A Sikh/Atheist on Unbelievable, Apologetics Calls

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr White call now at six. Oh two nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States It's one eight seven seven seven five three three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James white And good morning. Welcome to the dividing line on a

Tuesday morning. The only dividing line of this week I'm sorry for those of you outside of the United States where you don't have

Thanksgiving on Thursdays But there isn't anything that we can do about that And I don't do the dividing line on Thursdays, that's just sort of how it works

So this will be the only one for this week, so we'll have to make it worthwhile You got a lot of stuff on the plate here eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the phone number

I've been rushing a little bit here toward the end got in a little bit later than I normally do and so I'm still queuing stuff up and That's not really the best way of doing things and especially when you get three

Phonelines already lit up. We may not be getting to a lot of our stuff, but I've been listening to back broadcasts of the unbelievable radio program with Justin Briarley and Yesterday I was listening to what was supposed to be a

Program on Sikhism on the Sikhs with a former

Sikh now a Christian and With a current Sikh who is actually a retired colonel from US military

And I thought I you know what I want to try to do in in the hours that I spend on the

On the bike is continue my education basically and you can do that if you want to you can educate yourself you can do that kind of thing and That's what

I've been doing and so I thought well. You know I don't know I really feel a major area of ignorance in the

Eastern religions and Sometimes I run into Stuff how

Islam has influenced Buddhism and Hinduism and so on so forth So you know here's here's a program that might help me to learn some basic things here are some interaction

Instead of just frustrated me to no end to be honest with you first of all the Sikh that they had was was

Well, I'm gonna play a section here. You'll see The former Sikh now

Christian unfortunately Evidently only experienced the Anglican Church in England and therefore doesn't like the church

But like even identify himself as a Christian in that way, which I didn't find to be overly useful at all

I Would like to have asked him some more questions that I seriously had some concerns as to his orthodoxy in regards the person of Christ, but It never really got to that level of discussion

But as I was listening at one point It struck me that the Sikh was right and the

Christians were wrong in this particular argument, and and it was because similarly just now

I was listening as writing to a discussion on Buddhism on the program and While I appreciated many of the things that the

Christians said It was a constant the constant theme that kept coming up in my mind was

This is so focused upon man, and the gospel is viewed so much as man's

Search for happiness what what Jesus will do for you to make you a better person that Christianity ends up sounding like just one amongst many and It's so bothers me to hear that you know here

You've got this nice Buddhist guy And and once he finally it normally happens for at the end of the program that you know all the niceness that the

Brits put on at the beginning of the program finally wears off at the end as we're gonna hear here in a second, but The the

Buddhist showed clearly that he really didn't know anything about Christianity at all and The the the very straw man view he had of Christianity and well

You know you believe in the supernatural being and you get everything you want That's not Christianity has something to do with Christianity But when you're when you're presenting

Christianity as what it does for you, and you start off with what's your personal experience type stuff

That's what you end up with and I was just so thankful I Knew that if I was in that situation my response would have been well.

You know what we've got the wrong focus here We're focused upon us and the gospel is focused upon God this is what

God is doing, and this is how God is glorifying himself and He glorifies himself by coming into his own creation and by redeeming a people unto himself

And he does so perfectly and without fail. This is all about God's glory This is God's purposes, and I really think we need to be presenting to the people a

God worthy of worship I Think a lot of lost men recognize that a a wish fulfillment device in the sky is not worthy of worship

Why why why not look for something other? When all you're presenting in Christianity is a wish fulfillment device

And that's not who God is you can become a believer and God ain't gonna Give you anything that your current heart wants he's gonna change your heart until you want holiness, and what's right in his sight but that doesn't you know sell real well and Makes me really weird and things like that, so I'm you know

I understand that but That that's that yeah that that that came up So I'm on him before I get to our calls with dr..

Bill and Richard you got one line open I Want to play part of this?

Dialogue toward the end with this seek now the seek is more of it III think you might be able to figure out where he's coming from before he gets there, but listen when he eventually identifies

One of the organizations he's involved with those of you who've been who've known the divine line for a long time ago.

Oh really But the issue of God's judgment and wrath and what happens in the

Old Testament comes up and sadly the Christians completely miss it and Well you'll see let's

I'll comment as we go along, but here's from I forget when this one. I think this was in 2008 maybe

I think it was that far back, but it's the unbelievable radio program Justin Briley over in over in London and This is on seekers that we can have a relationship with this

God I don't think that's the kind of God you're talking about is it GB. I think you just said it there.

