G3 Interview with guys from Theology Driven and Gabe Hughes

Alright, today we have another of our interviews from G3, and so this will be some fun stuff that we have for you.

We will have some surprise guests pop in at the booth and so take over someone else's interview.

It was a great time. So we will have some discussions with a pastor who was formerly an atheist that we met there.

We're going to talk to some folks from CARM and a special podcast that we will start off with to start our interviews from G3.

Hope you guys enjoy this. Welcome to the

Rap Report with Andrew Rapaport, where we provide biblical interpretations and applications.

This is the Ministry of Striving for Eternity and the Christian Podcast Community. For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to strivingforeternity .org.

Alright welcome to the Rap Report. I am your host Andrew Rapaport. Today we have some interviews as I said, and the first one up is the guys from Theology Driven.

They drove themselves over to our booth at G3. I'm just going to say listen closely because the long heated debate that I've had with those guys, regular listeners you know, we like to bust on these guys, love them, they got a great podcast.

My running joke is that they actually are not driving while podcasting and the evidence is revealed.

Yes, yes, they accidentally revealed the evidence that proves in my mind that I'm right that they're not recording while driving.

Give a listen and you tell me if you agree with me. Here's the interview with the guys from Theology Driven.

Alright, so here we're at G3 and some guys drove in, they just kind of drove their way to the booth here.

So welcome to Theology Driven. A weekly mobile podcast in which we explore the open road of life through a biblical lens.

Without Kevin. I just was amazed that you guys got it right for once. We don't typically mess it up, it's usually just James that messes it up and Kevin has to edit it out.

Although, to be fair, I always delete the tracks that I mess up so that Kevin is forced to re -report it. That's how

I get away with sounding smarter. Although Kevin doesn't actually do that. Wait, wait, wait, you think you sound smarter on your podcast?

Then I could, not necessarily in general, but like as opposed to how

I could sound, yes. But there was a time when Kevin used to edit out the volume so that there were less spaces in between our pauses.

Oh, I used to do that too sometimes. So it sounded like we were really fast, like Al Mohler, like hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Well see, I used to be really fast, being from Jersey, when

I pastored at a Chinese church, I didn't quite realize that one of the ladies, like after I was probably the 3rd or 4th, maybe 5th message, and she says,

Pastor Andrew, can you do me a favor? I said, sure, what's that? She goes, could you slow down? I have to translate.

Oh wow. Wow. And I suddenly realized, oh yeah, I speak like a mile a minute.

And that's probably a tough language, that's got to be a really brutal language. She was taking my English and having to translate it in her head to Chinese.

Actually it's even worse, so Chinese, we speak Cantonese, is what my wife speaks, and the church would speak, and so we had a lot of Cantonese speakers, so Cantonese is even harder than Mandarin.

Yeah, I've heard of it. Mandarin has 5 tones, where Cantonese has 9. So basically at the beginning, middle, and end of a word, it can go up, it can go down, and the owner can say the same.

So that tone is a different word. So when I was trying to impress my future mother -in -law,

I was trying to ask if she had a good breakfast, which would literally be translated early meal, zhou tan, instead

I said zhou tan. You guys picked up the difference, right? Absolutely. I'm a Cantonese scholar, actually.

I asked her if she had a good abortion. Way to impress the future mother -in -law.

Her jaw hit the ground, and I'm like, I'm tapping my future wife, and I'm like, what did I say? What did I say? She's like, you don't want to know.

You just don't want to know. What did I say? To be fair, though, I think there's got to be a huge distinction between abortion and breakfast in that language.

I asked her literally for early pregnancy. So that's how different the language is, and so yeah, sometimes when

I try to order at a restaurant, because of my accent, I get funny looks, and I'm going, I don't know what

I just asked for. Don't go for brunch. Some food, I don't know how to say it in English.

You're the Americans they write newspapers about, unfortunately, and they're the guys from Jersey that we want to avoid, so they're not the figureheads of America, just so we're all clear.

Hey, hey, we are the figureheads. Have you not seen every Mafia movie? They're all from Jersey.

Goodfellas? They're probably from Jersey. Probably? Look, I've only witnessed to Ray Liotta.

I actually watched the movie only because someone asked me if I knew who I was doing open air evangelism, and this woman said, do you know who that was that you were preaching to?

And I said, no. She's like, that's Ray Liotta. I said, okay, who's that? She's like, you've never seen Goodfellas? I'm like, no.

So I actually watched it to see that. She actually was in the restaurant with him, sitting next to him, and they were discussing my preaching in the restaurant, three blocks away.

Wow. Wow. That's cool. And so she came out to, like, thinking she'd encourage me that they were discussing what

I was preaching about, and then he walked up, and I had no clue. Was he a nice guy?

I don't know. I mean, he just, there was a, I just remember him coming, and a crowd formed, and, you know, he stood there for a good couple minutes, and then he walked off.

Wow, no heckling or anything? That's good. At least he didn't heckle. I was going to try to pull, because I saw a crowd, and I was going to try to pull one of them in as a heckler, if I would have known,

I mean, I've preached to the folks, the cast from Jersey Shore. Oh, really?

Oh, wow. Really, really intelligent people they are, I got to tell you, I mean, the one time I'm standing on the box, and as they're walking by,

I'm kind of noticing something that obviously one of their actors or actresses, whatever you call it, reality star, didn't notice, and so you can tell when they come, because they have these huge cameras, like two in front and two in back, and we'd always love preaching there, because you'd always have a crowd, and they'd always try to get us on camera.

We had this unwritten rule, whoever was up on the box when they came, you're not getting off until your voice gives out, because they want you to sign off, that you will, you know, that they could use that footage, and we're just using them to build a huge crowd.

