Rick Warren vs. Al Mohler

Hey everyone, welcome to the conversations that matter podcast. I am still on the road as you can see in a hotel room tonight and Coming back home from the be not conformed conference and a

Lutheran meeting that I was at and both went very well No, I'm not a Lutheran I was invited by some

Lutherans To talk to them about social justice and I actually talked quite a bit about what's going on in the

Southern Baptist Convention So I will hopefully give you a bit of a report on what

I've been doing later in the week But right now I don't have a lot of time and I want to give you some highlights from what happened today at the

Southern Baptist Convention and Share with you my thoughts on that. So obviously the big news is

Rick Warren and Al Mohler and the exchange they had and what that means for tomorrow and I want to show you that exchange and then

I'll explain what's going on Anyone else gonna declare that the polls are closed and we will move to our next item.

I Know you can see that we're over time But our bylaw requires us to finish this action

So we're going to continue until we're done the credentials committee recommended that Saddleback Church be found not in friendly cooperation with the

Southern Baptist Convention the executive committee Adopted the recommendation and found that Saddleback Church is not in friendly cooperation with the

Southern Baptist Convention Saddleback Church has filed an appeal with the convention within the required 30 days prior to the annual meeting of the

Southern Baptist Convention the question is Shall the decision of the credentials committee and the executive committee that Saddleback Church is not in cooperation with the

Southern Baptist Convention be sustained our rules apply a limitation of debate on this matter to one representative of the church question and one representative of the credentials committee or the executive committee

The chair recognizes Rick Warren for three minutes and following his conclusion

The chair will recognize the executive committee and credentials committee for three minutes to respond

For 178 years The SBC has been a blend of at least a dozen different tribes of Baptist if you think every

Baptist Thinks like you you're mistaken What we share in common is a mutual commitment to the inerrancy and the infallibility of God's Word And to the

Great Commission of Jesus Christ No one is asking any Southern Baptist to change their theology.

I'm not asking you to agree with my church I am asking you to act like a

Southern Baptist Who have historically agreed to disagree on dozens of doctrines in order to share a common mission

Since Southern Baptists have always allowed disagreement on doctrines of including the essential doctrines of salvation

Why should this one issue cancel our fellowship? In 2013 when the

Calvinist were under fire Baptists agreed to disagree and the split was averted

Now ten years later will we treat egalitarian Baptists with the same grace we showed the

Calvinist We should remove churches For all kinds of sexual sin racial sin financial sin leadership sin sins that harm the testimony of our convention but the 1928 churches with women on pastoral staff have not sinned if Doctrinal disagreements between Baptists are considered sin.

We all get kicked out You'll never get 100 % of Baptists to agree 100 % on 100 % of doctrine

That's why our Constitution says that churches must closely identify not completely identify with our confession

Now the Baptist faith and message is 4032 words Saddleback disagrees with one word

That's ninety nine point nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine nine in agreement. Isn't that close enough?

Al moeller who for some reason gets to speak twice and do the rebuttals claims the phrase the office of the pastor is limited to men that that also includes every staff position to and Somehow it also prevents any woman from teaching

But I was able to contact about half over half of the original drafting committee of the

Baptist faith message 2000 and seven of them told me Al was wrong in fact

Before the vote on the 2000 Baptist faith and message even Al in his hometown pay newspaper

Said it didn't limit women from being assistant pastors. Go read it in the

Courier Journal If this precedent is set Southern Seminary will have to change the name of the

Billy Graham school since Billy Graham trained women pastors at our global training events And he endorsed the preaching ministry of his daughter saying and is the best preacher in in the

Graham family Vote no, if this precedent is set. We'll have to rename our to I'm very sorry, but the time is expired

Chair now recognizes the executive committee credentials committee for response

Thank You. Mr. President as the chairman of the executive committee, I would like to again recognize.

Dr Albert moeller as the representative of the executive committee to respond to the appeal Thank You. Mr.

Chairman, I just want to say that my position was there Misrepresented but nonetheless it is important to state for the record that Albert moeller does not say

What the Baptist faith and message means the Southern Baptist? Convention says what the

Baptist faith and message means and is quite competent to accomplish that task in the year 2000 the words the office of pastor is limited to man is qualified by scripture was inserted because 30 years ago this issue threatened to tear this denomination apart the definition of friendly cooperation came down to the fact that that was an issue that would endanger the cooperative cohesion and faithfulness of the church of the

Southern Baptist Convention and in particular we look to this issue because Southern Baptist decided this is not just a matter of church polity.

