February 22, 2016 Show with Gregg Hodge on “Men Worth Following Are Men Who Follow Through: A Vision of True Manhood For Fathers To Pass On To Their Sons”

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May 5, 2016

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01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.
01:13: This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 22nd day of February 2016 and it is by God's mercy and grace a gorgeous breathtaking day here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, the most spring -like day that we've had in quite a while and we have returning to the program today as a guest
01:40: Greg Hodge of Princeton Revival and today we are going to be discussing men worth following are men who follow through a vision of true manhood for fathers to pass on to their sons.
01:54: We're also going to be delving more deeply into his book and his teaching concerts that he and the
02:01: Princeton Revival run all over the United States and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Greg Hodge.
02:10: Brother, it is a joy to be back with you and I hope you are as ready to sharpen iron as you were before your birthday.
02:22: Yes, I'm just as ready to sharpen the old iron and we have in studio again joining me as a co -host the
02:31: Reverend Buzz Taylor and it's great to have you back behind the helm to co -host today,
02:38: Buzz. Thank you and hello again, Greg. Hello, Buzz. Good to hear you again, brother.
02:43: Glad you're having nice weather up there and one of the things I wanted to address even before we get into our subject at hand,
02:53: I want you to, because we forgot to do it last time, I want you to give a review of the new movie that's out,
03:04: Risen, and I know that you actually have friendships with some folks who are involved in the production of that movie, but if you could tell us something about it.
03:14: Sure, of course, it's out now. I went to a screening last week and I was just impressed with all of the aspects of the film,
03:26: Chris. I went with my dear friend Rick White, who is serving as,
03:34: I don't know his official title, but he's kind of a shepherd to the cast and the crew and all the folks involved and he does travel around and tries to link pastors up with the film, encouraging them to maybe do expository series on the themes of the film and use that as a piece culturally to witness and it's a pretty fun approach to transforming the film industry.
04:08: Risen itself, great movie. I found it to be, you know, of course any movie is going to take some liberties with the text in the same way that Peter Jackson had to translate
04:21: Lord of the Rings from text print into film, just the media itself requires translation.
04:30: I think that there was a great job done here. I think they bracket the story about the day of Christ's crucifixion and they introduce a fictional character who, you know,
04:44: I think historically quite accurate and plausible, but there's a tribune who ends up being present at the crucifixion and he's kind of, it's a great fresh new perspective of somebody who is an unbeliever and as you look at it as somebody who is elected, is being called to the gospel throughout the film and so it's a chronicling of his journey.
05:11: But I found the characters compelling, there's even humor in this. I mean, you know, Mel Gibson's passion was very, obviously it had a very somber tone throughout given the nature and the genre of that film, but this one
05:27: I think they're trying to highlight some of the humanity and the beauty of Christ in his relationships as he discipled and so some of that comes out and there's some real some fun points there, but I found it to be compelling.
05:40: I think it's one of the best made Christian movies that we've ever seen and I would encourage everyone to buy a ticket for somebody to take them.
05:49: Great, and so this movie, although it is a fictional story, in your opinion it is not really conflicting or contradicting anything that is a biblical truth about the resurrection narrative?
06:07: No, you know, when we look at other films that have been put out, especially by secular companies, you know, you find them at quite odds with the world view and the account of scripture and just taking liberties that are so radically inconsistent with 2 ,000 years of historical interpretation, so that they're completely untrue and, you know, there's no way to reconcile them with our world view.
06:39: But this one, just on the opposite end, I found it to be entertaining as it contains truth and as it shows truth from a fictional character standpoint, but the historical narrative and the backdrop, completely comfortable with recommending it as a great film.
06:59: Now, I'm reminded of C .S. Lewis in his article, Christianity and Literature, when someone posed the question, what makes for good
07:09: Christian literature? And he began with, well, the first thing that makes good Christian literature is that it's good literature.
07:16: And I think that's what we find here. This is just compelling filmmaking. Some of the shutter speeds that are with some of the more intense action sequences, some of the landscape shots that they had, just beautiful, the lighting, the sequences themselves, it's just a very compelling story.
07:34: And in addition to that, obviously, the fact that you're highlighting you're highlighting the power of Christ and the message to compel souls.
07:47: So, I think it's a great, it's a great film. I can't wait, you know, to see, hopefully, how well it does and hopefully they'll come out with more films like it.
07:57: And I know that there is great debate amongst even theologically minded brethren within the
08:06: Reformed community who disagree whether one should ever have an image of Christ in a film at all.
08:13: Is Christ actually depicted in the film? He is. And it's, you know,
08:22: I think it's well done. I wrestle with that. I think, of course, there is the danger of worshipping any image.
08:31: And one can look to, you know, Jim Packer or Francis Schaeffer or something in between. I think we've got a lot of good, godly people trying to think well about it.
08:41: I tend to want to allow for it. Obviously, I saw the movie, encouraging others to see it.
08:48: I do think the portrayal of Christ is one that is appropriately in the background, if I can say it that way.
08:59: I'm trying to recall, I think when he speaks, it's either a paraphrase or a direct quote.
09:05: He's not saying anything. There's not too much liberty there. He's just shown, he's shown as a character who is enjoying doing the
09:15: Father's will. And the scene of the crucifixion is, you know, it's well done.
09:23: He's more, well, he's not the centerpiece of the film in the sense that it's this character who is on a journey from his lostness to recognizing and seeing who
09:40: Jesus the Christ is, and that the message that the Christians are bringing to him is, in fact, true.
09:47: And so the emphasis is quite clearly on him, and all the action takes place around that.
09:53: So I don't think it's unfair or inappropriate portrayal of Christ. I mean, I'm sure there are things to pick on, but otherwise we wouldn't be conservative evangelicals to pick on.
10:04: But I just tend to want to celebrate the goodness of it. What an opportunity. What a glorious opportunity for us to have a positive agenda with somebody that we sense the
10:17: Holy Spirit might be actively working in, to take them to this movie and just experience the power of the message in a different media.
10:26: So, you know, we hear sermons about Christ, and we hear songs about Christ. There are skits, if you will, that some churches, there are many ways to do it.
10:37: Obviously the Lord doesn't intend us to just pick up the New Testament and read it, otherwise you'd never have sermons happen.
10:44: And I do think that there are appropriate conversations in media for us to,
10:51: I think Christ would have us to do that, to put that out there. Especially in the secular context, it's a way that we can bring others to Christ.
10:59: And for me, I found myself just worshiping God during the film because it's a rehearsal of the power of God in so many things about what the word risen means, just highlighted throughout.
11:14: So I loved it. So Greg, when you say Christ is not the central figure, is that sort of like the only thing
11:22: I can relate to that? Is it like along the lines of Ben -Hur, where you see his influence in the people very well, but he's not really up front?
11:33: It's a perfect analogy, Buzz. I think that you certainly don't want to downplay
11:40: Christ in any film, but that's exactly what's happening.
11:46: What you're doing is highlighting Christ by following somebody who is being called, and that's exactly what's happening in this film.
11:57: I think it's a great advance for Christian filmmaking, and I think it's a wonderful tool.
12:05: Personally, I found it devotional. People just want to argue about the craziest things.
12:14: Somebody goes, no, I'm not saying that we substitute the reading of the word of God by watching films, but when
12:22: I went, I was easily able to watch that movie to the glory of Christ and really enjoyed it.
12:30: We're excited to go back as a family and do it. That's good, and I don't want to belabor this topic because that's not really why we had you on today, but do you know anything about the faith or lack thereof of the people who created the film?
12:47: I know that, for instance, when Mel Gibson created the Passion movie, his extreme sect of Latin right
12:57: Catholicism that he was a part of, I don't know what affiliation he has with it now, but I know his father and other members of his family were in a sect of Catholics that really are of the more extreme nature of anti -Protestant.
13:17: They deny Vatican II's olive branch to Protestants and so on.
13:23: I think that they're in many ways more consistent with historic Romanism, but there was some heretical or aberrant views that were clearly in the film that Gibson created, especially regarding Mary and so on.
13:40: His movie was based largely on a vision of some woman whose name escapes me right now, some
13:49: Catholic visionary or saint, but anyway,
13:55: I was just curious if there was anything that you noticed anyway that was of an aberrant nature when it came to the depiction of biblical subjects.
14:06: Yeah, I didn't notice anything. I'm not saying that there aren't those out there who would find something, but I didn't have a check in my spirit about, oh my goodness, there are other films
14:21: I've gone and seen where it's just so obviously, it's such a departure from anything close to the biblical narrative and you can see quite clearly that it comes from the other side of the fence that has an agenda.
14:41: So I don't see that here. I want to be very careful to be too critical of it.
