A Sikh/Atheist on Unbelievable, Apologetics Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line. The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us.

Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence. Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed Baptist Church. This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now. It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll-free across the United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five. Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white.

And good morning, welcome to the dividing line on a Tuesday morning. The only dividing line of this week I'm sorry for those of you outside of the United States where you don't have Thanksgiving on Thursdays.

But there isn't anything that we can do about that. And I don't do the dividing line on Thursdays, that's just sort of how it works. So this will be the only one for this week, so we'll have to make it a worth while.

You got a lot of stuff on the plate here eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number I've been rushing a little bit here toward the end got in a little bit later than I normally do and so I'm still queuing stuff up and That's not really the best way of doing things and especially when you get three Phone lines already lit up.

We may not be getting to a lot of our stuff, but I've been listening to back broadcasts of the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley and Yesterday I was listening to what was supposed to be a Program on Sikhism on the Sikhs with a former Sikh now a Christian and With a current Sikh who is actually a retired colonel from US military.

And I thought I you know what I want to try to do in in the hours that I spend on the On the bike is continue my education basically and you can do that if you want to you can educate yourself you can do that kind of thing and That's what I've been doing and so I thought well I don't know.

I really feel a major area of ignorance in the Eastern religions and Sometimes I run into Stuff how Islam has influenced Buddhism and Hinduism and so on so forth. So, you know, here's here's a program that might help me to learn some basic things.

Here's some interaction. Instead of just frustrated me to no end to be honest with you First of all, the Sikh that they had was was well, I'm gonna play a section here. You'll see the former Sikh now Christian unfortunately Evidently only experienced the Anglican Church in England and therefore doesn't like the church.

But like even identify himself as a Christian in that way, which I didn't find to be overly useful at all I Would like to have asked him some more questions. I I seriously had some concerns as to his orthodoxy in regards the person of Christ, but It never really got to that level of discussion.

But as I was listening at one point it struck me that the Sikh was right and the Christians were wrong in this particular argument and and it was because similarly just now I was listening as writing to a discussion on Buddhism on the program and And while I appreciated many of the things that the Christians said It was a constant the constant theme that kept coming up in my mind was This is so focused upon man and the gospel is viewed so much as man's Search for happiness what what Jesus will do for you to make you a better person.

That Christianity ends up sounding like just one amongst many and It's so bothers me to hear that, you know here You've got this nice Buddhist guy. And and once he finally it normally happens toward the end of the program that you know all the niceness that the Brits put on at the beginning of the program finally wears off at the end as we're gonna hear here in a second, but The the the Buddhist showed clearly that he really didn't know anything about Christianity at all.

And the the the very straw man view he had of Christianity and well, you know You believe in the supernatural being and you get everything you want. That's not Christianity has nothing to do with Christianity.

But when you're when you're presenting Christianity as what it does for you and you start off with what's your personal experience type stuff? That's what you end up with and I was just so thankful I knew that if I was in that situation my response would have been well, you know what we've got the wrong focus here.

We're focused upon us and The gospel is focused upon God. This is what God is doing. And this is how God is glorifying himself and he glorifies himself by coming into his own creation and by redeeming a people unto himself and he does so Perfectly and without fail.

This is all about God's glory. This is God's purposes and I really think we need to be presenting to the people a God worthy of worship. I Think a lot of lost men recognize that a a wish fulfillment device in the sky is not worthy of worship.

Why why why not look for something other? When all you're presenting in Christianity is a wish fulfillment device and that's not who God is. You can become a believer and God ain't gonna give you anything that your current heart wants.

He's gonna change your heart until you want holiness and what's right in his sight. But that doesn't you know sell real well and it makes me really weird and things like that so, you know, I understand that but That that's that.

Yeah that that that that came up. So I'm on him before I get to our calls. We've got to talk to Bill and Richard. You got one line open I Want to play part of this? Dialogue toward the end with this seek.

Now. The seek is more of it. I I think you might be able to figure out where he's coming from before he gets there. But listen when he eventually identifies One of the organizations he's involved with those of you who've been who've known the divine line for a long time ago.

