Is Slavery Objectively Wrong?

The Moral Charge of Slavery and Modern Atheism

You had 100 million dead from Stalin, atheism in Russia, you know, 60 million in China, Cambodia, 1 .7 million dead, you know, North Korea, 1 .6 million dead, Yugoslavia, 570 ,000, you know, and the list goes on.

But, I mean, you have, you know, 200 million people dead in the 20th century because of atheism.

Right, yeah, because of atheism and the conclusions that basically you have to come to in order to be an atheist. Warning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences. These audiences may include, but are not limited to, professing Christians who never read their Bible, sissies, sodomites, men with man buns, those who approve of men with man buns, man bun enablers, white knights for men with man buns, homemakers who have finished Netflix but don't know how to meal plan, and people who refer to their pets as fur babies.

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Why This Question Is Emotionally Charged in America

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll seek to answer the age-old question, is slavery objectively wrong?

And Tim, I think this is one of those conversations that, more often than not, it's a very emotional type of conversation for a lot of people, in sort of an understandable way, especially if you have grown up in the U .S., and really the South, because it's something that is taught about in schools, obviously.

Our country has a very specific history when it comes to slavery in general. Obviously, we all know about the transatlantic slave trade that was going on during colonial times. We know about chattel slavery that was going on until, what, 200 years ago, I think.

And so, it's something that our country, the U .S., has very specific ties to, and so that really influences how we look at this topic, how we discuss it. I mean, it's a topic that's still being talked about today, when you think of chattel slavery.

I mean, that's something that's still brought up often today, and in a certain way, a lot of people bring it up almost as if they are the ones who experienced the chattel slavery, right?

Yeah, I mean, you said it's understandable, and there's a certain element of it that feels understandable, but then the other element of it that you're talking about right now feels very not understandable, in that you have individuals who seem to be role-playing, live-action role-playing, as if they were plantation slaves early on in their life.

I mean, it really isn't a sign of health for a society to still be bitter and bent out of shape about something that was ended 160 years ago, particularly when we're the kind of society right now that is engaging in the abominable practices that we're engaging in currently at the moment.

And so some of this discussion about slavery has the moral effect of blinding our eyes to the very real heinous acts that we're committing today, like child sacrifice. I mean, we're worse than Nazis today, and whatever you say about slavery as a moral evil, and obviously the transatlantic slave trade had some great elements of monstrous moral evil involved.

It's nothing in comparison to the abortion kind of evil that is currently being perpetrated by people today. And so it is a sign of self-righteous hypocrisy to basically be unwilling to get the log out of our eye.

And I mean, we're intent on removing the speck out of people's eyes before, when we have a huge log in our eye right now.

Right. And I think a lot of people too, with this kind of conversation, to even ask this question, all they're going to hear is, okay, so you were in favor of chattel slavery. You were in favor of transatlantic slave trade type behavior.

And I think that's part of what makes this conversation so hard to have is you really can't even have it. You can't even actually talk about slavery in any other context, other than the type of slavery that the US partook in.

Right. Well, I understand what you mean, but then we're going to have it.

Yeah, obviously we're going to have it, because that's what we do, and we're okay with that. But then most people aren't.

You have to be the kind of person who just doesn't care. You care more about the truth than you care about what individuals who are unstable and poor thinkers are going to say about you. So this is an emotionally charged topic for some, and you're living in a society right now, you can't really have, as you said, you can't have this discussion without being slandered and maligned.

Obviously, it's an inappropriate question to ask, but then one of the things that's funny about that is I've never owned a slave, and I'm a quarter Mexican, right? So I'm a quarter minority here, but then that doesn't really get me off the hook.

So I've never owned a slave, my parents have never owned a slave, I don't know anyone who's ever owned a slave. So I refuse to apologize on behalf of things that I've never done before. But then I think it's a fair moral question, and why it's an important moral question is because the Bible has a lot to say about this.

There's no shortage of atheists who are going to come along and essentially attack the Bible at this very point, and basically just point to the immorality present in the Bible. Because the Bible doesn't speak about slavery the way that many pastors who are trying to score political points speak about slavery.

So the biblical view of slavery is a lot more complicated than the simplistic kind of view of slavery that we're told to have. So we're supposed to hear the word slavery and basically just go, ack, evil.