14:48: That was my response to it. I would much rather endorse it and take what's great from it, which is so much.
14:58: Everything that I saw was, again, I didn't see anything first time through, maybe subsequent.
15:04: You can always go back and pick away something, but that's not my bag, baby.
15:11: I'm much more about highlighting what's positive and using that.
15:18: The old Puritans used to call it redeeming something. If you go hear bad preaching, don't shoot the guy, redeem the preaching with your kids when you get home.
15:27: So I think the same thing here. There's great films, sit around, watch, enjoy, celebrate that God's activity is going on in that industry and then positive or suggest it to your friends that they go view it and do likewise.
15:45: I'm just thinking about a really laughably ridiculous movie about Christ that was made for television film on ABC years ago and after the scene where Jesus turns over the temples of the moneychangers in the temple, when he comes out of the temple, he's rebuked by one of his disciples and Jesus actually said, yeah,
16:13: I'm sorry, I really lost my head in there. Are you kidding me? But that kind of a thing.
16:21: I did not see any of that. And we had obviously the horrifically heretical
16:28: Noah movie. I didn't say it, you did.
16:36: Well, it's a perfect case. Again, I always want to grant people, anybody who was on that set, who was a legitimate believer and was excited about the potential of that film, who obviously subsequently would have been radically disappointed, but anybody who was on the film who was hoping for the best, you want to tip your hat to that.
17:00: But clearly there's a film that, at least in my humble but accurate opinion,
17:08: I think it had an agenda a different way and they were taking liberties that were not justified by anything except the person's imagination.
17:20: Right. Well, I am planning to see that movie this week,
17:25: God willing, and I will let you know my thoughts after I see it and perhaps we could get an interview with your friends who were involved in some fashion with the film.
17:37: Yeah, sure. And so today we're actually talking about men worth following or men who follow through a vision of true manhood for fathers to pass on to their sons.
17:50: And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
17:55: C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. And please give us your first name, at least your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the
18:07: U .S .A. And so if you could, tell us where this concept of following through came from and exactly what do you mean by it?
18:20: Well, it comes from one of the offerings that the band is giving. Chris, we're trying to, our main target is men.
18:31: And even beyond that, I could say for the most part, our demographic is men 40 and above.
18:37: And maybe this would be a good time to describe the band because people who missed your first interview will know nothing about what you're speaking about.
18:46: Yeah, sure. About a year ago, I got together with some of my longest standing friendships and we prayed about forming a men's ministry that involved music and teaching.
19:01: And I was finishing my first book, Minding Your Faith, how men can have devotional lives that will actually affect their real lives.
19:11: And my publisher will be happy for me to note that it's at Solid Ground Christian Books.
19:18: That's solid -ground -books .com. That's solid -ground -books .com.
19:25: It's unearthing treasures for the Christian community. As I wrote that book,
19:34: I'm also a songwriter, so I began to craft songs whose lyrics corresponded to the themes of the book.
19:42: And so the five of us in the band all have teaching gifts, and so we put together this this men's ministry called
19:52: Princeton Revival. And as a hodge, I have a custom relationship with Charles Hodge, who is, of course, the first professor of systematic at Princeton.
20:02: And for those of us familiar with the history of what once was a collection of seminaries and schools designed to deposit godly, prepared people into ministry, they've all, shall we say, drifted from that.
20:23: And so Princeton Revival, I think it's a symbol, brother, that our culture has drifted away from solid learning, solid thinking,
20:36: Christian thinking, just thinking itself, let alone Christian thinking. And I get into some of this in the book, you know, there are reasons why we don't get into the
20:46: Bible, and Satan has been masterful on his poise to draw people away from the
20:52: Word. But the Word is that which will bring revival when attended by the Spirit of God. And so I think that for us to get into the
21:01: Word is the first piece. So this is the four books that I've mapped out, and the songs that correspond, we put together a teaching concert to kind of step people through a narrative, if you will, of the
21:15: Table of Contents. And so with that theme to men, we are trying to offer events or experiences for men.
21:27: And one of the things that we talked about and are developing now, we're doing the first one this summer, is an event called
21:34: Follow Through. It's based on 2
21:39: Timothy 4 -7, and it's an easy pickup where Paul says,
21:45: I have fought the good fight, I've run the race, and now I've remained faithful. And so we want, as men, we want to find those right convictions and commit to those convictions and follow them through to the end by the grace of God alone.
22:02: And so this is an event where we're trying to get dads to pass it on to their sons.
22:08: Yeah, the problem with a lot of men is that while trying to do the right thing for their families, in fact, a commanded thing that they work and provide for their families, some men get so caught up in the anxiety of how much their next paycheck is going to be and whether or not they get promoted to that sought -after position that they've been longing for for years, or the fear of getting fired, and all these other things are combined into the very typical mindset of a working man who is filled with anxiety.
22:54: Very often, the very children and the very wife that he is seeking to provide for get neglected horribly, and sometimes even to the point where a man should be under church discipline for something.
23:07: But if you could comment on that. Sure, yeah. Well, this also comes out as a consequence, really, of the second book.
23:16: The second book is titled, Men Worth Following, and so I appreciate the way you're stating it, that men worth following are men who follow through.
23:25: In that second book, what I'm doing is logically progressing from minding your faith to men worth following.
23:34: If minding your faith is the call to get into the Word of God, and to submit to it, and to take joy in getting to know the
23:42: Lord who has given this self -disclosure to us, thereby, as we know
23:48: Him, we're able to enjoy Him and glorify Him through that. So what does it look like when grace starts taking hold of you?
23:56: What I'm not doing is putting up an oppressive legalistic list of do's and don'ts for men.
24:02: What I am trying to produce is, okay, look, when grace is growing in us, and the Lord is active through His Word, and the means of His Word, here's what it's going to look like.
24:14: You're going to be a guy that's worth following, because you're following Christ. And so I wrote a 15 -phrase statement,
24:25: Chris, that I taught to my own son, and that is the thesis of this book.
24:32: And we had quite a little ceremony when he was 12 years old to commemorate this, you know, with him.
24:41: And that thesis is now the subject of my own men's study here in Nashville, just working through it with guys my age to say, look, this is, again, not a whipping tool, but this is our prayer.
24:58: This is a vision. We've got too many guys sitting around on the couches building mass amounts of unreal change, weapons, you know, food, backpacks, whatever, on an
25:16: Xbox game, but have no capacity in their actual life, you know. And, hey, an appropriate game with appropriate amounts of time as a leisure, as a breakaway to recharge,
25:32: I suppose, is not my own thing, but I'm not going to down that. But like anything, our culture has taken that puppy, they've taken that window, and a truck has gone right through it, you know.
25:45: So we've got guys who have no idea what it looks like to be men, and so that's what we're trying to do with this next book and also this event.
25:54: Yeah, perhaps you could even go through some qualities of Christian manhood that may not be as obvious to men and women as we think that they are.
26:08: Sometimes you have this machismo understanding of masculinity that not only can be a ridiculous goal for a man to even attempt to achieve, but maybe even a sinful way of living.
26:30: You know, very often the character traits of a macho movie hero are ones that include promiscuity, lack of commitment to a wife, or he's not a one -woman man, a man who looks upon those who pray and find strength in God as weak.
27:03: Even in some of the old movies, some of the old westerns, you know, you'll have the guy who's the hero of the film saying things like, well,
27:12: I'm not much of a praying man, you know. We're supposed to look upon that as a great noble trait because he is so strong and confident and fearless, he doesn't need to be a praying man in his mind.
27:27: But if you could just go on with a list if you could, doesn't have to be exhaustive, but some traits that men should be seeking to acquire from a biblical point of view.
27:39: In fact, if you could start doing that when we return from the break because we're going to a break right now. Great.
27:44: And once again, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, for Greg, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,
27:53: c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. And we'll be right back after these messages with Greg Hodge of Princeton Revival and my co -host
28:05: Reverend Buzz Taylor. Don't go away, we're going to be right back. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, for am
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31:45: This is Chris Arnzen, and yes, Solid Ground Christian Books publishes books by many of the best
31:52: Christian authors from the past and present, including our guest today,
31:57: Greg Hodge of Princeton Revival. Go to solid -ground -books .com,
32:03: solid -ground -books .com, and type in Greg with two
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32:37: You don't have to be fearful when you enter the website of Solid Ground Christian Books, as unfortunately many bookstores and internet booksellers are places where you are putting your very soul in peril by entering in through the doors or into the internet portals of these places.
33:01: But thank God for places like Solid Ground Christian Books, very solid organization and ministry.
