December 18, 2017 Show with Vincent Sawyer on “Jesus Christ: Son of Mary, Son of God: The Humanity & Deity of the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Monday on this 18th day of December 2017, and I am so delighted to have a returning guest on today that I have not had on my program in quite some time.

He's a dear friend, a dear brother in Christ, who I have known going all the way back to the early 1990s,

Pastor Vincent Sawyer, former pastor of Faith Baptist Church of Corona, Queens, New York, but now currently the pastor of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida, and founder of Macedonian Call Ministries.

Today, Pastor Vinny and I are going to be discussing Jesus Christ, Son of Mary, Son of God, the humanity and deity of the second person of the triune

Godhead. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back after a long absence, my dear friend,

Pastor Vinny Sawyer. Thank you so much, Chris. I've so much appreciated you over the years and your strong stand on the

Word of God, your soundness of mind when it comes to doctrine, and really appreciate you,

Chris, and I'm delighted to be with you today. Well, the pleasure is all mine, brother, and I have so many fond memories of you after knowing you for over two decades, perhaps close to 28 years now, and that's a long time.

That's pretty amazing. Well, that's right. I'm sure New York misses you dearly, but I'm sure

Pennsylvania is blessed to have you there. Well, it has been a blessing to see how many pastors have been coming out to my biannual pastor's luncheons out here.

I hope at some point in the future your trips to Hanover, Pennsylvania coincide with my pastor's luncheon, because I would love for you to be there.

And that actually brings me to my first question.

Tell us about Macedonian Call Ministries, because I know it's affiliated with a ministry in Hanover, Pennsylvania.

Sure. Many years ago, I had an opportunity to take a trip to India, which really opened my eyes to the needs on the foreign field, particularly third -world countries, of the need to train pastors.

And God has opened up opportunities. Even when I was a pastor for 26 years in Queens, New York, there at Faith Baptist in Corona, I was able to take several foreign trips.

And over the years, God was burdening my heart for this great need.

It reminds me of Acts 16 and verse 9, where the Bible says, come over into Macedonia and help us.

And I sensed there was just a great need. And so God has opened opportunities for me to go to countries like China and India and South America, Africa, the

Philippines, and different places around the world to train pastors through Macedonian Call Ministries.

Well, we'll be giving more information about how to get in contact with Macedonian Call Ministries later on in the program.

And also, I'll let our listeners know about the new church you are pastoring there in Port Charlotte, Florida, Victory Baptist Church.

I love the name, by the way. Yes. And you know, the Bible says, thanks be to God who gives us the victory through our

Lord Jesus Christ, 1 Corinthians 15, verse 57. Well, it was about a year and a half, going on two years now, that I met a pastor in Port Charlotte.

He was the founder of Victory Baptist Church, and he actually was 89 years old and still pastoring.

Wow. And I met him over, I went there to speak, he asked me to come and speak on Christmas Day.

And it was just wonderful meeting him. And I came to find out that he helped start

Calvary Baptist Church in Lansdale, Pennsylvania, the very church that started the seminary that I graduated from.

Wow. Wow. And so it is a small world. And so Pastor Dietrich is a wonderful man.

He's now 90. He's been married for 70 years. He and his wife just celebrated their 70th wedding anniversary.

And it is a tremendous blessing to be pastoring. You know, it's hard to train pastors and not pastor if God has called you into the pastoral ministry.

And so I'm doing both. I'm traveling internationally, and I've had to cut back on that due to taking this pastoral ministry.

But I'm just delighted at the opportunity to shepherd these folks in Southwest Florida.

Well, praise God for that. I'm excited about that. And I'm so glad to know that there is another solid biblical church down there in Florida that I can come and visit when

I, by God's providence, are making a trip down there for some reason or another, whether it be for a

Bible conference or just visiting friends. And I know that you are about three hours from Orlando.

Tell our listeners more about your geographic location because of the fact that we do have listeners in Florida, and we may have some listeners that are close enough to you that they may want to visit.

And who knows, they might even want to join that congregation if they are either without a church home or they are discovering the church where they are a member is not really solidly biblical.

Sure. Well, I pastor in Port Charlotte, Florida, which is on the southwest side of Florida, about an hour and a half south of Tampa, and about the same distance from Fort Myers, north of Fort Myers.

We are near Punta Gorda, near Northport. As a matter of fact, our church is on the

Northport -Port Charlotte border, and I actually live in South Venice, and our home is about 23 minutes from where the church is located.

And so we would love to have people visit us, and if you would like to give us a call at Victory Baptist Church, our number is 941 -220 -8317, and we have a

Sunday morning worship at 10 o 'clock, Sunday Bible equipping hour at 6 p .m.,

and then a Wednesday prayer and Bible study at 7 p .m., as well as other services, such as men's fellowships and ladies' meetings.

But anyone living in the southwest part of Florida, we'd love to have you visit. We believe in expositional preaching.

We believe in not just preaching about the Word, but we believe in preaching the Word. And so the messages will be expository generally.

It's not that I'm against topical preaching, it's just that I believe that the best way to expound the whole counsel of God is to give people the

Word of God in the order in which He gave it, unfolding a context or a unit of thought that people can grab and truly get to learn

God's wonderful Word. Amen, and that is also an excellent method.

It's not foolproof, because if anybody's determined to do something, they will do it anyway, but it is a helpful guard rail to prevent hobby -horsing.

Well, that is true, because a lot of preaching, a pastor or evangelist or a teacher will often start with a topic and then go to the

Bible to find verses that suit that topic. And in doing so, sometimes they'll lift those verses out of their context in order to suit the topic or subject that they're preaching on.

Whereas if you preach through a unit of thought, through a paragraph of Scripture, you're going to determine what

God's overall theme is for that paragraph, and then see how God unfolds that theme, and that will help actually structure the outline of your message.

And if a person follows proper rules of hermeneutics, this is,

I believe, the best way to really feed the flock of God. Now tell us about what an equipping hour is.

I heard you mention that as a part of your services. Many years ago in Queens, we started a

Bible Institute, which met on Monday evenings, and what we're doing now is we're actually teaching a

Bible Institute or Bible college -level course every

Sunday night. And right now we just began the subject of eschatology, so if anyone would like to learn about the last days and what the

Scripture teaches about the end times, we do that every Sunday night from 6 to 7 o 'clock.

Do you have any time blocked off on your calendar when you no longer will be conducting those, because you believe the return of Christ will happen?

Well, you know, this course will probably take us about six months to cover, but then what

I do is I teach various doctrines, and we'll teach all of the major doctrines, such as anthropology, bibliology, ecclesiology, or the doctrine of the

Church. We'll teach Christology, the doctrine of Christ, pneumatology, theology proper, soteriology, the doctrine of salvation, as well as other college -level courses to help equip our people for the work of the ministry.

When are you going to start teaching the important things? You know, a lot of people who are of a different persuasion might ask that.

There's nothing more important than teaching people about the nature of man, the nature of Christ, the

Holy Spirit, the details regarding his great salvation, and so covering a systematic theology in a church is something that, unfortunately, most church folks never get.

But here's an opportunity for people to grow and to learn some things that they might otherwise have to go to Bible college or seminary to learn.

Well, I'm going to give our email address if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Pastor Vinny.

We will allow you to ask nearly any theological question, but we are primarily hoping to get questions regarding the hypostatic union, both the humanity and deity of Jesus Christ, especially since we have the

Christmas season that we have now entered into. In fact, Christmas is next week. That is just amazing to me.

Yes, it is. Next week at this time, next Monday. That's right. But our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And, you know, this is very brief. I don't want you to be, I don't want to belabor this issue because I don't want to sidetrack what we are primarily here to talk about.

But I've been noticing on the internet, and it's been happening pretty much every year that I've been on the internet.

I'm a fairly latecomer to the internet. I guess the mid -90s is when I started dabbling on the internet.

And I'm still really horrible technologically. I'm really a horrible person when it comes to the internet.

But there are people out there, and I'm not talking about Jehovah's Witnesses or members of cults, but I'm talking about people that are primarily either coming from a theologically reformed background or even a fundamentalist background who don't think that we should be celebrating

Christmas because of the pagan origins of Christmas. And I personally do not have a problem with Christians Christianizing a day that used to be a pagan day, as long as we are not incorporating anything idolatrous or anti -biblical or heretical or blasphemous into that day.

I don't know what your thoughts are on it, but why don't you let us know? Well, certainly there is no biblical mandate to celebrate

Christmas or Easter, or Good Friday for that matter. However, these give us opportunities to let the world, which

I realize they call Christmas different things. They're taking Christ out of Christmas, and really it's become a time of gift -giving and so forth, not realizing

God gave the greatest gift, the gift of His Son. But it's an opportunity for us as believers, regardless of the origin of December 25th, or the origin of Easter for that matter, to let people know why

Christ became incarnate, why He came into the world. And it gives us an opportunity to share the

Gospel and to explain that just as we give gifts to others at Christmastime, God gave the gift of His Son, and that's the greatest gift of all, according to 2

Corinthians 8 and verse 9. It's just wonderful that God loves us so much.

He says, therefore you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sakes

He became poor, so that you through His poverty might become rich. Speaking of spiritual richness and really in Christ, we are joint heirs with Christ, and because of His love for us, because of God giving

His unspeakable gift, you and I are blessed today. And so,

I think regardless of whether or not somebody has a conviction for or against Christmas, let's use every opportunity

God opens up as an opportunity to share the true message of the

Good News, the Gospel message. 05 .06 Amen. This is Paul, the

Apostle Paul on Mars Hill, when he was referring to the altar to the unknown God, he didn't just totally trash that concept, he used that to bring them to a knowledge of Christ.

Exactly, and he even quoted some secular poets in that context as well, and so I think, again, it shows us that as God opens opportunities, let's take advantage of those opportunities.

Let's let the world know why Christ became incarnate. Let's let them know who

He is and why He became a man, so that they can understand the grace of God, the nature of Christ, and of course

His great offer of eternal life by His grace. 05 .07

Amen. And I think that we who celebrate Christmas have to be very cautious about how harshly we disagree with those who have a conviction of not celebrating it because of even the

Roman Catholic connection to it and the pagan origin of the day. I think that brethren in Christ have a liberty either to ignore the celebrating of this day or to join in on it.

I think that to go either way in condemnation can be un -Christlike according to the spirit, the

Irenic spirit, that we are called to have with brethren about secondary and tertiary issues.

Well, I agree, Chris. I think I like the maxim of Augustine who said that in essentials we must have unity, in non -essentials we must allow liberty, but in all things we must show charity.

And I believe that if we would stick to that maxim, I believe that we'd go a long way, and rather than burning bridges with people that we might otherwise help, we'd really be more influential in the lives of others.

Well, I think what we should do is address our subject in the reverse that I have promoted it.

I have the theme as son of Mary, son of God, the humanity and deity of the second person of the

Triune Godhood, and perhaps we should just address them differently, starting with the son of God aspect of Jesus and his deity, because in our day and age you have not only cults but liberals, liberals who have conquered the denominations where they now serve in leadership that were started by Bible -believing

Christians going across the spectrum from Arminianism to Calvinism.

Many of these denominations, such as the Methodist Church and the

Presbyterian Church and other denominations, Lutheran churches and so on, began as believers in the inerrancy of Scripture and having the deity of Christ as a major and vital pillar.

And of course there are denominations within those groups that I just mentioned.

There are Bible -believing, truly solid evangelical Methodists and Presbyterians and Lutherans and so on, but the larger denominations within those groups, at least here in the

United States, have really caved in and have been conquered by apostasy.

So you're going to have people who are going to be challenged by friends, family, and neighbors, or perhaps even strangers knocking at their doors.

That would be primarily, of course, Jehovah's Witnesses and in different parts of the country

Mormons who are going to try to win people over to their way of thinking.

The Mormons have a lot more of an ecumenical approach these days.

They are a lot different than they used to be. They have a facade of claiming that they are just another branch of Christianity, which a

Jehovah's Witness would never say, at least currently would never say. But let's start with the the deity of Jesus Christ.

And of course I know that you would agree with me that Jesus Christ is not a man who became a

God. Jesus Christ existed in eternity past. There was never a point where Jesus Christ came into existence as God.

He was always the second person of the Trinity, even though there was a point in time where he became a human being.

That's right. And I think that you're very wise in starting then with the divine nature of Christ, because He, being the

Son of God, would become the Son of Man by taking upon Himself a human nature.

And so I think it is good to start with His divine nature. And to do that,

I think we even need to start just at least briefly touching on the triune nature of God, that God is a triune being.

We use the word Trinity, and we recognize that the word Trinity is nowhere found in the

Bible. However, the concept of the three -in -one is clearly taught in the

Scripture. And I know, really, it's hard for people to understand how

God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit can be three and yet one, three persons and one divine being.

And there's no analogy that can perfectly illustrate the triune nature of God.

Some have used the illustration of the atom, how everything in the universe is made up of atoms, which has a proton, neutron, and electron, three distinct elements, yet making one atom.

Others have used the musical chord, how you can play three notes on the piano at once.

They make one sound, but in that one sound, you hear those three distinct sounds.

Others have used the illustration of the egg with the yolk, the white, and the shell. Some use the illustration of a three -leaf clover, three and yet one.

Perhaps God has built little illustrations of His nature in creation, but there's no illustration that we can use that will perfectly illustrate how

God is three and yet He is one. Yeah, they're more prone to lead people into error, like modalism or tritheism.

That's correct. And without getting into those divergences,

I do believe that our faith is not resting on our logic.

It is not resting on our ability to even to totally comprehend, because our mind is not our authority.

Our authority is the Scripture. And so what we need to do is always go to the Scripture and see what does the

Scripture say about God. And when you start in Genesis, he starts right out in the first verse of Genesis 1 .1,

in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and the word God is Elohim. And anyone who knows

Hebrew knows that the eme ending on the end of a Hebrew word indicates plurality.

So even in the name God, He is, I believe, hinting or allowing for the concept of the three in one, or the

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit being three persons but one God.

And that word Elohim, which is translated God in the singular, even though it's a plural word, occurs over 2 ,500 times in the

Old Testament. And then you also see in the creation account in Genesis 1 .26,

where God uses plural pronouns in speaking of Himself. For example,

He says, let us make man in our image, after our likeness.

And of course, He was not talking to the angels, for angels had nothing whatsoever to do with creation.

But He was speaking, I believe, to the Father, to the Son, and to the Spirit. And what's interesting,

Chris, if you study your Bible, you'll find that in John 1, in Colossians 1, and in Hebrews 1, all three passages describe how

God made everything by Jesus Christ. And apart from Jesus Christ, nothing was made that has been made.

So Jesus is creator of everything. He made it all according to very clear statements in the

New Testament, John 1 .3, Colossians 1 .16, and Hebrews 1 .2,

very clear statements showing that Jesus is creator. So if God says, let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and we know that Jesus made everything, well, that's an implicit proof that Jesus is

God, that He is divine. But then there's many scriptures, even in the

Old Testament, which hint at the triunity of God. I think of Isaiah 48 .16,

where He says, come near unto me, hear this, I have not spoken in secret from the beginning, from the time that it was, there am

I. And now the Lord God and His Spirit have sent me.

And there you have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit mentioned in one verse of scripture.

And then, of course, Isaiah 61 .1 says, the Spirit of the Lord God is upon me, me being

Jesus Christ, as that is fulfilled in Luke chapter 4. And so scriptures like that, again, bring the

Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together into one verse. And there are many indications just like that, both in the

Old Testament as well as in the New Testament, such as the baptismal formula, where God says to baptize

His disciples in the name, singular, of the Father, and of the Son, and of the

Holy Spirit. And then in Ephesians 2 .18, it says, for through Him, that's

Jesus, we both, Jew and Gentile, have access by one Spirit unto the

Father. And so there again, the believer's access to God indicates the triune nature of God.

And of course, everybody is aware of Paul's benediction in 2 Corinthians 13 .14,

where he says, the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the

Holy Ghost be with you all. Amen. And making such statements like this, if Jesus wasn't

God, by putting Him in the same sentence, and ascribing to Him the same character and attributes as God, the

Father, would be utter blasphemy, if Jesus wasn't co -equal with God the

Father. Well, we're going to go to our first break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Don't go away. God willing, we'll be right back with Pastor Vincent Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida, right after these messages from our sponsors.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arns and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours is

Pastor Vinnie Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida and founder of Macedonian Call Ministries.

We are discussing Jesus Christ, Son of Mary, Son of God, and the first hour we are going to be dedicating to the deity of Christ and we will get to as much of the information from the scriptures on the humanity of Christ during the second hour.

If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Some of you have already sent in questions about the humanity of Christ but we'll wait to address your questions for the second hour.

I don't know if you wanted to finish a thread of thought that you had there, Pastor Vinnie, but one thing that you will commonly hear, especially from liberal individuals, and I'm not even saying that they have some kind of an extreme leftist agenda, but your average person who is not really regenerate, who thinks that the bible has some wonderful heart -moving stories and they love to hear about the baby

Jesus every Christmas because he is harmless, lying there in a manger as an infant, and you know there are many things that even the secular world, even those of other religions, appreciate about the bible stories.

But these people will come to us and they will say, why are you so adamantly opposed to those who do not believe that Jesus is

God? I mean, the Muslims love Jesus. In fact, the

Muslims say that he's the Messiah, that he is returning, and you have the

Mormons who named their religion after Jesus Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day

Saints, and you have other religions that love Jesus, but they do not believe in his deity as you do, and whenever I hear of somebody saying that, there are other religions who love

Jesus, even many from the Jewish community will have kind things to say about Jesus, and I will say to them, what

Jesus are they referring to? Are they referring to the Jesus of the inerrant scriptures, or are they discussing and praising a

Jesus of their own imagination? And if you could pick up from there. Dr. Ehrman Sure. Well, the

Apostle Paul made mention of the fact that there were others who preached another

Jesus. So there is the biblical Christ, the biblical Jesus, and then there is a

Jesus that people make up that is not based on scripture, it's actually based on their own imagination or a twisting of scripture, which they do to their own destruction, because the

Lord Jesus actually said, unless you believe that I am he, you will die in your sins.

And so it is essential that people understand that Jesus is the

I am, that he is Jehovah God who became incarnate.

And you know what's interesting, Chris, just to park for a second on that idea of Jesus being the

I am, in Exodus 3 .14, Moses, of course, is before the burning bush, and God commissions him to go and lead the children of Israel out of Egypt, and Moses starts offering excuses, and one of the excuses is, well, who will

I say sent me? And God speaks to him, Jehovah God speaks to him out of that burning bush, and he says, you tell them

I am sent you. He said, that is my name. I am that I am.

And the name I am and the name Yahweh are actually related terms.

And you come to your New Testament, you'll find scriptures like John 8, 58, where Jesus will say, before Abraham was,

I am. And the most grammatically correct way of saying that, if he was only describing pre -existence, would be to say, before Abraham was,

I was. But what's very interesting is that Jesus uses ego eimi, before Abraham was,

I am, to show that he is, in fact, the I am of Exodus 3 .14.

But then, I think the real key scripture is you go to John 18, and when they come to arrest

Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus asks them, who are you seeking? And then he says,

I am. And as soon as he said unto them, I am, the he is italicized, which means it is not part of the original

Greek. He did not say, I am he. He said, I am. But it says in John 18, 6, as soon then as he had said unto them,

I am, they went backward and fell to the ground. Can you imagine these people coming to arrest

Jesus? These burly soldiers? And all he does is he says,

I am, and they hit the dust. They get blown backward by his words,

I am, because he is truly the great I am of the Old Testament.

He is Jehovah God. Yeah, that still to this day baffles me why

Mel Gibson, who was at the time a sativacantist, traditionalist

Roman Catholic, why he removed that scene from the arrest of Jesus.

Because even for, even if you wanted to say he was a secular filmmaker, what an interesting and phenomenal and amazing scene that actually occurred from the biblical account, and we believe also was a historic event.

To remove that is insane, unless you have a liberal agenda or something. And at the time,

Mel Gibson had no such agenda. So it was bizarre that he did that. Yeah, I often question that myself, because he does have the scene of the

Garden of Gethsemane, and he has, of course, Peter cutting off Malchus's ear, and then

Jesus putting it back on, and he has all kinds of events, but he missed that one.

And I think, unfortunately, a lot of Christians miss that. Although it's right there in the text, right there in John 18, and wow, that would have made an awesome scene showing, in fact, the power of Jesus.

He could have left him on the ground if he wanted to, but he allowed him to get up and arrest him, and then nailed him to a cross, because that's why he came.

He came to give his life as a ransom for many. Okay, we have a listener in Slovenia, Joe, who says,

Dear Brothers Chris and Vinny, I heard the following objection to the Trinity. The concept of the

Trinity is based on the conclusions set forth by the Nicene Creed and the Athanasian Creed.

Neither of these creeds was written by prophets or apostles. Their writers did not even claim to be prophets or apostles to have received any special revelation on the matter.