We'd have hundreds of people, because everyone's like, oh, Jersey Shore, let's see if we get on TV, and we'd be preaching nonstop, so I literally saw them coming, and at this point, it was toward the end of the season, they kind of were used to us, and they already knew

I wasn't going to give them permission, and so they weren't looking to stop, so I just went, look, there's proof of evolution, she has a tail, and sure enough, out of her pants is toilet paper from wherever she went to the bathroom, and it's all the way down, and she looks, and she like smacks her friend, you didn't warn me, this is on film, they're just going like this,

I'll make great footage, no one told her, so she stopped, and sure enough,

I grabbed the crowd for a little while. Oh, that's terrible. Hey, when you're an open air evangelist, you do things to keep a crowd, to get a crowd, it looked like she had a tail,

I mean, evolution must be true there. So how long have you been doing open air evangelism?

I've been doing open air, as far back as I can date, is 94, 95, and the only reason

I can date that far back is, at my church, we had a policy that if you're in a ministry, or doing some ministry, you had to have a philosophy of ministry that was submitted to a church, and so I had been doing the open air, and my church said, hey, you've been doing this a while, you're a member of our church, we want you to write a philosophy of ministry, so 94 is when

I wrote the philosophy of ministry, so I was probably doing it earlier than that, I know that I, the first time

I could kind of say that I was doing open air was back in the late 80s, but it wasn't really planned,

I knew nothing about open air, I was at college, and talking to two people, and some others came in, and before I knew it,

I ended up having 30 people, and then I was raising my voice to be heard, and I have a voice that could get loud, but I -

No way, what a shocker. Yeah, yeah, so - You've been open air preaching since I was four years old.

Ouch. Wow. You know, I'm just talking with Les Lamphere, and we were talking about the fact that I made a

Fonzie reference, and he didn't get it. Who's Fonzie? Yeah, thanks. You don't know, what? So - Happy days? Come on, man.

No, no, no, no, I know happy days, I know happy days. Yeah, so - Fonzie's the guy, is he the guy that jumped the shark? Yeah, in his motorcycle?

He's the one with the slick hair and the leather jacket? No, he jumped the shark, he jumped the shark in skis.

Yeah, you don't jump a shark in a motorcycle. Well, unless it's in a tank. He jumped other things in a motorcycle. Yeah, unless it's in a tank. I'll say a different one.

Was the shark in the tank, then you could do that. Science. Yeah. He did a bunch of stunts.

But he couldn't say that he was wrong. Kind of like a lot of people online that say they're

Christian, huh? Anyway. Right. So anyway - So speaking of that, so we're here at the conference, what are you excited for to see in this conference this week?

Well, see, I have a booth, so I'm going to be sitting here at this booth, giving away books. You've already given away books to us.

Yeah, but none of my books. That was a John MacArthur book, that was totally different. But still, thank you. Yeah, so actually,

I've come to G3, this is my third year. And in three years, so far, do you know how many talks

I've listened to? Probably one. I know you were there for Justin Peters last year.

Yeah, and so the two that Justin Peters, when he was speaking, I was there listening to those because I was helping set up and helping him with stuff.

So if we don't count those two, one, you're right. Is it because you're always stuck in the booth?

I'm just, yeah, I'm... Wow. You know, my board, they're like slave masters.

It's like they're in there listening, and I'm out here working. They're like, get to work, man, get to work.

Who are these guys? We need to have a conversation, I think we need to... They're here. They're actually, they'll be here. All right, we'll scold them.

Yeah, a couple of them will be here, I should say. I'll be like, do you know who we are? And he'll be like, no. And I'll be like, I figured that, but let me tell you anyways that you're wrong.

I'll be back in the spot. So I'm going to point out one of the board members, and I would love for you to do that.

Because I'd love to see when he says, do you know who I am? And you're going to go, no, but I'll give you a piece of my mind.

And he'll be like, really? Let me choke you unconscious. Oh, it's that guy. It's that guy. He's a black belt in karate and jiu -jitsu.

It's a jiu -jitsu. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah, you don't mess with jiu -jitsu. Yeah, so he and I rolled once, and his daughter decided to, she's like, hey, dad, when you roll with Mr.

Rapport, can you do a smother choke? And Frank's a pretty big guy, so he's got a lot of weight to help with the smother.

That's just a painful choke. It's basically what it does. It pushes all the air out of your lungs, and when you try to breathe in, there's nothing.

You breathe in, and it just burns. And you're just like. When I was in the Navy, we had to do vessel board training.

And part of that training, you're required to be choked out as a part of the training.

Anytime you do something, whether it be holding a taser or holding pepper spray, you're supposed to experience that on yourself so you know what it's like.

So we partnered up, and we were to choke each other out. So I choked out my partner, and they're out for eight seconds, ten seconds, and they're drooling everywhere.

It's awful. And so my partner goes to choke me out, and he's a smaller guy than I am, so he has a tough time.

He can't do it. I'm like, ah, this is hurting. This is hurting. And the instructor was a former

Marine, retired, with biceps the size of the Eiffel Tower. Just huge.

And this guy comes over to me, and he says, I have never not choked somebody out.

Are you ready? And I was like, I guess. So he starts squeezing really tight. I'm like, it's not working.

And I just black out. And it felt like I was out for probably eight hours. I felt like I had an eight -hour nap.

It was amazing, yeah. That's the difference. When you do it, we had a guy who literally,

I thought he was joking. One of the girls was demonstrating a choke, and he was snoring.

He went completely out. We thought he was just joking. Because you just cut off the circulation, and he's out.

He was just out, and all of a sudden, it's like, whoa, okay. It's not what you thought it would look like. Yeah, it was pretty awesome.