But then part of what's happening there is if we do that, we're throwing the Bible under the bus, and by extension we're throwing the God of the Bible under the bus, and I'm not precisely willing to do that.

Right, and then once you're willing to go there, you're basically saying the Bible is useless because there are certain parts of it that we've got to get away from.

Well, I mean, that's essentially what atheists are pointing out. And I just think you have a lot of Christians who haven't read the Bible very well, and a lot of the answers that we give on this topic are just reflective of people who are grossly ignorant about what the Bible is saying, and it's embarrassing.

So maybe if they would do the read the Bible in a month challenge, they would get through some of these passages, and they could educate themselves and do the work, and do better. Do better, yeah. Do all the buzzwords, because the Bible is not saying what contemporary evangelical elites are saying it's saying at this point.

So there's a lot of moves that we make on this topic that are not able to be textually grounded, and we need to revisit what's actually being said and have more careful arguments at this point.

Whether Slavery Is Objectively Wrong

Sure. Okay. So the question to start everything off is, is it objectively wrong? Is slavery objectively wrong?

Yeah, I mean, to say that slavery is objectively wrong would be to say that it's an institution which itself is a moral evil, and there's no conceivable situation where it could be okay. And if you say it's objectively wrong, then what you're saying is the Bible is immoral.

So because the Bible does regulate slavery, and it does condone slavery in certain situations, and so it does, like the Bible is not a book that's anti-slavery in the way that many people want it to be.

So the Bible has a lot to say about that, and it's not what people want it to say. So I would say that slavery isn't objectively wrong. There are conditions in which slavery becomes immoral, and then there are some conditions in which it's acceptable.

And really, when it comes down to it, maybe I could give a definition of slavery that we're talking about in the episode that could be helpful. But slavery is a condition in which one human being is owned by another, is under the owner's control, and has less rights than those held by free persons.

So basically, I'll read it again. Conditioning in which one human being is owned by another, is in the owner's control, has less rights than those held by free persons. So under that definition, slavery is not objectively wrong.

And the Bible does describe certain situations in which slavery under that definition would be okay. And there are certain bad ways to enter into slavery. And in a lot of ways, this really is, if you were to step back, this is not an American problem.

So most people who are talking about this as some sort of Western problem, particularly American problem, every society throughout the history of the world has had slaves. This is a fallen human condition kind of issue.

So every society throughout the history of the world has had slaves. Not only that, America currently has slaves. So we think that we're past all this. We have slaves. We have a prison system. So we take men who have committed certain crimes, we put them in cages, we take away their rights, we force them to work.

You know, that is slavery, right? We just don't call it that. So what's happening is a lot of people have a sentimental, emotional reaction to this word. But this concept is a universal concept. And in many ways, it's a necessary universal concept in a fallen world.

And you have to figure out what you're going to do with it. And you can just change the name of it and make yourself feel better and pat yourself on the back. Or you can deal with the concept as it exists.

And this is, in many ways, it's a necessary concept in a fallen world.

Why the Bible Regulates Slavery

Sure. So with all that being said, is slavery objectively right?

Answer that however you see fit. Answer that however you see fit. So I wouldn't want to say without qualification that say slavery is objectively right. I would say that slavery itself is... There are certain conditions in which in a fallen world, slavery is a morally permissible option.

Okay? Okay. So it's a morally permissible option in certain conditions. But then if you're asking it in the reverse, is it objectively wrong? Then I want to say that no, in of itself, that institution is not in of itself morally wrong.

Okay? It's just a necessary entailment of life in a fallen world. But under certain conditions, it can be wrong. And in certain conditions, it can be morally permissible. Okay.

So you mentioned the Bible doesn't outright condemn slavery the same way that most do today. So why didn't it?

Well, part of this gets at what I was saying, that it's a necessary institution in a fallen world. Okay. So there are things that... Just let me spell that out a little bit. There are things that people can do in which you...

The morally just thing to do is to take away certain aspects of their freedom. Okay. So there are things that you can do. And part of this is related to just... The reason... We're sheltered in the West from war and how war actually works and how certain consequences of living life in a fallen world happen because we're not just next door to a tribe that has sworn a blood oath, for instance, to conquer us.

