Eternal Security? (White vs Matatics)

Well, good evening. We sure appreciate your patience as well as your attendance for this evening's event.

This should be a very stimulating opportunity for us to think together and go together. My name is Dan Smyth. I'm one of the associate pastors here at Northwest Community Church.

We want to thank you for taking your evening and joining us for this time. This evening we're going to be having the opportunity to think through two different perspectives regarding a statement that would be stated as this, a true

Christian cannot cease to be a Christian and therefore lose his salvation. That will be affirmed and denied from two different perspectives.

And as we do this, I think it's very healthy for us to think about the benefit that a setting like this provides to us for growth and for maturity in our own walk with the

Lord. There's a statement that John R. W. Stott, a very well -known scholar both in America and England, has made in one of his books,

Christ the Controversialist, where he says the proper activity of professing

Christians who disagree with one another is neither to ignore nor to conceal nor even to minimize their differences, but to debate them.

In the light of these things, what is needed today between Protestants and Roman Catholics is not a premature outward show of unity, but a candid and serious dialogue.

Some Protestants regard such conversation with Roman Catholics as compromising, but it need not be so.

The Greek verb from which it is derived is used in the Book of Acts for reasoning with people out of the

Scriptures. This final statement I want to refer to you. Now, in such dialogue, theological definition is indispensable.

Two people cannot understand each other's convictions if they have not first taken time and trouble to express their own clearly.

But we're going to have an opportunity for that to be presented to us this evening. We're sure glad you've joined us, and I would like to invite you at this time to join me in prayer as we commit our time to the

Lord. Father, we are very grateful for this opportunity that we can come together.

We do so in a desire to honor your great name, the beauty of your majesty, the glory of all that you've done for us in seeking us out, providing a way of redemption through Jesus Christ our

Lord. We desire that this evening's time together would be something that would be beneficial for all of us here.

We most, Father, want to have you pleased with the way we conduct ourselves, so that as we leave, we would be better equipped for the calling that you've given to us as sons and daughters of God.

Lord, we pray your blessing on both James and Jerry, their time of preparation and equipping for this time tonight, and for ourselves as listeners that we would all listen like those who desire to be taught and to grow.

So we do ask for many things tonight. We are confident that you can provide us the wisdom necessary to make this beneficial for the ongoing maturing processes of Christians that you have called us into.

We thank you for that in Christ Jesus. Amen. Let me take just a moment to introduce our speakers for this evening.

To my left, we have James White. James is the Director of Ministries for Alpha and Omega, which is a ministry to counter -cult ministries and specializing in ministry to Mormons, Jehovah Witness, Catholics.

And James comes qualified with his training in a BA degree in Bible from Grand Canyon College, as well as a

Master's degree in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. James is the author of four books,

The Fatal Flaw, Answers to Catholic Claims, Letters to a Mormon Elder, and Justification by Faith.

To my right is Jerry Matitick, who has recently become a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, which is based in San Diego, California.

Jerry holds a BA degree in Greek from the University of New Hampshire and holds a Master of Divinity degree from Gordon -Conwell

Theological Seminary. As well, he is currently a doctoral candidate at Westminster Theological Seminary.

He's written many articles relating to the issues that we will be dialoguing about this evening. So you can see that both of these gentlemen have come very well qualified, and I would like to invite you to welcome them this evening for their time with us.

You maybe have not attended a debate before, and we want to just give you an outline very briefly before we start of what to expect and some guidelines that we can make this the most productive time possible.

We will have a schedule that will follow this particular outline. First of all,

James, since he will be affirming the position that a true Christian cannot cease to be a Christian and therefore lose his salvation, since he is affirming that, he will go first for 20 minutes of opening statements, followed by Jerry's response of 20 minutes of his opening statements as well.

Then James will have his first rebuttal of 10 minutes, followed by Jerry's first rebuttal of 10 minutes.

After that time, we will then have a 15 -minute break where you can stand and stretch. The restrooms are located through the foyer on my right.

There's drinking fountains out there, there's book tables, and you can relax and stretch a little bit for 15 minutes prior to the second half of our time.

Then we'll come back together for the second rebuttal, where James will start for five minutes, and then Jerry will have his second rebuttal for five minutes.

Then we'll have a cross -examination period where there will be interchange between the two gentlemen, and I'll describe how that will be conducted when we get to that point, followed by two 10 -minute closing comments, first by James and then by Jerry.

Now, in terms of how we participate as listeners, just a couple comments. We're dealing with a very significant subject tonight, which people come with very deep -seated convictions, and we want to invite you to show your appreciation to the speakers at very appropriate times.

Whenever a speaker has come to the conclusion of his presentation, which will be obvious by the closing of his comments, then we would invite you to show your appreciation for what has been shared through your applause.

We would discourage and ask you not to applaud during the speaking of either the gentlemen' amens, hallelujahs, anything like that, either affirmative or not affirmative, would be inappropriate because that could be very distracting to the speakers and what they're trying to communicate.

So if you'd follow those guidelines, we would sure appreciate that. At this point, then

James will begin with his opening statements in affirming that a true

Christian cannot cease to be a Christian and therefore lose his salvation. It is very good to be with you this evening, and it's even better to have

Jerry with us this evening. I was beginning to worry there that this was going to be a monologue debate, and I didn't think that would go too well at all.

This evening we have come together to debate the issue that has been named in various ways, an issue that has been called the perseverance of the saints, the preservation of the saints, eternal security, a number of different names have been attached to it.

I think it is a very, very important subject from my personal perspective because of the fact that the subject strikes at the very heart of the gospel.

From my perspective, this issue addresses the question, who saves?

Is it God alone? Is it man alone? Or is it God in cooperation with man in sort of a synergistic relationship?

Is God dependent upon mankind to bring about the salvation of his elect?

Obviously, the reformers certainly saw this issue as a very important and central issue, and they saw that it flowed from the real basis of salvation, and that is

God's sovereignty and his grace. But before I deal with the issue itself in regards to the positive presentation of the eternal security of the believer, the perseverance of the saints,

I would like to mention what the debate is not about. The debate is not about whether we can have absolute knowledge or absolute certainty of anything.

The debate is not about whether I as an individual can have absolute certainty and knowledge of anything, let alone my own personal salvation.

I am not saying that I can look at anyone else. I cannot look at any heart of a person out here and say with absolute knowledge and absolute certainty that I understand and know that any particular person is a

Christian. My heart, even as an individual who is redeemed in the blood of Jesus Christ, still has sin, and I still do not have perfect knowledge of myself, and so I can deceive myself and be deceived.

And I certainly, if I can be deceived in regards to my own self, can be deceived in regards to other people. So we are not talking about whether we can have absolute certainty of any subjective type about myself.

The thesis statement is that a Christian, a true believing Christian, cannot cease to be a

Christian and therefore lose their salvation. This is a discussion about whether the Bible teaches that it's possible to be a

Christian, to be in God's grace and yet be removed from that situation, to no longer be under His grace, no longer be a

Christian, in fact be under the wrath of God and be separated from Him for eternity. This is not a debate about whether the

Scriptures provide warnings or exhort us to examine ourselves.

Instead, let me look at what the debate is about. First of all, I feel the debate is about the

Biblical teaching that a person who has been truly born again cannot possibly lose that gift of salvation that has been given to him.

It is about the sovereign will of God accomplishing that which

God desires. It is about the grace of God being sufficient to save all those to whom it is given.

It is about the sufficiency of the work of Jesus Christ on the cross in Calvary. It is about the faithful obedience of the

Son in doing the will of the Father in saving all those that the Father has given into His hand.

It is about the power of the Holy Spirit who can accomplish His task of bringing the elect unto salvation.

And so we approach the question, does the Bible teach that a person who has received the grace of God has been regenerated or born again, justified by faith in Christ Jesus, can that person fail to receive eternal life and end up under the judgment of God?

To answer that question, I would answer it in two parts. The first part, very quickly, and I ask your indulgence in looking through these passages very quickly, would be to provide what

I feel must be the theological foundation of the perseverance of the saints.

I do not believe that we can understand the Protestant perspective in regards to the perseverance of the saints if we do not begin by laying a firm foundation in regards to these issues.

The first issue is the absolute sovereignty of God. Psalm 135 .6 says,

Whatever the Lord pleases, He does, in heaven and in earth, in the seas and in all deeps.

In Ephesians 1 .11, our God is described as the One who works all things after the counsel of His will.

Primarily foundational to the perseverance of the saints is the concept that God Himself is sovereign, that He can and will accomplish

His purpose in this world. Secondly, the eternal purpose of God is to bring the elect unto salvation.

In Ephesians 1 .4 -6 we read, Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which

He freely bestowed on us, in the Beloved. It is God's eternal purpose to bring those that He has chosen in Christ Jesus unto salvation, and that unto

His own glory. Thirdly, when we look at the sovereignty of God in salvation, we see that in regards to the individual salvation of the person, not just simply the church as a whole, but the individual salvation of the individual, that God is sovereign.

1 Corinthians 1 .9 -31 we read, God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our

Lord. But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.

That just as it is written, Let him who boasts, boast in the

Lord. And then that famous passage in John 3, when Nicodemus encounters the

Lord Jesus. What does Jesus say to him? Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

A person cannot even see the kingdom of God, much less desire to enter into it, until first God has moved in his life and has given to him spiritual life, caused him to be born again.

Fourthly, foundationally, we must understand the complete sufficiency of the work of Jesus Christ.

There is nothing that can be added to the work of Jesus Christ. In Galatians 3 .13, Paul tells us that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us.

For it is written, Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree. The death of Jesus Christ accomplishes that which it is intended to accomplish.

It does not simply make a possibility. It does not simply make salvation a possibility. Christ actually redeemed those for whom he died in his death on the cross.

And finally, it is based upon the perseverance of the saints, is based upon the justification of the one who is of the faith of Christ.

Romans 3 .24 tells us that we have been justified as a gift by his grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

The redeemed stand before God justified, made righteous in the blood of Jesus Christ.

They have been declared by the heavenly judge to be right in God's sight. These things are foundational to our understanding of the perseverance of the saints.

But aside from these things, does the Bible actually teach us that the saints individually will persevere in their faith?

I believe that the Bible does, and I would invite you to look with me at the scriptures and see if this is not so.

1 Corinthians chapter 1. Please turn with me there. 1 Corinthians chapter 1, beginning at the end of verse 7.

I read part of this verse just a few moments ago. 1 Corinthians chapter 1, verses 7 through 9, where we read that we are awaiting eagerly the revelation of our

Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our

Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful through whom you were called into fellowship with his

Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Hear what Paul says to the Corinthians. Who is it who shall confirm us to the end?

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who will confirm us to the end, blameless in his day. God is the one who is faithful to us, just as Paul says in Philippians chapter 1, verse 6.

For I am confident of this very thing, that he who began a good work in you will perfect it or continue it until the day of Jesus Christ.

Paul's confidence was not in the Philippians. Paul's confidence was in the one who had saved the

Philippians, had drawn the Philippians unto himself, that is, God. He was confident that God would continue and complete and perfect the work that he had begun in the

Philippians. Then in Ephesians chapter 1, I invite you to turn there, Ephesians chapter 1, verses 13 through 14.

Ephesians chapter 1, verses 13 through 14. After that tremendous passage affirming the absolute sovereignty of God in calling the elect unto himself,

Paul says in verses 13 through 14, in him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in him with the

Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance with a view to the redemption of God's own possession to the praise of his glory.

Listen to the words that are used by the apostle to describe those who in the immediately preceding section were described as those who had been chosen by God.

They are sealed, sealed in Christ, sealed how? With the

Holy Spirit of promise. The Holy Spirit indwelling the life of the individual is a promise.

A promise of what? Well, he is not only described as a promise, but he is given as a pledge of our inheritance.

