October 12, 2018 Show with Sule Prince on “The Stress of Ministry”

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Our host, Chris Arnson. Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnson, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio wishing you a happy Friday on this 12th day of October 2018 and I'm so delighted that my dear friend Dr. Tony Costa, who is professor of apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary, strongly and very highly recommended my guest today, Sule Prince or should I say Sule Prince, I apologize for that mispronunciation, Sule Prince who is the senior pastor of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

He also happens to be Dr. Tony Costa's pastor and Dr. Tony Costa in 2019, God willing, will be added to the leadership team there at Oakwood Wesleyan Church and today we are going to be discussing the stress of ministry and I'm sure every single pastor out there is going to want to hear about this topic addressed because I'm sure every pastor worth his salt is at times plagued with stress and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Sule Prince and if you could let our listeners know about Oakwood Wesleyan.

Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Well Oakwood, it's mainly I've been there for about going on six years now but the church has been around going years and I'm actually probably the youngest pastor that they have had.

The last pastor he resigned and he was about 84 years old.

Wow, well one of the things that makes this a very fascinating and unusual circumstance, in your case, is that you happen to be a Reformed Baptist and yet you are pastoring Oakwood Wesleyan Church. Tell us how that came about.

Well it's interesting, my Christian.

Upbringing is very different. I wasn't really brought up in a Christian home. If you know anything about the West Indies and their life, something that you do is grocery.

Shopping. Most of the folks that I know from the West Indies are either Plymouth Brethren or Anglican or Seventh-day Adventist, that seems to me. Yeah, Seventh-day Adventist is the biggest.

Sector. They're the number one. They knew how to have the Pentecostals and then it'll go to.

Denominations. Wow, I did not know that the Seventh-day Adventists were the largest group.

There. Yeah, they are the largest group. And it's interesting because when I was born, my mom baptized me as Anglican. And then when we came to Canada, she joined the Pentecostal Church. And then from there on, when I'm going to a seminary for a Baptist school.

The Toronto Baptist Seminary? Before that, it was Heritage.

Bible College, that Dr. Costa is also an adjunct professor there as well.

Great. So I started going there. So how, again, did you as a Reformed Baptist wind up pastoring.

A Wesleyan church? And it's very interesting because I was going to a school at that time called, you'd probably know it as Tyndale University. Yes, in fact, I've interviewed faculty members of Tyndale.

Okay, so it was a Toronto, Ontario Bible College when I went there. And I became great friends with a guy I dormed with. For two years, we didn't talk. And I met him again after two years. It'd be good for somebody to govern your church.

And then he introduced me to the Wesleyans. And from that church, they called me to be the senior pastor.

Of the church. So you were already a Reformed Baptist when they called you to be the pastor? Oh, yeah, I was very much so. Wow, that's interesting. So you have not been met with hostility or anything like that?

I get hostility on both ends. You mean on the Reformed side for being in the Wesleyan denomination?

I get looked at very weird. Why are you in a Wesleyan church? And then from the Wesleyan, they have an eye on me. So why do you go to that school called?

Well, I'm assuming, though, that the majority of response that you receive is favorable, because you're still the pastor there after six years.

I am still the pastor. The church is interesting, because remember when I talked to you about that, it's like a cultural Christianity. And that's kind of the issue that I deal with at the church, is that they are saying...

That's interesting,.

Because that seems to be in opposition even to Wesleyanism.

Definitely. But what's interesting about this church is, it's a Wesleyan church, but a lot of people, when they came to Canada, they know themselves from the West Indies, and this is the church that they come and cross my legs and say, tell me about the Wesleyan church in the background.

Well, this is the way I would answer the question when somebody in your position, if they say, tell us about the Wesleyan church. Well, you could say that John Wesley was a very close friend of George Whitefield, who happened to be a Calvinist, and this is where I pick up my story.

That's good.

All right. Well, now, as we normally do when we have first-time guests, I'd like you to give a summary of your salvation testimony. You already started it a little bit, but give us an idea of the kind of religious atmosphere you were raised in and what providential circumstances the Lord used to draw you to himself and save you.

You already mentioned that you were baptized in an Anglican church, and then your mother became Pentecostal. Do you want to address the story in more depth as far as your own personal conversion?

Yes. So, we went to a prominently Pentecostal church, West Indian. I was dragged. I would say, do you want to go to church? And I never went to church with her again, and she continued to ask. And that's how I was known within my community, and I got to the age that my parents said, leave.

And at 14 years old, I left.

Wow.

Yeah. I lived with friends I lived in. Before, my name, Sule, is a Muslim name.

Right. Why did your mom pick that name, do you know?

I think it was... In the Jamaican culture, there was a time that Christianity... Every... Like, my older brother is Marvin and Andre. So, my middle name is Ola Tunde. So, when a Nigerian hears that my name is Ola Tunde, they are convinced that I'm Nigerian.

Huh.

So, now, Sule being a Muslim name, and that's probably so funny that you have to be careful of what you name your children. Oh, yeah. Because I was actually seeking faith. Now, tell us about that. How did you hear.

About this, specifically, the Nation of Islam, which, as you know, is a completely different religion than the actual Quranic Islam? Islam, yes. Well, my brother was in the music.

Business. Now, if you do any research, my brother's name is Marvin Prince. He came out with a reggae singer, a white reggae singer, and he made big... And a little kid. I would, on my own, and with my other brother, who herself...

And I liked what it sounded like. Well, one day... And this guy would actually come to me every day, every lunch. I mean, he'd come to me. I said, I don't want to... Actually, what I ended up doing is...

Deeply... And he knew so much of what he was talking about, that question that I... And he kept... Studies, and he gave me this verse in the Bible. It took about a year. Offered the man, if he came...

That he chose that verse, because that's what I wanted to do. But yet... Yeah, I'll be honest with you. Some people say, oh, no, he could never be a pastor. I remember what he did back in the day. It filled out his house.

So tell us about the point where you realized that you, indeed, had to stop riding the fence, that you had to just cry out to the Lord for mercy and salvation, where you truly knew that you needed to identify truly, publicly, as a believer, and you were baptized,.

And all that kind of thing. So it's interesting, because in that year that we had with this individual, the Bible... And he was young. If I were to think about a year apart, he knew far faster than the Bible.

And it took us about a year of being trained. And I believe that how you start off, that you have to share the... Then to share... Girlfriend brought her. We were on the news. We were doing youth crusades ourselves.

And where I lived at that time, I'm preaching one day. We do three days of sessions. And as I was preaching, a man was just walking his dog in the park. Careful what God could do in the... Amen. Know what God has done in their life.

I know what God has done in my life. If it's not you.

Yeah. Well, now tell us about how you realized that God placed a call upon your life to enter into the pastoral ministry. Now, that's very interesting,.

Because my whole desire was not necessarily pastoral ministry. I had the desire to... Society, people, but... The day I was walking, and... Job that I've ever... In fact, I never... I feel like a doctor...

To be, in a sense, a pastor that... That are struggling with Christianity and the ideas of Jesus Christ.

Now, when in your journey, as a Christian, did you first come to discover... And how did you first come to discover the doctrines of sovereign grace or reformed theology? And how did you come to embrace them and so on?

You know what? It was probably my first year of Bible college. I was meeting a lot of people, all that. And it was really... How do we come to God? Well, Jesus made more sense. Every night, spends about...

Committed, because she doesn't want to die and go to hell. Wow. You see the bondage of that mode of thinking, that my salvation is in God's hands.

Amen.

Know that we are imperfect.

And of course, many of our Wesleyan, Arminian brethren will say that our theology, the reformed faith, Calvinistic faith, doctrines of sovereign grace, however you want to phrase it, is a blueprint for licentiousness.

They think that we are teaching, because we believe in the perseverance of the saints, and that involves the fact that a truly reborn individual who's born from above, that that person could not ever lose his or her salvation.

They think that means that we can make a profession of faith, get saved, and then live like the devil himself for our entire lives, which may be decades, and then die and we'll still be in heaven. And many, unfortunately, evangelicals, modern evangelicals, do believe that, but they are not Calvinists.

They seem to blur the distinction between the erroneous or even heretical version of eternal security with perseverance and preservation of the saints. So we have to make sure that we let our Wesleyan, Arminian brethren and others know that we agree with them, that if somebody is living according to the world, flesh, and the devil unrepentantly, that they are not a child of God, that a good tree bears good fruit.

Am I right?

Definitely. When we talk about that, that's not what...

In fact, if Paul did not believe what we believe as Reformed Christians, that would not be a built-in response to his teaching. That would not be an automatic response by his critics, because they obviously were misunderstanding something that involved salvation being entirely of grace.

Well, this is such a pleasure to have you on the program. I'm looking forward to future interviews with you because of the fascinating story behind your salvation and your pastorate. But you recommended that we discuss today the subject of the stress of ministry, and if you could tell me why that immediately came to your mind when you were invited to be on the program.

Because I am a pastor. That's the truth. I want to give today pastors hope, but I also want to be realistic. I've been in the ministry, and I know this feeling because I have been exactly there when you are so burnt out that you are doing through it, but you...

In fact, I want to pick up where you left off right after this commercial break.

Okay.

If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C-H-R-I-S-A-R-N-Z-E-N at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I could readily understand why this topic would lend itself to pastors specifically wanting to remain anonymous, or perhaps even congregation members who are asking a question about their own pastor that is showing signs of being stressed out.

Yes, of course, you can remain anonymous, but if it's not a personal and private question, if it's a general question on the subject or even on theological matters or other pastoral matters, since our guest today is a pastor, please just give us at least your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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We are now back with our guest, Pastor Sulay Prince, who is the pastor, the senior pastor of Oakwood Wesleyan Church in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. We are discussing the stress of ministry. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com, chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

We do have a few listener questions already, but I want you to get a little bit more deeper into our subject matter at hand before we begin taking some of our listeners. If you could, this might sound like a no-brainer question.

It may even sound to some that it's silly that I'm even asking it, but I think that there may be different definitions that people have in their minds when it comes to stress, and since stress is the main theme of our interview today, I would like you to define stress exactly what you're speaking about.

Well, when I speak about overwhelming feeling that almost debilitates you when you look in the Bible and say anxiety and doctor and hear that, I'm talking about that kind of stress on you that it's a feeling that you can't continue on.

It prevents you from doing it.

Now, what do you think are the most common reasons why pastors get overstressed or stressed out and include some of those things that actually involve your own pastoral life?

Sure, and I'll definitely speak for my own pastoral life and also what I see, and I think there's two main facets that cause a pastor stress, and the first one is, I would say, the expectation that people put on expectation.

I am expected to be somebody is sick, it happens. Birthday party anniversary for my family. Three birthday parties I have to attend to truly decide. Listen, I will attend this one, but second time within one day to be there about the need, the fact that I need help.

Who is willing to be my feet? Who's ministry with me? I will disappoint some people because I cannot be every place at one time. And after I preach, I mean, you need to do it by this date. It's actually shocked me.

Pastor, you're the pastor, so this is the stress. And then the second facet that stresses, they have, I went to this church last week, and the worship is, preaching is great. That's the way, well, what are you saying here?

Also, those are stresses that really come upon a pastor. And you know what? And then you have your family, you have a wife, you may have, you do the mom, you're facing backwards. And the child said, because we only see your back.

Ah, could you imagine the feeling? And he was actually church when I used to get up in the morning and get ready. The first thing, my daughter, I say, bye, Daddy, because her assumption was I was leaving my family church on you.

You have your expectations.

We have a listener in Cork, Ireland, Mary in Cork, Ireland, who says, I am aware that many pastors are either burnt out or on their way for a burnout, and many are leaving the ministry for a nine to five job.

Surely, because this is a high calling, should they not be taking care of better as they are pouring themselves out for their flock? My question is, can their days off be increased from one day off to a week to two days off?

Can their vacation days be increased in order for their ministers to be refreshed? And let's see here. Whoops, I just accidentally deleted Mary's question. Hold on a second, Mary. And by the way, while I'm retrieving this, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

If anybody else wants to ask a question, and please give us your first name, city and state and country of residence if you live outside the USA and only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter.

Here we go again, Mike. Can their vacation days be increased from one day off a week to two days off a week? Can their vacation days be increased in order for these matters to be refreshed and replenished?

Why can't this be reviewed? I think it is a serious issue that needs to be addressed. Yes, obviously, the actual specific details would be different from congregation to congregation, but the principle of making sure that a pastor is well-rested, that's vital, because everyone's going to lose if your pastor's not well-rested.

Definitely. And I did experience that. I would go from Monday to Monday. There were so many needs. When I started preparation...

Wow, that must be a large congregation. I mean...

No, it's not. It's an old congregation. And also, you're attached to the family.

Right, yeah.

Well, if their family dies, and so I was doing a lot of funerals, which also played on my own psyche in itself. I had to be able to find a way to process all that I was seeing and all that I was doing.

Realize that a minister, yeah, he's there for you. I believe that pastors should. And, you know, as I do it, I'll do as much as I can. But if there are days off that I can... One thing that I learned, and I would tell your listeners who are in the ministry, don't feel guilty to turn off your cell phone.

And many may not... Everybody needs to get a cell phone. They'll call my house. They'll send me an email. And when you're meeting the needs of a bigger congregation, you'll see that you are always meeting people's needs.

Yeah, there's an old saying that someone may be a jack of all trades, but master of none. And at the same time, I think that relates to if you are always available to all people at all times, you will actually be helping nobody eventually, because you are going to be overworked.

You're not going to be able to concentrate on the specific individuals who you are with, ministering to. And so people have to remember... Because I even know, in my decades as a Christian since the 1980s, I know that I've been mad when my pastors were not available for me in my own particular needs.

I got jealous of the attention that other members got, and sinfully perhaps even spoke about these pastors behind their backs out of my anger. But we have to remember, as congregation members, that you know yourselves that you could not be on call for every individual that you know to be, even as a brother in Christ, to be at the side of your best of friends.

If all of them were insisting that you run to their side and help them through some kind of a trial physically there with them, you know that you couldn't do it. So we have to remember that a pastor is not superhuman.

Exactly. And for some reason, I don't think people realize that when they call a pastor, they call that the pastor has taken for the day.

They think the pastor works one hour a week, one hour on Sunday week.

One hour an hour, yeah, just preaching. When he gets up there, that's all he does.

Yeah, I have a friend, the woman who led me to Christ, one of her sons who has been coming to church every week for nearly a year now, thanks be to God, he's not a believer, he would admit that, but he is coming and he's faithfully coming with his children.

And I remember him asking me, does your pastor get paid? And I said, yes, of course. Why? I said, what do you mean why? Well, he only works like one hour a week, doesn't he? I'm like, are you kidding me?

He works harder than I do, longer hours than I do, because he is always bouncing around, doing all kinds of things, visiting people in the hospital and trying to rescue people out of a crisis that they're in and all kinds of things.

You know, people don't realize in the old shepherding that 90 of pastors work between 55 to 75 hours per week.

Wow.

And 90 feel fatigued and worn out. I don't realize that, in the States, they would call it child protection. And this went on for three weeks, about four. And the individual that I was working with, remember, as I'm dealing with this, I still have a sermon to prepare.

I still have other people in the church to attend to in their needs as well.

And, of course, there are horrible pastors out there that many of them aren't even regenerate Christians that may only work one hour a week, if you could even call it work. You know, who knows what some of these pastors and mainline denominations do.

And I'm not saying that they're all working one hour a week, either. They may be doing many things, because even some of the liberal apostate churches are at least rolling up their sleeves and feeding the poor and things like that.

But still, we're not denying that there are bad pastors out there that never should have answered a call from a church to be their undershepherd to begin with. But the dedicated man of God is typically doing a lot more than what people are seeing.

And also, isn't this the very reason that God, in his infinite wisdom, breathed into his scriptures the fact that there are to be a plurality of elders and also a diaconate? Those are the reasons that those things exist.

Yes, and I think that it would be helpful. And that's what Jeff was saying. You can't do all this by yourself. You need others to come in and help. People actually think that the minister is going to build the church.

They get a new pastor, and okay, the church is going to expand now, because he's going to bring in the people. Wrong thinking is the path to teach and train the people and bring in the people. The stress of a pastor, people are minimized.

Sometimes I am resting over a couple days down on paper yet, because I want to be true to God's word. I want the scripture time. That takes a lot of time.

Yeah. Um, we have an anonymous listener who says, what published resources have you utilized yourself to combat the depression and distraction of stress in your own pastoral ministry?

Well, I know me. There are certain books that I have read, and that was one of the texts that they used. Yeah, it's very good. When I go back to this idea of the book that I read, which was very good, called the Rima, you know, and this is another, when I talk about the expectation, one thing that I would want that church that has all the buses, and then you go to the little small place called Utah.

In fact, you may chuckle off the air when you hear the next ad, but when you said guitars and lights, you're going to immediately know what I'm talking about with this next ad from Waiting River Baptist Church that you're going to hear.

But if anybody would like to join us on the air, this is our longer than normal break because Grace Life Radio in Lake City, Florida airs their own commercials and public service announcements to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio to Lake City, Florida.

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