July 4, 2018 Show with Maurice Roberts on “How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness & Spiritual Conversation?”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy 4th of July, and it is my honor today on July 4th, 2018 to welcome for the very first time a guest that I have been wanting to interview for many years,

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Morris Roberts. He is the former editor of the Banner of Truth magazine between 1988 and 2003.

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He is the author of a number of including The Thought of God, The Christian's High Calling, Great God of Wonders, Can We Know God, and Finding Peace with God, Justification Explained, which are all

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Banner of Truth publications. He was also the moderator for the Free Church of Scotland Continuings General Assembly in 2007.

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He is a lecturer in Greek and New Testament at the Free Church Seminary since 2002, and today he's going to be addressing his new publication with Reformation Heritage Books, How Do I Develop Heavenly -Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Morris Roberts.

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Hello, Reverend Roberts. A very great privilege to be here and to be able to speak to you. Thank you.

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Well, I am so delighted that you are here, and it's an honor, and I know I've said that already, but I have truly been looking forward to this with great enthusiasm for quite a while.

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Before we go into your booklet that you have now published through Reformation Heritage Books, How Do I Develop Heavenly -Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation, what

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I typically do when I have a new, or should I say first -time guest on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I have them give a summary of how they were raised, what kind of religion they were raised in, and so on, and how providentially our

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Sovereign Lord drew you to Himself and saved you when you realized you actually needed a

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Savior from your sin, and how you became a minister, and so on. So let's start with where and how you were raised in any kind of religion at all.

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Right, thank you. It's my pleasure and privilege to answer that question. I was born in 1938.

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That's just before the Second World War. We had a family of four eventually, and my father and mother were not religious people, although my mother was devout.

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Having said that, she was not a Christian then. My father had very little interest indeed in religion of any kind, though he was an upright man and kept the moral law, at least outwardly.

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My sister was six years younger, so she was a little bit into the war before I had her.

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Now, I say my mother was devout in this sense that she was respectful toward religion.

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She was anything but an atheist, and she insisted that I should say my prayers every evening, either in bed or before I got into bed, and I think

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I did mostly pray as a young child every night when I was in bed,

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I think it would be. As I say, there was little or no church life when

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I was young. One very interesting event I might mention is this. During the wartime, when the bombs were dropping all around us in England, we were in the

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Manchester area, which was very much subject to attack by the Nazis at that date, and my mother had me in her arms as a little baby, and I was under a table so that if any shrapnel fell on the ceiling, it wouldn't hit her, but would hit the table first, and here was the story.

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She had me in her arms, as she told me later, and she was terrified. My father,

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I should say, was in the factory nearby making airplanes for self -defense, well, as a country.

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My mother, as she was so terrified of what could be the consequences if a bomb fell on us, she just didn't know how to control her emotions, but then she said, and I never forgot this, she said,

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God spoke to her with these words, be still and know that I am

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God. Now, she wasn't a Christian then, but it was a very generous providence of God that before her conversion, because she was converted after me, she had these words as a comfort to her.

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Now, my parents, as I say, loved one another, and they were faithful to one another, and they chastened me heartily when

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I was doing anything wrong in my behavior or in my language, and I appreciated that.

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They loved me, and I loved them. Now, when was I converted?

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Well, it was like this. I went to university when

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I was 18 years of age. The year was 1956.

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I went to study at King's College, Durham University in the northeast of England at the age of 18.

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I studied Latin and Greek and ancient history, and my wish was to become a secondary school teacher because I always loved the thought of teaching, and I did teach indeed for 14 years before I entered the ministry.

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Now, my conversion then was like this. In my first term at university in 1956, a young fellow student from Wales, who was a

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Christian, became my friend. He was studying the same subject, and his motive in doing so was to prepare for the

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Christian ministry. Mine, as I have said, was for the teaching profession, but this young man became very kind to me and very friendly, and he influenced me and urged me to attend meetings in the university

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Christian union. Now, the Christian union was part of the inter -varsity fellowship movement,

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IVF as we call it. It was a good movement, evangelical Bible believing. In December of 1956,

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I remember, through the influence of the IVF and of this student,

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I remember convictions began in my soul. I was a very worldly person insofar as I was fond of things that all worldly people love.

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A little bit of drink, thankfully not too much. A little bit of dancing, thankfully not too much.

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God was restraining me at that time, but I did come under conviction of sin that I was by no means in a right relationship with God.

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I have to be honest and say I resisted this influence of God's Holy Spirit upon me.

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I did not want it. I did not welcome it, and for some time I went through a struggle in my life, and eventually

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God brought me to the point in which I was broken down, and I said to God, I will do anything to get peace.

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That's as I remember it. I got this peace, and immediately I began to put things right in my life.

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I broke off the dancing. I broke off the drinking. I broke off unhealthy language and broke off some bad friendships.

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The Bible now became all important to me. Now we're talking about moving into the following year, 1957, and I said to my father when

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I went home from university, um, father I'm now a Christian. Oh, he said it'll pass off.

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We all go through these phases in life, but I knew very well it would not pass off.

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I can't tell you how I knew, but I did know. I was absolutely certain that something had happened to me which was unreversible.

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I got assurance of salvation, not immediately. It was some months before I got assurance.

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I would think round about March of 1957 I got assurance, and I said to my father, do you mind father if while I'm at home from university

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I read the Bible to you and my mother and my sister who was about six years younger?

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My father was a nice man and courteous. Oh no, he said, I don't mind if you read the Bible to us, so I did, and to cut a long story short, as time went on I managed to get them to come to church, and one by one they were converted, not all at once, but as the years went by.

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Praise God. Yes, thank God. First my mother was converted, then my dear sister was converted, and then eventually later in life my father.

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I should say my sister married a close friend of mine who was an evangelical minister in England, and the two of them spent many years in a

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Middle Eastern country as missionaries. If you don't mind I won't mention which country it was, but they were in the

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Middle Eastern country for several years, did a very good job there spreading the gospel. So I had the great joy of seeing all my family converted, and if I would be allowed to add this,

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I would say my father was in his 70s when he took seriously ill, and went to hospital in Manchester, that's the big city near to where we were brought up, and I went with my wife and a little girl, as her name was, to the bedside, and we stood beside the bed.

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My father was unable to speak, but he could hear and understand. So at the bedside, as I looked down upon him, he lying flat on his back,

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I said, Father, are you trusting in Christ as you leave this world? And he nodded.

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He couldn't speak, but he nodded. So I said, Father, I'll ask you again, are you trusting in nothing but Christ as you leave this world?

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And he nodded. Well, Father, I said it won't be long before you and I are together in heaven above.

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And the tears came into his eyes, as you can well understand. I never saw him after that.

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He'd worked hard all his life, and a few days later, when I went to the hospital, and he passed away, and I took home what belonged to him.

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It was just a tiny few things, pajamas, and a coat, and a watch, and things like that, and toothpaste.

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That's all he had after a whole lifetime of hard work. But no, no,

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I'm wrong. He now had Christ, and he now had heaven, and he now had glory. So that was my conversion.

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Oh, praise God. Now we must hear you as an Englishman. How did you get involved with the

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Free Church of Scotland? And I know that you actually were among the founders of the Free Church of Scotland continuing, and perhaps you could tell us about that as well.

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I know that there's some sensitive details as to why that denomination, the latter denomination, was founded.

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But how did you get involved, first of all, with the first group I mentioned, the Free Church of Scotland?

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Yes, I'll certainly tell you how that happened. I should perhaps begin by saying that my theology was very

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Arminian at first, and it was only after a number of years

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I began to be influenced by the teaching of Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones of London and his assistant, the

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Reverend Ian Murray of the Banner of Truth. I met Ian Murray as a young man and heard him preach, and I'd never heard anything like it in my life.

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He was so, so very, very helpful and good. I had for a time been going to a church, but it was a pretty liberal church, and I had to leave it and go to a more conservative church.

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So I've had a lot of learning to do. One of the big issues that came to me was this.

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Did I choose Christ, or did he choose me? And at first I believed it was

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I that chose Christ, but the more I studied the best books and listened to the best preachers,

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I came to see it was Christ who, in his mercy, chose me. That was a very big, big experience, changing and transforming my theology and my practice, too.

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Another text, shall I say, which greatly influenced my life, this might be surprising to other people, but it was some years after I had been converted,

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I noticed this text in Ezekiel 11, verse 5. I know the things that come into your mind, every one of them,

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Ezekiel 11. Now, this is important because I have to admit my thoughts have been far from perfect, and as a young person

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I had some thoughts which I was not proud of when I came to look back upon them, but I was shocked to discover it never crossed my mind that God could see my thoughts, and that was a sanctifying influence, which made me much more careful in the future as to how.

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Now, to move on from there, I became a Calvinist through studying

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Calvin's Institutes. That had a big effect upon me. A number of excellent Banner of Truth books.

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Another of the magazines that helped me was called The Blue Banner of Faith and Life. I was told about this by a colleague in the school where I was teaching.

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It actually, of course, comes from the United States, but I had to get it from Northern Ireland, where there was an agent who supplied that particular magazine.

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I started to get it, and as I read it and studied it, my teaching and my theology began to be corrected, and more and more

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I embraced the regulative principle. That was a new thing to us, because in England the regulative principle is not so very well known as it is in Scotland and parts of America too.

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So, on one occasion I had a very important experience. I went down to London to hear

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Dr. Martin Lloyd -Jones preach at Westminster Chapel. Now, in the afternoon, as I was staying in a lodging house,

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I got into conversation with somebody else staying in the lodging house, and we had a conversation which was life transforming, and I discovered he was a free

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Church of Scotland minister. He had come down all the way from Scotland to London to preach in a single free

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Church of Scotland congregation in central London, and in conversation I discovered he had come to embrace all the doctrines that I had come to embrace, and this included metrical psalms and some mode of singing.

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So, I said to him, which church do you belong to? He said,

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I belong to the free Church of Scotland, and I come from the Highlands of Scotland. So, I said, well, that's the church

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I want to belong to. I want to be a thorough Calvinist, and I want to have the regulative principle in my mode of worship.

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So, in 1962, I think it was that year, 62 or 63,

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I can't remember which, I jumped on the train and went to Edinburgh, the capital city of Scotland, and there, in God's wonderful providence,

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I met a policeman who was on duty in the centre of the city, and I asked him where are the offices of the free

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Church of Scotland? Now, he knew and pointed in the right direction, but they were shut because it was a

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Saturday. So, I wandered around town, I bought a few books, and then a few, an hour or so later,

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I came back to the same spot where I had met this policeman, and he was now coming off duty.

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He'd finished for the day, but he recognized me, and in five minutes, we were the best of friends, talking and talking about the things of God, because he was a fine

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Christian himself, and he said to me, I come from an island off the west coast of the Highlands of Scotland called the

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Island of Lewis. I don't think I'd heard of it before. Well, he said, the churches up there are excellent, and that's where my father was a minister.

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So, as the years went by, it came into my mind one day to go to the Island of Lewis, and in 1965, the outstanding minister in Stornoway passed away.

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Sorry, 1964, I should say. 1964. His name was Kenneth Macrae.

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The Banner of Truth have published his diary. Ian Murray edited and published a diary of Kenneth Macrae.

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So, in 1964, I went all the way up to Lewis, a very long way from where I lived, and there, you can guess what happened.

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I met a young lady, and I was extremely blessed in that she accepted my invitation for marriage, and we've now been happily married for 52 years.

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Wow, congratulations. Thank you, sir. Her dear mother and father, well,

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Macleod is her surname. Everybody's a Mac -something up here. Macleod is a very, very common name, and my dear wife

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Sandra's parents and family were an exemplary Christian family, and they showed me how to conduct family worship and the way in which to conduct my life.

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I learned a tremendous lot from them. My wife and I have had one child now herself, a mother, grown up at the age of 50, and her name is

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Mary, and she was converted early in life at about the age of eight.

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She was converted to faith in Christ. So, that really takes it up to date and how I came to be in Lewis.

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However, I must go on just to say one or two more things to explain part of what you're asking for.

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I was a teacher for many years, maybe 14 years, and then I got the call in my soul to preach the gospel.

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So, I had to train in the Free Church of Scotland College in Edinburgh, and in addition, in my own time,

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I did a London BD, Bachelor of Divinity, and managed to get that. I was inducted in 1974 to a small free church congregation in a town called

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Ayre, A -Y -R, in the southwest of Scotland, where many years before the great

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John Welsh had been a minister, a very famous reformed man of the 17th century,

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John Welsh of Ayre. Now, we had several years of very happy experience in the

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Ayre Free Church of Scotland, but after being there for 20 years and seeing a number of people converted and the church grew and became stronger,

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I was called to go to a congregation in Inverness in the northeast of Scotland, many miles away.

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And I was there for maybe four years when certain difficulties began to be felt in the

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Free Church of Scotland, and these concerned issues which

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I believed myself needed to be looked into, issues which could not be ignored or neglected.

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So, I was one of a number of people who pressed the General Assembly of our church to look into these issues, and I have to say, sadly, there was not a willingness to look into these matters.

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So, I myself had to face being put out of the ministry of the

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Free Church of Scotland, and about a thousand people in the denomination believed that I had taken a wise decision, along with other ministers, and so we formed the

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Free Church of Scotland continuing. It's a rather long -winded word, but we have to use that expression because we believe, and we are sure indeed, that we are continuing the principles that the

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Free Church of Scotland had from its inception in 1843. And we're sorry now that so many of those who were

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Free Church of Scotland have moved away from those principles and become, I have to say, a good deal more liberal in their attitudes.

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So, that really is our story. Well, I am so delighted that you are on the program again, and I know

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I keep repeating myself about that, but this is the first time I have had this lengthy a conversation with you because all the other times that I've met you in person,

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I was mainly sitting in an audience being absolutely mesmerized by hearing you preach.

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I guess I shouldn't use the word audience, perhaps congregation in the pew is a better word.

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I was sitting amongst the congregation hearing you preach at the most memorable time

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I can recall was at the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square on Long Island, New York, where my friend,

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Pastor Bill Shishko, used to be the pastor, and he had invited you for a conference, and I heard you there.

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I think I also heard you at Trinity Baptist Church of Montville, New Jersey, if I'm not mistaken. That's right,

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I did preach for Al Martin, yes. Yes, and perhaps even, now that I'm thinking about it, you may have preached where I was a member at one time,

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Calvary Baptist Church of Amityville, where Mike Gaydosh was the pastor, and I know that he, while working for Calvary Press at that time, or should

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I say after he founded Calvary Press, he had you write some wonderful commendations for books that he brought back into print.

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It's possible that I did. I remember the name well, but my memory doesn't tell me exactly whether I actually preached for him.

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It's quite possible, but I'm afraid I can't confirm or deny that. All right, but it is certain that you did write some wonderful endorsements for Calvary Press for things that they brought back into print.

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My privilege. Yes. Well, we are now discussing today the booklet,

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Heavenly Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation, or should I say, How I Develop, How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation, and we're going to go to our first break right now before we go into this subject, because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence.

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So if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

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chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com, and please give us your first name, at least your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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United States. And by the way, I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to read you a question that has already come in, and then

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I'll have you answer it when we return. We have a listener named John, and forgive me,

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John, if I'm mispronouncing the name of your city in New Mexico, but it's either Chama or Chama, C -H -A -M -A.

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I have no idea how to pronounce that, but I'm assuming it's Chama. And John says, I love the show.

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Here's my question. Is lack of enjoyment in spiritual conversation a possible or even clear sign of a lack of conversion?

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In other words, if a professed Christian loathes talk of Christ, can

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I safely assume that person is by no means a Christian?

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And we could have you answer that when we return from the break, and if anybody else would like to join us on the air, as I said, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with more of Morris Roberts and how do

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I develop heavenly -mindedness and spiritual conversation. Charles Haddon Spurgeon once said, give yourself unto reading.

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The man who never reads will never be read. He who never quotes will never be quoted.

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He who will not use the thoughts of other men's brains proves he has no brains of his own.

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You need to read. Solid Ground Christian Books is a publisher and book distributor who takes these words of the

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Prince of Preachers to heart. The mission of Solid Ground Christian Books is to bring back treasures of the past to minister to Christians in the present and future, and to publish new titles that address burning issues in the church and the world.

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Since its beginning in 2001, Solid Ground has been committed to publish God -centered, Christ -exalting books for all ages.

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We invite you to go treasure hunting at solid -ground -books .com. That's solid -ground -books .com

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and see what priceless literary gems from the past to present you can unearth from Solid Ground.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. Iron Sharpens Iron Radio is sponsored by Harvey Cedars, a year -round

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Bible conference and retreat center nestled on the Jersey Shore. Harvey Cedars offers a wide range of accommodations to suit groups up to 400.

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Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to A Visit to the Pastors Study every

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Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m. Eastern Time on WLIE Radio, www .wlie540am

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.com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit

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The Pastors Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, and I assure you, never dull.

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Join us this Saturday at 12 noon Eastern Time for a visit to The Pastors Study, because everyone needs a pastor.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. In fact, that was the voice of the man that Morris Roberts and I were just talking about,

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Bill Shishko, formerly pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York, now running a parachurch organization called the

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Reformation Metro New York Ministry, and where he is the talk show host of A Visit to the

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Pastors Study, and I hope that you listen to that show and call into it every Saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m.

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Eastern Time on wlie540am .com, anywhere in the world.

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And we are back now with our discussion with Morris Roberts, former editor of the

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Banner of Truth magazine and author, and we are discussing how do I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation, and as you most likely recall before the break,

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Morris, we had John from Chama, New Mexico, who asks, is a lack of enjoyment in spiritual conversation a possible or even clear sign of lack of conversion?

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In other words, if a professed Christian loathes talk of Christ, can

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I safely assume that person is by no means a Christian? My answer is very definite and very clear.

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Anyone who claims to be a Christian and yet who does not rejoice in talking about the

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Lord Jesus Christ and the things of the scripture is deceiving himself, because those who are born again love the things of God, and we can never get too much of the things of God.

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So I give a very clear answer to that. No, I would say he is not a Christian. And by the way,

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John, if you give me your full mailing address in Chama, New Mexico, we will mail you a free copy of the booklet we are discussing,

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How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation by Morris Roberts, and this is a publication of Reformation Heritage Books founded by my good friend

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Dr. Joel Beeky. And thank you for being a first -time listener, John.

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In fact, since you are a first -time listener, you're also getting a free copy of the New American Standard Bible, and we thank the publishers of the

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New American Standard Bible and also Reformation Heritage Books for providing us with these free copies, and we also want to thank

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Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVVBS .com, for shipping out all of our winners in our audience their free books and Bibles and other things.

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Why did you, even before we get into the contents of the booklet, why were you led to even write this booklet?

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What were the circumstances surrounding you or in your memory that made you come to the conclusion?

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I've got to write down these thoughts of mine on how to develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation.

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Right. Well, the honest answer is that Dr. Joel Beeky, whom you named a little while ago, very kindly invited me to write a little booklet on that very subject.

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It has been my privilege to be invited to preach for Dr. Beeky over the years and to write a number of things which he has kindly published, namely the name of the happiness of heaven is one, union and communion with Christ is another, and the mysteries of God is another.

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And I quote these titles because it indicates that I was given subjects which were of interest to those of the concern for experimental theology.

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I think the latest one that Joel Beeky once asked me to write was called, what does it mean to love

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God? So clearly he had the impression that I might be able to say something profitable on the subject of heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation.

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So that is background to my attempting to write that little book. Well, I think it would be wise to start in the booklet, in the conversation, where you start in the booklet.

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What is heavenly mindedness? Right. Well, if I can just give some of the thoughts that I had put down in the booklet, three things

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I begin with, which indicate the importance of heavenly mindedness in any person's life.

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It's first of all, those who are heavenly minded are aware of God's existence and of God's sovereignty.

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That is to say, he not only exists, but he is in control of all events that occur in life and nothing ever happens without his control of them.

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The second thing I mention is that if we are to become heavenly minded, we must make it our practice to remember all that Christ, the son of God, has done for us by his life and death and intercession of the right hand of God above.

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And the third thing I mention is we are daily to try to remember God's dealings with us in this life.

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And that all God's dealings with us in this life require of us that we study the

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Bible and apply the teaching of the Bible to our life and conduct all as long as we live.

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You know, some people might think that when we are talking about this, especially if they are not

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Christians themselves, that you're talking about heavenly mindedness, you're talking about spiritual conversation.

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It sounds like you folks who are Christians really don't know how to enjoy life. You don't know how to talk about anything else than your religion.

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You can't discuss the arts and music and you can't discuss literature outside of Christian literature.

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And they think that we're basically killjoys and so on. How is the truth contrasted with that?

35:36

Good question. I would put it simply like this. And I do touch on this in a little booklet

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I wrote that you've referred to. There are two forms of wisdom in existence.

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One is biblical wisdom, or you might say the wisdom of God, or heavenly wisdom.

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And the other is worldly wisdom. Now, worldly wisdom is interested not only in religion, but in much more instances in other things like culture and art and humanity and philosophy and the way of original thought and things like that.

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But true heavenly mindedness arises from that wisdom which comes to a person when they've had the experience which the

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Bible calls the new birth. Before we have had this experience of being converted through the new birth, which is

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Christ's expression in John chapter 3, then we're only interested in worldly things. And I was exactly the same myself.

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Kicking a football, playing cricket, worldly singing, worldly pleasures, worldly pastimes, some of which were perhaps innocent enough in themselves, but some of which were far from innocent.

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But when a person has had this experience called a new birth, his life has changed, his attitudes change.

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He now is concerned only with one form of wisdom, which is heavenly wisdom. And heavenly wisdom means to live our life and conduct our thoughts and direct our behavior along the line which the

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Bible, as the word of God, teaches us and tells us to do. That's my answer to your question.

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Now, of course, I'm assuming you mean by that answer that you're not saying, and I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that you're not saying that a

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Christian can never discuss sports and art and music outside of the realm of Christianity or religion at all.

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Someone might enjoy the great Renaissance painters and have a conversation about that.

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They might discuss, in your part of the world, cricket or football,

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UK -style football as opposed to American style. But the difference is that these things don't consume our minds as we are not to have them as idols, even though many people, tragically, even after their rebirth, unfortunately still cling to some of these things as idols.

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But as long as we do not idolize these things and have them dominate our minds and our lives and our conversation, aren't those things very appropriate?

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What you say is excellent, and I fully endorse it. And I put it like this. The perfect example in every respect is the person of the

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Lord Jesus Christ himself, being the eternal Son of God. Christ is the one and only person who ever lived who never sinned against God in thought, word, or deed.

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The only perfect human being, although, of course, he's more than a human being. He's both God and man in two natures in one person.

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But in his human nature, he never sinned. And the interesting thing is, as we read the four Gospels, where we have a very full record of our

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Lord's life and behavior, we notice his concentration all the time is upon directing his hearers, his disciples, his listeners, to think of those things that are above.

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Now, I'm not saying that it's a sin to have a game of football. I'm not saying it's a sin to be interested in art and things of that sort.

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But it's a matter of proportion and a matter of degree. And when a person is born again, their natural desire is, above everything else, to seek those things that are above.

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That's the way the Bible puts it. If we are born again, we seek those things that are above. We set our affection on the things that are above, more than on earthly things.

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It's a matter of degree. I would put it like that. Well, how would you suggest that we who are

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Christians grow in heavenly mindedness? Obviously, there are some things that believers in the doctrines of sovereign grace, we know to be true that there are some things that God himself alone does in our minds and hearts.

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But there are other things in the course of our sanctification that we actually participate in. What other practical counsel and advice do you have for Christians that we can do to help ourselves grow in heavenly mindedness?

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Thank you. That's an excellent question. I'm delighted to try to answer it. I would say, first of all, we must have that experience which we referred to earlier as the new birth.

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We are not spiritual, any one of us, until we've had that experience. We may have theological training.

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We may be church members. We may be baptized. We may have had a theological education.

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But we are not spiritual until we have had that life transforming experience which we call the new birth.

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Christ said, until a man is born again, he cannot see or understand the things of God. So that's the first one.

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The next thing I would say is a little bit more technical. The soul of every human being consists of five faculties.

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I'm trying to be a bit detailed here. I hope not too detailed. These are mind, will, emotions, memory, and conscience.

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Every human being has those five faculties. They belong to every human being's soul.

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Now, when the person is born again, these five faculties are all changed.

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Before we are born again, we are not interested in God. Indeed, we never talk about God if we can avoid it.

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If we are not born again, our desire is to hide away from God because we have a sense of guilt in our consciousness that we've not lived the kind of life that God approves of.

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But when we are born again, our attitude to God is radically changed. All these faculties of the soul take a new dimension of attitude towards God.

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The mind now wants doctrine. We want to know theology. We want to understand what does the

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Bible teach. The will says, I want now to please God. I want to live to give

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God the glory. The emotions begin to feel his love and peace in our heart.

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We have a sense of forgiveness, and we want to thank God for all that Christ has done for us. The memory wants to be filled with biblical instruction.

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We learn the Bible off by heart. The conscience, after coming to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, now begins to know peace, a peace that the world cannot give and which the world cannot take away.

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So I'd say when a person has had the experience of being born again, all the faculties of the soul now are directed towards the main thing, which is to honor and glorify

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God. Secondary things, all right. We don't say they're sinful, but they only have a very secondary place.

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That's my answer. Praise God. We have a listener in White Plains, New York.

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We have RJ in White Plains, New York, who says, Do you have any suggestions on how to strike up a gospel -centered conversation with a complete stranger while you're in a waiting room, whether it be in a doctor's office or in a train or bus station or an airport?

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I know that the different circumstances will alter the different ways we bring up conversation, but I find myself very often at a loss as to how to bring up things of God without looking like a stark, raving lunatic.

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Well, I suppose we're all sympathetic to that. I will give you my opinion. I'm far from thinking it's the best advice or the best answer that can be given.

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I think a lot depends, first of all, on the attitude of the person that's in the waiting room and the one we're trying to talk to, the stranger we're trying to talk to.

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My own approach tends to be, Where do you come from?

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What's your line of work? Try to get them to talk a little bit about themselves. Then I move on to the question,

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One of the biggest issues, dear friend, that we need to remember is our life is so short. Forgive me this, dear friend, but may

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I say to you, we need to prepare for death and life after death.

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What do you think about that? He gives me his opinion about that, and of course, as you can see, I then come to say,

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Well, you know, there's only one real answer, and that is we need to have ourselves forgiven by the blood of Christ.

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It depends on how we get on with the first bit of that conversation as to how we get on with the next bit, but I would venture to go that way.

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That's my general approach. And we should expect, shouldn't we, that most of the time, not all of the time, but we should at least go into a conversation expecting that if someone is not a

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Christian, they will most likely think that we are somewhat crazy for bringing up religion or God or the gospel in a serious way just because of the fact that the natural man finds these things weird and offensive.

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Absolutely right. We must expect that, but we mustn't be put off by that, and we must keep on saying,

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Well, you think I'm foolish and stupid, but my dear friend, isn't it true, my friend, life is so short.

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I mean, you could be a millionaire, but you can't take a penny with you, can you? And do you realize what's going to happen after death?

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And the man says to me, I don't believe anything will happen after death, and we're dead, we're gone, forever, there's nothing left after that, nothing to talk about after that.

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We have to say, Yes, the Bible makes it clear after death, we do have to praise God, and we have to give an answer for the way we've lived our lives.

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So we have to press these points on people as far as we can. Yes, and we are not to be so worried about what these folks think of us, that we deny

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Christ by remaining silent. I mean, our feelings and our thoughts about what others think of us should pale into insignificance when it comes to our desire and our joy to proclaim

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Christ publicly, even no matter what the kind of consequences may occur from it. I would say yes to that.

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Yes, we have to risk it, that's true. There are times when we mustn't throw pearls before swine, but we must do our very best to get some gospel knowledge into the people, when we have the opportunity for doing it.

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I was once in America waiting for a plane in an airport, and one or two Jewish gentlemen came and sat beside me, and I could see at once where they were in their religion.

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So I said to one of them, How do you understand Isaiah 53?

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He was wounded for our transgressions. I said, Isn't that Jesus Christ? The answer the dear man gave was no.

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Who is it then? I said, I don't know, but it's not Jesus Christ. Well, I love the

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Jews, and I pray for them all the time, but I feel sorry that they don't look at that chapter, because it's very clear that it's

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Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is prophesied out there. Amen.

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I don't know if you've ever read the booklet that Chapel Library publishes.

47:25

Are you familiar with Chapel Library? Yes, I get their literature coming through the Post regularly, yes. Well, you reminded me of a booklet that they published years ago that was originally written in the 1800s by a surgeon, a

47:40

Civil War surgeon, by the last name of Rossvely, and I may be mispronouncing it, but he was a

47:45

Jewish surgeon from New York during the Civil War, and he operated on a drummer boy.

47:53

I believe the boy was 16 years old, Charlie Kelson, and he was wounded, and while he was dying, he was just constantly talking to his surgeon about Christ, and that little boy's constant proclamation of the

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Lord eventually was used by God Himself to pierce Dr. Rossvely's heart, and he became a

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Christian himself and wrote that booklet, the little drummer boy. Yes, I'm aware of that lovely story.

48:27

I'm glad to be reminded of it. I'd almost forgotten it, but yes, I do know it. It's a wonderful story, and I love to hear the

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Jews coming to Christ. I love to hear it. Amen, and by the way, that story is not to be confused with the song,

48:38

The Little Drummer Boy. Right. And one more quick story that goes along with something that you were saying is years ago when my late wife asked me to gather some friends from church to help a friend of hers move furniture out of her apartment.

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One of the gentlemen that came with me to help this woman move, and this woman was not a believer.

49:07

She was a nominal Catholic lady, and the very first thing that my friend

49:14

Bill, who is now in heaven with the Lord, the very first thing he said to this woman was, do you know where you will spend eternity if you die tonight?

49:24

I mean, this is before he said hello or anything, and I actually was very upset with Bill because I thought that he inappropriately frightened this woman, and this woman was frightened.

49:35

She pulled me aside, thought he was very weird, and she was very upset.

49:43

I lost contact with that woman, and about 15 years later, I bumped into her somewhere,

49:50

I believe in a restaurant, and she said that she was a born -again Christian. And I said, how did this happen?

49:56

Tell me the story, because when I met you and the conversations that we had, I knew that you were not a Christian then, and she said, well, remember that guy that was helping me with the furniture who asked me if I would go to heaven or hell, where I would spend eternity if I died?

50:10

Well, that statement haunted me every night when I put my head on my pillow, and finally the

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Lord used that to drive me to my knees and to cry out for mercy. So even things like that that we think are foolish, the

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Lord will bless his faithful servants even when they fumble and mumble and bumble and do things that might not be exactly appropriate, or in the manner which they give them or say them may be not appropriate.

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I suppose a big lesson then is it's worth attempting, isn't it? We shouldn't keep our mouths shut when we can say something to help people.

50:43

Amen. Oh, by the way, RJ, you have also won a free copy of How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness in Spiritual Conversation, so please give us your full mailing address in White Plains, New York, and we will have

50:56

CVBBS .com ship this copy of the booklet out to you. What is the place of the moral law in our spiritual conversation?

51:07

There are even Christians, as you know today, Reverend Roberts, that say that Christians should not be bringing up the law, and of course

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I'm not talking about the ceremonial law, I'm talking about the moral law, and you even had a very horrifying statement recently by Andy Stanley, who is the son of the very famous, world -renowned

51:32

Charles Stanley. Andy Stanley said that Christians have to unhitch the

51:37

Old Testament from our faith, a really horrifying statement, but if you could tell us what is the proper place of the moral law?

51:47

Thank you, I'm grateful to have the question because it's extremely relevant to our modern Christian age. The great influence of the

51:55

Puritans is the one that has brought me to the position that I have, and this, in the brief summary, is my position.

52:04

As you say, there's three forms of law in the Bible. There's ceremonial law, and that's out of date, and we're not to observe that because that belongs to the

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Old Testament. We throw that away. It was preparatory for the coming of Christ, and then there's the judicial law of the

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Old Testament. These were the laws God gave to the Israelite nation when

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Israel was a nation prior to the day of Pentecost, and that's not relevant to us in principle either.

52:32

There's only one form of law which remains, and that is the Ten Commandments or the moral law. Now, the

52:38

Ten Commandments are the rule of life for the genuine

52:44

Christian. Let me be clear as to what I mean by that. We are not saved by keeping the

52:50

Ten Commandments. We're saved by faith alone in Christ alone. That's the great doctrine that Martin Luther discovered.

52:57

We are saved by faith alone in Christ alone, but when we are saved, when we are converted, when we become

53:05

Christians, we have to ask the question, what is the rule which has been given by God to direct me as to how to conduct my life in this world?

53:16

The answer is, it's the Ten Commandments. The Ten Commandments are given by God to show us that our duty is to love

53:24

God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength, and to love our neighbor as ourself.

53:31

It is a sin when we do not do that. So the Christian, if he wants to glorify

53:37

God, must seek to observe the Ten Commandments carefully in his life. Jesus Christ makes it plain in the

53:45

Sermon on the Mount, chapter 5 of Matthew, that the Ten Commandments are still operative.

53:50

He says it like this. He says, Do not think I came to destroy the law or the prophets, till heaven and earth pass, a jot or a tittle shall not pass on the law, till all be fulfilled.

54:02

He goes on to quote the Ten Commandments. So the Ten Commandments are the rule of life, and they're very relevant.

54:08

Let me take an example or two. Take, for instance, the first commandment, Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

54:16

What's essential to that commandment is, we must worship God as he is, and as the

54:23

Bible has revealed him, which means, among other things, that God is absolutely holy, he is infinite, eternal, unchangeable, and he is also a

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Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And we mustn't worship any other god but the

54:40

God who is so described. Take the third commandment, Not to take God's name in vain.

54:46

Now, people don't realize there are such things as minced oaths, or mingled or mangled oaths, which means sometimes people use words which are blasphemous, but they don't realize it because they're in disguise.

55:00

I don't like to use these words, but I have to do so to explain my point. For instance, people often say,

55:06

G, O G, but now that is blasphemy because G really is short for Jesus.

55:14

So obviously we shouldn't use that phrase in that way. Another one is, O Crikey.

55:20

We have it in Britain, I think you have it over there. Now, Crikey is short for Christ, so clearly we ought not to use that expression.

55:27

And there are other expressions like that which ought to be very careful not to use. And if we do use them ignorantly, we are sinning against God.

55:37

I'm not saying that that will stop us from getting to heaven, but it will take away some of our reward, because the more carefully

55:43

Christians keep the Ten Commandments to please God, the more God will reward them in this life and in the world to come.

55:50

And if anyone's doubtful about that, they should study the Sermon on the Mount, because Jesus says where Christians teach others not to keep the

55:58

Ten Commandments and don't keep them themselves, they should be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

56:04

But Christians who do and keep and teach these commandments, Jesus says they should be called great in the kingdom of heaven, and that's in the

56:11

Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5, 6, and 7. That's my brief answer. We have to go to our midway break right now.

56:18

This is a longer break than normal because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida requires of us a 12 -minute break, so please be patient with us during this time and use this time to write down the information that our advertisers provide so that you can patronize them and help us remain on the air, so that the more that you patronize our advertisers, the more they will likely advertise on our program and enable us to continue broadcasting.

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How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness in Spiritual Conversation? Don't go away, God willing, we will be right back with Reverend Morris Roberts after these messages from our sponsors.

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Solid Ground Christian Books is honored to be a weekly sponsor of Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio. Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor, frequent co -host with Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpen's Iron Radio.

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Now we must just make a few announcements regarding upcoming special events. This Friday, day after tomorrow, in New York City, I am holding my first ever

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And this is my very first one. Friday, July 6th, 6 30 p .m. to 10 p .m. at the

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First Baptist Church of New York City on West 79th Street and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side.

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My speaker will be Dr. Tony Costa, author and professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary.

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He will be speaking on defending the faith in a post -modern society, and he'll also be speaking on the dangers of cultural

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Marxism's impact on society and the church. He will have a question and answer session with the audience after that.

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Also that day at 12 noon, I'm having a small gathering of pastors for lunch with Dr. Costa at a different location.

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It's absolutely free if you'd like to join us. So if you'd like to email me and tell me that you'd like to be a part of that luncheon, my email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, ChrisArnzen at gmail .com. But other than that, if you just want to attend the event at 6 30 p .m.

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on Friday, July 6th, it will be held, as I said, at First Baptist Church of New York City on West 79th

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Street and Broadway in Manhattan's Upper West Side. That is a very historic church going back to the 1700s, and I'm sure that you will be, you will love to visit this church, and much more importantly, you will be blessed by the message by Dr.

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Tony Costa. Then coming up in August from the 2nd through the 4th, the

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Fellowship Conference New England is being held at the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine, and the speakers include

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Tim Conway, Mac Tomlinson, Jesse Barrington, and Nate Pikowitz.

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For more details on who these men are and more about the conference, go to fellowshipconferencenewengland .com,

01:08:42

fellowshipconferencenewengland .com. Then coming up in November, oh, by the way, I just want to make sure you get the dates for Fellowship Conference New England.

01:08:49

It's August 2nd through the 4th in the Deering Center Community Church in Portland, Maine. Then coming up in November, we have

01:08:58

November 9th and 10th are the dates for the Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology being run by the

01:09:06

Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. That's going to be held at the Grace Bible Fellowship Church in Quakertown, Pennsylvania.

01:09:13

The speakers include David Garner, Ray Ortlund, Richard Phillips, Timothy Gibson, and Carlton Winn.

01:09:20

Again, the theme is the glory of the cross. If you'd like to register for this conference, go to alliancenet .org, alliancenet .org.

01:09:27

Click on events and then scroll down to Quakertown Conference on Reformed Theology.

01:09:32

I will be manning an exhibitor's booth for Iron Trip and Zion Radio there, God willing, so I hope that you visit me there at the exhibitor's booth.

01:09:40

Then coming up in January from the 19th,

01:09:45

I'm sorry, from the 17th, which is a Thursday, through the 19th, which is a Saturday of January, the

01:09:52

G3 Conference returns to College Park, Georgia at the Georgia International Convention Center.

01:09:59

The G3 Conference stands for grace, gospel, and glory. The theme this January is the mission of God, and they are having a special Spanish -speaking conference on the 16th of January, on that Wednesday, before the

01:10:16

English -speaking conference begins. But they have a very long roster of wonderful speakers, including

01:10:22

Paul Washer, Stephen Lawson, Vody Baucom, Conrad M. Bayway, Phil Johnson of Grace TU, the ministry of John MacArthur, Josh Bice, who is the director of the

01:10:36

G3 Conference, Todd Freel of Wretched TV and Wretched Radio, and many more.

01:10:41

If you would like to register for the G3 Conference, go to g3conference .com, g3conference .com.

01:10:47

Please tell all of these organizations and ministries that when you register to attend those events, or if you're just contacting them to find out more information, please tell them that you heard about those events from Chris Arnzen on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

01:11:01

That means a lot to me when you do that. Now I just have to give a few words that I never feel comfortable giving, but if you love the show and you don't want it to go away, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

01:11:17

click support, then click to donate now. To donate instantly with a debit or credit card, please never ever siphon money away from your regular giving to a church where you are a member.

01:11:29

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01:11:37

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01:11:50

click support, and click to donate now. If you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to obey those two commands of providing for church and home, put those two things first, and if you have anything left over that you can freely share benevolently, then please help us to remain on the air.

01:12:10

If you'd like to advertise with us, just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com and put advertising in the subject line, and as long as whatever it is you want to promote is compatible with what we believe on this program, we will gladly help you launch an ad campaign.

01:12:25

And that email address is also where you could send in a question for Reverend Morris Roberts on how do

01:12:32

I develop heavenly mindedness and spiritual conversation. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

01:12:39

and we would love to hear from you, and we do have Reverend Roberts, another listener,

01:12:46

Joey from Clifton, New Jersey, and Joey from Clifton, New Jersey, he writes, thank you for your very exciting, or should

01:12:58

I say your excellent, writings. Please allow a clarification question on something you said.

01:13:05

On what basis do you separate the faculties of memory and conscience from the faculty of mind?

01:13:13

Were you just calling them out separately to highlight them for categorization, or is this separation intentional with some significant implication?

01:13:29

Right, that's a good question. My answer would be this. These five faculties are all created within the soul by our maker, our

01:13:43

God, and it's not that they are essentially and fundamentally different from one another or separated from another, but that they are different aspects of the way the soul functions.

01:13:58

I suppose if you want an analogy, you could say the body has its own parts and pieces, doesn't it?

01:14:03

We have a head, we have arms, we have legs, and so on. Not that these parts of the body are completely different from one another.

01:14:10

They're all necessary and all part of one another in the body, but these faculties of the soul, mind, will, emotions, memory, and conscience, are faculties of the soul which we can distinguish intellectually without doing any injustice to the soul itself, which is the spiritual aspect of man.

01:14:34

The soul, of course, is that part of man which will not enter into the grave.

01:14:39

The soul, after death, immediately goes out of the heaven for the Christian or to hell for the unbeliever.

01:14:46

It is important to try to distinguish these aspects of the soul so that we may, in speaking about spirituality and meditating upon spiritual things, cultivate all these aspects of the soul and try to improve in every possible way.

01:15:02

Let me take one example. The conscience is an obvious one. A true

01:15:07

Christian has a conscience which is now active and tells him, no, no, you mustn't do that.

01:15:14

No, no, you must switch that music off. It's not good for you. No, no, you must not be taking too much strong drink.

01:15:20

That's obviously going to do you harm. Each faculty has its aspect like that.

01:15:27

The mind has to be educated by theology. We have to fill it with Bible knowledge.

01:15:32

The will needs to be educated by teaching you to say, no, no, no, no, shut your eyes. What you're seeing on the television is not good for you.

01:15:40

The will must be taught to shut it off. The emotions are things which you must control.

01:15:47

We mustn't allow ourselves to fall in love with a person if we're a Christian. We mustn't allow ourselves to fall in love with someone who's not a

01:15:53

Christian. We must say to the emotions, no, no, no, stop now. You must think about somebody else.

01:15:58

We must marry only a Christian if we are Christians. And the memory is important because we fill the memory with things that are important.

01:16:08

In the case of a Christian, we fill the memory with Bible verses. And in that way, we carry with us, you might say, a compendium of biblical truth which guides our conduct throughout life.

01:16:20

So briefly, that would be my answer to the question. Well, thank you, Joey from Clifton, New Jersey. And you have also won a free copy of the booklet,

01:16:27

How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness in Spiritual Conversation. And by the way, I'm urging all pastors and deacons and anyone in authority in the churches where you are members, those of you listening, to order a case of these booklets.

01:16:44

These are booklets that could fit in most tract racks in the narthex or lobby of your church.

01:16:50

These are booklets that are inexpensive enough that you could hand them out to people.

01:16:57

And this would be a very important booklet for your members of your congregation to have.

01:17:02

This is especially, obviously, intended for Christians, not to be necessarily handed out to the lost like a tract.

01:17:10

But I would very greatly urge you to buy a case or more of these and give them away because of the size and the inexpensive cost for these booklets.

01:17:22

And by the way, Joey in Clifton, New Jersey, I look forward to seeing you this Friday at the conference or the seminar, the free seminar in New York City that I'm conducting with Dr.

01:17:31

Tony Costa. Thank you for letting me know that you will be there, God willing. Let's see here, we do have, let's see, we have

01:17:43

CJ in Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York. And CJ says, you were speaking before about bringing up the

01:17:52

Ten Commandments, the moral law in our conversations with unbelievers. Most people,

01:17:57

I think you would probably agree, believe that they have kept the Ten Commandments because they may not have actively committed adultery on their spouses.

01:18:08

They may not curse when they're using the name of God. They may not have actually stolen property in their memory from someone's home or from their possession and things like that.

01:18:21

But they fail to recognize the more clear meaning of the commandments and how more easily we as sinners can violate these commandments even by thinking about immoral sex and other things.

01:18:39

Can you tell us how we can respond to people when they make the claim that they don't believe that they have violated the

01:18:46

Ten Commandments? After all, we cannot respond exactly the way Jesus did to the young rich ruler who said, give up all your possessions and follow me.

01:18:54

We can't say that to strangers, but how can we react when they think that they have kept the

01:18:59

Ten Commandments? Right, good question. Thank you. My immediate reaction would be to say it should turn people's attention to Romans 7, verses 6 -13, where the

01:19:12

Apostle Paul gives a description after his own conversion. He is there referring to the

01:19:18

Ten Commandments and he is telling us how the Ten Commandments, especially and uniquely the

01:19:25

Tenth Commandment, the last one, led him to realize how great a sinner he was.

01:19:32

The Apostle Paul was a Pharisee and of course his outward behavior was pretty good as Pharisees really claims to be pretty good.

01:19:41

But when the Apostle Paul began to meditate on the Tenth Commandment, thou shalt not covet or be envious, he realized through the influence of the

01:19:52

Holy Spirit convicting him that he was not such a perfect person as he had thought he was before.

01:19:58

And it was actually this Tenth Commandment, he tells us, which led to his realizing he was a sinner and preparing him for Christ's appearing to him on the road to Damascus whereby

01:20:09

Christ said to him, it is hard for you to kick against the bricks. And the kicking against the bricks

01:20:14

I take it there to mean the Tenth Commandment was convicting the Apostle Paul before his conversion of his need of salvation.

01:20:22

And I would say we can show the self -righteous sinner who doesn't realize his sins that he is a sinner by explaining to him that the commandments require not only outward conformity to their requirement but an inward love of the things which

01:20:39

God loves and an inward hatred of what God hates. And the Tenth Commandment about not coveting is a very good place in which to begin.

01:20:47

I would recommend that's the way to handle it. Well thank you C .J. You have also won a free copy of the booklet that we are discussing so please give us your full name and mailing address so that cvbbs .com

01:21:00

can ship that out to you as soon as possible. Why do you think or should

01:21:09

I say how do you think most Christians, most regenerate born -again believers are lacking in this area that actually required the need for writing a book like this?

01:21:24

How do you think that we the average Christian are failing in being heavenly -minded and also being spiritual in our conversation?

01:21:34

I would say that not approaching the subject with an answer which is critical of other

01:21:43

Christians, I would say every one of us as Christians has it as their duty to grow in grace and the knowledge of the

01:21:51

Lord Jesus Christ. Every Christian has the duty to improve in his spirituality. The new birth makes a person fundamentally right both morally and spiritually but it doesn't make them perfect.

01:22:04

God has so organized our salvation that indwelling sin remains in every converted person as long as they live.

01:22:14

It's only when we die indwelling sin goes away forever. We'll never sin in heaven of course. So the answer

01:22:20

I would give is this. Because we're all imperfectly sanctified our duty is to concentrate on first of all honoring

01:22:30

God with reverence and godly fear, thinking about life in all its aspects from a biblical point of view.

01:22:42

Whether we're thinking about bringing up our children or if we're younger thinking about what sort of wife will

01:22:48

I get or what sort of husband will I get or thinking about how I'm going to order my life and serve in this world.

01:22:56

We need to improve spirituality and the way to do that is to fill our minds more and more with biblical knowledge, to read the best books, and you're quoting

01:23:07

Spurgeon a moment ago so good a quotation, to read the very best books which give us an insight into how we can improve spiritually and then to apply all these things to our daily life.

01:23:19

And another point I would make is to have a conscience which is on the alert all the time for carelessness on our part.

01:23:27

We're all inclined to be careless either with our tongue or with our thoughts or with our eyes and we must catch ourselves out.

01:23:36

If as I said before we have a television on and something on the television which isn't good for us I would say the conscience should say to us switch it off.

01:23:45

Now if we don't switch it off then really the danger is we are allowing our minds to absorb things which are going to be bad for us spiritually and they're going to be a handicap to our spiritual progress.

01:23:58

So I think that's the way we should take it. We should educate ourselves to seek to become more spiritual because that is what

01:24:06

God requires of us. By spirituality we mean obedience to God's revealed will.

01:24:12

Amen. We have B .B. in Cumberland County Pennsylvania who says, are there different approaches to following your counsel in your booklet that involves spiritual conversation for women than there are for men?

01:24:29

Do you believe that a woman is as free to bring up conversation with a stranger about the gospel even though she is not to have any office in the church?

01:24:40

Can you please explain if there is a difference at all? Well I'm assuming that what is in mind here is a situation where a woman is in a waiting room for the plane to come and there are members of the public who she doesn't really know sitting beside her.

01:25:00

I think the question would mean is it quite all right for her to initiate a conversation which will lead to spiritual subjects?

01:25:10

I would say she must be careful that she doesn't put herself in a position in which she will damage her own reputation.

01:25:22

In other words she has to be careful to assess the wisdom of the people she's going to talk to because we can throw our pearls before swine can't we?

01:25:31

Some people they're so insensitive that if we introduce a spiritual subject in conversation especially for a woman they will just sneer at us and scoff at us and they will think of us as being stupid.

01:25:43

So we have to be discreet but I would say if a woman goes about it in a wise way and makes a wise assessment of the reactions of the people which she's talking to I would say it's worth trying to.

01:25:55

We have to risk a few things in life because if we don't risk anything they will never do anything.

01:26:01

The missionaries when they go to a foreign mission field they have to risk a lot of things often their own lives but it's worth risking it for the sake of the gospel.

01:26:08

So I would say on the whole a woman should try her best to get an opening for the gospel to the people in that situation.

01:26:18

Well thank you B .B. you've also won a free copy of the booklet How Do I Develop Heavenly Mindedness in Spiritual Conversation by our guest

01:26:26

Morris Roberts. Please make sure you give us your full mailing address so that cvbbs .com can ship it out to you.

01:26:32

We have Jane in Huntingburg Indiana and Jane says hi

01:26:40

Chris I also wonder if the principle of regulative worship or actually she means regulative principle of worship and singing psalms supports the five parts of the soul to achieve the goal of the pamphlet.

01:26:59

Right the question sir I would say the things that satisfy the soul must be things that God himself has revealed because the bible is a perfect book and it is divinely inspired to satisfy all the requirements of the human soul.

01:27:21

No other book can do that but the bible can do that and I would say the regulative principle is the principle that everything we do in worship must be biblical.

01:27:33

Now to put the two of those things together seems to me there's only one conclusion. If we in all our worship are guided by the bible and if the bible is the divinely inspired book that we believe it to be then it can only do good to the faculties of the soul and satisfy the faculties of the soul and I can only answer therefore in that way.

01:27:56

I can't think there's anything about the regulative principle which is going to leave the soul prejudiced in any way or under informed in any way because it is divinely inspired and the bible is exactly what

01:28:09

God has given to us to teach us how to become more spiritual and therefore I must say yes the bible and the principle will do what the soul most needs.

01:28:21

Amen and by the way since you were talking about the regulative principle because our listener brought it up I have to give a shout out to my friend

01:28:29

John Price of Grace Baptist Church of Rochester New York where he serves as the pastor because you wrote a wonderful endorsement for his book

01:28:38

Old Light on New Worship Musical Instruments and the Worship of God a Theological Historical and Psychological Study which is a defense of exclusively acapella worship.

01:28:50

He is not an exclusive psalmist as you are but he is a believer in exclusively acapella worship.

01:28:58

I believe I have to thank you that's good to know that. And he wrote a I'm sorry he conducted a three -part interview on Iron Trip and Zion Radio on that book and it was quite quite an intensely interesting and fascinating and convincing three -part interview if I do say so myself and and I really enjoyed reading your your commendation of the book.

01:29:22

We are going to our final break right now it's going to be shorter much shorter than the last one if you have any questions that you'd like to ask get in line with a couple of people that are already waiting to have their questions asked and answered by sending me an email at chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:29:38

chrisarnson at gmail .com don't go away we'll be right back with Morris Roberts for the final half hour of our program right after these messages from our sponsors.

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01:31:04

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01:31:11

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01:33:46

that's lindbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen, and this is our final half hour of our interview today with Reverend Morris Roberts on the theme,

01:33:56

How Do I Develop Heavenly -Mindedness in Spiritual Conversation? If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

01:34:04

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and as always, please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

01:34:13

USA. Even if you think I already know your city and state and country of residence because you've written in before, you have to always put that in your question because I don't have that good of a memory.

01:34:25

We have a lot of listeners. We have someone with a name,

01:34:30

Reverend Roberts, that I don't know if you've ever heard this name. It's a very unusual name. It's a Dutch name, and his name is

01:34:40

Sicaly. That's his actual name, and he is from Ponoka, Alberta, Canada, and he says,

01:34:48

I was wondering if Mr. Roberts is an acapella only also. That is my understanding.

01:34:54

If so, what does he say about Psalm 33, where it clearly talks about using instruments?

01:35:00

Sorry if this is a bunny trail. Well, yeah, we've already established that since you wrote an endorsement for a book that promotes exclusively acapella worship, obviously that is your position, but do you care to respond to his question about Psalm 33?

01:35:18

Yes, certainly. Yes, the way I would interpret that and the way that most of the men in the past, like the

01:35:27

Puritans, would answer the question would be like this. They would say that the reference there to instruments in the

01:35:36

Psalms refers to the period of history when the ceremonial law was valid and in place, that is, the period up to the day of Pentecost.

01:35:49

Up to that period, in the temple, there were instruments of music, and these were authorized and allowed by God.

01:35:58

Those instruments, therefore, were given by divine appointment. But since the coming of Christ, so much has changed.

01:36:07

For instance, with the ceremonial law abolished, we today mustn't sprinkle blood. We mustn't use water for washing away sin or uncleanness.

01:36:17

The blood of Christ is the only thing that does that. So I would say the point to make here is with the coming of the day of Pentecost, Christ having finished his work, the ceremonial law is now over and done.

01:36:32

And these elements of the ceremonial law, which included the use of instrumental music in the temple and tabernacle, these things now are also out of date.

01:36:43

But the instruments mentioned there are simply pointers to the fact that we, with our own hearts and souls, must glorify

01:36:52

God, throwing our hearts and our souls into our worship with the same enthusiasm and zeal as they used to have in the olden days when they had these instruments of music.

01:37:02

That would be the view which the Puritans would hold, I believe, and that's my view. And yes, there are things, other than music even, that are going on in some of the psalms that Christians do not participate in.

01:37:16

Absolutely. You would have to bring up all of those psalms and give a defense as to why you do not do everything that all of the psalms contain, if you're going to use the instruments in the psalms that you select.

01:37:34

And of course, well, I have to again say, well, I don't know this for certain, but I'm assuming that like most folks who are exclusively acapella

01:37:44

Christians and also exclusive psalmody Christians, that you do not believe that we can never use musical instruments in any way, shape, or form.

01:37:54

We can never listen to Handel's Messiah with musical instrumentation. We can never sing

01:38:01

Christian hymns that are not God -breathed hymns from the

01:38:08

Psalter. I'm assuming you would be like most who believe that the acapella and the exclusive psalmody are only for the corporate worship of the people of God.

01:38:19

Absolutely right. Yes, we take the view that in what we call public worship, that's the phrase we have, in the public worship of the church of God, then we must observe the regulative principle.

01:38:30

But outside of the public worship of God, say in our own homes, it would not be so binding upon us to apply the regulative principle.

01:38:40

Yes. Right. Yeah. So because some people automatically assume that people who have an exclusive acapella understanding of worship think that God hates instruments or that you hate instruments or something,

01:38:53

I think it would be farther from the truth. In fact, there are very accomplished professional musicians who believe in exclusively acapella worship, that they leave their instruments outside the door when they come into worship.

01:39:09

Well, I appreciate that very much. Yes. May I just make a footnote?

01:39:15

Robert Murray McChain, one of the very saintly men in the free Church of Scotland, died in 1843.

01:39:24

He was an outstandingly spiritual man, very well known and well worth reading the life of Robert Murray McChain.

01:39:32

He took the view that it was not proper for Handel to have taken the text of scripture and used them as he did in his

01:39:41

Messiah. I'm not quoting my own thoughts there, I'm quoting McChain. So it just goes to show that these

01:39:47

God -dominant men of the past did take a very decisive view that the Bible must be treated in a very sacred way, and he felt that it was not proper for an instrumental form of music such as the

01:40:00

Handel's Messiah to use the biblical text in that way. Amen. Just a footnote.

01:40:06

Sure. Well, thank you, Sickle Lee, and if you give us your full mailing address, actually,

01:40:12

I'm sorry, Sickle Lee's in Canada, and we can only mail out the free books to those within the confines of the 50 states because of postage problems.

01:40:21

Sorry, Sickle Lee, but if you have a friend or family member in the United States that you would like us to mail the booklet to, we will do that for you.

01:40:33

One of the things about heavenly -mindedness, there is a common saying,

01:40:41

I don't know how common it is in the UK, I'm assuming that it was fairly common there, but I could be wrong, but there is a saying that still exists today, even though it's an old saying in the

01:40:52

United States, you are so heavenly -minded you are no earthly good.

01:40:59

Now, if someone is truly heavenly -minded, that would be a lie that they were actually so heavenly -minded that they're no earthly good, because if you are really, and in truth, heavenly -minded, you will be very good on this earth in the realm of helping people and being a light in the darkness, being a benevolent person, and being someone, as the epistle of James discusses, that we must not be ones who only have a profession of faith with our lips, but we must be actively involved in acts of mercy and so on.

01:41:37

If you could just reply to that horrible saying. Well, it's a very clever saying, which of course is very easy to learn and very easy to say, but your point is very good.

01:41:49

If a person is spiritually -minded and heavenly -minded, it means that they're applying the

01:41:54

Ten Commandments to every aspect of life, and just as you have made the point so very well already, if we apply the

01:42:01

Ten Commandments to every aspect of life, it means we love our neighbors as ourselves. If we see people with any kind of practical need of any sort, whether it's financial help or whether it's physical help or assistance with their job or their work or the keeping of the house, then it means that the spiritually -minded person is the very first person to come and give you the help, and this is visible in the case of missionaries who could have stayed at home all their lives and had a comfortable time, but they went to China, they went to Africa, went to India, and they risked their life and everything else in order to bring every benefit they could, practical as well as spiritual, to the people of these communities.

01:42:38

So, so heavenly -minded is no usefully good, and no worthily good. It's easy to say that, but it's not according to the reality and the practical outworking of that in the lives of men, no.

01:42:51

Amen. We have, let's see here, we have

01:42:56

Susan Margaret in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania, who asks, you mentioned earlier when you were quoting the scripture that we should not cast our pearls before swine in relationship to spiritual conversation.

01:43:14

How do we, though, as Christians who are fallible and do not have the mind of God, we do not know things perfectly and we are not omniscient, how are we to know when we are and when we are not casting our pearls before swine?

01:43:32

That's a very good question. It does require discernment, and discernment is something which comes rather with spiritual development and sanctification.

01:43:42

Let me give an example. If you're in a waiting room, waiting with a plane, and there's six or seven people with you in the same room, and three of them are dead drunk and two of them are full of swears and cursings,

01:43:54

I would say that's an example in which we must not cast pearls before swine.

01:44:00

We don't bring the name of God or of Christ into a situation like that. But then if we're in a company where people are not cursing and swearing and not dead drunk but reasonably decent, it's worth risking the situation a little bit and try to invite people to share their thoughts and to try to move them to think about heavenly and spiritual things.

01:44:23

So it's worth risking it, but where there's an extreme case of obviously drunkenness and things like that,

01:44:28

I wouldn't throw our pearls before these people, no. And we should only hope that if they are in a hospital waiting room and they're drunk and cursing that they are not the physicians that work there.

01:44:41

Yes. But thank you, Susan, Margaret, in Dauphin County, Pennsylvania. You've also won a free copy of the booklet that we are discussing today,

01:44:50

How Do I Develop Heavenly -Mindedness and Spiritual Conversation? There is, let's see, there is

01:45:02

Christopher in Suffolk County, New York, and Christopher says, when the

01:45:09

Bible forbids us from being involved in silly talk, does that mean that we cannot tell clean jokes that we would think are not offensive to God and to Christians?

01:45:24

When we can goof around and laugh and make silly voices, are those all under the umbrella of silly talk?

01:45:32

Or is the Bible really just talking about using the name of the Lord in vain and using profanity and vulgarity?

01:45:41

That's not an easy question to give a straight answer to. The best I can offer is,

01:45:47

I do not believe it is sinful necessarily to tease one another.

01:45:55

And sometimes teasing, I think, is a good way of getting over a problem that's arisen in a society we're in.

01:46:03

And we can simply say something to people which, shall we say, lightens the atmosphere, or instead of people growling at us, they have a smile, and that lifts the tension from the situation.

01:46:16

So I would say teasing is useful in that way, and I wouldn't say it's forbidden by the

01:46:21

Bible. But I think when the Bible talks about adjusting filthiness and foolish talking, the implications are that we introduce into the conversation subjects which themselves are objectionable, sexual talk, and talk about filthy stories and things of that sort.

01:46:39

We mustn't bring those things in. But I would say a little bit of humor and a little bit of good fun is not something which is forbidden.

01:46:46

I would say no, but as long as it's clean. I hope that you heard my huge, enormous sigh of relief with that answer.

01:46:59

I can guess it was a huge sigh of relief. I didn't hear it. Actually, I had myself on mute when

01:47:05

I did it. Let's see here. We have

01:47:11

Bob in Hartford, New York. And Bob in Hartford, New York, says, when we see someone getting angry with us when we are presenting the gospel, how do you counsel us to break the mood other than joking or anything like that in order for them to listen clearly to what we're saying and to get beyond the initial offense that they may have had from what we have said?

01:47:41

Is there any counsel that you could give to get the person to settle down and to realize that we are not intentionally doing something to hurt their feelings, but only to preach the truth, which may, because of the content of the truth, trouble their soul, just as the

01:48:00

Bible says it will? Yes, that's a difficult question to answer.

01:48:06

And I think it's a good question, one which needs to be thought about carefully. I would say the first thing to try to do is to lighten the atmosphere.

01:48:18

To try to bring about an atmosphere, if possible, in some way, whereby the anger goes away from the person who shows the anger.

01:48:30

Because, as you say, where people are angry like that, there's no way we're going to benefit them by giving them gospel teaching.

01:48:36

So sometimes a lighthearted statement can bring people to the point in which they realize they've gone too far with their anger, and it lightens the atmosphere.

01:48:47

And when you feel there's a relaxation begun on the part of the person who was offended, I think then you might say, you know, dear friend,

01:48:56

I'm not here to offend you by what I say, but I'm here to say something which is for your highest good.

01:49:04

Would you allow me just to say a little bit more, that you need to be converted and born again, because I love you so much, dear friend.

01:49:12

I would hate to know that you were going to go to hell, and I'm giving you this advice, and only

01:49:18

Christ can take us to heaven. That's the sort of response which I would offer myself in a situation like that.

01:49:25

You know, you said something very interesting. I don't know if you've ever seen this video, but there is a notorious atheist here in America named

01:49:36

Penn Gillette. He is a magician and a comedian, and he said something quite remarkable.

01:49:44

In spite of the fact that he is an atheist, he doesn't want anybody to talk about God in his home or at his dinner table, he was given a

01:49:54

Bible by one of his fans at one of his events. I think it might have been in Las Vegas or what have you, and he was blessed by that.

01:50:03

He was humbled by that, and he actually said, as an atheist, that if you believe

01:50:09

Jesus Christ is the answer to whether you will spend eternity in heaven or hell, then not to tell someone that is the greatest act of hatred and cruelty that you could commit.

01:50:28

That's very good. That's a very, very good statement. Very, it's love for the people that drives us to speak to them, even when we know there might be an angry reaction.

01:50:41

We must do our best to try to help people not to go to hell. That's our great motive, and when people read the motive correctly, as the gentleman does, whom you referred to, then it makes all the difference in the world.

01:50:54

Amen. We have, let's see, John in Bangor, Maine has a question. He said,

01:51:00

I have a list of books that you have written yourself, but other than those books, which

01:51:05

I will certainly purchase as many as I can, what books do you recommend to make ourselves more heavenly -minded, both from authors currently in heaven and living authors?

01:51:18

Outside of the holy scriptures, of course, which are first and foremost in my reading. Right. Well, there's so many of them.

01:51:28

I would say the Westminster Confession of Faith, and especially the larger catechism.

01:51:36

The larger catechism is not so well known as the shorter catechism on the Westminster Confession.

01:51:42

It's a Puritan document, and the Puritans were just experts at the subject of teaching us sanctification.

01:51:48

It was a tremendous emphasis they had all the time. And the Westminster larger catechism gives a very detailed explanation of the

01:51:57

Ten Commandments, which we had questions on earlier tonight. And I would recommend that people get that and read it carefully, because it's an extremely helpful book on all sides and aspects of spiritual mindedness.

01:52:12

Now, what other books are there? Well, very many. Pilgrim's Progress, I'm assuming you would recommend?

01:52:19

Yes, I certainly would recommend the Pilgrim's Progress, eminently so. It's very interesting. The Pilgrim's Progress was written by John Bunyan, and he was awakened from his worldliness by overhearing conversation between three or four ladies sitting in the open air in another town where he lived.

01:52:38

And they spoke about the new birth together, the Christians. And he overheard them, and it shook his conscience.

01:52:46

And he said he was shaken by the experience. And it led to his eventual conversion. And he wrote 60 books in 60 years after that.

01:52:54

So that was some event, wasn't it? Wow, I, for some reason, don't remember that part of Bunyan's testimony.

01:53:00

But that's pretty powerful. My mind was immediately transported to Augustine when he heard the children playing and saying, pick up and read.

01:53:07

Oh, very good. Yes, tall, low -legged. That's right. That's another good one.

01:53:13

Very good illustration. Yes. And if you could now give us about four minutes of uninterrupted time where you give a summary of what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners about this conversation today.

01:53:28

I believe today there is, especially amongst nonconformists and evangelicals, a neglect of the deepest things in the

01:53:42

Bible. And I would say these deepest things are, first of all, the fear and respect which is due to God.

01:53:52

There's very little emphasis these days on the fear of God. But when we come to the

01:53:58

Old and New Testaments, we see reverence for God.

01:54:04

And the fear of God is a real element which motivates the apostles.

01:54:10

It motivated those of the Old Testament. We read, for instance, the Book of Revelation. John the

01:54:16

Apostle, who was the writer of the Book of Revelation, at least it was given to him to write, when he saw the vision of Christ, he said he fell on his face before God, before Christ.

01:54:27

Now, that reverence for God and for Christ is not so common as it needs to be.

01:54:33

And another point I would make is this. It's very important that we should emphasize to ourselves the need to cultivate conversation one with another.

01:54:43

I would suggest we should have certain rules in life. As Christians, if we get together, we should talk together about spiritual things.

01:54:51

We shouldn't be normally talking one with another about worldly things.

01:54:57

So I would say make it your practice to ask your friend a question. What book have you been reading which has done you good recently?

01:55:06

Or another question might be, in your family worship, which chapters are you reading just now?

01:55:12

Or what is your minister preaching on just now? And when you've just come out of church, ask your neighbor beside you, did that text help you?

01:55:23

Or if you meet somebody who doesn't have assurance of salvation, you could say to them, you know, I could tell you a number of texts of the

01:55:29

New Testament that would really help you with your problem of lack of assurance. Would you like me to tell you what they are?

01:55:35

And you could raise that subject with people in your own home.

01:55:41

I make it a practice when I meet young children always to have questions to put to them. One of the questions

01:55:47

I like to put to children is, whose sin was the greater? Was it Adam's sin or Eve's sin?

01:55:53

And that's a good question because it allows me to explain. Eve, when she sinned, killed herself.

01:56:01

But Adam, when he sinned, he killed the whole world. Because it's the imputation of Adam's sin as the head of the covenant of works that led to us all being sinners by birth and having to die.

01:56:13

So in that way, you educate young people and older people to think theologically.

01:56:19

And the simple answer to the question is, we need to get into a theological way of thinking and conducting our daily life.

01:56:27

And if we did that more, the churches will be stronger. And I think we'd see more blessing through the preaching of the

01:56:33

Word of God. That would be my answer. Amen, brother. Well, I want to make sure that our listeners have all of the contact information that they need to purchase your books and to find out more about you.

01:56:46

First of all, the Banner of Truth has published quite a number of books written by our guest today,

01:56:54

Morris Roberts. I read them earlier. If you go to banneroftruth .org, banneroftruth .org,

01:57:00

you can find out more about those. And the publisher of the booklet that we are addressing today,

01:57:08

Reformation Heritage Books, that is a wonderful resource for very biblically faithful books and specifically theologically reformed books.

01:57:20

You can go to heritagebooks .org, heritagebooks .org. Please don't forget about our sponsors, cvbbs .com,

01:57:29

cvbbs .com. They have a huge selection of Banner of Truth books because they actually are located right around the corner within a probably a 30 -second walk of Banner of Truth's United States headquarters.

01:57:45

And so go to cvbbs .com. And also our friends at Solid Ground Christian Books have a wonderful assortment of very excellent resources to help you become more heavenly -minded and more prepared for a spiritual conversation, solid -ground -books .com,

01:58:01

solid -ground -books .com. Do you have any other contact information that you care to give, Reverend Roberts, as far as how someone might be able to get in touch with you or anything like that?

01:58:14

Do you mean my own email address? If you care to share it. You don't have to, but if you care to share it. No, no,

01:58:19

I don't mind sharing it. Yes, it's morrisroberts at talktalk,

01:58:25

T -A -L -K, T -A -L -K .net. Morris, M -A -U -R -I -C -E, R -O -B -E -R -T -S,

01:58:31

Morris Roberts at talktalk, T -A -L -K, T -A -L -K .net. Yes, and make sure if you are listening and you misheard

01:58:40

Reverend Roberts, his name is not spelled, his first name is not spelled M -O -R -R -I -S, the way many people might think.

01:58:46

It's spelled like people, at least in the United States, typically might think Morris would be the way to pronounce it,

01:58:53

M -A -U -R -I -C -E, M -A -U -R -I -C -E. I also want, Reverend Roberts, if you could hold on the line when we go off the air,

01:59:01

I just want to say a proper goodbye to you when we go off the air. And I want to remind our listeners, please join me day after tomorrow, that's

01:59:09

Friday night, July 6th, 6 .30 to 10 p .m. in New York City at First Baptist Church on the corner of 79th and Broadway for the free seminar with Dr.

01:59:18

Tony Costa on defending the faith in a postmodern society and the dangers of cultural

01:59:23

Marxism's impact on society and the church. I look forward to seeing you there, and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater