Epic Conflict Outside Of Abortion Clinic

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probably know Jeff certainly more than he knows me going all the way back to the Empire State Nationals days.

00:06

I went back a ways. Yeah you did. I went back a ways. He watches my videos.

00:12

One of these things that Jeff doesn't know is that I was a huge huge fan of his from his karate days.

00:18

No. I am. Really? I am. I have been I have been for quite some time you know going like I said going back to the

00:24

Empire National Days. Right on. Wow. So it's kind of unique situation that Jeff and I find ourselves kind of head -to -head here on this particular issue and we've certainly gone head -to -head.

00:38

Yeah. Jeff will be sure to enlighten you about that I'm sure. Yeah yeah. Yeah so I think initially

00:44

I don't know how long you've been coming out. How long has it been now? I've been coming out to this location for probably about seven months now.

00:51

Okay. I have been to other locations. I actually did a counter protest at an

00:57

IVF clinic of all places. Right. In Texas. AHA was out there protesting. Recently did that?

01:03

It was actually a couple years ago. Oh okay really. What do you think about IVF clinics? I actually forgot to ask you. We've talked about that.

01:09

Yeah it's when we first started doing this a couple years ago getting involved we started doing our research trying to figure out how do we do this?

01:17

How do we minister to the women? How do we do it in a way that. Do you agree with your IVF clinic? No. No. I struggle and Errol and I talked a bit about this.

01:24

I struggle with the idea of creating unique life and then either destroying it or putting it on ice.

01:32

I haven't yet been able to do that yet but what we're involved in is we our churches is going the direction of getting involved in have you ever heard of snowflake babies?

01:43

That's the human beings that are produced through these IVF processes. They're usually produced way more than they need and they'll put them on ice.

01:51

So snowflake adoptions are essentially getting those human beings and implanting them into someone's into a mother's uterus so that it can grow and so there's amazing stories today of children alive today because they were snowflake babies and so creating unique human life and then destroying it creating unique human life and throwing in a way we think is a horrible thing.

02:17

So how come you don't protest? We're getting to it. Put it that way. How come you haven't yet?

02:23

Because we're super busy. We're busy right now trying to end abortion and so we're getting to it.

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So what we are invested in right now is adoption. We have people at Apologia Church that are invested in adoption, foster care.

02:34

We have a lot of kids at Apologia Church that have come through or with us now. They're adopted or part of the foster care system.

02:41

We have a lot of parents at our church that are regularly involved in foster care and so snowflake babies is something we actually want to invest in and we're getting to it.

02:50

We're a small church and so we're getting to it. So how come you chose the abortion stuff before the snowflake stuff? Because well for us the abortion issue we have about 3 ,000 over 3 ,000 babies a day killed by abortion either chemical or surgical abortion so we're trying to tackle the big giant right now and sort of the the foundational mindset in our country of how we treat children and so that's what we're investing there but we're also investing in adoption and hopefully someday snowflake babies.

03:17

Why do you think he doesn't want to go to the IVF? I don't really know. That was certainly a question that I asked him in front of the clinic and to his credit you know his immediate response was that he took he took ownership of that.

03:31

He said you know that's you know I believe the quote was we have blind spots and you know

03:37

I have blind spots in my religion and all granted. You know, as somebody of faith, I had blind spots in my religion too.

03:44

That kind of turned into turning a total eye away from religion.

03:51

I disavowed faith. And that's getting into a whole different subject altogether.

03:57

As far as why he doesn't, I don't really have the answer for that. There is there's some footage that I shot that I contrast that where he's here with anthropology at church.

04:10

He has this big old huge assembly here. I counted the number of patients that went in for procedures that day.

04:19

There were seven. One of the biggest days that they were out there protesting, there were seven. On the average, in an

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IVF clinic, over a hundred embryos are destroyed every single day, five days a week. On the one that I film at, their average runs about 70 embryos a day that are destroyed, donated to medical research.

04:38

So I kind of contrasted those numbers. You know, if life is what he's concerned about, let's talk about life.

04:47

If you want, you know, if Christianity, and it's not just Jeff, I'm not going to just pin this on Jeff, it's

04:53

Christianity in general. You know, when they have this worldview that every single fertilized embryo is of equal value, then why does it not come to the point of protesting

05:07

IVF? Now the particular clinic that I shoot my footage at is run by a Christian. He's run by an avowed

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Baptist. He attends a Baptist church here in Chandler. So that doctor actually, he professes

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Christianity. He's very strong in his faith to the extent that during one of his, during one of his, you know, campaigns to advertise his clinic, one of the seminars, there was a single woman that asked him, you know, can you assist me with IVF?

05:38

And he stated no, he couldn't do that because it was against his Christian moral view. The reason that he did was because she's a lesbian.

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So if you look at that contrast, here he is okay with operating a clinic that can destroy up to 70, in Jeff's own definition, 70 live embryos, 70 conceived children.

05:58

We'll call them children. He's okay with doing that. He's perfectly comfortable with doing that. In his eye,

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God condones that. And yet, he is going to deny the one life that he doesn't have to destroy.

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He did not have to destroy this life because she wanted to take on somebody else's. And she's not the only case.

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But I will reference this one case because, you know, even without her name, she gave me permission to reference the case.

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So he denied her the opportunity to take one of these embryos that he was going to destroy. And he decided that instead of allowing her to, you know, implant this embryo into her womb because she's a lesbian, he would rather destroy it.

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So where does the perfect morality that we hear about, where is the perfect standard lie?

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You know, is it a perfect standard to deny a human life because it's going to be hosted by a lesbian? Is it a perfect human standard to deny human life because it's going to be fostered by gay parents?

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Is it standard to deny a human life because my girlfriend and I want to adopt and yet we're blocked because she's transgender?

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We actually want to adopt and we are denied. Because in the realm of an industry that's operated primarily by Christian worldview, we can't.

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The Christians would rather these babies die in an abortion clinic than be adopted by us. So I think the heart of the problem needs to be addressed first and foremost.

07:26

It's not all the externals, right, that we can talk about all the problems that arise because of IVF.

07:31

We have to talk about fundamentally what's wrong with the practice. And I think it's um, I think it just it shows an interesting way of actually coming at this discussion in terms of bringing up IVF.

07:43

We shift the discussion away from what's taking place in surgical abortion, dismembering children, killing them by chemicals, tearing their bodies apart.

07:50

And we say, but Jeff, look over here, you don't have a ministry yet over to IVF, right? Well, try that now in another realm.

07:56

Say to speak to somebody about the issue of police injustice, right? We say to somebody over here, well, there's an organization that's trying to stop police injustice over here.

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But there's all these other issues of injustice over here. We say to that person that has an organization fighting against police injustice, hey, why aren't you doing everything?

08:14

You're inconsistent. You're not doing everything. I think it's a failed argument. I think it's a very bad argument.

08:20

Um, and so what we want to actually go after is not just this issue. IVF is go after the fundamental worldview issues involved.

08:29

Um, what's your views on say, preventive measures like contraceptive and sex education for Children to try and prevent?

08:41

Do you agree with that? So contraceptives that are essential, essentially abortifacients are this that are essentially abortifacients.

08:49

Uh, so abortifacients is an abortion drug. Um, no, no, no, not a condom.

08:54

I'm talking about the pills chemical if it's an abortifacient, right? Condoms and stuff like that.

08:59

If someone wants to wear a condom, I don't have any problem with that. I think in terms of like married couples, that's kind of weird. Uh, but in terms of, um, like someone wearing a condom is nothing sinful ultimately about that.

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But something that's an abortifacient that will ultimately kill a child. So it allows for the child to be conceived, but it forces it to essentially not be able to implant and die.

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That's an abortifacient ultimately. So we're opposed to that because we want to be consistent. Um, and so when addressing the issue of, you know, pills like that, we think it's important to talk about what's actually taking place.

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It's not really stopping the conception of a child, but stopping it from being able to thrive and implants. So we're concerned with that.

09:39

But if they think like abortion is the issue, what's the preventive measures before the abortion?

09:46

What's the preventative measure of not have it getting pregnant? It comes with like a very good way of not getting pregnant.

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What comes it? Well, it's not. It's not a way not to get pregnant. It's a way to get it. So you can still conceive with a lot of these abortifacients.

10:00

You can still conceive. It just stops the child from actually being able to grow. So it's stopping it. Um, but in terms of it's a worldview issue.

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If we have, we live in a society where we ultimately say anything goes right sexually, there are no perversions.

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There's nothing that's ultimately right or wrong. It's love is love. All is love. You can do what you like it.

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That's a worldview issue. We have to ask the question, is all love the same love? Is all sex good?

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Are there standards of what's not good in sex and human sexuality? For example, we could say, is it okay to have sex with animals?

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Is that a righteous and good thing to do? If someone says, well, I'm an atheist, but I don't believe that having sex with animals is a good thing.

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I think it's actually, you know, disgusting and not right sexuality. I would ask by what standard, what standard are you using to determine that this sexual act is not good?

10:48

And this one is good. And I would say ultimately, if you don't start from a biblical worldview, you don't have any ultimately meaningful or consistent ability to answer.

10:57

You said before, right? Yeah. And it needs to keep being said because that gets to the heart of the issue. And so when someone says, what's the preventative measure?

11:04

I think ultimately we need to have a heart change as a culture. We need, of course, no Jesus, no God. We need to begin to see each other as worthy of respect and dignity in life.

