December 18, 2017 Show with Vincent Sawyer on “Jesus Christ: Son of Mary, Son of God: The Humanity & Deity of the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio

platform on which pastors, Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues

facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one

man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear

from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City,.

Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at

ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this

18th day of December 2017 and I am so delighted to have

a returning guest on today that I have not had on my program in quite some time.

He's a dear friend, a dear brother in Christ who I have known going all the way back to the

early 1990s, Pastor Vincent Sawyer, former pastor of

Faith Baptist Church of Corona, Queens, New York, but now currently the pastor of

Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida and founder of Macedonian Call

Ministries.

Today, Pastor Vinny and I are going to be discussing Jesus Christ, Son of Mary, Son of

God, the humanity and deity of the second person of the triune Godhead and it's my honor

and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence, my dear.

Friend Pastor Vinny Sawyer.

Thank you so much,

Chris.

Well, the pleasure is

all mine, brother,.

And I have so many fond memories of you after knowing you for over

two decades, perhaps close to 28 years now and

that's a long time.

That's pretty amazing.

Well, it has been a blessing to see how many pastors have been coming out to

my bi -annual pastor's luncheons out here.

I hope at some point in the future your trips to Hanover, Pennsylvania

coincide with my pastor's luncheon because I would love for you to be there.

And that actually brings me to my first question.

Tell us about Macedonian Call Ministries because.

I know it's affiliated with a ministry in Hanover, Pennsylvania.

India, the

countries of the

need to train

past New

York and different

places

around the

world to

train pastors through Macedonian Call Ministries.

Well, we'll be giving more information about how to get in contact.

With Macedonian Call Ministries later on in the program and also let our listeners know about the new church you

are pastoring there in Port Charlotte for Victory Baptist Church.

I love.

Name by the way.

Yes, and

you know the Bible says

thanks be to God who

gives us him over.

We helped

start

Calvary Baptist

Trivania.

Wow, wow.

And so I'm married for

tremendous

blessed

oral

ministry.

Well,

praise

God for that.

I'm excited about that and I'm so glad to know.

That there is another solid biblical church down there in Florida that I can

come and visit when I by God's providence are making a trip down there for some reason or another

whether it be for a Bible conference and or just visiting friends.

And I know that you are about three hours from Orlando.

Tell our listeners more about your geographic location because of the fact that we do have listeners

in Florida and we may have some listeners that are close enough to you that they may want to visit and who knows

they might even want to join that congregation if they are either without a church home or they are

discovering that the church where they are.

A member is not really solidly biblical.

We'd love to

have

people

visit us

and if you'd like to

untext or can grab.

Amen.

And that is also an excellent method.

It's not foolproof because.

If anybody's determined to do something they will do it anyway but it is a helpful

guardrail to.

Prevent hobby -horsing.

Well that is true.

We'll often see a unit

of thought

through

a paragraph

of

scripture

and it

feeds the

flock of God.

Now tell us about what an equipping hour is.

I heard you mention that as a part of your services.

Many years ago in Queens we started a Bible Institute which

met on...

Do you have

any

time

blocked off on your calendar when you no longer will be conducting

those because

you believe

the return of Christ

will happen?

Well you know, we'll teach...

When are you going to start teaching the important things?

For people to

grow.

I'm going to give our

email address if

anybody

would like

to join

us on the.

Air with a question for Pastor Vinnie.

We will allow you to ask nearly any theological question but we are primarily hoping to get

questions regarding the hypostatic union, both the humanity and

deity of Jesus Christ, especially since we have the Christmas season that we have now

entered into.

In fact Christmas is next week.

That is just amazing to me.

Yes it is.

Next week at this time.

Next Monday.

That's right.

But our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

And you know, this is very brief.

I don't want you to be...

I don't want to belabor this issue because I don't want to sidetrack what we are primarily here to talk about.

But I've been noticing on the internet and it's been happening pretty much every year that I've been on the internet.

I'm a fairly late comer to the internet.

I guess the mid -90s is when I started dabbling on the internet.

But I'm still really horrible technologically.

I'm really a really horrible person when it comes to the internet.