Oh really but the issue of God's judgment and wrath and what happens in the Old Testament comes up and sadly the Christians completely miss it and And well, you'll see let's I'll comment as we go along but here's from I forget when this one I think this was in 2008 maybe I think it was that far back, but it's the unbelievable radio program Justin Briley over in over in London and.

Sikh Critique of the Old Testament God and the Gospel of God's Glory

This is on seekers that we can have a relationship with this God.

I don't think that's the kind of God you're talking about is a TV. I think you just said it. I do. Mr. Mr. Joe is. What he's doing is sort of harmonizing two different versions. And I you know, he's not the only one.

I think I was raised that way too. Except that when I began to critically examine these scriptures. That's when I realized let me give you a little update on page 2021 if I hope I'm right here. Nanak has written where he has rejected the biblical God Biblical God or Semitic God Vedic gods.

He rejected it question to me is to mr. Joel and all he has to do is read the Old Testament to see the quality or the Unquality or input of biblical God. Why would anybody want to go there? Why would anybody want to be with him?

I Think these are very serious questions from a skeptic from a Sikh That didn't need to be answered properly and I unfortunately. For all these years. I've been doing the biblical debate. Nobody has come forward to give a rational answer.

The God which is in the Old Testament and which is that is the God? In the Bible. How do we accept that for what is written in it and I sure don't want to go into right now.

Unless I'm asked to do I mean, I mean this this goes beyond just Sikhism. I mean, this is a big question for people of.

Remember Nanak rejected these ideas.

Hmm, I mean I was I was reading just yesterday the sort of if you like Deconversion testimony of someone who who has abandoned Christianity recently for the very reason that The JGV is talking about here.

They couldn't reconcile what they saw of God in the Old Testament with the New Testament the God of love. And yet there are you know, undoubtedly some passages in the Old Testament which which seem to speak of wrath and Judgments and things that Maybe people do have a problem with.

You know. Harmonizing and if it's equals to say how how can I but want to be harmonized, you know. Come into union with this God if this is the God you believe in. Run. And what would you say to them?

Yeah, the God of the Old Testament is incredibly wrathful wiping out whole people wiping out whole villages telling his People to wipe out entire tribes. God in the Old Testament is incredibly wrathful.

And I don't have a definitive answer. JB. You can add me to your long list of people who don't have a definitive answer for you because I don't and Really? I think there was a definitive answer. We'd have won by now and you could have had it from me.

But but that doesn't miss negate the fact that in scripture in the New Testament and the yearning all the way through the Old Testament to the new New Testament that the point of the relationship between human and God is about Reuniting something that has been fractured about bringing back together a relationship which has been sundered in some way and Therefore that's the purpose of the very real presence of Jesus is a very real human being on earth.

Working out a very real sacrifice on our behalf because we're just simply not able to do it and I agree God is transcendent. The God of Sikhism is transcendent and the God. The Bible is a transcendent God.

God is bigger to quote doctor. Who is like the universe is bigger than you can possibly imagine it bigger than the biggest biggest big thing? You can possibly imagine and that's why we as human beings can never know God on our own.

We can never work our way to knowing God on our own and we can never please God on our own. Which is why God himself or herself again had to make Himself present and known to human beings through incarnation through Presence as a real human being amongst other real human beings in the incarnation of Jesus.

That's why and I think that's the hope that as a Christian you have to offer to seek that this salvation. You're trying to work out this being lost being saved being found in God is only possible. Absolutely through.

Jesus do you have any in a sense desire to be in a sense then reunited with God? GB is that is that something that makes sense to you as a as a desire that that that runners talking about. Well.

Again, I sure have no desire to have anything to do with the biblical God. I'll be honest with you. To me is very unethical and immoral figure now. When it comes to New Testament Obviously, there's some changes there.

Okay. Now listen to this listen to this man.

Who just. I have no desire for the biblical God at all, which is the natural man. No question about it here. Listen to the natural man provide a corrective to the Christian who has just said oh, yeah, well, yeah that Old Testament God's pretty wrathful and wife of people I Don't know.

I just go with Jesus. Listen to the natural man who can read enough of Scripture to figure out what the real story is.

