November 17, 2020 Show with Dennis E. Roe on “Reformed Theology & Missions: A Perfect Match”

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Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at IronSharpensIronRadio .com.

01:20

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on the 17th day of November, 2020, and before I introduce to you my guest,

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I request once again some very urgent prayer for my dear friend of many years, over 25 years actually, who is an

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Orthodox Presbyterian pastor on Long Island, New York, Pastor Meit Plugman, that's

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M -E -I -N -T, P as in Peter, L -O -E -G -M -A -N, Meit Plugman, he's originally from Holland and came here to the

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United States some time ago. He is the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Bohemia, Long Island, New York.

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Well, if you were listening yesterday, you heard the tragic news that on Sunday morning he fell off of a ladder while cleaning leaves out of a gutter at his church building, and he fell 10 feet, and unfortunately he has severe brain damage, and I believe the family has met or is meeting with the doctors today to discuss whether or not he will be removed from life support.

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So please pray for this dear brother, and pray for the Plugman family as they are faced with this decision and as they cope with losing a precious loved one like dear brother

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Meit, and I will give you updates as I have them. Today we have on our program a returning guest.

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His name is Dennis E. Rowe. He's the General Secretary of Westminster Biblical Mission, and today we are going to be addressing

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Reform Theology and Missions, a perfect match, and we'll be hearing more about some updates that you'll need to know about Westminster Biblical Mission and the services they provide for the body of Christ, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dennis E.

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Rowe. Thank you very much, Chris. It's my privilege to be here today and share with you what

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God is doing and the fields that we are called to serve with Westminster Biblical Mission.

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Great. Well, why don't you right off the bat tell our listeners about Westminster Biblical Mission. Well, Westminster Biblical Mission was founded in 1973 in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania, your home state now, and it came about from a couple of missionaries who were doing work and they became, so to say, disenfranchised by their sending board.

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Sadly, those things happen, but they were Presbyterian and Reformed, and they realized that they needed to have oversight, and so they called upon men that they knew in the ministry and some laymen who were committed

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Christian brothers in Presbyterian and Reformed churches and asked them to come together and help them to have oversight, and they organized the board, and so it had that beginning.

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These were missionaries from Brazil originally who had worked together, and then they began looking for God's meeting in a call, and one brother really believed it was like a

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Macedonian call for him to go to South Korea, and the other was led to Pakistan.

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Those were their two beginning fields for Westminster Biblical Mission, and God blessed the work in South Korea to grow and become self -sufficient, self -supporting, self -governing.

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Those are our goals as a mission always with the fields that we work in.

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We weren't that original in that thought. That actually came from John Nebius, a notable

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Reformed minister and missionary in the 19th century, and Nebius' method was to build up the indigenous population to be that very thing, self -governing, self -propagating, and self -supporting.

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So that's a basic philosophy that governs our mission field.

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We believe it's a Biblical philosophy that this is what

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God would have us to do. We don't lord it over one another when we go into a particular area of the world.

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We go as brothers in Christ, and maybe that we're mature brothers, but we're brothers and we believe that these brothers will be competent leaders in time.

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We often are laboring to build them up, to have training and so forth, so that they can take on those responsibilities that lead to that goal of being self -governing, self -propagating, self -supporting.

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By the way, brother, are you using a speakerphone because you're just slightly muffled? You're still audible, but you're slightly muffled.

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I am. I'm using my iPhone. I moved since I was last on the program, and closer to the big city, and yet I'm kind of muffled.

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This is my main form of communication. Okay, I guess we'll just have to cope with the audio quality the way it is.

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One of the things that our audience may be unfamiliar with is the primary denominational affiliation that you have, the

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Reformed Church in the United States, otherwise known as the R .C .U .S.,

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formerly known as the Eureka Classics. Why don't you tell our listeners about the

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R .C .U .S.? I'd be glad to. That is my denomination that I've been privileged to serve.

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Since 1983, I had been a minister when it was the

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Eureka Classics, so I was there for the organization of our Synod, which we now have four classes that make up that Synod.

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It's not that Westminster Biblical Missions is exclusive to the

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R .C .U .S., but just in God's providence, that's been my denomination.

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As we need new board members, the fellowship

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I have within that context has been primary, and of course

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I know these brothers well, and we're very concerned about having men who serve with us that are sound in doctrine and in practice.

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So we do have the majority on the board, although it's not always been the case.

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There have been times where PCA brothers and OPC brothers dominated the board, but with the 30 years that I've now served, this is my 30th year as General Secretary, it's been that influence.

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The Reformed Church of the United States is a historic denomination. We are in our 272nd

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Synod. I may be off on that. I haven't been there for all of them, that's for sure,

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Chris, but I've been there for a number. I retired from the active pastoral ministry five years ago with some health issues, but I continue to labor within the bounds of the

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R .C .U .S. We have a majority now from the

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Reformed Church, and of course a little difference is that brothers from, you know, strictly

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Reformed usually are holding to the three forms of unity. Well, we certainly are in agreement with them, and we have to be to be administered in the

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R .C .U .S. The governing creedal documents for Westminster Biblical Missions are the

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Westminster Standards. That was the history of Westminster Biblical Missions in the first place with the initial missionaries who helped define this.

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All those brothers are no longer with us. One has graduated to the

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Church Victorious, and another has retired in his 80s.