I do mr. Mr.. Joe is What he's doing is sort of harmonizing two different versions

And I you know he's not the only one I think I was raised that way too Except that when

I began to critically examine these scriptures That's when I realized let me give you a little update on page 2021 if I hope

I'm right here Nanak has written where he has rejected the biblical God Biblical God or Semitic God Vedic gods he rejected it

So so question to me is to mr. And all he has to do is read the

Old Testament to see the quality or the unquality or input of Biblical God why would anybody want to go there?

Why would anybody want to be with him? I? Think these are very serious questions from a skeptic from a seek

That didn't need to be answered properly, and I unfortunately for all these years

I've been doing the biblical debate nobody has come forward to give a rational answer

The God which is in the Old Testament, which is that is the God? in the

Bible How do we accept that for what is written in it, and I sure don't want to go into right now

Unless I'm asked to do. I mean I mean this this goes beyond to seek ism. I mean this is a big question for people

Remember Nanak rejected these ideas hmm. I mean I was I was reading just yesterday the sort of if you like a deconversion testimony of someone who who has abandoned

Christianity recently for the very reason that The the JGB is talking about here

They couldn't reconcile what they saw of God in the Old Testament with the New Testament the

God of love and yet there are You know Undoubtedly some passages in the

Old Testament, which which seem to speak of wrath and Judgments and things that Maybe people are do have a problem with You know harmonizing and if it's equals to say how how can

I but want to be harmonized? You know come into union with this God if this is the God you believe in Rana.

What would you say to them? Yeah, the God of the Old Testament is incredibly wrathful Wiping out whole people wiping out whole villages telling his

People to wipe out entire tribes God in the Old Testament is incredibly wrathful And I don't have a definitive answer

JBR You can add me to your long list of people who don't have a definitive answer for you because I don't and it really

I Think there was a definitive answer We'd have won by now, and you could have had it from me, but but that doesn't miss negate the fact that In Scripture in the

New Testament and the yearning all the way through the Old Testament to the New Testament the point of the relationship between human and God is about reuniting something that has been fractured about bringing back together a relationship which has been sundered in some way and Therefore that's the purpose of the very real presence of Jesus is a very real human being on earth

Working out a very real Sacrifice on our behalf because we're just simply not able to do it, and I agree

God is Transcendent the God of Sikhism is transcendent and the garden the

Bible is a transcendent God God is bigger To quote dr. Who is like the universe is bigger than you can possibly imagine it bigger than the biggest biggest big thing you can possibly imagine and That's why we as human beings can never know

God on our own We can never work our way to knowing God on our own and we can never please

God on our own Which is why God himself or herself again had to make himself present and known to human beings through incarnation through Presence as a real human being amongst other real human beings in the incarnation of Jesus That's why and I think that's the hope that as a

Christian You have to offer to seek that this salvation you're trying to work out this being lost being saved being found in God Is only possible absolutely through Jesus do you have any in a sense desire to be in a sense then?

reunited with God GB is that is that something that makes sense to you as a as a desire that that that runners talking about well

Again I sure have no desire to have anything to do with the biblical God. I'll be honest with you

To me is very unethical and immoral figure now when it comes to New Testament Oh, obviously there are some changes there okay now listen to this listen to this man

Who just I have no desire for the biblical God at all which is the natural man? No question about it here listen to the natural man provide a corrective to the

Christian who has just said oh, yeah, well yeah that Old Testament God's pretty wrathful and wife of people

I Don't know. I just go with Jesus Listen to the natural man who can read enough of Scripture to figure out what the real story is

But I have read New Testament so many times so many times I've sat down with this with the theologians of different variety

I Cannot find any evidence where the God depicted in the New Testament is different from the one in the

Old Testament That's right. I'll be honest with you. I cannot find that evidence to me.

It's a continuation of the same God Now put it in the Old Testament in the New Testament Well, I've had it.

I've had it described now before Justin goes on. He's exactly right I Mean talk about basic Christianity 101

Who is the God who is God the father, but the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob There's no difference and and if you know your

Bible then you know that Chesed loving -kindness appears more often in the Old Testament than agape does in the new and You know there are all sorts of sections about the wrath of God in the

New Testament And there are all sorts of sections about the love of God in the old It it it only can feed upon abject ignorance of the

Bible To for people to get away with the well. Yeah, I just said my yeah, the guy the old test

I'm not sure what doing him you know and and But it goes in this way that perhaps the

New Testament is in a sense the The lens through which you view the Old Testament so Jesus is if you like our lens for Understanding God are right and what we sometimes have as pictures in the

Old Testament Which if you don't fully do justice to who God is we we understand that more fully in the revelation of Jesus Christ Now I suppose for you that might be too much of a sort of wishy -washy theological answer

I mean, you know I respect the way. It's not that you know I mean Justin what you told me I wonder you know there's a whole bunch of good

Christians will tell me the same thing I Respect that view I just only tell them but understand me understand my friends and we who

Who are truly devote time to study the Bible we do not find that coming across to us?

do you not find the figure of Jesus at least is a Kind of just representation of of what a good

God would look like in the sense that Jesus did You know would live out a life of goodness love humility service etc

Well again if you use those words those good righteous words I have no problem with it, but again when

I read the Bible of course Jesus figure of Jesus looks better comparatively to his father biblical

God But definitely there are a number of teachings that Jesus has uttered in the

Bible that That should be debated because they do not reflect those righteous values.