It is not just a matter of hermeneutics It's a matter of biblical commitment a commitment to the scripture that unequivocally we believe

Limits the office of pastor to men. It is an issue of biblical authority it is one that is actually led to the unity of the

Southern Baptist Convention as Southern Baptists have gone forward with an issue of clarity here, which has greatly

Made our doctrine and order a matter of unity and harmony it is the unity and harmony of the

Southern Baptist Convention that is now at stake and We're in an unusual situation. Once again, this is not a

Convention responsibility to offer a comprehensive verdict on the ministry of Rick Warren or Saddleback Community Church We can thank

God for every good gospel thing that is represented by that church and its ministry It is a question about the

Southern Baptist Convention and what it means for a church to be in friendly cooperation in doctrine and in order with this convention and here we face the unusual situation in which

Dr. Warren himself has made repeated statements and the church has taken repeated actions that make very clear

That it rejects the confessional understanding of the Southern Baptist Convention on this issue

This isn't a question of misunderstanding The Credentials Committee and the Executive Committee took action based upon the actions of Saddleback Community Church in establishing a woman as a campus pastor and having women with the title of pastor to teach in the teaching role on Sunday morning and then

Pastor Warren going on to say more expansively that the church basically and he endorses and calls for a more comprehensive

Egalitarianism, I'm confident that's not where the Southern Baptist Convention is going to go I believe that it is a statement without rancor and without personal attack

Without making a comprehensive verdict on a congregation that is no longer among us

We simply say that our Credentials Committee and Executive Committee have done the right thing.

We need to do that So for those who haven't watched the other videos that I put out on this subject

Long and short of it is that Rick Warren's church Saddleback is one of two churches being disfellowshipped from the convention the

Southern Baptist Convention Because they're out of step with the Baptist faith and message on the subject of women pastors

And so you heard Rick Warren make his defense you heard Al Mohler Representing the

Executive Committee which made the decision to kick Saddleback Church out Represent the Executive Committee and support their decision

I think just as a matter of tactics here

Rick Warren's Presentation probably could not have gone all that much worse in my opinion.

It was it was pretty bad he in fact

It signals to me that he doesn't really Know Southern Baptist that well at least

The way that the annual meeting Politics works if you've watched it as many years as I've watched it

You don't typically see this kind of thing. In fact, even when JD Greer is

Trying to blast his political opponents from the stage he tends to really ostracize them as fringy and They're not like those good

Southern Baptists who make up the rest of the denomination So what Warren did was he used the pronoun you instead of us, which is a big mistake

That's not the language that you generally hear from the left -leaning folks in the Southern Baptist Convention they'll make an appeal and say something like You know

We need to make sure that we treat immigrants right or we need to make sure that we treat abuse

Victims survivors right or we need to make sure that we have diverse churches or something like that They don't start wagging the finger and saying you they

See themselves as part of the the room and so that there's a commonly shared identity there and that's very appealing

But Rick Warren immediately makes this separation their saddleback in him and then there's you all there's there's you and you're not acting like Southern Baptist So he's he's chastening them with his words

He also made it very personal with Al Mohler. That's another rule. He broke And you know liberals can get away with this stuff a little more than conservatives, but still he's questioning

Relationships which you're just not supposed to do even if you disagree. You're not supposed you're supposed to be This is the good manners in the

Southern Baptist Convention in the elite echelon You have to affirm the relationship as you are destroying your opponent.

I just That's how it is. I didn't make the rules, but that's what I've observed for years

You even say things like my good friend or my brother and then you proceed to destroy them sometimes behind their back and sometimes it can be even more overt than that, but you have to at least pretend like you're in friendly cooperation and You care about them

And then the other thing he did which was a big mistake was he blamed the stage for giving Al Mohler too much time

So he made an enemy not just of Al Mohler But of this the rules of the convention and the stage and those who are controlling it and the stage as I've said before Generally controls the way these votes go.