This pledge of our inheritance tells us that this is to a view, Paul says, of the redemption of God's own possession.

Who is God's own possession? Those who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of promise. Those who have the Holy Spirit as a pledge of our inheritance.

We are described as God's own possession and this is a down payment, a pledge payment, the term refers to in the original language, that God is promising to complete the work that he has begun in the life of his own possession, his own individual, and that again,

Paul says, to the praise of his glory. If the process in which

God has begun in the life of a Christian can end and the person can cease being a Christian and can no longer be in fellowship with God, how does

God receive glory from that, I must ask you. The scriptures do not teach that that is the case.

Ephesians 2 .5, the very next chapter. Ephesians 2 .5, you may have looked at this passage before and in different translations it is rendered in different ways, but frequently it is just simply the last phrase in Ephesians 2 .5

is set apart by a parenthesis or by dashes in some of the modern translations, but this passage in the

Greek text is what is known as a paraphrastic construction. You have a perfect passive participle and a finite verb.

What does that mean? Well, if you brought out all of the nuances and so on and so forth of the language,

Paul says it is by grace you have been saved. By grace you have been saved.

And that is as a past action, as a past completed action, you have been saved through the instrumentality of grace.

Not through the instrumentality of works, not through the instrumentality of obediences to any gospel rules or principles.

You have been saved solely through the instrumentality of grace and you remain saved to this time because of that grace.

Dr. Kenneth Wiest of the Moody Bible Institute said that in his opinion this is one of the clearest enunciations of the doctrine of eternal security in the

New Testament, that by grace we have been saved and we remain in that state because of God's grace.

A couple of the passages I'd like to get to. 1 Peter 1, verse 5. Peter tells us that we are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

We are protected by the power of God through faith. Well, it might be said, yes, we are protected by the power of God, but notice on what basis?

Through faith. And if our faith falters, and if our faith ends, then we are no longer protected by the power of God and therefore could possibly lose our salvation.

However, I'd point out to you that faith, true saving faith, in the New Testament is pictured to us and presented to us by the text itself as the gift of God, as the gift of God.

For example, Hebrews 12, 2 talks about fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith.

The two terms refer to the author, the origin, the source, and the perfecter, the finisher, the completer of faith.

This is the role of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is the one who perfects faith. He is the one who authors this kind of faith, and therefore it is a true saving faith that is spoken of here.

And of course, in 2 Peter 1, 1, Peter wrote, Simon Peter, a bondservant, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours.

Faith is pictured as something that has been received by the individual

Christian, therefore it is the gift of God. Now my time is flying away from me.

There are a number of other passages that hopefully in the time that we have left this evening, we'll have an opportunity to examine. But I want to ask you to turn with me especially to John chapter 6.

For I believe that in all of Scripture, there is no clearer, stronger enunciation of the security of the believer in Jesus Christ, the perseverance of the saints, the fact that the saints will persevere in their salvation, because this is the work of God in their life, than John chapter 6, beginning at verse 37.

Hear the words of our Lord Jesus Christ. All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one who comes to me

I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.

And this is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me, I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Now I want you to think with me quickly about these passages. All that the

Father gives me shall come to me. There is no question or hesitancy in the words of our

Lord Jesus Christ. There is no question in His mind that those that the Father as a gift of grace have given to the

Son will come to the Son. There can be no question of this. And as a result of this,

Jesus says, the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.

It is a strong negative in the Greek language. It is a denial of the possibility that this situation can arise, that one who comes to Jesus Christ, and clearly in this context it is one who has been given by the

Father to the Son, could possibly ever be cast out by the Lord Jesus Christ.

But notice what the rest of the passage says, for this in my opinion is some of the strongest evidence.

What does our Lord Jesus say? He says, I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of Him who sent me.

And what is the will of the Father for the Son? And this is the will of Him who sent me, that of all that He has given me,

I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. The will of the

Father for the Son is that the Son not lose any of those that have been given to Him.

None that the Father has placed into the Son's hands will be lost, because it is the

Father's will that the Son not lose them. Now think with me for just a moment. If it were possible for a person to be given by the

Father to the Son, to come to know Jesus Christ as His Savior, to be known by Jesus Christ, Jesus says in John 10,

I know my sheep and my sheep know me. The reciprocal relationship has occurred. Salvation has been given to this individual.

He has been justified by faith. If it is possible for that person to be lost, then what we are indeed saying is that it is possible for the

Son to fail to do the will of the Father. Now I realize that no one who denies the perseverance of the saints is purposefully attempting to say that the

Son would not obey the Father's will, or the Son does not have the power or the might to accomplish the task that has been given to Him by the

Father. But that does not change the fact that according to Jesus' own words in this passage, it is the

Father's will for Him to not lose anything that the Father has given to Him, but raise it up on the last day.

And what does that mean here in John 6? What is raising up on the last day? It is used as an exact synonym of giving them eternal life.

So, the perseverance of the saints does not deny that God works in our lives.

It does not deny that we are going to be obedient to Him. It does not deny that the saving faith of which

I spoke earlier does not bring about a change in the individual. What the perseverance of the saints present is simply this, that God is sovereign in the matter of salvation,

God can accomplish His will in giving us faith, saving faith, and the Lord Jesus Christ is powerful enough to accomplish the task that has been assigned to Him by the

Father. The assurance that is ours when we believe in Jesus Christ is that Jesus Christ will accomplish the will of the

Father. That is the perseverance of the saint. Thank you. Jerry will now have his 20 minutes for his opening statement.

Thank you very much. My brothers and sisters in Christ, the issue

God wishes all of us to be in agreement on tonight is whether a real, true, born -again

Christian can so sin as to cease to be a Christian, to fall away from grace.

James has reminded us of many precious passages of Scripture, passages which

I as a Christian trust and treasure. The only problem is that these passages don't actually support his position.

They do not actually teach that a real Christian can never cease to be a

Christian and so lose the salvation he or she once possessed. And if you were listening carefully, and I hope prayerfully, to the passages as they were read,

I'm sure you noticed that. If you didn't, please allow me to point out to you how these passages don't in fact prove his point during my first rebuttal period, which is coming up a little bit later.

But what I'd like to do now during my opening statement is to draw your attention to several very clear passages of Scripture which

James seems either to have forgotten or perhaps to have overlooked. I want to underscore the fact that I too, when

I was a Reformed Christian and an ordained Reformed minister and theologian, I too used to believe in the

Calvinistic concept of once saved, always saved, the concept that is being presented ably,

I think, by Mr. White this evening. I knew all the proof texts. I had them memorized and I could handle them from the pulpit and in one -on -one conversation with the same ease and familiarity that James has this evening.

But I came to see, as I dug into Scripture a little bit more carefully and a little bit more deeply, that this notion can really only be held to by overlooking other passages of Scripture.

And when these other passages are overlooked, or at least downplayed, then even the passages that one does pay attention to are inevitably misconstrued or misunderstood, as I believe my worthy counterpart this evening has misunderstood them.

No theological system, whether it's Calvinism, which James holds to and which

I once held to as an ordained minister in a Reformed denomination, no theological system is scriptural and therefore sound and safe, whether we're talking about Calvinism or Catholicism or anything else.

No system is sound and safe unless it can account for all of the scriptural data, not just certain carefully selected passages which seem to support one's theory.

So let's look at some of the passages that pose a problem from Mr.

White's point of view. The first one I'd like to turn to is the parable of the unmerciful servant found in Matthew chapter 18, verses 23 through 35.

And while you're turning to that, I just want to reiterate that my sole passion in life and my only desire this evening is to submit my mind and my heart to my

Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, to believe only what He teaches and to do all that He commands.

And it was my commitment to Christ as Lord and Savior, which I already had as a Protestant, that led me to be willing to rigorously re -evaluate certain opinions that I believed were taught by sacred scripture, but which

I came to the conclusion, much against my will and after tremendous agony, because I never thought in a million years

I'd ever become a Catholic, to come to the conclusion that this doctrine, which

I'd once thought was biblical, is in fact a tradition of men and falls therefore under the condemnation of Christ.

It's a human teaching which purports to be scriptural, but in fact is not. And no one taught this doctrine for about the first 14 or 1500 years of Christian history.

I'll come back to that in my rebuttal period. But you've had time now to turn to Matthew 18, verses 23 and following.

You know the story, I don't need to take the time to read it all. Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wants to settle accounts with his servants, and he brings a particular one before him who owes him an enormous wad of money.

And the man is not able to pay and begins to beg and plead, and the king is moved with mercy, and it tells us in verse 27 that he cancelled his entire debt and released him.

Two verbs that are used throughout scripture to describe the terrific transaction that occurs when

God forgives us in Jesus Christ. Cancels our debt and releases us. Then the man at a subsequent point in his experience goes out, finds a fellow servant who owes him money, and refuses to display the same merciful and forgiving attitude that the king had given to him.

The other man pleads, give me a little time to pay you the relatively small amount that I owe you, and the man will not forgive this other man's debt.

When the king finds out about it, in verse 32, he hustles this unforgiving servant in front of him, scolds him, excoriates him, and hands him over to the jailers, in verse 34, to be tortured.

And Jesus concludes in verse 35, now get this, this is our Lord Jesus Christ talking.

It's not Jerry Matitex, it's not James White, it's not two fallible men, it is Almighty God himself in the flesh saying, this is how my

Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.

Who is Jesus talking to? Who is he addressing this warning to? To believers. This is how my

Heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother. Your brother.

It's a family situation here. You can be forgiven, verse 27 says, you can have your debt canceled, you can be released.

And yet God can revoke that forgiveness if we do not persevere, if we do not live up to the grace that God initially gives us.

Jesus makes the very same point in an equally crystal clear fashion in Matthew 6, verse 15, immediately on the heels of the

Lord's prayer that he teaches us. As if to underscore the importance of the petition, forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors,

Jesus, and this is the only part of that prayer that has a footnote at it.

Jesus says, if you forgive men when they sin against you, then your Heavenly Father will also forgive you.

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father. Who is he talking to?

Non -Christians? Mr. White doesn't believe that non -Christians have God as their

Father. I don't either, and I hope you don't either. You're a Bible -believing Christian tonight, as we are. Your Father will not forgive your sins.

Now just stop for a second. This is a debate. You're thinking, this guy wants to prove his point, and this manifest guy wants to prove his point.

Let's just lay aside our personalities for a moment, and I just want those words of Jesus to sink into your minds.

Can you hear what he's saying? God will not forgive

Christians if they are not forgiving. You could choose to be an unforgiving

Christian, and Jesus promises you, he warns you, that God will not forgive you.

So there's no teaching here of unconditional forgiveness. I'll forgive you regardless of how you go out and proceed to live.

Jesus doesn't teach that. These passages are abundantly clear.

Now we could go to other passages. We can say, well maybe that's just some fluke of Matthew's Gospel.

Let's go to another Gospel. I'm reading, by the way, from the New International Version, the NIV, which was my favorite translation when

I was an Evangelical Protestant, the one I always preached from and studied from. It's still my favorite translation, so I can't wean myself away from it.

I have it here tonight, and just in case you're wondering what I'm reading from, that's it. If we turn to Luke's Gospel, chapter 12, verses 42 through 46.

Luke 12, 42 through 46. Jesus said, who is the faithful and wise manager whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time?

It will be good for that servant whom his master finds doing so when he returns. Who's Jesus talking about here?

His servants, Christians. And it can even start out, verse 42 says, faithful and wise.

But they've got to keep it up, he says in verse 43. And he says in verse 45, suppose that servant, not some other servant now, but that servant that he has already identified as faithful and wise, as a servant of the master, a servant of the king.

Suppose that servant says to himself, my master is taking a long time coming, and he begins to beat the men servants and maid servants and to eat and drink and get drunk.