What kind of teachings did you have in mind? Well, I give you if you prefer. I I can say a few things if that's okay.

Yeah, go ahead all right Let's just hold it. Just let's hold it for example I'm only gonna give you a few okay, okay?

Well, we don't have time for example for go back to Matthew 10 35 36 For I for I am come to set a man at variance against his father and the mother against his against her mother and the daughter against a daughter -in -law against her mother -in -law

Okay, now be thinking about that text It is one that is used often if you're gonna ever say anything about the moral teachings of Jesus you better be ready for Jesus Assertion that our love for him must eclipse any other

Relationship that we have and if you don't have a divine Jesus, and if you don't again have a theocentric gospel

Where this is what God is doing? It's not just about making us nicer secular humanists with a religious bent

But actually conforming us the image of Christ if you don't have that as the center of your entire perspective

You're not going to be able to offer much of response to these texts But we haven't gotten the point where this guy mentions.

He's already mentioned these biblical scholars He says with it'll be interesting we find out who the box and a man's soul shall be

They of his own household if a man come to me and hate Not his father mother and wife children brother and sister.

Yeah, and His own life also. He cannot be my disciple. I have serious problems

Luke I think 1927 Yeah, I don't have the exact code here where he's asking

His enemy is to be brought or not his followers brought an end clip and killed I think that's in the context of a

Okay, they make no sense unless you see who Jesus is and that Jesus someday will rule and reign and his enemies will be destroyed and If Christians are not willing to present the whole

Jesus If all they want is the is the is Jesus meek and mild

Jesus who will make you a better nicer person if you don't want the Jesus of the book of Revelation flaming fire

To have sword coming out of his mouth judging his people destroying his enemies if you if you want a minimized

Jesus Hey, there's a lots of smart people out there go eyes. This is your book and it's called the

Bible here There's all this stuff here in the Bible. You don't seem to be believing and Once they demonstrate your inconsistencies, what do you got left?

You can't edit the gospel down and keep it in any way shape or form Consistent or meaningful you just can't do it.

Okay. I mean the second one I know is in the context of a parable that Jesus is And we have gone through this we debate on these things

There are I understand there could be a matter of interpretation. Let's let's allow see

Runner at least to have an attempt at maybe dealing with the first one you brought up This passage where Jesus does make these what on the face of it sound like quite

If you like on family oriented statements about setting brother against sister and mother against daughter, etc

I mean, do you think that there's a Interpretation or a way of taking that kind of statement from Jesus that that helps us to look at it yeah,

I'm a little surprised that Jimmy can't see the wood for the trees here because the there is

The whole world and the way people go about living and we all live our lives and so on and if there's no problem as Long as we all live the same way pretty much as everybody else does there's no problem

It's when you stand out when you're suddenly Discrete when you're suddenly separate from people that people begin to see that there is a that you're different And then it's at that point that you then start paying a price for being different It's at that point that then there is a cost to the way that you

Yourself choose to live and I think again here between the gurus and the teaching of the New Testament It's certainly the teaching of Jesus.

It's there's there's no difference here there is a price to be paid for living a proper life an upright life a

Righteous life and that is the fact that other people won't necessarily like it And when Jesus says I've come to set a sword between families and so on He's recognizing that there will be a price to be paid for being a true seek a true disciple of his

That that families won't necessarily like it that the authorities around you won't necessarily like it that the world at large won't necessarily like it because you

Will be rejecting Values which everyone takes as read and as and help the world to just tick along normally except from the

Bible's point of view the way The world ticks on normally isn't right and therefore there is a right way of living and a price to be paid for that right way

Of living I mean just as an aside. How did your family respond to your becoming a Christian? Yourself Rana, I will see and there were a little horrified, but I was so perverse

So it was quite nice to have me behaving myself for a change what they didn't like is the fact that becoming

Christian to them meant becoming white and And I can now have him being a

Christian since in 1980. I can see their argument and myself I would Share their argument that their fear because to a large extent the church is certainly in in this country

And in the West wider Western world in asking people to be saved essentially want people to become like them

Not just like them. They want them to become white they want in fact when I became a Christian They told me to throw away all my

Indian music Not go to family events and so on in case I was somehow tainted by their presence

Which is absolutely absurd and I realized that there were people who knew far less than I did about my very own faith in My very own family and culture telling me what

I should do about it, and they were obviously ridiculous yeah, so obviously you've you've learned with experience the as you say that that difficult process of Separating the culture the cultural manifestation of Christianity from its as it were its core central person

That is Jesus and and what he taught Which is where the Western Church has singularly failed it seems yeah, and and I'm sure

GB would would agree To such to a great extent with with those claims, but but GB.