It's very rare that the votes don't go the way the stage and by the stage I mean the president and those who are around the president giving committee reports and running things from from the

What's in front of the Southern Baptist where they can visibly see so that leadership that's being That's being used to direct

Southern Baptist from the front of the room That's usually what controls the convention and Rick Warren wanted to make an enemy with them as well

Which is another big mistake and so they cut off his mic and I and some people are you know cheering that Which I understand because Rick Warren got a lot of time last year and it didn't seem fair And so that at least they cut his mic, but you got to understand here, too

This has come off the heels of weeks of Rick Warren Just going full bore and and over -the -top and not really

Not he's not using the style. He's not in keeping with the style that you're supposed to the image you're supposed to cultivate as a

Southern Baptist and and and he's made an enemy with major Southern Baptists over this issue and It's just it's

I don't know what to make of it completely, but that's my interpretation of Part of the reason why

I think The votes probably gonna go against him tomorrow when they tabulate it and give the results

It's already actually happened, but they haven't actually given the results yet. I Think that could play into it

The other thing is Al Mohler His response he stood more on principle He spoke

Bible language, which Southern Baptists tend to understand more. He complimented. This is a bigger thing

Complimented Southern Baptists that they're competent He basically told the room, you know, you're all

Southern Baptists and you all know how to interpret this you're you're knowledgeable So he complimented them while we're Rick Warren is pulling them down ripping them a new one

That's the huge contrast there. I know that style stuff that Sometimes that can matter more than the theology to be quite honest with you and Rick Warren was on the wrong side of that and so I'm not reducing it all to that but I am saying that that is a significant element and when people say

Tomorrow if the vote goes against Rick Warren that look that Southern Baptist took a principled stand on this

Yeah, that's fine. And and I would agree to an extent but I would also add in It was easy for them to do it in this circumstance much easier than it would have been

Otherwise if Rick Warren played the game the way you're supposed to play it Now I want to talk briefly about those who are playing the game the way the

Southern Baptists in a palatable way that would introduce the spoonful of sugar to help the medicine go down and Let me show you this clip and then

I'll comment on it. This is a clip of a number of former Southern Baptist presidents I see

James Merritt, he's the one speaking JV Greer's there the last or two presidents ago

Ed Litton the last presidents there for the convention I Games is there and they're all showing solidarity

With what the message you're about to hear. I am a complementarian to the core.

I Am fully committed to every jot and tittle of the Baptist faith and message But it's become apparent to me

We are in desperate need going forward of two things Clarity and consistency so I move

That the convention authorized the SBC president to appoint a broadly representative task force from across our convention

So study the issue of how this convention should deem churches to be in friendly cooperation on questions of faith and practice

As laid out in article 3 .1 of the Constitution Referencing our adopted statement of faith and to bring back recommendations to the 2024

SBC Emanuel meeting in Indianapolis for how we can move forward together in biblical fidelity missional clarity and cooperative unity

So this is a recommendation for a study committee to study this issue of What is a pastor and of course he starts off with I'm a complementarian but We need to look at this, right?

That's the way Southern Baptists want to be approached. It sounds sophisticated It doesn't sound mean it seems principled

It's everything Rick Warren wasn't and and those guys they know how the convention works

They've been presidents of the convention and so they're approaching it in a way that they know is more of a long -term game long -term strategy and It will bring the convention

I believe to the same place Rick Warren wants to bring it It's just that Rick Warren wants to bring it there immediately and they want to bring it there now

Of course, I'm assuming motives here So so let me just say this even if they don't have the motives of making the

SBC egalitarian Which I they probably do some of them But even if they don't all right, let's just say they don't let's say

I'm going out on a limb assuming that I think I have the evidence to back it up, but The reality is their actions are going to lead to that as soon as you start in nuancing everything to death and Requestioning Really basic fundamental easy to understand things.

This is how the liberal denominations the main lines that we Think of today like the

PC USA, etc. That's how they got to where they are It's this this this academic nuancing that ends up eventually killing doctrine

And and that's the route this is going to go and and really this is the split I talked about In the last podcast where I said look you're gonna have

No, even if Rick Warren loses, this is still a good thing for the left. It moves things towards the left because it resets the barriers or the scope so so if you have

You think of like thesis antithesis conservative liberal now the conservatives

The true conservatives most of them have left or been vanquished and What you have left is a situation where the conservatives are now nine marks now nine marks

They were on the left on the CRT issue I think even the abuse issue to some extent

But they're the me too issue. I should say but now all of a sudden they're there.