Yeah. So I mean, you can imagine the kind of scenario... And many African tribes, even during the time of the transatlantic slave, were in this kind of scenario. And many African tribes are still in this kind of scenario today where the tribe across the way has sworn a blood oath to conquer you and destroy you.

Right. So then what do you do if they come in as invaders in order to destroy you? And you win. Okay. You have to ask, what do you do if you win? And there's some kind of oath that they've taken to utterly wipe you off the face of the earth.

Well, you let them all go, obviously. Right. You have different options, right? So I mean, you have different options of things you can do at that point. So one is you can wipe them all out, right? So they declare...

Like they're going to... Like they've declared genocide on you. Okay. Well, you can in turn respond to that by declaring genocide on them. So like that's option one. Okay. Sure. Option two is like you have the technological advantage, you win the fight.

I mean, option two is what you said, would just catch and release kind of scenario, right? Well, you catch and release, they're just going to go regroup and come back again, right? I mean, so like, what do you do?

You know? Well, maybe they learned their lesson, Tim. Yeah. You know, option three is to, you know, talk to them over a cup of coffee and see if you can persuade them that this blood oath business is...

The winsome approach. The winsome approach. And there's a lot of people that just simply can't understand why that wouldn't work because they're that naive. You know, but assume though that they come trying to kill you and they did kill a lot of you, right?

But you won, it was a bloody fight and you got it. What do you do at that point? You have the overwhelming technological advantage. I mean, I think maybe, let me modestly say that maybe enslaving them at that point would be the best option, the most humane option, the most gracious option, the most charitable option at that point is just to say, hey, you know, keep them under guard, right?

Keep them under guard. They don't have the same rights and privileges as citizens have at that point because they're under guard, okay? Like, you know, they're going to try to slit your throat the moment they can, keep them under guard, right?

Give them some work to do, right? So force labor. Hey, you want to eat? You work, okay? So you're forcing them to work, right? Put, you know, they want to fight you, right? Like harsh punishments for that, right?

So, and then like give them a chance to maybe earn their freedom, you know, try to persuade them over time slowly. But I mean, this isn't going to be some immediate thing. And I think most, you know, countries that have experienced war, it's not as if like you, you know, everything just goes to normal, like immediately once the battle is over with, right?

Ah, well, we got a little carried away, you know, blew up all your family members and everything, right? Got a little nuts there with all that.

I mean, that's just not the way it works. I mean, that's Well, I mean, one example of that is just World War I and World War II, right? Right. So you have, you have Germany fighting, I mean, a multiple front war, and then they're forced to sign a peace treaty when it's clear that they're going to lose the war.

And then, you know, 20 years later, 25 years later, they immediately start another one.

Well, I mean, there's sanctions, there's things you can do and there's all sorts of, but I mean, it's not just like, it doesn't just go away, you know? It's not just, hey, we all trust you. And it's not just, hey, live next door, be our neighbor, you know, because Jesus told us to love our neighbor.

And like, all of that's pretty naive about the way the world actually works. And so you have to figure out what you're going to do in these kinds of scenarios. And like the answers are like, you can, you know, you can just not give answers and just emote and say, well, slavery is bad.

But what do you do in those kinds of scenarios where you have someone who's declared genocide against you and like, what can you do? And it may be, it's just that you, maybe at that point, slavery becomes the best of a bunch of bad options to where you gradually over time, give them more freedom if they show themselves to be responsible, give them a way to earn trust.

And, you know, but it may take years and years and years, right? Of doing that kind of thing to where you can get to a place where we can, you know, move on, you know, and none of that's, that's not all dependent on you.

Just like, that depends on them moving on. Okay. Yeah. Like them moving on in their mind. So like you have scenarios like that. I mean, prison, like, I don't know that prison is like the way that we do prison right now in America is profoundly unjust in that it's at taxpayer expense.

And, and so you commit a crime and everyone has to pay for it, you know, not just you. But I mean, like most people, most people, if you're not like leaning libertarian at that point, you know and I think, you know, the Bible had a lot to say about that too, you know, so I'm not just saying that that's purely a libertarian urge.

I'm just saying that like most people aren't leaning that way with that, but they don't really have any problem with putting a person in a cage, taking away their rights. You know, they don't have the right to bear arms.