I mean in terms of the passage and the way that Okay, but I mean

I've got to agree with Rana that it seems a bit like you're picking on and kind of I Mean given given the general theme of the

New Testament and what Jesus preaches Can we not assume that in a sense? He's simply using a literary device of hyperbole to put across a point

I mean Is it we're not allowing Jesus or do we have to literally read it that Jesus is encouraging violence in family?

Speaking his he looks better than his father. I did say that Okay, but I want trying to tell you there is a serious problems

Within the writings of the New Testament for example Luke 1927 now you give me you tell me what it means and as for those who would not have me be king over them

Bring them before me and slay them. I Sure would like to hear what you guys have to say.

Okay. Well and now can we you just give us the context of this? Is this the parable? 1927 and we have in within my circles and let me give you

I'm a member of biblical Aaron see it's a group Group of scholars who studied the

Bible. There you go. There you go Biblical Aaron see a first time ever heard term scholars ever used but biblical

Aaron see good old Dennis McKenzie Who I engaged back in the 1980s, in fact, we had him on the program in the 1980s and Late 1980s, but very early on back in the days when biblical

Aaron see was a three -page mimeographed monthly mail -out and I remember demonstrating to Dennis McKenzie that his argument that the

Bible is contradicting itself because It used murder and kill in the

King James Version in Matthew and Romans in translating a portion of the Ten Commandments.

I point out to him. Excuse me But the underlying Greek phrase is the same thing You're you're picking on English translation that was not consistent and it's rendering he would not

Accept it. He is the kind of atheist once he says it's an error. He will never admit that it's not and So here you have the same group, which of course is now online a group of scholars right who

This this Sikh is a band. They're they're radical atheists. You know, that's that's that's the only place

The only direction this fellow's coming from is he's a part of but still When he asked what

Luke 19 is about why can't anybody give an answer? Well, I can't just straightforward. Yep Jesus is

King of Kings and Lord of Lords and there's gonna be a day when Jesus is going to rule and reign in his Enemies those who refuse to bow the knee before him will be punished

But you see in our in our culture I Don't want to say that I mean people tonight like that.

Well, you know what? That's the biblical message and you know what? I think Honest people people in whom the

Spirit of God is working anyways need to hear that They need to hear that and if you draw back from that,

I don't think you're doing them any favors at all Any favors at all eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

Let's start getting to our phone calls here and let's talk with Bill down Dallas.

Hi Bill I'm sorry. All right. All right.

I had jump speaker phone. Sorry about that. That's all right How are you doing? Just fine?

Okay. I'm calling on the coming of honey. Um, I listened to a

Discussion last night that you had back I guess in February with the gentleman off of the Puritan board If subjects come up a couple of times on time in a couple of places

So I wanted to ask you if you knew about something and if you would attach any significance to it Are you familiar with Maynard's book?

On history the debate over first John five seven eight. Uh -huh. Okay, there's a quote here that I was just looking at that that says something about that the

Common yohanium was invoked at Carthage when the bishops of North Africa confessed their faith

Before he narrate the Vandal. Do you know anything on that or? No, it's assuming of course that any language

That speaks of the three -in -one is is in reference to the common yohanium and you have to demonstrate that any citation is actually coming from That particular text further any patristic source has to be examined as well to see

If it has come down to us without alteration and change over time, too so Again when we that particular book

I think is an excellent demonstration of the imbalance That a person can develop on one particular text and when it comes to the common yohanium, it's it's really simple

If the common yohanium was original then we have no reason to believe that we have any

Confidence whatsoever in the textual Background in the New Testament. I could never defend it again.

I would stop defending it I would stop doing apologetics if it was if it was original and it's just as simple because if an entire theologically relevant centrally relevant theological text can simply disappear from the

Greek manuscript tradition gone unknown for for Centuries on end in the

Greek manuscript tradition Then we have no reason to believe that that has not happened all over the place

There are numerous texts in the New Testament have better textual evidence than the common yohanium that none of these people including.