33:08: And our email address, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
33:14: And we were talking about, before the break, I was asking you to give us some traits of biblical masculinity that our listeners should want to embrace if they are men or boys growing up to be men, and for those traits that are desired to be passed on to the children who are the men of our future.
33:44: Well, I think a great place to start would be just to read the vision statement for Christian men that is the thesis of the second book,
33:55: Chris, Men Worth Following, and it's something my own son memorized and I'd memorized, and the guys in my study are memorizing, to have it in your back pocket and to pray that the
34:08: Lord would be gracious in allowing us to move in this direction of the vision statement.
34:15: So it's something to look for. I love what you said before the break. We don't have many models today, and the ones that we had recently air,
34:25: I think, on the side of kind of a passivity, and then the other side of it is a strength that is an
34:38: American individualistic strength. I mean, you do want to be strong, but your strength comes from Christ, and to acknowledge that, first and foremost, with utter dependence and prayer is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength,
34:53: I think. So let me read the statement, and then we can, as a matter of fact, I'll email it to you, but it's just a working thesis, and I do think it could yield some great discussions.
35:06: It's nothing new, it's just a crafted phrase, a set of phrases that describe, for me, the best distillation of what
35:13: I think gets us underway in the pursuit of Christian manhood. So it is, we exist to glorify
35:21: God by enjoying Him forever in our private lives, our family lives, our church lives, and our community lives.
35:31: As we submit all things to the will of God, honor everything per the word of God, assess ourselves by our conformity to the image of the
35:41: Son of God, perish to ourselves so we can provide for others in and out of the kingdom of God, and engage ourselves relying on the power of the
35:52: Spirit of God, rejecting passivity, accepting responsibility, and leading courageously, praying that we will become men worth following as we follow
36:01: Jesus the Christ. Amen. Yeah, there's a lot in there, but the first five get it underway, and we can talk about any of that, but that's a good place to start,
36:13: I think. Yeah, amen. Well, why don't you start with the notion of enjoying
36:21: God? And by the way, you sent me an email, but I could not open it.
36:27: Oh, right, okay. Well, that statement there, but I had also sent some lyrics, and I don't know if you got those.
36:37: There's a song here that might be okay to play. Yeah, I will definitely play it.
36:43: On WeTransfer, and I can set that song up a little bit, but it's about a guy worth following.
36:51: But I do, in the book, in both these books, and ahead of everything, I agree with the old confessions that this is why we're here.
37:04: We are here to bring God glory, and you know, there's,
37:09: I don't really want to get into the argument of, I mean, I guess it's not really an argument, but there's some discussion about, given the fact that all of humanity seems to glorify
37:22: God, and enjoying Him, are those two separate things, or is it one thing under this, coupled with the word, and?
37:33: So, do we do two things, or is it the one thing? And I tend to lean myself toward Piper's interpretation that,
37:43: I don't know this only, but the primary way, one of the things that certainly sets us apart from the created order is that we can enjoy
37:52: God. We can make the connection between everything that we experience, and that He is the
37:59: Creator, and it is His providence that's bringing things to happen. It is His sovereignty that is controlling all things.
38:07: There's a resting and an enjoyment in that that brings Him glory, and I think most of the men in churches today,
38:17: I don't want to say most, but I don't know that I'm too off there, I do think a majority for sure miss that, that that's why you're here.
38:29: You're not here to have a good marriage. You're not here to flourish as a business person. You're not here even to be a good dad who's a friend.
38:37: You're not here to go set up the tent for the church. You're not here for those things by themselves.
38:45: All of those things are like the faces in The Last Supper.
38:51: They point to one thing, Christ. All the lines implied in my life are to point to Christ, and to His goodness,
38:58: His greatness, the beatific vision, right? And I think that guys miss this. They think that God is to be obeyed, and I love
39:06: Baxter's language. I mean, a lot of people have said this. The carpenter doesn't complain about all the tools that he has, and the student doesn't complain about all the books that he has to read.
39:19: Why? Because you get to read those things. You get to own those tools, and so that you can do your, you know, you fulfill your calling to the greatest degree with joy and skill.
39:32: I think for us to complain about the way that God commands us to do certain things, Baxter says they're not only duties, they're mercies.
39:42: We get to live this way, and of course what he's pointing to is the reality that this is the best way you could ever live.
39:48: When you say we get to live this way, you mean we have the great opportunity and privilege to live this way. Exactly, yeah, exactly.
39:55: I mean, you've got the qualifiers in there that we need to put in. This doesn't happen. We don't even desire to do it without God's grace, but as a believer, we are opened up to what was hostile.
40:08: You know, we were hostile to God in our minds, but when we're regenerated, our minds now turn and find
40:15: Scripture compelling, and find it beautiful, and find it joyous. I just had this conversation with a friend of mine who's a lawyer here in town, and I've known him for so many years.
40:26: You know, after decades of living and seeking to live as a
40:31: Christian, you begin to see I have banked my whole life on Scripture.
40:39: I've done it horribly. I've drifted away. I've come back, blah, blah, blah. But as God's Son, and He's persevering in me, my goal, my heart longs to live out
40:50: His will, and when you get 30 years into that, you realize, how do you say it?
40:57: How do you say it? It's worth it. God, God, you know what you're doing.
41:03: God, you're sovereign. God, you're good. God, you're gracious. God, you're merciful. God, you do lead us into paths of righteousness.
41:11: For your name's sake, praise you. Right? And that's why I say we get to live this way.
41:17: Most men don't. They're not thinking that way. And if they are, they're thinking about their own fulfillment and gratification, which is a piece of it, but that, again,
41:26: I think is the byproduct of putting Christ in the triangle of Scripture at the head. And this is a piece that drives the whole vision statement, everything underneath the vision statement.
41:38: In fact, the way we print it, we'll print it in the book, we exist to glorify God by enjoying
41:43: Him forever, is the heading sentence. Everything else is indented underneath that. And so I, you know, yeah, that's a great phrase.
41:54: You can talk about that puppy all day long. Amen. And obviously those of us, or those of our listeners who have the
42:02: Shorter Catechism, the Westminster Shorter Catechism, know that that actually is a part of the questions of discipleship.
42:11: The very first, in fact, is what is the chief end of man, and that's to glorify God and to enjoy
42:17: Him forever. And that is something that people may look upon with puzzlement.
42:26: How can you enjoy following Christ, being a quote, quote, born -again
42:32: Christian? But it's all about giving up stuff, isn't it? How can you enjoy that forever?
42:38: That seems to me pretty boring, and it seems like I'm being robbed of freedom to love life and enjoy it and have fun.
42:47: But that is not true, is it? I mean, obviously, when you come to Christ, there are many things that you should cut off, like a cancerous tumor, because you shouldn't, with a new heart, even love them anymore.
43:02: But beyond that, there are things that God has given all men to enjoy as well that we need not stop enjoying as Christians.
43:13: Absolutely, brother. I think that's part of what I'm saying in the front part of minding your faith, is these men are missing this, that they follow a
43:23: God whom they don't know, and you can't enjoy what you don't know. It's very simple logic.
43:29: But whether it's a hobby, I don't care what it is. I share a little story in the book about I'm really not a great golfer.
43:37: The whole point of recreation and leisure is to get out and do something that relaxes you, sort of winds you up.
43:42: So I have to get from a lesson to enjoy it. I don't care if it's that or chess or whatever the hobby might be.
43:53: A career, the same thing. Who's not frustrated until they learn the grammar of a career and begin to get skill and experience.
43:59: The same thing, how much more in living relationships with people, and even more importantly, with our spouses.
44:07: Now, of course, as my father, who's a great theologian, said, son, if you ever tell me you understand a woman, I'm going to have you taken away.
44:13: But the reality is, as we open ourselves up to each other, that's where the enjoyment is, the details.
44:23: One of the first songs in the band's music set is called Specificity. And if you say it a number of times, you might speak in an unknown language, but the lyrics is exactly this, that the more we know something, the greater our joy can be in it.
44:45: And you have to have specific knowledge about God for you to enjoy Him. And so the process for gaining this knowledge, which is found, of course, only in special revelation of Scripture, is what we're calling minding your faith.
44:59: It's putting this revelation of God, His disclosure to us, into your mind so that it can find its way down into your heart and into your life.
45:09: So that's a great... When we started the study, I did it in Florida and I did it up here, we spent a number of weeks just on that phrase so that people really began to orient themselves toward enjoyment.
45:24: And there's a fine line here. You don't want to put my enjoyment at the top of the list, as if that's the goal.
