March 9, 2016 Show with Bill Shishko on “Worship that is Acceptable to God: Its Principles and Practices”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

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platform on which pastors Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we

converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another

wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

Now here's our host Chris

good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity

Living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris orange and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this

ninth day of March 2016.

And I am so delighted to have a return guest who I

Definitely have counted among my very favorite guests for years.

Including the old iron sharpens iron broadcast and not only that one of my dearest friends.

His name is Bill Shishko.

Currently pastoring the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York

he is a truly gifted and awesome and powerful and biblically

faithful preacher teacher Conference speaker and who knows maybe one day author if my

prayers are answered.

And today we're going to be discussing a very important and highly debated topic

a theme that has sadly created not only controversy

controversy, but division amongst the professing body of Christ and

This topic today is worship that is acceptable to God its principles and

practice.

And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to iron sharpens iron Bill Shishko.

Hey, Chris, good to be back with you.

What my what a collage you give me?

I'm wondering if it's really me that you're talking.

As far as writing books Chris, I'm doing it all the time.

The Bible talks about writing epistles on the tablet of the human heart.

But by the spirit, so I'm writing books all the time.

Amen.

Well, I hope you actually include the ink eventually as well because I think that you definitely you definitely

have the gift to pursue that.

And in studio with me again is my friend the Reverend Buzz Taylor and.

You two have something in common in that you're both Alumni of Bob Jones

University.

And on top of that both became Theologically reformed and even Presbyterian even after

graduating Bob Jones.

That is a good way of looking at it and Buzz won't you tell?

Pastor Bill where you have pastored.

Because he was asking before we went on the air.

You never got a chance to answer that.

Well, I was the assistant pastor for a couple years in the

Independent Baptist Church in Depew, New York, which is near the Buffalo Airport and

after that I pastored About 45 miles southeast of Buffalo.

I'm originally from Buffalo, New York.

And I pastored in a little town of Sandusky South of Arcade if anybody knows where that is.

Nobody knows where Sandusky is if you go 10 miles down the road from Sandusky, New York and say you're from Sandusky.

They say Ohio.

Just one of those things but and of course, it's got it's it's a name of him for me now.

We won't get into that, but I've also pastored a Church of God in Pennsylvania.

That's the of the Church of God General Assembly the Finley, Ohio.

Church of God if you're from a non charismatic Denominator.

Wesleyan Armenian predominantly and.

During that time I also went through a stint of Charismania and I was working with the

Assemblies of God for a little while in for teen challenge and then all the while

moving towards a reformed Presbyterian.

And That job finished when I moved to Maine and my last church was

In the capital area of Maine in a little town called Fayette and Then I moved to

Pennsylvania and I haven't been ministering I've done a few weddings and things but I have not actually taken a

church.

I'm not close to that again.

It's just at this point in my life.

It wasn't in the schedule and buzz is currently the member or should I say a member?

A member.

Yeah, I'm not the member.

I'm a member.

Yes a member of Carlisle reformed Presbyterian Church, which is a PCA congregation.

And we are going to be discussing An issue that is rooted today in Hebrews 12

verses 28 through 29 Therefore since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken

Let us show gratitude by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe.

For our God is a consuming fire and I'm looking forward to having you

Exegete that for us pastor bill and then also obviously expand the

Topic into the broader areas of what? goes into worship and and we're going to

be breaking up the the two hours in To the first hour being the principles

of worship and the second hour the practice of worship, but before actually we start

talking about that I I Forgot to have you give our listeners an update on

yourself and the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square because people are really

Very frequently is more than you might know Asking me if you are already retired or what

the case was with Bill Shishko.

So if you could let our listeners know.

So they're caught up to speed on that.

I'd rather.

Well

Radio in a sense doing what your dispaterian church is more exposed.

I've had that burden.

The second is our regional group

of church more

evangelism should

dance after a

lot called me

a beginning

Program called a visit to be similar in many ways Chris.

In fact, if you're looking at the thing is to

follow up my pray for the

pope for the and you

may remember that.

Many years ago when I was working for WMCA radio I actually came up with the title of

a special broadcast that you sponsored nearly annually a visit to this pastor study.

Well, I'm gonna give out our our email address.

For those of our listeners who may want to ask questions.

It is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chr is Arnzen at gmail .com.

Please give us your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and

Please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal matter.

Perhaps you have some kind of criticism about the worship of That's that

takes place in the church where you are a member and you don't want to identify.

In fact, we would prefer you didn't identify yourself if that was the case or or something of

that effect.

But otherwise, please give us at least your first name city and state and country of

Residence,.

I think a good place to start would be.

It may seem like a no -brainer or a simple question.

But a definition of worship since there is disagreement over what falls under that

category one blatant.

Unpainfully obvious reason why there is confusion about the definition is because the Church of Rome

Insists that they are not worshipping Mary and the Saints and

images of them.

In all the activity that they do surrounding Mary and the Saints and the images which would

include the kneeling.

Before praying to singing to all those kinds of things and of course

even in them within modern Evangelicalism you have a differences differences of opinion and what is worship.

Some think it's only about the singing and the playing of music.

But if you could give us a definition.

Yeah.

Well, of course the Roman Catholic Church makes a distinction between

Let's try and write

the

picture

rather

than the Creator and any

form of self or

anyone other than

a forbidden

Bible connected with a

priestly activity Connected with

other places of the world when it's translated into

the absurd

Range that

now to

get to

your worship

is used for what we call all life worship.

When Paul you

present

your bodies a living

sacrifice.

But the New

Testament also,

that's

normally

what we

sent

that

sense in

which the

Priestly Old Testament are

now fulfilled.

We already have a listener who

has a question for

you.

His name is Porter in Palmetto, Florida.

And he asked and I think it's a good way to start off some of the discussion about

detailed definitions of worship.

His question is the regulative principle of worship requires Exclusive psalmody.

Do you practice it?

And obviously there are differences of opinion amongst even the reformed on that and even amongst the exclusive

Psalm singers because some of them exclusively sing a cappella and some do not.

But if you could define the regulative principle since it's in his question and answer his

question about the exclusive psalm.

Yeah, that's a

that's a terrific question.

Let me

break it

into nation, but as

important

was the

Reformation of the whole church and

that had almost

highest unless

something

is

and rightly We're to do only what

the script and incidentally

that doesn't make these questions easy.

Are the answers easy?

But it does tell you where we're going to get the answers.

You shall not add to

them.

We don't we don't take away

from the neither.

Do we add

to it corporate?

We're heightened.

So that would be that's

the basic answer.

I don't know Chris if you want to draw me out about that or you want me to do I think that.

You've been very detailed on the regulative principle unless buzz is a question.

Then you can move on to the exclusive psalm.

It'll be interested especially.

But I don't hold to

say that.

I.

Say that very very care GI Williamson.

I've heard men of God preach from your pulpit like Ted Donnelly and Morris Roberts.

Who are exclusive

songwriters?

Yeah, and they and

out of

deference to

my we're

to speak a

different.

I just but

I don't.

The second.

The second argument is fine itself.

Arguably.

And I realize it's a debate.

Arguably.

Philippians to

Him the church as a hymnic quality to it.

But even if that's not the case, you have this.

You have the songs in the book of Revelation.

You have the song.

Song of

Moses and

the song

of the Lamb and the praise

before.

I'm not

person or

my purse that the

Psalms Represent what the writer of Hebrews called the shadowy times.

It was the shadow where I'm yet.

He's shown there and he is shown in all the hundred fifty Psalms.

But I have a real problem believing that.

There there's a

choice

and I reject

the view incidentally, but

it's a violation and of

course the added

to what you just

said.

Is that the exclusive psalmity?

Position would prohibit Christians from Praising Christ

by name.

Specifically.

Some of

these principles

Probably at the time the person or that Emperor who was really

he was for localized.

Was that

the was acceptable and

sin showing that we're

not Christians to

the call of the

God.

A but that's anyway.

So he was and all of this

culminates in chapter 12.

We

haven't

come in

the spirit

and the

writer said

who

hasn't

been

complete

He is in the gathering

of God's

peach

shaking

of the

day.

Then he comes to

this.

Therefore receiving the keep

now always tell people that grateful No, he's

shaken is

those

who know

full of

the thing.

Let us all just

sit down a

lot day

and

really be careful.

Now.

I assume that you have no.

Objection to people.

You know sitting in Starbucks and not only praying but evangelizing.

As you know, certainly.

Popular image today.

Yes.

Yes.

I know we call God Abba means father, but but.

With reverence is an

irreverent.

That's how

that's

how the old test like

we probably have to break

here.

But the word all here.

It's a

classical literature, but the word means fear.

It's a fear that has even an element of and that's why this ends for.

So in this magnificent text you have on the one hand is tremendous Gratefulness

that we are there.

We're receiving a kingdom in which among others and

never

forget That our God is a professor

Murray can't

help

but.

And just as you

always were before you are quite the punctual individual and

you stop speaking exactly when we need to go to a break and I am going to go to a break

right now.

And if anybody would like to join us on the air as Porter did with a question of your own our

Email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

And by the way Porter give us your full address.

Because you have won a brand new new American Standard Bible and

That is compliments of the publishers of the New American Standard Bible who sponsored this broadcast and who are

now celebrating their.

74th.

Year of service to the church and we thank them for Being

faithful sponsors of iron sharpens iron going all the way back to 2006 so I hope Porter

that you're not a King James only advocate and This this Bible will be meaningless to you because I

happen to know that a lot of the exclusive psalm singers happen to be

Coincide coinciding with their views King James only advocates, but not all of them.

And but I hope they enjoy the Bible reporter and if anybody else would like to join us on the air We look forward to hearing from you at Chris Arnzen

at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back.

With pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square on our theme today

Worship that is acceptable to God.

Don't go away.

We're going to be right back after these messages attention

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I.

Wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man if I were still trying to please man? I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukins pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we

do.

Than how men view these things?

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and To be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth.

And love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area.

Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

Or even on sermon audio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

Welcome back.

This is Chris arms, and if you just tuned us in our guest today is my old friend pastor Bill Shishko.

One of my favorite guests of all time.

He is of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York.

And we are discussing worship that is acceptable to God in studio with me.

Today is my co -host the Reverend buzz Taylor.

And if you'd like to join us on the air our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

We have an anonymous listener who says I am a member of a reformed church.

That has some charismatic influence, but is not full -blown charismatic or Pentecostal

and they believe that Dance is an acceptable expression

of worship.

Because it is found in the Old Testament.

This makes me feel uncomfortable.

Should it.

Yeah, definitely, let me just let our listener know be patient.

And.

Also, please give me your full mailing address a promise I will not identify you because

you've requested to remain anonymous.

But you will receive a free genuine leather.

Actually, it's a bonded leather, but a very beautiful New American Standard Bible.

Absolutely free of charge compliments of the publishers of the NASB if you provide for me your

full mailing address.

But if you could continue where you left off about the Old Testament's clear

and frightening warnings about Approaching God in an irreverent manner.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the

text

is

wherefore

and

it's that

thankfulness

the word they're

smelling

saturation.

We're talking about

everyone at

number one and

other words with a

creator.

I love how we

go from being.

You know, we're caught.

The second thing is because you're caught up in God.

You have necessity caught up in and in his works and

it caught up in his Imagination

and if you're not caught up again.

A phenomenal theme.

I love this theme.

Why were the Israelites brought out of each metaphor,

you know, it was worship me

and and of course Chris I love to say this to you is what Pharaoh wouldn't let the little children

go with the Israelites.

Moses said no way the children.

I'm sure Chris needed that.

Thank you very much.

I'm sorry.

We've run out of time.

Anyway, so but more to the point so they're delivered out of the land of Egypt.

They're delivered through the Red Sea.

There's the works of God.

It's a consummate Old Testament image leading us to the to the resurrection of Christ.

And then

what does

God do?

He's a savior.

He's a redeemer and and so.

So what

does it

mean

temptations of Christ do

it all to

your glory of

God?

What does

you

know?

Some have I think Really

diminished the awe and reverence and Very uniqueness

Of the corporate worship of God by stressing that all of life is worship.

So therefore they feel free To incorporate things that you would do in your

common everyday life Into their worship service.

Because hey if everything is worship Then why shouldn't we be allowed to participate in this in a

worship service?

Yeah.

Well, this is

I was just making some notes for the second hour because of this.

Yeah, so I will definitely come back to that.

I want to go back to the all of life worship when we get into the practice and.

The The thing the thing that I have heard about

what you started off the program with The the regulative principle I've even heard that from some

reformed people is that if you are really

A sinner saved by grace and you recognize the joy and the freedom of

being released from that bondage the regulative principle They will say is not even a

biblical biblically binding principle itself.

Just like the Roman Catholics say solo scriptura is not scriptural.

And.

That you really.

Putting the joy and freedom of worship in a stranglehold.

How do you respond?

Yeah, that's a great.

That's a great question Chris that

what it

when I

preach

began we hear these will be worship.

Worship

because

slaves.

That's what you're getting.

Because what if God says boy that

were to end.

And the way and the message

basically precisely because

We'll deal

with Morgan

or even burn.

And in language that that's Contemporary and

with the other hand with traditional worship as we'll mention

in the next.

Remember that in our worship We are worshiping with and it is

supposed to be

access joy or

serious

worship services are full of lamentation.

Slaves, no, we're not slaves.

The language of a free in

crime deed, but you take his yoke

upon you.

So that's that's another false dilemma.

Freedom.

And that's that's a little bit more to corporate worship

if you have a congregation of a hundred people.

It's not supposed to be a hundred people doing his or her own thing in worship.

Personal worship.

They'd be a little bit broader on what's

done or fear of your

parents.

But then it right Chris right at the beginning.

Polar is it.

We have a listener in Cumberland

County, Pennsylvania.

