Elders and Deacons, Part I | The Whole Counsel

Hello, this is Chuck Baggett with The Whole Council. I'm here today with Teddy James and we are going to be talking about Elders and Deacons.

Yeah, and John is not here. John is off traveling. He's got a little vacation this week. So, usually I'm the guy that's behind the cameras, so if there's anything amiss this week, I'll go ahead and apologize for that now.

Because likely there's going to be something wrong. So, Chuck, we're talking about Elders and Deacons, but the origin for the idea is the fact that you've been preaching through this series for several weeks.

Several weeks, yeah. Into a month or two, maybe. Yeah, so we need more Elders and Deacons at Christ Church, and before we begin any kind of selection process, we wanted to spend some time talking about that.

And it is actually a part of a larger series on the Church ecclesiology. But, yeah, we're wrapping that up now in the hopes of the Lord leading us to more men.

Yeah, and it's been a fantastic series. There's so many things that I've learned about both the office of Elder, the office of Deacon, but then also what all should be involved in thinking through who should fill those offices.

And that's really kind of where we wanted to focus on this episode and this podcast. You start with one of the very first things. So, like you said, this came in the context of a series on the Church.

We looked at different portraits of the Church that are found throughout Old Testament and New Testament. And I really like the image that you gave. It's almost like an art gallery. And you can go and look at these images or these depictions or descriptions of the Church that God gives us in His Word, and we can take a long time and look at each one.

But when it comes to the offices of Elder, when it comes to the office of Deacon, why are we spending so long as a Church going through this series? And then why are we taking a full podcast, maybe two, to discuss this?

Before I answer that question, let me back up real quick and say that view of those portraits as an art gallery, I think I actually heard Jeremy Walker use that, and so that's where I think I got that illustration.

But we went through that longer series leading up to that. We're looking at the Church and how God esteems the Church, how He values the Church, to raise our estimate of the Church. And then that should lead to a greater desire to make sure that we have qualified men to serve.

If the Church is just like the PTA or some other organization, then our view of the people who'd lead that is going to be vastly different than if we see it as something that's precious to God, redeemed by the blood of Christ and the apple of His eye.

If that's what the Church is, well, that's different. And the leaders who lead that then need to be a different sort of people than those who run just some organization down the road.

The Church’s Value and Why Qualified Leaders Matter

Yeah, so in other words, your understanding and view of the pastor, the elder, and the deacon is a reflection on your understanding and your view of the Church, both locally and also the Church globally.

I would think so, yes.

So that's why it's so important that we really wanted to spend some time to have these conversations and to have this discussion, because it is really, really important. And it is something that... Do you think that pastors...

Because I haven't heard a lot of sermons on this. I've heard podcasts on this, which is why we wanted to kind of throw this in. There's a lot of books that are written on it, but do you think that maybe pastors almost feel a little odd preaching about the role and the qualifications of a pastor to their church?

I can speak from experience and say yes, absolutely. Yeah, and the weeks we spent on that, as it regarded elders particularly, were weeks of lots of conviction and prayer and, you know, God make me more like this?

Am I enough like this? So yeah, it's not a comfortable thing to approach and to preach, for sure.

Yeah, yeah, I can completely understand that. So do you see, as you've done this kind of study, and I know you're also kind of looking around at different churches, would you say that American evangelicalism has a healthy or an unhealthy understanding of the role, the office, the responsibility, and the character of pastors and deacons?

American Evangelicalism and the Qualifications of Pastors and Deacons

I think there are many that probably have an unhealthy view from experience and also just looking around. So as a part of preparation for this series, there are a number of websites that have church positions opening.

You know, here's an opening, and they describe what they're looking for. And you look at what they're looking for, and you look at 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, and you think, okay, have y 'all read this? That's not all of them, but there are some.

And a number of congregations will send out a survey to the body and say, what do you think we should look for in our next pastor? And it's telling about the understanding of the body regarding what they're looking for and whether or not they have any understanding of this.

So many of the responses that you see in these postings let you know that it makes you think that maybe what they're looking for is kind of a reaction to the last guy. So maybe he didn't do this like they wanted, and so they really want to make sure the next guy does.

And so maybe an overreaction without bringing their thoughts before Scripture first and saying, what does God say about this?

Yeah, so we can talk about churches, and that's really, really general and I think really easy because it's very easy for a person, for a listener, to say, oh, yeah, I know that church. I know the church that has this job description and all this kind of sense.

But how can I, as an individual, really bring my thoughts to Scripture and say, okay, do I have a proper understanding of the biblical mandate or biblical responsibilities of a pastor and elder or pastor and deacon?

Well, bring your expectations, your desires for what that man would be to Scripture and look at the passages that deal with that and see how well they line up. If they don't line up well, then you don't have a healthy view.

And if they line up well, then great. Another reason that this issue is important—it should be important to every church member. Let me back up a second. It should be an important issue to every pastor.

Am I this that God describes? He's giving gifts to His church. Am I a gift to His church? Well, I'm only a gift to His church if I'm meeting the qualifications that He has set. So every person who wants to be a pastor or a deacon should bring themselves regularly to Scripture, these passages, and say, am I these things?

And not just was I this at one time, but am I continuing to be this and am I growing in this? But then every church member should be concerned about these things also because—let's just talk about the pastor for a moment.

Here's a person who's going to stand in the pulpit and feed you spiritually for hopefully years and teach your children and lead you. And who is it that you're listening to and are, by Scripture, obligated to follow as an example?

What is the character of that man?

So Chuck, what do you mean when you say obligated to follow?

Right, so not blindly follow. But as he's leading you to Christ, Paul could say, follow me. I'm following Christ. Imitate me. I'm imitating Christ. And every man of God ought to be able to say the same thing.

If you look at the qualifications, which we'll look at later, but if you look at the various qualifications that Scripture gives, other than—so for the elder, he must be able to teach. Other than that, what qualification do you see there that should not be true of any believer?

And so what is it about the pastor, the elder, the deacon, and those qualifications that sets him apart? And I think it is a maturity in those things. So he's to be an example to the flock, Peter says, and he's an example in these qualities.

What kind of example is he setting? And is it one that you're willing to follow? Or is it one that you look at and you think, well, no. And if his life is out of sorts, if the character is out of sorts, will you really give much weight to the words that he says?

So there's a marriage, if you will, between his character and the things he says. The more clearly we see these qualities in the life, I think the more weight we will lend to his words. He wins a right to say these things to you in a sense.

So it's not just I'm pointing to the Bible and the Bible says this, you better listen. But the life adds weight also. You can think about the apostle Paul speaking to the Thessalonians. He talks to them, I didn't just come to you with—let me turn there.

Paul writing to the Thessalonians, and he said that we never came with flattering speech, as you know, nor with a pretext for greed, God is witness. Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others.

Even though as apostles of Christ, we might have asserted our authority. But we proved to be gentle among you, as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children. And he continues to talk about his care for them, how he worked day and night, how he was like a father to them.

But it wasn't just his speech. It was also his words. And the words that he brought gave—pardon me, the life that he lived lent authority to the words that he brought. The people would want to hear what he has to say because he proved so gentle among them.

He was an example to them.

Character, Authority, and the Weight of a Pastor’s Life

Right, and also when a man is marked by the character, a pastor and a deacon are going to be in positions where they have to say some very hard things. And I think it's really a two-pronged approach.

The first is his character gives him the right to say it. The authority that God has placed on him gives him the authority to say what he has to say. But also, if he's a man of character, he will say those things in such a way that it comes through and is driven by love.

And how many things are not said because your own heart is convicted, I can't say that because that's me.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that means that that goes into your service, that goes into your preaching, that goes into so many different arenas of ministry and really is unhealthy for the church if you find yourself in that situation.

And one other thing, Chuck, when I was in Bible college, I remember reading a story. Now, this was, goodness, over 10 years ago. I'm an old man, Chuck. But one of the things I remember seeing...

Does that make me?

Yeah.

I remember reading a story where the average tenure of a pastor was about five years, and it may have actually been lower than that.

I think it's lower than that.

Do you think that that plays a role in a misunderstanding and even a low view of the office of pastor?

Probably a low view of the office of pastor, but also a low view of the church. Not the office of the church, but a low view of the church. Because so often what happens, I think, and this probably plays for both sides, but let's say from the church's side.

So often what you find is a group of people who become very possessive about the church. This is our church. And we were talking before the podcast, and you were talking about hearing people speak in a way that, you know, I was here before you got here.

I won't be here when you leave. So you hear that kind of talk. And obviously these people, this is my church, and I'm protecting it. And they fail to realize the best way to protect it is to get your hands off of it, in a sense, and come to the scripture and say, God, what do you say?

And then from the pastor's standpoint, perhaps the same kind of problems exist where a church is seen maybe more as a stepping stone or a stopping place for a little while rather than here's where the Lord has planted me, and I'm gonna give my life here until he moves me.

And then seeking to live there and love those people and preach the truth.

Yeah, because I mean, now, I understand I would be in a very odd position because I've always lived here. We moved into this town in New Albany when I was five years old. And so, you know, this is my world.

This is where my roots are. But because I have known people the entire time I've been here, that also gives credibility. They've seen growth. They've seen the sanctification. They've seen these things.

And there are friends that I've had for that long that I have to say hard things to. And that longevity leads so much credibility to the words that you say. If I know you for three years, I have an idea of who you are.

If I know you for 15 years, I really know who you are. And so, do you think that there's also an effectiveness in ministry that's impacted by short tenures?

Longevity, Credibility, and Ministry Effectiveness

Yes. And I've read, I don't remember who said this, but I think I've seen a couple people say, like, you're there for five to eight years before you really kind of, you know, you're out of the honeymoon stage.

You're past the uncomfortable stage, perhaps, and really starting to settle in and be accepted as the pastor who knows these people and knows their lives and they know something about your life. So many of these things, these qualifications even, they take time to observe.

And as you're saying, the life takes time to observe. So how are you going to bring the weight of character to bear on the words you say if you're there such a short period of time that people have not had the opportunity to really observe your character?

But we don't want to say that it's always God's pleasure for a person to be at a location for a long period of time. We're not God. And I don't mean to say that. I don't mean to say that if that's your entire experience, that you're a failure.

Or that a church is a failure if they have a string of four or five pastors that only stayed for a few years each.

Right.

Well, I think what we are trying to say is that if the average in our country is three to five years, then that's a problem.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And also, there is an idealized, I don't know if goal is the right word, but there is something to strive for. And pray for your pastor, if it's the Lord's pleasure, that he would be there for the next 25 years.

Or that if you are a pastor, pray that you would be in the place where you'd be for 25 years. But I think either way, would there not be wisdom in stepping forward, moving forward, planning as though you're going to be here for 25 years?

Now, God can move you clearly, but intentionality.

Yeah, intentionality. It's a good word.

Yeah.

Gifts, Graces, and the Character Emphasis in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1

So, let's move to, we've talked about the importance, why we're going to talk about this. Chuck, one of the things in your sermons that in any of your notes you really wanted us to hit on is the difference between gifts and character.

Why that differentiation?

One reason is because as you look at the clearest passages on this subject, obviously, 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1, talking about elders, pastors, here's the qualifications that are listed. And as you look at those, the emphasis is on character.

The only gift, if you will, that's mentioned or skill that's mentioned is that he must be able to teach. Other than that, you're looking at his character. So, the emphasis in Scripture is on his character.

So, yeah.

So, that's why. I mean, no, but that's why. So, we want to focus on the things that God focuses on and what God tells us to focus on. If God is going to give us so many words in the Bible on describing who to look for in a pastor and in a deacon, then that should be the standard.

Yeah.

And to both of those letters, Paul is giving instruction to Timothy and to Titus to look for these men. And here's the opportunity for him to say, look for the gifted men. Look for men who have these gifts.

And he doesn't. Look for men who have these qualities, these graces.

Yeah, no, graces. What do you mean by that?

I mean that while these are, we could say, virtues or qualities in a person's life.

Real quick, what do you Okay. So, we're talking about qualities and virtues. Just give me a very short, not even a complete rundown of some of the things that you're talking about as being virtues.

Blameless, gentle, not addicted to wine.

Above reproach.

Above reproach. Yeah, those things.

Okay.

So, these are virtues in a person's life, but they're not just the effort of my diligence. I've been diligent to be gentle with everybody. It's not just that. I think these are also graces in the sense that it's the outworking of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit in a person's life.

It's not to say that they have been that they magically appear because you have the Spirit. We also, you know, we work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

And you mortify your sin.

Yes.

And you sanctify you are sanctified.

Yes. But independence upon the Spirit, walking in the Spirit, filled with the Spirit, these things ought to be there and growing.

Yeah.

The Danger of Favoring Charisma Over Character

Yeah, absolutely. And so, as and you alluded to this earlier, particularly when you were talking about the job descriptions that you would see. The wrong things that we look at. We tend to look at character.

Or no, I'm sorry. We tend to look at charisma or at gifting or at something that I want versus the thing that God says that I need in a pastor or an elder. So what's at risk if we do follow along with the job descriptions, you know, that people have listed and we're just looking at charisma?

Or even if we're just reacting to the guy who was here last as pastor?

Well, if we're just reacting to the guy who was here last, then, again, one of the temptations is overreaction. You know, I don't I so strongly don't want that again that I've got to have this. And the insistence on whatever that is may not be what God really has planned for you next, you know.

But the emphasis on the gifts versus the character, I think there's the temptation to be impressed with the gift more so than the character. And certainly one is more readily observable than the other.

If you think of a man who has just that voice and you hear him and it's smooth as honey and he's able to communicate so well, it's easy to hear that and be really impressed with that. And it's wonderful when a man has that if that's what God's given to him.

But if he doesn't have the character to match that, then he's kind of a snake oil salesman. And you are listening to and potentially following a man whose character is going to lead you astray. You can't really follow him.

He's not worthy of being followed.

Right.

And also where is he leading you? Because he's not going to lead you to Christ. He's not going to lead you to the cross. And he's not going to lead your wife, your husband, your children to salvation.

He's not going to point you there. He's going to point you to himself.

Yeah.

And saying that, it's not to say that people will not come to Christ while that man's preaching. That happens.

Right.

Sure.

God uses fallen men.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

But that's not the standard that he's given to us.

And I think, too, part of it is we as people tend to say, oh, well, I really want the next Spurgeon. I really want the next Lloyd-Jones. But take an honest look at those men. Lloyd-Jones hated his sermons being recorded.

He never wanted them to do it. He didn't understand why anybody would want to listen to a sermon that was preached to his church for his church in this season. Why is that necessary? We're glad they did.

We're incredibly glad that they made those recordings. Spurgeon had a different view. He understood that people wanted to read his sermons and that people were blessed by it and appointed people to Christ.

So he would take Mondays. So Sunday he would preach, and he had people who would write the sermons out. Monday morning he would edit them, and then they'd go out in newspapers. Different approach. Both of the men, however, constantly fought to make their ministry not about them.

They never wanted the spotlight on themselves. They understood that God had given them giftings and that God had blessed them with an ability to preach. But they never wanted the spotlight of their ministry on them.

When you read them, when you hear them, it is constantly pointing to Christ.

Spurgeon, Lloyd-Jones, and Ministry That Points to Christ

Yeah, and it was more to them than their giftings. I remember a story, I can't remember who told it, about Lloyd-Jones visiting Vernon Hyam in the hospital. And it was one of these rooms where there's two patients.

And the other patient, after Lloyd-Jones had left, turns to Mr. Hyam and asks him, who was that clean man? And Lloyd-Jones...

Vernon Hyam.

Yeah, Vernon Hyam.

What do you mean by clean man?

I assume he meant holy. Who's this man?

Sorry, for a second, I was like the cleaning man.

Yeah, no, not to mop, but here's a man who... This guy looks at him, and that man's clean.

Yeah.

Maybe that's not a good story to include.

No, no, I think it is, because it does say there is something about these men that their nearness to God is what really was the easiest thing to see about them. I mean, I remember in the Logic on Fire documentary, one of Lloyd-Jones' daughters said that you would walk by his office, and you would see him in his chair, and he'd be praying, and you knew not to go in, and everybody in the house would just be quiet because they knew that he was meeting with the Lord.

It was that in the home life that was reflected in everything else that he did. So Lloyd-Jones wasn't about himself. He was about his Christ. And is that not what every believer really should be? But there is a higher standard for elders.

Yeah.

You know, Acts 6, they're given time for prayer and the ministry of the Word, so use the time.

How to Respond When an Elder’s Qualifications Are in Question

So you may have noticed we've been talking a lot about elders and a lot about deacons, and one thing that we have not talked about, Chuck, are the qualifications of Titus and 1 Timothy.

Read them for yourself.

Yeah, you can. We definitely encourage you to do that. 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1. We want you to go back and read Titus 1, right? Yeah, Titus 1. We want you to go back and we want you to read those. Next week we will come together and talk through some of these qualifications.

But, Chuck, just to wrap up this episode, what do I do if I'm listening to this and I realize, oh, no, my pastor doesn't meet the qualification, or, oh, no, I'm a pastor and I don't meet the qualifications, or maybe I didn't like my preacher anyway and so now I got ammo.

We don't want you to take this podcast and say, you know, well, I didn't like this guy anyway and now I have a reason to bring to him why I don't like him because I don't think he does all these things that Chuck and T .J. are talking about.

Yeah, that's a loaded question.

That's why I'm asking you.

Thank you, yeah. Where's John when we need him? You know, one thing is to kind of check yourself. So if you hear that and with arrogance think, now I've got ammo like you just said, well, no, you don't.

You need to back up a bit. Whatever conversation you might have needs to be one that is accompanied by humility. So if you're coming with arrogance, you've already lost this fight, even if you might be right.

You know, you're not coming correctly. Another thing to consider is the scriptures say that we're not to receive an accusation against an elder except by two or three witnesses. So if you are alone in your observations, if by yourself you see this and no one else sees this, then do you really see this?

So you need to be careful with that also. What was the rest of the question?

You know, when we were talking about this before we recorded, you had mentioned, and I think this is such a perfect step, but it is to say if there's a question of qualification or of gifting or of character with your elder, you know, Chuck, you had mentioned one of the best things you could do is to go to that man and to say, hey, I've been thinking a lot about what the scriptures say about elders and deacons.

Would you go through a study with me on that?

Well, yeah, if there's something that's so, you know, if it's something that's flagrant, immoral, that might be addressed very differently.

Right, right.

But yeah, if you're thinking, well, maybe he's not so gentle. He could be more gentle than, rather than accosting him and saying, you're not very gentle, you know, in a very ungentle way, you could ask him to help you understand these passages better and see where the Lord leads that.

Yeah, yeah, no, I think that'd be fantastic. So when, Chuck, when we're done wrapping up this podcast, I need to sit down and have a study with you.

There you go.

But no, you want to wrap it up?

Humility, Witnesses, and a Gentle Approach to Correction

Yes, we bring this episode to a conclusion. I would mention that a big help in looking at all of this in these past months has been a recent series of books written by Al Martin. There are other books that address this, but Martin's own life so clearly reflects these characters.

And then he writes about them, three volumes, massive volumes. The middle volume, the second volume, is actually on preparing to preach, so sermon preparation and delivery. But the first and the third volume both kind of deal with this issue.

The first volume, the call to the ministry, so the pastor looking at this, you know, looking at yourself as you're considering this, the third volume more along the lines of the church looking at this.

A lot of information, much more than we've covered or will be able to cover.

Yeah, we'll make sure there's a link to that three-volume set in the show notes.

Yeah, yeah. So, Lord willing, we'll hit this again next week. Until then, have a good one.