45:30: The goal is to bring God glory, but the means by which we do that, in large part, is by seeing
45:39: Him. Jim Packer talks about a horizon -filling view of God, seeing
45:46: Him, and filling your horizon with an understanding of everything. Whether it's pizza or, you know, a
45:54: Derek Jeter ball that's hit. Well, not anymore, but you know what I'm saying? Whatever it is, the goodness of it is coming from the
46:02: Creator. And we're to worship Him for it. If you can't do it to the enjoyment of Christ, you shouldn't be doing it.
46:08: And, of course, for a man that's produced an incredible sense of rest and relief, you know, you were talking earlier about basically
46:16: C .S. Lewis' image of living the Christian life like paying taxes. But I sure hope that after I do all this stuff, obedience,
46:24: I sure hope I've got some time for myself and what I really want to do. And yet, that is the height of folly and betrays an absolute misunderstanding of the
46:32: Gospel, what it means to live in God. I would long to fulfill the good ways of God.
46:39: Who wants to wake up and have fear and guilt and shame, be that which
46:44: I have to do all kinds of mental gymnastics to get around? Who wants to wake up and not know what their day or their purpose is?
46:51: Who wants to wake up and not, you know, and continue to argue with a wife or misuse a wife or to abuse a child in any way?
46:59: Or to, who wants to go to work and be lazy and not feel good about what they're doing and something's contributing?
47:05: Who wants that? Nobody wants that. You know, the Christian will really is the best view of life, although that in and of itself is not the goal.
47:14: It's just that those are the props, I think, that one of the ways in which God is allowing us to bring Him glory is through the enjoyment of obeying
47:21: Him, trusting Him, relying on Him, resting in Him. If I can keep rambling,
47:28: I had another conversation with a friend of mine who had the term rest. And so much of what men struggle with today,
47:37: I think, is unrest, because they're not satisfied. And the great theologian
47:45: Mick Jagger, of course, singing this, that, of course,
47:53: I'm being broad by calling him a theologian, even broader by calling him great, but I do think the song signals something that I think every man, to the degree that we are not living in God's will, we face this pain of, what am
48:14: I doing? And how do I quiet this? How do I suppress this?
48:21: And we do it with, especially in America, we've got so much privilege and money.
48:27: You can have 10, 15 hobbies, am I right? You can golf. We have guys who get more excited about their fantasy football league.
48:36: I'm not downing that per se, but you can move from one season of sports to the next season of sports to watching this film series, that film series, this
48:46: TV series, this hobby. Even good things like woodworking, we can have so many hobbies, but they're really,
48:57: I almost want to say often we can just substitute, go ahead and put the word idol in there, because what it's doing is suppressing the presence of God by actually insulating you from what would really satisfy you.
49:09: And when we, the more I live, and the more that the Spirit of God grants me repentance and a dependence on God to live in His power, live in His grace, and the joy of that, the satisfaction of that produces rest.
49:24: I can cease my activities. I don't have to look beyond what Scripture says.
49:30: I just want to concern myself with knowing the Lord, right?
49:35: I'm going to, go ahead, I'm sorry. Well, I was just going to say, I know, you know, Buzz, why don't you speak to us about this, because I understand you've perfected this entire vision.
49:44: Oh, yes, yes, of course. Yes, I was wondering what legacy you've passed on to your sons other than very bad habits.
49:56: But before we do that, before we have Buzz enlighten us with his pearls of wisdom,
50:02: I was going to try to play one of your songs here, Specificity, and let's see what the
50:09: Lord has in store as I make this. Well, I think, I'm going to interrupt you, brother. I'm sorry to say that I think you've got a lyric there.
50:17: The only song that I sent you is a song that, do we have enough time for me to set it up?
50:23: Yeah, sure. If you press play on that, you'll just get lyrics.
50:29: Okay. I think I have six or seven lyrics, but the lyric that is attached to this, the mp4 file, mp3 file is a song called
50:41: When I See You Again. And I wrote it for a friend of mine, who is my neighbor, who very, very tragically died this summer.
50:51: And actually his birthday's tomorrow. His wife doesn't know that the band has got this song for her.
50:58: But the song is really, it's sung in the voice of the spouse, finding the silver lining that really when a loved one here dies and is in eternity with Christ, we just press pause.
51:14: We will see them again. Amen. And so there's grieving, but it's with hope, and we'll get to make new memories when we see them again.
51:25: So that song is identifying with the wrenching pain of death, but that the sting has been taken out, because heaven will make it right one day.
51:35: Amen. And if you've got that, that's a song that you could, yeah, yep, I'd love to, it'd be just an honor to have that go out today and bless people.
51:44: Because I mean, when I wrote it, I thought it would just be for my friends down the street.
51:50: But the more I'm realizing that so many of us are dealing with grieving, that hopefully it could be a comfort to many.
51:57: Well, ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters, when I see you again by the
52:02: Princeton Revival, and I'm not hearing,
52:12: I'm saying it's a very quiet song for some reason that's not playing. And I can't tell you why, brother.
52:19: It's a tacit. But perhaps at some point we will be able to return to, oh, wait a minute.
52:29: Let's see. No, I'm a technological ignoramus. So this is not that easy to do here for me anyway.
52:39: It's probably very easy for most people in this business, but not me.
52:45: Well, about the time I get used to it, they change the technology. Exactly. But you were going to Buzz before.
52:55: Buzz, you are a father. You have sons that you long to see really trust in Christ through all affliction and all the trials and tribulations that they face and to glorify him in good times and bad.
53:13: One of the things that I'm sure is difficult is that they are no longer under your roof.
53:21: No, no, they're quite spread out as a matter of fact. And if you could just, what as an ordained minister and a father, what have you sought to do to remain a godly influence in their lives?
53:36: Well, of course, obviously, I've always wanted my children to understand the scriptures and to walk in obedience to Christ.
53:45: But I have to admit that in many ways, I was coming into a lot of certain knowledge myself as I was raising them.
53:52: And I can tell you this, time does not wait. It's like, okay, hey, now
53:59: I listen, guys, you got to catch away where they go. But one of the things
54:06: I've just recently told all my, when you say my sons, I have four daughters and two sons.
54:12: Okay. So I'm going to include my daughters into this. Sure. But I recently, in communication with them, let them all know that,
54:25: I quoted, I can't remember if it was the second or third John, my greatest joy is to know that my children are walking in truth.
54:37: And I have a tough challenge in my life with my children, especially because I did go through a divorce.
54:46: And I was very much concerned about how was this going to be affecting my children, because I didn't want the divorce.
54:56: And one of the reasons I didn't want it was because of the fact that I didn't want that negative effect on my children.
55:03: But I have learned since then, and we're now over a decade beyond this, that I am amazed just how, grace is amazing, because the small time
55:20: I had with them to impart the things of scripture, to impart godly life, they caught a lot of it.
55:30: And I was kind of thinking, well, I'm sure by now they're losing it all because of this extenuating circumstance in our family.
55:38: But they catch it. And that is merely the grace of God, really, because things were very badly sidetracked.
55:49: But it is a joy when I talk to them on the phone, and they ask scriptural questions, and they know that life is to be patterned after scripture.
56:00: It's just tremendous. I probably shouldn't be reading your book, but like I said,
56:06: I want to tell the men out there, don't wait too long, because time does not.
56:12: And if you want to impart something to your children, you don't have long. And one of the things that I've noticed, the only daughter of yours that I've met,
56:23: Tiffany, she certainly has a diligence and a zeal to find the right man of God.
56:33: She's fussy in a good way, not accepting any man that she's introduced to, to even date.
56:42: Even if the man is stunningly handsome and has a good job, she seems to be very concerned about the person's faith and what they believe doctrinally and theologically.
56:53: She really shocked me one time, because she is very picky about boyfriends and all that, and she does not go for mere recreational dating.
57:04: And if a guy isn't a potential, he's not going to last long with her. But here she is being very careful about who's the man that God is going to lead her to.
57:19: And then we went out to eat one night and she tips the waiter really big. And I'm like, what are you doing?
57:26: Oh, he was hot. Tiffany. But yet, it's a joy because she understands that even because of doctrinal differences, most young people, especially when they're in love, it's already too late to talk any sense into them once they're in love, you know.
57:48: I'm sure Tiffany, wherever she is, if she's listening, is delighted that you shared that story. Yeah, I'm sure of that. Oh, listen,
57:56: I already had my spell about that with her once before because I spent some time in radio and people down here in the
58:06: Carlisle area knew her, but they didn't know my other daughters. And one of my other daughters got engaged.
58:12: And when I was on the air, my co -host asked me like, anything interesting happened in your life last night?
58:18: I said, oh yeah, my daughter got engaged. And everybody's going up to Tiffany saying, oh, that's wonderful. About time.
58:24: That's good news. I'm like, what? Well, your dad, you know, just announced it on the radio. It's like, he what?