BB who wants to know is it considered worship when a

Christian during his private life outside of the corporate assembly is Using

his gifts to praise God such as if he is a painter or dare say I

a sculptor.

Not that he is creating images to be venerated.

But that he is just creating Images as fruits of his gifts that God has

given him for aesthetic pleasure.

And while creating them he views it as an act of worship and thanks and praise to God

for the gift He has received.

And

as

you

know,

there is

some

sharp

disagreements

though even

amongst.

Like -minded brethren in all other areas men who may even share the same pew

church.

There's a sharp Contrast in the The view of

whether or not any images are ever to be used even in an illustrated Bible I mean

images of Christ that is Even an illustrated Bible even in the Children's Bible

even an artwork in the home.

What is your view on that.

In regard to even not only paintings, but even if someone were to have a

Statue of Christ that was never to be used as an act

or as a As a an object of veneration of worship, or it's just used as a

meaningful.

Decoration in their home.

Yeah.

Well, I stand with what all

We can't

do

that

respect

to

people having image wise

you and

and

when

I

Example our God is a consuming fire How

how can that be depicted in a way

that horror?

Reformers were unanimous and I need to study their arguments just for you reader for your

listeners.

John Owen Collected writings

some of the

most of one section in on as

typical of Owen

unanswerable now.

Did not Luther though take a different view than the other reformers on that.

Yeah, and remember that that Luther was and I love Luther.

I took a class on Luther's.

Really.

Yeah praise the Lord for Luther.

It's interesting the time magazine regarded 1999 when we came.

Generation on liberty of

conscience under the Word of God was Luther.

Probably Chris apropos so

Liberty that he had a

joy with the light with everything.

And I think we got Bobby's.

He was very sensitive to what

worship.

What was required and allowed Luther to go go in a broader

way than we would.

Brothers has a question.

Well, yeah, and also I think at a time like this.

It's also appropriate to let people know in case they ever saw this that the painting on your wall is John Calvin

not Jesus.

Okay, I was talking about in my studio.

There's a bearded gentleman in a painting on my.

I'm concerned about those who can't remain with us for the second hour and I just you know, I've.

I want to make sure that I'm understanding the principle before we go on to the practice in the second hour.

You're saying then if I'm hearing you correctly, it can be summed up by Thankfulness and fear or

reverence is reverence.

I mean, I think buzzes.

We're

gonna

be going to

another break

right now.

And we do have a couple of listeners waiting to have their questions answered asked and answered on the air.

And if you could be patient with us, we will get to you as soon as possible and Our email address if you'd like to join

them as well is Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Chris Ornson at gmail .com.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back with pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York and

Reverend buzz Taylor my co -host today as we discuss the theme What worship

is acceptable to God.

Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back.

Paul wrote to the church at Galatia for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God?

Or am I trying to please man.

If I were still trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Hi, I'm Mark Lukens pastor of Providence Baptist Church.

We are a reformed Baptist Church and we hold to the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689.

We are in Norfolk, Massachusetts.

We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do.

Than how men view these things?

That's not the best recipe for popularity.

But since that wasn't the Apostles priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate Love and compassion to our fellow man and to be

vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build Up the body of Christ in truth and

love if you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts or plan to visit our area.

Please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750.

That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us listen to past sermons worship songs or watch our TV program entitled

resting in grace.

You can find us at Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

That's Providence Baptist Church ma .org.

Or even on sermon audio .com.

Providence Baptist Church is delighted to sponsor iron sharpens iron radio.

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Enthusiastically serving our Lord Jesus Christ in fellowship play and together.

Hi.

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Thanks a lot to pastor Bob Waldemann Sal D 'Antonio and the whole team over

there of Brethren in Christ who are sponsoring iron sharpens iron radio and Now

we are back on the program to discuss Worship acceptable to God with our

guest Bill Shishko pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York and in studio with

me is the Reverend buzz Taylor.

I will never call him the right Reverend buzz Taylor no matter how much he insists upon it.

Definitely not the most right Reverend but.

We are.

Transitioning.

I believe unless you have something more you want to say, but the principles we're going into the practice of worship.

Well, you know since Bill you and I come from a similar background.

We remember those chapel sayings of Bob Jones senior where one of them he said was

there's no difference between the sacred and the secular and in the last hour talking

about worship, we were talking about all of life worship and This has been an issue

that I've come through Having gone as you heard in the first hour.

I've been kind of around the block when it comes to churches and It hasn't been

until recently that I even Thought about the concept of worship in any kind of serious way because it

used to be just you know.

Whatever was done with is what we did, you know, but I think you use the term recently kind of loosely you've been.

For about a decade.

Even longer than that as far as reform.

But it you know.

It takes a long time once you've gone reform to learn all there is to reform theology.

Every true Christian is reformed in his or her heart because he or she believes that God saves.

Yes, well as one said we are not only the problem is we we hit the pause button

back in the 16th century and we Are reformed instead of reforming so I've been still

reforming and one of the areas that I've been challenged on Over and over again has been this matter of

worship and then to be perfectly honest with you.

I have found it Rather confusing.

I'm not sure if it's just that complicated or if it's just not being stated well or whatever.

But I see, you know as I was mentioning Bob Jones saying there's no difference between the sacred and the secular

and it seems to me we have a pendulum that swings both ways since we're talking about the practice of worship now that

Some people believe that whatever you can do In the world is

acceptable to bring into worship because there's no difference and then other people would say whatever you do in worship Cannot

be accepted in the world because it's worldly, you know, it goes the other way and I remember

our friends in Alberta, I think you know what I'm talking about we're dealing with me for

quite a while and of course the two subjects of exclusive sanity and instruments only and They mentioned that

you know, they'd like to go to jazz concerts and things like that.

And I'm thinking well, wait a minute now, but you know yet When it says in the Psalms praise him with the sound of

the trumpet you don't dare try to do that because that's that's no Longer, you know biblical worship and that's the whole

point there a good friend that I respect used to refer to look for example liturgical worship

as Biblical worship and then there was all other.

What about this.

Wow.

How many more programs.

Okay, let

me.

It's important to

worship.

It's called

worship of the evangelical church

it is.

It is basically how

Perspective,

although

it's

what

dated

is an

REY chapel

or than Rayburn does with and

then worship.

That's

a very thoughtful volume that I think

would touch buzz and

sort of come out of that college

opinion

and

buzz.

You know, there's no difference between the sacred and the second

that view that one credit.

Yes.

Millennialists on surrounding me here.

Well, that's good.

It'll keep you straight.

You

know

the Psalms 149 and

those two of what

all Eternity will be and up there will

not be no.

It'll be the full for the prophet even that even the

bells appreciate the view.

Jazz concert is a jazz.

It's a jazz concert.

A movie's a movie and We buy what the Word of

God says.

Well, you know, I.

Think about passages like in the Old Testament.

I'm good.

I did not bring my concordance.

So sorry.

I cannot find it but I know that it was said to that.

There were certain perfumes and incense that was to be used for worship that was not specifically we're

told that is not to be used in your homes and.

It was it was for worship.

Worship is to smell different.

Then then non -worship, you know, and what's interesting is in the worship services I've

been in where almost anything goes it is primarily by Dispensationalists who would look at

all the things of the Old Testament and say well, that's not for the New Testament.

They tend to be very dispensational.

And of course I'm talking more than your charismatic and Pentecostal circles there.

And of course you have the example of Nadab and Abihu Destroyed by God

and they would have been perfectly right to burn that incense in their home If it was just to to cover

up a stench or something, but when they used it as an act of worship.

That's a fascinating text.

In relation to our God is a consuming fire.

Remember

that

showing at that by the

fire.

Yes, so

in God is teaching.

Precisely.

Yes.

Yes, okay, because that is the issue that well that Let me put it this way to this helps you

to understand.

My dilemma is I am a trumpet player and you know Let me just without any

pride say not mediocre.

You know, I have a particular ability.

Would you like to move to Franklin Square?

We'd love to use you our worship service.

Yeah, please do.

Tempting very tempting.

But you know, so I have to make the decisions here, okay, what's appropriate and what's not what.

And of course.

Like I said just in the past Years when I was in the charismatic and Pentecostal circles

anything went so, you know I I don't want to swing the pendulum so far the other way.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

See like

search on that and you I

think it's a section on standards and you'll get

the ocean.

That was one

of the

directory

that

has

Lord

God

Almighty.

I'm a man of Anna.

And a coal of

course and that

that kind of skeletal structure.

Has been.

And then your

your three made the

approach to

go when God's people begin

with a

grace to you in Christ.

It's not

that

it's not and there

is certainly a confession of sin.

It's

good.

No over against

far is

your.

I would

agree there.

Yes.

One worship.

It's.

And then that in

our church.

Yeah, our exclusive solid.

Yeah, go in a cappella as well.

Yes, as well.

So you don't casual

but in the gap now, this is so

that's.

Oh,

yes.

Every time I hear buzz playing the trumpet, I'm hoping that is the last trumpet.

And laugh as we will but we're meant to it's a sign of victory.

But but the other thing

is string against

in piano our view

with the

instruments.

Yeah, but in the corporate word of Christ, but I

just wanted to quick give a

plug to some very valuable.

People that help support my intrepid Zion whenever you hear Bill Shishko or anybody else mentioning

a good solid reform book immediately think of CVB BS Cumberland

Valley Bible book service.

Their website is CVB BS calm CV for Cumberland Valley

BBS for Bible book service calm.

Whenever anybody wins a free book on iron sharpens iron or a Bible for

submitting a question.

The folks that are mailing that out to you at no charge to either you or iron sharpens iron or our dear

friends Patty and Todd Jennings owners of CVB BS calm.

So just write that down wherever you listen to iron sharpens iron write it next to your computer or wherever and

Make sure that you revisit them over and over again for the finest and reform literature and buzztail.

Of course Todd and I play trumpets together all the time.

That's right.

We're good friends.

So I just had to give that plug in there pastor bill, but go into some of the history behind

reform the worship.

Yeah, give you

an idea of what

what that is

and

and and reform the

worship.

Kind of developed in that way in hot

when

they were dealing with the growth of Arminianism that was really beginning to ravage the

church.

Churches

happy free

and creative in

their worship and.

It was very different.

Because there you

had

three little

stool.

Yes.

You know that you're not gonna

put and and so for the Scots and and and buzz

far back very much.

Direct to it

really

has

been.

It seems to me would argue.

So anyway, so I mean

these are

the way our

elders

and

we

will eat.

Well, you know you mentioned bill the phrase footloose and it immediately reminded me of a question that was

asked almost Immediately at the beginning of the first hour.

Dance liturgical dance or otherwise in worship.

Yeah.

Well, you want to go with that.

Well, we had dancers in one of my churches not my churches that I pastored but the one I attended.

They had a team of dancers and I'll say it was beautiful.

I mean, but do you approve of it now?

That's a tough one because of the fact that I do see it in the Old Testament, but you know.

Let me put it this way.

I hesitate to quote Archie Bunker.

On a program like this.

But I remember one time when he was in jail and a guy was listening to Jesus Christ.

Superstar.

And he said he wants us to come on our knees not shake until all our parts fall off.

Well, you know I guess I Ecclesiastical

dance, I'd say a couple things.

One.

There is certainly is no reference of worship in the Old

Testament.

Yes, so the David.

David didn't like me.

Yes

on that that was

a spot joy and delight and it was kind

of like.

You know our children for you, you know, one of our children comes to faith and crying

on jumps up and down.

What am I gonna do?

Is he violating the regular?

So there's that and then of course there are the two references and yeah.

And there's when you do

have that think the

bottom line is right.

Yeah, and we're gonna go to our final break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air This is your final opportunity.

We've only got about a half hour left and our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

Chris Arnzen at gmail .com.

I think a couple of you who have been who have been patiently waiting for your questions to be read

and answered so we'll get to you God willing soon and Don't go away.

We're gonna be right back after these final messages with pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox

Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, New York and Reverend buzz Taylor my co -host as we

discuss Worship that is acceptable to God.

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That's the private story.

Welcome back.

This is Chris arms in for the last 90 minutes if you just tuned us in we have been interviewing pastor Bill

Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of Franklin Square, Long Island, New York on Acceptable worship.

Well, that is worship.

That is acceptable to God.

In studio with me is Reverend buzz Taylor and you can join us at Chris arms and at gmail .com with

your own questions, and we do have an anonymous listener who asks.

I Have a very close friend who is a pastor, but I have to admit that I

believe that his church has become a Cult of youth.

There seems to be total disregard to what elderly people and

senior saints regard as true Reverend worship and they are

driving them out.

I do not know how to approach the situation with my friend in fear of breaking the friendship.

But I cannot think that this is a dangerous trend in the church today where the senior saints

are Being given no respect or regard as if all the churches want them to

leave anyway your thoughts.

Well,

Chris,

I

think

in

that

way, but

in our situation our young people

we

were showing respect for saying

hey I have a

biblical requirement as well.

But then at

the same tragic

I mean required and that's

certain and of

course.

I think one of the main points in the listeners Question and comment was that the

elderly the senior saint is being really devout.

Devalued and ignored these a lot of these people are treasure troves of biblical

wisdom and experience in the faith Senior I should say seasoned

Believers who have been through all kinds of things and had victory through them.

And they are being viewed upon as burdens.

Young yeah,

and

that

I mean that goes

on that matter

that you have the other two and I

know both of them.

But it was really what it was really was more like the old evangelistic crusades I

think it's

what Tozer was

get were fine and very well some

announcements it's hard, but it didn't have it didn't have the

elements of no sense

of the church and the end and above

all else not that Dialogue and not questioning their

sincerity.

I had a lovely lovely people and I love the past.

You brought up something some excellent points in your sermon on this Subject on

sermon audio, which I really enjoyed hearing.

It was not only edifying to my soul but very nostalgic hearing you preach again because it's been so long and I have

such cherished memories of visiting the Franklin Square OPC and hearing you preach and so on.

But the fact that there are churches that really

have a.

They're for lack of a better phrase their one -string banjos when it comes to worship because they want it to be

all about joy happiness and.

And.

Uplifting music they Where everyone as far as the eye could see has a beaming

smile on their face including the quote -quote worship? team and

Where you have.

You are bringing up some scenarios in life how do you worship during the the

terminal illness and death of a child and Or a spouse or all these other things

that that would indicate that there are different Moods, if you

will that are incorporated into worship.

It's not all just happiness.

Yeah, there's

where an

example

others are more

corporate

oriented.

There's some are all life words, but anyway, but they but they they have

a psalmist the psalm 77 who is but it

recognizes.

So that's that is another

outer principle.

Maybe you challenge to work it out.

Not if I could

and I

think of this.

Because it's as vivid as if it happened the other day, even though it's

Saturday died.

He'd been ill shock when he died on the Saturday and

I don't know what there was a there was a shock.

There was a sadness as he worships

and I'm gonna grow

out of the heart now.

What do they do?

I didn't make the open mind our worship

a fallen world.

Worship took on that cast as I believe it was meant to do that brings up a whole other area

is the constructing the he's.

Putting together the he does it as

it would love for the come to

edification on our worship service

over how that's

the way.

It's supposed to be Dimensions to all of this that go way beyond,

you know, what items do you have in your liturgy?

And also the reverse Problem, although it may be a minority problem today.

But you and I know pastor bill in our own circles and perhaps some other

circles.

Within fundamentalism or other places you can walk into a church that They're singing

Beautiful hymns that are powerful and meaningful and biblical.

But it is like a funeral dirge every time they're being sung in certain places.

Yeah, it could be very depressing.

You could see that the people are putting no effort in Their worship at all.

They are going through a rote Thing because it's just a part of their ritual

and they look like they're falling asleep while they're singing.

So that that is just as bad, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely.

And

there's where and here

if I could push a lot helps

for

Inserts and I took all the different elements of worship which ends up in

a you break them down.

We're dealing with several dozen of them.

Not necessary, but

but

the design to began

the booklet by saying something like worship is not just

Theological

not just we

are we're very kind

of bite -sized and explanations of.

And and buzz was in a Pete Presbyterian Church and a man the

hymn that includes Here I raise my

sitting next to some bedraggled fellow would come in and we were showing them where the hymns were and

thank Here I raise.

Yeah, obviously that was talking about a Christmas Carol.

We've got to be sensitive and they're even bridging the gap.

One of the ways you can help with new why we do what we do with

again without making them to say in the prayer.

Of intercession say maybe you wonder.

Always lovingly teach.

I can't stand it.

Okay, I'll reform the point

by shit at every point and that's part of the mess.

Well, you know part of my background is that I was raised in my very early years in the

Episcopal Church and Of course it was very liturgical.

We had the prayer book and We would go through those and I you know, I remember.

What I don't remember is that we're really understanding.

I could have been some of my age.

But I'm sure some of it was because of the church I was in.

But I did not understand the thing that was going on.

But we would go through all these and when people started talking to me about liturgical worship I'm my

mind goes back to well.

Yeah, how do you avoid something becoming just wrote?

With no life like I remembered in the Episcopal Church.

Yeah, exactly, right now.

Christian worshiper.

In

fact in my opinion one of the most

into worship isn't he.

Christ your praise.

I'll confess your name.

Here am I?

Well, that's Christ.

Yeah, I think if those dynamics were brought out more

to be reformed worship.

Well, I did visit a church recently that was Very liturgical and I was shocked that

the people actually were enjoying it.

So I see that, you know, it doesn't have to be abused but on the other hand, you know I think that there could be a tendency that but I

think the difference is and this was.

The only reason I mentioned it was getting back to what you said.

If the people know why they're doing it, it has a lot more meaning than just doing it.

Absolutely.

Well, I see there.

I was gonna bring up first Corinthians 14 before we go.

Well first Corinthians 14 were to pray with.

I'll

understand

experiences when you were in your charismatic faith as far as

worship.

As far as worship goes you.

Anything goes?

No, no, I have to admit that I was in more state.

I was well my time in the assemblies of God I was it was more like going to a Baptist church like an

independent Baptist Church only they believed in tongues.

Really.

It was much more reserved.

In fact, even the matter of tongues which you know, obviously has been very controversial in the assemblies of

God.

We didn't have tongues in the regular service.

You could hear it in some of the prayer meetings and things like that, but you know, it was.

That was a for it.

Never I was never in the I refer to them as the peel -off -the -ceiling churches, you know.

My pastor when I was in Buffalo was a Very dignified individual.

It was a very large church and actually because of that many of my experiences at that time were good.

But yeah in worship It was pretty much anything goes if it's in the Bible you can do it.

No regard whatsoever for context or Testament or anything.

Well.

The

approach for

tongues

what this

is where we're gonna

go then we

and then

and

then

we meant the

ways By which the Word of God time in which there

and what Paul is saying in there He's giving us

more valuable because he's saying the spirits of

prophets are subject to profit the Lord when

it really the Word of God.

Now a complete

lightly interest when I'm preaching

Scriptures.

I am Bob.

I love that one of your ads Chris the You had the way in the last break where Spurgeon is saying basically is

essentially an ignorant man.

I'm bound I don't.

I don't listen to what

others have said at the end of the day.

I've got to make three -wheeling to me rightly

understood.

We do have a listener in Suffolk County, Long Island Christopher who says that although

many people sinfully place aesthetics on an unbiblical

and Ridiculous level of importance when it comes to choosing a church were to

be a member don't you think aesthetics and Talent do have a place

when it comes to Worshiping the Lord with musical instruments and

with voice.

And thank you Christopher.

And by the way, you're getting a free New American Standard Bible and what immediately comes to mind Pastor Bill is

There are churches that I have visited Where they seem to think that they're not worshiping unless they

have a musical instrument and there are people who are horrible And not gifted at these instruments

and you're wondering why on earth are you playing that piano or trumpet or whatever it is?

I mean, it's like they think that they have to have.

Instruments.

A congregation and he he finally one day said look if we can't sing the choir he

disbanded it.

But yeah, I mean, that's that's a very good point.

And and I think there

it's

like anything else one

church.

It's a whole church budget just on their music and it's wonderful.

It's glorious.

You know, I don't know.

Is that really what we're

supposed to we should recognize that.

Yeah, I think.

Is that the only question you have for me caller?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's what they were saying that.

Yeah, I gotta get these three things in here, I'm sure they're gonna wrap things up soon, okay.

I I wouldn't

do

the strong

crying

and

you're always

Christa,

you know

Christ

Christ never.

I remember when

I years ago

when I interviewed T David

Gordon on.

His book why Johnny can't sing hymns Outstanding.

Yes outstanding.

Yeah, he brought up when a when a caller asked about

What are any instruments acceptable in worship he brought up a humorous story but I thought it

made an excellent point through the illustration if a precious loved one of yours had

passed and You are gathered in this solemn Gathering at a

funeral and then a group of people came in and started playing kazoos.

Would you think it was out of place?

For the For the circumstances and he was basically saying that you know, there are different

kind of instruments do not produce Sounds that are conducive to

reverence in worship.

So if you could comment on that, yeah.

That's what I was getting out with the guitar and I don't know the of course their

acoustic.

I'm an agnostic when it comes to this issue with guitars and worship.

But yeah, that's a great point.

And I think what?

That that is it's a very

very well pastor bill.

I really want to make sure that in the three minutes that we have left.

He's got two more points.

He wanted to get in quick.

Oh, okay.

That's what I thought.

You want them.

Yeah.

I want to make sure that you unburden your heart and leave our listeners with Everything that you most want etched on their hearts and minds before

they leave the program today.

Are you talking to buzz or me?

You.

Focus on Christ.

Never abandon thankfulness a murder down constantly.

Let the way you worship and what you do in worship be governed by the world.

Well, I want to make sure that our listeners Know that the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of

Franklin Square has a website.

Oh PCL. I calm.

OPCL I calm and I just want to ask you if there's any

upcoming events that the congregation there is going to be involved in there Listeners should know about other than

obviously the weekly gathering of the Saints there, but other things that are coming up.

Let me mention another website while you've got it.

Although than that

is visit

the panel.

Tell you a little bit about the radio Program that I'll be doing which in many ways is

to commend you for his

upcoming in

church life.

I.

Obviously the Lord's Day worship.

There's even

a follow a man

that regarded as

something of our the

OPC Franklin Square has been

recorded regarded.

It's pretty and as it

can I

definitely will and it's

been such a joy to have you back.

Well, you are definitely someone I count among my dearest friends.

You've been mutually feelings mute.

Not just feeling.

Chris the commitments mutual.

Hey, man, he's the Lord for you and get to know you too.

I want to thank everybody who listened especially those who wrote in with questions.

You're all getting a new American Standard Bible.

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far far greater

Savior than you or a sinner.

Thank you for listening and we hope you join us tomorrow again with your own questions on iron sharpens

iron radio.

God bless.