Therefore, they had no real authority to say what Scripture really means. They were just engaging in conjecture.

If these creeds are simply repeating the plainly event words of the apostles, such as that their conclusions are not even debatable, why are they needed?

If it is all immensely obvious in the Bible, then I only need the Bible making these creeds redundant.

If it is not immensely obvious, what makes their conjecture more legitimate than anyone else's?

How would you answer such an objection? Well, it's interesting, before you give your own thoughts on it, we don't need the

Nicene Creed or the Athanasian Creed, but every church worth its salt, for instance, will have some kind of an outline that summarizes the core beliefs that they believe are necessary for a

Christian to believe that are in the Scripture. Just because they're already in the Scripture, to repeat them in either a church constitution, a creed, or a confession is not a nonsensical or a waste of time, because there are so many enemies of Christ objecting to things that are clear in the

Bible. It doesn't matter how clear things are in the Bible, the enemies of Christ will come up with ways to either twist the

Scriptures or to deny the Scriptures to oppose core doctrine. So the

Nicene Creed wasn't the first place that the disciples were taught about the

Trinity, we have it in the pages of the God -breathed Word, but if you could give your own comment on that.

Sure. Certainly our faith does not rest in any creed. However, our faith rests in the

Word of God. But the same Holy Spirit that can give you and I wisdom, Chris, regarding doctrine, regarding the nature of God, through the

Scripture as our only authority, has also lived in other people throughout church history.

And so certain creeds can be helpful, because certainly God opened their eyes to truth from His Word, just as He opens our eyes to truth.

And so no creed, however, should be our authority. Our authority should only be the

Bible. But again, the same Holy Spirit who dwells in you has dwelt in others, and we can benefit by what

God has shown others as well. But always be a Berean and check it out with the

Scripture, just like the Bereans did of Paul's preaching, to see whether those things were so.

Because our authority is the Word of God, and the Bible alone forms the basis for our faith, our understanding of God and Christ.

It's squarely the Scripture and not any creed. And Joe in Slovenia also says,

Would Macedonian Call be willing to come to train pastors in Slovenia? Oh, absolutely.

If he would like to get in contact with me, he can go to our website and do that.

He's welcome to go to salvationvictory .com, and he can contact me there, and we'll be glad to get to know them and see how we can go and help.

And I've already forwarded his email to you, so you could actually respond to him if you'd like to.

Very good. Great to have him ask that good question. Thank you so much,

Joe in Slovenia. So going back to the main objection, really, the objection is that the first time we ever hear of the concept of the

Trinity is in these creeds, but that's not true. Just because the word Trinity, as you said, is not in the

Bible, does not mean that Christians did not believe in the Trinity. Right. And actually, as you study the

New Testament, and I'm about to give you Scriptures of John and Thomas and Paul and the writer of Hebrews and so on that really show the divine nature of Christ very clearly.

And so you don't need the Nicene Creed or any other creed to prove the Trinity doctrine.

Again, we're not talking about justifying a particular word, but the concept is clearly taught in Scripture of God the

Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. Let me give you some examples where Jesus is directly called

God in the Bible. For example, in Matthew 1 .23, quoting

Isaiah 7 .14, the Bible says, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name

Emmanuel, which being interpreted is God with us, or with us is

God. And so Emmanuel is a word that indicates the deity of Christ.

But also John, the Apostle John, refers to Jesus as being

God. We're aware of John 1 .1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the

Word was God, and that Word became flesh and dwelt among us, he says in verse 14.

And so clearly the Word is Jesus, who is clearly called God.

Of course, Revelation 21 .7, John said this, or Jesus said through John, He that overcometh shall inherit all things, and I will be his

God, and he shall be my son. And so if you study the

Gospel of John, or the Epistle of John, 1 John 5 .20, or the Book of Revelation, you'll find that John believed in the deity of Christ.

The same is true of doubting Thomas. Thomas, of course, said,

Unless I see him, I will not believe. He was refusing to believe in a resurrected

Christ. But in John 20, when Jesus does appear to him, he says to Thomas, Be not faithless, but believing.

And the Bible says, And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my

God. And Jesus said, Because you have seen me, you have believed. Blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

And some people say, Well, Thomas was beside himself. He didn't really understand what he was saying there when he said,

My Lord and my God. He was just so excited to see the resurrected Christ.

Well, if that be true, then Jesus should have rebuked him for taking the name of God in vain.

But instead, he commends him. He doesn't correct him. He congratulates him. He says,

You're blessed because you've seen and believed. But more blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe that he is truly

Lord and God. And so Thomas clearly believed in the deity of Christ.

Jesus refers to himself as God by saying in John 1030,

I and my Father are one, not one. I gave that verse to a

Jehovah's Witness one time, and he said, Well, what he meant was we are one in purpose, not one in nature or one in essence.

We are one in purpose. And my response to him was, Well, then why the reaction of the

Jews, where they would then pick up stones in verse 33 and throw at him?

They did not believe he was merely saying we are one in purpose, for they themselves thought that they were one in purpose with God.

They knew that he was claiming to be one in essence with God. And of course, if you read the context,

Jesus says that he gives people eternal life, and you cannot give eternal life if you are not

God. Nobody gives eternal life who is not God. In John 14 verse 9,

Jesus said, He that hath seen me hath seen the Father. So to see him was to see

God the Father. The writer of Hebrews says this in chapter 1 verse 3, speaking of his son, who being the brightness of his glory and the express image of his person, he is the exact representation of the person of God.

And that is why to see him was to see God. And you know, God the Father actually refers to his son as God.

We know Jesus refers to the Father as God in several scriptures, but in Hebrews 1 8, it says of the

Father, but unto the Son, he, God the Father, saith, Thy throne,

O God, is forever and ever. A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of thy kingdom, quoting

Psalm 45, 6, and 7. So here, God the Father refers to his son as God.

How much more powerful can you get? And then of course, Paul makes several references to Jesus being

God. Chris, if you don't mind, I'll share a few. In Romans 9, 5, it says that he is overall

God, blessed forever. Acts 20, 28, feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.

Philippians 2, 6, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

In other words, he wasn't stealing something or taking something that didn't belong to him by claiming to be equal with God, for he truly was existing in the very form of God.

But then he became incarnate. Colossians 1, 15, he is called the image of the invisible

God. Colossians 2, 9, for in him dwelleth all the fullness of the

Godhead bodily. So all of the completeness or all of the perfection of the

Godhead, which is the Trinity right there in that one word, is found in Christ.

And then Titus 2, 13, Paul writes that we are looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great

God and our Savior, Jesus Christ. So several scriptures refer to Jesus directly as God.

But there are many more proofs of his divine nature, such as his titles.

He's called Son of God. Now, Son of God does not refer, as many think, to God giving birth or creating him.

No, it just means to be identified with. Darrell Bock Yeah, a lot of the enemies of the true faith and the opponents of the deity of Christ will actually use that as a proof of their in their minds.

Dr. Anthony Smith Right, right, right. And where they think that son would refer to offspring, because that is how we often use the word.