58:31: And I had to get back on and say, hey, no, no, no, no, it wasn't her. Well, we have to go to a break right now.
58:38: And by the way, Greg, if you want to email me a much more simpler method of playing your song that you want me to play, for some reason
58:48: I cannot play this link that you sent. But anyway, we're going to be going to a break right now.
58:55: If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,
59:02: chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please include your first name, city and state and country of residence.
59:08: If you live outside the USA, don't go away. We'll be right back with Greg Hodge of Princeton Revival. Like a topical reference
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01:03:21: Welcome back. This is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Greg Hodge of Princeton Revival, a ministry and a band.
01:03:30: And we have in the studio once again our co -host Buzz Taylor, the Reverend Buzz Taylor.
01:03:37: And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:03:43: chrisarnson at gmail .com. We have an anonymous listener who writes, uh, my wife says that she will begin submitting to me when
01:03:56: I begin leading like a biblical and godly husband. And it gets very frustrating because I am trying my best and she has been a believer longer than I have.
01:04:06: Please give me some much needed advice. So Greg, you got any advice for this individual?
01:04:14: Well, there's the obvious reality that the New Testament does not attach his obedience or faithfulness to hers.
01:04:27: And, uh, it doesn't necessarily mean she's going to hear this, but what
01:04:33: I would say to her is, uh, if you would turn to Ephesians, you are to submit to your husband as to the
01:04:42: Lord, that your obedience is to the Lord. And if you would honor him, then you would obey his injunction to submit to your own husband, uh, graciously, despite your own personal, uh, criteria.
01:04:59: And then as far as encouraging the brother, I would say, uh, trust the process.
01:05:06: Usually we don't, usually I find, and you know,
01:05:11: I haven't counseled extensively. I have a wonderful degree from Southern Seminary that afforded me a good bit of classes and time in counseling, but I'm not doing that actively all the time.
01:05:26: But I will say that when I was pastoring and I came across couples in my own experience, what I have found is, uh, women want to respond, uh, to men who are worthy of nurture and care and the kinds of things that women are gifted to do, and naturally want to follow that.
01:05:46: Uh, but often I think it takes persistence in the male to demonstrate it. A lot of times guys have gotten themselves into situations that have taken years to develop, and the women are now, uh, if they're not bitter, they're just apathetic, which is even worse.
01:06:01: And it takes time. It just takes time. And, uh, they want to believe it,
01:06:06: I think. Every Christian woman wants to believe that their husband is, uh, because ultimately they're trusting the
01:06:12: Lord. And, uh, if the man claims to be trying to change, put himself before the grace of God and ask the
01:06:20: Lord to grant him repentance, and he's pursuing that, uh, she will notice that.
01:06:25: She will see that. She wants to see that. And I would encourage him to stay the course, get prayer support, and, uh, um,
01:06:34: I, I also, something, something that is true in my life, I know, remind him, remind her, uh, this is not a light switch.
01:06:46: The mortification of sin and the development of, of righteousness in our life as the
01:06:53: Lord works, again, completely dependent upon the grace of God. You can't do anything in the flesh that's for it.
01:07:00: You don't want to be driven by, by guilt. What I would suggest that he do is realize that the
01:07:05: Lord puts us in paths of righteousness. He is, he leads us into those. It's not, it's not an overnight experience.
01:07:12: It's something you build into. You get to untrain yourself in certain habits or retrain new certain habits.
01:07:18: And I would close with this, what you're trying to see the
01:07:23: Lord train you in is not the behavior. I would sit down with Ephesians, uh, 521 and following, and I would look at the four injunctions there to the man to live, to love the wife, love the wife with a sacrificial, sanctifying, terrifying, or caring, terrifying.
01:07:46: That's a good one. A sacrificial, sanctifying, caring, and unbreakable love.
01:07:54: Spend some time praying and meditating about that. What does that look like? So that's the what, what does it look like?
01:08:00: Secondly, I would ask why is this important? Why do you think the Lord wants us to love our wives with that kind of a love?
01:08:08: That's huge. Why, why should we do it? Uh, and then that'll motivate you to get to the how, how do
01:08:15: I do this with my wife? I think I know how to care for your wife personally and what her love language is and those kinds of things.
01:08:22: And, uh, you know, put her, make sure she knows she's the priority. Um, and, uh, and keep that in front of you.
01:08:30: And, and then, uh, once you've got the what and the, and the why, and you begin to think about how that might look particularly in your marriage at this season, calendar it, man.
01:08:41: Nothing gets done unless we say, when am I going to do this? And when, when does these things begin?
01:08:47: And, uh, you know, for me, uh, we're going to teach boys that come to this follow through conference or this follow through event, we're going to teach them all that the when begins right now, get on your knees and pray.
01:09:00: Cause that's the first step of any act of repentance or obedience is to ask God, give me the right spirit, give me the right power, give me the grace to follow through with this.
01:09:08: And I think, brother, if you're patient with that and you're praying, others are praying, um, the Lord is faithful and he will bring it about.
01:09:15: Um, and I, that's my only, uh, only caveat to that is I've seen,
01:09:21: I'm sure buzz, uh, you know, you've seen this as a pastor. There are women who are not going to repent.
01:09:26: They're going to hold on to their bitterness and that is not up to you. Um, but you can be faithful to trust the
01:09:32: Lord in his faithfulness and see where he might take her heart. I think we also need to, uh, somewhat define terms here.
01:09:40: Uh, because what I'm hearing in this situation is something that I have run across many, many times in dealing with men.
01:09:48: Um, what, what do they mean by, I wish he would lead.
01:09:54: Um, there are many men who are intimidated, uh, by their, their wives because, uh, the wives take the stance that they are more spiritual than the man anyway.
01:10:07: And, uh, I've been in a Bible study where the woman actually in front of her husband said to the whole group in the room there, you know, well,
01:10:13: I'm more spiritual than my husband. And, you know, I have to remember, you know, and I'm thinking, well, how does she know that?
01:10:19: By what standard is she more spiritual? Um, does she mean more obedient or what?
01:10:25: And, uh, what I have found out in many cases is that, uh, the women aren't trying to make us better Christians.
01:10:34: They're trying to make us women. And, uh, I, I, you know, have had this conversation many times that we are not, my relationship with Christ is not going to look like a woman's relationship to Christ simply by the fact that I'm a man.
01:10:49: And, uh, Christ did not tell men that if you love me, have these warm fuzzies.
01:10:54: He said, keep my commandments, feed my sheep. You know, uh, it's like,
01:11:01: I have very good friends, uh, that, that are male friends. And a lot of it is because we don't talk about it.
01:11:07: It just is, you know? Um, and, and I think the women need to understand that, that men are different from women.
01:11:13: They're, they're wired different. They communicate differently and are they actually leading, but they're not getting it.
01:11:20: Yeah. It brings up a great discussion about what is male leadership and, uh, and, and probably the single greatest,
01:11:28: I don't know if you guys, I'm sure we can all recommend great books here, but the, for me, one of the greatest, um, kind of systematic studies of the whole topic is, uh,
01:11:40: Wayne Goodham's and John Piper's, uh, treatment of it in, uh, recovering biblical masculinity and femininity,
01:11:48: I think is the title. Yes. You're talking about that fat blue book. Yeah. Now it's a bit intimidating.
01:11:54: So you might gravitate toward, first of all, you might gravitate toward those first three chapters of that book, which is a little more digestible, or there's, they have a smaller little pamphlet version that I believe is called, uh, 50 questions about biblical masculinity and femininity.
01:12:09: But there's a wonderful, those first opening chapters are just a great reflection, biblically understanding the kinds of things that you're talking about.
01:12:18: Chris, you have to understand, you know, I've heard guys, uh, there they are in front of the TV with the remote and an empty
01:12:23: Dorito bowl screaming, submit. You know, uh, they're both sides of this.
01:12:32: And I fully agree with you that the feminization of men in church is something that we need to address because I, again,
01:12:40: I totally agree with you. I'm not a spouse only. I'm a husband and that's very different from a wife because our genders are different and they're complimentary in nature.
01:12:51: And I'm kind of glad that my, my wife, does things the way a woman would do them.
01:12:58: And, uh, as my, as my dear friend, Mark Mann says, uh, he has people in the church say, well,
01:13:04: Mark, you need to get in touch with your feminine side. He says, well, I put my arm around Barbara and say, there,
01:13:10: I just did. We need, and this is it, you know, we need, when you read the text of scripture, you, you, again, coming back, we need men who mind their faith.
01:13:25: If you're in the word of God and the spirit is communicating truth to your soul, you can't miss the fact that we're to be sensitive and caring.