Well, I know. So we're making up for the fact that we didn't record at the Bible Museum. Yeah. I know, sad day.

You, James, need to listen to your wife. I'm just saying. Yeah, we had an entire lunch.

And Stacey's like, we need to be recording right now. We had an entire conversation. Yes, I know. But did we not realize that Andrew is a

Sabbatarian, but just doesn't want to call himself that? That is true. I will say,

I had a very different understanding of the way you were expressing it. I think probably some of that was we had a different understanding of terms, and then we hashed that out, and that was actually very helpful.

Well, I was going to ask, because I approach things a little differently. And that's why it's like you guys thought

I was dispensational. You addressed the typical dispensational view, and you found out that I don't really fit into camps too well.

So I'm rapportian. If you want to know what that is, you have to ask me. It's rapportianism.

It's what rapport believes. Is that what the ring's for? Yeah, the

R on the ring. It represents that, yeah. Actually, the sad thing is, so I got this ring, my father got it for me when I was 18, and I got the

R so I could give it to my son when he turns 18. My son's like, I don't like rings. So I guess

I keep it. It's a, yeah, it must be a younger generation thing. I'm not a big fan of rings either. I only wear my wedding ring.

You see how he just calls himself younger that way? It's, that was that subtle slam of, yeah, you're old,

Andrew. That's the second old reference he just made. He does that a lot. That one was accidental, to be fair.

That was an accidental old remark. I didn't mean it to say that you're old. I'm going to believe it's accidental because I don't think he's smart enough to actually

It was accidental. And I'm not smart enough. But I actually like rings. The only reason I don't wear them, because they're super flashy, and sometimes

I feel very prideful wearing some of them, so. Hint, hint. Well, so the thing is, so like this, these two both came from my father.

This is my father's. My mother gave it to him at his first wedding anniversary. So I have, I have some jewelry that I got that I wear because it's sentimental.

When my father dies, people are really going to have an issue with the ring that I get when he dies. But yeah,

I mean, it's people, it is kind of this thing like feel, you know, when you're in ministry, people have this expectation, and I have a kind of well -to -do family.

And I was, you know, my father sold his Rolex that he was going to give me when he passed away so he could buy a boat.

And so then I guess to make up for it, he bought me a Rolex. So I have a Rolex. And it's like, my wife is like, are you going to wear that to, you're going to a church, and you're going to ask for money and you're wearing a

Rolex. Like, yeah, I guess that doesn't quite work well. That's true. You know, I'm pulling up in a

Mercedes Benz that my brother gave me. So it's like, you know, I really, I really am in the wrong.

I should be working with, you know, Joel Steen or someone because I guess, you know. And CryptoDollarsJay.

Yeah, yeah. I don't know what they're playing over there, but it sounds good. Sounds interesting. Yeah, we'll have to walk around and see.

So one of the things that you're most interested in, oh wait, the thing that you guys were most interested in at G3 was coming to the

Striving Fraternity booth, right? Absolutely. So you can hear, be here to record on The Wrap Report because your recording at the

Bible Museum did not work out so well. Here's the thing. Let's get the record straight.

You guys recorded on your way to the Museum of the Bible, correct? Correct. The car noise was so loud that it just couldn't.

Yeah, it wasn't salvageable. So we had to trash it. Okay. I really appreciate you guys admitting that you use a soundboard for all the other times.

Oh my goodness. Because the one time you actually tried to do it in a car. No, not too long. You couldn't use the audio.

It was a different car. It's funny. Kevin actually used his wife's car to drive up there and I guess we didn't realize how we've never recorded in her car before and it was bad.

Well, that's why we don't record in my car because we tried that early on and it was noticeable. So Kevin's got a nice car.

I think for the record, so far, I think I have no video evidence. All I saw was something.

You will not get video evidence. And so as far as I know, my theory is still being held that you guys are not actually driving when you're doing theology.

You're just using a soundboard. You can't see logic either and it exists. I'm with you.

You know, I look at it this way. Andrew just made a really good point. There's the theory of evolution and then there's the theory that we're not actually driving.

That's really helpful. Yeah, I think that's really good. That's really helpful. I'm glad to see. You heard it here first on the rap report that Andrew is in the same camp.

I would love to see what you would do if you did an intro for the rap report. I would totally do it if you wanted me to. I'd be like, welcome to the rap report.

But obviously it would sound cool. Yeah, I know. I can't do the preacher stutter, man. I've tried. No, you know what

I'm talking about where the preacher gets up and he goes, and he said, and he's like really, really excited. And I'm like, yeah,

I can't do that. I guess I've never seen that story. It happens all the time. It's a Baptist thing. It's probably a

Southern Baptist thing. Or not. I've been to a lot of Southern Baptist churches. Not Southern Baptist, just a

Southern Baptist. Yeah, you might be accurate. Me up North, you don't get that.

I get it. In the South, and they're Baptist. I'm not from the South though, so that doesn't offend me. I'm from the

West. I'm from the left coast. Yeah, the far left. Yeah, the far left coast. I'm not proud of it, but it's true.

It is what it is. Do you resemble that remark? I do. That's the question. Okay. So you're a leftist.

I resemble it. So what are you guys looking forward to? G3. Interrupting James.

This is actually my first time coming to G3. Last year, I tried to come, but I got the flu.

And everybody was okay with me coming because I was recovering, but my pastor said, you're not allowed to come. And then he came back with the flu.

It is so true. Yes, that happened, I remember. Because we were like, come on, man. He's like, no, I can't get sick.

Yeah. And then he got sick. So Kevin, do you guys hear that?

Kevin had told me, I think at the Museum of the Bible. I think it's when I heard it, when he said the first time we met here at G3.