They're the conservatives nine marks haven't held an event yesterday at the Southern Baptist Convention and Jonathan Lehman is supporting

Mike Law's amendment Mike Law's amendment, which will go for a vote tomorrow. I think is a

Amendment that basically says That the Southern Baptist Convention is going to add in there

I think it's article three of their bylaws a statement a rule that if a church has women pastors they can

Be brought up in charges before the credentials committee and basically kicked out of the convention kind of like what's happening to Saddleback Church But as you heard

Rick Warren say there's supposedly 1 ,900 other churches according to him that have women pastors.

So what about them? So An amendment like that would would make the difference and the real test is going to be whether or not that amendment passes on the

Complementary and egalitarian issue. It's not really the work Warren thing as much because there's there's too much personality with Rick Warren He was too arrogant

The stage was against him I think that there is the possibility that even left -leaning people in the

SBC don't mind Sacrificing a Rick Warren in order to show that they're still conservative somehow

But while also moving the needle more slowly by not adopting

Mike Law's amendment I think I like I said this in the last podcast, but you already have language against quote -unquote racism and abuse and People can be or churches can be brought up in charges before the credentials committee on those issues

So this would just add the issue of women pastors to that list and really specify it

And and so nine marks is supporting this and you know That's it's kind of rich for me watching this over the last few years and thinking nine marks is gonna be the conservative

Okay, you know that's different nine marks has been pushing things more towards the left but Baptist 21 is

Another organization and Danny Aiken's sons, I believe run that and They do a podcast and I don't listen to them really but I've heard them before and but they are supporting this

What looks like it's going to be an alternative amendment or something tomorrow that's the expectation at least

But yeah, I'm not sure exactly how this is all gonna shake out But you have this petition for a study committee

And tomorrow is when we're gonna find out really what happens What direction is the Southern Baptist Convention gonna go on this issue?

Are they going to adopt Mike Law's amendment? Are they gonna adopt a softer amendment? Are they gonna try to amend Mike Law's amendment?

Those are the questions that I think are way more important than whether Saddleback Church Gets kicked out or not that that's the big optics now

I think I did say in the last podcast if Saddleback Church is kicked out of the convention.

It's got to be overwhelming If there's even a question if it's even a close vote

That's not good. That's not good I mean the left is the needles being pushed to the left no matter what in this circumstance

But a really rousing defeat of Saddleback like if it's like an 80 % landslide against them

That would be symbolic to show hey the convention really doesn't want to go this direction There really are more conservatives now

I Would be skeptical I guess even in that case a little bit I would be encouraged by that and I think you should if you're trying to stay in the

Southern Baptist Convention and fight but the reality is there was a few things yesterday that happened that in my estimation are just More of the same more of what we've that that drift that we've had for the last few years every year there's a

Resolution on some racism quote -unquote related issue every year since like 2015 or something but this year it was on immigration and it was a terrible resolution.

It's called unwisely engaging immigration and I'll just summarize a few of the problems

Government should care for migrants. So they have that responsibility now immigration reform

Should happen and creating a pathway for legal status now, you got to understand the context they're saying this in They're saying this when we have a mass invasion basically at the our southern border they condemned nativism, whatever that is, right and forced diversity is part of it because because we need to reflect the

Revelation chapters seven Diversity in heaven and so somehow immigration reform is part of this and it's just a

I Don't know if it's ignorant or just nefarious, but it's a terrible

Resolution and of course it passed So that also tells you where the convention is going

There's these other issues that are happening in real time And you know, I think the CRT issue is just a done deal at this point.