They don't have the right to vote, you know, I mean, and then you're forcing them to work, you know, whatever you're doing, like you're responding to the reality of a person like that people can do certain things that, that cause them to change their social status and force them to like, you can commit certain crimes and lose your rights, right?

And functionally lose your freedom. Okay. So like, that's, that's, that's just a necessary component of society in general. So like, there are things people can do that are putting themselves in certain situations.

So, I mean, for example, I mean, what do you do? Like if you, you know, steal a bunch of stuff from someone.

Go to jail right away.

If jail is not the option, let's say jails are not the option. I don't think jails are the best option anyways, but, right. So we think the best option is jail, but like, let's say you like the problem with that is you go to jail, you don't pay that guy back.

You hear what I'm saying? Yeah. So let's say that you stole a hundred thousand dollars worth of his money and you have no way to pay it back. And you blew it all right. Blew it on drugs, alcohol, prostitutes, whatever.

You stole the money and you don't have a way to pay it back. What should happen to you? Okay. So, you know, the Bible says that you should make restitution and not just, I mean, not just like pay the amount back, but pay it back at multiple multiples of itself.

But how do you do that? Like under the current prison system, you're going to go like, you steal that hundred thousand dollars from them and then they have to pay for you to live in jail and not get their money back.

Okay. So tell me, is that just, is that right? Is that, is that honorable? Is that moral? Now, what if you could work as their slave for years in order to pay it off, which is more moral, which is right.

Do you get what I'm saying?

Yeah. Probably the one where the, where the victim actually gets restitution.

Right. So, but then like, if you're just going to emotionally react against this word, you're okay with profound levels of injustice. You get what I'm saying? Like, so you get to steal that a hundred thousand dollars.

You don't even pay it back. You just, you know, just declare bankruptcy. It's all over with, you know, move on. Like, what do you say? It'd been much better if you were that guy's slave, you get what I'm saying?

To actually earn it back. Now you may not like that and we may morally respond like as if that's outrageous, but everyone knows what's just, do you get what I'm saying? Yeah.

So what, I think earlier you mentioned that there are certain situations in which the Bible says that it is just objectively wrong. Slavery in certain situations is objectively wrong. So what are some of those situations that it mentions?

Yeah. So, I mean, I think, let's see, Exodus 21, 16, whoever steals a man and sells him and anyone found in possession of him, shall we put to death. So in that scenario, man stealing is considered a capital offense.

So man stealing essentially is that, I mean, basically just imagine it as kidnapping, you know, for adults and children. So you kidnap someone, you force them into slavery. There's nothing more immoral than that.

So that would be an individual who has done nothing wrong and has done nothing deserving of slavery. And you fundamentally step in, you take away their rights and you force them against their will to do what you're telling them to do.

Right? So in that situation, the Bible unequivocally condemns that there's no justification for that whatsoever. There's no way to paint a happy smile on it. That's wrong. So the Bible would say that's a capital offense, meaning you should be put to death.

So, but is that the only. Well, you have slavery that in the Old Testament is essentially regulated. So, you know, the main prohibition is the prohibition against man stealing, but then you have different rules.

So you're not allowed to, the Israelites were not allowed to basically turn their fellow Israelites into slaves, if that makes sense. So, you know, most of like what's happening here in this kind of discussion is you have like a debt slavery kind of thing that's happening with the Israelites with a year of jubilee.

So what they were not allowed to do is turn one of their brothers into a slave in perpetuity. You know, the year of jubilee would be, you know, every seven years there'd be a release of debt. And so they weren't to rule ruthlessly over their brothers and sisters in the same way that they might with the pagans.

And so there's just a different standard of rules there as far as that goes. And so man stealing was always prohibited, period, the end. But then, you know, there's a lot of things in there that are maybe a bit surprising to people in general.

So you have a lot of laws in particular in Exodus 21, which talks about like the different rights between slaves. But then, you know, when you're getting to like Leviticus 25, let's see, I'll read a few verses.

Leviticus 25, 39. If your brother becomes poor besides you and sells himself to you, you shall not make him serve as a slave. He shall be with you as a hired worker and as a sojourner. So they're not allowed to like if like that would be kind of a debt slavery kind of thing, but you're not allowed to treat him like a slave just as a hired worker.