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So, for example, Errol and I, we care about each other. We do. I do. I care about Errol. We respect each other.

11:19

We have moments where we're, I do, we do like each other. We certainly have some interesting conversation and we certainly have some pretty poignant moments.

11:28

Um, I know that Jeff is out here to support his view. I'm certainly had to support my view. Uh, and they're going to be on the opposite sides of the pole.

11:36

Uh, and you know, I respect Jeff, uh, not only for what he's he's done here, but also, you know, for his kick ass, uh, kata at the

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Empire Nationals. Uh, that was freaking insane. Oh my God. I have to show you some other ones.

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That was like, that was, I actually, I like my other ones better. But getting back to the issue and he discusses consistency.

11:58

So let's throw consistency on the table. Okay. So now that everyone is familiar with who

12:03

Jocelyn is, if Jocelyn and I were to go to, and we'll suppose you're on a clinic, you saved a baby from an abortion clinic.

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And Jocelyn and I step in there and say, Jeff, we want to adopt this child. Your answer would be. So if we're talking fundamentally about the preservation of life, right?

12:22

Right. We're talking about the preservation of life. And I have a moral dilemma, right? I like, for example,

12:27

I don't, I love and respect you. Uh, but I don't agree with your, your choices sexually, right?

12:32

You're really, and you know that and you disagree with me. Right. So I think that I would want you to know

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God and know his ways and live in a more harmonious way. Right. However, you also have a dilemma where there's the issue of preservation of life itself.

12:48

And you put me in a moral dilemma and you say, it's either baby die or it goes over here with a gay couple or something like that.

12:53

Right. I would say, I'm going to go, I'm going to go for the preservation of life every time when it comes down to the moral dilemma of preserving life, because I have to weigh in the balance.

13:04

What's more important at the moment and just hope and pray that not only you and Jocelyn come to have your eyes open to a harmonious relationship, those sorts of things, but also for that child.

13:15

I want the preservation of life. That's what I would always want. But in terms of policy and in terms of how we think about it as a society, we have to ask the question, is it right to ask a child to grow up in a home guaranteed not to have a mother or a father in terms of, um, of a father, male, a mother, you're asking

13:34

Children to be guaranteed to be raised in a home without a mother or a father. I think that that's something we need to consider as a community, as a society is the right to put

13:44

Children in that situation. I will actually give you that example. And because this is a very personal friend of mine.

13:50

Okay. She transitioned 20 years ago. Before she transitioned, she went to China.

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She adopted two little girls to save them from the China's one girl only family policy.

14:03

Horrible. Yeah. Okay. So she adopted these two girls. You say she you're talking about someone that was a male, somebody who used to be male, who transitioned into into a female.

14:12

What does that mean? Transitioned from your perspective. What's that mean? Okay, I'll give you the medical perspective and I'll give you this woman's perspective is that she was born with her identity not congruent with her physical presentation.

14:25

Okay, so you're talking about biologically speaking, he was a male biologically, scientifically for for biology and for your objective vocabulary.

14:34

Objectively. Okay, for your vocabulary. Yes, he was born male. And then for the context of the conversation after the transition, we'll now refer to a sheep.

14:43

Can you describe what you mean by transition? Do you mean there was a transition that he biological male underwent an entire physical therapy mutilation?

14:53

If you want to call it that, I'm not gonna call it mutilation because I know this woman and I know that this is the biggest, most liberating thing that she's done with and I don't mean in any way to be hurtful, but I mean intensive.

15:02

Let's talk about what's facts and objective vocabulary. Okay, I would ask that you use mine. So there's mutilation that was involved.

15:08

But if we were to look biologically at this person today and put it under a microscope, is it biologically a male or a female?

15:15

Biologically, objectively, there's no it to it. This woman is a very respected woman in her community.

15:21

She's also a pilot. She's an airline pilot. Okay, the two daughters, but you're shifting no arrow.

15:26

You're shifting. No, I asked you a question about objectively. Okay, all right. The two daughters that she raised on her own both now have a full boat scholarship to Cambridge, one for music and one for English.

15:38

What's it have to do with the biology? Exactly. Jeff, what does it have to do with the biology?

15:43

Nothing. I asked you about raised two beautiful Children. Both of them are prodigies. Good.

15:49

Okay, but I asked you the question about by we're on a biology and you're shifted now to what she's done with what you say she's done with her her

15:55

Children. I just made my point, which is admirable. Doesn't matter. No, I asked you about biology and this biologically speaking.

16:01

What is the biology? Is it still male speaking out of passion? I know. I know. And you know that I know your passion.

16:07

But what is the biological position? If we were to look objectively, scientifically, the biology is still that of a male, right?

16:16

No, the biology has been changed by man to that of a female. So that's that's literally biologically impossible.