But there are people out there, and I'm not talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or members of cults,

but I'm talking about people that are primarily either coming from a

theologically reformed background or even a fundamentalist background who don't think that we should be

celebrating Christmas because of the pagan origins of Christmas.

And I personally do not have a problem with Christians

Christianizing a day that used to be a pagan day as long as we are not incorporating

anything idolatrous or anti -biblical or heretical or blasphemous into that day.

I don't know what your thoughts are on.

It, but why don't you let us know?

...local mandate to celebrate Christmas,

Good Friday for that matter.

However,

not

realizing Christ

became incarnate,

why he

came into the

world.

And that's

the

greatest gift in Corinthians 8 and verse 9.

Just wonderful that God loves us so much.

He says, Therefore you know the grace of our Lord.

He was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty

might become rich.

Speaking of spirit and really

in Christ and because of his love for us, because of God giving his

unspeakable, you and I

have a conviction up as an

opportunity to share the true message of the good

news, the gospel.

This is Paul on the Apostle Paul on Mars.

Hill when he was referring to the altar to the unknown God.

He didn't just totally trash that.

Concept.

He used that to bring them to a knowledge of Christ.

Exactly, and he even quoted some in that,

again it shows us an image of those

opportunities.

Amen.

And I think that we

who

celebrate

Christmas.

Have to be very cautious about how harshly we disagree with those who have

a conviction of not celebrating it because of even the Roman Catholic connection to it and

the pagan origin of the day.

I think that brethren in Christ have a liberty either to ignore

the celebrating of this day or to join in on it.

I think that to go either way in condemnation can be unchrist -like

according to the spirit, the Irenic spirit that we are called to have with brethren about

secondary.

And tertiary

issues.

Well I agree Chris.

I think I like the

maximum essentials.

Well I think.

What.

We should do is address our subject in the reverse that I

have promoted.

I have the theme as son of Mary, son of God, the humanity and deity of the second person of the

triune godhood and perhaps we should just address them differently.

Well starting with the son of God aspect of Jesus and his deity because

in our day and age you have not only cults but

but liberals.

Liberals who have conquered the denominations where they now serve in leadership

that were started by bible -believing Christians going across the

spectrum from Arminianism to Calvinism.

Many of these denominations such as the Methodist church and the Presbyterian

church and other denominations, Lutheran churches and so on,

began as believers in the inerrancy of scripture and having the deity of Christ as a

major and vital pillar and of course there are

denominations within those groups that I just mentioned.

There are bible -believing truly solid evangelical Methodists

and Presbyterians and Lutherans and so on but the larger

denominations within those groups at least here in the United States have really caved in

and have been conquered by apostasy.

So you're going to have people who are going to be challenged by friends

family and neighbors or perhaps even strangers knocking at their doors that would be primarily of course Jehovah's Witnesses

and in different parts of the country Mormons who are going to try to win people over

to their way of thinking.

The Mormons have a lot more of an ecumenical approach these days.

They are a lot different than they used to be.

They have a facade of claiming that they are just another branch of Christianity

which a Jehovah's Witness would never say at least currently would never say.

But let's start with the deity of Jesus Christ and of course I know

that you would agree with me that Jesus Christ is not a man who

became a God.

Jesus Christ existed in eternity past.

There was never a point where Jesus Christ came into existence as God.

He was always the second person of the Trinity even though there was a point in time

where he became a human being.

That's right and I think the divine nature of Christ because he

being the son of

the

Holy

Spirit touching

us.

We recognize that the word Trinity is nowhere found in the Bible.

For people to understand how God

can be

three and yet

one.

Three notes on the

piano at

once.

They move

the egg with the yolk the white and the

shell of a three -leaf clover

and that we

can use.

Fun.

Yeah they're more prone to lead people into error like.

Modalism or

tritheism.

We hand and

the word

God

is Elohim and

anyone who knows Hebrew knows that the Hebrew word

indicates

plurality.

So

even

in the

name

God

for who's

one

two

of

Isaiah from

the time that it was there am I

and now the

Lord 61 one.

And there

are many such as

the baptismal formula

everybody is aware

of Paul's

benediction and

and making

such

statements

like this

if Jesus

was.

Well we're

going to

go to our first break right now if anybody would like to join us on.

The air with a question of your own.

Our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com c h r i s a r n z e n at

gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA.

And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away.

God willing we'll be right back with Pastor Vincent Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte Florida

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Hi i'm pastor bill shishko.

Inviting you to tune into a visit to the pastor's study.

Every saturday from 12 noon to 1 p .m eastern time on wlie radio

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Join us this saturday at 12 noon eastern time for a visit to the pastor's study.

Because everyone needs a pastor welcome back.

This is chris arns and if you.

Just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours is pastor vinnie sawyer of victory baptist

church of port charlotte florida and founder of macedonian coal ministries.

We are discussing jesus christ son of mary son of god.

And the first hour we are going to be dedicating to the deity of christ and we will

get to as much of the information from the scriptures on the humanity of christ during the second hour.

If you'd like to join us on the air our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arnson at gmail .com.

And some of you have already sent in questions about the humanity of christ but we'll wait to

address your questions for the second hour.

I don't know if you wanted to finish a thread of thought that you had there pastor vinnie.

But uh one thing that you will commonly hear especially from

uh liberal individuals and i'm not even uh saying that they have some kind of an

extreme leftist agenda but your your average person who is not really

regenerate uh who thinks that the bible has some wonderful heart

uh moving stories.

And and they love to hear about the baby jesus every christmas because he is harmless

uh lying there in a manger as an infant.

And you know there are there are many things that uh even the secular world even those of other religions

uh appreciate about the bible stories.

But uh these people will come to us and they will say why are you so

adamantly opposed to those who do not believe that jesus is god.

Uh i mean the muslims love jesus.

In fact the muslims say that he's the messiah that he is returning uh and uh

you have the mormons who named their religion after jesus christ the church of jesus christ of

latter -day saints.

And you have other religions that love jesus but they do not believe in his

deity as you do.

And uh whenever i hear of somebody saying that uh there are other religions who love jesus.

Uh even uh many from the jewish community will have kind things to say about jesus.

And i will say to them what jesus are they referring to.

Are they referring to the jesus of the inerrant scriptures.

Or are they discussing and praising a jesus of their own imagination.

And if you could pick up from there so paul made mention

of the fact that there were others who preached another jesus.

So there is uh

people make up that is not done

their own imagination.

Or he said unless you believe

you will die in your sin.

That people understand that jesus is

the i who became incarnate.

And uh you

know what.

And god committed.

And um moses started.

The excuses is well who will i say sent me.

And god speaks to him out of jehovah.

God speaks to him out of that burning bush.

And he says you tell him i am sent you.

He said that is my name.

Your name yahweh.

You come to your

new test.

Dramatically correct way of saying that if he was only describing pre

-existence would be to say before abraham was i was.

This uses uh ego amy.

Before abraham was i.

Show that he 314.

But then i think the john 18.

And when they come and then he

said as soon as he said unto them i

he did not

say i was in

john 18.

They went back.

And all he does

they get

bloody

the great i.

Yeah that still to this day baffles me.

Why.

Mel gibson who was at the time a sata.

Vacantist traditionalist roman catholic.

Why he removed that scene from the arrest of jesus.

Because even for even if you wanted to say he was a secular filmmaker.

Uh what an interesting and and phenomenal and amazing scene

that that actually occurred from the biblical account and we believe also was a historic event

to remove.

That is insane unless you have a liberal agenda or something and at the time mel gibson had no such agenda

so it was bizarre that he did that.

Yeah

i i

am for

many.

Okay we

have a listener

in slovenia

joe who says dear brothers chris and.

Vinnie i heard the following objection to the trinity.

The concept of the trinity is based on the conclusions set forth by the nicene creed and the

athanasian creed.

Neither of these creeds was written by prophets or apostles.

Their writers did not even claim to be prophets or apostles to have received any special revelation

on the matter.

Therefore they had no real authority to say what scripture really means.

They were just engaging in conjecture.

If these creeds are simply repeating the plainly event words of the apostles

such as that their conclusions are not even debatable.

Why are they needed.

If it is all immensely obvious in the bible then i only need the bible making these creeds redundant.

If it is not immensely obvious what makes their conjecture more legitimate than anyone else's.

How would you answer such an objection.

Well it's interesting before you give your own thoughts on it.

Uh we don't need the nicene creed or the athanasian creed.

But right.

But every church worth its salt for instance will have some kind of an

outline that summarizes the core beliefs that they believe are necessary for

a christian to believe that are in the scripture just because they're already in the scripture.

To repeat them in either a church constitution a creed or a confession

is not a nonsensical or a waste of time because there are so many enemies of christ uh

objecting to things that are clear in the bible.

It doesn't matter how clear things are in the bible the enemies of christ will come up with ways to either twist the scriptures or

to deny the scriptures to oppose core doctrine.

Uh so uh the nicene creed wasn't the first place uh that the uh

disciples were taught about the trinity we have it in the pages of the god -breathed word.

But if you could give your own comment on that.

Sure other

church

history

however

others

and

check it out

with it.

And joe

in

slovenia also

says would macedonian call be willing to come to train pastors in slovenia.

Oh absolutely.

To get in contact with me.

He can go to

our website.

And uh he can.

And i've already forwarded his email to you so you could actually respond

to him if you'd like to.

Very good have him ask that good question.

Thank you so much joe.

In slovenia.

So uh going back to the main objection.

Uh the really the the objection is that the first time we ever hear of the

concept of the trinity is in these creeds.

But that's not true.

Just because the word trinity as you said is not in the bible does not mean.

That christians did not believe in the trinity.

Right.

And actually uh as you study the new testament

and i

and i'm

about to

give you

scriptures about

justify

quoting

isaiah

emmanuel is

a word uh that that indicates the deity of

christ.

He says in verse

14 said this he that overcome it shall

inherit

all things.

And so if you studied the

god said unless

i see

him i will

not

believe this

said because you have seen me you

have believed.

He didn't really understand

nuked

him for taking the name of god.

He doesn't correct

him.

And uh

it's one

time and he said

well what he meant was we are one of

the jews.

Where they would then pick up stones in verse

33 throw at him.

Right.

They did not believe.

He was merely saying we are one in purpose for they themselves

thought claiming to

be

one

in

essence.

Which

says

that he

speaking of

his

son

he

dar

and

ever

several

reform of god

115 he is called.

And then

titus

213 paul writes that we are looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearance.

Scriptures refer to jesus

directly but there are many more proofs of his divine nature

such as his titles.

He's called.

No.

Yeah a lot of the

enemies of uh the.

True faith and the opponents of the deity of christ will actually use that as a proof of

their.

Side

in their

minds.

Right right

right.

And one

greek

word monogamy which uh

literally means one of a kind or unique

just a

uniqueness.

And uh that

phrase only

begun it has a

you ever have

and he

is he identifies

with humanity.

In fact that's

very about

the new

testament.

Venice stop right there because we have to get to our midway break so remember that.

Remember that you picked up.

Remember to pick up where jesus is called lord.

Excellent.

Uh and if anybody else would like to join us on the air and there are some of you waiting.

If you want to get in line behind those who are already waiting to have a question asked and

answered our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with pastor vinnie sawyer and more on our discussion of the deity and

humanity of jesus

christ.

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A couple of more things that we have to go to before we return to pastor vinnie sawyer.

The g3 conference is returning to atlanta georgia the 17th through the 20th

on the theme knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship.

Beginning on the 17th there is a spanish speaking edition of the conference all day long

until 7 p .m and then at 7 p .m is where they switch over to english

and our friend dr james r white of alpha omega ministries will be debating a muslim apologist.

Then on the 18th the actual conference in english begins

lasting through the 20th on the theme knowing god a biblical understanding of discipleship featuring

stephen lawson vody baucom phil johnson keith getty hb charles jr tim challis josh bice

james white tom askell anthony metheny and michael kruger david miller paul trip todd friel derrick thomas

martha peace justin peters and stephen nichols.

If you would like to register for that conference go to g3 conference dot com g3 conference dot com.

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I will be there god willing with an iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth.

As i was last january i look forward to meeting many of you again and also look forward to

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Well we are now back with our guest pastor vincent sawyer of victory baptist church of

port charlotte florida.

He's the founder of macedonian coal ministries and we are discussing jesus christ son of mary son of god

the humanity and deity of the second person of the triune godhood.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own our email address is chris arnson at gmail .com.

Chris arn zen at gmail .com please give us your first name city and state and country of

residence.

If you live outside the usa and pastor vinny before we went to the break you were just beginning to

enter into uh the fact that jesus christ is lord which you were

equating with him being clearly identified.

As deity from the pages of scripture picture

actually uses the term in the new testament.

Query off that

quote.

Bird yahweh on

the name of the lord

shall be said in the word word yahweh

or jehovah depending on how you pronounce it.

Then you come to a scripture like romans 10 13 where in

the context.

And if you

will confess with your mouth the lord jesus.

And then he says in verse 13 for whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be saved.

And so very clearly he is tying together bird

yahweh or jehovah.

And in the new testament translating it lord identifying jesus as jehovah

god.

And this comes up over and just

eludes.

See the word on

that study

matter of fact.

That's a a book that i am working on right now.

I am so burdened for this uh to show jesus.

And uh you can go to the hebrew scripture and there are many

references to jesus that are quoted in the new

testament.

Well in the old testament jesus uh

he is called he

is called the first and the

last.

If you go to isaiah 44 6 and the last uh he

is called dean and a multitude.

And yet if you

study isaiah 43 11 it says

i jehovah and jesus

he had the

right and

forgiving him.

He raises

that he

preserves

it

and he's

the

judge.

Amen.

In

fact um

if uh

you're

listening

and

you.

Have ability to grab a pen and paper uh james white of alpha and omega ministries who

as you know vinny has been a dear friend of mine since 1995.

I have orchestrated many debates and speaking engagements with dr white.

And many years ago he really gave an extremely helpful tool.

Biblically when you are approached by jehovah's witnesses who are trying to strip

jesus of his deity.

This is a pairing of old and new uh testament scriptures that actually

evoked from a jehovah's witness woman an elderly woman a slap across

james white's face when she had no answer to him she slapped him.

But but uh if you if you want to write this down the pairing there's two pairs of

scriptures that you might want to remember or you should remember to bring up jehovah's witnesses.

Those of you listening psalm 102 25 through 27 and hebrews

1 1 through 12 and then john 12 30 through 41 and

isaiah 6 1 through 10.

And i'll repeat that one more time john 102 25 through 27 and hebrews 1 1 through

12.

That's the first pair john 12 30 to 41 and isaiah 6 1 through 10.

And if you don't mind vinny i'm just going to read those passages starting in psalm

102 25 through 27 of old you founded the earth

and the heavens are the work of your hands even they will perish but you endure.

And all of them will wear out like a garment like clothing.

You will change them and they will be changed.

But you are the same and your years will not come to an end.

And you if you say to a jehovah's new witness even from their new trend new world translation who is that

talking about.

And they will say immediately oh that's jehovah.

Well that's when you go to hebrews 12 i'm sorry hebrews 1 1 through 12 1 through 12.

And there we read in hebrews god after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the

prophets in many portions and in many ways in these last days has spoken to

us in his son whom he appointed heir of all things through whom

also he made the world.

And he is the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature and upholds all

things by the word of his power.

When he made purification of sins he sat down at the right hand of the

majesty on high having become as much better than the angels as he has

inherited a more excellent name than they for to which the angels did ever say

you are my son today i have begotten you.

And again i will be a father to i will be a father to him

and he shall be a son to me.

And when he began and when he again brings the firstborn

into the world he says and let all the angels of god worship him.

And the angel and the angels he says who makes his angels

who makes his angels winds and his ministers a flame of fire.

But of the sun he says your throne oh god is forever and ever.

And the righteousness the righteous scepter of the scepter of his kingdom you have

loved righteousness and hated lawlessness.

Therefore god your god has anointed you with the oil of gladness above

your commands and above your command companions i'm sorry.

And then you lord in the beginning what you lord in the beginning laid the

foundation of the earth and the heavens are the works of your hands.

They will perish but you remain.

And they will become old like a garment and like a mantle you will

roll them up like a garment they will also be changed.

But you are the same and your years will not come to an end.

And they that there is obviously referring to jesus christ.

So after the jehovah's witness is already recognized that jehovah was being spoken of in the old

testament with those same words that i concluded with they have to come to grips with the fact

that jesus christ the son is being referred to in the new covenant.

And then we go to the gospel of john verse 12

30 through 41 jesus answered and said

this voice has not come for my sake but for your sakes.

Now judgment is upon this world.

Now the ruler of this world will be cast out and i if i am lifted up from the

earth will draw all men to myself.

But he was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which he was to die.

The crowd then answered him we have heard out of the law that the christ is

to remain forever.

And how can you say the son of man must be lifted up.

Who is this son of man.

So jesus said to them for a little while longer the light is among you walk while you have the

light so that darkness will not overtake.

He who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.

While you have the light believe in the light so that you may become sons of light.

These things jesus spoke and he went away and hid himself from them but through.

But though he had performed so many signs before them yet they were not believing in

him.

This was to fulfill the word of isaiah the prophet which he spoke lord who has

believed our report and to whom has the arm of the lord been revealed.

For this reason they could not believe.

For as isaiah said again he has blinded their eyes and hardened their

heart so that they would not see with eyes and receive with their

heart and he and be converted as i heal them.

These things isaiah said because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

And then we go to isaiah chapter 6 1 through 10.

In the year of king uziah's death i saw the lord sitting on a throne lofty and exalted

with a train of his robe filling the temple.

Seraphim stood above him each having six wings.

With two he covered his face and with two he covered his feet and with two he flew.

And one called out to the another and said holy holy holy is the lord of hosts.

The whole earth is full of his glory and the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of

him who called out while the temple was filling with smoke.

Then then i said woe is me for i am ruined because i am a man of unclean lips

and i live among a people of unclean lips.

For my eyes have been my eyes have seen the king the lord of hosts.

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand

which he had taken from the altar with tongs.

He touched my mouth with it and said behold this has touched your lips with your and your

iniquity is taken away and your sin is forgiven.

Then i heard the voice of the lord saying whom shall i send and who will go for us.

Then i said here i am.

Send me.

And he said go and tell his people.

Keep on listening but do not perceive.

Keep on looking but do not understand.

Render the hearts of this people insensitive.

Their ears dull and their their eyes dim.

Otherwise they might see with their eyes hear with their ears understand with their hearts and

return and be healed.

That very reference that jehovah's witnesses will claim as jehovah right there in the old covenant.

Uh was already as we read uh previously just moments ago.

The very reference to jesus christ.

Amen.

And uh the

ones that you

mentioned are

acts of christ

that

they can

look up some of these parallel during

the jehovah god and then new testament.

Also i'll send you outline on

the uh the

triune.

Godhead what is your

email address so our listeners can have that.

Oh they could send the email to by.

Er great.

We're going

to go to our final break right now.

And when.

We return we will continue and this time uh switch over to the humanity of

jesus.

Uh because uh it's interesting to know uh and i'm sure you probably know this as well pastor vinny that

uh one of the first heresies in the that was the church was confronted with was those who

denied the humanity.

Of jesus right.

And uh chris after the break i could or now i could mention why i think that was.

So all right.

Well if you want to quickly mention it because we are going to a break it's up to you.

Oh i'll wait till after the break.

Okay we're going to go to our final break right now.

And you have a question please email it to us now.

And we do have some of you already waiting.

Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away we'll be right back with pastor vinny sawyer god willing.

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Welcome back.

This is chris arnzen and we are returning to our final 25 minutes of the program.

With pastor vincent sawyer of victory baptist church of port charlotte florida and

founder of macedonian coal ministries we have been discussing jesus christ son of mary son of god

the humanity and deity of the second person of the triune godhead and we are now currently

addressing the humanity of jesus.

If you'd like to join us on the air before we run out of time now is the time to do it.

Or forever hold your peace.

Uh send it to.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com.

And of course that's a joke.

You don't have to hold your peace.

You could actually email vinny with your questions after the show's over if you want to but we would hope that some of

you would join us.

Uh as long as time will permit while we are on the air live.

And uh pastor vinny you were about to tell us why it is that one of the first heresies that

raised its ugly head in the church two thousand years ago was a denial of the

humanity.

Of christ right.

It was actually the humanity and this heresy was actually

because john writes and for

no ye the spirit and every

spirit has come in

the flesh.

That's not and

an anti

-christ

and so the the anti -christ of his

day were actually saying that

christ or

most like to use messiah

has

come in

the flesh and claim

i am

because it'll

pave the

way

for

some seeking for the

coming of the

mavi.

Here he is.

And uh we

have a listener

in ada

ohio

david

who says concerning.

The humanity of jesus.

Do you have any information about if jesus was conceived using

mary's egg and what are the implications for and or

against each method of his birth i .e for using her egg and against using

any part of sinful humanity for his birth.

Just wondering.

Thank you.

Uh i guess uh that might involve more detail than the scriptures give us

because we know that he was certainly conceived in mary's womb but i don't know does that

require we believe that an actual egg of.

Mary

was used.

Well

the

scripture

does

teach

that all

the way back

would have a

fizzer

womb and i think the miracle of miracle

to do that chris in

order to die for men for the scripture says

that in

blood.

Uh yes uh.

And in fact

i know this

is going to

upset

some of my if

not all

of.

My roman catholic listeners.

But don't you agree that even though roman catholicism has shared with us the view

that jesus is fully man and fully god they believe in the hypostatic union.

Uh they believe that is a vital element of their theology and dogma.

But some of the details that they add to the story that are not biblical

in my opinion.

And in the opinion of others uh that are protestant or bible believing christians we believe that

some of the things that they they teach in the church of rome diminish the humanity of jesus.

And one of them would be the diminishment of the humiliation of his

coming into this world.

They will first of all the very fact that they believe that mary had to be sinless to carry henry.

And also i'm sorry if this uh is too uh vulgar for some of you to

hear but they actually believe that mary never lost her hymen when delivering jesus that

her hymen remained intact and she ever and forever remained a virgin.

These kinds of things i think take away from the humanity of jesus.

And what do you.

What are you.

What is your response to that pastor benny.

Well i i would agree that it is

through

the incarnation of christ by assuming

that

just that.

Therefore

mary

must have without

very clear that she had other children and so she the

human logic.

In fact we

should make

one clarification

though.

The roman catholic church does not teach that mary was virgin born that she was born sinless

and conceived sinless.

They don't believe.

They don't believe her mother was a virgin.

Right and conceived and conceived without sin

as well.

Yes yes well

he belongs to jesus.

In fact it.

Fathered the child right.

In fact it is bizarre that roman catholics claim that a sinless

savior would require a sinless mother.

When they don't believe that mary's mother was sinless they.

Contradict themselves with this whole thing.

Well that is true if you're going to proceed with

that

kind of

land.

Uh we

know there's women in

jeremiah 718 and

jeremiah

44.

By the way

i just.

Wanted to quick say that one of our listeners in new york is someone who we both know and love.

Pastor josh fryman of community baptist church of riverhead long island just said he is loving

listening to the program.

I'm going to give him a plug for community baptist church of riverhead.

The website is community baptist church .net community baptist church .net for any of you listening who

live in the riverhead area or plan to visit there.

And we also have a listener in greensboro north carolina who has no question but sterling in

greensboro just wants to let us know.

That he's loving every minute of the show.

Wonderful our dear friend

josh fryman listening in long island.

If you want a good church and you live in the riverhead area i highly recommend uh community.

Baptist that's where i was going to become a member before i uh knew that

god had other plans and wanted me to move to pennsylvania through his providence.

But i i had every intention on joining the community baptist church in riverhead because i was planning to move there

uh after my wife uh went home to be with the lord.

It was too depressing to live in the area that i was living and so uh

i was had every intention uh to join the community baptist church but much to

their uh joy.

I did not.

But i want to make.

I want to make sure that you get as much information though as possible uh said over the airwaves about the

humanity of jesus and then the necessity of that because this is no less important than his deity

when it comes to the redemption of the lost.

Well that is correct.

Because jesus according to scripture had to become human in order to

die as our son that he took

part of that human flesh and blood so that he by the grace of god

might taste death for every man.

And so he had to be an

addict god in order

god to die for

men he would have to become man

otherwise his sacrifice would not have equaled the payment which men were required to pay.

But if you were to read hebrew clearly

teacher and the need for him to become a human

and you know when you think about the

mediator between god and men in first timothy 2 5 uh job looked

for a daisman or arbitrator who understands both god and man and can bring them

together in harmony in job 9 32 and 33.

And then hebrews is to be our great high

priest in heaven

he had to

bear the natures

that he can be our

advocate

to become

king jesus

and fulfill

the

and

that

that

sin.

Now one

thing

that

may.

Surprise a lot of our listeners.

Well i actually i don't know if i have a lot of listeners who would be fans of the word of faith movement

and the heresies of many of the charismatic televangelists.

But it might surprise a lot of people nonetheless.

Even those that don't follow those those heretical individuals that many if not

most in the word of faith pentecostal movement believe that when jesus

performed miracles on this earth and even when he died on calvary he did so

devoid of deity he was doing those things purely as a man not as god.

And that he actually and this is where it really gets blasphemous they believe that jesus

became a demonic entity on calvary and became the first born

again man in hell as if jesus needed to be born again.

I mean it's astonishing.

People made this.

May all this stuff may fly by or fly over the heads of many people who think that these

uh representatives or professedly uh those who are professedly

representatives of christ church they may be shocked to know those.

Facts.

But those are indeed the facts right.

And and you know chris it's it is utter heresy when people start adding

concept because none of those things that you mentioned can be

supported from scripture.

When jesus himself of his divine nature he

was still he was god in human form.

And uh scripture

yes in fact

in of god with god

but he would make himself of no reputation or literally empty himself

of a servant.

And we get the doctrine of the kenosis uh

from that.

And they did

not empty independent display of some of

his divine attributes.

By becoming incarnate by becoming a

human to rest

he would

become.

That's the most that's the most puzzling part for us to comprehend is that even he did

not know uh when the son of man would return

to form

missions

he

did his holiness

hanging

next to him.

False

agents.

I commend my spirit.

And

that's

how we understand that word

and i'm sure in the context of christ and i'm sure you would agree that.

Although the humanity of jesus is a pillar and vital and necessary

doctrine it is a dangerous thing to attribute that same teaching to the

father as the mormons do as the word of faith.

Pentecostals uh attribute to the father a physical body of flesh and

bone and blood that is heretical.

To go to that extreme to blur the distinction between father and son it

will.

It is

between the father and the son and i know that

that can

share with

men.

And and god became man

so that he might.

And a couple

of ideals.

God became man so that he might give man a

visible

incarnate but

he had to be born at an appointed

time of

the

world

and fulfill a multitude.

Rejected.

And then

he had to

be raised from the dirt

amen as he says yes.

And one more

cult to throw

into the mix.

Uh the oneness.

Pentecostals are seriously heretical when they say that jesus christ the son of god did

not come into existence until the incarnation.

We believe that that the second person of the trinity the son of god coexisted with the father and

spirit from all eternity past.

And will ever be together with the father and the son who says his

goings forth.

We are out of time.

And i know that your website is salvationvictory .com salvationvictory .com

and i know that if anybody wants to find out more about macedonian call they can go

to salvationvictory .com click on our ministries and then click on missions

and you will have all the information that you need about the macedonian call ministry.

Pastor vinnie it has been a joy to have you on the program.

I look forward to your return very soon.

Uh and often and it's been far too long we can't.

Wait years before you return to the program.

Well thank you so much chris for the opportunity.

I consider it a privilege and

i

also

want a

listener to

this

broadcast.

You have also a divine obligation to share

a blessing.

Thank you so much brother and i want to thank everybody who listened especially.

Those who wrote in questions.

And i want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that jesus christ is a far greater savior

than you are a sinner.