Did he tell it? Sure. Yeah. Okay. I want to hear what he told you guys. That may be more entertaining. Basically, he went up to go see

Justin Peters, and he asked some random dude, Haggard looking guy, older man, to take a photo of him and him and Justin.

And it turns out that was Andrew Rappaport. And Andrew remembered meeting

Kevin because you didn't know who Kevin was, but you recognized his face. And then later on when they met,

Andrew's like, well, we've met before. And Kevin's like, when? He's like, I took your photo of you and Justin Peters when you cast me aside like some servant boy.

Yeah, it was pretty terrible. Awkward. Yeah, it was pretty awkward. So he goes, I thought you were just... No, he actually recognized me because he...

But not right away. Uh -oh. Speaking of... What? There's trouble. There's trouble over here.

Yeah, we came in here and realized that we're in a booth next to one of the greatest radio voice like ever.

Why don't I just give him... Let me just give him my seat real quick. I was going to say,

I don't even want my voice on this. Just let him come off. Oh, I was going to grab him later.

What am I doing? Oh, I don't know. We're just recording. I'm going to kick over everything is what I'm going to do. We're just...

You know these guys from Theology Driven Podcast? I love Theology Driven. They are a great podcast.

You guys listen to his, right? Yes. Oh, yeah. Okay. You kind of have to listen to podcasts that are better so that, you know...

Scott said that you have to listen to podcasts that are better because that's how Scott thinks he learns to get better.

Well, my podcast was really only average until I got my wife on. And then we stepped up a level once Becky got on too.

So you obviously enjoy embarrassing your wife, don't you? As I do. You know, that's the reason my wife doesn't like traveling with me.

I can't imagine. Yeah, I do. Okay, so true story. We got the guys from Carm on the side over here for us.

So they'll laugh at this and they've already heard this story probably. So we're at a conference in California.

Matt Slick is sitting there. And he's already laughing. He already knows it's the story. We're in California.

They had just passed same -sex marriage at this point. And he brings his wife. And he wants everyone to recognize his wife.

He's like, come on, honey, raise your hand. Raise your hand so everyone can see you. And I know she's not going to raise her hand because I know her.

So I proudly lift my hand up really high. It's probably the only time

I've seen Matt Slick turn completely red. And he's like, he goes, not you, honey.

Wait, that's legal in this state now, though, right? You know, it only occurred to me that Christian apologetic research ministry booth next to yours is

Carm. It only just occurred to me. I'm so used to calling it

Carm. I don't even think about what it stands for. They should know the text.

Yes, that's right. I know the text. That's right. That's because nobody actually knows what stands for.

That's right. It's just for what? Well, yeah, you know, they should do like KFC and just change it from Kentucky Fried Chicken to KFC.

They should just change it permanently to Carm. He's wearing it now. I was trying to improve his booth over there.

I kept putting the surviving fraternity. Well, who knows what kind of conspiracy theories will come out of that?

Because as soon as KFC did that, people assumed that they couldn't legally call it chicken and they were changing the. No, actually, there is no.

No, actually, there's a there's a real story of why they changed the name. So I had an attorney who told me that what ended up.

So here's the backdrop. A couple buys a house to go in the attic and obviously a previous owner never went in the attic.

There's stuff from previous owners up in the attic and they're going through stuff where they found a box of recipes and one of them was some fried chicken and they were like, wow, this tastes an awful lot like the

Colonel's Secret Recipe. So they sent it in to Kentucky Fried Chicken asking, hey, is this the

Colonel's Secret Recipe? The response was a lawsuit and they went, oops.

Well, it turns out they bought a house with the original recipe.

And so the attorney said the judge judged that they owned the original recipe. Oh, and therefore, now all of a sudden they were in for a big reverse suit.

And so the settlement was they had to change their name. And so I think the original there's some of the there's like some that were not part of the certain part of the franchise that can keep the name, but the others became

KFC. So if you see a Kentucky Fried Chicken, it's actually separate from KFC. Yes, I think that my understanding is that's supposed to be interesting.

OK, it's supposed to be like there's like a certain ones that were the original. And so you're always told that the reason why they did that was because they were trying to avoid the impression of eating really fatty food that was called

Kentucky Fried Chicken. So they just abbreviated it to KFC. That's what I that's what I keep hearing.

Who cares? That's the best part. I know, it's the fried part. That's why I go there. That's why you eat that. I don't care if it's chicken in it.

I want the fried. Yeah, that's what I'm here for. Even if it's dog, fried dog is good. Scott didn't like that part.

Scott, don't don't go to Korea. We had some of that. I don't plan on it. We knew some of the they they were teaching.

They went to Korea for a year and they thought while they're in Korea for a year, they should get a pet.

And they went into a store and they decided, oh, look at that cute little puppy.

I'll walk. So I'll take that one. And they said, OK, they took the dog, went in the back, came back out a little bit, gave him a bag.

And that was the dog. Suddenly realized this was not a pet store.

It was a butcher shop. Welcome to Korea. Poor woman was horrified because she picked it out because it's so cute.

So I was going to give my seat back to Scott. But yeah, Scott ran off. Yeah, he scared him off.

So so you do listen to Theology Driven? I do. I love the concept behind it of driving around and talking theology.

You're going to need to listen. You hit a sore spot right there. We just proved they're not driving around for sure.

These are all speculations on Andrew's part. Disclaimer. For folks listening, the look on your face and Scott's face,

OK? Because I just asked them. I'm like, they said they were recording this video, this audio on the way to the

Museum of the Bible where we were meeting. And I said, and you couldn't use it? No, the sound quality was so bad we couldn't use any of it.