He shall serve with you until the year of jubilee. Then he shall go out from you, he and his children with him and go back to his own clan and return to the possession of his fathers. You shall not rule.

This is verse 43. You shall not rule over him ruthlessly, but you shall fear your God. But then verse 44, as for your male and female slaves, whom you may have, you may buy male and female slaves from among the nations that are those around you.

You may also buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you who have been born in your land and that they may be your property, it says, and you may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a possession forever.

So there's a double standard there as it relates to slavery within the nation and slavery outside of the nation. And the Bible says a lot of things in there which are mostly offensive to everyone around us.

But basically, you're allowed to purchase a slave legitimately acquired, but you're not allowed to purchase a man's like from the nations, but you're not allowed to purchase or you're not allowed to make one of your brother's slaves that way.

OK, so so it seems like it seems like and in some ways, I don't know that I want to say slavery is like heavily regulated in the Old Testament. But then there is a robust, you know, code of law for how to interact with slaves, right?

It is regulated. Yeah, there are rules, you know, about the rights of slaves. And so it's not just I mean, I think heavily regulated is a fine way to put it. OK, but then all this presupposes essentially that there's a legitimate way to become a slave.

And then I think what we've done is we've described different scenarios where where someone might legitimately like where slavery might be the legitimately just option in that way. So, you know, like in terms of debt, slavery, if someone becomes a slave due to a debt that they like, they need to pay back, then, you know, buying those slaves, selling those slaves, allowing them an opportunity to graciously work off the debt they've acquired, that's better than, you know, everyone getting defrauded.

And that's justice. And there's certain decisions you can make, you know, with, you know, tribal issues and war kind of issues. You have a different kind of wrinkle that's happening there. So, you know, when the Israelites are coming into the promised land, you know, like there's there's a very real sense in which God is giving them this land.

And then if there are nations around them that are trying to conquer them, like they're not just going to, you know, if they believe that land belongs to them, they're not just going to go away because you tell them to.

Right, right. Like, so there's certain situations along those lines. And so you have blood feuds that are going on. You have war kind of slaveship, debt kind of slaves. You have a lot of different scenarios, but the Bible doesn't seem to just unequivocally condemn it.

And I think there are certain situations that if you think about, you might realize it's a little more complicated than you're you want to make it.

So because the Bible, you know, it does it doesn't condemn it anywhere. There is no thou shalt not have slaves command. Right, right. Telling us that it's evil. In fact, even in the New Testament. Yeah.

Slaves obey your earthly masters. Right, right. So it doesn't even go away after Jesus comes. It's just, you know, the Bible recognizes that it's a permissible option. And the Old Testament gave the Israelites very specific laws to regulate slavery.

So it's clear that as a Christian, you know, unless you want to go like the Andy Stanley route and you want to just unhitch yourself from the Old Testament entirely, it seems like you can't deny the fact that God never says slavery is wrong, right?

Right. Yes or no. Okay. Yeah. God never says it's wrong. He doesn't say it's outright wrong. He says man's telling is wrong, right? He gives some examples of like, you know, certain specific scenarios in which it is wrong, but then just, you know, just as a social institution where an individual is.

Under the control of another person has less rights than another person and forced into involuntary servitude. There are scenarios where that could be morally justified. Right.

Um, so as Christians, we can't, we can't avoid that. So should we like, I mean, is that something that we should be ashamed of? Should we apologize to people for it? Like, what do we do with that?

Well, I think you, uh, you never apologize for the Bible. So God obviously knows a lot better than us. And I think that, you know, sometimes I make people enraged with anger because I just refuse to apologize for any of these things.

Um, you know, I remember, um, when I was at Southern, uh, Russell Moore was, um, you know, trying to make a politically correct statement. And he said that there's nothing more abhorrent to a biblical worldview than that one man should own another man.

And, um, you know, that's the kind of thing you can say that you can score political points there, but then, you know, you do have to actually read the Bible. Okay. And, you know, if you read the Bible, Leviticus, uh, you know, 25, 45 says you may buy from among the strangers who sojourn with you and their clans that are with you who have been born in your land, that they may be your property.

Okay. And you may bequeath them to your sons after you to inherit as a position forever, whatever that says, that isn't saying what Russell Moore is saying. So I think one of the things you have to do is you, you, you can't, um, ignore what the Bible is saying there.