The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour when he is not aware of, he will cut that servant to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

This person was a servant of Christ. He was saved. But he began to abuse the trust placed in him, to act irresponsibly, to fail to follow after holiness without which no one will see the

Lord, Hebrews 12, 14 says, and as a result fell from his position of favor and was assigned a place not with the believers, but with the unbelievers.

Jesus makes the same point in somewhat different language in John chapter 15, verses 1 through 6.

You know the passage where Jesus says, I'm the vine, Christians are the branches in the vine. He says in the sixth verse of John 15, if anyone does not remain in me, notice you're in Jesus.

He talks about being in him, but if you don't remain in me, he says, you're like a branch that is thrown away and withered.

Such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. It is possible to be in Christ tonight.

It is possible for Jerry Maticix to be in Christ tonight, for James White to be in Christ, for you to be in Christ tonight, but you can't be presumptuous and say, well, if I'm in Christ tonight,

I can never fall out. You might believe that, but I'm begging you and entreating you to listen to what

Jesus says. Be willing to take your belief and say, Jesus, is this what you have taught?

Or do I hear you saying here that I can be in you and yet if I don't remain in you,

I could be thrown aside. I could stop producing fruit and I could be cast aside and burned.

That is what Jesus is teaching in this passage. So the teaching of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is very clear that salvation can be received and enjoyed, but not persevered in.

There is a very real possibility of falling away or Jesus was wasting his breath. Now, how did

Jesus know this was true? Obviously, as God, he knew how he had dealt with and would deal with his people in the matter of salvation.

Jesus is not only God, of course, but he's also man. And as man, he based his teaching over and over again.

He said this squarely on the testimony of the inerrant scriptures, which for our Lord Jesus Christ were the

Old Testament. His teaching was absolutely in line with the constant teaching of the Old Testament on this point.

And you can go anywhere in the Old Testament and find this same point made. Go back to Adam. In Genesis, Adam was a child of God.

He walked with God in fellowship. He had sanctifying grace in his soul. And yet God said to him, in the day that you eat of this forbidden fruit, you will die.

And he did die, spiritually and ultimately physically. He died because he sinned mortally and he fell from grace.

He lost his status as a son of God. God reinstated him through redemption, but he had a position that he fell from.

The same thing could be said of other figures in the Old Testament. We could look at Saul, for example. In 1

Samuel 10, verses 6 through 9, we're told that God regenerated Saul, that he converted him, he changed his heart.

Yet Saul did not remain faithful to the Lord. For we read in chapter 13 that he sinned grievously in offering a sacrifice that only

Samuel was authorized to offer. In chapter 14, he used the ark of God in a superstitious, idolatrous fashion.

In chapter 15, he spared Agag and the best of the sheep and the cattle, the plunder, contrary to God's explicit command.

And as a result, we read in 1 Samuel 16, 14, now the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul and an evil spirit tormented him.

Surely, Mr. White does not expect us to believe that the man who then subsequently pursues

David during the coming months and years, seeking to murder God's anointed out of envy and murderous rage, is still a born -again child of God.

What about David himself, whom I just mentioned? The man after God's own heart, who will deny that the composer of so many stirring and spirit -inspired songs of salvation was truly a saved man?

Yet he committed adultery and then to cover it up, murder. You know the story. Was he still saved at that point? He was not.

Had David not repented of those sins, had he died laughing with glee at his sexual immorality, at the free, unbridled expression of his lust, at the cold -blooded slaughter of an innocent man, would he have gone to heaven?

He would not. Read the words of Psalm 51, the penitential psalm he composed on that occasion when

Nathan the prophet came and rebuked him. David cries out to God and makes all kinds of pleas that would be pointless if he said,

I'm born again, I'm saved, there's no way I can lose my salvation. Why does he say to God, have mercy on me, blot out my transgressions?

If he says, I'm already justified, I'm already saved, I don't need them blotted out, they're already blotted out by the blood of Jesus.

Why does he say, wash me? Why does he say, cleanse me? Why does he say, create in me a new heart, O God, if he already has a new heart that can't be lost?

In verse 10, why does he say, don't cast me away from your presence, don't take your Holy Spirit from me, if he knows

I can't lose the Holy Spirit, no matter what I do? The principle is articulated in the book of Ezekiel.

If you want a nice, simple summary of this whole concept, turn to the Old Testament book of Ezekiel, starting in chapter 18, verse 21.

In Ezekiel 18, starting in verse 21, Ezekiel says this, but a wicked man turns away, excuse me, if a wicked man turns away from the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live, he will not die.

None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him, because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Verse 24 of Ezekiel 18, but if a righteous man turns from his righteousness, notice you can turn from your righteousness and commit sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live?

No. None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered, because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

Now Paul makes the same point in the New Testament. As a matter of fact, he draws upon Old Testament examples in 1

Corinthians 10 and says, folks, we've got to learn from those examples. In 1 Corinthians 10, the first 11 verses or so, he says, look, keep in mind, brothers, don't forget that they were all baptized when they went through the

Red Sea and they were all fed upon Christ spiritually in the manna from heaven and the water from the rock, yet God was not pleased with most of them.

They didn't make it all the way. Their bodies dropped in the wilderness. And he says twice in verse 6 and in verse 11, these things occurred as examples for us to keep us from falling into the same presumption that they did.

You can start out. You can be baptized. You can be saved. You can be feeding upon Christ and you cannot make it to the promised land.

It's true in the Old Testament and it's true in the New. That's what Paul is saying. Their examples are edifying for us to consider.

By the way, Paul himself in the immediately preceding verse, 1 Corinthians 9 .27 says, look, I'll include myself.

I'm going to watch over myself with discipline so that after I have preached the gospel to others, I myself am not cast away or disqualified.

And the Greek word there, adokimos, you can tell if you look at the way Paul uses it elsewhere, we have another example of his use of the word.

2 Corinthians 13 .5 means someone who's not going to receive salvation. He says to examine ourselves, to see if we're in the faith.

He's talking to people who are already believers. Check it out, he says. Check your heart out. Jesus Christ is in you unless you are adokimos.

Now, the other passages of the New Testament that I wanted to get to all say the same thing. In Hebrews chapter 6 and verses 4 through 6 and in Hebrews chapter 10, starting in verses 26 to 38, we are told that you can be a born again

Christian. You can experience salvation. Hebrews 6, you can be enlightened. Verse 4, you can be enlightened.

You can taste the heavenly gift. You can participate in the Holy Spirit. You can have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of heavenly grace.

But you can fall away, he says in verse 6. You can fall away. If you persevere, then you'll be saved.

10 verses 26 through 38, the same thing. He says we can deliberately keep on sinning after we have come to know the truth.

We can be sanctified, he says in Hebrews 10 .29, sanctified by the blood of Christ.

And yet we can trample that blood underfoot. We can insult the Holy Spirit of grace and fall into the hands of a holy

God, which would be a dreadful thing, who will judge us. In 2 Peter chapter 2 verses 20 and 21,

Peter says that there can be people who are redeemed by their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

In 2 Peter 2 verses 20 and 21, and therefore escape the corruption of the world. But they can become entangled back in the world again, and their final state will be worse than if they had never been saved in the first place.

It would have been better for them never to have known the path of righteousness than to have known it and then turn their backs on it.

Jesus makes the same point in his seven letters to the churches in Revelation 2 and 3. The passages which

Mr. White shared with us this evening teach that a Christian cannot be lost.

I believe that. The Catholic Church has taught that for 2000 years. Christians cannot be lost.

But it doesn't teach that if you are a Christian, you will infallibly go on being a Christian, because if you do fall away, you will not be saved.

Thank you very much. Thank you,

James and Jerry, for your opening statements. We'll now have a 10 -minute rebuttal by James. It is clear to me that Mr.

Matipix and I obviously approach the issue of salvation from two very, very different perspectives.

In each of the statements that have been made by my learned opponent, I have noticed over and over again the emphasis upon, if you do not do, if you do not do, then this takes place.

I mentioned at the very beginning that the theological foundation from which

I speak is the fact that God is the one who saves. Salvation is of the

Lord. And that it is God who causes us to be born again. It is

God who places into our hearts the Holy Spirit of God. It is God who gives us faith.

It is God who regenerates us. It is God who sanctifies us. Salvation is of the

Lord. Now, Mr. Matipix has suggested that we be very careful to look at all of Scripture.

And I certainly agree that we definitely need to look at all of Scripture. And I think one place we might disagree is that we are to look only at Scripture and have no other authority outside of Scripture.

But if we just look at only Scripture itself, we are again pointed to the fact that Mr.

Matipix said that none of the passages that we cited, for example, John chapter 6, or 1

Corinthians chapter 1, or Philippians 1, or Ephesians 1, that none of these said that a

Christian cannot cease to be a Christian. Well, I obviously disagree.

I think a large majority of them said just that. But let me add a few others that I didn't have an opportunity to present in the light of Mr.

Matipix's statement that none of the passages that we had presented said that a

Christian cannot cease being a Christian. In fact,

Mr. Matipix, more than once, I believe, Jerry, you said, the Scriptures are infallible, and we agree on that.

And therefore, if the Scriptures do teach in any place that a Christian cannot fall from his position, then obviously

Mr. Matipix has misinterpreted some of these passages, as we'll get into them in a moment.

But look at John chapter 10 for a moment with me. In John chapter 10, Jesus speaks of Christians.

He makes it very clear that he is speaking of Christians who are truly Christian. We're not talking simply about people who are in church.

We're not talking here about people who profess Christianity, which I think many of the passages

Mr. Matipix is referring to does speak to them. Because he says, Jesus answered them, I told you and you did not believe, beginning at verse 25 of chapter 10.

The works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me, but you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give eternal life to them.

Is this not speaking of Christians? I give eternal life to them. And they shall never perish.

These are just as much Jesus' words as parables that were read in your hearing just a few moments ago.

But here, the specific topic is not teaching the importance of forgiveness. Here, the specific topic is the scriptural teaching

Jesus is talking about salvation itself. And we must be careful not to look at passages of scripture that are not specifically about salvation and attempt to build a theology upon them that contradicts the specific passages that do talk about how we gain eternal life.

I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish. And no one shall snatch them out of my hand.

My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the

Father's hand. I and the Father are one. The Father and the Son are united in bringing about the salvation of the elect.

Now, are we truly to believe that on the basis of a parable that teaches the importance of forgiveness, that if we as human beings do not forgive perfectly, and is there anyone in this room tonight that would dare say that they can perfectly forgive without question, without one small bit of failure, are we to believe that an act of forgiving perfectly can frustrate the

Father and Son's intention of bringing one of His sheep unto salvation? Is this what the scriptures actually teach?

Jesus said in John 10, 14, I know my sheep and they know me. Let us for a moment take

Mr. Mattock's position and say that a person can actually be one of the sheep of Jesus Christ.

And then through grievous sin, even though I pointed out at the beginning of my presentation that foundational to all of this is an understanding that all of our sins were laid upon the person of Jesus Christ.

But even through grievous sin, this sheep ceases to be a sheep, loses his salvation, and he stands before Jesus on the judgment day in Matthew chapter 7.

You remember what happens in Matthew chapter 7? The judgment takes place, there are many who stand before the

Lord Jesus, and they say things like, Lord, Lord, did we not do? And then there's all these things that these religious people did.

But what does Jesus say to them? How does Jesus answer them? Verses 22 through 23.

What's the first word that he says to them? I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work lawlessness.

Well, wait a minute. How can Jesus say, I never knew you, if Jesus knows his sheep?

The only possibility, my friends, if, as Mr. Mattock and I agree, this is inspired scripture, is that those who stand before Christ on that judgment day and are told to depart from his presence are those who have never truly been known by Jesus Christ.