Like there's really no attempts to For conservatives to rally around that conservative that's a lost issue and now they're trying to fight the woman pastors thing

Which we were told a few years ago every Southern Baptist believes that only the office of pastor is reserved for men and this isn't even an issue well

Now it's an issue But I think part of the problem is the layman were more motivated during that little window of opportunity

We had to I think fight because of the CRT stuff They were being told by their pastors that they were implicitly racist and this was splitting congregations up This issue is not the same and for a variety of reasons one of them being

That these churches where there's women pastors, they tend to be more leftist and Accommodating the people in those churches are used to it and there they tend to be more supportive

It's not like it's as widespread Could it become widespread sure, but it's not like this

Seminaries aren't really so you could say in some soft subtle ways. They are supporting this but they're not overtly supporting this kind of thing and And it's not like the

CRT issue where you had like almost across the board. It seemed like pastors were chiding their congregations

I Think I made the point Maybe two or three years ago. I probably made it both two or two and three years ago

All right, I guess 2019 and 20, I guess the next one they met was 2021 so those years

That the only way to win this Really to win this to get the presidency of the Southern Baptist Convention is to make sure that you can bring as many laymen as possible

Messengers to the convention and just overwhelm the convention small -town pastors get them to come form a fun to do it get a ground game do kind of like Something similar to the conservative resurgence of the 80s and For my estimation that just hasn't really happened

They've been saddled I don't get it all of it because it's it I don't want to discourage the people who are in the convention to be honest with you who are who are trying to fight the good fight tomorrow, especially but Let's just say that that hasn't really happened and That means that you are forced then to build coalitions at the convention or in order to try to win the room

If you're trying to win the room, that's an uphill battle and I would say that the complementarian issue is more of a it's a deeper theological issue that I think the people in the room and the

People who work for the convention the theology and herds the the pastors who end up showing up to it

They're gonna be more more willing. I think to engage that topic and And so maybe it's a it's a better winning topic for conservatives in a way

But clearly it wasn't enough to propel Mike Stone to victory because he only got a little over 30 %

Which if I if memory serves me That is Worth that that's certainly worse because it was a close vote the first time

Mike Stone ran two years ago But I think that might even be worse than last year in Anaheim It's not much different at least than the vote that took place in Anaheim and so So it's just it's it's kind of a mess it's the issue that is being fought on is one that I think most is mostly one that the

Conservatives who tend to be more in the elite classes or the pastoral ranks the seminary professor types

They're willing to fight on it, but there's just not enough numbers of them We probably have the numbers or we did have the numbers a few years ago to fight on the

CRT thing But this tragedy wasn't really implemented to get them to the convention. So Where they didn't come whatever happened with that.

So So this is the conundrum. This is the challenge that conservatives in the Southern Baptist Convention have with them the reality is that the

Conservatives are desperate for hope right now And I think they're going to grasp for anything that they can to show that they're still relevant because remember

We've heard for now over a year that Anaheim wasn't the place that was where the last convention was held.

It was liberal Conservative pastors from the Bible Belt weren't gonna be going out there So, you know that that's kind of expected that Tom Askew would lose that Okay, Tom Askew was the more conservative guy running the guy

Nominated by CBN conservative Baptist Network Well now it's in New Orleans and I remember

I distinctly remember this as clear as day some I won't say who but the big conservatives will say in the

Southern Baptist Convention saying that's where we're gonna win. It's Louisiana. Those are our people

Those are the Bible Belt people and you see it was even worse now you could attribute that to a number of things

It's probably a combination of things but you have conservative churches leaving every week from the

Southern Baptist Convention And you're gonna have more of them leave. I think after this you can't stop that and then it becomes a numbers game

Where how do you? Is it even possible? Is that road map even possible? And then you have to form these coalitions like you have to as a conservative now you have to side you have to like kind of include nine marks and They're part of your coalition and they're terrible on CRT related stuff

But hey, they're gonna do the complementarian thing. So I guess they're allies now. So I mean

That's not all wrong But you just have to I guess take into account that when someone does win if that ever happens

On the conservative side, who are they gonna be appointing? Who are they gonna feel like they owe one to what if you have a coalition strategy?