But scripture teaches that the word son, for example, is used of Timothy relating to Paul, where Paul called

Timothy his own son in the faith. Now, we know that he's not a son in the sense that he is his father.

But again, he's identified as his son because God used Paul to lead him to Christ.

But the word son, and you know, John 3, 16, he's called the only begotten son.

That word begotten, only begotten is actually one Greek word, monogenes, which literally means one of a kind or unique.

The same word one of a kind is used of Isaac in Hebrews 11, where he's called the one of a kind son or the only begotten son.

And so it does not refer to origin, it refers to uniqueness. And that phrase only begotten.

So Jesus, you and I are sons of God, but Jesus is the only begotten son of God, which means he has a unique relationship with God the

Father that no one else will ever have. And he is called the son of God because he is the one perfectly identifying with God, just as the title son of man shows that he perfectly identifies with man by becoming man.

So son of man shows his humanity, son of God shows his deity. And so he bears that title, son of God.

But he's also called God, as I just quoted some scriptures. He's called Lord, which the

Greek word is often a direct quote of the Old Testament word Yahweh. In fact,

Vinny, stop right there because we have to get to our midway break. So remember to pick up where Jesus is called

Lord. And if anybody else would like to join us on the air, and there are some of you waiting, if you want to get in line behind those who are already waiting to have a question asked and answered, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away, we'll be right back with Pastor Vinny Sawyer and more on our discussion of the deity and humanity of Jesus Christ.

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make a list, and then go to CVBBS .com and order those books. Always please remember to mention

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A couple of more things that we have to go to before we return to Pastor Vinny Sawyer. The G3 conference is returning to Atlanta, Georgia the 17th through the 20th on the theme,

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If you love this program, you don't want it to go away, please consider doing that. Well we are now back with our guest,

Pastor Vincent Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida. He's the founder of Macedonian Call Ministries and we are discussing

Jesus Christ, Son of Mary, Son of God, the humanity and deity of the Second Person of the Triune Godhood.

If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, city and state, and country of residence if you live outside the

USA. And Pastor Vinny, before we went to the break, you were just beginning to enter into the fact that Jesus Christ is

Lord, which you were equating with Him being clearly identified as deity from the pages of Scripture.

Well exactly, Chris, because the Scripture actually uses the term in the

New Testament, kwerios, which is very often a translation of a direct quote of the

Old Testament word Yahweh. I'll give you an example. In the book of Joel, chapter 2 and verse 32, the

Bible says, and it shall come to pass that whosoever shall call upon the name of the

Lord shall be saved, or delivered. And the word Lord there is the word

Yahweh, or Jehovah, depending on how you pronounce it. Then you come to a

Scripture like Romans 10 -13, where it quotes that very verse, and it says, for whosoever shall call upon the name of the

Lord, and in the context the Lord is Jesus, as he says in verse 9, if you will confess with your mouth the

Lord Jesus, and then he says in verse 13, for whosoever shall call upon the name of the

Lord shall be saved, and so very clearly he is tying together the

Old Testament word Yahweh, or Jehovah, and in the New Testament translating it

Lord, identifying Jesus as Jehovah God, and this comes up over and over and over again in the

New Testament. It just eludes the notice of people who just don't study the word on that, with that kind of depth, and I would encourage you to do a study of Jesus in the

Old Testament. Matter of fact, that's a book that I am working on right now.

I am so burdened for this, to show Jesus as Jehovah God, and you can go through the

Old Testament Scripture, or the Hebrew Scripture, and there are many references to Jesus in the

Old Testament, both which are quoted in the New Testament, but appearances of Christ as well in the

Old Testament. But just the New Testament word Kurios, or Lord, identifies

Jesus as God. He is called the Holy One. He is called

God with us. He is called the First and the Last in Revelation 22 -13, whereas if you go to Isaiah 44 -6,

Jehovah is called the First and the Last. He is called Savior in Titus 2 -13, and a multitude of other scriptures in the

New Testament, and yet if you study Isaiah 43 -11, it says, I Jehovah am

Savior, and besides me there is no Savior. So he says there's no

Savior outside of me, and then we find over and over again Jesus is called

Savior. But you know, Chris, Jesus claimed and exercised the prerogatives that belong only to God.

He had the rights of God and did the works of God, such as forgiving sin. The Pharisees were right when they said, who can forgive sin but God only?

Yet Jesus showed that he could forgive sins by healing the paralytic and forgiving him.

He raises the dead. Only God can do that, but Jesus raises the dead. He controls nature, like he did on the

Sea of Galilee, on the stormy sea. He received worship, even by angels, as Hebrews 1 -6 says, let all the angels of God worship him.

And in multiple occurrences, Jesus is worshipped in the New Testament. Only God is worshipped in the

Bible. He must be God. He sends the Holy Spirit, John 15 -26.

He creates all things, as we've already said earlier. Only God is creator, and yet the

Bible says Jesus is creator. He sustains creation, according to Colossians 1 -17.

He preserves it, and he's the judge of all, as Jesus said in John 5 -22, for the

Father judges no man, but has committed all judgment unto the Son. And then you come to Revelation 20 -11, when they stand before God at the great white throne judgment, they must be standing before the

Lord Jesus, for the Father judges no man, but he has committed all judgment unto the

Son. And he grants eternal life. He is called

Savior. He receives equal honor with the Father. He answers prayer.

He says, if you will ask anything in my name, I will do it. John 14 -14, and on and on we could go.

Jesus is God, and the works of God that he did, and the prerogatives of God which he has clearly stated, demonstrate his deity.

Amen. In fact, if you're listening and you have ability to grab a pen and paper, James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries, who as you know,

Vinny, has been a dear friend of mine since 1995. I've orchestrated many debates and speaking engagements with Dr.

White. And many years ago, he really gave an extremely helpful tool, biblically, when you are approached by Jehovah's Witnesses who are trying to strip

Jesus of his deity. This is a pairing of Old and New Testament scriptures that actually evoked from a

Jehovah's Witness woman, an elderly woman, a slap across James White's face. When she had no answer to him, she slapped him.

But if you want to write this down, the pairing, there's two pairs of scriptures that you might want to remember or you should remember to bring up Jehovah's Witnesses, those of you listening.

Psalm 102, 25 -27, and Hebrews 1, 1 -12.

And then John 12, 30 -41, and Isaiah 6, 1 -10.

And I'll repeat that one more time. John 102, 25 -27, and Hebrews 1, 1 -12.

That's the first pair. John 12, 30 -41, and Isaiah 6, 1 -10.

And if you don't mind, Vinny, I'm just going to read those passages, starting in Psalm 102, 25 -27.

Of old, you founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.

Even they will perish, but you endure, and all of them will wear out like a garment, like clothing.

You will change them, and they will be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end.

And if you say to a Jehovah's Witness, even from their New World Translation, who is that talking about?

And they will say immediately, oh, that's Jehovah. Well, that's when you go to Hebrews 1, 1 -12, and there we read in Hebrews, God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers and the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us, in his

Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the world, and he is the radiance of his glory, and the exact representation of his nature, and upholds all things by the word of his power.