01:13:33: We're to be the tender warrior, uh, that I think Stu Weber wrote that book. Um, we are to be the island of safety and security that our, that our, that our wife needs, that our daughters need, that our son wants to become like.
01:13:54: Uh, and that's done with grace though. I don't see, uh, I don't see the man's man sitting around with a scripture teabag and testaments.
01:14:03: Um, you know, having the fuzzies, I don't listen to, I mean,
01:14:09: I'm sure all three of us would say there are times to be incredibly emotional about the word of God because, uh, you can't even speak at times.
01:14:19: Um, and I'm of course not accusing women of being, um, you know, entirely and overly emotional all the time, but there is kind of this, this bent, there's the, the, the intuition.
01:14:29: Whereas, uh, to go back to the garden, you know, I felt responsible for the teaching, uh, and to deal with the understanding capacity and the logic of it.
01:14:41: It's not the only piece, but we have to begin there because all obedient begins in the mind.
01:14:47: And I think that that's the male role. It's that grasping from both the visionary standpoint and then breaking down the vision.
01:14:56: Um, I just, I think that's something that God is going to hold men accountable to. And the women need to, in that sense, understand and submit to that leadership and understand, like you said,
01:15:06: Chris, define it that way. Uh, and, and we just live in a cultural mess right now where faith is invoked.
01:15:15: By the way, I was just curious, uh, does your wife ever scream out from across the room to you?
01:15:20: Hey, expert on manhood, take out the garbage already. Will you? Uh, something like that.
01:15:31: That was so typically Chris. Uh, I just don't, I always liked it. Watch.
01:15:36: You could hear my melt away at the second. No, but I, you know what part of the thing when, uh, when
01:15:45: Buzz, you were talking a few months ago, I love the way you were couching your conversation because part of what your children are going to see, part of what my children are going to see, they need to see, they're supposed to see is
01:15:57: I know that I can't do this. Your dad makes mistakes every day.
01:16:03: And for me to open up the credit, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not saying go after sin because it'll, you know, give
01:16:09: God more grace. You know, I, I think I did. I seem to recall the Apostle Paul saying something about that.
01:16:16: Uh, but I am saying that I'm doing my children a great disservice if I try to be that guy who never messes up.
01:16:29: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so when I do mess up, which is the inevitable piece of this, of this life, when
01:16:35: I do, I, I seek to, before my wife and children pray, ask for forgiveness, um, seek repentance and with the great dependence on the
01:16:49: Lord and his power, try to try to move in a direction that is godly. And that's, that, that is some of that is, um, yes, yes, my dear.
01:16:58: Uh, I'll take out the trash now, you know? Um, but I, I'm with you.
01:17:04: There's, there's this, um, I've had people say to me, you know, you're not, you know, certain guys aren't strong enough or certain personalities aren't this or that.
01:17:14: And I've said, look, my pastor told me, my mentor told me man clearly is to have the last word in the home.
01:17:23: And that's the way it is in my home. Yes, dear. Which, you know, it's an old joke, but there's a reason why it's an oldie but goodie.
01:17:34: Um, and I, you know, I think there is a sense in which we ought to out serve each other, but the male call to lead is a very real thing.
01:17:43: And I think it's defined typically for us. If we just study and ask God to help us, he will move us in that direction.
01:17:49: I don't know if you're aware of Al Mohler's website. He has something that I printed out for my boy, um, and that I reflect on regularly.
01:17:58: It's, uh, it's a little article. If you Google it, it's called, um, when does a boy become a man?
01:18:06: And it's 13 little summaries of, uh, of topics on, on biblical masculinity.
01:18:15: And he has these traits. These are marks. I mean, I was thinking when you were asking earlier, Chris, can we delineate or can we enumerate some definite marks of strong Christian men?
01:18:25: Um, absolutely. This would be a great piece to consider again at Al, uh, albertmohler .com.
01:18:34: And if you search within that website for when do boys become men,
01:18:39: I think you'd be thrilled to work your way through that, uh, in, uh, in a discussion group or just personal meditation.
01:18:49: What you're saying reminds me of, uh, first Corinthians 1311, the apostle
01:18:54: Paul, uh, stating that when I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think like a child, reason like a child.
01:19:01: When I became a man, I did away with childish things. And I think that that is probably one of the hardest things for men to overcome most men anyway.
01:19:15: And the cause of lots of, uh, derision in the home and, and arguments and all kinds of things.
01:19:24: Um, I mean, I've been hearing some tragic stories of a father, uh, a grown man, uh, in his sixties who, uh, you know, gives his own children, uh, who are separated by great distance from him, the silent treatment and has like disowned them practically for months because of the way he feels he's been treated and during arguments and just, uh, just utterly amazing.
01:19:55: The, the childishness and the selfishness and the narcissism of this adult person, uh, that's, don't you think that's one of the things that, uh, one of the things that men very frequently often mistake as a sign of manhood is always being right and demanding to have our way and all that, but that's really childish, isn't it?
01:20:21: Well, absolutely. And there's so many ways to mess it up. This is why, you know, there's an appropriate humility for any of us who are being honest with ourselves, but there's also the glorying and where you see
01:20:34: God maturing you. I would also want to throw into this, Chris, to get your comments of Buzz as well.
01:20:42: Um, this is part of what brings up the necessity of fellowship among men. If part of this role, this, this, the, the
01:20:50: American, um, ethos is individual. I don't need anybody else's help.
01:20:56: It's weak for me to betray my weaknesses to anyone. Um, and there's,
01:21:01: I think there's a way appropriately to gather with men and be strengthened by the fellowship.
01:21:07: We, we can encourage each other. So we can, we can, we need each other. I need the discernment that this brother over here has.
01:21:14: I need the experience that this brother has over here. Uh, here's a guy over here whose teenagers are grown up. He can build into me.
01:21:20: I think we're very foolish, uh, and remiss to ignore that, uh, collective wisdom and encouragement, prayer support, um, which, which, uh, is not prevalent.
01:21:34: I don't know about you guys. You see it. I certainly have a, I'm so blessed with the circle of brothers in my own life, but I don't see that as the norm in the evangelical church.
01:21:44: Yes. Yes. And you know, um, I think there's also, I'll give you a couple scenarios along those lines that come to my mind.
01:21:53: Uh, I don't remember if it was with you or with another guest, but, uh, recently I was sharing about the fact that there's a number of us that meet every
01:22:02: Saturday morning. Um, we are called Back Porch Bible Institute.
01:22:08: Yeah. And, uh, and we, we, we can be reached.
01:22:20: Our brand new, uh, as of yet very much under construction, um, website is, uh, backyard
01:22:28: Bible, a back porch Bible, excuse me, back porch Bible .com. Uh, and, uh, but, uh, we've been meeting, some of us have been meeting for years and, uh, that has been a very meaningful time to where my schedule has been totally changed around that.
01:22:46: And we have others joining us now and things are happening naturally there that, uh, churches have tried to do and have not been able to duplicate it because they're trying too hard.
01:22:59: And they're actually on an FBI watch list for some reason. I won't even get into that part of it, but, uh,
01:23:08: I think it all started with the uniforms that they started wearing. I'm sorry.
01:23:17: But, um, I mean, there's this, this camaraderie that's approaching, but then, you know, I think about it as opposed to, for example, uh, uh, a program in a church to try to do the same thing, the good old monthly men's breakfast, where you get together, the men start talking before you really get into anything deep, it's time to stop and listen to the missionary speaker.
01:23:39: We don't get together. We've got busy lives. And, um, but you're saying it's important for men to have times of fraternal fellowship.
01:23:49: Well, all we did this, this whole, the whole purpose of our getting together on Saturday mornings was just to, we read books, we talk about what we've read.
01:23:58: And like I said, I, I, I really, um, wish you didn't steal the title iron sharpens iron, because that's what
01:24:05: I wanted to use for our group because that's, what's been happening. Iron has been sharpening iron and all of a sudden the iron's getting sharp, you know, uh, it's, it's, it's become a lot more meaningful over the years.
01:24:17: And, uh, even over the past few weeks, as a matter of fact, and it's, it's a natural thing that's happening because we are getting together and we are talking about scriptural issues from the scriptures and real life without the burden of, gee,
01:24:32: I can't say that here because I don't want them to know. Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:38: I totally resonate with the model. I think there's a place for, you know, formal, um, kinds of training and discussion.
01:24:48: Um, but I'm, I think most of it takes place informally where a lot of it's caught and it's caught in a group.
01:24:55: Um, we were, we were just having this discussion at my men's group this past week where a guy was saying, you know, look,
01:25:01: I know what the Southern Baptist definition of discipleship is. And of course he, you know, he didn't mean to be overly harsh.