And since Jesus says, I know my sheep, the

Father has given them into my hand, they are in my hand, they are in the Father's hand, and nothing can snatch them out of my hand, then it is obviously impossible that any of the sheep of Jesus Christ, given to him by the

Father, stand before him that day and are cast out of his presence. It is impossible. That is exactly what

Paul taught in Colossians 3 .3. In Colossians 3 .3, Christ said, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

You've died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. There can be no more secure place in the universe than to have died with Christ.

We have died with him. The punishment of our sins has been laid upon the substitute Jesus Christ.

How then can we be condemned is what Paul says in that fantastic passage in Romans 8.

And notice something, please. Each one of these passages specifically addresses not

Christian behavior, not behavior within the church. They specifically address how it is that we are saved.

They specifically address the doctrine of salvation itself. In that tremendous passage in Romans 8,

Paul says, who can bring a charge against God's elect? Can a person be the elect of God, be in the grace of God, and then somehow the

Holy Spirit fails to bring about the sanctification of the individual, fails in his purpose of bringing that person to salvation, and that person commits gross, mortal sin in the

Roman Catholic concept, and he loses his salvation, but then a charge can be brought against him.

He can be condemned. But no, the Scriptures teach God has declared him just and righteous, not on the basis of anything he has done, not on the basis of the perfection of him forgiving his friend, him forgiving his brother.

Yes, my friends, it is vital that we forgive one another, but you know something? The Scriptures say we are to love the

Lord our God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. And in and of ourselves, there's not a single person in this room tonight that has loved the

Lord our God with our heart, soul, mind, and strength every minute of this day. Not a one of us.

So if the righteousness of Jesus Christ has not been imputed to us by faith, then we all stand condemned and utterly hopeless.

But my friend, when we stand before God, we do not stand before God to be judged on the basis of these actions that we have undertaken.

We have the righteousness of Jesus Christ to which to plead before the Father. That is how we can stand before the

Father. You see, eternal security really goes down to the roots of what salvation itself is and how

God brings us into eternal life. That's where it goes to.

And so we see that the Scriptures do teach that a Christian cannot cease. A true believer, a sheep of Jesus Christ, cannot cease being one of his sheep and no longer be known by his

Lord and Savior. Thank you. At this point,

Jerry, we'll have his first rebuttal for ten minutes. Well, Ambrose Bierce, in the

Devil's Dictionary, defined quoting as, quote, the act of repeating erroneously the words of another.

And I'm afraid I think that has happened a couple of times, unfortunately, this evening in Mr. White's immediately preceding remarks.

He is misrepresented and I think misunderstands the Catholic position on the basis that misunderstanding argues rather vigorously against it.

I noticed, by the way, that he did not rebut any of the passages I cited. I really don't see how he can.

And he's going to have to do that this evening to show why they do not teach what

I showed you they do. Let me rebut his immediately preceding remarks and then some of his earlier remarks as well.

He said that we approach this issue from two different perspectives. I hear again and again Mr. Mattisick saying, if you do not do this, if you do not do that, folks,

I was simply reading to you the Bible. It is the Bible that says that you must persevere in the faith, that you must follow after holiness, that you must forgive your brother or your

Heavenly Father will not forgive you. If there is an emphasis founded by me tonight on what we must do, it is an emphasis that is found in Scripture.

And no theological system, however noble, however good, however laudatory, has the right to say

I'm uncomfortable with certain statements that are there in Scripture. Mr. White says any emphasis on what we have to do is wrong.

It detracts from the glory of God. That's not the way Jesus looks at it, folks. That's not the Bible looks at it.

That's the way Calvin looked at it. But in my understanding, Calvin misunderstood the sovereignty of God.

He so overemphasized it that he ended up downplaying the equally scriptural emphasis upon the responsibility of the believer.

The Catholic Church agrees with the Calvinist that salvation is of the Lord. We agree that it's

God who saves. Salvation is sola gratia, by grace alone.

And that is something that the Council of Trent and the Protestant Reformers agreed that Protestants and Catholics agreed on.

Protestants did not accuse Catholics of denying that we're saved by God's grace. The question is, how does

God's grace work? It works through our faith, which is a gift of God, absolutely.

Paul teaches that, and Mr. White is right on that. But the

Bible is not uncomfortable with the idea that we cannot say that we have a part to play in our salvation. Paul says so in Philippians 2 .12,

Work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who is at work in you to will and to do his good pleasure.

God's doing it, but does Paul say, well, if God's doing it, I don't need to tell you anything. I don't need to tell you you've got to do this.

He doesn't reason that way. He says, you have something to do. Work out your salvation. Mr. White is saying, oh, don't say that.

You're teaching that salvation is not from God. Well, criticize Paul. Don't just criticize me. And criticize our

Lord, who uses the exact same type of language. We believe that salvation is by God, but that doesn't take us off the hook.

We have a responsibility that all these passages very clearly point out. He says we might disagree on whether Scripture alone is our rule of faith and practice.

I'm willing to meet you on your ground. I'm not appealing to papal encyclicals or tradition or anything else.

I'm basing my case on Scripture alone tonight. I'm using a Protestant methodology and saying the

Bible alone can show, as many other Protestants believe who agree with the Catholic position on this, that you can lose your salvation.

They're Protestants, but they see that Scripture teaches that. So the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is really not to the point here.

Now, Mr. White said a large majority of the passages he cited did teach that a

Christian cannot cease to be a Christian. I would like to know which of the passages you cited earlier do not teach that and ask you why you bothered to take the time to read them if they didn't, if a large majority did.

So tell us which ones didn't in fact prove your thesis, and then we can look at the ones you say did. I don't think that any of them do.

And I will give my reasons for that right now. In John 6 and in John 10,

Jesus says that the elect, the chosen ones, cannot lose their salvation.

The Catholic Church agrees with that, Mr. White. You need to study Catholic doctrine, read the great writings of, say,

St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, and you will find that on this issue, Mr. White and myself are brothers. We wholeheartedly agree.

We agree that when God chooses people and gives them to Christ, that the elect cannot be lost.

All of this is based on a very simple confusion here. Mr. White has cited all kinds of passages from John 6 and John 10 and Romans 8 and Ephesians 1 that say the elect, the chosen, cannot perish.

No argument. We're not disputing that. But he makes the mistaken assumption that if someone is regenerate, if they're born again, if they experience salvation, it proves that they are elect.

The Bible doesn't teach that. I'm not going to cite any passages which say the elect can lose their salvation because I agree with him on that.

But I have cited passages and will continue to cite passages which say someone can receive the

Holy Spirit, they can be sanctified by the blood of Christ, they can have tasted the power of God's grace, and all of this other language that I've mentioned.

They can become a son of the Father and be forgiven, have their debt canceled, and they can fall away. If they do, it proves they were not elect.

I agree. But the problem is you can be a real born -again Christian tonight and fall away.

That would prove you weren't chosen from before the dawn of time. But it would not disprove the

Catholic position. Mr. White has already told us that we can't know who the elect are. So he can't now undo his own case and tear apart all of his own house of cards and say, look, if you're born again, you can know that you're elect.

He has already made it clear that he agrees with the Catholic Church that no one can really know for sure if you're elect or not.

You won't know until you get to heaven. And then, by your having persevered in faith and holiness, you have made your calling and election sure.

That's what Scripture teaches. But Scripture does not teach that if you're born again, you're elect and therefore can never lose your salvation.

You can be born again tonight. I can be born again. And I need to watch it. And you need to watch it. Jesus said so.

Paul said so. Hebrews says so. Peter says so. We've got to listen to those warnings and not dismiss them because we're so attached to a theological system, be it

Calvinism or anything else, that we ignore the plain sense of sacred Scripture, which is the only safe guide in this particular dispute that Mr.

White and myself would agree upon. And not what Calvin taught or what any other fallible theologian taught. Now, Matthew 7 .23

is irrelevant. I agree that there are those that think they're saved that are not saved. Jesus would say, I never knew you.

But we're not talking about people that Jesus never knew. Not everyone that Jesus will send into eternal condemnation will be someone that hears this sentence,

I never knew you. Because 2 Peter 2 says there are some who are known by the Lord and who know him and who can then nevertheless fall away.

So there's a logical fallacy there just because Jesus says to some that he dismisses, I never knew you. Jesus is warning about that.

Don't just have lip service Christianity. Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord, but he who does the will of my father.

That's the person that I know and that knows me. But you can do the will of the father, these other passages we looked at show you, and at some point decide

I'm going to stop doing the will of the father. I'm going to begin to beat the men servants and maid servants. I'm going to begin to do my own will.

And at that point, Jesus warns you. All of the verses that Mr.

White has drawn our attention to in 1 Corinthians 1 .8 and Philippians 1 .6 and Ephesians 1 and Ephesians 2 simply show us in 1

Peter 1 .5 that Christians, if they remain

Christians, have all the promises of salvation open to them. Every Christian who dies as a

Christian, loving Jesus Christ, believing Jesus Christ, can know that he will be saved. I rejoice in that as Mr.

White does. But these passages do not teach that if you are a Christian today, you can infallibly know that you will be a

Christian next week or next year or down the road. You all know people that you thought were

Christians. They thought they were Christians and they're not walking with the Lord anymore. Or these passages talk about the elect and that the elect cannot fall away.

And I've already explained that the Catholic Church does not disagree on that. The other thing that I would like to finally make as my final point is that there is a difference of perspective here.

And I with all due respect for my brother, I think that one of the problems of Protestantism, and I accused myself when

I was a Protestant, is that we tend to reduce salvation to this moment of conversion and have too reductionistic a view of salvation.

I have been saved. He alluded to that in Ephesians 2 .8 .9, quoted Weiss of Moody Bible, saying there you see clearly eternal security because by grace you have been saved through faith, perfect passive participle.

Glad to hear some Greek tonight. I taught Greek at Westminster Seminary in the graduate program, and as I was mentioned,

I majored in it. So I think it's important to get to the original. But it's, I think, tragic to say just because the

Bible speaks of salvation in the past tense, it's always simply a past accomplished action. That's not the whole story.

The Bible speaks of salvation as a process that begins in the past, continues in the present. The Bible is in the present tense as well.

You are being saved, Peter says in 1 Peter 3 .21, and it uses it in the future. Jesus says, if you, he who endures to the end will be saved,

Matthew 24 .13. So you can say, I have been saved by becoming a Christian, but that does not let you off the hook from saying,

I have to go on being saved day by day as I walk with the Lord and I'm saved by his grace, and only if I endure to the end, as Jesus said, will

I be saved. Thank you very much. In Mr.

Mattisick's remarks in his last period of speaking, first of all, it was said that I had not rebutted the passage he brought up.

Jerry, to be perfectly honest with you, both of us know right now, as you have cards all over your table, I have notes all over my notes, that if either one of us attempted to address with any type of scholarly acumen each and every comment that had been made by the other, we would be here into the early hours of the morning.

We have to attempt to keep our comments directly to the point. You asked me when

I spoke of the majority of the passages I had shared indicated that a Christian could not cease to be a

Christian. I will admit, Jerry, you've got me. I misspoke. All of them do. Not just the majority of them do.

So I will admit that and I appreciate that being caught. Secondly, we can't have a little bit of levity to ease some of the tension, you might say.

Secondly, Mr. Mattisick has alleged that I do not understand that the elect, the difference of the elect and non -elect, and so on and so forth, it's not that I don't understand it,

Jerry. I believe it is utterly unbiblical. I do not believe that the scriptures in any way, shape, or form teach that any individual can be in Christ Jesus, can be born again, can be the recipient of his grace, who is not one of the elect.

There are a number of passages that teach this. Very clearly John 6, 44. Jesus himself in John chapter 6, verse 44, and I encourage you to look at these passages that I know we've been bringing up a lot of them, and I notice that the page rustling is becoming a little quieter each time we stand up here, but persevere, that's what we're talking about tonight, and continue with us to look at the scriptures.

John chapter 44, Jesus says, no man is able to come to me unless the

Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus teaches that there is no man in and of himself, Udais Dunatai, actually there,

Jerry. No man has the ability to come to me unless what happens? The Father who sent

Christ draws him. Now can we take this passage and say, well what this actually means is that God draws all men equally, brings them all to a neutral point by the use of what might be called prevenient grace, and then the decision is left up to them?

No, we cannot do that, because all who are drawn by the Father to the Son are raised up by the

Son in the last day, and given eternal life. And so this passage, and numerous other passages,

Ephesians chapter 1, speaks to the fact that the elect are chosen in Christ Jesus. It is only in Christ Jesus that one has eternal life, that one has righteousness.

It is only in Christ that these things take place, and the scriptures are clear in teaching that this is only in Christ Jesus, and those who are in Christ Jesus are those who are in Him by God's doing.

Remember 1 Corinthians chapter 1 verses 30 and 31? It is by His doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

If it was theoretically possible for a person to not be the eternal object of God's electing grace, and yet to be in Christ Jesus, then 1

Corinthians chapter 1 verse 30 makes no sense, for he says it is by His doing that you are in Christ Jesus.

Which brings me to another point. Jerry, we mentioned very briefly, and it's certainly not the topic of our debate this evening, the concept of sola scriptura.

You said that you're meeting me on the same ground. Jerry, I don't believe that that's a possibility. I do not believe that we meet on the same ground.

I do not believe that you can filter out those concepts that come from another authority that exists alongside of scripture.

I believe that you're reading those into the scriptures, and one of the clearest ones of those is the concept of what man is able or not able to do.

Either the man who is in Christ or outside of Christ. For example, you said Philippians chapter 2 verse 12.

Philippians 2 verse 12. Therefore, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.

I don't deny that. I believe it was alleged. I deny that these warnings are important. I don't deny them. I don't deny the importance of them whatsoever.

But verse 13 of Philippians chapter 2 says, for it is God who is at work within you, both to do and to will according to his good pleasure.

The Christian does work out his salvation with fear and trembling. In fact, that's the promise that is made to him, is that since God is faithful to him, he will work out that salvation.

But he does not do it on his own power. He does not do it in his own ability. He does it through the power and the ability of the

Holy Spirit of God who indwells him. Now, it was alleged that I did not rebut any of the passages that Jerry brought up.

I don't believe that's the case. He was bringing up passages and parables that talked about the importance of forgiveness and things like that, and I pointed out that when we interpret

Scripture, we must go to where the Scripture directly addresses the issue that we are speaking of, rather than going to other passages, create a concept, and then import it into our topic.

But to address what seems to be the most commonly prevailing passages that were brought up by my opponent in the book of Hebrews, if you'd turn with me, for example, to Hebrews chapter 6.

And I am going to use these Hebrews passages as an overarching example, an overarching theme of what

I see in so many of the other passages that Jerry brought up this evening. I am not denying that the

Scriptures tell us, examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith. But I do not believe that that is in any way relevant to the concept of the perseverance of the saints that is based upon the promise of the

Word of God that the sheep that is given by the Father to the Son will not be lost. Why? Because we must recognize the audience to which these warnings are made.

And in the book of Hebrews, we have a perfect example of this. It is almost incredible to think of attempting to explain all of this in three minutes and thirty seconds, but let me try.

The writer to the Hebrews is speaking to a congregation. Any pastor who speaks to his congregation must recognize that sitting in front of him are people of which he does not have omniscient knowledge.

He cannot look into the each person in front of him and know for certain their relationship with Jesus Christ.

And so when he speaks to them, it is the responsibility of that pastor, it is the responsibility of that man of God to warn those who would be in the audience, who are simply a part of the community, who are simply sitting there and they are acting and being religious, that that is not sufficient.

It is not the religious works that you do that will bring you into a position of salvation.

That is not going to cut it. So in Hebrews chapter 6, when the writer writes to the people of the congregation, who is he writing to?

He is writing primarily to Hebrews who are Christians, true Christians. He is writing to individuals who themselves are convinced of the truthfulness of the gospel but have not made a commitment to that.

And he also seemingly in demonstrating the superiority of Jesus Christ is writing to those Hebrews who are not yet convinced of the truthfulness of the gospel and the superiority of the work of Christ to the old law.

And so in speaking to this entire group, he can most definitely say and warn us against the false assurance that can be ours if we think that religious rites and religious activities are enough.

But if we look at Hebrews chapter 6, we are in the case of those who have once been enlightened. Once been enlightened, my learned friend assumed that this means regenerated.

I don't believe that it does. They have been made partakers or sharers of the Holy Spirit. But the term doesn't mean that they were indwelt by the

Holy Spirit. They have tasted the good word of God but have not been saved by its powerful action that we see in 1

Thessalonians 2 .13 and James 1 .21. The parable of verses 7 -8 shows us very clearly what the writer is talking about.

He talks about rain falling on good ground and bad ground. What is this rain? It is the work of God.

It is the blessings of God poured out upon the congregation. But it falls upon two different kinds of ground just like the parable of the sowers.

You have different kinds of ground and they bring forth different kinds of crops, but only one of them brings forth fruit.

Only one of them brings forth fruit, not all of them. And when they bring forth that fruit, that shows what kind of ground they actually are.

But we must remember when we encounter these warning passages that since you and I as sinful human beings do not have absolute and complete knowledge of our own heart, it is good for even those of us who truly will in the future, eschatological working out of all these things, stand before God justified and glorified.

It is important that even we do not cease to examine ourselves because we can be deceived.

But that does not change the promise of Jesus Christ in John chapter 6 that the will of the

Father is that the Son lose none that have been given to him. That is all Christians, not just simply the elect over against the non -elect.

It is easy to get confused when scriptures are just whizzing around at 90 miles an hour, and you're wondering exactly, can

I keep track of all of these things? I think it's important for us to stop periodically and take inventory.

I'm glad that my Calvinistic counterpart here is willing to admit that he was wrong on at least one thing he said earlier.

I suppose it's theoretically possible he might have been wrong on two or maybe even three things he said tonight. At least that's my belief, and if I'm successful in persuading you that that's the case as well, only time will tell, and that's in the hands of the

Lord God Almighty who is sovereign and always does his will. And of course on that we agree. The Hebrew 6th passage, to start with the last thing that was brought up,

I think does, unfortunately for Mr. White's position, does show us that it is possible for people to actually be in a state of salvation.

Remember, Mr. White has just told us that it was addressed to a Christian congregation, and I think it's a little bit unfair to say that these passages simply speak of those who go to church and are trusting in outward rituals and so forth.

The whole book describes these people with very potent phrases.

It describes them as people who have been redeemed, people who have been liberated from sin, who have been taken out of an old covenant that was not able to deliver them.

And the context, this is very important, and I agree with Mr. White on that. These people, in a time of intense persecution by Jews, were being tempted to go back to the old covenant, and Hebrews is saying don't do it.

That whole system is about to pass away. I believe the book was written prior to 70 AD and the destruction of the temple at that point.

But what you need to get a grip on and what I need to get a grip on and what my worthy colleague needs to get a grip on is the fact that these passages tell us that these people have been enlightened, they have tasted the heavenly gift, they have shared in the

Holy Spirit, they have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the power of the coming age, and it says they fall away.

Now what are they falling away from? That's my question.

It is possible to fall away. They're falling away from grace. It is possible to bring them back to repentance, which clearly means that they did repent before at one time.

So I think it's a little bit inaccurate to portray these people as simply nominal, ritualistic people going through the motions who have not repented, who have not had an experience of grace.

I want you to notice, by the way, before we leave that passage, what it is that is going to give these people who do persevere an assurance that God is indeed going to save them.

He says in verse 10, God is unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them.

The point of the passage is clear. Only as those works, those fruits are evident in your life can you know moment by moment,

I believe that I'm a born again child of God. We want each of you to show the same end, he says.

Now this would be pointless if born again people, why doesn't he say, look, if you're born again, you don't need to worry about this.

You cannot lose your salvation. It doesn't teach that, nor does any passage actually say that in those words.

And I want to encourage Mr. White, since he has the affirmer this evening, he's got to come up with a scripture passage which does say that, that you can be born again and you cannot lose your salvation.

I haven't heard one yet. I've heard statements that say the elect cannot fall away and there's no problem on that.

I've heard statements that say that believers will be saved and we both believe that as well.

But where does it say that a born again person cannot fall away? When Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 say that they can.

Or what about 2 Peter 2 verses 1 and 2, a passage I didn't get to. I agree with Mr.

White, we don't have time for everything. But here's a little thing I didn't have time for. In 2 Peter 2 verses 1 and 2,

Peter speaks of false prophets who had been among the people, false teachers. They secretly introduced destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign

Lord who bought them. They were bought by the sovereign

Lord Jesus Christ. They were redeemed. They were purchased with a price.

And therefore they should have glorified God in their body, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6. But they didn't.

They fell into error. They fell into heresy. And the end of this chapter tells us in verses 20 and 21, which

I did read, that they have escaped the corruption of the world. They did know Jesus as Lord and Savior.

It says so. By knowing Jesus as Lord and Savior, they have escaped the corruption of the world, but they have again become entangled in it, and they are now worse off than they were at the beginning.

These passages teach the real possibility of this. That is all that I'm pleading for tonight. Now, John 6 .44,

and by the way, as I look at these passages, I must take a very gentle and yet firm issue with my brother here on whether or not

I am approaching the Scriptures the same way he did, or the same way he does.

I came to these convictions while still a Protestant, while Sola Scriptura was my only rule of faith and practice.

I came to believe on the basis of Scripture, and we don't have time to develop this tonight, on the basis of Scripture, that Scripture itself points to the existence of traditions, 2

Thessalonians 2 .15, that are also the Word of God, that did not get committed to writing, and to a church which

Paul can say is a pillar and foundation of the truth, a church we must listen to, as Jesus said in Matthew 18, the other

Pauline passages, 1 Timothy 3 .15 and 16. But be that as it may, I came to the conclusion that the

Calvinistic concept of born -again Christians cannot fall away was unscriptural while still a person who accepted

Scripture alone. I wasn't reading it through Catholic filters or lenses. So I approached it with the exact same method, and I came, obviously, to a different conclusion.

In John 6 .44, Jesus says, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus is clearly talking about the elect here. But Mr. White would not deny that there are some people who come to Christ.

They come forward at all kinds of Billy Graham crusades, or other evangelistic services, or what have you. They come to Christ, but they don't persevere.

We agree on the existence of that phenomenon. There are people who come to Christ, who repent, who profess faith in Christ, who live a

Christian life, and then they fall away. The question tonight, let's not get confused, is simply, if those people, when such a person falls away, should we say,

He was never born again in the first place. Does the Bible give us the right to say that? I haven't yet heard a single verse which does give us the right to say that.

Or, can we say, that person was enlightened, they were bought by Christ, they were a servant of Christ, God was their

Father, meaning they became His child, they were regenerate, they were born again, and yet they have fallen from grace.

God will not forgive them for falling into sin and not repenting of that sin.

You mentioned the Catholic dogma of mortal sin. It's not the Catholic doctrine, it's the Johannine doctrine.

John says in 1 John 5 that there is a sin unto death. It is possible for a believer, he says, to sin so that he, while he persists in that state, cannot be forgiven.

He talks about this in 1 John 5, verse 16. If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that is not mortal, he should pray, and God will give him life.

But there is a sin that is mortal, and no prayer is going to affect any change in that person's status unless the person repents, as David did.

As I said, David was in mortal sin. He fell from grace, John says so, when he committed the sins of adultery and murder.

He came back into grace by the grace of God, by his willingness to open his heart again to the grace of God.

I also need to take exception, again very gently and very humbly, very firmly, with this statement of Mr.

White's, that the passages that I brought up don't have to do with salvation. Come on, Mr. White, let's look at these passages and see if they talk about something else.

The parable of the unmerciful servant precisely talks about the issue as to whether or not God is going to forgive us when we die.

That is salvation. If that isn't salvation, I don't know what is. Jesus says you will not be forgiven if you don't forgive your fellow

Christians. And by the way, I also have to take exception with this idea that, look, we don't love God perfectly with our hearts, full minds, and we don't forgive perfectly now.

Well, maybe we don't. But we have to be perfect by the time we get to heaven. The Bible is very clear on that.

Revelation 22 says the unclean, nothing impure, shall enter that holy city. Paul says you must be sanctified entirely, thoroughly in spirit and soul and body.

1 Thessalonians 5 .23. Jesus says be perfect through heavenly fathers. There's not going to be imperfect people walking around heaven not loving

God with all their hearts, full mind, and strength, not loving their neighbor, not forgiving their neighbor, but covered with the righteousness of Christ.

You've got to be perfect. Thank you very much. Okay, we've now come to the point in our presentation which will be known as the cross -examination.

And here's the way it'll be done. There will be ongoing cycles of, first of all, up to 30 seconds to pose a question.

Jerry will start posing the first question. He has 30 seconds to pose the question.

Then James has up to two minutes, no more, to respond. And then Jerry has up to one minute to rebut the response that James gave.

And then it'll invert, and James will have 30 seconds to pose a question. Jerry will have up to two minutes to respond, and James will have up to one minute to rebut.

We will do these cycles for a total of 20 minutes, with the final cycle being one in which

James is the one posing the question, Jerry giving his response, and James having the final rebuttal.

Thank you. Can I be heard all right through this mic? Okay. I have many questions which

I want to ask, obviously, but it seems to me the most important one, the one that we all came tonight to hear answered, is where in the

Bible is there a clear, unambiguous statement that says that if someone is truly born again, if someone is redeemed by Christ, if they're bought with a price, they cannot fall away?

Please don't give us, Mr. White, a verse which says the elect cannot fall away, since we agree on that, or a verse which says that Christians are going to be saved by Christ at the last day, since we agree on that as well.

But give us one that says what I just asked for. Well, the restriction placed upon the answer, of course,

I have already said to be a non -biblical restriction. That is the false dichotomy in saying that you have the elect who are saved, then you have the non -elect who may or may not be depending.

We're not really sure whether they could persevere or not. Not being of the elect and not having the Holy Spirit of God, as the

Scriptures would teach, I'm not sure how they could possibly persevere. So obviously, with the restriction, there would be no possible way of answering your question, because the

Scriptures do not speak of Christians who are not of the elect. Therefore, the only way

I can answer the question is to speak of the Scriptures that clearly say, for example, John 6, verses 37 through 39, that these are individuals who are

Christians. They are the ones who are raised up by Jesus Christ. Their salvation is as certain as the

Son doing the will of the Father. And I point out to you again that in verse 44, Jesus clearly says it is impossible for any man to come to the

Son unless the Father who sent him draws him. That is an impossibility to say it's possible for a person to come to Christ without being drawn by the

Father is to totally contradict the words of Jesus Christ in John 6 .44. I want you to remember, ladies and gentlemen, tonight, especially as you drive home this evening, the admission that my cohort did just make, that given that dichotomy between the regenerate and the elect, that it is not possible for him to answer my objection or my question.

Now, it is incumbent upon Mr. White to be able to show us some scriptural evidence for his assertion that you cannot be regenerate unless you are elect.

So I suppose that could be my next question to him, or he can simply supply it whenever he wishes.

But he's skating on thin ice at that point. There are all kinds of passages I've shown you which talk about people being

Christians and having a relationship with God as their Father, and it does not say that they are elect. And John 6 .44,

for the third time tonight, does not help him here. All that John 6 .44 says is that no one can come to Christ unless the

Father draws him. But it says nothing in this particular context that would refute the

Catholic position. Mr. White admits that there are Christians, people who come to Christ, who nevertheless fall away, but they don't come in this ultimate sense, this true sense.

Mr. Mattox, I do not wish to beat a dead horse, but I was just badly misrepresented in what

I have said, and I believe that the scriptures have been badly misrepresented in John 6 .44.

I realize it seems to be a key passage. But could you answer me, sir, and explain how anyone can come unto

Christ except the Father draws them? Do you believe?

Okay, I'll limit it to that unless you wish me to expand upon it. Well, I'm glad that we don't want to beat dead horses tonight.

There might be members of the SPCA out there, and they'd really take us to task. But of course, this is not a dead horse, but a very live issue, and we want to, both of us, be responsible handlers of sacred scripture.

The Catholic Church, I'm sure you know, Mr. White, if you've read the documents of the Council of Trent, teaches every bit as vigorously as the most arch -Calvinist, that every motion of grace in the heart of a believer is planted there by God.

Let's not cloud the issue tonight. The Catholic Church does not deny that we're saved by grace, and no reformer in the 1500s dared to make that accusation.

Trent said loud and clear, we don't believe in sola scriptura, by scripture alone.

We don't believe in sola fide, justified by faith alone, apart from works, because James 2 .24

says, you see, my brothers, that a man is justified by works and not sola fide, not by faith alone.

But we do believe in sola gratia. We believe that we're saved by grace, and that God attracts every person who truly comes to Christ and has emotions of faith towards him.

What the scriptures do teach, however, and you can't make this one passage cover every conceivable opportunity, you've got to interpret this in light of other scriptures, that Jesus himself elsewhere says that people can resist that grace.

They can fall from grace. The phrase falling from grace is used over and over again in scripture.

And so my answer, quite simply, is that the confession that God's grace is the thing that we praise and glorify him for when we get to heaven is not the issue of debate here.

And I take exception with Mr. White's earlier statement that the Catholic Church implies that you are saved, that it isn't by the virtue of the

Holy Spirit working for you. Not at all. In answer, I was going to look a little bit at the

Cans and Crees of the Council of Trent here and point out that these Cans and Crees are very clear in emphasizing that this justification that is ours, the whole process of salvation, may be made available on the basis of grace, but it is not solely by grace.

It may be solely made available by grace, but it's not solely by grace by which one avails himself of that salvation.

But you just made a couple of statements. First of all, you said falling from grace, the term used in scripture over and over again.

Please correct me if I have forgotten many of them, but Galatians 5 .4 seems to be the only place that I can recall that and in context is referring only to those who seek to be justified by works of legalism.

But back to John 6 .44, each time you address this passage, you don't seem to deal with the fact that all those who are drawn by the

Father in this passage, and you sir mentioned your training in Greek, all those who are drawn by the

Father in this passage are raised up by the Son in the last day. There is no question about that.

No question whatsoever. So a person who is drawn... I respect that,

Primer there. I really do. I'm not too happy about it, but I've got to abide by it too.

Could you tell us please, Mr. White, what Paul meant when he said to Timothy in 2

Timothy 2, starting in verse 11, here's a trustworthy saying, if we died with him, meaning

Christ, we will also live with him. If we endure, if we endure, we will also reign with him.

But if we disown him, he will also disown us. If we are faithless, he will remain faithful for he cannot disown himself.

Yes. If anyone will look at 2 Timothy 2, verses 11 through 14, Paul says the saying is faithful.

If we died with him, we shall live with him. If we are remaining or abiding, then we shall also reign with him.

And Mr. Matics, again, I primarily draw your attention to this since you bring it up. If you will notice the actual text of the passage, sir, died with him is past tense, live with him future.

If we remain with him is present tense, reign with him is future. But if you will notice, if we deny him, he also will deny us both of those, sir, in the

Greek text in front of you, our future tense. This is exactly what I was talking about when I was talking about the

Hebrew passages. The writer is writing to Timothy, and here he seemingly is quoting a hymn of the church because these are plurals, as you can see, talking to Christians.

And in talking to these individuals, those people in the church that he does not have fallible knowledge that they themselves are of the elect, then he makes it clear that if we died with him, we shall live with him.

If we are remaining with him, we will also reign with him. But he says in the future, and I would suggest to you that this is fantastically a future nomic usage, that if anyone denies

Christ, he also shall be denied by him. Now, if you are jumping to the conclusion that the entire audience that is being addressed has to be and must be all believers, every single one of them of the elect of God, participants in the grace of God, then you would have your point made.

But you cannot demonstrate that Paul is claiming to have, and the church claims to have, absolute, full, omniscient knowledge that everyone who hears her hymns sung is of the elect of God.

It is true that any... That thing is merciless.

Hopefully the Lord will have more mercy with both of us on the Day of Judgment. I think one of the major themes in this passage, however, and throughout the epistle, and as Mr.

White pointed out, it is addressed to Christians. People who have confessed faith in Christ, who believe, and yet it is possible,

Jesus says in the parable of the sower, look at Luke 8, it is possible to believe for a while and then to fall away, to disown

Christ, and then to be disowned by him. This is the language Paul uses throughout these pastoral epistles, 1 and 2

Timothy and Titus. He says it is possible to wander away from the faith, 1

Timothy 1 .5 and 6, and 6 .10 and 21. It is possible to shipwreck our faith, 1 .19.

It is possible to abandon our faith, 1 Timothy 4 .1. It is possible to deny the faith, 5 .8.

We can destroy our faith, 2 Timothy 2 .18. We can be alienated from Christ, Galatians 5 .4.

Fall away from grace, same passage. We can wander from the truth, 2

Timothy 2 .18. It implies that once we are in this position, we fall out of it. Mr.

Mattox, it may sound just like a... Well, first I'd like to ask you another question. It seems to me,

Jerry, that the key issue that has developed here is the concept of the existence of saved individuals outside of the electing or election of God, outside of being in the elect.

Let me ask you, do you believe in light of Romans chapter 3, verses 10 through 18?

I've got to finish the question. That a person who is not of the elect of God could possibly in of themselves actually truly come to God, come to Christ?

Well, since you took an extra 10 seconds, I will too in my answer. But you always take an extra 10 seconds,

Jerry, that's the point. Okay, then we'll call it even. Obviously, the issue tonight is the question that you have on the flyers, and I don't want to get sidetracked by my opponent.

I don't think that's, although that's a clever debating tactic, I don't think it's one that I should abide by.

The issue tonight is not whether it's possible to be born again without being elect.

I would simply ask my worthy opponent to read the relevant sections in St. Thomas' Summa Theologiae, or in any of Augustine's treatises on predestination, or to study any standard work of the

Catholic Church's dogmas, like Fundamentals of the Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, or The Christian Faith as Illustrated in the

Doctrinal Documents of the Catholic Church, edited by Neuner and Dupuy. And he will see a distinction made there between the elect and the regenerate, that there are people whom

God has foreordained from before the foundation of the world, and his elect will not fail to arrive at their heavenly destination.

And nonetheless, God has chosen for his own purposes to allow some people to come to him and to have, as it were, a temporary faith, but those people are truly born again.

And the passages I've alluded to talk about them over and over again. Now, Mr. White might say, why would God do that? As a matter of fact, he said, how could that glorify

God? How could that, if someone can fall away, because for his words, how does God receive glory from that?

Well, he has the same problem. How does God receive glory from the fact that some people never respond, that they remain reprobate, and that they are sent to hell?

Whether they were a Christian for a while and then fall away, or they're never a Christian, or they had a false faith, and they were never born again in the first place, as everyone thought they were.

Is God glorified by that? Yes. Because I believe, and it's important for you to know, that the

Catholic Church and St. Thomas and St. Augustine and the great theologians of the Catholic Church believe in the predestination of God as every bit as much as Calvin does.

That is not the issue here. But God is glorified. Well, speaking of clever debating tactics, obviously my question was not meant as a clever debating tactic.

My question was based upon a statement made by you in your own statements from the podium. I asked you, in light of Galatians chapter 3, verses 10 through 18, verse 11 specifically says, there is none who understands, there is none who seeks

God. There is no God seeker, according to verse 11 of chapter 3, Jerry. How it could be possible that there would be a person who would come to Christ when the scriptures clearly say they are unable to do so and they do not seek

Christ? I do not need to go to Thomas or to anyone else to come up with the idea that there are people who can come to Christ who are not of the elect of God.

This is the whole point. The point of the scripture is, there is no such person as that. None whatsoever.

Nowhere in the Bible will you find such an individual according to the scriptures that we have examined here tonight.

None at all. My turn to ask a question?

Would you please tell us, Mr. White, what in fact these passages that I brought up where Jesus clearly teaches that someone can be a

Christian and by their subsequent behavior fail to receive final forgiveness from God and therefore obviously not enter heaven, what do these passages mean if they do not mean what

I say they mean? The passages I am referring to are Matthew 18, verses 25 -35, the parable of the unmerciful servant, or let's say take the other passage from Jesus in Luke 12, verses 42 -46.

Either of those. Again, I must emphasize, since it seems to be said over and over again that I don't believe this, that the scriptures do contain many warnings addressed to those within the community of faith in regards to examining themselves.

I have also said, hopefully over and over again, that I believe that within the community of faith, and I believe the scriptures make it clear that within the community of faith, you have both those individuals who are not truly born again, who are not of the elect, who have never received the grace of God, and you have those who have.

How can you tell the difference? Infallibly, you can't until the end time, but one of the main differences is brought out in the passages that you have brought to my attention here, that those who truly are

Christians, those who truly have received the grace of God, will respond in certain ways.

They will act in certain ways. Certain actions of God in their lives will be seen. They will be individuals who forgive, but I want to mention to you and emphasize it again, that I do not believe, and I'd have to wonder if you are saying that our salvation is not dependent upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, but upon how perfectly we forgive our brothers.

Is that what you're really saying? Because I believe as a Protestant that the righteousness of Jesus Christ has been imputed to me, and as Jesus Christ perfectly forgave,

Jesus Christ perfectly loved, that is the righteousness that I plead before God. You're right. No unclean man will stand before God on Judgment Day.

I do not stand before God, clothed in my own righteousness. I stand before God, clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and a person who is clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ can never possibly fall into the condemnation of the

Father. My answer to that is that that really makes a mockery of all the passages in Scripture which say that salvation is not simply a matter of covering dirty people with a clean sheet, but making them clean.

The Scriptures are clear that we must be perfect to enter heaven.

Heaven is not going to be populated with people who, as I said, are running around saying, well,

I don't love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. I don't love my neighbors myself. I don't forgive my brother, but I get to be here anyway because all my dirtiness is covered.

That is a Protestant conception of justification that was a novelty in the 1500s, and even

Protestants like Alistair McGrath, in his book Eustachia Dei, will admit that. The problem here is that Mr.

White is reading into those passages about justification this a priori presupposition that it's imputed and not infused.

Christ makes us righteous. It's a process that culminates in our being actually perfect ourselves when we get to heaven.

Jerry, we'll have two minutes, and you'll have one minute to respond. Okay, thank you.

Thank you very much. One quick question, Jerry. You rejected my interpretation of Hebrews 6, asserting that these are all born -again believers that are addressed there.

I'm sorry, what verse? Hebrews 6, verses 4 through 6. You rejected that and seemingly indicated that you felt that these are truly born -again believers only that are addressed here.

Then connected that, as I recall, and please correct me if I'm wrong, with 1 John 5, mortal sin.

Do you, in the light of John 6, verses 4 through 6, believe that a person who has committed mortal sin cannot possibly be renewed unto repentance?

To answer your question, no. Obviously, the passage indicates that there are some people who remain in penitent, and of course there is no second sacrifice that's going to be provided for them.

The sacrifice of Christ, as you point out, is all -sufficient. And it's important for me, I want to go on the record and defend the

Catholic faith as not denying that. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ is all -sufficient.

The question is, how does that sacrifice work out in our life? In other words, does the sacrifice of Christ on the cross have bear fruit by the

Spirit of Christ working through us and conforming us, as Paul says in Romans 8, a passage you alluded to, to the image of Christ?

It's not simply a matter of covering us with a white robe, but making us holy, day -by -day sanctification.

Without holiness, which we're commanded to follow after, no one will see the Lord. Now, already justified believers in Mr.

White's view of justification don't need to follow after holiness. Why? They can see the Lord without a personal holiness. But the

Bible does not teach that, folks. And so, I'm sorry if I get a little excited here, but it's out of love for Christ and his

Word, and out of love for you and your souls, that I want to warn you from adopting what I see as a rather superficial and unscriptural view of justification.

You and I must obey Jesus Christ day -by -day, minute -by -minute, to continue to be his sheep, the children of God, who will be saved when we die and at the end of time.

So, my answer to your question is, no, I can believe that we can be brought back.

That passage is talking about specific people who cannot be brought back and will not, but that doesn't change my general point that it is possible to have all those things true of you, to be born again, to be enlightened, and yet, nonetheless, to have the

Holy Spirit, to be redeemed by Christ, to be purchased by him, and yet to fall away.

And he really hasn't answered that. He hasn't shown us, and he still is kind of like a fish up on the beach, kind of flopping around, not showing us what these passages of our

Lord do mean, that say we can be children of God, he can be our Heavenly Father, and yet he will not forgive us if we don't forgive others.

Two things. Was that the beeper, or was that someone else's? Yes, it was, about 10 seconds ago.

I would like to point out, first of all, that the passage in Hebrews 6, 4 -6, was used by Mr. Matzix earlier to demonstrate that it's possible to be a

Christian and fall away, and now he says, well, but it doesn't really mean that if you're one of these people and you fall away, you can't be restored.

The passage won't allow that. If you fall away, if you believe these people are truly believers, it is impossible for them to be restored.

But I must, must respond to the incredibly inaccurate caricature of a position that,

Jerry, you have over and over again claimed to have once been a scholar of. To say that the Protestant doctrine of justification teaches that a person can be justified and not be concerned about holiness and have no need to follow

Christ is an incredibly erroneous demonstration of a misunderstanding of the

Protestant doctrine of justification. At this point, we'll have our final comments.

First of all, James will have 10 minutes to come to the podium for his closing remarks, followed by Jerry's 10 minutes of closing remarks.

I'm afraid I'm going to hear one of these things in my dreams. And what

I mean by that is the fact that, obviously, there is an element of frustration for me in regards to the constraint of any debate like this where we have so little time.

And I apologize to anyone who feels somewhat confused about the issues that have been presented in the light of the brevity of time that we have had to address these issues.

I believe it has become very clear, at least certainly to me, that the opening remarks that I made were very accurate in what they said.

Where Jerry and I differ is on the very foundation. Jerry and I differ completely about the sovereignty of God and salvation.

When I speak of the sovereignty of God and salvation, I mean that if God intends to save a person, He can accomplish that.

Totally. When I speak of the work of Jesus Christ, I do not speak of the work of Jesus Christ simply making salvation available.

Simply being sufficient to make it available, but accomplishing salvation. When I speak of mankind dead in his sin,

I do not speak of anyone even desiring to come to Christ outside of the work of the

Holy Spirit in their heart. That must be the single most basic difference between Jerry and I. Because Jerry has seemingly circumvented the issue, in my opinion, by saying, oh yes,

I agree that with the elect, their salvation is certain. Though, if you read the

Cairns and the Creed of the Council of Trent, the elect are saved also through all these sacraments and things like that.

I don't know how their salvation can be so certain when their own actions are still required. But aside from all of that, there is this other group that is presented.

These people who come to Christ, and they're saved, and then they fall away in their law, but they're not of the elect.

And I say, I'm sorry, there is no such person. The scriptural teaching about the heart of man outside of the redeeming grace of Jesus Christ simply will not allow that position to stand, my friend.

If there is anyone who thinks himself, in his heart, that it is possible for your heart, you sitting right there tonight, if you think it is possible that outside of the work of the

Spirit of God in regenerating you, taking you from being a spiritually dead man to making you a spiritually alive man or woman, if you think that outside of that work of Christ, you would ever have sought to submit yourself to the

Lordship of Jesus Christ and to trust in Him as Savior, you have not read the book of Romans. For it is clear without argument that there is no

God -seeker. There is none who seeks to believe in Jesus Christ outside of the first movement of God in their life.

None. And to be deceived into thinking that there can be such people, that we are really not totally in need of the regenerating work of Christ, which of course precedes our faith biblically, if we can possibly think that our hearts are actually not so dirty, not so unclean, that this would allow us to come to Christ without Christ first drawing us, then we have not understood our hearts.

Yes, the issue of the perseverance of the saints really does go back to the foundational elements.

I submit to you that scriptures clearly and inarguably teach that a man outside of the work of the

Holy Spirit in his life will not come to Christ. And I also make it very clear that the person who is drawn by the

Father, John chapter 6, is raised up by the Son and cannot possibly be lost unless it is possible for the

Son to fail to do the will of the Father. Seemingly, in regards to the elect,

Jerry has agreed with me. In regards to the elect, that's true. But there's this other group out there who are truly born again.

But no one is truly born again outside of the Holy Spirit making them alive. And the Holy Spirit can make no one alive outside of the work of Christ being done in their behalf.

They can't be forgiven, redeemed, justified, all these things, unless they are part of the elect of God, unless they have been joined with Christ Jesus from eternity past,

Ephesians 1 .4. So it is not in any way a clever debating trick on my part to attempt to sidetrack the issue.

For the thesis statement said that a Christian cannot cease to be a

Christian. And it is very germane to the issue to point out what a

Christian is. What is a Christian? Are all Christians somehow more special than other people?

Was I more holy or better than someone else? No. Then what determines who is and who is not a

Christian? The choice of God is great. You didn't differ from anyone else.

You were just as much under the condemnation of God as I was. But God moved in your life, if you know

Him tonight. And if you know Him tonight, you know in your heart, before He moved in your life, you wanted to have nothing to do with Him.

But He is the one who started working in your life. He, by His grace. He, by His mercy. And I submit to you that nowhere in the scriptures does it teach that God does that.

That God works in that person's life. That God works by the Holy Spirit to bring them unto Christ Jesus.

Joins them unto Christ Jesus. Makes them to confess that they died with Christ.

When in fact they didn't. When in fact they are not amongst the elect. Paul in Galatians 2 says,

I have been crucified with Christ, and unless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me. And the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the

Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. The Christian, every Christian, can confess that he died with Christ.

But Mr. Matitix has told us that there are certain Christians who, though they may have died with Christ, are not of the elect, and they may not persevere, and they may be lost.

Think about that with me for a second. Think about what it means to say that a person who died with Christ, what does that mean?

What are we really saying? Are we really saying that the death of Christ is totally and completely sufficient when we make that statement, or are we denying it?

I submit that it is possible for anyone to say that a person can die with Christ, and every

Christian makes that statement, must make that statement. And it's possible to say that the death of Christ can be of no effect at all.

A person died with Christ and they end up under the punishment of God in eternity. What does that say about the work of Christ?

The issue, my friends, this evening has become very clear. Not necessarily intentionally so, but it has become clear, thanks be to the

Lord, the issue truly here is, is salvation not just a plan?

Not sacrament? Not possibility? But is salvation itself totally and completely of God, or is it not?

I submit to you that it cannot be otherwise. It cannot be otherwise. The dichotomy upon which

Mr. Medetix has denied the force of the clear passages from John 6, John 10, Colossians 3, 1

Corinthians 1, and each of these places where the force of these passages is thought to be deflected upon the basis of the creation of a false dichotomy of an elect and a non -elect, but the elect somehow are saved anyways, is just that.

It's an attempt to avoid the force of the clear teaching of Scripture. This evening,

I do not want you to leave this place thinking that the representation has been made of the

Protestant position by such statements that we feel that it is not necessary to pursue holiness.

Any person who has been changed by the Spirit of God will desire to pursue holiness, but it is not my pursuit of holiness that adds to my salvation.

I can add nothing to the finished work of Jesus Christ. Nothing. We do believe that we must, if we wish to glorify our

Lord who in his love has drawn us unto himself, pursue holiness. But when we get to the point of starting saying that it is that action on our behalf that then completes the work of Christ, it must happen or we're never going to be saved, that is where we have begun compromising the work of Jesus Christ.

And that is not the Protestant position in any way, shape, or form. Jesus Christ will do the will of the

Father. Those the Father gives to him will be saved. That is, of course, the historical doctrine of perseverance and salvation.

Thank you very much. Ladies and gentlemen,

I did not say that Protestants are not concerned with holiness. And if you were listening carefully, you understand that far from that being a misrepresentation, that I was being misrepresented.

What I commented on was Mr. White's statement that when he stands before God in heaven, when he is judged, that he is not going to be judged on what he is in his own personal right or lack thereof, but simply by the fact that Christ's righteousness is imputed to him.

Therefore, he does not need holiness to get to heaven. Not that he's not concerned, right?

And I'm saying that Scripture doesn't teach that. There is not a single passage of Scripture which says that. Yet on the contrary, it says that we must follow after holiness, without which we will not see the

Lord. It says that no imperfect or impure thing will enter heaven. Heaven is a perfect place for perfect people.

And anyone who thinks they can get to heaven and stand before God simply on the basis of the imputed righteousness of Christ, without any infused righteousness with Christ having made them righteous, which is all of grace and all the work of the

Holy Spirit, is in for a terrifically rude awakening. Paul said in Philippians 1 .6

that the God who began a good work in us will carry it on to completion on the day of Jesus Christ, the day when he returns.

But that work must be carried to completion, you see. It's not enough to simply say, well, I accepted

Christ back then and I have his righteousness imputed to me and that's all that I need.

That's not what Paul says in Philippians 1 .6. We don't differ on the foundations as much as Mr.

White would like to represent it. He said we differ completely. And I want to reiterate that that is a misrepresentation.

You can read for yourself the statements of the Catholic Church at the

Council of Trent in the heyday of the dispute between the Protestant Reformers and the

Catholic Church. You can read what they said about salvation and they will say what I have said tonight and what

Scripture says, that God the Father is sovereign in salvation. He is the one who makes the whole thing happen.

And that God has an electing purpose. And secondly, that Jesus Christ's sacrifice is all -sufficient and that everything that happens in the life of a believer is simply a fruit of that sacrifice offered upon the cross.

When Jesus bowed his head and said, it is finished, he meant exactly that. But the fruit that he purchased for us was the gift of the indwelling

Holy Spirit. And it is the Holy Spirit who brings us to Christ and plants repentance and faith in our hearts.

And you will find in vain any statement in the Council of Trent or any other Catholic Council which says, no, we come to Christ on our own.

We don't need the Holy Spirit. We don't need God's revenient grace wooing us. That is not what the Catholic Church teaches.

So you've seen a straw man trampled here tonight, but not what the Catholic Church actually teaches. We totally affirm that we are utterly beholden to God, the triune

God, the Father who elects us, the Son who died for us, the Holy Spirit who works in us, but who is willing to do the

Father's good pleasure for our salvation. We will arrive in heaven by the grace of God alone, a grace that came to us when we were utterly undeserving and unworthy.

But that grace works through a process. And that's what the issue in many ways has degenerated to in this debate tonight.

Is salvation a necessary process or not? The scriptures that I pointed to say that it is.

It's a process that includes membership in Christ's Church, being a part of the body of Christ, being a branch in the vine.

And Mr. White said, look, the Holy Spirit puts you in Christ. How can you even be in Christ, as Paul said in 1

Corinthians 1, without being placed there by the Holy Spirit? Of course. But listen to what Jesus says.

That's all I'm begging with you. Don't listen to what I have to say. Listen to what Jesus says in John 15 .6.

He says in John 15 .6 that unless a man remains in me, any branch that does not remain in me will be thrown aside, will wither up, and will be cast into the fire to be burned.

So contrary to what Mr. White would like the scriptures to teach, Jesus teaches that you can be placed in him by the

Holy Spirit, of course, by the grace of God. You can receive that privileged position of being in Christ.

And if you stay in Christ, if you stay on that bus, that bus is headed for heaven. But what these warnings tell us is that we are not manacled or shackled to the bus.

It is possible for someone to really get on the bus and to really decide later on, the terrific, tragic, the terrifically tragic decision, to get off that bus and say,

I don't want to ride it anymore. And that is what all those passages I cited say. And, you know,

Mr. White, you know, it's been said there's been no problem so big or so uncomfortable that you can't run away from it.

And I don't want Mr. White or myself or anyone to think they can hold their arms out over a batch of text, like the ones

I cited, and say, text, text, go away, come again some other day. He cited texts which do not, not a single one of them.

Look them up. Take your time. You might think this will happen too quickly. Go home and read the verses he read to you. Do they say that someone who is truly born again cannot fall away?

Does one of them say that? No. He failed to produce a single solitary verse. And therefore, by the rules of the debate, he failed to win the debate.

The burden of proof is on the one who holds the affirmative. The affirmative, the position, the proposition is someone who is truly born again, who is truly a

Christian cannot cease to be a Christian and so lose their salvation. And contrary to his failure to produce a single verse which says that,

I've produced numerous verses which do just that. In Matthew 18, 35, Jesus talks to people who are children of God.

He calls them that. And he says, if you don't forgive your brother, your fellow Christian, your heavenly father will not forgive you.

I ask Mr. White to tell us what that verse could mean. If it doesn't mean the straightforward sense that we will not be forgiven by God.

And he couldn't give us an answer. Why? Because there is no answer. That text poses a problem to his theological system.

Jesus says the same thing in Luke 12, 42 -46, that a servant of Christ who starts out being faithful, full of faith and wise, and placed in a position of responsibility can decide to become irresponsible and to be cast out and assigned a place with the unbelievers, to go from being saved to being lost.

And I asked him, please tell us, what does that passage mean? If it doesn't mean what the Catholic Church has taught for 2 ,000 years.

And he couldn't tell us, because there is no answer. I pointed passages. He said, you know, Jesus, well, let's talk about Paul.

You know, if anyone says a person can die with Christ and be lost, there's something wrong with that person.

Well, then I say, there's something wrong with Paul. Because Paul, as he reminded us, said in Galatians 2, 20,

I have been crucified with Christ. And it's no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me. Who knew

Christ was living in him? He knew the Holy Spirit was working through him, and he rejoiced in that. And he knew if he kept up in that, that he would get to heaven.

But this same Paul, folks, said in 1 Corinthians 9, 27, that I watch out, lest after preaching the gospel to others,

I myself should be rejected. Rejected. Cast away.

Fail to receive salvation. Which is what that word of Documents means, as 2 Corinthians 13, 5 makes clear.

I think over and over again, what we're seeing is that Mr. White doesn't have a problem so much with what I'm saying, but what Jesus has said in his passage, and what

Paul has said. Now, I know he wouldn't put it that way, but he hasn't given us any sufficient answers. Peter is no different.

Peter said that these false teachers, who had now fallen away, knew Jesus as Lord and Savior.

I showed you the verse, 2 Peter 2, 20. Read it. Wrestle with it. They were sanctified by the blood of Christ.

The Lord bought them, he says in verse 2. And yet they fall away. Mr. White has wasted some of our time tonight saying that, you know, going on and on about how anyone who says you can come to the

Holy Spirit without, or you can come to Christ without the Holy Spirit giving you faith, is really downplaying the effects of the fall.

The Catholic Church doesn't teach that. We believe that the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation. And we believe that the

Holy Spirit will inspire us to be obedient to Jesus Christ, to carry out all his commands, like the command found in John 6, that passage which we kept coming back to, that says, unless a man eats my flesh and drinks my blood.

Jesus said in John 3, you must be born again of water and the Spirit. So the sacraments are part of our obedience to Christ.

They're not something we add to our commitment to Christ. They're the way, precisely, that we live it out.

Adam, Saul, David, these examples were not addressed at all, because there is no answer. Folks, Mr.

White, God bless him. I appreciate his zeal and his love for Christ, has not presented the case tonight.

And for that reason, he has lost the debate. I admire his intelligence and his zeal, but I pray for him that Christ will show him the air of his ways.

Thank you very much. Challenged and stimulated to your own pursuit of the

Lord's Word, both of these gentlemen have spent much time in study and in dialogue and in preparation.

And we do thank both of you for your challenge to us this evening. It's great when they end up such good friends, isn't it?

I also want to thank you for your patience tonight. It's been a long evening. We're not going to keep you longer here.

But I do want to say one thing. I want to challenge all of you, and myself as well, to accept freely the challenge that we receive in 2

Timothy 2 .15. Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.

There's many verses I'm sure that you will leave tonight saying, I need to think more about those statements. And I would just challenge you to pursue those particular things that the

Lord has laid on your heart. Final comments here. We want to remind you that if you would like to have further opportunity to dialogue with either

Alpha Omega, of which James and his team here represent, or Catholic Answers, of which

Jerry and his team represent, we would encourage you to have that opportunity to do so as you leave. If you'd like further information about what they're saying or about a relationship with Jesus Christ, we would encourage you to pursue what the

Lord would lead you in that area. My colleague here,

Mr. White, and I want to leave this up to you, Mr. Moderator. Normally when Catholic Answers has debates like this, we have as a part of the program, as a part of the debate, questions and answers from the audience, where you get to ask a question, you address it to one person, they answer it in a couple minutes, or the person has a minute for it.

But we didn't do that this evening. But I was saying to Mr. White that if people are interested in doing that, and if, and this is the big if, if it's something that the

Church, which is hosting, we don't want to keep the Church opening later than it needs to be. It might need to close. But you would know,

I heard at the beginning that you were one of the pastors of the Church. If you want to do that, we're just saying that Mr.

White and myself are both willing to stand up here for a few minutes and field some questions. You might be brimming over with things you wanted to ask and you didn't get, or verses that you thought neither of us brought up that we should have.

So this would be a chance for some audience interaction. But I really leave that up to the Church, which has been very gracious to host us, and up to you.

I'll tell you what I think we'll do is we will go ahead and dismiss, for those of you that have time commitments that need to leave.

And then if you would like to stay behind, those who would choose to do so, the facility will be open for some further time for that kind of dialogue.

But that will be after we have our dismissal, and you'll have the choice of either leaving or staying around afterwards.

If you'd like to check the book tables, they are still available for both of these organizations. We do want to make you aware of the debate that will be taking place in 10T tomorrow night with both, again,

James White and Jerry Matiticks. On the subject was Peter as Pope. This will be over at City of the

Lord Christian Community Center at 711 West University in Tempe, Arizona. Instructions on how to get there are at the book table.

If you'd like to go there, that will be tomorrow evening at 7 p .m. as well. The position that will be debated is

Peter was given a position of primacy in the Christian Church that is to be continued through the ages. Jerry Matiticks, in this situation, will be affirming that, and James White will be denying that.

Would you stand with me as we close? I'd like to just close by reading the doxology found in Jude, verses 24 and 25.

To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy, to the only

God our Savior, be glory, majesty, power, and authority through Jesus Christ our

Lord before all ages, now and forevermore. Everybody said amen. Thank you very much.