When he made purification of sins, he sat down at the right hand of the majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as he has inherited a more excellent name than they, for to which the angels did ever say, you are my son, today

I have begotten you, and again, I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me.

And when he again brings the firstborn into the world, he says, and let all the angels of God worship him, and the angels, he says, who makes his angels, who makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire, but of the

Son, he says, your throne, oh God, is forever and ever, and the righteousness, the righteous scepter of the scepter of his kingdom, you have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore

God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your commands, and above your companions,

I'm sorry, and then you, Lord, in the beginning, you,

Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands, they will perish, but you remain, and they will become old like a garment, and like a mantle, you will roll them up like a garment, they will also be changed, but you are the same, and your years will not come to an end.

And that there is obviously referring to Jesus Christ. So after the

Jehovah's Witnesses already recognized that Jehovah was being spoken of in the

Old Testament with those same words that I concluded with, they have to come to grips with the fact that Jesus Christ, the

Son, is being referred to in the New Covenant. And then we go to the Gospel of John, verse 12, 30 through 41,

Jesus answered and said, this voice has not come for my sake, but for your sakes.

Now judgment is upon this world, now the ruler of this world will be cast out, and I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.

But he was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which he was to die. The crowd then answered him, we have heard out of the law that the

Christ is to remain forever, and how can you say the Son of Man must be lifted up?

Who is this Son of Man? So Jesus said to them, for a little while longer the light is among you.

Walk while you have the light, so that darkness will not overtake you. He who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes.

While you have the light, believe in the light, so that you may become sons of light.

These things Jesus spoke, and he went away and hid himself from them, but though he had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in him.

This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet, which he spoke, Lord, who has believed our report, and to whom has the arm of the

Lord been revealed? For this reason they could not believe, for as Isaiah said again, he has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart, so that they would not see with eyes and receive with their heart and be converted as I heal them.

These things Isaiah said because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

And then we go to Isaiah chapter 6, 1 through 10. In the year of King Uzziah's death,

I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with a train of his robe filling the temple.

Seraphim stood above him, each having six wings, with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

And one called out to another and said, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts. The whole earth is full of his glory.

And the foundations of the thresholds trembled at the voice of him who called out, while the temple was filling with smoke.

Then I said, Woe is me, for I am ruined, because I am a man of unclean lips, and I live among a people of unclean lips.

For my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

Then one of the Seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs.

He touched my mouth with it and said, Behold, this has touched your lips, and your iniquity is taken away, and your sin is forgiven.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?

Then I said, Here I am, send me. And he said, Go and tell his people, keep on listening, but do not perceive.

Keep on looking, but do not understand. Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull and their eyes dim.

Otherwise, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed."

That very reference that Jehovah's Witnesses will claim as Jehovah right there in the Old Covenant was already, as we read previously just moments ago, a very reference to Jesus Christ.

Amen. And the ones that you mentioned are excellent. I've got about 30 of those parallels where Jehovah is described in the

Old Testament, and then you have a direct fulfillment in Christ in the New Testament.

But those are really excellent passages that I also use to demonstrate the deity of Christ and the fact that He is

Jehovah God. And so, if anyone would like, if they would email me,

I would be very happy to send just a very brief outline of the deity of Christ, that they can look up some of these parallels that you find when comparing

Old Testament Scripture referring to Jehovah God, and then New Testament being fulfilled by Jesus the

Messiah. I'd be very happy to send you that email on the deity of Christ, and also

I'll send you a brief outline on the on the

Triune Godhead as well, because I think a lot of clarity needs to be brought on these subjects.

What is your email address so our listeners can have that? They can send the email to PastorVincentSawyer at gmail .com.

That's PastorVincentSawyer at gmail .com.

Great. We're going to go to our final break right now, and when we return we will continue, and this time switch over to the humanity of Jesus, because it's interesting to know, and I'm sure you probably know this as well,

Pastor Vinny, that one of the first heresies that the church was confronted with was those who denied the humanity of Jesus.

Right, and Chris, after the break I could, or now, I could mention why I think that was so.

All right, well if you want to quickly mention it, because we are going to a break. It's up to you. Oh, I'll wait till after the break.

Okay, we're going to go to our final break right now, and if you have a question please email it to us now, and we do have some of you already waiting.

Our email address is ChrisArnson at gmail .com. ChrisArnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Pastor Vinny Sawyer, God willing, after these messages from our sponsors.

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I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. Hi, I'm Mark Lukens, pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

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Or visit linbrookbaptist .org. That's linbrookbaptist .org. Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsin, and we are returning to our final 25 minutes of the program with Pastor Vincent Sawyer of Victory Baptist Church of Port Charlotte, Florida, and founder of Macedonian Call Ministries.

We have been discussing Jesus Christ, Son of Mary, Son of God, the humanity and deity of the second person of the triune

Godhead, and we are now currently addressing the humanity of Jesus. If you'd like to join us on the air before we run out of time, now is the time to do it or forever hold your peace.

Send it to ChrisArnsin at gmail .com. ChrisArnsin at gmail .com. And of course, that's a joke. You don't have to hold your peace.

You could actually email Vinny with your questions after the show's over if you want to. But we would hope that some of you would join us as long as time will permit while we are on the air live.

And Pastor Vinny, you were about to tell us why it is that one of the first heresies that raised its ugly head in the

Church 2 ,000 years ago was a denial of the humanity of Christ.

Right. You would think it would be the deity, but it was actually the humanity. And this heresy was actually in existence in the day of John, because John writes in 1

John 4 verses 2 and 3, Hereby know ye the Spirit of God, every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that confesses not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God.

And this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof you have heard that it should come, and even now already it is in the world.

And then in 2 John 1 7, John writes something very similar.

He says, For many deceivers are entered into the world who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

This is a deceiver and an antichrist. And so the antichrist of his day were actually saying that Christ or Messiah, that's the term

I like to use, because it really shows messianic fulfillment of the

Hebrew scriptures. But everyone who does not admit that the Messiah has come in the flesh already in the person of Jesus is actually opening themselves up,

I believe, eschatologically for one who will come in the future and claim, I am the

Messiah that you've been looking for. And that spirit of antichrist was already in the world in John's day.

But I believe in the last days, this spirit of antichrist will really be pervading the earth as people will be denying that Jesus has come in the flesh, or that I should say that Messiah has already come in the flesh.

Because it'll pave the way for some pseudo false Messiah doctrine to be promoted.

And so whether that be a Jewish Messiah or a Muslim Messiah, for they're truly looking for the

Mahdi, who is their Messiah, they're looking for the coming of the Mahdi, the

Islamic Messiah, which whether he will be, the antichrist will be a

Jewish false Messiah or a Muslim false Messiah, if people deny that the

Messiah has already come in the flesh, that actually paves the way for the opportunity for satanic doctrine in the future to say that, well,

Jesus wasn't the Messiah who came in the flesh, but here he is. And we, many

Christians believe that the antichrist is going to be revealed in the last days.

We have a listener in Ada, Ohio, David, who says, concerning the humanity of Jesus, do you have any information about if Jesus was conceived using

Mary's egg? And what are the implications for and or against each method of his birth, i .e.

for using her egg and against using any part of sinful humanity for his birth?

Just wondering, thank you. I guess that might involve more detail than the scriptures give us, because we know that he was certainly conceived in Mary's womb, but I don't know, does that require, we believe, that an actual egg of Mary was used?

Well, the scripture does teach that the Word became flesh. The scripture also says in Romans 1 -3 that he was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.

And so Jesus does have, in terms of his humanity, a genealogical link all the way back to David and all the way back to Abraham.

In fact, there's a link all the way back, a legal link, all the way back to Adam.

And so I believe that the sin nature is passed on not by the egg of the woman, but I believe that the sin nature is passed on seminally from the seed of man.

The scripture teaches, without getting into too much depth, that Levi was in the loins of Abraham when

Abraham met Melchizedek. And we're talking hundreds of years before Levi would be born, he was in the loins of Abraham.

How? In seed form. And so I believe that it is the male seed that transmits the sin nature from father to child, father to child, all the way back to Adam.

However, Christ being virgin born, and not the result of a male seed, but in fact the seed of a woman, the

Bible says, which I believe would be the egg, that Jesus indeed would have a physical body that would come via Mary, but he would not, his essence or his true divine nature, actually he's the

Lord from heaven who would enter her womb. And I think the miracle of miracles is how

Christ could become incarnate, how God could become a man, but he needed to do that,

Chris, in order to die for men. For the scripture says that he took part of flesh and blood so that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for every man.

So, in short, I believe that Jesus bypasses the seed of man being conceived in a miraculous way, that he is not the result of a human male seed, but that would not negate the fact that he still, in terms of his physical body, would have a genealogical link back to David, back to Abraham, through Mary.

So I would say it wouldn't be out of orthodoxy to say that Christ did obtain a physical body through the human egg of Mary, but we know for a fact that he was not conceived in the normal way through the seed of man.

Yes, and in fact, I know this is going to upset some of my, if not all of my,

Roman Catholic listeners, but don't you agree that even though Roman Catholicism has shared with us the view that Jesus is fully man and fully

God, they believe in the hypostatic union, they believe that is a vital element of their theology and dogma, but some of the details that they add to the story that are not biblical, in my opinion and in the opinion of others that are

Protestant or Bible -believing Christians, we believe that some of the things that they teach in the

Church of Rome diminish the humanity of Jesus, and one of them would be the diminishment of the humiliation of his coming into this world.

They will, first of all, the very fact that they believe that Mary had to be sinless to carry him, and also,

I'm sorry if this is too vulgar for some of you to hear, but they actually believe that Mary never lost her hymen when delivering

Jesus, that her hymen remained intact, and she ever and forever remained a virgin.

These kinds of things, I think, take away from the humanity of Jesus, and what is your response to that,

Pastor Vinnie? Well, I would agree that it is total heresy to apply human logic to the incarnation of Christ by assuming that just because Jesus was virgin -born, that therefore

Mary must have been virgin -born, and that just because Jesus was without sin, therefore

Mary must be without sin. That is making, those are statements that cannot be proven from Scripture.

Matter of fact, Scripture teaches just the opposite. Scripture teaches both that Mary was a sinner, for she said,

I rejoice in God my Savior, and the very fact that she needed a Savior proved she was a sinner, but also, the

Scripture is also very clear that she had other children with Joseph, and so she did not remain a perpetual virgin.

Scripture teaches that she had other sons and daughters after Christ came into the world.

So that's just trying to apply human logic which distorts and twists the clear statements of Scripture, and really takes away from the uniqueness of Jesus the

Messiah. In fact, we should make one clarification, though. Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Mary was virgin -born, that she was born sinless and conceived sinless.

They don't believe her mother was a virgin. Oh, right. But that she was born without sin, just as Jesus was.

Right, and conceived without sin as well. Yes, yes.

And in that sense, I think it's robbing something that exclusively belongs to Jesus, that only

Jesus was conceived without sin, and again, I believe the sin nature is passed on seminally, from father to child.

Right. In fact, it is bizarre that Roman Catholics claim that a sinless

Savior would require a sinless mother when they don't believe that Mary's mother was sinless.

They contradict themselves with this whole thing. Well, that is true. It would have to start somewhere if you're going to proceed with that kind of logic and add to Scripture something that is nowhere found in the

Bible. But one of the other things that Catholicism does do is it basically elevates

Mary to the position of a co -mediatrix. And we know there's one mediator, according to 1

Timothy 2 .5, and that's Christ Jesus. And they also call her the Queen of Heaven, which is utter blasphemy, for in the

Old Testament, in Jeremiah 7 .18 and Jeremiah 44, the Israelites were committing a terrible sin by burning incense to the

Queen of Heaven, making cakes for the Queen of Heaven. And all of this,

I believe, was just another satanic diversion from the true and living

God. And I think that Mary -mariolatry is another diversion from the exclusive deity, divine nature of Jesus the

Messiah. By the way, I just wanted to quick say that one of our listeners in New York is someone who we both know and love,

Pastor Josh Fryman of Community Baptist Church of Riverhead, Long Island, just said he is loving listening to the program.

I'm going to give him a plug for Community Baptist Church of Riverhead. The website is communitybaptistchurch .net,

communitybaptistchurch .net for any of you listening who live in the Riverhead area or plan to visit there.

And we also have a listener in Greensboro, North Carolina, who has no question, but Sterling in Greensboro just wants to let us know that he is loving every minute of the show.

Wonderful. So good to have you listen, Sterling. And it's also a blessing to have our dear friend

Josh Fryman listening in Long Island. If you want a good church and you live in the Riverhead area,

I highly recommend Community Baptist. That's where I was going to become a member before I knew that God had other plans and wanted me to move to Pennsylvania through his providence.

But I had every intention on joining the Community Baptist Church in Riverhead because I was planning to move there after my wife went home to be with the

Lord. It was too depressing to live in the area that I was living. And so I had every intention to join the

Community Baptist Church. But much to their joy, I did not. But I want to make sure that you get as much information, though, as possible said over the airwaves about the humanity of Jesus and the necessity of that, because this is no less important than his deity when it comes to the redemption of the lost.

Well, that is correct, because Jesus, according to Scripture, had to become human in order to die as our substitute.

Scripture teaches us that he took part of that human nature so that he, with flesh and blood, so that he, by the grace of God, might taste death for every man.

And so he had to be both God and man to be an adequate sacrifice for the sins of the world.

Jesus had to be God in order to be an infinite sacrifice and to satisfy the just demands of God and to make propitiation for the sins of the world.

But also he had to be a man in order to be a suitable sacrifice to die for men.

He would have to become man, otherwise his sacrifice would not have equaled the payment which men were required to pay.

But if you were to read Hebrews 2, verses 14 to 17, it very clearly teaches both his divine nature and the need for him to become human.

And, you know, when you think about salvation, Jesus is the one who reconciles sinful man to a holy

God. He is described as the mediator between God and men in 1

Timothy 2 .5. Job looked for a daisman or arbitrator who understands both

God and man and can bring them together in harmony in Job 9, 32 and 33.

