it's the best advice or the best answer that can be given. I think a lot depends first of all in the waiting room and The one we're trying to talk to it a stranger.

We're trying to talk to him. Where do you come from? And then I move on to the question, you know, dear friend, but for death and life after death. What do you think about that? He gives me his opinion about that.

And of course as you can see I then come to say well. You know, there's only one real answer and that is we need to have our sins forgiven by the blood of Christ. It depends on how we get on with the first as to how we get on with the next bit.

But I would venture to go that way. That's my general approach and we should.

Expect shouldn't we that most of the time. Not all of the time, but we should at least go into a conversation. Expecting that if someone is not a Christian. They will most likely think that we are somewhat crazy for bringing up Religion or God or the gospel in a serious way just because of the fact that the natural man finds these things weird and offensive.

We must expect that but we mustn't be put off by that right. And we must keep on saying Well, you you think I'm foolish and stupid, but my dear isn't it true? My friend life is so short I mean you could be a millionaire, but you can't take a penny with you.

Can you and do you realize what's going to happen after death and the man says to me? I don't believe anything will happen after death and we're dead. We're gone after that nothing to talk about after that.

You have to face God and we have to give an answer for the we have to press these points on people.

Yes, and we are not to be so worried about What these folks think of us? That we deny Christ by remaining silent. I mean our feelings and Thoughts about what others think of us should pale into insignificance when it comes to Our desire and our joy to proclaim Christ publicly even no matter what the kind of consequences may occur from it.

I.

Would say your time is when we mustn't. I was once in America waiting for a play beside me and I could see it once. Well, how do you understand Isaiah 53? He was wounded for our transgressions. I said, isn't that Jesus Christ?

The answer the dear man gave was no, I don't know but it's not Jesus Christ. Well, I love the Jews and I pray for them all the time, but I feel sorry that they don't look at them. Amen.

I don't know if you've ever read the booklet that Chapel Library.

Publishes, are you familiar with Chapel Library? Yes, I get. Their literature comes through the post regularly. Yes.

Well.

You reminded me of a booklet that they published years ago that was originally written in the 1800s. By a surgeon a Civil War surgeon. By the last name of Ross Foley and I may be mispronouncing it, but he was a Jewish Surgeon from New York during the Civil War and he operated on a drummer boy.

I believe the boy was 16 years old Charlie Kelson and he was Wounded and while he was dying, he was just constantly talking to his surgeon about Christ and that little boy's constant Proclamation of the Lord eventually was used by God himself to pierce.

Dr Ross Foley's heart and he became a Christian himself and wrote that booklet the little drummer boy.

Yes, I'm aware of that lovely story. I'm glad to be reminded of it. I'd almost forgotten it. But yes, I do know it. It's a wonderful story and I'd love to hear the Jews coming to Christ.

Amen. And by the way, that story is not to be confused with the song the little drummer boy. And one more quick story that goes along with something that you were saying is years ago when my late wife Asked me to gather some friends from church to help a friend of hers move furniture out of her apartment.

Oh.

One of the gentlemen that came with me to help this woman move and this woman was not a believer she was a nominal Catholic lady and The the very first thing that my friend Bill who is now in hat now in heaven with the Lord the very first thing He said to this woman was Do you know where you will spend eternity if you die tonight?

I mean this is before he said hello or anything and I actually was very upset with Bill because I thought that he inappropriately Frightened to this woman and this woman was frightened. She pulled me aside thought he was thought he was very weird and She she was very upset.

I Lost contact with that woman and about 15 years later. I bumped into her Somewhere I believe in a restaurant and she said that she was a born-again Christian. And I said, how did this happen? Tell me the story because when I met you and the conversations that we had I knew that you were not a Christian then and she Said we'll remember that guy that was helping me With the furniture who asked me if I would go to heaven or hell where I would spend eternity if I died.

Well that that statement haunted me Every night when I put my head on my pillow and finally the Lord used that to drive me to my knees and to cry out. So even things like that that we think are foolish The Lord will bless his faithful servants, even when they fumble and mumble and bumble and do things that might not be exactly Appropriate or in the manner, which way they give them or say them may be not appropriate.

Big lesson that is is worth attempting. It doesn't think we shouldn't keep our mouth shut when we can say something to help people.

Amen. Oh, by the way, RJ you have also won a free copy of how do I develop heavenly mind? In this and spiritual conversation. So please give us your full address your full mailing address in White Plains, New York.