Then the coal this is just inevitable. This is just part of politics. That means people from Organizations like nine marks who helped you win who might not be on board with you on everything are gonna expect

Nominations to various committees and stuff. So even if conservatives could hypothetically get in there Now they're that their coalition is so broad that They would have to probably give up some issues

But there I think there's a desperation for hope out there so so if Mike Law's amendment even if it's amended and Watered down if it passes that's gonna be a rallying cry if Rick Warren's church is disfellowshipped

That's gonna be a rallying cry, but you can't ignore the fact they lost the presidency And what they'll give reasons for it they'll probably say well it wasn't our year even though we've been told now

You know, Louisiana was a better It was gonna be easier there You know

Barbara was an incumbent you're gonna hear things like this like it just It's understandable and we'll get him next time

Kind of thing but they couldn't even get a two -thirds vote for financial accountability 1090 financial accountability, which is a standard for nonprofits to make sure that they are

Ethical in there they're handling of money and And they couldn't even get that vote passed and and so You know was it closed some people say it was but here's the thing

That's a no -brainer Like that's a really no bet that that's just a simple anti -corruption measure

Some of it like like voting out Bart Barber should be a no -brainer, but The fact that It was very lopsided that vote it shows you something it shows you that the stage tends to control for one thing, but it also shows you that the people there they either don't know what time it is or they are they they're in it for the wrong reasons and And that got level of corruption with I mean

I heard it the other day At this this Lutheran meeting thing. I was at someone was giving a presentation

They said look, it's true that you get the government. He was talking about politics but you get the government that you deserve people get the government that they deserve and And and that's just the truth of the matter.

Yeah, there's a separation between layman and the elites in the denomination, but If layman have to care right and if layman haven't cared or if they haven't really and I think this is more likely the case they have not been properly led and informed and rallied then

They're gonna get the government and in in this case in their denomination that they deserve And that's what we have.

We have that at the national level. You also have that in the Southern Baptist Convention and other denominations so I guess that's a little bit of a downer, but That's my take on it

For now, and we'll see what happens tomorrow. I'll probably try to bring you more tomorrow if I can

I'll be on the road most of the day. We'll see If not tomorrow then on Thursday, then

I should have some more on this topic But there's a lot going on the PCA is meeting.

They're gonna be making some decisions as I understand it tomorrow I just heard I think the Missouri Synod is not gonna they're gonna be meeting in the next few weeks and a lot of these denominations have their meetings and and even the

ELC or ELCA the Evangelical Free Church, I think they met if I'm not mistaken than last week or they made a big decision last week

So I'm gonna be looking more into that. Hopefully later in this week I was told that it's because of planting season after planting season is when they have these denominational meetings

So a lot of them around the same time But you know, there's a lot of stuff going on. Of course you have on the national level what's happening with Donald Trump and It's it's just crazy.

It's just crazy. But you know, it doesn't that make you thankful that we worship a

God who is not unstable or crazy or Someone that we have to fear in the sense of wondering if he's going to change his mind

But he's the same yesterday today and forever and our place in heaven is guaranteed with him We have truth that doesn't change we live we can live by it and it's going to reap the same rewards and results because it's timeless and it's part of his nature and In changing times like this where things just seem very like they're changing under your feet so fast.

They're very unstable It is good to remind yourself that there is someone that who does not change and that's who we worship so I will be

Giving you some of the lectures that I did and Stephen Wolfe and dr.

Russell Fuller did at the be not conformed conference either this week or next week and And I've talked a little bit more about that.

And so there's some hopeful messages in that so I look forward to that. I think they will encourage you and One of the things

I'll just say this briefly that I presented to the Lutherans was a model for For the next steps for denominations and churches that have

Had social justice incursions. What should they do now? That was my my topic and of course

I was challenged on it It was it was a it was kind of like a colloquy where you go back and forth and you talk about things but I want to Bring that information to you and and I think there is a path forward.

It's not on the big denominational stuff though It's gonna be like and Thomas Jefferson's natural aristocracy.

It's gonna be the working -class pastors who have walked the walk They're respected because people know them.

They love their sheep It's a shepherd model versus what we've seen so far from the SPC elites, which is the managerial.

It's Sometimes overly academic where they just nuance everything to death or go after evil in the abstract, but won't name names

Or it's just plain activism. It's just their leadership style is we're activists for a political change, but not

But but they incorporate some kind of a social justice message into their gospel So those three options the managers the

Academics and the activists are not they're not the way to go But there is a model that is the way to go and that's that's the shepherd model

And I think I think that's happening at a lot of local churches and many of them leaving the SPC right now

And I don't know that that's all bad. I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing I think if we have totalitarian governments moving forward

Trying to spy on churches which I think the Department of Homeland Security probably already is doing then it's it's better to have a decentralized approach and So I'm gonna be talking more about that Lord willing in the next few weeks and and that's a hopeful thing