And then Hebrews 4, 14 through 16, in order for Jesus to be our great high priest in heaven, he had to bear the nature of both

God and man. Hebrews 7, 24 to 26, shows Christ as our intercessor and our high priest.

He had to be God and man in order to bridge the gap between the mortal and the immortal, between human and the divine.

And scripture teaches that he can be our advocate, 1 John 2 .1, because, again, he bears the nature of both

God and man. So to be a mediator, he has to bear the nature of both

God and man in order to bring us into relationship with God.

But there are many other reasons he had to become human. To become

King Jesus and fulfill the Davidic covenant, he had to be of the seed of David in terms of his humanity.

But yet to be the eternal King who will rule forever on the throne of David, he had to be

God. He had to be deity. And Jesus possessed these two distinct natures, both

God and man, two complete natures as well, albeit not with the sinful aspect of the human nature, which, again, we received seminally from our

Father who passed on that sin nature to us. And, again,

I believe in what is called seminal headship and that that sin nature is passed on through the seed of man, which

Jesus bypassed by the virgin birth. Now, one thing that may surprise a lot of our listeners—well, actually,

I don't know if I have a lot of listeners who would be fans of the Word of Faith movement and the heresies of many of the charismatic televangelists.

But it might surprise a lot of people nonetheless, even those that don't follow those heretical individuals, that many, if not most, in the

Word of Faith Pentecostal movement believe that when Jesus performed miracles on this earth and even when he died on Calvary, he did so devoid of deity.

He was doing those things purely as a man, not as God, and that he actually—and this is where it really gets blasphemous—they believe that Jesus became a demonic entity on Calvary and became the first born -again man in hell, as if Jesus needed to be born again.

I mean, it's astonishing. People may—all this stuff may fly by or fly over the heads of many people who think that these representatives are professedly—those who are professedly representatives of Christ's Church—they may be shocked to know those facts, but those are indeed the facts.

Right. And you know, Chris, it is utter heresy when people start adding concepts to the

Scripture, because none of those things that you mentioned can be supported from Scripture.

When Jesus became a man, he did not empty himself of his divine nature.

He was still God, but he was God in human form. And Scripture clearly teaches that he was totally man, yes, but he wasn't devoid of his deity.

In fact, in Philippians chapter 2, it says, "...who being in the form of God," the very essence of God, "...and

thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but he would make himself of no reputation, or literally empty himself, and he would take upon himself the form of a servant."

That word, empty, is a Greek word, kenao, and we get the doctrine of the kenosis from that.

And basically, when Jesus became a man, he did not empty himself of his deity, but he did, in fact, empty himself of the independent display of some of his divine attributes by becoming incarnate.

By becoming a human, he would take upon himself some human limitations, such as he would need to rest, he would become thirsty, he would need to eat, he would grow in stature, he would increase in wisdom, as it says in Luke chapter 2.

That's the most puzzling part for us to comprehend, is that even he did not know when the

Son of Man would return. Correct. In his human form, he did not know, because, again, he voluntarily surrendered the independent exercise of searching of his divine attributes while he was on earth.

For example, he gave up the independent use of his omnipresence. He couldn't be everywhere at the same time.

He gave up the independent use of his omniscience. He didn't know the timing of his return.

He gave up the independent use of some of his omnirelative attributes, but he did not empty himself of his holiness, of his righteousness, of his divine nature.

He did not empty himself of his deity, but he would just become so humble by doing everything under the leading of the

Spirit as God the Father would lead him. And certainly, when he died on the cross, he did not go to hell.

He actually said to the thief hanging next to him, today you will be with me in paradise. He did not die and go to hell.

That's, again, a false teaching. The very day he died, he said, into thy hands

I commend my spirit. He went straight to paradise, which is also called the third heaven, the abode of God.

There's no scripture that teaches that he would die and go into a fiery, burning hell.

He went into the grave, and that's how we understand that word, Hades, in the context of Christ.

And I'm sure you would agree that although the humanity of Jesus is a pillar and vital and necessary doctrine, it is a dangerous thing to attribute that same teaching to the

Father as the Mormons do, as the Word of Faith Pentecostals attribute to the

Father a physical body of flesh and bone and blood. That is heretical to go to that extreme, to blur the distinction between Father and Son.

Well, it is, because the Bible clearly makes the distinction. It also makes a multitude of statements for the oneness of the

Father and the Son, but yet it also shows the distinction between the Father and the Son.

And I know that that kind of teaching will short -circuit the minds of people who are going to try to figure it out rather than accept what

God's Word says by faith. But Jesus was the theanthropic person.

He is both anthropos man and theos God. He is the

God -man. And so God became man so that he might die for men. God became man so that he could share with men his own eternal life.

And God became man so that he might know human life by personal experience.

And in all of these I could support with Scripture. God became man so that he might give mankind an example of ideal humanity.

That's why he's called the second Adam. And God became man so that he might give man a visible self -revelation of himself so that we can see when we see

Christ, we see God. And so these are all demonstrations of the necessity for Christ to become incarnate.

But he had to be born at an appointed time to fulfill Daniel 9.

He had to be born in Bethlehem to fulfill Micah 5 -2. He had to be born of a virgin to fulfill

Isaiah 7 -14. And then he had to die for... He had to become incarnate to die for the sins of the world and fulfill a multitude of Scriptures about how he would be hated, rejected, betrayed, forsaken, sold, smitten, spit upon, nailed, forsaken, mocked, and pierced.

And then he had to become incarnate in order to be raised from the dead to fulfill

Psalm 16 -10. And then he had to become incarnate because Messiah is coming again and will be in a visible form as a man according to Zechariah 12.

And when they look on me whom they have pierced, as he says. Yes, and one more cult to throw into the mix.

The Oneness Pentecostals are seriously heretical when they say that Jesus Christ, the

Son of God, did not come into existence until the Incarnation. We believe that the second person of the

Trinity, the Son of God, coexisted with the Father and Spirit from all eternity past and will ever be together with the

Father and the Son. Well, as Micah 5 -2 says, his goings forth have been from old from everlasting.

And so this one who would be born in Bethlehem is described as being eternal in Micah 5 -2.

We are out of time, and I know that your website is SalvationVictory .com, SalvationVictory .com.

And I know that if anybody wants to find out more about Macedonian Call, they can go to SalvationVictory .com,

click on Our Ministries, and then click on Missions. And you will have all the information that you need about the

Macedonian Call ministry. Pastor Vinnie, it has been a joy to have you on the program. I look forward to your return very soon and often.

And it's been far too long. We can't wait years before you return to the program. Well, thank you so much,

Chris, for the opportunity. I consider it a privilege. And I also want to say to the listening audience that the

Bible teaches that if we are the recipients of spiritual food, the

Scripture teaches that we should support and that we should financially support those who teach us in all good things.

And you can read that in Galatians 6 and verse 6, that the person who is taught the

Word should share with the one who teaches in all good things. And so if I could just add a little admonition that if you're a regular listener to this broadcast, you have also a divine obligation to share a blessing with the one who is delivering this type of Bible teaching to you.

So God bless you, Chris. Thank you so much, brother. And I want to thank everybody who listened, especially those who wrote in questions.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.