But I have read New Testament so many times so many times. I've sat down with this with the theologians of different variety. I Cannot find any evidence where the God depicted in the New Testament is different from the one in the Old Testament.

That's right. I'll be honest with you. I cannot find that evidence. To me it's a continuation of the same God. Now put it in the Old Testament in the New Testament. Well, I've had it. I've had it described now before Justin goes.

Huh? He's exactly right. I Mean talk about basic Christianity 101. Who is the God. Who is God the father? But the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. There's there's no difference. And and if you know your Bible Then you know that Chesed loving-kindness appears more often in the Old Testament than agape does in the new and.

You know. There are all sorts of sections about the wrath of God in the New Testament and there are all sorts of sections about the love of God in the old. It it it only can feed upon abject ignorance of the Bible.

To for people to get away with the. Well, yeah, I just said my yeah the guy the Old Testament I'm sure. What doing him, you know. And and.

But it goes in this way that perhaps the New Testament is in a sense the The lens through which you view the Old Testament. So Jesus is if you like our lens for Understanding God are right and what we sometimes have as pictures in the Old Testament.

Which if you don't fully do justice to who God is we? We understand that more fully in the revelation of Jesus Christ. Now I suppose for you that might be too much of a sort of wishy-washy theological answer.

I mean, you know, I respect the way it's not that you know, I mean just in what you told me. Oh wonder, you know, there's a whole bunch of good Christians who tell me the same thing. I Respect that view.

I just only tell them but understand me understand my friends and we who who are truly Truly devote time to study the Bible. We do not find that coming across to us.

Do you not find the figure of Jesus at least is a Kind of just representation of of what a good God would look like in the sense that Jesus did You know would live out a life of goodness love humility.

Service, etc. Well again, if you use those words those good righteous words, I have no problem with it. But again when I read the Bible, of course Jesus figure of Jesus looks better comparatively to his father biblical God but definitely there are a number of teachings that Jesus has uttered in the Bible that That should be debated because they do not reflect those righteous values.

What kind of teachings did you have in mind? Well, I give you if you prefer I I can say a few things if that's okay. Yeah, go ahead. All right, let's just hold it for example I'm only gonna give you a few.

Okay. Okay. Well, we'd like Go back to Matthew 10 35. 36 For I for I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the mother against his against her mother and the daughter against a daughter-in-law against.

Okay, now be thinking about that text. It is one that is used often if you're gonna ever say anything about the moral teachings of Jesus. You better be ready for Jesus assertion that our love for him must eclipse any other Relationship that we have.

And if you don't have a divine Jesus and if you don't again have a theocentric gospel. Where this is what God is doing. It's not just about making us nicer secular humanists with a religious bent But actually conforming us the image of Christ if you don't have that as the center of your entire perspective.

You're not going to be able to offer much of response to these texts. But we haven't gotten the point where this guy mentions. He's already mentioned these biblical scholars.

He says with it'll be interesting. We find out who that is and a man's soul shall be. They of his own household if a man come to me and hate. Not as father mother and wife children brother and sister.

Yeah, and His own life also. He cannot be my disciple. I have serious problems Luke. I think 1927. Yeah, I don't have the exact code here where he's asking His enemy is to be brought or not his followers brought an end clip and killed.

I think that's in the context of a these codes are there and simply make no sense.

Okay, they make no sense unless you see who Jesus is and that Jesus someday will rule and reign and his enemies will be destroyed. And Christians are not willing to present the whole Jesus if all they want is the is the is Jesus meek and mild Jesus who will make you a better nicer person if you don't want the Jesus of the book of Revelation.

Flaming fire Sword coming out of his mouth judging his people destroying his enemies if you if you want a minimized Jesus. Hey, there's a lots of smart people out there go. I isn't this your book and it's called the Bible here.

There's all this stuff here in the Bible you don't seem to be believing and Once they demonstrate your inconsistencies. What do you got left? You can't edit the gospel down and keep it in any way shape or form Consistent or meaningful.

You just can't do it. Okay. I mean the second one.

I know is in the context of a parable that Jesus is.

Understand that and we have gone through this. We debate on these things. There are. I understand they could be a matter of interpretation. Let's let's allow. See.