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Now, is there anything that sets the R .C .U .S. apart from some of the other major Reformed denominations like the

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O .P .C., like the P .C .A., like the A .R

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.P., and other of the more well -known

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Reformed denominations? And of course, let me throw in there the

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R .P .C .N .A., the Reformed Presbyterian Church of North America, known as the

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Covenanters, who are set apart due to their belief in exclusive psalmody in worship and also exclusive a cappella worship, although there are pastors and congregations within the other denominations

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I mentioned who also have adopted that position, although in those other denominations they are a minority.

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So is there anything that would stand out as being unique to the R .C .U .S.?

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Well, I'm afraid so. I'll answer it that way. It shouldn't be unique to the

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R .C .U .S. I mean, we are very strict about our ministers and office bearers holding to six -day creation, six normal days of creation.

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Well, that's refreshing to hear. That's an anomaly in our day,

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I'm sad to say. But I think it's a requirement for the faculty at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in South Carolina, I'm almost certain on that.

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Yes, I believe that's correct. Our brother Joey Pipe has done an excellent work there, no doubt.

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Morton Smith and others that I'm quite familiar with. And we also, you know, the issue of women in ecclesiastical office and other things that seem to, you know, going with whatever is politically correct, whichever way the wind is blowing, denominations seem to be battling with these things within and even wavering on them, whereas they're just not even an issue with us in the

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R .C .U .S. You know, our big concern is being faithful and, you know, bringing the gospel to this generation and doing that locally with our home mission works of planting churches and as well internationally with foreign missions.

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And I'm happy to say that our denomination does recommend Westminster Biblical Missions.

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It helps with some support. It's voluntary, but I'm just amazed at our little church as it is.

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I mean, we only have, you know, 50 congregations at the most and how generously they give and support, you know, the work of Westminster Biblical Missions, not only ours, but our denominations working in Africa, which

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I've helped with, and the Philippines, and it's just amazing.

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So that's a real encouragement to me. Well, if anybody wants to find out more about Westminster Biblical Mission, you can go to wbminc .org

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and hopefully we will remember to repeat that later on in the program.

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Well, before I get into some specific details regarding updates all over the world in regard to Westminster Biblical Missions, I'd like you to spend some time seeking to clarify to our listeners how

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Reformed theology is not only compatible with the notion of missions, they are in perfect harmony, unlike the slanderous accusations that many outside of the

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Reformed faith hurl at us, we who are Reformed, who teach that Calvinism is the death knell of missions, and that they are incompatible, that the phrase

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Reformed missionary would be an oxymoron, and yet we who are Reformed, who understand these things, we see them as a match made in heaven, we see them as perfectly harmonious, and even more of a bolster of a encourager into a driving force behind those who enter into the mission field, because people, brave, courageous, dedicated missionaries that venture out abroad, and even some domestic missionaries who evangelize in the 50 states, but they are certain, because of our theology, not in spite of it, they are certain that God's elect will come out from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and therefore their efforts will never be in vain, even if they personally never see fruit being born on this earth while they are personally on that mission field or while they are alive, but we believe that ultimately these promises will occur, but if you could tell us in your own words, why is

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Reformed theology and missions a perfect match? Well, I think most people recognize that one of the key things that we who believe that Reformed faith is the, you know, best human representation of Biblical Christianity, that the heart of it is

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God's sovereignty, and God has sovereignly commanded us to go into all the world and preach the gospel.

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To go! I mean, when you look at Matthew 28, most people only quote 19 and 20 for the emphasis upon the

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Great Commission, they miss verse 18 where Jesus said, all authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.

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He pronounces himself as the sovereign who says, go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, and we understand that God ordains the means as well as the end, and he has ordained the preaching of the gospel to those who perish, and yes, it's foolishness, but to those who are saved, it is the power of God and the salvation to everyone who believes, and so we understand that is what

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God, you know, requires of his church to be doing. Where to be a light set upon a hill, not a candle hidden under a basket, but where to be that light that reflects

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Jesus Christ under the nations. I mean, as well, the

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New Testament, that's a great emphasis that we saw, the calling in of the Gentiles, literally the nations, all the nations, from every kindred, from every tribe, and that's what we're doing.

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We're trying to be faithful to the Lord who has called us, and his sovereignty, and this is what people need to understand, his sovereignty is what validates, you know, his commandments, and, you know, what is accomplished.

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You know, if we're doing the will of God, you know, then we expect to see the fruit of that, and when we disobey him and not do it, we see the fruit of that as well.

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You know, you reap what you sow, it's a very clear principle. And, of course, he tells us that we're to go into all the world and sow, and, you know, that's what we're doing.

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One of our oldest logos has a picture of a sower with Westminster Biblical Missions, by the way, it's plural,

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Chris. Westminster Biblical Missions is the sower. We're going forth to sow the seed.

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By the way, just to defend myself, on your own website, it says Westminster Biblical Missions singular.

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Oh, no. Ah, those website people. I'll get at, thank you,

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I'll make that correction. Assuming that I gave the correct URL, wbminc .org,

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that's the website I'm looking at, and it's singular, right at the top. That's terrible.

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How did we miss that? Alright, I'll make note of that, brother. But as I say, you know, the

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Reformed faith is most compatible, because we believe in his sovereignty, and his sovereignty equates with authority.

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That's the way Jesus began the Great Commission. All authority is granted to him, on Heaven and Earth, and we must go, and go we will.

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You know, there was a book once, wasn't there, called The Accidental Tourist? Now, I haven't ever read that, so it may be a bad book.

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I actually saw, I believe I saw a movie version of that many years ago, but I can't remember if I enjoyed it or not, and if I enjoyed it, maybe

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I shouldn't have. That can be. You know,

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I bring that up just because I think of myself, when I was in seminary in the early 70s, that, you know, people ask me, have you ever considered being a missionary?

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Oh, no. You know, my thoughts have nothing to do with foreign missions.

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We need the Gospel right here in the United States of America. Well, God is sovereign, and he had other plans for me.

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He soon brought people into my life that changed that direction, and, you know, one thing led to another.

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I could share some of those anecdotal stories with you, if you'd like. Oh, yeah, sure.

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You know, I'd say I'm the accidental missionary. That's what I was leading up to. You know,

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I had no intent, although my wife says that when I proposed to her, we were in this kind of an argument, you know, about she had come to school to be a missionary, and I said to her,

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I said, well, look at me. I'm a full -time mission field, and sure enough, she's been with me 43 years, this accidental missionary, and encouraging me in this work.

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You know, one thing led to another, where I had met brothers from other nations, and they pressed upon me, come and help us.

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Come and help us. And I had an intimate relation with them and their families, and helping them pastorally in the church where I served first in Pennsylvania, and then in the same here in California where I now live.

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And one thing led to another, and I've been involved with foreign missions for over 30 years.

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Well, praise God for that. In fact, what we're going to do right now, because I'd rather not interrupt you mid -sentence, but we're going to go to our first break right now, and if anybody wants to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

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As always, please give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA, and please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

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Let's say we are discussing a theological issue that you agree with, but you are at odds with your own pastor, or your elders, or the dominant number of members in your own congregation.

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You're at odds with them over this, and you'd rather not draw attention to your identity, or you're a pastor, and you're at odds with your fellow co -elders, or your denomination over this issue that you are asking about.

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Or it could be a number of things that would compel you to remain anonymous, and we grant you, we will grant you that request to keep you anonymous, but we're just requesting, please, that if it's just a general theological question, or a question specifically about Westminster Biblical Mission, or the

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RCUS, the Reformed Church in the United States, a general kind of question, historically, theologically, doctrinally, then please give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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.com I was thinking in particular about how

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I got involved with Westminster Biblical Missions. There's a lesson for all of us there.

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When I first graduated from seminary, I didn't go right into the pastoral ministry.

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I wanted to get back into the life of the church. I was working in a church in Wisconsin, and every

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Wednesday evening, the pastor would read very faithfully this missionary newsletter.

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I was just impressed. I'd never heard a missionary newsletter like this that was really a theological poem, if you will.

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Much was being taught, and they were just excellent in that way. It wasn't just selling things and saying,

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You know, everything's good and wonderful. The reality is that in the mission field, church work is often very difficult.

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A lot of issues and problems and discouragements. Just read the

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New Testament. Paul's labors. They were trying to kill him. Anyhow, I did go into the pastoral ministry in 1982 with the church in Pennsylvania.

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It wasn't too far from Westminster Seminary. I heard that there were some lectures going to be given at the seminary.

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They were all open to pastors. It was on the diaconate. The teacher was

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Tim Keller. I bring this up in particular. Most people know of Tim Keller.

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You should be praying for him. He's quite ill with pancreatic cancer. I was there to hear him speak about the diaconate and how to incorporate that ministry and build it up in a local church.

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As I'm on a coffee break, I'm standing there talking to a fellow. He told me he was a missionary to South Korea.

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I go, Really? Have you ever heard of such and such missionary to Westminster Biblical Mission?

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He says, I sure have. I'm he. I'm at this coffee break.

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I tell that story because Tim recently told a story how God used a particular circumstance.

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Unbeknownst to the speaker, I think it was J .I. Packer, that God used it in Tim's life.

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That's how he and his wife ended up in Manhattan church planting. That's how I ended up in mission.

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That missionary grabbed ahold of me and said, You need to get involved. Our next meeting is such and such.

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Come. The rest is history. I thank

40:31

God for that. It's been a real blessing to be involved with the mission board. We're a small mission, but with great things to do, we serve a great

40:43

God. The intimacy of the board, knowing the faithful men, their commitment.

40:49

Our missionaries. It's not a huge organization where you hardly know one another.

40:56

The commitment to the work and the sacrifice of the individuals involved has always been an encouragement to me.

41:06

It makes me proud. It is a great privilege to serve with these men. A missionary who gives most of his inheritance to build up the work on the field.

41:16

That's just one example. A missionary working for 20 years, never taking any salary.

41:25

That's just amazing to me. To be involved with men like that is just a tremendous encouragement.

41:32

Just a shout out to Tim Keller. Thank you, brother, for having those lectures. You got me involved with Westminster Mission.

41:39

Well, that's some providence, especially since the denomination that you are in obviously would not permit

41:46

Tim to be a pastor, since he is an old earth creationist.

41:54

I would disagree. I would disagree radically with him, because he even,

42:01

I think, is on the extreme fringe of the old earth folks. But we do ask our listeners to pray for him, because he has one of the most deadly, if not the deadliest forms of cancer.

42:15

My own mother perished from pancreatic cancer in 1995.

42:20

I am so glad that she made a clear profession of the biblical gospel and her total trust in it, and her total trust in Christ alone and his finished work on Calvary in order for her to enter into heaven, which

42:40

I have absolutely no doubt that she did, having been a witness to her clear biblical proclamation of faith.

42:56

Let's hear about some of the unique mission fields that you are working with, with Westminster Biblical Mission.

43:07

I know that Pakistan is one. Tell us something about the religious climate, if you will, of Pakistan.