And, you know, I think as Christians, um, you don't, you never want to apologize for the Bible. You never want to try to soft pedal what's in there. Your job is, you know, if there's something that's like culturally outrageous right now, your job is to figure out why it makes sense.

And so what your job is, is to read the Bible and to be God's defense attorney at that point and try to figure out why he's saying what he's saying and why is it different? You know? So there's a lot of passages like this that people just apologize for.

And what they, they, what they're doing is they're attacking God in that way. And, you know, God doesn't really like that. And, you know, when Job, um, was questioning God, God had some things to say to him, you know, for a few chapters, you know, where were you when I laid the foundation for the world?

So it's never right or good or safe to question God, his ways are not our ways, his thoughts are not our thoughts. And, you know, there are things that come in and out of fad, um, you know, um, as societies, but whatever we were, you know, all the things that were typically outraged by and scandalized by, um, they're the kinds of things that God typically calls abominations, you know, in the Bible.

So, you know, you can't trust our current impulses here. You know, our current impulses are to turn our country into Sodom and Gomorrah right now. Okay. Right. And, uh, you know, basically, um, it normalized, um, yeah, throwing your kid, offering your kids up to Moloch.

Right. So we're evil and moral society, and it's not a big surprise that we can get some of these things wrong. Now, I think in this area where most people are reacting is that slavery feels like it's like, Hey, didn't we do a good thing by getting rid of it as it existed in America?

And I think, yeah, we did a good, like it's slavery is not a desirable state of affairs. Okay. Like as a permanent institution that is in some sense race-based. And so there's a lot of problems with American slavery as it existed.

And that it, you know, uh, there wasn't any mechanism for, you know, slaves gaining their freedom. Um, and it was race-based in that way. Um, and there, there was problems related to it and, you know, just having a, um, like, um, like this should be an undesirable state of affairs in any, any way you slice it.

It should be an undesirable state affair. We're all created in the image of God. We don't have a right to, um, you know, um, just for no reason whatsoever, take away the rights and abilities of others.

So this man-stealing idea is a big deal, right? So, you know, I don't have the right to just subjugate you and dominate you and make you into my property to do whatever I want. I don't have that right.

But there are certain actions that people can take, which make something like this, whatever you want to call it, and most people don't want to call it slavery. There's actions that individuals can take where this is just the most benevolent option you can come up with.

And you can try to come up with other solutions, but you may make a bunch of problems, you know, and that's part of what's happening is that if you reject this as an institution in general, then you just, you come up with all sorts of problems, essentially.

And so some of the problems are like the prison system is part of the problems that we've come up with because we don't like the idea of this institution.

Why Christians Should Not Apologize for the Bible

Yeah. And I know we've said this a few different times already, but it really does. Once you're able to reject one aspect of any part of the Bible, the whole thing is unreliable at that point. When you're saying something is infallible, it's the word of God, you know, it's here to teach us what is right and what is wrong.

The minute that even, you know, one sentence of what that book commands us to do and what it says is good and what is evil, the minute that any one of those sentences is wrong, the entire thing cannot be trusted anymore.

You have a lot of Christians who essentially are taking an Andy Stanley kind of approach to this kind of thing, right? And they are accustomed to, you know, I mean, like they're very easy, like dumb kind of arguments that Christians will make on this topic.

And so anytime an angular passage in the Old Testament comes up, like a passage in the Old Testament where our current sensibilities as a society are running afoul, I mean, there's any number of Christians who are going to come along and basically just say, hey, you know, that's the Old Testament, right?

So they'll go on a Marcionite kind of direction where they just basically cut the Bible up. Hey, that was the old covenant. We're not under the old covenant. Don't worry about it. Not under the law. We don't eat shellfish anymore, you know.

Are you wearing a shirt with two different fabrics? I hope not.

Right. And so these are just stupid arguments, okay? Like they're stupid, they're infantile, they're childish, and like they're not dealing with the reality of what's actually being there. And so it's just like a wholesale dismissal of anything that happens.

The problem is the Bible says whatever is written in former times is written for our instruction, right? As examples to us. So like these things are meant to be examples to us who live at the end of the age and all that.