Runner. At least to have an attempt at maybe dealing with the first one. You brought up this passage where Jesus does make these what on the face of it sound like quite. If you like on family oriented statements about setting brother against sister and mother against daughter, etc.

I mean, do you think that there's a Interpretation or a way of taking that kind of statement from Jesus that that helps us to look at it.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised that Jimmy can't see the wood for the trees here because There's there is The whole world and the way people go about living and we all live our lives and so on and if there's no problem as Long as we all live the same way pretty much as everybody else does there's no problem.

It's when you stand out when you're suddenly discreet when you're suddenly separate from people that people begin to see that there is a That you're different and then it's at that point that you then start paying a price for being different.

It's at that point that then there is a cost to the way that you yourself choose to live. And I think again here between the gurus and the teaching of the New Testament. It's certainly the teaching of Jesus.

It's there's no difference here. There is a price to be paid for living a proper life an upright life a Righteous life and that is the fact that other people won't necessarily like it. And when Jesus says I've come to set a sword between Families and so on he's recognizing that there will be a price to be paid for being a true Seek a true disciple of his that that families won't necessarily like it that the authorities around you Won't necessarily like it that the world at large won't necessarily like it because you will be rejecting Values which everyone takes as readiness and help the world to just tick along normally except from the Bible's point of view the way The world ticks on normally isn't right and therefore there is a right way of living and a price to be paid for that right way.

Of living I mean just as an aside. How did your family respond to your becoming a Christian yourself Rana?

Oh, well, yeah, and there were a little horrified, but I was so perverse. So it was quite nice to have me behaving myself for a change. What they didn't like is the fact that becoming Christian to their meant becoming white and.

And I can now having been a Christian since in 1980 I can see their argument and myself I would Share their argument that their fear because to a large extent the church is certainly in in this country.

And in the West wider Western world in asking people to be saved essentially want people to become like them. Not just like them. They want them to become white they want. In fact when I became a Christian They told me to throw away all my Indian music Not go to family events and so on in case I was somehow tainted by their presence.

Which is absolutely absurd and I realized that there were people who knew far less than I did about my very own faith in My very own family and culture telling me what I should do about it, and they were obviously ridiculous.

Yeah, so obviously you've you've learned with experience the as you say that that difficult process of Separating the culture the cultural manifestation of Christianity from its as it were its core central person.

That is Jesus and and what he taught and which is where the Western churches singularly failed. It seems. Yeah.

And and I'm sure GB would would agree to such to a great extent with with those claims. But. But GB I mean in terms of the that passage and the way that. Okay, but I mean I've got to agree with Rana that.

It seems a bit like you're picking on. I mean given given the general theme of the New Testament and what Jesus preaches. Can we not assume that in a sense? He's simply using a literary device of hyperbole to put across a point.

I mean is it we're not allowing these or do we have to literally read it that Jesus is encouraging violence in family.

Speaking his he looks better than his father. I did say that. Okay, but I want trying to tell you there is a serious problems Within the writings of the New Testament for example Luke 1927. Now you give me you tell me what it means and.

As for those who would not have me be king over them Bring them before me and slay them. I Sure would like to hear what you guys have to say, okay.

Well now can we just give us the context of this. Is this the parable of 1927?

And we have in within my circles and let me give you. I'm a member of biblical Aaron. See it's a group.

Group of scholars who study the Bible. There you go. There you go Biblical Aaron see a first time ever heard term scholars ever used but biblical Aaron see good old Dennis McKenzie Who I engaged back in the 1980s in fact we had him on the program in the 1980s and Late 1980s, but very early on back in the days when biblical Aaron see was a three-page mimeographed monthly mail-out and I remember demonstrating to Dennis McKenzie that his argument that the Bible is contradicting itself because It used murder and kill in the King James Version in Matthew and Romans in translating a portion of the Ten Commandments I point out to him excuse me, but the underlying Greek phrase is the same thing you're you're picking on English translation.

That was not consistent in its rendering. He would not accept it. He is the kind of atheist once he says it's an error. He will never admit that it's not and So here you have the same group, which of course is now online a group of scholars right who This this Sikh is and they're they're radical atheists, you know, that's that's that's the only place the only direction this fellow's Coming from is he's a part of but still When he asked what Luke 19 is about why can't anybody give an answer?

Well, I can't just straightforward. Yep Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords and there's gonna be a day when Jesus is going to rule and reign and his Enemies those who refuse to bow the knee before him will be punished.

But you see in our in our culture Punished no, I don't want to say that. I mean people in the nightlight like that. Well, you know what? That's the biblical message and you know what? I think Honest people people in whom the Spirit of God is working.

Anyways need to hear that. They need to hear that and if you draw back from that, I don't think you're doing them any favors at all. Any favors at all eight seven seven seven five three, three, three, four one.

Let's start getting to our phone calls here and let's talk with Bill down Dallas. Hi Bill. I'm sorry. All right.

All right. I had Jones speakerphone. Sorry about that. That's all right. How are you doing? Just fine. Okay, I'm calling on the coming of honey. Um, I listened to In February with a gentleman off of the Puritan board kicks come up a couple of times on pyramid a couple of places.

So I wanted to ask you if you knew about something and if you would attach any significance to it. Are you familiar with Maynard's book history of the debate over first John five seven eight? Uh-huh that the Common Johannium was invoked at Carthage.

No, it's assuming of course that any language That speaks of the three and one is is in reference to the common Johannium and you have to demonstrate that any citation is actually Coming from that particular text further any patristic source has to be examined as well to see If it has come down to us without alteration and change over time, too so Again when we that particular book I think is an excellent demonstration of the imbalance That a person can develop on one particular text and when it comes to the common Johannium, it's it's really simple if the common Johannium was original then we have no reason to believe that we have any Confidence whatsoever in the textual Background in the New Testament.

I could never defend it again. I would stop defending it I would stop doing apologetics if it was if it was original and it's just as simple because if an entire theologically relevant centrally relevant theological text can simply disappear from the Greek manuscript tradition gone unknown for for for Two Centuries on end in the Greek manuscript tradition Then we have no reason to believe that that has not happened all over the place.

There are numerous texts in the New Testament have better textual evidence than the common Johannium that none of these people including mr Maynard would ever suggest to be placed into the text in New Testament.

And if we were to place them in the text in New Testament once again, we would have a new testament. It looks very very different Than the Texas Receptus that all of these guys for some odd interesting reason end up wanting to defend and so It's real simple either the common Johannium is original and therefore we'd have no idea what the New Testament is originally about or it is not original and there are certain people that are just simply extremely imbalanced who want to try to defend the TR as the the final well a Actually, I can't even say the TR because the first two editions of Erasmus which are considered part of the TR At least our tradition did not contain it but the later forms of the TR contain it and I think that's really the driving force behind those who wish to attempt to establish this particular.

This particular reading so more eclectic. Texts critically, you know scripts and I've seen this argument tried to be invoked to that. Well, it's in so many copies of the Latin and goes way back. So against first Timothy 316.

Would think so, but you have just put your finger on the heart and the beating heart of King James. Only ism and TR only ism in essence and that is an inconsistent application of methodologies, which makes the system Absolutely indefensible in any type of debate context.

It is it there is an overriding Desire and we're going to use any arguments we can to defend these things. But don't force us to be consistent. And yeah, we're gonna look at all these Latin manuscripts here.

But when they go against our TR then all of a sudden we become silent and you're exactly right. But most people don't realize that those variations are there. They don't see what you've seen.

Well, a lot of most folks are granted haven't looked into. I've spent, you know, 12 years next semester. Which I figure will be fun, but that's where he has made the comment that every anything Methodologically or the King James only view is taken if you apply it consistently by the other hand.

That's exactly right. And that's why when Dan and I did the King James only program on the the John Ankerberg program Many many moons ago we could tag-team people because we're being consistent with one another.

We didn't. We never talked before that program I had never met Dan before but we didn't have to because we're using the same consistent methodology and. So we could tag-team the same people make the same points without any Preparation beforehand simply because we're being consistent.

All right. One other real quick, you know go on that on the Latin slanted language like Metz course the you know. They na 27 of no, you know, they don't tell you what's in all 5 ,000. You know, they're just general and the quote-unquote important one.

Well, a lot of that work hasn't even been finished yet.

I mean think of what Dan's trying to do if you heard the program and when we add them on a couple months ago you know the whole reason for their work there is to attempt to Do that collation work to provide the resources where so many of those manuscripts could be collated.

But I'm up against my break, but let me just mention this real real quickly. One of the fellows on a Puritan board who responded to what I mentioned about Revelation 16 as you may recall made reference to a a Latin commentary on Revelation that had the TR reading and the whole idea was well, you know what they may have had stuff we don't have anymore.

So now you have disappearing sources as well and the Just the reach that you have to make to try to come up with Something over here something over there that you would never do anywhere else as long as it's not in the TR is the clearest Demonstration of the inconsistency of the position being presented, but hey Bill enjoy Dan Wallace's class and say hi for me.

All right. All right. God bless. Thank you. All righty. Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one. We're gonna take our break be right back with Richard and Sean and your phone call.

Alpha and Omega ministries is pleased to introduce the Christmas morning CD by Todd Lindstrom. Passion and peace are what sets Todd's music apart from others. These twelve instrumental favorites will bless and inspire you as you entertain guests and spend a Christmas morning with your family.

You can find this beautiful music that celebrates the birth of our Lord in the bookstore at a omen. The history of the Christian Church pivots on the doctrine of justification by faith. Once the core of the Reformation the church today often ignores or misunderstands this foundational doctrine.

In his book The God who justifies theologian James White calls believers to a fresh appreciation of Understanding of and dedication to the great doctrine of justification and then provides an exegesis of the key scripture texts on this theme.

Justification is the heart of the gospel in today's culture where tolerance is the new absolute. James White proclaims with passion the truth and centrality of the doctrine of justification by faith. Dr. J. Adams says I lost sleep over this book.

I simply couldn't put it down. James White writes the way an exegetically and theologically oriented pastor appreciates. This is no book for casual reading. There is solid meat throughout an outstanding contribution in every sense of the words The God who justifies by dr. James White get your copy today at a omen org.

You Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce. In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man-centered self-help program. The need for a no-nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater.

I am convinced that a great many go to church every Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin. Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses.

Man is sinful and God is holy. That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior? We are to come before the Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well. Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace.

Thank you.

And welcome back, let's continue with our phone calls, let's talk with Richard in Chicago. Hi Richard. Hello. Good. Yes, sir, okay. Well interesting question. Obviously, there is a regulative principle of worship most Reformed Baptists would would hold to that similar to many of their orthodox Presbyterian brethren.

I have not seen any erosion of that. Was there something you had specifically in mind?

Well, I reminded of how he points out instances of how it is being eroded in Presbyterian.

Well, he wouldn't ever refer to us as a Reformed Baptist. He doesn't believe that's a Reformed at all. I'll leave that to his loss. But anyway, I Can't comment Given that I've I've not looked at what examples he might have given.

I mean clearly you see the movement toward a lessened view of worship that can be found in Certain elements. Well, obviously you look at the PC USA and and you've got a loss of the the Christian faith in a large portion of it, but Even in some PCA churches there is a move toward that direction whenever you have a a denomination that's sort of in the middle Between the extremes you're going to have tendencies going both directions you're gonna have divisions as there is in the PCA between the conservatives and liberals and conservatives and those going for the seeker friendly American model etc, etc.

And so there's a battle that goes on there and You know, I think there's always that tendency I think I think it's a human tendency to look down the road and see the megachurch and go. Well, you know if we just change this this and this and those things really matter and and so on and so forth so I think every generation has to Rethink and Recommit itself to the the fundamental foundational Truths that give identity to that that particular denomination a particular church and.

So P since you're not framing it in terms of being confessional you might. Temple you you have John frame saying that We could implement liturgical dance. I don't think he's in favor of but well.

I personally would never want to see John frame doing liturgical dance, but nobody would ever want to see me doing liturgical dance either, but I Think there are venues a little bit better than than this one for for some of those discussions I I know what you're talking about, but it's I'll be honest with you I'm significantly more focused upon apologetics and issues in regards to Rome and Islam and things like that.