01:25:09: He was just tongue in cheek about the fact that discipleship means, uh, you know, a 13 week textbook.
01:25:16: Uh, and, and a lot of guys, that's, that's all they do is consider that their, uh, you know, their, their program.
01:25:22: And it's, it's, we can't deny there's a place for more formal learning a body of content that's going to help us.
01:25:33: But, um, but we were talking about the fact that this happens naturally, organically in a group where my guys meet and our first hour, hour is a grill out.
01:25:48: That's it. And, you know, you can get guys to come in that program. Uh, there's no scripture memory.
01:25:54: There's no kumbaya thing. There's no, there's no email prayer list. And I'm not necessarily against that.
01:26:00: Those are the kinds of things that the girls do. I'm going to pray for my brothers. I'm all about that. But some of these codified things, um, they, if somebody said that wherever ritual is prevalent, grace is probably diminishing.
01:26:13: Um, you know, there's, there's a danger of that at least. And so these, we get together and there's, there's the steak dinner where you just catch it up.
01:26:19: And then I do about a 30, 20 or 30 minute brief, uh, but intense devotional that is unpacking the next phrase, uh, of either a text or in this case, we're moving through my thesis on, on the book.
01:26:34: Um, and then I, I, I'm quiet because I know I put the nugget out there and if, you know, if buzz is, if, if I'm on the back porch with buzz and, uh, we all know we're going to learn from each other, uh, we're all going to contribute, uh, to the conversation.
01:26:54: Uh, unless there's a baby crib in there, there's a freshness about a baby Christian. That's wonderful to hear from. So there's this fellowship, then there's a teaching time, then there's a very informal discussion about the teaching that is profitable because it's everyone.
01:27:08: And then at some point we usually drift off into a discussion of, uh, you know,
01:27:13: ESPN, but, but, but not before this good fellowship over the spirit of Christ.
01:27:20: Well, we're going to be going to our final break and when we return, hopefully we're going to be actually playing the song we promised to play when
01:27:27: I see you again. And I think that I see a familiar, uh, file that I can play without having a brain aneurysm trying to figure out what to do.
01:27:42: And, uh, we're going to be going to our final break and this is your last opportunity to email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.
01:27:50: Chris Arnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back with Greg Hodge of the
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01:31:18: Chris Zarnes and if you just tuned us in for the last 90 minutes we've had Greg Hodge on the program who is actually related by blood to the great
01:31:29: Charles Hodge one of the Princeton divines of the 19th century and we have been discussing passing on visions of biblical manhood from father to son and we've also been discussing his ministry slash a musical group just like the old
01:31:51: Saturday Night Live skit shimmer is it a floor wax or a dessert topping well we have a a ministry that's also a musical group called
01:32:00: Princeton Revival and we're gonna we're gonna play God willing a song when
01:32:06: I see you again and I know you set it up before in the first hour of the program when we unsuccessfully tried to play the song but if you want to say a few words before we play this again
01:32:20: Greg before we try to play this again. Sure Chris and thanks for playing it it is but it's a softer ballad of ours that is penned in in honor of a friend of ours who died this summer and leaves a widow and two children but so many of us who grieve need to be reminded that we're pressed to pause and there will be a time when we will see that loved one again in the presence of Christ and begin making new memories and we need to cling to that and look forward to that and to encourage each other in that so that's that's what this song is about until or should
01:33:02: I say when I see you again by Princeton Revival I wish you could laugh with me me or maybe walk with me or cry with me anything with me we both know that time with you would make me strong I suppose all heaven can see me that without you now
01:33:47: I'm not half the person that we used to be and I still can't believe it are you really gone now
01:34:01: I I got to find a way to get by without you day by day so I'll keep praying every morning for the hope to face the pain till we put this all behind us when
01:34:24: I see you again and I'll keep living every moment from the memories that remain till we start making new ones when
01:34:37: I see you again it's the best of me when
01:34:51: I can almost touch what I can almost see my breaking heart knows that this is all wrong and so I've got to hold on tight and get by till heaven makes it right so I'll keep praying every morning for the hope to face the pain till we put this all behind us when
01:35:27: I see you again and I'll keep living every moment from the memories that remain till we start making new ones when
01:35:40: I see you again till heaven makes it right
01:36:22: I'll keep praying every morning for the hope to face the pain till we put this all behind us when
01:36:32: I see you again and I'll keep living every moment from the memories that remain till we start making new ones when
01:36:45: I see you again when
01:36:53: I see you again amen that was when
01:37:05: I see you again by Princeton Revival and uh if you just tuned us in uh
01:37:11: Greg Hodge is on the program today has been for the over 90 minutes now and that is his song for a brother in Christ who has departed from this earth and who
01:37:26: Greg longs to see again the other side of glory and I plan on sharing that song with some of my own friends who have lost spouses and loved ones uh very recently in fact one in mind that immediately comes in mind my my friend
01:37:44: Al Stein who used to be on this program quite frequently in the old
01:37:49: Iron Sharpens Iron when I was broadcasting out of WNYG and WGBB in Long Island New York Al Stein was a an assembly of God pastor there locally and in fact an overseer in his denomination and he was a very unique individual he believed firmly and solidly and enthusiastically and zealously in the doctrines of sovereign grace which was not a typical thing in his denomination and was quite a not only a a brilliant man but also a very kind and compassionate and humble man a true heart of a shepherd he is dearly missed he was uh killed in a car accident in January of 2015 and uh right right within the first week of January on an icy road in upstate
01:38:47: New York um but uh he is dearly missed and I'm sure his family would appreciate that song and my my uh dear sister in Christ Jackie who is in Minnesota whose husband just passed away about three weeks ago uh
01:39:03: I'll share that with her as well thank you for that song right very welcome brother I um yeah
01:39:10: I would uh tomorrow is would have been my friend David's uh 53rd birthday and I so uh it's interesting how a song like that uh when it connects it immediately produces names and stories and um impacts of lives and I think that's one one of the great hopes of the gospel uh heaven is not made so that I could be reunited with loved ones but uh lest lest we forget the power of the resurrection uh what a great thing to know that we will see friends we'll see loved ones we'll spend eternity with them and this is a blip and uh so for your friends um and their families uh we would pray for them and also uh for Jennifer and her two children
01:39:59: Sarah and Paul that God would be pleased especially tomorrow as they remember uh
01:40:07: David's birthday that uh they would just be encouraged uh and somehow uh the gospel will continue to turn uh you know what's pretty pretty dark um into gray and eventually the light again as they move forward so thanks for playing that brothers one of the you know one of the things that we're trying to do is take very real themes and put them in the lyrics for substantive discussions and contemplations of truth about Christ and the realities of his kingdom yeah uh as you uh just stated the primary reason for us going to heaven is not to be reunited with uh departed loved ones but it is obviously an important blessing and that's why the apostle
01:40:55: Paul was using the very fact to comfort the church in Thessalonica yeah as one of the primary things he was comforting them with yeah the power of God to give eternal life and uh you know that I I think uh turning back to the the father -son retreat um those are the kinds of things that are they're caught as we talk about it and informally
01:41:25: I don't you know anybody can take three -point notes uh or here's the syllogism on this or that uh and there's a place for that but you know brother
01:41:34: I know you can if you alluded to it earlier there are things that your children caught about the realities of God and his kingdom yes that uh you know the powerpoint show doesn't doesn't get it's in the it's in the voice it's in the story it's truth as it's carried along by your life that's how it gets imparted and that's what we need fathers to be doing with their with their sons and a huge piece of that I think for these angelical third -grade knowledges for men to say
01:42:06: I'm not doing this and that's okay admit the failure admit the need and then let's start praying together and moving forward and realizing that uh this is going to be slow uh for the most part that you know takes time to turn things around and putting on your situation but we can do this we're called to do this uh and and the heart that has turned to God and ask them to help us uh we'll be experiencing growth the word does not return void my lord not experienced that so let's get dad to can start where they are and acknowledge that and pray and ask
01:42:47: God to help them move forward and begin passing up and of course I don't want to exclude the daughters but I think there's a place a great place to begin is for the dads to spend the time with their son uh and rebuilding the fiber of our society by by positing young men who love the lord and live for his glory we do have a listener in cumberland county rb uh who says
01:43:12: I am very opposed to the modern pop psychology that began to contaminate evangelicalism decades ago with the with the self -esteem movement however are we not as christians to find within uh the character traits and other things about us that God has put within us are we not to be grateful to them and find blessings in those traits and things about us that might be otherwise looked upon as a disability or something that is a negative but in reality we can use it for something very positive to the glory of God absolutely boy
01:44:01: I love that comment that is that is that a a young man or young woman I don't know it's just initials rb okay um well