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You're not going to accept that because it's biologically impossible. It has her biology.

16:28

When I say it, I mean her biology, the chromosomes, the DNA still male. It doesn't matter.

16:33

It doesn't matter. And I think that's the point in the DNA of somebody with a cleft palate.

16:39

Okay, what do you say? Cleft palate chromosomes in the jeans. That's a category error.

16:46

You're talking. It's a complete category. What would you say to the woman? And I could show you the video. Well, what would you say to the woman who believes that she's a cat?

16:55

I think they're very educational. I think that they kind of bring these issues to the forefront. They bring christianity to recognize that they are going to be resisted.

17:05

They're going to be resisted with reason, not just mine. Uh, you know, Matt Dilla, honey.

17:11

Well, when you when you when you hear that right there and and this we allow each other to say the hard things to each other because we both claim to love truth.

17:19

When you see someone like Carol say, you know, we're going to resist him with reason. But that's not what you just saw.

17:24

You didn't see reason there. You saw someone that is trying to essentially going to cabbage on a full bus.

17:30

No, no, we weren't talking about what the parent did for the Children. We're talking about biologically speaking, what objectively, scientifically with rationality and logic.

17:39

What is the the gender of this person who mutilated themselves? And I think you would find factually, reasonably, biologically, scientifically.

17:49

It's a male. I don't want to talk about the beer. I mean, it's possibly that gender is fluid.

17:57

Sure. So even though it's even though you you have your personal truth,

18:03

I feel like he has his personal truth to it and it is a lot of it. Even though you the problem is sometimes on both sides, you state, you say fact, fact, fact when it is a lot of his opinion.

18:13

Well, no, this was this was a fact and it can't be refuted narrow. Carol is not trying to refute it. He's just saying what

18:18

I think what she did with her Children is an amazing thing. So for example, if someone to say gender is fluid, I would say is age fluid.

18:24

So if I told you today that I'm 75 years old, is it true because I believe it? No, factually, objectively, scientifically, it's not true.

18:32

If I told you, if I told you I was, if I told you I was, I was, I was feline, I was a cat.

18:37

Yeah, but that's different. How's it different? It's a whole different species. It's identity though.

18:42

But I mean, if someone delivers the cat, that's their business as well. But would you believe them that they're a cat? I mean, if they, if they, if they said to me, would you call me, would you call me pebbles?

18:51

I probably would because that's what they want and it's not. But are they a cat? Do I think they're? Yeah, probably not.

18:57

No. Yeah, there you go. So if I'm a male and I say that I'm a woman now, am I a woman? Do I think?

19:03

Yeah. Well, you're estrogen levels and you've, you've gone for a transition of, of, of, of, of generals and stuff like that.

19:09

I'm biologically a male. I'm happy to see you. I don't know the science behind it, but I'm happy so. And that shows, I think the importance of the discussion is the

19:16

Christians are the ones that are saying what we need to look at rationality and science and we need to look at reason and we need to look at DNA and chromosomes.

19:24

We need to look at objective truth here. And what you see on the other side is people saying, yeah, but it's more about feelings and emotions and what do

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I want for myself? And I think that we have to come to a place, come to grips with the fact that one side is speaking about objective science and reason and one side is talking about emotions and feelings.

19:41

But then some people would say like your faith is an emotion and feeling. No, certainly emotions and feelings to faith, but that comes on both sides.

19:49

Both sides are full, are full of faith commitments. So for example, it just, I'm going to let you get to your point, but we've got to wrap this up.

19:57

So there's a couple of questions. Uh, what you see like with his certain, maybe political ideas as well, someone who knows

20:03

Jeff a lot, would you think of his sort of brand of Christianity? Um, his brand of Christianity, it kind of gets to the point where it can be scary.

20:12

Uh, it can literally be frightening. Uh, when you think about how that brand of Christianity had it applied to law and had it applied to cultural norm, where would that leave me?

20:26

Where would that leave Jocelyn? Where would that leave almost a quarter of the population of the United States?

20:31

You know, do we get excised and put back into a corner somewhere? Uh, there are some, there are some who are even more extreme than Jeff, and Jeff was accused of it, but I denounced the article just as much as he did, uh, in that he was campaigning to make abortion a capital crime.

20:49

Um, you know, well, what's the solution? If that was to be, if that was to be applied, if abortion was to stop right now as we speak, first of all, what do we do with those children?

21:01

What do we do with them? Oh, you're asking me? So if we were to, no more abortion on the average, 200 ,000

21:09

Children a day to the population. Is that the number? I have to look that up. It's a year.

21:14

Okay. A year. Yeah. 200 ,000 Children a year. We're gonna add to America's population. What do we do with them? Love them.

21:20

Care for them. Take care of them. I don't think we should kill them. If that's what you mean. What will you do with the Children?

21:26

I don't think they should die. I don't think we should take Children who are poor, who are disabled. I don't think we should say, well, you're not worthy of life.

21:32

You should die. I don't think we should kill the poor kids. I don't think we should kill people to have a hard, hard time in life.

21:38

Um, I just, we disagree with each other, but I don't think you just deserve to die. The questions that are gonna make you think so having ended abortion because you wanted to end abortion.

21:48

Now, what do we do about the illegitimate abortions? What do we do about the back door abortions? What do we do about the back alley abortions in the closed down movie theaters?

21:56

What do we do about those? Well, okay, I'm gonna answer the question this way. So I know where we're standing together. Okay, to see if we have any common ground here.

22:03

Would you be in agreement with laws that protected people who were engaging in violent assaults that made it easier for them and safe for them to engage in that practice?

22:14

Would you want laws that protect people who rob banks because they might hurt themselves? Okay, you're arguing post born.

22:21

No, I'm saying I'm talking about, I'm talking about principles in principle. What you're saying is that people are gonna commit these.

22:27

I'm not saying anything in principle. I'm asking. Okay, let me answer that. What do we do once abortion is illegal? What do we do about the back alley clinics?

22:35

If it's criminalized, if it's criminalized, if abortion is criminalized and we see consistently the murder of a child as the murder of a child, then we have those people are engaged in such a practice bought before court to face a judge in the same way a mother who's killed her five year old or a father who's killed his 10 year old or a person who's paid as an assassin to kill people.

22:55

Okay, but in this situation we don't have one deceased life. We have two baby and mother.

23:02

Now you're going into if the mother dies going into consequence of what you want to happen. So this is my answer.

23:08

I don't think you caught it. Have you looked at the consequence of what you want? Yes. And I absolutely thought through it.

23:13

Absolutely. So that's why I asked you because I don't think you quite caught the question I gave you. How do you feel about legislation that would protect and um they would protect people who are engaging in bank robbery.

23:25

So the argument is this people are going to engage in bank robbery and assault. Even if it's illegal, even if you criminalize robbery, it does answer because watch even if you criminalize robbery, people are still going to commit robberies and assaults.

23:39

So let's make safe and legal circumstances for people who rob banks because they're going to do it anyways.

23:44

Errol, what I would say and what you would say is they still need to face justice because assault and robbery are immoral.

23:51

And if you say, what are you gonna do about all the back alley abortions of mothers who kill their Children and maybe even injure themselves?

23:57

I would say I want to care for those women. I want to love them. I want them to know Jesus. But listen, sin has consequences.

24:03

If a mother, if a mother dies because she tries to kill her child, sin has consequences. Sin has consequences there.

24:11

And see, here's the thing, Jeff, when you start arguing law, you have to get away from the concept of sin. Really?

24:17

So you don't believe law has a moral basis? I believe that arguing law has to be done with with historical law.

24:24

So which history is that the history is a history and social and social convention of Germany died before Roe v.

24:32

Wade. The history of the babies and the women who were mutilated before Roe v. Wade. Because why is that a problem? Unsafe?

24:38

Why is mutilating a baby a problem in the womb? Is that a bad thing? That's not my argument. Okay, I did not say that.

24:44

It was okay. So when you say, and here's where we find common ground, Jeff, we do want to find a solution to this.

24:50

We do want to feed somewhere in this big gray area in the middle where I stand in the black corner and you stand in the white corner.

24:57

You know, when I got my little white belt on, you got your black belt on. There is somewhere in the middle. There is some kind of a solution somewhere where we can offer some hope to some of these women who feel like they don't have any other option but to abort.

25:11

Yeah. And I have talked to some of these women who feel like they have no other option but to abort, you know?

25:17

Yeah, I know. I know. And this is this is one of the interesting things. You good? I think just that I that I do, that I do respect.

25:26

Thanks. Thank you guys. God bless you guys. Thanks. Let's finish conversation.

25:31

We're doing it for the cameras anyways. Um, so okay, we've talked about this before, but like there are moments where I hear the things that you're saying and I think, why is

25:46

Errol, why is he out here? Why is he standing here? Because you'll you'll grant the sorts of things that you just like you do.

25:53

Like, I don't want these abortions to happen. I don't want these women to have to do that. You've said things like that before, but I don't want your solution either.

25:59

But I want a better solution, but I don't want yours. But you'll acknowledge that that's where our difference is going to lie. But you'll acknowledge that it is the killing of a human being even in the womb.

26:07

I don't want to acknowledge that you did. I think we have you before acknowledging that rebirth and that's where you and I are going to have.

26:13

So why is it a problem though? If they if they're doing it, why would you want to I am passionate about personhood both in here and at IVF.

26:20

If you were to show at IVF, I'd kind of protest you just as hard. Wait a second. So you're, you just said you're passionate about personhood as in not granting it to a preborn child.

26:31

So, so you don't. So why are you, why are you protesting IVF then? I don't protest

26:36

IVF. I support IVF 100%. So you do. Okay. So you do support. I protest you. You protest me.

26:42

I protest you not showing. Right. Okay. So well, we're getting there. I'm protesting you.

26:47

Christianity, right? Right now. I know you saw the episode. Marcus did. He told me all about it. We were in Kauai. We actually saw it.

26:53

Yeah, we saw it. And hey, I got to say something to you. I have one beef with you about it. A lot of stuff you said in there.

26:59

I thought that's a good point. Okay. Um, but one beef with you is you do these things there and it kills me when you do it because you've done it a few times where you'll say things like, and then jeff ran away or then jeff jeff hasn't showed up since I use this argument and you said that in your documentary.

27:14

I went to Kauai. I went back. I went to Kauai. But you say things like that to give the and you didn't come back to rights and say, you know, you're trying to do it to get the impression that somehow like you use an argument that scared us away.

27:27

And you know, that's not the truth. I had stuff to do. I'm not gonna confess that it's not the truth. I'm not gonna confess.

27:34

It's not a peril. You know, I'm not a documentarian. I just play one on Youtube. Yeah, I know.

27:39

You know, well, in my real world, I fix the internet for people so that they can keep watching their porn in the middle of the night.

27:45

I'm not gonna tell you who my employer is, but you know, it is what it is. That's what I do in the middle of the night. That's why

27:50

I'm out here during the day. Okay. But you and I, I mean, we're gonna continue to have this, this passion.

27:58

Uh, and you are going to continue to call out atheism for what it is. I'm going to continue to call out christianity for what it is.

28:04

Yeah, that's just what keeps this world spinning on an even level. But I don't want this.

28:10

It is round. So that's not flat. If we didn't do what we did, jeff, the world was flat. I'm just saying.

28:16

So, um, and there wouldn't be satellites and then I'd be out of a job. You'd be out of a job because no satellite. That's right.

28:22

Oh boy. We could probably have a lot of fun together talking about flat earth stuff. So, but like, okay, look,

28:28

I know we both acknowledge the collision between us and the difficulties and the, you know, the contradictions in the arguments.

28:34

We both recognize that. But you know, I just want to reaffirm what I've said to you a million times. Like my, my concern,

28:40

Errol is not just for the debate between us, but my concern is for you. It is. You have no reason to have any concern for me, but I was,

28:47

I was liberated and I think, you know, that you'll probably think on this for the rest of your life. You were liberated by becoming a christian.

28:55

I know what you were liberated from. You were liberated by becoming a christian. I was liberated by disavowing faith.

29:01

Neither of us will understand why the other was. But why do you feel like, why do you feel liberated? What?

29:07

Okay. Can I just get, I'll give you something to shoot at. I'll throw it out. I dealt with. Okay. Okay. For all the suicidal ideations

29:13

I dealt with because I didn't think that I would ever be right with God. And I knew I was already hell bound. I knew I couldn't be saved.

29:19

Why? Because that's what I was being fed. Who told you that? Christianity. No, no, no, no.

29:25

The Bible doesn't, the Bible doesn't teach that. That's literally a contradiction of everything the Bible says. How could you have gotten that?

29:31

Who told you? Who told you that Jesus doesn't forgive you of all your sins? Christians. I don't believe that,

29:37

Errol. I don't believe it. I don't believe a pastor. I don't believe a pastor ever told you that Jesus won't forgive your sins.

29:43

There are pastors out there that preach that. Who told you that? Have you listened to the stuff that Steve says? Steve.

29:49

Steve Brown. Oh, on the sidewalk. He would never say

29:54

Jesus won't forgive you of your sins. He'd never, he doesn't believe that. No. The thing is he applies these consequences to it.

30:00

He applies this whole thing. Well, you have to repent of, you know, in my case, I would have to repent of Jocelyn.

30:06

No, no, not, not, not just that. It seems the thing, and I want you to hear this and I don't, I don't want to interrupt you, but I just want,

30:12

I want you to hear this. Errol, it's not just sexual sin. It's, it's our whole lives.

30:18

It's everything. It's the way we think about God, the world, the way we don't love God, why we don't love each other. It's not just sexual sin.

30:24

It's not, that's one area of life. I'm mixed up. And it's one area that when you do turn from that, they, they come in on you like this.

30:33

It's damaging. Okay. And I was, I was called out and I was thrown out of a church because they found out that the girlfriend that I had at the time had transitioned.

30:42

Okay. So can I ask you, it was physically unrecognizable as having transitioned. Can I, can I ask you this then?

30:49

Just, and again, you don't have to agree with it. You didn't have to debate about it. Just, just a thought experiment. Um, if something is the truth, if it's just, if it just happens to be the truth, is it, do

31:01

I, do I get to reject it and turn away from it just because it hurts my feelings or it alters the course of my life?

31:07

I mean, shouldn't we love truth because of the nature of truth? First, you have to define truth. My definition of truth is something that is going to establish a pattern of predictability.

31:17

Okay. Okay. So help me, help me with that again. I want to make sure I understand what you believe. You're going to show up here wearing a leather bracelet because you've shown up wearing a leather bracelet.

31:26

You're that predictable. You wear that leather bracelet every time you're wearing a leather. I just found it again. I thought I lost it for a while.

31:32

But how, but that, but that, see that I may, I may not next week. That's the example given. When you don't next week,

31:38

I will recognize that as the truth also, that you're not wearing a leather bracelet. So your truth is what's objective. What's in, what's in front of you?

31:44

My truth is what I'm going to observe with five senses. I gotcha. What I'm going to see, what

31:49

I'm going to hear, what I'm going to feel, what I'm going to taste, what I'm going to touch what I'm going to hear. Can I ask you, can

31:55

I ask you then, given that that's your standard empiricism, what's observable, repeatable,

32:04

I can, I can see it. Then how do you, how do you match that epistemology, that view of how

32:10

I know something to be true with say the argument made a little bit ago about a person who transitions. What you can sense, what you can see.

32:18

So you see the, I don't bother answering that. Do you see that, how you fall off? Yes, I see how you fall off. You say I'm an empiricist. That's why I'm a shattered man.

32:24

That's it, you just nailed it Jeff. That's exactly why I'm a shattered man. When you get to that argument, one of two things is going to happen.

32:30

You are going to convert somebody to Christianity or you're going to shatter their faith. But I want you to know God. I don't want to know

32:36

God. And I won't. And that's the heart of it. That's the heart of it. And you are going to have to deal with this for the rest of your life.

32:42

That's why I want you to know it's rebellion. Yes it is, but you are talking to a shattered man. So it's rebellion against God.

32:48

Yes, you are talking to a shattered man who was shattered by your peers. No listen. So Christianity owns to a shattered soul just as much as Christianity owns to a saved soul.

32:58

You're angry. I'm not angry, I'm passionate. Okay, but you are angry at the people who hurt you. No, I'm not angry at them.

33:04

Okay, you're angry at God though. I've let them go. You're angry at God though. No, I'm not angry at God. You said a moment ago you were.

33:10

No, I'm not. Okay. There was a time when I had faith that I was angry at God.

33:17

And the whole time I was angry at God, I had a bad habit of sucking on the end of a .45 caliber pistol. I was able to get away from that Jeff.

33:25

I was able to get away from that by disavowing faith. Then I didn't have to be angry at God. I didn't have to be angry at my pastors.

33:31

I didn't have to be angry at the world. So it was for the choice to be with somebody who had transitioned. No, it was for me being me.

33:39

Now I'm saying the conflict happened because you were with the person. The conflict started. Okay. With somebody who had transitioned.

33:45

And the pastors in your life tried to call you away from that lifestyle and you. Yeah, and here's the thing that you have to bear in mind

33:51

Jeff. When you mentioned the choice to transition, there are people who make the choice not to transition. Right. They eat a bullet instead.

33:58

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So where do we go with that when you're in your argument of preserving life?

34:03

We love those people. We come alongside them. We try to show them a better way. We minister to their conscience.

34:09

We minister to their needs. We care for them. We come alongside those people. And that's what drives them to kill themselves Jeff. No, I don't.

34:14

I don't believe that. I think that's a claim you're making, but I don't believe that at all. I had to go to Kentucky to go bury a woman right out of church.

34:21

She went home and she hanged herself. Yeah. I think that you asked what should we do? What I don't believe we do to any person who believes something that is not objectively true.

34:31

We don't feed into that because I'll tell you this, this is, this is true. People who have transition, people who have gone through this surgery, the suicide rates are still through the roof compared to the national average.

34:44

People who engage in this lifestyle and this behavior still have issues. You know what the percentage is? Can I just finish the thought?

34:49

Can I finish the thought? Sure. The people who are engaged in this lifestyle and even go through transition, higher instances, higher instances of quote unquote alcoholism, um, suicide, depression, those sorts of things.

35:02

The transitioning process, objectively speaking, looking at the data doesn't solve the problem because Errol, it's a problem of the heart.

35:10

It's not a problem of your body and appendages is a problem of your heart. I would have to disagree. I know that, but that's, that's, that's because you've decided that's once again going to boil down to your view versus my view, but you need it.

35:22

But here's the thing. Okay, if you are right and the world is the way that you say it is, then all of our disagreements don't matter.

35:30

Anyways, there's no justice or right ahead of any of us at all. All of this is meaningless and purposeless.

35:35

Anyway, if your view is right, if I'm right, then that comes with some serious and some serious implications and consequences.

35:43

If I'm right, that means that you truly are in the image of God, valued, worthy of dignity and love, but also you're fallen just like me before Christ and you need peace with God.

35:54

I don't need peace with God. When I walked away from God, that was the most liberating, you know,

36:01

I, you know, 30 years ago. That's a long time to have walked away. In a 30 years time,

36:06

I have not had to seek medical attention for a psychiatric issue. 30 years. And that was after a long time of therapy.

36:14

So if a person was engaged in something that you saw as immoral, right?

36:22

You believed it was a that's absolutely wrong, right? And they said that it made them happy. I'm not even gonna go into that argument.

36:30

What would you? That's not, that's not a fair argument. But that's what your argument is. That's not a fair argument because I liberated myself by disavowing and I live what

36:38

I see to be a moral life. My only motivation being on this earth is to make it a better place than it was when

36:45

I stepped foot on here. Oh, I know that's your heart. I know that. I know. But how do you know? It's gonna be a struggle for you because you're like, well, he supports, you know, the killing of babies.

36:53

You do. Yeah. Okay. No, what I support is abortion being legal. Which leads to the killing of babies.

37:00

No. Well, so does ending abortion. It's going to lead to the killing of babies. No, no, no. Ending abortion would preserve life and people who would continue to do it would be guilty.

37:10

It would not. History has showed that out. More abortions were performed when it was illegal than they are performed now.

37:18

That's not true. That is true. No, that's not true. That's that's not, it's not true. And if we ended abortion tomorrow and criminalized it, we would not be seeing over 3000 babies a day dying.

37:28

Now, if again, you ask the question when I think they would die, I think we just wouldn't see him. Right? Yeah. And I think that if if you brought up the point you did like, but jeff, they're gonna do it anyways.

37:37

You wouldn't reason that way in any other area to the other dilemma. If, if, if you criminalize the deaths of these and I'll use your your verbiage, that's fine.

37:48

If you criminalize the deaths of these babies before they're born, what happens to the dying babies after they're born?

37:54

What happens to the babies who are starving to death? What happens to the babies that are being killed by their parents? What happens to the babies who are all wrong, all awful, awful, awful, horrible things.

38:02

We don't say arrow and you wouldn't do this in any other area. Hold on, let me just finish real fast. But you wouldn't see your, but you're not consistent though because you wouldn't say in any other area.

38:11

I'm not going to be consistent. I know. There you go. There you go. No, I want to be the first to tell you that I'm not consistent. But I said that I desire to be.

38:17

But I have accepted that I cannot be consistent. Okay, then I'm, then you've granted it. So, because I think that demonstrates the point is that you're happy with hanging on to all these inconsistencies.

38:26

You're at peace with it. As a Christian, I wouldn't want to live that way. I don't want to live in a way where I, I say one thing out of one side of my mouth and I contradict with the other.

38:33

Well, I don't want to be a Christian who's at peace with having babies that are born and then die of illnesses, starvation, all of that's bad.

38:41

Yes, it is. And we need to come alongside those people and serve them and show them mercy and help them. But we don't say we don't say we don't say we don't say kill the poor kids.

38:52

We as a nation of 241 years old, if we haven't changed it by now, we're not going to. Well, we have had a successful pro life movement already in the past.

38:59

Abortifacients were very popular and Christians rose up like we are now destroyed that movement.

39:04

It's only come back again. And so this has happened before and we've won before arrow.

39:10

Well, let's see if you win again. You know, but in the midst of that, that's and we have to close with that because I am overheating.

39:17

Okay. So all right. Well, I guess you want some water. Do we have some water? I'm good. I've got to back up. All right. I got to work tonight because you know, somebody's got to keep your life going and that's me.

39:27

Okay. You know, good. Is that what you that's your that's your business? That's that's what I do. I keep people's internet on so they can go and they can comment on your live feed.

39:34

Okay, thanks. So showing apology, all the love showing all of apology as live feed followers, all the love.

39:41

Hey, I just want to say real fast, this is important. We care about arrow.

39:48

We love arrow. We respect arrow. Uh, it's important for us that if you're watching this and you're making comments, you remember that this man is worthy of our respect and our love.

39:58

That's a very, very important for us. So we'll get you in the process. Pro choices are watching. You know, this is jeff.

40:04

We do have a complicated bromance and we probably will for the rest of our days. But I do have a lot of respect and by all means go youtube empire state nationals.

40:13

you're a karate fan, jeff kicks ass. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks.