Are People Who Are "Wounded" by the Church Self-Centered Church Shoppers Who Didn't Get Their Way?

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The Wrath of God and Judgment on Hearers

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of almighty God is hanging over our head. They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us.

Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Church Hurt, Victim Culture, and Church Shoppers

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask. We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we will seek to answer the age-old question, are people who are wounded by the church self-centered church shoppers who didn't get their way?

Now Tim, I think normally whenever someone's talking about anyone hurting anyone when it comes to the church and its members, normally it's the other way around where people are typically talking about how the church hurt them.

So it might be kind of surprising for some people to hear us talking about people actually hurting the church. So maybe let's just start by just addressing the title question head-on, and hopefully that'll kind of get people up to speed with what we're even talking about, because I don't think most people even really have a category for church members being anything other than victims by the church's hands.

So why don't you go ahead and answer that question for us. Are people who are wounded by the church self-centered church shoppers who didn't get their way?

Yeah, when you think about a question like that, we're obviously living in a victim society right now. So right now, pretty much it's very popular in the broader evangelical world to talk about deconversion stories and about church abuse stories, and the church hurt me, and I need to take some time and detox myself from the church and all this stuff, and take a break in order to heal, and I just am damaged and broken and all this stuff.

And so the standard way that most people think about this kind of topic is fundamentally to think about the church always being the one who's at fault in these kind of interactions. And then you combine that with just the standard right now pop psychological approach to victimization, and essentially you believe the victim, you don't shame the victim, you don't blame the victim, and everything else.

And so as you think about something like that, when someone shares their experience, their experience has to be validated, it has to be affirmed, it has to be basically considered to be true. And so you basically have a narrative that is used to handle every single conceivable interaction between church members and church leaders and church as an organization, or however you want to say.

And typically the standard way that we view most of these encounters is to basically view them as the church is fundamentally at fault in every single one of these encounters, and there's little to no tolerance for the opposite being actually considered as a valid option.

Meaning, you know, it might very well be that you're in an environment where, due in large part I think to just the prevalence of megachurch culture and secret sensitive movement and church shopper phenomenon in general, it might be that there's a wide variety of situations where you have self-centered church shopper people who really conceive of the church as being fundamentally all about them and their own desires and their own wants, and then they go into a church situation and basically try to impose all of their self-centered preferences on the church, and then when the church fails to live up to their expectations, then they basically cop a victim persona and basically then adopt all the normal posture that comes with victimization.

But I think it all kind of depends on where your location is in large measure, so depending on what kind of church background you're from. But in standard faithful church that's doing expositional preaching and doing its best to try to have some sort of regenerate church membership and not just filled with all the programs and everything else, I think those kind of churches by and large, they get a lot of people who come in and they're coming from a church shopper background, and very often it is the case that you just have self-centered people coming into the church and causing a lot of problems with their own selfishness, and that's not an uncommon phenomenon at all.

But then in different kind of traditions, it could be different stories, so there isn't a one-size-fits-all approach to who's to blame in any one of these encounters. But right now, though, if you even ask the question, maybe it's, is it just the church member?

It's inappropriate to even ask at this point.

Yeah, big time. You cannot even hint at the church member being involved having any fault in the issue. Otherwise, you'll be labeled as an insensitive monster, right?

Right, but I could tell you story after story after story of situations I know where I just change the details a little bit and not give out any names, but I can just tell you story after story, situation after situation, where you have church members who just, they are coming into a church situation, or they've been there for a while, and they get their heart set on something, and they're just unwilling to consider the possibility that they might just be being entitled brats about something.

So I'm just reminded of a situation where a girl felt like the Lord was telling her to lead a female Bible study at the church. And it was a scenario where she really felt like God was telling her this, somehow, in her feelings.

And the problem was, I mean, it's just like, she's just not the kind of girl that anyone at the church would think, would even want her to do a Bible study, so no one showed up, right? So no one showed up to her Bible study, because no one recognized her as having the gift of teaching, or being in any way someone that individuals would want to go to for that.

But then no one showed up, and then it's just like, then she feels like she's hurt by the church, because church leadership didn't want to promote it. But it's just like, you know, you're not someone that the leadership at that church felt like was qualified to be in a teacher role.

And what do you do in that kind of scenario if you're church leaders? You just let everyone start a Bible study, you promote it, you basically put pressure on everyone to go to it when you don't think you're going to be getting anything good.

And then no one really wants to show up, and then it's, well, it's your fault for not supporting me. And then you fall into the standard victim narrative that you've been hurt by the church and abused by the church.

And it's just like, hey, maybe it's a little more complicated than that. And maybe God didn't tell you that. Maybe you made that up. And maybe you should become teachers because you'll receive a stricter judgment.

And maybe there's qualifications for that, and maybe you don't fit. And that's leaving aside what kind of church structure you have in general, what kind of expectations you have as it relates to those kind of things.

But that kind of individual couldn't conceive of the fact that there might be any reason why the church wouldn't support that other than just them failing her and letting her down and not listening to the Holy Spirit and all that.

But I mean, that's not uncommon. That's just standard fare.

I don't know, Tim. I don't know. But to me, that just sounds like the church hurting another victim.

Yeah. Church just threw another one under the bus. I mean, refused to utilize their gifts and didn't support them and just support their sense of calling. But I mean, it's just like church is messy, man.

There's situations like that that you just like, what do you do?

Yeah, you really are caught in between a rock and a hard place. Because like you said, you either go along with it and then it goes down in flames because that's not their gifting. And so it inevitably just gets torched.

Or you say no on the front end and save all that heartache on the back end. But then you've got to deal with the, well, you don't want to support me and whatever. Or you hate women. You hate women. You don't think they need to teach no matter what.

Yeah. I mean, it's all that kind of stuff. I mean, there's just scenario after scenario that I can think of in churches I've been to and been a part of. Or the guy with an axe to grind at the church who didn't get the job that he wanted.

And now is just deeply troubled by the direction of the church. Wants to start a prayer group or whatever. But then when you let him pray one time in the congregation, he threw everyone under the bus and complained about it.

And then it's just like he wants to start a prayer group and you don't support it. And it's just like, well, I guess you're anti-prayer.

I mean, obviously you're anti-prayer. I mean, he's praying over all these issues that he sees in the church and you're trying to shut that down. Come on.

All those issues which seem to personally have affected him. But it's just like there's some, if you were to listen, you can listen to the narrative. And the Bible says the first to plead their case seems right until another one comes along to examine it.

So you can listen to those kind of narratives and it sells. And there's a market for it. There's a market to destroy the church in that kind of way and paint everyone as victims. But then the problem is you often can't tell the other side of the story.

You just can't. You can't just sit everyone down and explain this is what the thought process is. And so there's a lot of situations like that you just have to take. But then it's just one of those things where it's just a lot of times life is much more complicated than that.

And then when you have church shopper culture that essentially breeds the type of individual who thinks that the church is fundamentally all about them and supporting them and validating them and everything else.

You're in a situation where a lot of people just go from church to church until they muster up the courage to basically finally tell the church their deepest desires. And they put them out there like that dish that they labored over for 12 hours hoping that you would enjoy it kind of thing.

And it's just like, man, we can't support that. And then it's just like, how dare you? You just rejected all of me. And at that point it's just like how can they possibly face to be in your presence anymore when you just totally rejected everything.

It took them all this courage to share. But I mean there's just so many situations that I know about personally and have heard about and been in tangential ways. And it's just more complicated than that.

And there's no simple answer to that. An accusation doesn't constitute proof. And you have to hear both sides of the story. And often it's just like there's reasons why you can't share everything too.

Claims Against John MacArthur and Other Church Leaders

Yeah, I'm reminded a lot. It does seem like it is really popular to try and take down the church and try and air out the church's dirty laundry all the time. I think what comes to mind immediately is probably John MacArthur and his church.

Especially these days it seems like there's some sort of claim against them like once every three months it feels like now. And it's funny because it seems like it kind of comes from the same people over and over again.

Yeah, I mean Julie Roys is doing one a week.

Desperately hoping that something will stick to the wall. Yeah, I mean it's crazy.

What's silly about it is you have a church like that where I think he's been the pastor there for over 40 years, going on 50 years now. And it's like you can't tell me that in the course of 50 years of being a pastor and doing ministry that it's not conceivably possible that maybe perhaps there was one situation that came up along the line.

Where they could have handled it a little better if they had more information that they weren't privy to in the moment. So there's scenarios where you don't have enough information to know how to proceed.

A lot of the accusations go along those lines. And there's situations where even with the information you have you may didn't pick the wisest outcome. And it's open to criticism later on. But my goodness, in thousands and thousands of pastoral interactions over the years if you're scraping the bottom of the barrel and trying to find some sort of dirt on someone that happened 20 years ago and that's the best that you can do.

It's just like you have a problem. Right. And with individuals like Julie Roys, her agenda is she hates biblical gender roles. And John MacArthur is an example of that. And she's actively trying to destroy him for those reasons because she feels like she's a woman who's called to preach.

And he told Beth Moore to go home. And so now she doesn't like him and she's trying to figure out any way she possibly can to destroy his reputation. But those are dime a dozen. A lot of these stories you have to understand there's other agendas that are behind these things that you don't hear about.

And so you can't just take the accusation at face value. What's motivating it? And there's false accusations that come in plenty of situations. But what is it about? And often just in life it's not always about the thing that they're talking about.

It's often about something else. Like there's something else motivating it.

Accusations, False Narratives, and Functional Apostasy

Yeah. I think I've had plenty of personal interactions as well where I've met, you know, we're in a college town. So we meet new young students every year. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard them tell me that at some point in their life the church hurt them along the way.

And that's probably one of the top, you know, two or three reasons why if they aren't in church right now, that's one of the top reasons why they aren't in church right now. Some of them say, well, hey, I just haven't found a place.

But it's like, you know, they're a junior in college. And it's like, what do you mean you haven't found a place? It's been three years. But a lot of them they do say, hey, look, the church hurt me in some way.

And basically they're still not over it. And it's a weird situation to be in because as a person who's being told this, you don't really have a lot of info to go off of. And so sometimes they're ready to just like put it all out there for you.

And they kind of expect you to just form your entire opinion on the whole situation based around that. And there's been a few interactions where I've had to say like, oh, wow, you know, if that's true, that's bad.

But, you know, I don't want to like comment because I don't know everything. I wasn't there. I wasn't there for the conversations. And that's kind of like, they'll kind of take that as like an assault, you know, on themselves.

Me just saying like, hey, I'm going to kind of try and stay neutral here and say, you know, like if that is exactly what happened, then yeah, that's really bad.

That's you re-victimizing them in the moment, you know. Right, right.

And so it seems like it's really popular to have an experience like that. And there's really not any fear to even just like air it all out for everyone. And it's kind of like you want everyone, you want as many people as possible to know about it.

Yeah, I mean, what's motivating it in a lot of cases is you have individuals who are not like connected to a church right now. And they need some sort of rationale to explain their functional apostasy, essentially.

So the Bible says they went out from us because they were not of us, but they left that it might be demonstrated that they are not of us. Now, like the only way to get out of that, you know, and like when you're the person who's neglecting to meet together as is the habit of them, you know.

Like when you're that person who is treading dangerous ground and what you need is you need some story that puts you in like the position of the victim in order to make it all make sense. Because right now, I mean, you're living in a society that basically if you claim the victim status, like there's no accountability for you whatsoever.

Right, you get immediate affirmation.

You get like instantaneous like Catholic Church sainthood, you know. Like once you claim that victim label, that's what you get, you know. But then the problem though is that like in case after case after case, like, you know, when you really think about what they're actually saying and like, you know, often it's just like, you know, like I was on the media team or something and, you know, and I kept on not showing up.

And then like, you know, the person basically asked me to commit to showing up when I'm on the schedule or like quit, like just step down from the role, you know. It's just like, how dare you, you know, not, you know, understand that, you know, I'm like a college student who, you know, is unreliable at this point in my life.

I'm going through things emotionally and don't know how to process, you know, things. So, I mean, it's often like things like that or it's often like, you know, like stories of like, you know, some sort of church discipline process that was started, you know, whether or not it was just someone confronting them of some sort of sin in their life.

You know, often it's not, doesn't even go near the third step. It's often just the first step kind of things that are just basic individuals trying to encourage like accountability in their life to some degree, like, hey, you know, you might not want to, you know, dress with a see-through shirt on, you know, or something like that.

You know, just basic kind of stuff like that, you know, that, you know, it's just how dare you or, you know what, you're dating someone and they're not a believer, you know, and they're a drug addict.

You know, like they never go to church. They use recreational marijuana every week, you know. They're obviously high every time I'm talking to them, you know, and it's just like they don't have a spiritual thought in their brain, you know.

The Bible says don't be unequally yoked with unbelievers, you know. It's that kind of thing where it's like, you know, you're spending the night at your boyfriend's house every week, you know. We need to have a conversation about it.

It's like how dare you, you know. So, I mean, but then like the thing is, it's like the scandal is that like that victim label became the excuse that validated their sin, right? And you take it away and it's like all that's left is just, oh, like I'm the one to blame here, you know.

And it's like people can't, like they don't process that. I mean, that's just the way that relationships work. You always are looking for someone to blame for your problems, you know. Right. And like once you get that, then you get this all-purpose excuse to basically not deal with life anymore.

Believing Victims, Testing Accusations, and Hearing Both Sides

Yeah. So, when it comes to, you know, say you're in that situation where you meet the person who is saying, hey, you know, I'm a victim. Look at how the church hurt me. Should we, if we want to honor God, should we immediately believe them as a victim?

Well, the issue is like not whether or not we believe victims. The issue is who's the victim, right? So, like I want to believe the victim. The question is who is it, you know. Is it you? Like are you the victim?

Are you the villain in this scenario? And, you know, often like life is a little more complicated than that. Often like we're all of us victims in certain ways and villains in certain ways and life doesn't seem to divide up so neatly like that.

As if like the, like, you know, every person you're dealing with is like Anne Frank and then the person that they're accusing is Hitler, you know.

Like often it's Yeah, it's not all Jedi and Sith.

I mean, it's not, you know. It's often like even in situations where like the individual has a legitimate like beef, you know, with the other, like there's, it's more complicated than that. And they probably fail to handle like how to deal with like probably didn't suffer very well and weren't very, you know, long suffering and weren't very patient and humble and, you know, everything else.

So, it's just complicated, you know. So, like the issue is not whether or not we believe victims, it's who is it. But then the Bible tells us the first to plead their case seems right until another comes to examine it.

And like when you're listening to one side of the story, like there has never ever been a situation where I've listened to one side of a story and then not, and then got the other side and the other side wasn't incredibly illuminating, right?

Like I've never been in that scenario. And being involved in counseling, you know, I, you can hear, you can listen to the woman like, and it's like, man, she's just like, like messed up. And like this guy is a horrible monster and, you know, just, you know, Satan incarnate.

And then you listen to the guy and it's just like, oh, wow. Like, I get it. Yeah, that's a little more complicated than what you're making it out. And then you listen to the guy and it's like, she's like literal, you know, just a vicious life sucking abyss from which there's no escape, you know.

And then you listen to her and it's just like, yeah, you know what? Like he comes home every day and, you know, plays on his phone for, you know, eight hours. And then like, then he wants to, you know, have sex with me at three in the morning, you know, after he ignored me all day long.

It's like, dude, what's your problem? You know, but it's just like, that's the way it works. You know, even in these church situations where, you know, like even when there's like some sort of like, you know, kernel of truth there, it's just, it's a lot more complicated.

So, yeah, I mean, I think what you have to do is you have to suspend some sort of, you know, judgment, you know. And often you can ferret it out pretty easily like in those kind of things by saying, hey, you know, like, would you mind if I go talk to your church about it and get their side of the story?

Amber Heard, Police Shootings, and the Power of Narratives

Yeah, I think if you want to see like a really bad example of what could happen, if you just immediately believe the first side that you hear is just look at this, you know, Amber Heard, Johnny Depp court case going on right now.

I mean, for a while there, everyone was ragging on Johnny Depp because, you know, Amber Heard came along and was essentially insinuating that Depp was, you know, beating her and abusing her verbally and physically.

And then here we are now and it's like everyone's kind of acting like they were never on Amber's side to begin with, you know, because you're finally getting a lot of, you know, over the last year or so, however long it's been, you've been getting a lot of Johnny Depp's side.

And all of a sudden it's like, oh, whoa, this is not what Amber Heard made it out to sound like, you know. So it seems like if you want any sort of extra biblical sort of example of, you know, not believing the first person that claims victim status, then just look at this court case going on.

Look at all the police shootings too. I mean, the police shootings are also examples of that kind of thing to where, like, the problem is that like once the narrative is set, then like, you know, literally it's just like, you know, hands up, don't shoot, you know, Michael Brown, that kind of stuff.

And it's like, you know, the forensic evidence shows that he had gunpowder on his hand, you know, how does he get the gunpowder on his hand? You know, and there's evidence that he charged the police officers bashing his head.

And it's just like, you know, like there's two sides to every story. And one of the things that we have to do, like almost especially in an age that has like video evidence, is like there's been situations where you just like you see a clip, you see a brief moment, and you jump to a conclusion.

It's just like you gotta hold off a little bit. But then, you know, that's especially true with just dealing with testimony, you know, like these narratives are already set. So like the narrative is set that the church is just this monstrous, you know, abuser of its authority.

And people are ready to believe that and hear that. And part of what's happening is that like you're living in a culture and society right now that basically hates all authority. And a lot of like the abuse like claims are coming from like a culture that is hostile to the very idea of authority across the board.

And so that's a lot of what's happened in the church too, movement, Me Too movement, all that is you have like a narrative that all authority is bad. And then like it's by definition bad. And so then the church has authority structures within it.

And so you have like people who are just jumping to conclusions, but then like the Johnny Depp Amber Heard thing, you know, it's just one of those things where I guess just a great example, like what you're talking about, the first to plead their case seems right until another one comes along to examine it.

And, you know, like there's obviously like two sides to every story. And, you know, you can selectively portray certain bits and pieces of a story and not have the full picture. And it just shows you that like, you know, if you give an answer before you hear it's following shame, like that you have to like be patient and listen to both sides.

And, you know, if a lot more pastor, like what happens a lot of times is pastors, they don't want to do the work of like actually getting the other side of that story. And then what happens is the disgruntled church member goes to their church and they're the next like victimizer, you know, like, and it's just like it, but really what's happening is you have like, in a lot of cases, like individuals who were just like doing, they're doing the same thing they do in their own marriages and their own relationships.

You know, it's just, it's all about them and it's about what they want, you know, and they go into a relationship and it's just like, you know what, like she doesn't, you know, respond to my every desire exactly the way I want, you know, she doesn't live up to all my fantasies and, you know, and everything else.

And so, like, I can't trust her and she, you know, wounded me and all that. And then on the other end, it's just like, he's not loving me well and, you know, anticipating flawlessly all my desires and needs and knowing, you know, at any given moment exactly what I want and validating all my feelings.

And, you know, you take that into a church and, like, you've learned to do that in relationships and it's the same thing that's happening at the church level. It's just, now it's like, you know, the church who is not validating their desires and giving them everything they want and doing everything, you know, idea they have and you just have a mess.

Masculinity, Victim Language, and Suffering Well

Right. And I think when it comes to, you know, we've been talking about it's really popular to claim victimhood status and people are kind of, they're jumping at the chance really to claim it for themselves, get that coveted label.

But doesn't it seem like it's kind of a sissy thing to do? I mean, don't you think of, like, if a guy came along and I know some people like this who, guys who are constantly, like, everybody's out to get me.

And I always kind of think, like, man, that's a little sissy, isn't it?

What is that guy's name? Jesse Lee Peters or Jesse, what is the guy's name? Who? The black dude that….

Oh, I don't know. You've mentioned him before.

Beta, the one who's always saying Beta. Beta. Beta. No, I mean, it is, it's very emasculating to be that kind of person who's just like, you know, everyone hurt me and everyone…. Everybody's out to get me.

Everyone's out to get me and everyone's so mean to me. And it's just like, it's emasculating. Yes. It's like, even in situ…. I mean, I just, I don't know, man. I've been in churches that I thought, like, they got some problems, man.

But that's not my impulse. I've been in situations where I've been under leaders that I thought, hey, they're not qualified to be a pastor, they need to step down, everything else. And they're not handling things well.

I don't know what they're doing. But there was never in my mind this thought, like, this is, I'm wounded and I'm hurt and I'm not validated. I've been in situations where I've been qualified to teach and not being utilized with my gifts.

But I have no expectation that I'll be used. I consider it like a privilege. Like, you know, I've been in those situations and there's no expectation that you're going to give me some position and give me some, like, who am I?

I'm nobody. You know, if God wants me to have like a way to be useful, then He'll make me useful. Just like, you know, if there's situations where I can be helpful, I'll be helpful. I'll just look to serve, like, in the ways that you'll let me.

Like, you know, picking up chairs and moving them and doing, you know what I mean? My attitude about it, you know, I mean, and I, you know, there's like, you know, I could tell you about a church I was at where they had like a lady, this church I was at.

And like one day I discovered that after I rejoined it, that there's an older lady who was leading like an adult Sunday school class full of all the deacons in the church. And so I went and I talked to the pastor about it.

And I said, like, what's going on? You know, and his answer to that was, you know, we're just going to let this one die off, you know? And I just thought, oh, what a wimp, man. What a wimp.

Hey, what do you want me to do? They'll call me a woman hater if I shut it down.

But, you know, but like the way I responded to that was just, I thought, all right, I'm not going to cause a big stink about this. I'm not going to, like, try to destroy this place. It's just like, I'm going to find a new church, right, man?

No hard feelings. You let it die off. I just can't follow that, you know? But I mean, I didn't think to myself, oh, man, I was wounded and I was damaged. And, you know, everyone's going to, like, I have to justify myself.

Dude, that was a golden opportunity, man. You should have jumped at it.

I didn't go there with it, you know? It's just like, there's no, like, why would you go, like, why do you, like, I just don't get it. Like, there's churches that are unfaithful, you know, and you try to help them be faithful, but if they don't want to listen, you shake the dust off your feet and, you know, you find somewhere that's going to be solid, you know?

And you don't have to turn it into this big old, I'm wounded, I'm damaged, like, I put myself out there. It's like, I just, I don't get that. Like, I don't get that kind of mentality. Like, I don't, it's not, like, masculine.

Like, in, you know, in, like, the guys that are doing that, they're doing that because they don't have, I don't even know what it means to be a man. Like, and, you know, big surprise, like, the ladies in their life don't want to, like, be intimate with them.

It's because they're pansy, you know?

Right. I mean, even that terminology is, like, really kind of weak and sissy-like. You know, like, I'm weak, I'm damaged, I'm, you know, I'm broken. I can't even say them all because they're so, I think when people use those words, this is like a, you know, I'm pulling back the curtain a little bit.

But when people start using those words and they're not being, like, you know, facetious or sarcastic or something, I have one of two responses. The first one is to just, like, totally roll my eyes, you know, and think, like, this is the dumbest thing ever.

Like, you're being a sissy, you know? The second one is just to just, like, cringe as hard as I can, basically. I think, like, because the words themselves are just so, like, weak, I guess.

I'm guessing that you have a therapeutic peacock or something in order to do it. It's like, whoa, like, we're really there, you know? We're there. Therapeutic peacock. That's where we are, you know? But, I mean, like, part of what's happened is you're living in a matriarchal society and, like, men haven't been taught, like, these basic kind of temperance and control of their emotions and fortitude.

And, like, they, you know, they really, like, they haven't been trained to have control over their emotions, you know? They've been taught that, like, in order to be a man, you have to express your emotions just like a woman might.

And so then, like, but that's, like, whatever that is, it's not, like, being strong, it's not being courageous, it's not acting like men, it's not strength, it's not courage, it's not any of that. It's, like, it's like a surrender of all the masculine virtues when you start speaking that way.

I mean, and there's a reason why, like, you shouldn't expect any sympathy from that. You should expect people to say, hey, man up, you know, like, get control of yourself. Because if you can't even handle, like, mild pushback on your ideas, like, you can't handle those kind of situations, how are you going to do anything that, like, the Bible actually calls a man to do?

You know, like, the zombie apocalypse comes and you're reduced to tears because the zombies are hurting your feelings. Like, what in the world? Like, you know, like, we need you to, like, you know, get out your club here and go to work.