01:44:09: I love that this brother or sister is is wrestling with uh that issue and and uh articulating it that way because there is uh this this tension you know we're told to think little of ourselves and prefer others before us and you know we're ridden with sin and um you know if you and you start envisioning yourself as a worm and a spider um which there's a place for that in terms of perspective but then when we look at the other side uh we're we're going to be judging angels we're uh you know there's this piece of we're in the image of God can we not celebrate that is it not barbara jones has a book uh spiritual depression which is one of the reasons we're such a foreign witness because we walk around looking like the face plate in the book of lamentation uh where's the joy where's the confidence where's the strength and there's a book i don't know if you've seen it chris uh it's alice mcgrath's wife but forgive me i can't recall her name but she has written a book dealing with this very topic uh called the dilemma of self -esteem and um she in it she takes this up how do we have a healthy esteem where we uh you know there's something in us that God loves yeah there's there's we have nothing that's lovable within ourselves innately that would us deserving of heaven but God does love things about us that that we often uh focus upon in a negative way and become uh involved in a pity party and so on exactly and i think there's so much in the conservative church uh there's there's certain strains that kind of lend themselves to that and i just want to remind them that you know you guys need to get prepared because we're in it says that if you make it into heaven uh by God's grace here um you're going to be a person who's enjoying ineffable joy yes you know there are people who just they're afraid of the joy they're afraid of that i don't mean we live like this up this brother sister who wrote in you don't live for that you don't orient your life around your own joy because as if you matter more than God but one of the great is the grand hope the eternal hope not itself being in communion with God forever in his presence how could that not be joyful how could that not be overwhelmingly uh beyond anything we could ever imagine uh the experience of joy utter pure joy and that's what we're to prepare for and our personalities need to be able to contain that so i think you know let's let's rehearse that and don't be afraid of uh you know of the pleasure of uh celebrating
01:47:15: God knowing God living in God's will and and to the degree that our esteem uh is is attached to him and his consequence or the consequence of knowing him i think it's fine to enjoy that anyway i think that book is a great book it's a great read yeah i think that's certainly she says a lot better than i just did that's the way i feel about a lot of people how do they word it so nicely and i i think that uh people when it comes to uh the whole self -esteem movement and they use words like you know pride we should be proud of our race and all that kind of a thing i think what they're doing is they're mistaken it can be a a matter of poor word usage and of course and it can be also the endorsement of sin if you're actually talking about pride because that's supposed to boast in anything about the cross of christ but there's a difference between pride and being unashamed we're not supposed to be above an african -american uh should not be ashamed of being black the only thing that we should be ashamed about is our sin but there's also something to celebrate yes in that God is redeeming us
01:48:29: God is pleasuring himself by redeeming us yeah and and that's to be celebrated that's not to be put down as you say the abuse of it is you know as if i had something to do with it but uh the celebration is a big appropriate christian celebration is yet another piece that i think needs to be balanced out um at least i can imagine myself sitting out there on the floor too much celebration amen but to rejoice you know the apostle paul summed it up so well really when he said you know don't think more of yourselves than you want to but think soberly i don't know if i just quoted king james or what um you know and and he said you know if to the corinthians i believe it was why do you you know if you you what do you have that you have not received if you have not received if you have received it why do you act as if you have not received it and you know i it's it's unfortunate going back to that that uh email the pendulum so often swings the other direction so far and you know we so you go away from the self -esteem movement and then you get into this this other really raunchy thing like woe is me but um right we cannot deny the fact that god has worked in us his it's been grace is but his grace has been at work and and you know quite often um i find i don't you probably discovered this too in discussions with some individuals they try to make you sound like you're somehow very boastful because you've studied the word and you you actually know something and uh well who do you think you are you know yeah yeah there's an um i think that's an insecurity or maybe a pricking in their own conscience that they might do more and yeah at this moment brothers i'm thinking of luther who said at best we're like drunk men on a donkey you know i mean we get it right for a few seconds and then we usually slip off one side of the other and again it points me back to it's not man worth following the title of the book is going to be men worth following we need each other we need the collective yeah if i'm uh there's freedom this can this can be played out a million ways there's certain freedoms that were given in the gospel and some might take those to excess i've done that you know we've all done that or or we go the other extreme and we begin looking at others uh wanting to oppress them with a sense of legalistic uh uh you know guide rule keeping and i find that in the body of in a collective of mature christian men balance can be achieved and uh it drives me back to the need for you know what buzz is saying organic men's groups where there's a you know you're not there because you signed up for 13 weeks you're there because you want to be yes yes and uh the time we have left i want you to really unburden your heart so our listeners have what you most want etched in their hearts and minds before we leave the program and also let them know how they should go about booking the princeton revival what booking the princeton revival would entail and that kind of a thing well uh related to booking piece um if you you can go to uh either greghodge .com
01:52:13: or you can go to princeton revival .com either of those uh we'll get to there and those two websites as we continue to develop them we've probably another month before they're where we want them to be but uh you can go there right now and learn learn about my background and what i'm seeking to do and uh and then you can that'll link up to the band site as well we what what we have right now brother are a set of offerings if you will that uh accommodate anything from me coming in and speaking on the book uh at worship service alone or you can bring in our keyboard player and he and i would would do uh worship a more appropriate version for for a lot of conservative churches uh you know you don't want them wailing around uh you don't want the whole band even even a non -plugged version you can have just keyboards and me uh then we get into the teaching concert which would be like a men's breakfast or uh a men's event um a specific kind of men's event is the one we've been talking about today follow through which is a father -son experience where we're trying to get the fathers and sons to have some good time together and with each other uh and reflecting on the kinds of things we've been talking about today and then there's a conference that we're seeking to do on college campuses and in churches where uh the themes of the book are unpacked in breakaway sessions as well as from the platform as we do a concert in addition to that there are breakaways with the members of the group each take one of the one of the topics and we do either a fireside chat or we have a formal table conversation and a fellowship call or something like that but if you go to the website you can figure out how to do that and i think as far as uh the final words of here's what we want to leave with you if you're a pastor or you're a men's event guy uh you're praying about what what's most important to us uh what is the success criteria for our event well we consider it a success if by the grace of god the men that come to our events leave with two things a definite impulse from the spirit of god to get themselves into the word of god and secondly with some tools and direction as how to start doing that the very next day those are the two things we're looking for in this particular tour and uh you know we're seeing god do that it's it's again his word does not return void so we're uh we are humbled honored excited privileged uh to be doing it and uh lord willing we'll get up in that area before too long and give us all of your contact information the websites the email addresses and so on sure it's greghodge .com
01:55:12: so g -r -e -g -h -o -d -g -e .com or it's princeton revival just like the university uh revival .com
01:55:23: and those two websites will be able to uh they will have links on on booking us or making uh direct contact to uh matthew chapman is booking us and i just uh remembered or should i say just came up with a good way for people to remember how to spell your first name greg it gives glory to god there you go three g's there right amen thank you brother i appreciate it and uh one of the things that in all of this uh uh testosterone driven discussion today uh we uh have to remember as men that uh especially the husbands out there that the calling to love your wife as christ love the church is is something that you're never going to fully attain on this earth but it's something that you should be striving to do and that involves a lot of patience and forgiveness towards the spouse that god has given you and uh wouldn't you say that that is if if if people were to recognize if men were to recognize how much they were have been forgiven themselves by god and how patient god has been with us that would that would be the prevention of a lot of disputes arguments uh separations and divorces in this world wouldn't it i certainly agree brother and it's it is it's by grace when we've taught the session or i have a session with the men recently about uh dealing with wives and family i just wrote across the top of the board holy spirit everything everything has to be uh driven and um energized by the spirit through the word otherwise it's all hopeless and what we can take courage and that he does promise you will fulfill his word amen well it's been such a great pleasure to having you back on the program i look forward to having you back when the album is out uh and we'll be able to play some more music of yours on the show and um want to also remind our listeners of your website it's greg hodge .com
01:57:44: and as i write with that it's dot com right yes greg hodge .com and that's g -r -e -g -g two g's greg hodge .com
01:57:54: and uh want everybody to know that tomorrow we've got two guests that i'm really excited about for the first time ever on iron trip is iron michael kruger president of reform baptist theological seminary in charlotte uh north carolina is going to be on for our first hour talking about the canon of scripture and then richard barcellos very well known in reform baptist circles is going to be on actually richard was on the program many years ago on the old program uh he was involved in a debate on our program but this is the first time he's on the all -new iron sharpens iron so uh mark your calendars for tomorrow four to six p .m