43:18

I know that there are obviously Muslims there in abundance, but from what

43:24

I understand, it is a country where Christianity at some level is tolerated.

43:33

Well, when Pakistan was formed in 1947, I believe, the

43:42

British government insisted that there be religious tolerance, even though Pakistan literally means the holy land.

43:53

And we're not talking about Christianity, we're talking about Islam. And that was the reason for their forming. They were a part of India, they wanted to have a

44:03

Muslim nation, and that was allowed. There was partition, and the nation was supposed to allow freedom of religion, and that's the point.

44:22

But sadly, that has been more and more encroached upon, especially when they passed, a good number of years ago now, the blasphemy law, where someone can bring a charge against another person for blasphemy against the

44:41

Prophet, against the Prophet Muhammad, of course. And that law is often used as a trumped -up charge to bring persecution and wreak havoc in Christian lives.

44:58

They're accused of attacking the

45:03

Qur 'an, sometimes if they have one and they set it down, it's just the littlest excuses.

45:11

And because so many of the people are uneducated and illiterate, which we're trying to work to help alleviate with our mission, we have 35 literacy centers, they're

45:25

Bible literacy centers, but because they're so illiterate, you know, they just get stirred up by the religious leaders, the

45:32

Mullahs, as they're called, into, oh, this person is blaspheming against the

45:39

Prophet, and they don't even know whether it's factual or whatever. And often it's been just a trumped -up charge, sometimes just because somebody wants to get into another person's property, or somehow, you know, get at them to take advantage of them, and they do it using that law.

45:59

It's just wreaked havoc and a lot of fear for the Christians. And of course, in the culture, the

46:06

Christians were allowed to work and to live, supposedly freely, but they would only get so far in the society.

46:17

They would not hold higher places in the government and offices.

46:25

You know, they were quite repressed. And now we see it really going to the extreme where, with Sharia law, there have been young Christian girls kidnapped and raped and forced to convert to Islam and Islamic marriage.

46:44

Thankfully, a real recent case was overturned by their courts. She had to be returned to her family.

46:51

It's things like that that make day -to -day living in Pakistan not easy. And, you know, mobs have burned down entire villages over just suspect that someone may have blasphemed the

47:06

Prophet. You just have to shout that out. And, you know, mobs go in and, in their frenzy, do all sorts of harm.

47:16

They burn down church buildings, homes, and it's a powder keg.

47:23

And many years since I've been going there, when I first went back in the late 80s, you know, the people were so sweet and kind and seemed really open.

47:35

You didn't sense any fear. And then returning 20 years later, you could just see the angst on people.

47:45

And they were just looking at you and, you know, sort of say giving you the evil eye and even saying things and speaking, you know, making derogatory comments.

47:56

When I might be walking beside a

48:02

Pakistani woman, you know, when we're at the school, we have a lot of lady teachers at our school.

48:10

And it's just become almost unbearable for many of the

48:17

Christian people there. Tell us something about the school. I know that somehow, even in spite of the danger that you just mentioned,

48:26

I know that the Anglican Orthodox Church denomination, which is a theologically reformed

48:34

Anglican denomination adhering to the 39 Articles, which is a very faithful, biblical, and reformed confession.

48:44

Yes, I'm familiar with them. And they have a seminary there that manages to exist.

48:50

Tell us about your school. Well, we began with theological education.

48:58

I remember a trip in 89 where we were renting a building and we only had one student and didn't know whether we'd have a student the next year.

49:09

But God and His sovereign good providence has enabled us to press on.

49:18

And through missionaries laboring in Villanova, Pennsylvania, the two original missionaries were helping a local church there.

49:28

The church failed, but the property was quite valuable in the Villanova area because of the university.

49:35

And they were able to give us a large sum of money. It was $100 ,000. We've never had money like that.

49:42

But we were able to purchase our property there, the first property. We now have four.

49:50

And at that first property, though, our sole goal and our director there was to have a theological school and training for pastors.

49:59

Critical need still is. But we were able to build the building

50:05

God's people gave. We have the seminary building. And then the director's wife had a real burden on her heart.

50:12

She saw all the children in the area. And this is an area of Lahore, Pakistan, a very large city, second only to Karachi in the south.

50:25

And she saw these children, and they were in an area known as Yohannabad.

50:31

John met Yohann, and it was a Christian colony, supposedly, because Muslims could come and live if they wanted.

50:39

But it was primarily started out as a Christian colony. And she saw these poor children, and she pleaded with her husband, oh, can we have the children over?

50:48

He goes, oh, if we do that, then they'll come in large numbers, and we won't be able to have the seminary.

50:54

It'll be a real problem. And he said no for a long time, and she prevailed upon him.

51:00

I have a picture of our first group of students. She said she wanted to have them just for a little

51:06

Bible study and maybe some cookies and milk. And I have these 12 children.

51:12

Half of them are naked, a picture of them. And from that grew Calvin Christian Academy, 1 ,400 students at the largest amount at that school, and then three more campuses now.

51:28

We're approaching, you know, 3 ,000 students. It's amazing what God's done.

51:33

Wow. In fact, we're going to pick up on a further description of Calvin Christian Academy when we return from our midway break.

51:42

And I ask of our listeners to please be patient with us, because the midway break is a bit longer than the other breaks in the show, because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1

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FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show, because they, by FCC regulations, must localize their programming to Lake City, Florida, and therefore they air their own public service announcements and other local things, and we simultaneously air our globally heard commercials.

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So please use this time wisely. Write down as much of the information as you can for as many of our advertisers as you can so that you can more frequently and successfully patronize our advertisers, because remember, folks, we need our advertisers to be happy so that they keep renewing their advertising contracts so that we can remain on the air.

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We absolutely positively depend upon our advertisers to exist because of the finances that come through their advertising.

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So please be patient during this break, and always remember that this break is containing so many ads because we need them to remain on the air.

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Even we ask of you, when you can't patronize a business by purchasing their products or using their services, or if you can't visit a specific church because it's far outside of your area where you live and you're more than happy at the congregation where you're a member, well, please at least respond to these ads by thanking the sponsors for sponsoring the show so that they at least hear from you.

53:29

But also use this time to send in a question for Dennis E. Rowe about Reformed Theology and Missions, and specifically about Westminster Biblical Missions.

53:37

And our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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As always, give us your first name, city and state of residence, and your country of residence. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dennis Rowe after these messages from our sponsor.

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that you heard about them from Chris Aronson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Before we return to Dennis E.

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Rowe in our discussion on Westminster biblical missions we just have a few announcements to make first of all, on Thursday of this week we hope you listen every single day but I'm just highlighting some interesting interviews not that all of our interviews aren't interesting but this first one that I'm mentioning involves a free giveaway of a very expensive book on Thursday we're going to be interviewing

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Scott Christensen once again and he is the author of a new book that is really addressing one of the most frequently asked questions from especially atheists and agnostics if God is such a good and wonderful and gracious and benevolent and merciful

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God why is there evil in this world? well, this book by Scott Christensen addresses that, the title of the book is

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What About Evil? A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory and this is a massive hardback and we are giving away a limited number of copies to those who send in questions to Scott and they have to be good questions good enough to be right on the air and so if you're interested in that make sure you mark your calendars for this

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Thursday and then on Friday for all of our Anglican listeners and we notice that we have a growing number of Anglican and conservative biblically sound

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Episcopalians yes they do exist we have on the show on Friday for the very first time

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Bishop Robert Bierman who is a bishop in the Anglican Reformed Church which is a scripturally sound denomination adhering to the 39 articles of religion as I mentioned even earlier today a very faithful confession drafted by the great

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English reformer Thomas Cramer and I think that I inverted some of the words in his denomination it's the

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Reformed Anglican Church maybe I got it right the first time, I don't know Bishop Bierman is a bishop in the

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Reformed Anglican Church and we have not yet decided on a specific theme but we will have that for you announced at least the day before the broadcast

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God willing and we've got a lot of other interviews so try to listen every day to Iron Sherpens Iron Radio and via live streaming globally at ironsherpensironradio .com

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also folks if you love this show and you don't want to disappear from the airwaves I am urging you

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I am desperately urging you please go to ironsherpensironradio .com

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click support then click click to donate now you can donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion and if you prefer snail mail an address will appear on the screen when you click support at ironsherpensironradio .com

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where you can mail a check made payable to Iron Sherpens Iron Radio you can also advertise with us we are in urgent need of your advertising dollars as well so as long as whatever it is you are promoting is compatible with what we believe send me an email to chrisarnsen at gmail .com

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01:18:50

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01:19:16

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01:19:22

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01:19:30

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01:19:36

God for you and I hope that you continue to find this program worthy of your finances also folks if you are not a member of a local

01:19:47

Bible believing church I have lists of biblically faithful churches all over the planet earth and I may be able to help you find a church sometimes right around the corner from where you live it's been amazing to me how

01:19:58

I have found churches for listeners in our audience in all parts of the planet earth that didn't even know that these biblically sound churches existed minutes from their home

01:20:09

I may be able to help you too so send me an email if you are in that condition of needing a good biblically faithful church no matter where you live on the globe send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:21

chrisarnson at gmail .com but I need a church in the subject line it's also the email address where you can send in a question for Dennis E.

01:20:29

Rowe the General Secretary of Westminster Biblical Missions and our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:20:36

chrisarnson at gmail .com I'll take a listener question before I have you return to your discussion on Calvin Christian Academy I believe it was called in Pakistan but we do have an anonymous listener who says you said earlier that Calvinism is compatible with mission work it's my understanding that a

01:21:03

Calvinistic Baptist group in the 18th century did not even believe in mission work and they split from other

01:21:13

Baptists over that issue because of their Calvinism I believe they are called the primitive

01:21:18

Baptists well I don't know Dennis if you know anything about the primitive Baptists I know something about them

01:21:25

I'm not an expert on them today there are thankfully some that are biblically sound but there are quite a number of them that are hyper -Calvinist and they didn't begin that way from my understanding in fact they were not opposed to missionary work they were opposed to para -church mission boards they believed that missionaries should be sent out by local churches and not by a para -church mission board but then they eventually devolved into a hyper -Calvinistic denomination but do you have anything to add about that Dennis?

01:22:03

you know I'm not an authority either I mean I've certainly I've come into contact with you know people who have been a part of the primitive

01:22:15

Baptist congregation and yeah they have come to a point where they're they don't believe in the free offer of the gospel or you're certainly not going to be mission oriented you know they're not what we would call

01:22:30

Evangelical I mean Calvinistic and Reformed churches ought to be

01:22:37

Evangelical we believe that the gospel is the power of God and the salvation to everyone who believes and that he how should they hear unless there's this preacher who would preach so they could you know by the work of the

01:22:53

Holy Spirit come to saving faith in our Lord Jesus Christ you know

01:22:59

I you know I just have to say they are sincerely mistaken and yeah

01:23:07

I can give you a list in fact I was thinking of that you mentioned earlier I do teach

01:23:13

I'm a professor of Evangelism and Missions at City Seminary in Sacramento and I teach missions there's a great website that people can go to if they want a list of missionaries and read their biographies and you'll see a preponderance of these men and women who are

01:23:34

Calvinists go to missionarybiographies .com simple as that missionarybiographies .com

01:23:45

missionarybiographiesplural .com that's correct missionarybiographies .com

01:23:53

and by the way just for go ahead I'm sorry continue we have a great list of of you know missionaries that God used names that are familiar to many of us you know like David Brainerd Missionary American Indians William Carey English Baptist Missionary to India James Chalmers I mean the list goes on and you see that most all of these people would have been in agreement on you know the heart of Reformed Theology there may have been particular differences as you have still to this day between Baptists and Methodists and Presbyterians but we hold hands together when it comes to the work of you know taking the gospel into all the world we're commanded

01:24:43

March 16, 15 going to all the world preach the gospel to every preacher and that's what an evangelical does in the true sense of the word and they're

01:24:54

Calvinists and of course there are those who are not Calvinists who carry out this great mission as well by the way

01:25:02

I just wanted to for the sake of my listeners and friends and even financial supporters of this show in the

01:25:12

Protestant Reformed denomination who may have recoiled in horror because they deny the free offer of the gospel but they think that most people define that incorrectly whether or not that's true or not

01:25:28

I can't say but I just want to say that there is a disagreement amongst faithfully reformed

01:25:36

Christians over that but I can tell you that the Protestant Reformed Church even though they say they deny the free offer of the gospel they do believe in the indiscriminate evangelism of the lost you know they will evangelize everyone from the most perverse prostitute to the most pious preacher who may have a false gospel so I just wanted to give that caveat because I know that there is a debate amongst

01:26:05

Reformed believers about that issue because of the way that phrase is defined I just wanted to throw that out there

01:26:11

No, I understand it well I was born and raised in Michigan That's right

01:26:18

Yes, the Mecca of Calvinism in the United States Jerusalem of the

01:26:23

Reformed Church Yeah, I guess that's a better way to phrase it than the Mecca Well, let's go back to Pakistan and your

01:26:33

Calvin Christian Academy in Lenore I had to interrupt you when you were in the middle of describing the growth of that academy

01:26:43

It was amazing amazing what God did there you know, it was through the heartfelt compassion of our director's wife she has since gone to be with the

01:26:54

Lord but she just saw those poor naked children and you want to talk about slums you know, we don't see slums like that in the

01:27:05

United States I mean, open sewage and filth that you can't imagine I've traveled thousands of miles in Pakistan and I don't recall ever seeing a clean body of water

01:27:20

So, short of it is her compassion was the catalyst that God put in her heart to these children and you know,

01:27:30

Calvin Christian School began to develop grades, kindergarten first and the

01:27:37

Bible study and then K -4 and 8 and now it's full of school it's the

01:27:42

British system so it's K -10 and they matriculate, you know into a college level course and then another academy in an area where they there were a number of believers another

01:27:57

Christian colony and then a third and a fourth and it's just amazing you know, step back and see what

01:28:05

God is doing but you know, in all of that it's to be faithful to the Word of God every morning about 4, 45 a .m.

01:28:15

I believe now, as Calvin Academy 1 from the loudspeakers the

01:28:20

Word of God is read every day reading through the Bible it radiates out into the community and the director says turn in page number 127 of your

01:28:34

Bibles and the children are in their homes and they open their Bibles and their parents are thrilled to see their children knowing how to read and to read the

01:28:43

Word of God and it's just, you know so overwhelming with joy to see that happening and it's not without its struggles and its imperfections but overall the work is just amazing and then it led to there was a need in the community for medical help these are the poorest of the poor as Reverend Saddam Haddad, our director, says he himself being raised out of the slum by the heartfelt burden of a

01:29:18

Presbyterian missionary lady who saw this poor child at five years old having to care for his family because his mother had died and he's not lost sight of that that he himself was lifted out of such abject poverty and so now we have these four academies and then we open medical clinics to administer to their physical needs there and we have two medical clinics with a doctor that basically volunteers we give them a small stipend but, you know, help with the work and a full -time nurse on call and medicine you know, they pay a little bit but we certainly underwrite the major part of the cost in helping them because they are in such abject poverty

01:30:14

I mean, most of the parents are gone all day leaving their children you know, to these conditions because they have to go out and just get enough food or income for the day

01:30:29

I think, you know, the average annual income of a Pakistani is only less than a thousand dollars a year so they're struggling and so our ministry there to reaching out to them and reaching out to their children was just, you know,

01:30:46

God really doing that and showing us this is what you need to do you know, raise up this new generation to follow the

01:30:56

Lord and that's what we're doing we can't allow Muslims to come to the school because that would you know, be a real problem it would, uh you'd run into that conflict you know, we are distinctly

01:31:10

Christian and we're primarily working you know,

01:31:15

Chris with what we call nominal Christians as far as outreach goes you know, it's against the law to really preach the gospel openly to Pakistan and even witnessing it is problematic we do it clandestinely, so to say but, uh we had at one time a radio and television program but they shut all that down so it's word of mouth and you have the legacy of the

01:31:45

Presbyterian missionaries they were really the pioneers in Pakistan along with the

01:31:50

Anglicans give them their due and, uh we're working with people who haven't had pastors and yet well, their father was a

01:31:58

Christian and their grandfather well, we're Christians and they even take

01:32:04

Christian names you know, we're you hear typically people from Muslim worlds called

01:32:10

Muhammad well, another name that's typical for the Christians in those Muslim worlds is take the name

01:32:17

Masih and, uh that means Messiah and they're identified with Christ yet they may not really understand the gospel so we're there ministering to them training up pastors to go to their churches starting congregations we began um you know, 40 years ago there was no denomination or anything but we began working with men um and, uh teaching them you know the reformed faith again, using the

01:32:51

Westminster Standards as our standard of doctrine and practice and telling them there's no money to be found this isn't about coming to make money it's coming for uh standing on the truth of God and His word the church is to be the pillar and ground of the truth and from that grew the

01:33:10

Lahore Council of Bible Believing Churches over 50 congregations um

01:33:16

I think something like 30 of the pastors are graduates now from our from the

01:33:22

Presbyterian Theological Seminary that we manage that's located at Calvin Christian Academy Number 1 as it's noted and uh we're doing medical missionary work we're doing education of the children

01:33:37

K -10 and um we have, as I said earlier the

01:33:42

Bible Literacy Centers we work with local pastors and there are um around 35 of them where primarily children are being taught to read but the parents come older folks they're a little embarrassed but they also eventually join in it's been a tremendous ministry we use the

01:34:05

Bible as the primer for teaching them to read it's been a very fruitful ministry of strengthening the churches and the church overall in Pakistan and uh it's a real blessing to be able to do that work that's kind of it, the nutshell for Pakistan we have other fields as well that we serve and let me take another listener question and we'll return to some of those other areas geographically where you do serve we have

01:34:36

Christopher in Western Suffolk County Long Island, New York and Christopher asks since you have representatives of your ministry in the mission field in Pakistan I was wondering if you could recommend any good books on the religion of Islam good books on the religion of Islam, yes

01:35:01

I can mention one while you're thinking one that is excellent that I've heard many rave reviews about What Every Christian Needs to Know about the

01:35:14

Quran by Dr. James R. White who is actually a very close personal friend of mine going back to 1995 and you can find out more about that book

01:35:24

What Every Christian Needs to Know about the Quran at AOMIN .org

01:35:31

that's the website of Alpha and Omega Ministries AOMIN .org and you can also go to CVBBS .com

01:35:39

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CVBBS .com who sponsors this program but any suggestions of your own?

01:35:50

Oh boy there's a number of good ones out there that are in particular

01:36:00

I can also throw out another one that would be I think helpful in a dialogue or discussion with Muslims even though this is not particularly intended specifically as a book regarding ministry to Muslims it involves a key tenet of the

01:36:23

Christian faith that Muslims believe is the worst form of blasphemy that anyone could believe or teach in fact the worst sin that anyone, according to Islam they believe that the trinity, belief in the trinity they wrongly understand it and in fact the

01:36:46

Quran misdefines it as being Mary God the

01:36:51

Father and Jesus but The Forgotten Trinity also by Dr.

01:36:59

James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries and I have the privilege of having that book dedicated to me actually by Dr.

01:37:08

White when he first came out with that book in 1998 I believe and you can also go to CVBBS .com

01:37:16

for that book Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service but if you have any other ideas you can bring that up later or you can email me and I could email them to Christopher and anybody else that has an inquiry about books for Muslims or to educate

01:37:36

Christians about Islam There's a great series that's free online if they do a search by Google by Abu Atallah A -T -A -L -L -A -H

01:37:53

A -T -A -L -L -A -H Abu Atallah and just look him up and he has he goes through the whole view of Islam about who

01:38:05

Jesus is about God what it was for him to convert to Christianity and answers for Muslims dealing with all, many of the aspects of their religion the five great pillars of Islam that they teach that you have to perform in order to be a good

01:38:27

Muslim and I'm trying to think of a fellow that was involved with R .C.

01:38:36

Sproul had him with Ligonier for a while and he died suddenly, what is his name?

01:38:46

Yeah, I think he was another one who with the pancreatic cancer took him suddenly and quickly

01:38:56

No, no, no I'm sorry and when we return we're going to hear more about different areas of the world where Westminster Biblical Missions is blessing the kingdom and we'll start with Mexico when we come back

01:39:23

Let me say that that folks if they go to the website wbminc .org

01:39:30

and they can contact me through the website as my email to contact me and I can send them material about a bibliography for Islam, of good books and quickly

01:39:44

I just wanted to add I forgot, I don't know how I could forget my very dear friend

01:39:51

Dr. Tony Costa who is the professor of Islam and Apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary if you go to his

01:39:59

Facebook page that's the best way these days to get a hold of him and what he's doing and what he the

01:40:08

YouTube lectures he gives on the subject and other places go to Facebook and look up Tony Costa, C -O -S -T -A and make sure it's the professor from Toronto Baptist Seminary Go ahead

01:40:24

I'll go ahead if you've got a break Yeah, we're going to a break right now and you can pick up where you left off there if you want to say something

01:40:30

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com If you have a question I would highly advise you send it in immediately because we're rapidly running out of time chrisarnson at gmail .com

01:40:41

Don't go away, we'll be right back with Dennis E. Royer When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the

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01:51:13

Welcome back, Dennis Rowe. Tell us about the work of Westminster Biblical Missions in Mexico.

01:51:21

The work in Mexico is among the Perepecha people.

01:51:28

Typically they're called Tarascon. It's a more modern name. Probably the

01:51:35

Spanish influence. It began in Dutch Providence when

01:51:40

I first started pastoring. I was pastoring up in northeast Pennsylvania and I published a blurb about starting a church there and anybody interested and so forth.

01:51:54

It was published in the old Presbyterian Journal. And this brother saw it and was originally from that area and from the town of Carbondale where I was starting out.

01:52:05

And it turned out that he was one of the founders of Wycliffe. Began with Cameron Townsend way back in the 40s

01:52:16

I believe and he was in the third graduating class of Westminster Seminary.

01:52:23

His name was Dr. Max Weathrop. And he lived and worked in Mexico for over 40 years.

01:52:30

Developed many of the principles for translating the Bible. In fact he translated the entire

01:52:38

New Testament into the Perepecha language. But you can find out more about that in particular on our website under Mexico.

01:52:47

Dr. Bill Higgins is Field Chairman to Mexico. He's been doing that work for over 20 years now.

01:52:55

What began with Bible studies among the Tarascans. Dr. Weathrop was not an ordained minister.

01:53:02

He didn't really organize churches. They were more like Bible study groups and so forth.

01:53:09

And I saw early on meeting with him and visiting the

01:53:15

Tarasca or the Perepecha people that there was a need for teaching them reforming church government.

01:53:24

And that, as I say, has been over 20 years of Dr. Higgins. He's really the one who's been pioneering that, taking up the work of Dr.

01:53:34

Weathrop. And they've organized the Presbytery with a number of organized churches now for the people.

01:53:43

And they're doing the work of being self -governing, self -supporting, and self -propagating.

01:53:51

They're evangelizing the villages where Dr. Latham had gone through the years.

01:53:59

And this is in central Mexico, about four hours west of Mexico City.

01:54:06

And the population is about 40 ,000 Perepecha people. And there's been just a real open door there to evangelize and to build up churches.

01:54:19

That's what we're doing. And they have a lot of good material, because in Spanish there's been a lot of sound, historic, biblical material translated.

01:54:32

And many of the works of the Reformers and so forth are available. And we're using those and distributing them among the people.

01:54:41

I should say that at the heart of Westminster Biblical Mission's evangelistic work is getting the

01:54:48

Bible into the hands of the people, wherever we are. We've given out thousands of Bibles in Pakistan.

01:54:56

My first trip into Mexico, we had filled up the back end of the pickup truck with Spanish Bibles.

01:55:03

And we went out through the countryside, distributing them and giving them to people. And we do that in our fields in Central and Eastern Europe, as well as in Nepal, where I started working in the past six years.

01:55:21

And the work in Mexico is pressing on, and we're just thankful that God is raising up a witness to Christ.

01:55:30

It can be very difficult there. It's, you know, 90 plus percent Roman Catholic, and they do persecute

01:55:38

Protestants. How do they do that specifically? Well, they actually have murdered some of the pastors.

01:55:47

Wow. They will threaten them. The priests will tell them they lose their salvation.

01:55:53

They have anything to do with those Protestants. Don't rent to them. If you do, you'll be basically booted out of the church, threatening them against commerce with them, all sorts of things.

01:56:07

It's a whole other world down there. And Rome has reared its ugly head often in Mexico, where it dominates.

01:56:19

So it's difficult for them. And it's, you know, almost like Islam, where you're converted to Christ.

01:56:26

You're kicked out by your family. And so there's no need for us to be there in helping them, just coming alongside them as brothers, encouraging them.

01:56:38

One of the things we do is we organize conferences in particular. We just finished last week, first time ever we had to do it online because of the coronavirus.

01:56:48

But we had Zoom Reformation Bible Conference for the folks in Mexico, where we've been going for 25 years holding those conferences.

01:57:03

Well, I'm going to give you now a minute to summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

01:57:12

Oh, come alongside of us. We, you know, need your help. Be co -laborers with us in mission.

01:57:19

You may not be able to go yourself, but, you know, you could pray for us. We need prayer warriors.

01:57:27

Take our newsletters, you know. Take your refrigerator magnet and put them up there and remember us in prayer.

01:57:36

We definitely need that help and assistance. Of course, we have financial needs, but most important is that God's people are interceding for us.

01:57:49

You know, we're in a new field in Nepal. We need your help there. You know, we're up against, it's, well, we're up against their demonic forces, if you will.

01:58:03

Satan is not happy about what's going on. Just in the 70s, you could barely find a

01:58:11

Christian in Nepal. And even after 20 years, you know, there were maybe 5 ,000.

01:58:18

But God has opened the door, and now there are, you know, there are hundreds of thousands of Christians.

01:58:26

And very unorganized, and they desperately need sound doctors.

01:58:31

But all of our fields do. And we emphasize sound doctor because God does.

01:58:38

You know, you read 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, that's Paul's instruction to the church.

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And Paul is the great missionary. That's what he said you build the church on. Not upon gimmicks and just trying to bring people in by external methods, but by preaching

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Jesus Christ. Preaching his cross. The death, burial, and the resurrection of Christ.

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The heart of the gospel. That sound doctor, that's what God uses. The Holy Spirit bears witness to Christ.

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That's his chief function, if you will. Jesus said that he had to come, but it wouldn't be that other witness.

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And we are now out of time, brother, and I will repeat your website. W -B -M -I -N -C, that's for Westminster Biblical Missions Inc.,

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incorporated. W -B -M -I -N -C dot org. I want to thank you so much for being such an excellent guest today,

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Dennis. I look forward to your return. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

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Savior than you are a sinner. Amen. Thank you,