Are Stay At Home Dads Worse Than Unbelievers?

The problem though is, if you actually look at men who are stay -at -home moms, everyone has the same kind of reaction.

You're not allowed to say it, but everyone knows. You just feel very embarrassed and very humiliated for that kind of guy.

People are tired of hearing nothing but doom and despair on the radio. The message of Christianity is that salvation is found in Christ alone.

Or forfeit any hope of salvation, any hope of heaven.

The issue is that humanity is in sin and the wrath of Almighty God is hanging over our heads.

They will hear his words, they will not act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment, when the fires of wrath come, they will be consumed and they will perish.

God wrapped himself in flesh, condescended and became a man, died on the cross for sin, was resurrected on the third day, has ascended to the right hand of the

Father, where he sits now to make intercession for us. Jesus is saying there is a group of people who will hear his words, they will act upon them, and when the floods of divine judgment come in that final day, their house will stand.

Welcome to Bible Bash, where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions you're not allowed to ask.

We're your hosts, Harrison Kerrig and Pastor Tim Mullett, and today we'll answer the age -old question, are stay -at -home dads worse than unbelievers?

Now, as we kick this episode off, Tim, what Bible verses or what Bible passage do you have to help prime us for this conversation?

Tim I mean, the obvious Bible passage is 1 Timothy 5 -8, which says that if anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for members of his own household, he has denied the faith and is worse than a nonbeliever.

So, let's go with that. Tim All right, well, you know, I think that's a good place to wrap up the episode,

Tim. So, you know, hey, we appreciate all the support that you guys give to us. You know, we were joking right before we started.

Jared Hey, I'm cool with it, man. We can end it now. Tim Just wrap it up. I've got some, Jared That's all we need. Tim You know,

I can't say it better than Paul did, man. So, you know, I've got some other things I've got to go do after this.

So, no, we were joking. We were joking before we started recording, and I was basically telling

Tim, you know, it's crazy. It's crazy how the Bible just says this.

Like, this isn't like a, a lot of times people think that when we're doing these episodes, we're trying to do these sort of like gotcha questions or, you know, something that's like this loaded kind of question that we don't actually mean, you know, we're just doing it to try to, you know, stir people up to rage and bitterness or something.

Jared That's people's response in a lot of different cases. Like, I mean, people generally think that for some reason.

I mean, I think people are hostile to the things that we're saying. They typically generally go there that they think that the point of our titles is just to tick people off or something along those lines.

But I mean, the point is just to ask like legitimate questions that people don't want to hear.

Tim Right. And it's like, this is a very obvious example of that where it's like, you can, I mean, you can accuse us of that if you'd like, but then it's like,

I mean, it's just a Bible verse that this question is coming from.

And it's, in my mind, I mean, it just totally blows my mind. I guess I should be ashamed that it still blows my mind that I'm still giving people this much credit, but it just blows my mind that the

Bible can be so absolutely unequivocally clear on a certain point, and then people will still get mad about it.

Jared Well, one of the things - Tim And they'll accuse you of like, hey, you're just trying to stir people up. And it's like, man, just think about how mad you're going to be when you realize that we actually mean these things.

You know? Jared There's, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of times where people, like this happens a lot in what

I'm preaching in general, where, so there's a couple things that are going on here.

But, you know, one of the things that's going on is this, I mean, that does happen to me on a regular basis when I'm preaching is

I'll just quote a Bible verse, but then often when I'm quoting Bible verses, I kind of paraphrase them or just saying them loosely.

I might like, you know, 1 Timothy 5, 8 says, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So I'll say something along those lines where I'm just kind of paraphrasing a

Bible verse. And what generally happens is like, I'll have someone come up to me after the service, like just very concerned and very confused, wondering, you know, why

I just said what I just said, you know? So, like an example of that would be just like, you know, at some point in my preaching ministry,

I made an offhanded comment that, you know, women are the weaker vessel, right? Stuff like that.

Then I had a church member come up to me after the service and, you know, why would you say that? Why are you saying that women are the weaker vessel?

Well, I'm just quoting the Bible here. Let me pull it out and show you where I'm quoting it, right?

Like, this is just a Bible. So I think sometimes like people, what's happening with these kinds of things is people don't, they really don't understand, like, they're just so ignorant of what the

Bible says that they just have no category for the way that the Bible speaks.

So part of it's that, you know, part of it is that people have become so familiar with the

Bible too, like in the opposite way. Meaning like you're, you listen to a

Bible phrase and people kind of, it's not that they're familiar with it, they just do a weird kind of Charlie Brown thing where like they hear the words that are coming out, but they don't process them as like real words, right?

Yeah, it's like a, yep, I read that Bible verse that is in the Bible. Jared Yeah.

Pete Anyway. Jared Yeah, so that's all that happens, like, so then, but then like this kind of thing happens with Jesus where, you know,

He's talking to the Pharisees where He's saying, you brood of vipers who warns you to flee from the wrath to come, something like that, to where they'll hear those and they'll say, okay, those are

Bible words, but they don't process what just happened in that moment, like where Jesus was standing in front of like people and calling them brood of vipers, right?

So they don't process like how offensive that was, like by modern standards.

And it doesn't kind of dawn on them that like the Bible just doesn't share their standards at all, right?

Like the Bible just has like a completely and totally different standard of communication than what they're realizing.

And then, so when you're thinking of something like, you know, if anyone doesn't provide for members of his own household, he has denied the faith and he's worse than unbeliever, we're so used to hearing that, like there's people who've never heard that before, but then the people who have like just, they're trained to have

Bible impulses where they just don't recognize what's being said. So it just kind of goes out their brain, they don't know what to do with it, right?

It's just like ignore, you know, whatever. But then it's just like, there's so many things in that that are just so counterintuitive to the way that we expect to communicate and the way that we, like our expectations for what is appropriate communication and our expectations of like what we should be saying in general.

So, I mean, like the whole, like for example, like the idea of saying that someone is worse than an unbeliever, that would be communicating that unbelievers are bad.

Jared But we're not really, are we allowed to are we allowed to acknowledge that unbelievers are like wretched people to be around?

Tim No, you can't say that, Tim. Jared Are you allowed to say that they're like pitiable people that are just, like just awful people?

Like, you know, so like it doesn't - Tim No, no, Tim, because I want to love people like Jesus loved people.

Jared All right, so then think about that. So, like if you love people like Jesus loves people in people's minds, they think that what it means to love people is to affirm them, right?

And so, you have to affirm all like every, like, you know, letter in the

LGBT, you know, for instance, alphabet as like special and unique and whatever else. You can't call them like awful contemptible people, right?

You can't say that about them. You can't say worse than an unbeliever as if unbelievers are bad, like as if they're not just like us and just normal, you know, but then like you look at like our

Twitter line when we made this poll and I mean, there's just like the scum of the earth, you know, coming after us.

Tim Yeah. Jared Like the literal scum of the earth, like - Tim I mean, there's like disgusting things being said. Jared Yeah, I mean, like just awful, like awful, like wretched people, like coming out of the woodworks to, you know, just absolutely, like people can't even, like they have no reading comprehension ability, like no understanding of logic, no nothing, you know, and they're engaged in all this depravity and like the way that they communicate, the way they talk.

I mean, it's just like these are wretched people that you would not want to be around, you know, in real life, like they're just filled with malice and hate and, you know, all manner of wickedness and all manner of evil.

So, you know, part of it is just Paul saying that if a person doesn't provide for his household, he's worse than that, right?

So that hits people weird, like if they could actually hear what's being said, like it should hit them pretty weird, right?

Like that should hit them pretty weird. But then, like the other thing that's really, people don't realize what's happening here, like with their expectations is, you know,

I do a poll. I can't do a poll on Twitter where I simply say, are stay -at -home dads worse than unbelievers?

Have they denied the faith and worse than unbelievers? I can't even do that because there's this expectation in literally everyone's mind, even the solid people, that I need to qualify that statement to death, right?

So, I can't make, I can't just say it like Paul, like even the solid people, you know, and if you're listening to our podcast and you're one of the solid people, then just take this one, you know?

Just take, like we should be able to generalize as much as Paul generalizes, okay? And Paul really generalized,

I mean, that's a generalization, right? So, you know, and he feels no need whatsoever to say, hey, yeah, you know what, guys, when

I said that, you know, I wasn't talking about, you know, James over there who just got his legs cut off because he was a

Christian martyr, you know, and he can't go back to his carpentry job anymore or something like that. You know,

I mean, obviously he's cool, man, you know, I'm not talking about him. I'm just talking about in general, you know, like he does, you know,

Paul feels no need to do that, right? Jared He feels no need to, he knows, like he expects people to understand exactly what he's saying and to not like qualify the thing endlessly to death, you know?

And so, like online we did a poll on this and I mean, I had to qualify it to death, you know, just to keep from having the comment sections, you know, filled up with, you know, the one in one, you know, million kind of example of, you know, the poor guy who went to, you know, the vet who got his leg blown off or, you know, the guy who just got unrighteously fired and is now looking for a job, you know, for his faith or something like that.

Or, you know, I mean, all these kinds, like the man who, like, you shouldn't even have to talk about the man who was widowed, right?

Who is a stay -at -home or something like that. Because like the whole category of a stay -at -home dad is a man who lets his wife work while he goes and, you know, plays the domestic role that she should be playing.

That's the very definition. So, I mean, it's pretty funny. I did a poll on that and I just put that definition underneath it and just people didn't even read the thing, you know?

But, I mean, it's just like, no, we're not talking about all those things. We're talking about the man who refuses to go to work.

That's what we're talking about. Like the man who refuses to go to work and instead of him going to work to provide, he's going to let his wife be the provider and he's going to be the domestic person.

So, you know, we shouldn't have to provide those kinds of qualifications. Paul doesn't provide those kinds of qualifications, but I mean, it seems to me that that's exactly what

Paul's talking about, like that kind of situation in general. I mean, I'm not saying that's the exact situation that he has in mind, but that's a very direct application of that kind of principle, obviously.

Right. So, in talking about all the, you know, people demand endless qualifications and whatnot, just to even like entertain your simple question about things and then, you know, on top of that, they don't even read it.

And they obviously didn't because there were a lot of people who were coming up and basically saying like, you know, well, what about the blah, blah, blah, blah, guy, you know, who has a job where he works from home?

It's like, well. Did you read the qualification where it said, I'm not talking about the guy who works from home, dad?

We addressed that. Did you not read that part? You know, and like the qualifications, it's like, it doesn't really seem like it's that beneficial anyway.

Yeah, because people don't even pay attention to it half the time. But then, you know, in talking about that, it might be helpful for us here to define what are we talking about with a stay at home dad?

What do we actually mean? You know, so you mentioned like, it's not this, you know, it's not or you implied, it's not the guy who got his leg blown off serving our country.

It's not the guy who got fired for his faith. It's the guy who has a job where he works from home, right?

So, what is the stay at home dad? Jared Yeah, I mean, I just did a simple, brave search on this and I put this on the online, but you know, a stay at home dad is a father who is the primary caregiver of their children and is generally the homemaker of the household.

Okay. So, stay at home dad is a father who is the primary, I'll read that again, is the primary caregiver of their children and generally the homemaker of the household.

And then in this quote, it says the female equivalent is the stay at home mom or housewife, right?

So, it's a male housewife, right? That's what we're talking about, male housewife, man mom, right? Pete Or as Lone Star put it,

Mr. Mom. Jared Mr. Mom, right? You know, and then the quote says, as families have evolved, the practice of being a stay at home dad has become more common and socially acceptable.

According to Urban Dictionary, stay at home dads are usually people who have failed at other manly pursuits, lack any real skills or expertise.

Pete Oh, I wasn't prepared for that. Jared I put it all on there, man.

Like, I put it all on there. I even put the Urban Dictionary part of it, you know, just to help people fail at other manly pursuits.

Lacks any skills or expertise. I mean, but it is, I mean, you know, it is the classic, you know, guy who sits staying at home, you know, playing video games and that kind of thing, you know?

So, that's what it's talking about. Like, the classic dad who's staying at home, playing video games and, you know, barely watching the kids, you know, basically just gets everything done real quick so he can, you know, do his own thing and all that.

Pete A guy who's failed at other manly pursuits. Yeah, that's pretty good.

You know, as a side note, you were talking about what should we call this instead of stay at home dads and one of the options was man mom.

People were voting on should we call it, should we call them man moms?

And my response, I liked that because, you know, it's alliteration, you know, it's short, you remember it easily.

But then the thing that I didn't like about it, there's one thing I didn't like about it and that was the fact that, you know, if you use a term like that, you're implying that they're still men.

Jared Right, right. All of them, yeah, all of them are a little bit awkward. I was trying to get people to vote on, like, the best replacement for this.

I mean, I really like transgender role -ism, you know, even though it's a mouthful. Like, I really like that because it's, you know, like a transgender person is obviously like a man, you know, if you were to think about like a man, you know, quote -unquote transgender, a transgender -

Pete Transitioning to be a woman. Jared Yeah, it's a man who's basically like pretending to be a woman, right? Pete Yeah.

Jared So, but then like the same thing is functionally happening with like the stay -at -home dad is a man, right, who is like transgender role, right?

Like transgender role -ism, meaning like he's taking on the roles of a woman. So, like, it's just, it's the same kind of idea, you know, instead of him pretending to be a woman, he's pretending to take on the roles of a woman, essentially, right?

So, I think I was asking, or I was talking to Conley about it because we had him on last week.

I was talking to him about it. I was asking him for suggestions. And so, he was talking to CHAT -GPT about it.

And, you know, he couldn't get CHAT -GPT to come up with like derogatory names, you know, for it.

Jared But he was trying to get CHAT -GPT to come up with like names that had like a Greek root or whatever.

And it came up with like Oikopater, basically. So, like house, house father, you know?

But he couldn't get him to, he couldn't get it to do anything derogatory, you know? So, I keep yelling at that.

But, you know, so, but I think, yeah, I mean, this is like, you actually kind of have to think about what's going on here.

But, you know, a lot of people were a little bit surprised that we're bringing it up because they didn't have any experience with this.

And, but then, you know, I have a job that I, you know, go into customers' homes all the time.

And this is just a thing that's like on the rise where like the standard guy who is like a man mom, like he's just a, he's like a gamer addict kind of guy who's just worthless, you know?

Like I just went into one of these guys' homes like last week, you know, and like I come to the house to do some, you know, do my job there.

And he's sitting there in his pajama pants with his shirt off when I walk in, you know, like waking up, barely awake, you know, half asleep.

And then, you know, I'm doing work for his house like in order to like do work on his video game area, you know?

So, like, that's the standard guy. But, you know, a lot of people, they just don't realize that this is actually like a real big problem right now.

And Christians don't really have a whole lot of answers to this, but just some stats that I posted about this too.

Like according to Pew Research Center, an estimated 2 .1 million fathers were stay -at -home dads in 2021.

So, 2 .1 million. Yeah. Pete Wow. Jared That's up like 8 % essentially since 1989.

So, this is on the rise. But the, you know, it basically says, like there's different categories of this, okay?

So, like the stay -at -home fathers tend to be older than stay -at -home mothers. So, that may explain why so many are at home due to illness or disability.

But then, like, this isn't always true though. So, you have like the older kind of type of stay -at -home dad, but then you also have like, you know, and this number is kind of startling, like in post -COVID world, about 14 % of dads with young children, so hear this, 14 % of dads with young children are out of the workforce, not actively looking for a job and taking care of kids full -time.

Jared 14%, 14%. Like that, now that - Pete That's like a staggering number.

Jared Yes, yes. Now, pre -COVID, that number was in the 1 % to 5 % range. And now -

Pete Are you serious? Jared Yes. So, post -COVID, 14 % of dads with young children. So, think about with young children, right?

Stay -at -home young children are, you know, they're out of the workforce. So, like you have other category, like, which isn't related to this as much of like the older guy who's probably taking like a stay -at -home mom with the teenage kids or something like that, right?

You know, maybe he's like, you know, I think that kind of dad is like the depressed kind of dad who has his mental illnesses or, you know, all of his mental illnesses, excuses, and you have like a two -income family.

At some point, he just kind of gives up, right, and lets the wife take care of it. And then they realize that, you know, surprise, they can live off of one income, you know?

And then he just kind of crawls up on a ball. He doesn't feel appreciated at his work and, you know, feels depressed.

And she just kind of takes it on. And then he just, you know, gives himself over to entertainment or something like that. But, you know, this 14 % of dads with young children are out of the workforce, not actively looking for a job and taking care of the kids full -time.

I mean, that's just shocking. That's shocking, particularly when it's with young kids, like what we're talking about.

So, like, it's a real problem. And, you know, you look at our Twitter feed recently, and you'll realize that Christians don't know how to respond to this.

Pete So, you mentioned, you read, what was that, 1 Timothy 5 .8?

Is that what it was? You read that at the beginning of the episode, and, you know, we jokingly wrapped it up there because it seems pretty clear.

But then, you know, if we were to indulge people who might still have questions, they're not persuaded by the

Bible verse, you know, how do we know that Paul there is talking about the guy who is trading, you know, the quote -unquote traditional, you know, husband role of being the financial provider for the family?

How do we know that he's the man mom?

Jared Yeah, he technically isn't, like, the man mom. But then, so, part of what's happening here is you have, like, you have a different series of passages that you can talk through as you're thinking about this kind of question in general.

So, like, meaning like this kind of passage is basically just saying it's a man's job to be a provider. So, that's what it's saying.

So, it's a man's job to take on the role of being a provider. But then you have, like, so, part of it is, like, all right, step one, man's job to take over the role of provider.

But then step two is, like, well, what is the woman's role, right? So, what is a woman's role? Well, you know,

Titus 2 says, "...the older women likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine.

They are to teach what is good and so train the young women to love their husbands and children, to be self -controlled, pure, working at home, kind, and submissive to their own husbands."

So, if you think about, like, a woman's role, that working at home phrase, I had a lady once arguing with me about that, like, the working at home phrase, like, saying, well, they just happened to be working at home during that time, right?

They just happened to be working at home, so maybe now they're not working at home, now they're in the workforce. The problem is it's a compound word in the

Greek that basically means to be domestic. So, I mean, that's, like, what the Bible is calling women to do is to be domestic.

Like, that's what they're called to do. So, you know, Titus 2 talks about that, you know, 1

Timothy 5. Later on in the passage, like, the same one we're reading, a man doesn't provide for his own, you know, household and relatives, he's denied of the faith and worse than an unbeliever.

In that same passage, he's saying, so I'd have the younger widows marry, bear children, manage their household, and give the adversary no occasion for slander.

So, like, in that passage, like, that's talking about the woman's side of it. The woman's side of it is to be, like, to manage her own household, to be a worker at home, right?

Paul's saying a man's job is to be a provider. Now, I mean, I think it's, like, obvious that in an agrarian society, you know, during Paul's day, you wouldn't have a man who would leave the home for 50 hours or whatever, leave the wife at the home to fend for herself.

So, there's unique problems that we have for living for our society. But, like, the real issue is that there's a role designed for a woman.

And, you know, there are roles designed for men, you know. So, men are designed to, like, subdue the earth, right?

That's why they're made so strong, right? Because they're designed to, like, Adam's curse was that the ground would, like, the work of the ground would be harder because he's made to work the ground, whereas the woman is made to care for children, right, to be domestic, to manage her own household.

That's why the Proverbs 31 woman, like, her, like, you think about, like, what she does, it's just all the standard women stuff, like, you know, cooking and caring for her household, making clothes for the household, you know, like, so that they're not afraid of the winter, providing food, right?

She rises early and her lamp doesn't go out at night because she's providing food for her household. So, I mean, like, the

Proverbs 31 woman is doing largely all the domestic stuff that everyone, you know, hates. And Titus 2, 1

Timothy 5 are basically just reinforcing this point that a woman has a job. So, like, you have a woman has a job and you have a man who has a job.

And, like, here's the issue. So, you think about 1 Timothy 5, a man who doesn't provide for his household, he's abandoned the faith, he's worse than the unbeliever.

You look at that, like, you think about the kind of man who refuses to provide for his home, the kind of man who, like, not only does he, like, so the situation of the man -mom is even worse than what

Paul has in mind. So, it's not just, like, it's a man who's not only rejecting his role of being provider, but he's putting on an apron and taking on the woman's role.

Like, you see what I mean? So, it's like, that's adding insult to injury. That's even worse than the situation that Paul has in mind.

So, you have a spineless man who's not only not doing the thing he's called to do, but then he's, you know, engaging in transgender role -ism, essentially.

Right? So, you take a man and, like, you put him into a woman's job and he's not going to do it well.

He's not going to do the woman's job well. He's just, it just looks awkward. It looks embarrassing. And a lot of people just couldn't understand that basic point either.

It's honestly pretty, you know, like I said earlier, it's a pretty jarring position to take to say that, you know, a passage like this, a passage like this doesn't count for the guy who is performing the woman's role.

Right? Because for all the reasons you've said, right.

Yeah. I mean, it's bizarre, you know, and I think that a lot of people, they just couldn't. So, like, if you look at a situation like that, you look at a man doing a woman's job, like you should cringe.

Right? Right. Yeah. I mean, it feels embarrassing. It feels like a shameful thing.

It's like, you imagine a guy sitting around all day long, holding a baby, doing dishes, you know, folding the laundry.

And then his wife comes home and is like, how's your day, honey? You have a nice day at work.

I mean, it's so emasculating. It's so painful. It's so like, it's so cringeworthy, you know, but then

I think what would happen is you'd have like people who would come along and then they would think, well, if you make fun of that guy, then you're trivializing the woman's role.

That's kind of the response they have. Like you're trivializing the woman's role. Like, so basically if it's a joke that this man would do the woman's job, if that's such a big joke, then aren't you really mocking women right there?

Right. Like, aren't you really, but, but the issue is it's like, no, like you're not. Like, and this is something that it's just like almost impossible to get people to understand who are predisposed to not want to understand it.

But it's like, you're talking about two totally different things here. Right. So like in the same way, like if you look at Dylan Mulvaney wearing a dress, prancing around like a, you know, six year old girl or something like that, like that's deserving of mockery, but in mocking like Dylan Mulvaney, you're not mocking women who act like women.

Do you understand? Right. Yeah. Because that's what they're like. Yes. So like, they're like that, you know,

I mean, women are women and they're made to be women, but then like, I mean, certainly like you've seen like the pictures of pictures online where, you know, the ladies are engaging in like the, you know, the girl poses or whatever.

And then you have a guy come along and like trying to make the poses or whatever. Yeah. You have like the, the dad trying to embarrass his, you know, teenage daughter or something and he does all the same, the same pose, you know, the sorority squat and duck face.

And it looks weird. It looks like unnatural. What's going on.

So, but then the issue is, it's like, well, if you laugh at the guy doing that, right. And the guy's doing all the glamor pose, like the glamor facial expressions or whatever, like, you know, are you laughing at the woman doing it?

It's like, well, no, I mean, I think like what you're not doing is you're not making fun of women in that way.

What you're, what you're acknowledging is that two people are made for two very different things. So, like a man is not made for beauty in that way.

And so, if he tries to do it, it just looks like a caricature. Right. And so, in the same way, it's like, it's the same kind of thing where, like, if a woman tries to act tough, like, you know, a woman cop, you know, one of our followers, like I was trying to make this point about how unnatural it is for like a woman police officer.

And they shared like a video of a lady cop who was basically trying to be tough with this old man and, you know, pushing this old man into a car and the old man's like, you know, wasn't having any of it.

You know, she's telling him to sit on the ground like a child or whatever. And it was like, she doesn't look tough. Right. She's not made for this job.

It's like, she's making a mockery of being a police officer because she can't even restrain one old man here.

Right. So, like, so, but then the issue is like, it's the same thing is happening here. When you take a man who's designed for hard physical labor, it's like, you know, men have significantly more upper body strength than women.

Like you take a man who's designed for physical hard labor, like you have a, you have a man who's designed to subdue the earth.

Like so many, there's so many design features that are different between the design of a man and a woman. You, you put a man in a man role and he's going to look good doing a man job.

You put a man in a female role and you're going to realize, man, this doesn't fit. You know, this is a joke. This is like a comedy, like movie that we're watching here.

Right. This is like Arnold Schwarzenegger being the homemaker or something like that. That's, that's a joke.

That's not, that's not like, um, because it's just like, it's such a waste of everything that he is to, um, to get him to sweep floors or something like that.

It's like, you know, you should be dragging a truck somewhere. Right. No, he should be dragging a train somewhere.

I mean, but then you think about him, like sweeping up on the house. Right. It's like, well, that was a profound waste of all of that.

Right. So you've broke, you've broken like 20 brooms. You keep snapping them in half on accident.

Yeah. So that's, that's kind of the point. So you like, like a woman is designed to care for small children. The woman's designed to make a house a home.

Like she's designed to do it. You know, you can hang on. How dare you say that, Tim? It's like, it's like you're, it's like you're acting like women have, you know, even body parts that are supposed to help raise the children.

What's wrong with you, Tim? If the breastfeeding didn't give it away, you know, if the breastfeeding didn't give it away, then, you know, it's funny, like, even like, you know, women who are like significantly in shape, they're like, you know, 20 % body fat or something like that.

Over and against like men who are significantly in shape having like 1 % body fat or something like that. But then like, why is that?

Well, like, like that extra body fat percentage makes women like very soft. That's why, um, like men like to touch women because how soft they are, like that's the way it works.

And so, but then why, why would God do that? Well, because they're like part of it's yeah, to be enjoyed by men.

But the other part of it is like they make better baby holders than men, right? Like you take a guy with like huge, you know, steroid jacked up muscles holding a baby.

It's just like, am I going to crush this thing? You know? And that's like many men have that kind of reaction. Like, and, you know, and they have a difficult time comforting the baby because like, why wouldn't you feel like, like uncomfortable being like held by a rock, right?

So when you think about it like that, I mean, like women are designed to like, really care about like, like the home, be oriented towards the home, be oriented towards small children.

They're made to be sensitive. They're made to be caring. You know, you can imagine a man going in like, um, um, the child gets hurt, you know, like,

I mean, all the jokes apply. Like the child gets man pulls out the roll of duct tape, you know, like the issue is, it's not that men can't take care of children.

It's just that what that man's going to do to that child is like that man's the way he's going to take care of that child.

It's not like he's incompetent to it. It's just to do it. It's just going to be like, all right, you're going to get tough really quick, right?

You're going to get tough, no crying, no emotion, no nothing. Right. Eat what I tell you to eat, do what

I tell you to do, you know, it's like, I mean, so the standard kind of man can't just like step into that lady role, you know, and there's a place for that.

I mean, children need to grow up, but like the, the, you know, everything they need get both sides of that too.

Right. Right. Now, what do you, you know, what about the argument that, you know, this passage, it really does in a lot of ways, the, the person that's going to come to mind is the sort of the, the guy that you described earlier, the one who's just sitting, you know, sitting on the couch shirtless, playing video games, barely awake.

You know, he just woke up it's, it's 10 o 'clock in the morning, just woke up on a weekday that, that kind of lazy sort of good for nothing person.

Right. Now that I've seen many make the argument that, you know,

Hey, the, the dad who is at home. So, not that guy, but the dad who's like getting up early, he's staying home while his wife goes to work.

He's taking care of the kids. He's cleaning the house. You know, he's going to the grocery store. He's cooking all the meals.

I mean that, you know, he's not being necessarily lazy. Right. He's working.

And I mean, can't we say that that is providing for your family? Jared Well, it's not providing in the way that the

Bible is describing. Like meaning that men and women are designed, I guess, different tools that are designed to provide different things.

So, that's part of the problem. So, like, I mean, in the language of Proverbs 31, a woman provides like clothing for the household, right?

The woman is providing food for her household. So, like, meaning like, there's just different roles that each person is made to provide.

Right. So, the woman is a provider in one sense, a man is a provider in another sense. And so, like, that's kind of the issue.

So, like, the woman is taking the resources that the man gives her and doing, you know, providing, you know, food and clothing and everything else with it, you know.

So, like, it's just a man's job to put a roof over people's head. That's like a man's job, right?

So, Jesus says, I go to prepare a place for you that where I am, you may be also, right? So, yeah, it's a man's job to put that roof over their head.

And then it's a woman's job to decorate that thing, you know? Like, I mean, it's just like all the standard gender stereotypes are all in the

Bible, all over the place. So, like, the issue is not like that, you know, men only provide, women don't provide.

The issue is what are they meaning to provide? Does that make sense? Jared Now, yeah. So, I mean, a man can like be, like, the issue is, like, is there anything about, like, is there anything necessary about like a mom's interaction with young children in particular?

Is there anything necessary about her interaction as a homemaker and everything else? And so, part of what's happening is, like, the standard man is just not going to be nearly as oriented towards those kind of things, nearly as gifted in those kind of ways as caring for small children.

You know, so, I mean, a lot of that's just like the way that they're biologically made. You know, there's a reason why these jokes exist like when the mom leaves, you know, mom has to go shopping, dad's watching the baby, the baby spends most of the time crying, right?

Pete Yeah, yeah. Jared Well, the dad spends his time, you know, playing, you know, video games or doing things like that because men are just not nearly, they don't, like, so a lot of it's like men are just not nearly as sensitive as women, right, to these kind of things.

They're not nearly as nurturing, you know, they're not nearly as compassionate. They're not, so they're not designed to do these things in the same kind of way.

But then, you know, there's obviously, like, scenarios where you can have a man who just, like, throws himself into, like, all the effeminacy that he can muster and he, you know, he becomes that replacement mother for those kids, right?

Like, he can, like, so I'm not trying to say that that kind of situation is impossible, but a man can't do that. Then maybe, like, there's a hard, you know, woman who's been in the workforce her whole life who hasn't,

I mean, a lot of, like, ladies, they enter into the workforce and they train all their mothering instincts out of themselves because they're used to being around men so much and they start acting like men.

They have a child and they're just like, I don't even know what to do with this thing, right? So, I don't want to breastfeed the thing.

I don't even want to, I'm sick of it crying at me, right? I don't have any kind of compassion.

I don't have any kind of mothering instinct towards it. And so, a lot of, like, ladies, they've just, they've so embraced feminism, like, in that kind of way as an ideology, and they've thrown themselves into man works for so long that, like, yeah, the lines are blurring, you know?

And then, you know, society has emasculated so many men to the point where those men are more, you know, nurturing and caring.

And maybe you have a situation where the man's more nurturing than the woman, you know, even, and that's, like, contrary to their design.

But, like, you know, that could be the case. But that would be, like, so, part of it is, like, that would be like a scenario where, you know, you have, like, you can imagine, like, a police officer scenario where, like, the metrosexual man, like, makes for, like, the worst man cop that you can possibly imagine, right?

Pete Uh -huh, yeah. Jared Like, you can imagine, like, the metrosexual man cop, right? You know, who has the

Cara Dune partner, right? Like, I mean, that kind of freak scenario can happen, right?

Like, to where it's just, like, he's scared of every traffic interaction that they have and, you know, crying on her shoulder or whatever, and she's trying to help him to toughen up a little bit, you know?

And all that, I mean, that can happen, but that's just not God's design, right? Like, in the vast majority of cases, like, you know, the woman is not even going to be like that, right?

Like, they're just going to be the standard lady cop in the man role that, you know, is getting beat up by the thugs, right?

Like, that's what's going to happen. And then if you have, like, the guy who's just a complete and total wimp, it's like, well, maybe she has a little more courage than this wimp guy, right?

But, like, this is not the way the world works. So, part of it's like it, you just have to trust God that He knew what

He was doing by giving these roles. But even if you don't agree with all that, or even if you want to point to endless exceptions, the end of the matter is

God commanded it. Do you get what I'm saying? Pete Right. Yeah. Like, it should just be, you know,

I'm going to ask you a question here in a second that, well, you know, let me go ahead and ask you this because it is related to this.

So, you're talking about, hey, trust in the Lord. Jared Yeah, trust the Lord with all your heart, lean not under your own understanding and all your ways acknowledge

Him and direct your path. Pete Right, you know, like, His ways are higher than our ways, right? Like, He is the one who tells us to begin with what is good and what is evil.

You know, it seems like it would be pretty, this specifically seems like a pretty, you know, open and shut case given the verses we've read so far.

But then, you know, some of the pushback we got on this subject was related to, well, what about when the, you know, when the wife makes more than the husband?

So, say you have two people coming together, they were both working, the husband makes significantly less than the wife.

I mean, then isn't it okay then to, you know, let the wife work since she makes so much more money?

Like, let's just make it totally ridiculous. Like, she makes 500K a year and he makes, you know, 45.

I mean, isn't that like the exception? Jared Yeah, I mean, so, you know, does life consist of the abundance of things, right?

So, like, is there, is that all there is to it? You know, so a lot of people, they're only thinking along these things on one axis, and that's the axis of money.

And they don't have a category for what I just said, like trusting the Lord with all your heart, not leaning on your own understanding and all your ways acknowledging

Him and you'll direct your path. I mean, my wife and I, we made a decision early on that she was going to be a stay -at -home mom and I was going to provide and I didn't have, we didn't start off marriage with me having like a wonderful plan, provision.

I had two Bible degrees, no backup plan. And, you know, God's always just provided a way for that to happen.

And it's not been easy, you know, it's been hard. At times it was more difficult sometimes than other times, but like God, you know,

God blesses faithfulness. So, I mean, you just trust Him and like, you have to sacrifice, you know. So, like the

Bible says, no one can serve two masters, right? You can't serve God and you can't serve money. Like you can't serve both at the same time.

You have to really believe like that it's better to, you know, suffer in the here and now in order to obey

God. So, like you lay up for yourself treasures in heaven, not treasures on earth. You don't want to -

Petey And I mean, isn't that like a pretty obvious, like, hey, this glorifies

God. Like I turned down 500K to be able to follow what

God is saying. Jared Well, I mean, yeah, no one who's like giving up houses and lands and properties for like God's sake. Well, I mean, like anyone who's done that, that will receive more in this life and then even in the next life to come.

So, you know, God acknowledges that no one can be my disciple unless you count the cost. And there's often costs, you know, and some of that cost might be some of the stuff now, you know, and we'll get back at some point.

So, some of it's that, but then I do think that like when people, part of what's happening is people are not thinking about this topic along every single axis that they should be thinking about it.

So, thinking like in very narrow ways, like meaning, so like if money is the only consideration, then obviously, all right, we'll do what makes the most money, right?

So, my wife has a 500K job and do that. The problem though is like if you actually look at men who are stay -at -home moms, everyone has like the same kind of reaction, even you're not allowed to say it, but everyone knows.

Like you just feel very embarrassed and very humiliated for that kind of guy, right?

Like it's just so cringeworthy, like you just want to like, there's just no way, like it's the same kind of thing where Dylan Mulvaney is prancing around as a girl.

Like any normal person just looks at that and just like, this is not pretty, right? This is just embarrassing.

Like this is just like, I feel humiliated for you, right? Now, but imagine like the same thing is happening when a guy takes on a female role.

It's just emasculating. It's like totally like, how do you respect that, right?

So, but then like the issue is, all right, so the same thing is happening in both directions because the man's not made to do that role.

He just looks like a clown doing it, right? But then when a woman does it, it's glorious. Like it's glorious when a woman does what she's designed to do.

It's glorious when a man does what he's designed to do. But when a man does what a woman is designed to do, the only way, like either he's going to be the worthless video game kind of guy, right?

Or he's going to be like really throwing himself into that role and like looking like a effeminate, like disgusting person, right?

Yeah, loser. So then what happens on the other end is when the woman throws herself into the man job, she looks equally unattractive too, right?

So like, you imagine like this, like soft, doughy man who taking on these women jobs, you know, wearing his apron, you know, as he's cooking, you know, and all that and doing all the house.

I mean, I was saying that like men like look emasculating cooking, but like in order to do this role, you end up looking very odd, right?

Like if your whole role is devoted to, I mean, you know, the kind of guy you're talking about, like the kind of guy who doesn't wear his shoes in the house, right?

And it's like sitting there like on the ground, like with Indian style, like talking to kids on their level kind of guy, like, you know, like, so that guy is not attractive.

Now you put that guy next to the boss, babe, like woman, who's the executive or whatever. She doesn't desire him.

She's not attracted to him and he's not attracted to her. He's scared of her, you know? So like you, like, so meaning like you, you put those people in those kinds of relationships and it's like, you're giving the, you know, like suppose where you're giving the what she wants to work and all that.

I mean, lady, lady doesn't want to work. So like, like, like the, the issue is like, she, she's told she needs to in order to feel okay and feel whatever.

But then like most ladies, they're not handling 50 hours a week, 60 hours a week. And all the gender pay studies show that kind of thing that like you think about what's actually happening there.

Like they're not, they're not willing to work as long hours and as hard hours as men in order to get ahead because they're pulled towards this domestic stuff.

And so what ends up happening is you put that woman in that situation. She's going to like, she's not meant to bear the load of provision.

She's not meant to bear the load of all the stress and conflict at work. You know, that everything hangs on her, that the whole family like is depending on her to bring this money in week in and week out.

And so she's, you know, she's tired, she's exhausted. She's whatever this man is just kind of like, you know, he's there, you know, he's doing his job.

But like he feels emasculated. So like he's depressed, they're depressed, they're both depressed. You put them, you put them together and it's like, it doesn't make for happiness even in this life.

But then like the issue is, is say, Hey, you reject all that, right? And here's kind of your point.

Like if you reject all that, you don't agree with all that. You don't think that those generalities hold true. You can't see what

I'm talking about here. Well, whatever, just do what God says, right? Let him be God. You're not. So the

Bible says no one could be my disciple unless he deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. You know, why do you call me

Lord? Lord, if you don't do the things that I'm going to say that I say, right? So Jesus is Lord. That's what it means. He's Lord.

He calls the shots. So like the reality is you do what he says. Everyone will be benefited. That wife will be benefited.

That husband will be benefited. The family will be benefited a thousand ways beyond what I can even describe. Everyone will be benefited.

But if you don't believe that, just do it anyways, just let God be God. And you'll realize that you can fight this, you know, you can fight this thing, but it's not good for everyone, you know?

And I mean, the reality is like the divorce statistics bear it out. When, you know, the woman makes more than man, the divorce rate is like 50 % in that kind of scenario.

So all these things, I mean, it's just a train wreck in every single way and people just, you know, and that's kind of what happens when you just don't understand that men and women are different.

So in these passages, are we to understand that Paul means women can never work like a job outside of the home?

Jared Yeah, I don't think that that's, you know, people often will point to, you know, the

Proverbs 31 woman, she goes and considers a field and she, you know, goes and purchases it and everything else.

And so like the predominant, like there's some dishonesty that's happening here. And it's one of those things that's very difficult to respond to in a short one sentence kind of thing.

So the gatya is, hey, look, she does more than working at home. She goes and she considers a field and she buys it, right?

You know, she sells her goods. So she makes these, you know, clothing for her own household and then she makes more and she sells them, you know, in the marketplace and everything else.

And so look, she's industrious. Pete She's got her Etsy business, man. She's got, yeah, but so like the thing about it is, like the thing is that you have passages like Titus 2, you have passages like Proverbs 31, you have passages like 1

Timothy 5, you have like all the narratives in the Bible where all the women are, you know, like Jesus hails the woman, right?

And then she gets up and she starts serving him, right? Like, so all the passages in the

Bible are speaking to like a woman's primary role is to be a worker, like to be domestic, right?

So like the issue is like, if you look at the situation we have in our society right now, the question is not like, is a woman allowed to bring in any money into a house?

Or is a woman allowed to ever work outside the home or anything like that? I guess she allowed to go to the market and sell her goods or whatever.

Like, that's not really the question. The question is like, what is she primarily called to do? Does that make sense?

Pete Yeah. Yeah. What is the most important thing that has to get done every day? Jared Yeah.

What is the essence of being a wife and a mother? Well, the essence of it is being a homemaker.

That's the essence of it, to make a home, right? So like, that's what she's doing. That's like the thing, right?

So now, like when you live in a society right now like ours that has like microwaves, that has refrigerators, you know, that have stoves, washing machines, dryers.

Yeah, there's a lot to homemaking that has been made a lot simpler now, okay? But the issue is like, no, you're not going to be able to work a 50 -hour a week job as a woman with small children and be domestic and not have your kids raised by a babysitter or school, right?

So like, the issue is like, can you work outside the home? Maybe to some extent, you know, but probably what that's going to look like is you having an

Etsy shop, you know, something that's like extreme, like that you can do in the context of your home that also blesses you financially, right?

So like, if you're making your kids clothes, so to speak, right? Make a few extra, sell them on Etsy because you got good at it.

But that's not taking you away from what you're called to do. That's just an extra thing you're doing to bring like beyond what you're called to do, right?

Right. And it was, you know, it was enabled by you doing what you're supposed to do to begin with, right?

Right. So now like, if you're going to work outside the home, like the issue is like, someone's going to have to be those kids' moms for you.

Someone's going to have to pick up that slack for you, you know? I mean, there, there are situations where, you know, a dad can like, you know, dad has a stay at home job, a mom has a stay at home, or, you know, maybe, maybe the dad has a stay at home job that has some flexibility in his schedule, and she can take on a shift somewhere and everything else.

You know, all those things are true. I mean, but there, I mean, there are real temptations and that you're not allowed to talk about.

But I mean, there's very real temptations and dangers that come from women working outside the home.

I mean, adultery is like higher than it's ever been, you know, since the advent of women entering into the workforce, because, you know, you have the guy who has his work wife and the guy who has his home wife, right?

And like, you know, so a lot of these things, like you could argue for these things in the abstract, but then when you think about like the actual consequences of the kind of things you're saying, it's like, yeah,

I'm going to send my wife out to a bunch of, like to work alongside a bunch of unbelieving guys who are going to be constantly trying to flirt with her, you know, nonstop.

Like, what do you think is going to happen with that? You know, what do you think? Do you think that's good? You know, so like when you think about like the reality of the kind of thing that we're even talking about here, a woman's primary job is to be a homemaker.

And if somehow she can figure out how to add additional like income without neglecting her primary thing, without like handing her kids off to be raised by other people, then fine, right?

Like, fine. Like, there's no like prohibition against that, but like, it's just baffling to me that people just can't see the main point here.

Pete Last question I'll ask you, what about a situation, you know, where a guy is trying to, you know, like put himself through school or something where he's not necessarily being a stay -at -home dad, right?

But then he's not working the normal amount of hours, like a full -time job.

Is that still violating this command that Paul has given or does that fall more in like the, you know, veteran that got his legs blown off or the guy who was fired and he's looking for a new job?

Jared Yeah, I mean, this is a common question that seminary people face essentially. And it's a question that I really had to think through.

So, I mean, in my last year of seminary, there was, so I went to seminary for two years, and then

I did like an internship, like a year -long internship as kind of like a break, where I was taking very limited classes in there as a counseling internship.

And during that time, I was reacquainted with my, you know, soon -to -be wife, but, you know, we had known each other before that.

But like during that time, we got married and then she was going to come back with me to seminary for my last year.

And my plan was, you know, because I hadn't really thought through all of these things like I should, my plan, like I thought just kind of the way that you're saying there that like, well,

I mean, yeah, I want her to be a homemaker and all that, right? I want her to be a homemaker. But like, it'd be nice if she could like work full -time while I'm in seminary for this last year and free me up so that I can finish this last year of seminary and do that.

So she could take on the role of provider temporarily, you know, because it's not really that big a deal, right?

So it's just temporarily she's going to take on the role of provider, you know, for me and, you know, be domestic and all that.

So she's going to do double duty for just to help me get through school for the greater good, you know, kind of thing, right?

But then I think like very, like it didn't take long. Like it took about a month of us trying to figure out how to do that kind of thing to where I realized that like, what am

I doing? You know, like God's called us to be fruitful and multiply the field, the earth and subdue it.

And here we are just like entirely stressed out trying to prevent a child and then having her having to bear the entire weight of putting all the food on our table, you know, like in an environment she's never been in before, like trying to work a job, you know, that's just like, we're just moving up here, right, randomly.

So there's all this pressure being put on her. You need to find a job that's going to pay for all of our bills while I go to seminary.

And then, you know, like we're going to deny all these, you know, God given purposes of having babies and everything else temporarily, you know, and so she went on the birth control pill and, you know, it made her crazy.

I don't recommend anyone go on birth control, you know, but I mean, it was just a big, like it messes with women's hormones in a pretty big way.

And there's all these side effects and, you know, there's like a real concern about like whether or not it's abortifacient.

So like we're thinking through, is this abortifacient? Like she's going, like it's messing with her hormones.

She's being the provider there. You know, I'm sitting there working seminary, like being largely unavailable, you know, as a, like, because it's just so much work and so much time.

And then there's all this pressure put on her to do all this stuff, like be a homemaker, be a full -time worker, be a new wife, you know, and then she's denying all the baby itches and then birth control is messing everything up.

And it's just like a big train wreck, a mess, you know? And at some point I just thought, I need to obey

God now, right? Pete Yeah. Jared God says if a man doesn't provide for his own household, he's abandoned the faith, he's worse than an unbeliever.

And that kind of stuck in my mind to think, I need to do that now. I can't just put that off. It's not okay just to say, hey,

I'm not going to do that for a year just for the greater good or something like that, you know? So for me, I mean, like,

I just thought, well, I'm going to have to do it, you know? So I'm going to work full -time and I'm going to, or I'm going to, I need a job, you know?

And God gave us a job. We limped along. It wasn't, you know, as easy as what my current plan would be, but you know what?

Like I could handle 10 times better being a provider and bearing the load of all that than she could, you know?

So, I mean, it just like, it was like, it's one of the most counterintuitive things that people would think is just to say, like, you take that on while you're a full -time seminary with all the things that,

I mean, seminary is a beast, man, you know? Like with all the things, like, it was the most counterintuitive thing in the world to say, yeah, you still need to be a full -time provider and she still needs to be like domestic and, you know, and then, yeah, but we got off the birth control.

I did that. She got pregnant, you know, it was great, you know? God provided every separate, no one died, you know, we all lived, we all had food on the table.

We didn't miss any meals and it was just like, yeah, I mean, yeah. So we started off life a little bit hard, but God provided everything we need.

So, I mean, I think the issue is, yeah, people can make all those kind of justifications if they want.

And I saw all my seminary friends making those kind of things and they worked out about the same as it did for me, you know?

Like, it was, I mean, you know, and they, you know, and I just told them, hey, you guys just, you need a man up, just, you know, I need a man up, you need a man up, we all need a man up, just -

We all need a man up, man. We all, like, you know, and it's just like, just do it, man, just do what God tells you to do, quit fighting all the things

God tells you to do and then just let Him take care of it, you know? And so, you know,

God will take care of it. Okay. All right, well, I think that's a good place for us to wrap up the conversation on.

And, you know, like we said at the beginning, at least for me, this is just sort of a jarring, it's very strange to see people even advocating at all, you know, for stay -at -home dads, given the

Bible verses we've discussed. So, you know, this is, and the statistics that you read were,

I mean - Jared Jarring. Pete Yeah, I mean, just so, that's so concerning, you know, to know that the numbers are, you know, 2 .1

million or whatever it was you said, and, you know, 14%. Yeah.

Like, those are insane numbers. Jared Yeah, I mean, this is going to be coming to a church near you.

Pete Oh, yeah. Yeah. And so, obviously - Jared And we don't have answers to these things. We don't, you know, we haven't thought through it.

Pete Right. And so, you know, that's why we're having these conversations in order to get, you know, try and give people answers, give them a true biblical perspective that's not going to be trying to, you know, cater to the current zeitgeist of our society or, you know, put you in a situation where your number one love is money or, you know, physical possessions or something like that.

And, you know, encouraging men and women to take on the roles that God has designed them for and not apologize for it.

And then, you know, the good thing about doing that is you end up benefiting from it, right?

So, God's commands are good and they lead to good things for us. And so, you know, that's the purpose of this conversation and hopefully it's given people out there, you know, our hope is that you take these things and you take the things that you've learned from this and you share them with your friends, you know.

It's fine to point people back to us and say, hey, listen to these guys, but then we want you guys to be able to have the conversations with people yourself and disciple them that way.

Call out sin the way that it needs to be called out for the reasons that it needs to be called out with the specific

Bible verses that back it up, right? And, you know, for others who might not agree with our stance, the hope is that you hear what we have to say and, you know, think through your actual position and realize that it is actually contrary to the

Bible and obviously so. So, you know, with all that being said, we appreciate all the support we get from you guys every week.

We appreciate the interaction online. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel.

You can go follow us on Facebook and Twitter. And if you want to support us financially, you can do that on our

Patreon page. All that stuff is linked down in the description below. Until we see you guys again.

This has been another episode of Bible Bashed. We hope you have been encouraged and blessed through our discussion. We thank you for all your support and ask you to continue to like and subscribe to Bible Bashed and share our podcast with your friends and on social media.

Please reach out to us with your questions, pushback, and potential topics for us to discuss in future episodes at BibleBashedPodcast at gmail .com

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Now, go boldly and obey the truth in the midst of a biblically illiterate world who will be perpetually offended by your every move.