And yet their podcast doesn't sound really clear. So that proves when they were in the car, if they say it's a different car.

But clearly, that proves that it's a soundboard. Yeah, it's a soundboard. As I as I play them, we're going to have to have you down just for an episode and drive you around.

That's what the Museum of the Bible Trip was supposed to be. You guys left early. Well, we didn't get it.

Well, you know, I blame that solely on Kevin. Well, the years that I was in radio, which

I did radio for 20 something years, when I was a program director, at one point, I wanted to do a program, either the early morning drive or the drive at five, where the hosts are actually driving around.

So they're experiencing traffic with everybody else who's driving with them. But at the time, the technology just wasn't there to be able to do that.

No, you could not do that in Jersey. Because I mean, you can't use that. This was Kansas. You can't use that kind of language on the radio.

I mean, it's just a different kind of traffic. You know, people sit there. It's like, you go through the law and the gospel, and you're sitting there and you ask, have you ever been angry?

They say, no. Clearly, you've never driven in New Jersey. You've never. So we've almost died a few times.

I mean, there's been some people that angrily cut us off or like a truck that comes out of nowhere.

There was one time we actually went to go pick up some long 2x4s, and we were in my car, actually.

And so I'm in a Honda Civic. So what I do is I lay the back seats down, and I run it through the trunk, and it goes all the way up to the front where the steering wheel's at.

And so I was trying to make a U -turn while we're sitting recording, and all the 2x4s, there's probably about like eight of them, stacked up high, they shift and jam my wheel stuck in the

U -turn. So I'm like turning right into the median. And Kevin's like, whoa, what are you doing? What are you doing? I'm like, stop pushing.

Grab on the boards. Somebody get these boards. He's telling that story, but he actually wasn't driving. Well, that's what you keep saying, yeah.

So on the wrap report, they said, look, I'm lowering the window.

I showed with my soundboard that I was able to do all those same things. I could add an ambulance.

I added the rain. He might have actually been recording in his car when I do that. We don't have video report or video evidence that he was using a soundboard.

That's true. So reverse, yes. That's like a reverse argument. We will add in, I will do the next time,

I'll put some crickets next time you're talking something smart. Well, you wouldn't be the only one. Kevin's done that already.

Yeah. But yeah, so I love the concept, driving around talking theology. It kind of adds to the dynamic of, you know,

Deuteronomy 6, wherever you are, where you go, by the way, whether you sit or whether you rise, you continue to remember these things that I have written to my people.

And so they're continuing to talk about those theological things, even in car rides. So encouraging the conversations all the more.

That's sort of what that verse was supposed to be. I remember a rabbi, I was in a rabbi's house, he was trying to convert me back to Judaism.

And we were talking about that passage. Yeah. And we're exegeting the passage. And I'm trying to emphasize to him that the importance of that passage, the command, is to love the

Lord your God with all your mind, heart, soul, and strength. He's trying to convince me that the command is to put that passage on your doorposts and on your wrists and between your eyes.

And they actually take that and they'll put it on a door. It's called the mezuzah. And they'll put it in a thing called a phylactery, a little box that they tie to their hands, and they tie to the front lids of their eyes.

And they take that literal. And they say, no, that's the command. I'm like, yeah, you're just really not getting what this text is saying here.

We have a family in our church that moved into a house, and we could tell that the previous family were

Jewish because of what they had in the doorpost. Yes. Yeah, well, I walked into a home, I remember when

I was looking to buy a home, and I walked in and I immediately said, Orthodox Jew lives here.

And the person was like, how do you know that? Because, I mean, many Jews, even the more liberal ones will have the mezuzah.

Yeah. But they have all the light switches have the thing that's set for sunset and sunrise.

So on the Sabbath, they don't have to turn the light on and off. It's automatic. Therefore, if they're not actually pushing the switch.

It's not work. It's not. Well, it's not about the work. This is how I feel. You don't understand. It's not about the work.

It's about creating a fire. Turning the light on is a spark, and that's lighting a fire. But wait, you're programming something else to create the fire.

So you're still doing it. You're bond serving as a computer. I remember once I had an

Orthodox guy who lived in my neighborhood, and he wanted to watch one of the tennis matches.

He asked if I could come over and turn his TV on for him, because he couldn't do it. He forgot to leave it on. That's cheating.

Well, Andrew, I do got to get going. They're about to start up over there. But I definitely appreciate you having me on. So you need to listen to your wife more.

Yes, I 100 % agree. Who's nodding? Who is nodding? Yes. We had a great discussion on the

Sabbath, and she was telling him, you should be recording this. You should be recording this. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after we get done, he goes,

I should have been recording this. Hence my better half. So yeah, but I got to get going.

So thank you. Good having you guys on. Thank you so much. All right. So that was theology driven.

And what we got for you now is the great guy from Christian Apologetics Research Ministry, Luke Wayne.

He's one of the researchers over with CARM. And so we're going to talk to him a tad bit about King James Onlyism.

But before we do, want to just give you guys a heads up and let you know to be checking out the other podcasts that we have on the

Christian Podcast Community. We have Theology Gals, which is one of the newest editions.

They've been recording for a while, but they've joined the community. And starting up, well, this week, we hope, he's just waiting for his intro music, is

Justin Peters. You can start subscribing to his podcast called Didache. You can do it one or two ways, search for Didache.

And you go, wait a minute, I have no idea how to spell that. That's okay. Just type in Justin Peters, and it's basically going to be the one that has his logo with the tree in it.

It's going to be the one that says Didache. So just subscribe to that. So when he starts recording, you have that.

We have Apologetics Live, which is Matt Slick and I. We do a live show every Thursday night, 8 o 'clock.

And you can go to apologeticslive .com to join that, to ask your theological or apologetic questions.

We have another one that's going to be starting up soon for you to check out called So You Want to Be a Podcaster. Colleen Sharp, who is the administrator of the

Christian podcast community, she and I will be helping folks learn how to be better podcasters.

So check that out as well. To remind you, because not everyone got the message, if you're looking for those

Monday through Friday two -minute rap reports, they're on a new feed. You go to rap report daily, and that's where you're going to get those.

We got a lot of new podcasts that are waiting to come on. We got some that have already been approved, and we are waiting to send out applications to about, well, we're going to send them to about a dozen people, but not all of them will be approved.

And so those that will be approved, you're going to start seeing them pop up probably in February. So please check out the

Christian podcast community. You want to look at all of our podcasts? You can go to christianpodcastcommunity .org,

and now on to our interview with Luke Wayne. So here we are at G3 with Luke Wayne from CARM, Christian Apologetics Research Ministry.

Folks that are listening to the rap report, you're familiar with that. Matt and I do a regular... Matt Slick is the founder of CARM.

He and I do a regular apologetics live podcast and show every Thursday night.

So Luke, you're one of the researchers for CARM. Yes. And recently on our apologetics live, we're talking about a lot of work you just came out with recently, a whole slew of stuff on King James version only.

Yes, yes. So people in that movement really love you now, don't they? I'm probably their favorite person.

I get fan mail every day. So here's a question

I have. Because you've been studying this for a while. So what do you think is the big issue? Why is it you think people get so hung up on something like King James only?

King James only is just one of the most recent manifestations of a long history of what

I call sacred translationism, which is a translation gets rendered in a language, it becomes really popular generations later.

It's now the tradition. Everybody looks to it. It has a sacred sound to it. That old timey feel that you don't speak anymore now sounds like, well, that's the spiritual language.

And people cling to that. It was true with the Septuagint and the Greek speaking Christians in the early church, the

Vulgate. When I go to Bulgaria, it's true of the old church Slavonic there, the Amish hold to the

Martin Luther, old German translation. It's all over the place. King James only ism is just our modern experience of that same sacred translationism.

That's just a human impulse to grab on to something traditional and spiritualize it. I'm laughing because as you're saying this,

I'm just thinking, and I'm sure you've probably been in church where you've seen this, where someone speaks in modern vocabulary.

All of a sudden they start praying and all of a sudden all of their prayers are like, you know, Elizabethan English.

It's like, wait, what? Somehow God speaks King James English. It's like praying in a

King James English. Which is, you know, one of the funny things that, as you're familiar with Mormonism, and one of the things that always gets me with that is

Sandra Tanner had an article, I think Gerald put out, where they looked at all of the way that these endows are used in the

Book of Mormon. And they realized that the only places that the these endows are actually used properly.

Or when it's quoting, plagiarizing the King James. So people don't even realize there's a time to say thee and a time to say thou.

And obviously Joseph Smith didn't know that. It's thee and thou are singular. Ye is plural.

Yeah, there's a whole system. Joseph Smith was too far removed from Elizabethan English to know.

So what are you working on right now? If you can share, what are you researching? I've been writing articles on a variety of things.

What I'm settling into at the moment for a long -term research project is to write on Armstrongism, Herbert W.

Armstrong, the false prophet of the 20th century, and Worldwide Church of God split into a variety of factions that are out there.

But it's a lot of a weird doctrine of God, but also a lot of...

I see. You have to keep the Old Testament feasts or you're not saved. You have to keep the seventh -day

Sabbath in their particular way or you're not saved. What's their particular way? You have to attend their meetings at one of their organizations on the seventh day of every

Sabbath. Or just saying, I rest on Saturday. No, sorry, that's not going to cut it.

You've got to be one of them on Saturday or you're not saved. There's no other group that does things like that.

No, not at all. No, actually, what my intention is after writing on this, it would be involving much of the same research to then go on and discuss the

Hebrew roots movement and the Torah observance movement within evangelical

Christianity and deal with that as well. That would actually be probably a better one

I was going to say to do, but that'd be one to do because I get so many questions. Because of my

Jewish background, I get so many questions on Hebrew roots. So many people that want to know about it.

So that's an important one that there's really nothing out there really written on it.

So I'd encourage you to do that. So I know we're going to have a bunch of people coming to our booths here.

We're right next to each other. You're stuck next to me all week long, you poor thing, man.

It is rough. It is rough. Thanks for coming. Hey, it was a pleasure to be here. All right. So that was Luke Wayne, great brother in the

Lord and great researcher over at Karma. We were talking about Mormonism. And so just to let you guys know of a book that we have out on Mormonism that you can get at the

Striving for Eternity store. Check out this book that came out last year in 2018.

Looking for strategies that will help you engage in meaningful conversations with members of the Mormon Church? Well, if so, take a look at Sharing the

Good News with Mormons, a new book produced by Harvest House Publishers and edited by Mormonism Research Ministries Eric Johnson and Sean McDowell.

Sharing the Good News with Mormons includes 24 helpful essays from two dozen Christian apologists, scholars, and pastors.

Pick up your copy at the Utah Lighthouse Bookstore or order directly from mrm .org.

Hey, Todd Friel, what would be a good book to get if I wanted to learn about Mormonism and some other religions?

Can you tell me? Ding dong, Jehovah's Witnesses. Ding dong, Mormons. Christian, are you ready to defend the faith when false religions ring your doorbell?

Do you know what your Muslim and Jewish friends believe? You will if you get Andrew Rappaport's book,

What Do They Believe? When we witness to people, we need to present the truth. But it is very wise to know what they believe.

And you will get Andrew Rappaport's book at whatdotheybelieve .com. And I think that is a very good book to have.

Maybe I'm a little bit biased there, but it was 14 years of research so that you don't have to.

Studying from original sources, what I tried to do is not refute those religions but actually tell you what they believe.

Why? So that when you talk to a Mormon, you talk to a Muslim, you talk to someone that believes those beliefs, you can say this is what they believe and they're going to respect you, not reject you out of hand because you'll be accurate in understanding what they believe.

That's the thing. I've run into many Muslims that tell me I believe in three gods. No. And immediately

I don't trust anything they're going to say about my religion. Why? Because they just misrepresented it.

This next interview that we have is with Pastor Sean Hill. He's the pastor of a church plant and got to meet him.

It was very interesting to talk with him because he was someone who went to atheism and then recognized that that wasn't true.

So I hope that you'll enjoy this interview with a former atheist turned pastor.

All right, well I'm here at G3 again. I'm with Pastor Sean Hill. He is from... Newcastle, Pennsylvania.

Yeah, well Newcastle, Pennsylvania and it's... I forgot the name of the church already. You just told me. Discipleship Community Church.

Discipleship Community Church. Now here's the thing, folks. I asked him to come over and chat with us because he comes from an interesting background and he went from one background to being a pastor and one of the folks in his church came over, shared with me his story and I was like, oh, that's really cool.

Let's get this recorded. So what was your background? I was an atheist before I became a

Christian and now I'm a pastor. So how did that transformation occur?

Um, so yeah, what ended up happening was I was invited by a church member, a lady from a church and she just kept bugging me and bugging me and bugging me to come and I ended up saying yes.

She was a girl my age and so I finally went and my now fellow pastor,

Pastor Craig Cole, he was preaching expositional Bible preaching and teaching straight from the

Bible and it was the first time I actually understood what was going on with the Bible. Like, I didn't know what

John and Mark and Luke and all those names were at the top of the Bible. I was like, what's Philemon?

Yeah, things like that. So, um. So did you have, like I had, because the first time I got the book of Job, like what?

Yeah, yeah, it was stuff like that. Like Genesis, like I always just heard weird things about the

Bible. Grew up with, in a family of, my mom is a

ACG Catholic, Easter Christmas guilt, say, and then my dad is a kind of go with the flow kind of religion guy.

You know, just, hey if you want to believe in Buddha, believe in Buddha. If you want to believe in Allah, believe in Allah. Whatever. Just religions, however you want it.

And I just became an atheist because I got into the world view and thought, wow, there's a lot of injustice in the world and things like that.

So I said, I'm going to be an atheist. But when I became a Christian, that transition was from hearing the word of God, being taught expositionally to where I learned how to read the

Bible. And that's what impacted my faith the most was learning how to read the

Bible and reading, starting off with Matthew, like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

This went straight through and I just got pierced to the soul reading the

Sermon on the Mount. That's what hit me the most was when I read, if you even look at a woman with lust in your eyes, you've committed adultery.

And what really did it for me was that because it just got out of relationship with a girl that I had sexual intercourse with before marriage.

And I knew according to the Bible, that was probably not the best thing. But when

Jesus spoke with authority, that's what really hit me. Yeah, I think you hit on a key thing that a lot of people don't understand.

You said when you teach the Bible and learn it expositionally, you actually learn it and that's when it speaks.

Some of these pastors nowadays, they don't want to do that. They think, oh, I have to be entertaining. I have to make it so people are excited to be here.

The Bible is exciting enough if you preach it properly. Yeah, when I was a kid, my parents did send me to a

Sunday school and I remember being a kid and my buddy and I were a little bit rebellious.

But I would say for the right reasons, we wanted to be with the adults. We wanted to be in the big boy church, we would say.

So we snuck out, we went to the big boy church and every time I heard a sermon there, I was like, what are they even talking about?

Can somebody just teach me how to read this thing? Those are my thoughts. But I always just thought the

Bible is for adults and that was probably one of the things that kind of led me to being an atheist was no one ever sat down and read the

Bible with me because my father, he was unable to read. So he couldn't read it to me.

My mom was Catholic so she was taught not to read the Bible. So just a lot of mess there.

So Sean, when you started trying to believe in atheism, what do you think was the strongest argument that you thought that convinced you that atheism was right?

Well, what stuck with me was the problem of evil, would probably be the philosophical definition.

For me at the time, it was just my grandfather passed away, I wear his ring, his ring is going to be my wedding ring.

When he passed away, it was like I lost my best friend. So one of my friends, she said about atheism and that if God did exist, why would he allow bad things to happen?

And I thought about that and I said, yeah, that's probably true. When a series of other unfortunate events took place in my life, my grandmother passed away,

I started looking into atheism and ended up finding teachers that I loved.

Where did you find those teachers? Going on the internet. I just looked up, there is no

God, and instantly Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens came up.

I'm still actually sad that Christopher Hitchens passed away, even though he's not a believer. But yeah, he is now.

He believes God exists now for sure. Oh, yes. He knows without a doubt, unfortunately.

Yes. But you know, you bring up, because that's typically the number one issue people think, the problem of evil.

Yes. And yet, when you think about it, how could there be evil without God? And this is the question

I always ask, when people say, well, what do you do with evil in the world? What do you mean, what do I do with it?

I mean, if they believe that we're in a purely material world, there is no God, how do you account for evil in that world?

Because you can't account for anything immaterial. You can't account for morality. It's just subjective.

Yeah. That was one of the hardest things for me, which led me to depression and even suicidal thoughts, was coming across atheism that felt empowering at first.

You can create your own destiny. You know, Richard Dawkins said, you know, why worry about God?

He doesn't exist anyway. You know, and I would think about that, and I was like, okay, yeah, at first it was good, but then

I read stuff from Richard Dawkins like, there is no good, there is no evil, there's nothing but pitiless indifference.

Yeah, and the thing is that they're trying to get around the fact that they're accountable to God. Oh, yeah.

And that's really what it comes down to. Oh, you pretend like evil doesn't exist and we're not accountable. Yeah. And yet the problem of evil is not a problem for the

Christian. It's a problem for the atheist. Yes. Because they can't account for it, but they know it exists.

So when they say, well, when they say evil exists, right there, they got a problem. And I had a guy in New York who once, he thought it was going to be a tough question for me.

He's like, he kept shouting, there is no God because there's evil in the world. And I said, well, you tell me, how can you have evil without God?

Yeah. And he suddenly, it was like, he didn't, he didn't, no. He says, well, you tell me what evil is. I said,

I didn't say it exists. You did. How can you have evil without God? He's like, well, you tell me.

And so he says, what is evil? I said, well, evil is the absence of good. Good is defined by the nature of God. How can you have evil without God?

And he realized, well, I got a problem and he left. You know, he was one of my regular hecklers.

So I see him every week. But the thing is, is that evil is not a problem for the Christian. It really is a problem for the, for the unbeliever.

Yeah. I like it. What Frank Turek says about it. He says, you know, the atheist have to sit on God's lap to slap him in the face, essentially.

So it, it was that kind of worldview that just, just led me into depression.

Like I actually ended up into nihilism and, and just felt like the, yeah.

Well, how can I be mad at the guys who bully me in school when that's what makes them happy? Like one guy,

I, you know, which is what led me into atheistic thought was, you know, he was a, he was a

Catholic guy and, you know, he did like the Ash Wednesday, I'm giving up chocolate for a week kind of thing.

And I just, you know, I had an idea that they're religious people, they're Christian people. And when

I needed the most grace, when my grandfather passed away, he told me your grandfather died to get away from you.

Wow. And so I had a not so fun view of religious people had a not so fun view of.

And that's sometimes people say some really bad things. And, but you know, like you're saying,

God could use that even, even if it pulls you away for a while, he brings you to himself. In the end, that's, that's good.

Well, I have, I have no qualms anymore of what, what God has put me through anymore.

Because I've experienced every year we had a family member pass away. My father, he, he ended up disability because he had heart issues and things like that.

And a lot of good, a lot of bad, a lot of cancer in my family.

And even myself, like experiencing death so much as somebody who was depressed, it, it, it just made me feel more like life was pointless.

And so that, that's the, that's why I think why I came to Christ to begin with.

Well, I thank you for coming out here. Are you enjoying G3? Oh, yes. Absolutely.

I, I enjoy it so much. It's, it's awesome to see some of my heroes preaching and teaching the word of God and to, to meet a fellow like evangelists and it's, it's amazing to me.

Do you mind if I say one more thing, if that's okay? About just my own conversion experience.

I solely give my conversion experience solely to the sovereignty of God to, to bring me to salvation.

Because apart from Him taking me, doing work in me, introducing me to the word of God, introducing to me to, to like the case for Christ and Christian apologetics and introducing me to just reading the word of God for what it is,

I wouldn't be saved today. And many atheists, if they listen to your, your stuff, they just need to know, they really actually need to study what the word of God says.

That's right. Before making a judgment call. Yeah, and that's, you know, it's a good point because I don't know how many people on the street,

I want to get a t -shirt that says, come debate with me for hours about a book you never read. Yes.

Because that's really what it is. I mean, I'll ask them, the Bible's full of contradictions. Give me one. And they're like, there's so many of them.

Then it should be easy to give me one. And the reality is they can't give me one because they've never read it. Yeah. They've only read what people said about it.

And, you know, that's not good science. I mean, these guys who try to say they believe about science, right? Yeah.

And I, I read a skeptic sanitated Bible. I have one that I actually use for Bible study to keep myself sharp.

And, uh. So you know what the answer, what the challenges are going to be. Yes. I know what the challenges are going to be. And, um, you know, and, and never in, in talking with an atheist, have they brought up one of these contradictions.

And if they do, there's usually an easy answer. Yeah. That's what I find. You know, some people are afraid to speak to atheists.

And I usually find it's really easy because they don't, I hate to say it this way, but a lot of times they don't ask really good questions.

They're usually logical fallacies and, but they sound really good. And because everyone's saying it, they think it's right.

Yeah. And, and for me, like atheists, like other atheists are easy to talk to because I've, I've been in the mindset, but where, where you need to look, look at is just seeing them as people, you know, because yeah, there's, there's always that behind the argument that the reason they bring up the problem of evil is probably because they had something bad happen to them in their life and, um, and things like that.

Or, or if many times they're bringing up the intellectual arguments, just to be honest, it's, it's mostly out of pride.

Yeah. And that's where I was. It was mostly pride when I brought up the intellectual stuff, but when it came to like the emotional problem of evil, it was, it was, yeah, out of that.

Well, Sean, thanks for coming on. Oh yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I, I'm blessed by it.

All right. All right. So that was Pastor Sean, and that is a wrap on The Wrap Report.

Next week we'll wrap up with a couple of interviews we have with, well, two great brothers that I consider friends,

Fred Butler and Kofi. And so they were there and we had talked with both of them.

So that'll be next week on The Wrap Report. That'll wrap up our interviews that we took from G3, but I got some really great interviews coming up.

If you listen to Wretched, you've already heard that Todd Friel is going to be coming on. And so we're looking forward to that.

We're going to talk about discernment and knowing where to draw the line.

So look forward to that on The Wrap Report. Remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.