Mr Maynard would ever suggest to be placed into the text in your testament And if we were to place them in the text in the testament once again

We would have a new testament It looks very very different than the Texas Receptus that all of these guys for some odd interesting reason end up wanting to defend and so It's real simple either the common yohanium is original and therefore we'd have no idea what the

New Testament was originally about or it is not original and There are certain people that are just simply extremely imbalanced who want to try to defend the

TR as the the final well Actually, I can't even say the TR because the first two editions of Erasmus which are considered part of the

TR At least our tradition did not contain it but the later forms of the

TR contain it and I think that's really the driving force behind Those who wish to attempt to establish this particular this particular reading

Well, their view is also more eclectic Text critically, you know assuming let's just assume it was a method

It's also more eclectic because they would reject the same batch of majority

Latin manuscripts And I've seen this argument tried to be invoked to that. Well, it's in so many copies of the

Latin goes way back Well, if you use that then should they not also be consistent and take the early

Latin witnesses that go against first Timothy 316 you would think so, but you have just put your finger on The heart and the beating heart of King James only ism and TR only ism in essence and that is an inconsistent application of methodologies which makes the system absolutely indefensible in any type of Debate context it is it there is an overriding desire and we're going to use any arguments

We can to defend these things But don't force us to be consistent and yeah, we're gonna look at all these

Latin manuscripts here But when they go against our TR then all of a sudden we become silent and you're exactly right

But most people don't realize that those variations are there. They don't see what you've seen Well, they well it well a lot of most folks who granted haven't looked into I've spent, you know, 12 years

Into into all this stuff. In fact, I'll be in Wallace's text critical class next semester.

Well, there you go Which I figure will be fun, but he has that's where he has made the comment that every anything methodologically that is

Given with one hand toward the King James only view is taken if you apply it consistently by the other hand

That's exactly right. And that's why when Dan and I did the King James only program on the the

John Ankenberg program Many many moons ago we could tag -team people because we're being consistent with one another we didn't we never talked before that program

I had never met Dan before but we didn't have to because we're using the same consistent methodology and So we could tag -team the same people make the same points without any

Preparation beforehand simply because we're being consistent All right, one other real quick, you know go on that on the

Latin now. I've been made aware of something. They're supposed to be Similar and of course, they really grasp for straws

But there's supposed to be a couple of or some Armenian and sylvanic Manuscripts that they've tried to invoke and of course, they they use slanted language like Metzger Doesn't have any reference to such and such, you know to this particular manuscript

Whatever, of course the you know, they've been a 27 of those are not exhaustive No, you know, they don't tell you what's in all 5 ,000, you know, they're just general and the quote -unquote important one

Well, a lot of that work hasn't even been finished yet I mean think of what Dan's trying to do if you heard the program and when we add them on a couple months ago you know the whole reason for their work there is to attempt to Do that collation work to provide the resources where so many of those manuscripts could be collated

But I'm up against my break, but let me just mention this real real quickly One of the fellows on a

Puritan board who responded to what I mentioned about Revelation 16 as you may recall Made reference to a a

Latin commentary on Revelation that had the

TR reading and the whole idea was well, you know what they may have had stuff we don't have anymore. So now you have disappearing sources as well and The it just just the reach that you have to make to try to come up with Something over here something over there that you would never do anywhere else as long as it's not in the

TR is the clearest Demonstration of the inconsistency of the position being presented. But hey

Bill enjoy Dan Wallace's class and say hi for me All right. All right. God bless.

Thank you. All righty eight seven seven seven five three three three four one We're gonna take our break be right back with Richard and Sean and your phone call

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Thank you And welcome back, let's continue with our phone calls, let's talk with Richard in Chicago.

Hi Richard. Hello Good Yes, sir, okay

My question is is there a relative principle of worship in Reformed Baptist churches being eroded or do you see it as?

being alive in a well, uh Well interesting question

Obviously there is a regulative principle of worship most Reformed Baptist would would hold to that similar to many of their orthodox

Presbyterian Brethren, I Have not seen any erosion of that. That was there something you had specifically in mind

Well, I reminded of our Scott Clark's book The recovering the

Reformed Confession and how he points out instances of how it is being eroded in Or at least

Reformed Presbyterian churches, but I'm not sure Well, he wouldn't ever refer to us as Reformed Baptist.

He doesn't believe that's a Reformed at all I'll leave that to his loss and but anyway,

I Can't comment Given that I've I've not looked at what

Examples he might have given. I mean clearly you see the movement toward a lessened view of worship that can be found in Certain elements.

Well, obviously you look at the PC USA and and you've got a loss of the the

Christian faith in a large portion of it, but Even in some PCA churches, there is a move toward that direction whenever you have a a denomination of sort of in the middle

Between the extremes you're going to have tendencies going both directions you're going to have divisions as there is in the

PCA between the conservatives and liberals and conservatives and those going for the seeker friendly

American model etc, etc. And so there's a battle that goes on there and You know,

I think there's always that tendency I think I think it's a human tendency to Look down the road and see the megachurch and go well you know if we just change this this and this and those things really matter and and so on so far so I think every generation has to Rethink and Recommit itself to the the fundamental foundational

Truths that give identity to that that particular denomination a particular church and so even using the terms liberal and conservative

I Clark says it's a move away towards The RWP since you're not framing it in terms of being confessional or anti -confessional you might

Well for an example for an example you you have John frame saying that We could implement liturgical dance within the worship

Not that I don't think he's in favor of well, I personally would never want to see John frame doing liturgical dance, but Want to see me doing liturgical dance either but I I think there are venues a little bit better than than this one for for some of those discussions

I I know what you're talking about, but it's I'll be honest with you I'm significantly more focused upon apologetics and issues in regards to Rome and Islam and things like that the there are there are programs out there where they discuss these particular issues, but I Do appreciate your phone call today.

Thank you very much Richard. Let's go to Sean in Las Vegas. I Sean Doing good

I have a question on Matthew 426 I was reading this morning just to Matthew and in the story the woman at the well, obviously and Verse 26 says

Jesus said to her I who speak to you. I'm he and of course in my New King James Version, okay, you've completely lost me there is no 26 verse of Matthew 4

No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. John John 426. Okay, I'm sitting here going man.

You're confusing me I'm sorry about that. That's like In my new

King James Version It says I who speak to you am he and of course that he is an italics

So I'm the doesn't belong in the original text So I went to the Greek and we have an ego.

I me statement in there and my question basically Is then in that statement?

Is it that ain't also an emphatic? I am statement or is the is the most common translation?

Bibles have you know, I speak to you and he is that more correct or which would she have understood that as an

I am statement I I don't I don't know that she would have because of holla lone soy right afterwards and the context is

Identification regards to the Messiah. So when you have a contextual identification like that I don't

I don't think that John is specifically using Ego, I mean at this particular point the way he does in John 8 the way he does in John 13 the way he does in John 18 now

Some might disagree with that and say hey look, you know John is clearly utilizing this and he's utilizing it in a richer sense in the sense that You you could see it in John 4, but I think it's better to recognize that since The woman had just brought up the issue of the identity of the

Messiah In verse 25. I know that Messiah is coming He who is called Christ and when that one comes he will declare all things to us and Jesus response is

Ego, I me holla lone soy. I am The one who is speaking to you. I am the

Messiah. He's it's a clear self -identification as Messiah. So since there's there's no

Question as to what the the antecedent is then it's an I it is an emphatic in the sense of I am he

But it's not in the same context you have With the temporal aspects of it in like John 8 date before Abraham was

I am or John 13 19, especially where you're you're drawing directly out of Isaiah 43 10 so and the woman does not fall back upon the ground either

So there's a couple things you could you could put together there to say it's it's an emphatic Self -identification of Jesus as the

Messiah Okay, and I would another question just real quick kind of some advice. I do a lot of Study, you know of cult the watchtower society

Mormons and then my death is littered with you know, watchtower magazines and Book of Mormon all that stuff But I'm I'm a fairly young Christian By eight years and really over the past three years

I've really come to the you know, the doctrines of grace and understood the sovereignty of God and all that stuff.

Oh My question is, you know, my my parents came out of the watchtower society when I was about seven years old and my father left

Basically religion completely and became agnostic atheist Unfortunately, unfortunately, as you know, that is the common way that people leave the society

Exactly and he was just saved this past May came to an understanding to us, you know, praise

God for that But what is what is the danger? for for Christians and studying

In studying these kinds of things also As far as you know Christians come to the point where they go, man

You know, these people have such a strong testimony of their faith. They believe it's true Maybe maybe

I'm deceived and none of this is true. Do you know what I'm saying? I do and I'm glad that you've you've raised the question because it's one

I've addressed many times in the past but but not so much over the past couple of years because my emphasis used to be very strongly upon the witnesses and the

Mormons and It's not that that has become any less important. It is just simply that there's always so many hours in a day and my studies are elsewhere at the moment, but You're you're touching on something is very very important I That is part of what's the background to the statement?

I've made many times that I would rather have five people with me in a witnessing encounter with the

Mormons Jehovah's Witnesses or ever else Who can give a clear consistent testimony to the gospel than 50 people who can rip and shred the other religion but have nothing positive to say

We have a rule for example Anyone when we go out to Mesa to pass out tracks during the

Easter pageant when we Used to go up to Salt Lake City when we would go to district conventions of Jehovah's Witnesses here in Phoenix and Hold signs because as you know passing out tracks in a situation like that is sort of a lonely and boring thing to try to do because no one's gonna take one but We would have a rule and you have to be a part of a local

Bible teaching church a member of the local Bible teaching church to be with us because There is a tendency on the part of people who become involved especially in countercult apologetics to become

Lone Rangers and To become separated from the life of the church and is that life in the church?

It is that is that ministering to others and being encouraged by others That is so vitally important and nowhere in the

New Testament are we ever told to start, you know? Spending our lives studying the Watchtower Society but we are told to gather together with the believers and to worship

God and to be Instructed out of the Word of God by those that have been set apart to do that. And so there needs to be that that very very very important balance in someone's life and So I Saw that very very clearly early on in 1985

There was a man initials MP Who was an absolute expert in all things

Jehovah's Witness he had everything down He didn't have to look up the Watchtower reference. He could give it to you

Issue and date page number off top of his head, but he was not a churchman he was not involved in the church he was on his own and Some of the chapters in the

Forgotten Trinity were actually written My senior year in Bible College because that particular individual

Became a Jehovah's Witness. He he was sucked into the very organization that he had been fighting for so long and A number of the chapters in that book were originally written as papers for classes that I was taking in college

But that I was writing the paper specifically for this particular individual and answering issues that he was bringing up now

He did eventually leave the society but He was never the same from that point on and you really couldn't trust

The gentleman from that point on because he had proven himself to be unstable But that instability was first and foremost demonstrated not by his becoming

Jehovah's Witness But by his ignoring the biblical command and it's a biblical command Hebrews 13 17 says that we are to be in subjection those who have leadership overs if you don't know who they are then you've got a problem and That that problem had pre -existed and Was should have been recognized

We so often put people up front as experts on things just because they know things we don't know But we don't know if they themselves have the maturity to actually handle the information that is there.

So I Believe it's vitally important to have the emphasis upon a positive

Study of the Christian faith rather than the negative study of the facts and figures and and false prophecies in 1914 1925 94 397 or blah blah blah blah blah of whether it's the

Watchtower Society or whatever else it might be Now obviously if you're going to be laboring in that field Well, that's something that you need to be doing but it should never be something that is taking more of your time

Than your actual positive study of the Word of God So make sure you're you're still doing your daily reading your daily study of the scriptures themselves

Don't get because it could because like I said, it can become an obsession Oh, yes, it most certainly can become an obsession and also make sure that when you're studying the

Bible You're not just studying the subjects that are relevant to that particular group There's so much more to the

Christian life There's that's one of the things that you know one of the things that that caught me when I was Studying the witnesses during that very intensive period of time is

I would I was taken aback by how many of them Did not have any balance whatsoever

In their knowledge of the Bible, I remember this one very well -known Jehovah's Witness He was a nationally known Jehovah's Witness.

He had written some material against the Trinity He was well known for being able to take on the doctrine the Trinity and stuff like that He started calling me at first.

He didn't identify himself but eventually he did and one day we were talking and I had just been studying Ephesians chapter 1 and the concept of union with Christ and it had nothing to do with Jehovah's Witnesses at this point had something to do with my seminary training and Just out of the blue.

I asked the man I said, are you in Christ and You should have heard the stuttering and stammering.

This is a guy who very Smoothly very easily can dispute almost any text you could raise about about the deity of Christ You've met people like that who it doesn't matter.

They've heard them all and they can dispute them all But I asked him this question and it was like I had just landed a right hook.

He was like Well, what does what does that matter I said well Ten times in the first 13 verses of Ephesians chapter 1 talks about being in Christ in him in the beloved one

Are you in Christ? Wow That doesn't matter

It was just amazing and when you look at these guys Especially the guys who like to play around with Greek and stuff like that I know in my heart of hearts

But if I showed them any text that had something to do with anything other than the person the

Holy Spirit the deity of Christ Heaven or hell things like that if it was just a plain old passage of Greek that's talking about something else

They'd never be able to translate because they never look at that stuff So yeah, that balance is

Vitally vitally important and I don't know of anybody master you who has remained

Effective in the ministry for long periods of time. I'm talking about decades who does not eventually find a way to accomplish that balance

Okay, all right, I'll keep that in mind and just say no I am in a very very good Bible -believing

Church and so Here's my challenge to you do something that I did years ago teach kids

Teach teach teach if you can take the Christian faith and explain it to kids and keep their attention

Which this day these days is next to impossible. Anyways, given that most of our kids are not taught to do things then you really know your faith and Be ministering to others be involved in positive godliness and in in in really cultivating

Godliness in your own life, and you'll be an effective apologist for a long period of time not just for a short period of time

Okay. Thank you for advice. Thanks John. God bless Eight seven seven seven five three three three four one is the number that Robert called.

Hello Robert Yes, hi, dr. Wait, yes, sir Yes, I'm meeting with a

Jehovah Witness every week and I got my hands on the purple people either

It's blue now Wait, well, I got a purple one. That's a little dated very dated.

In fact Uh -huh. Well, okay. Um, I thought that was the one that you really were supposed to get to know the purple people leader

The purple people leaders came in linear was replaced by the blue edition in 1919

I'm looking at my 1985 So you're looking at something that's at least almost 20 years old if you've got a purple one, they will have a blue one

Which is easily gotten hold of anyways, I have one in my hand right now, but ask me your question

I'll see if it it corresponds to the current edition that they're using Okay. Yeah, I was kind of puzzled in Hebrews 1 1 in Chapter 1 verse 6, you know where it says

I let all the angels worship him in English But in the Westcott and Hort Greek text on the left

It said I'll let you know, it says like a big long Greek word and it says underneath it

It says let do obeisance if I'm pronouncing that right let do obeisance to him not toward now

Let me ask you a question when you said let them worship him. What were you reading? The English on the

English side you mean in the in the in the margin No, it says in a verse 6

You know, it says let me say let all God's angels worship him Okay, so that is my recollection off top

My head is you have a really old edition there Let me let me read you the current edition of the

Kingdom in a linear verse 6 in the column says But when he again brings his firstborn into the inhabited earth he says quote and let all

God's angels do obeisance to him and quote and so the the

Translation has been matched to The interlinear which has let do obeisance toward under prosecuting a

Sato son Which is the term for worship there in the text? Uh -huh.

Oh, so you're saying that that is correct then well, that's there that no you got to remember that's their rendering

They are in the New World translation is tremendously inconsistent in its utilization of the the

Greek term prosecute. Uh -oh prosecute. Uh -oh can refer to doing obeisance

Honoring someone a soldier honoring a higher ranking soldier and things like that.

However When prosecute now is used in a religious context it refers to Worship and there is no

Possible question in Hebrews chapter 1 that this is a religious context

I mean Hebrews chapter 1 verses 10 through 12 will identify Jesus as Yahweh for crying out loud

So there is there's no question that this is one of those places where the New World translation is playing with the

Greek language to avoid One of the references to the worship of Jesus Christ, which is clearly being done here by the

Angels Also, that's not a photocopy of No, no in the

Greek from a photocopy of Westcott and Hort's the text the text is the same but the translation is theirs

Underneath underneath. Yes underneath the Greek. Yes. Yes. Okay, that's theirs.

All right so, um, okay, so I'm just a little confused. Is there any way

I can show them? You know that Jesus is being worshipped Here if I if I show him

Hebrews 1 6, well, yes I'm trying to remember off top of my head here.

It's been a while since I looked at it and my algo search engine isn't up right now, but under articles on our website

In the Jehovah's Witness Section I'm looking right here as quickly as I can.

There is a deity of Christ teaching outline I Thought there was

I can't see it right now. I thought there was a discussion of Proskuneo in that section and I'm not seeing it.

I Know I've addressed it and I'm trying to remember what the context in which I addressed it was But I know that I do address it at least in passing in in the

Forgotten Trinity. Do you have that that book? No, I don't have that one.

Okay, that would be if you're if you're meeting with Jehovah's Witnesses There's there's no more important book that I've written anyway, that would be of use to you than the

Forgotten Trinity because I really do deal with the vast majority of the texts that Jehovah's Witnesses use in that particular that particular book so you might find that to be really useful

Okay. All right, and I'm gonna ask you another question. Um, you know, I was also shown, you know We're John 1414 with me where Jesus says, you know, pray to me

There is that true that the me in the Westcott and Hort text has a bracket on On the word me

John 1414 is a textual variant Of course that the question is going to still come down to Why then they choose

Westcott and Hort text if they're gonna then start picking and choosing What readings they want to have me is a very strong reading in the

United Bible Society text Nessie Allen text and It's there in the Westcott and Hort text as well

But it is a textual variant and they do not put a note on that. They just simply don't translate it

I am NOT aware of their ever having defended their non -inclusion of me at John 1414 based upon the the textual variant

But I could be wrong about that because I haven't gotten the watchtower for about eight or nine years now So maybe they did in that time period and I wouldn't be aware of it, but it's it's possibility.

Okay? Thanks, Robert, all right Hey great phone calls today.

Hopefully provided you with the information that you needed I hope you listened as I spoke to Sean especially about the need for balance in studying these things

Very very important stuff. I hate to see people lose that balance and get themselves into trouble as I said

I hope you have a wonderful Thanksgiving holiday with your family on Thursday and Lord willing.

We'll be back with you on Tuesday here on the dividing line See you then God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega Ministries If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 -973 -4602 or write us at p .o

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