Wheaton College's Polarization and Peacemaking Event Continued

Conversations That Matter

Subscribe

Download

Share

00

00:18

Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. I'm your host, John Harris. We have a lot to talk about today.

00:25

Uh, it really it's one thing, but there's a lot of material there and it is the Wheaton College panel discussion slash, uh,

00:34

I don't know what you call it, an event. They had some presentations and a panel discussion. Uh, it wasn't a conference though.

00:39

It was just one night, but we're going to talk more about it. I did a video or maybe a week or more ago now, and I talked about the,

00:50

I reviewed the first part of this, the first presentation by a national security advisor or former national security advisor,

01:00

Ms. Newman, who I thought was fairly imbalanced. We'll put it that way.

01:06

She started talking about how January 6th and 9, 11, or, you know, they're, they're comparable and, uh, exaggerating what happened on January 6th and then blaming

01:17

Heartland Christians who listened to Rush Limbaugh for carrying this out.

01:22

I mean, it was just, it was bonkers. And of course, Wheaton college is a conservative, well, supposed to be.

01:28

I would argue it's probably not anymore, but supposed to be a conservative, evangelical, you know,

01:36

Orthodox theological, uh, seminary and a safe place for you to send your kids.

01:41

And alternative, this is the thing. Parents send their children who are now young adults to these places and they pay large sums of money to the tune of tens of thousands, sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars, and sometimes the students are paying themselves.

01:58

I mean, you know, that's what I did with my parents. They helped pay for transportation and I had to, well, actually what was it?

02:05

No, they covered my tuition the first two or three years. I can't remember. They helped cover my undergrad. Uh, but I had to pay for gas anyway, whatever the arrangement is, it's a lot of money and you think when you're going to a

02:17

Christian institution, you're doing it because you are, you, you are immersing yourself in something different.

02:26

Otherwise you wouldn't go to a Christian institution. I mean, what's the point, right? You would just stay in a secular institution.

02:31

That's probably cheaper. A state school. Uh, that's what I did. I went to a community college first and then went to a state school and, uh, it is cheaper, uh, depending on your major, but there are advantages to going to a

02:44

Christian university. And I did that for my MDiv and my, my MA. So I've seen kind of like both sides of this and I can see advantages and disadvantages, but I think a lot of parents think that they're safe when they send their kids off.

02:56

And one of the things that they think they're safe on is political. Left woke social justice, that kind of thing.

03:05

They don't want their kids coming back as a social justice warrior. They think they're safe sending them to a Christian college. I don't think that's true.

03:11

I don't think that's true at all. And I've talked about this many times, but Wheaton college is just one example of where this can go wrong.

03:21

And, uh, this event is an example of that. It's not even remotely. They're not even trying.

03:27

I don't think to be balanced. Maybe they think they are. Maybe they legitimately, that'd be crazy to me that if they thought that they were balanced in this.

03:34

Um, I don't even know if that's actually, I do know that that shouldn't even be the goal, but if, if you are trying to maintain some kind of objectivity and say.

03:43

We are balanced at the very least, right? Using that as a baseline, right? Forget the fact you're a Christian university and you would assume the voters who 81 % went for Donald Trump, the people who sending their kids there who are going to be conservative leaning, you're going to lean, you would think leaning conservative would be part of even trying to, uh, to actually infuse some balance into the educational system as a whole and maybe cater to your customers, but, but, but let's say like, you're not even doing that.

04:13

You're just saying like, we want Republicans, Democrats, conservative, liberal, whatever, to be represented equally here.

04:19

And, uh, it's not even that it's so lopsided. It's ridiculous. Like it's, it's pretty much only critical about ironically conservative

04:29

Christians, which you think are the ones paying for Wheaton and founded Wheaton and that they would love. Right. But that's not the case.

04:35

And it hasn't been the case for a while, but a lot of people still don't know this. So, uh, we're going to talk more about this event. Uh, before we get to that though,

04:42

I want to play this for you. There's, there's a few advertisers, uh, that I want to let you know about because Christmas is coming.

04:49

So the first one is, uh, mudhead mama, mudhead mama actually has curated lists of books that you can buy.

04:58

This is good for Christmas for students or your children of various ages, from kindergarten to high school and different levels, different genres, but they've gone through and they've tried to give you a list that isn't going to have all that social justice stuff in it and Darwinian stuff in it and is friendly to Christianity and will help build character and those kinds of things.

05:21

So, uh, check them out and about what your children are reading. Mudhead mama understands how difficult it can be to find books that align with your family's values.

05:31

That's why they carefully curated a collection of books for the whole family, from preschool to adults. Mudhead mama offers an alternative to traditional book fairs, selecting books that celebrate truth, beauty, and goodness with a wide range of genres, including classic literature, biographies, historical fiction, and more, their mission is to provide literature that fosters character and virtue in readers of all ages founded by Michelle laser mudhead mama is committed to empowering, guide their children's hearts and minds through thoughtful, faith -filled reading choices for families looking to fill their shelves with hen mama .com

06:08

today and discover the perfect book for every reader mudhead mama, where literature meets faith and values without the

06:14

Darwinism critical race theory and liberal agenda use the code Harris to get 10 % off your order.

06:20

Go to mudhead mama .com today. Oh, there's no audio.

07:39

Okay. Well, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I had it muted. Sorry about that. Um, no sound ever since your ad.

07:46

All right. I'm glad the ad came through at least. So. Uh, that's good. I was worried about that, but I turned off my audio while I was playing that.

07:53

And I guess I forgot to turn it back on. Okay. We're back. So I wanted to let you know too. I'll shorten this about a book called heed the pilgrims on socialism and critical race theory.

08:01

Obviously the pilgrims didn't write about critical race theory, but, uh, being Nathaniel Sullivan, who's a friend of mine, he has,

08:08

I think what he's bringing to this, um, is this mindset that the pilgrims had, which is antithetical to socialism.

08:15

So check it out on Amazon. It's called heed the pilgrims on socialism and critical race theory. I just wanted to let you know about that.

08:22

I told him I would plug it on the podcast. And since we're already talking about books, uh, then we'll, we'll throw that one in there as well.

08:29

All right. Well, uh, okay. Now that this, thank you. The sound is on John Toby has confirmed, uh, that got everyone's attention.

08:37

We are now on all cylinders and ready to go into the subject at hand.

08:44

Um, I'll tell you what we're going to talk tonight. I'm not, I'm going to save this. We're going to talk tonight about Dan, uh,

08:50

Daniel Penny, the full acquittal that he just went through. That's going to be on the American churchman podcast.

08:57

We're going to talk about maybe some other things too. I just noticed there's a small town in Alabama that a court has.

09:04

Essentially said they need to require in their town, the

09:10

LGBT group that has trans people and all the rest, uh, to March in their Christmas parade. And it struck me that it's interesting in New York city, very liberal left leaning area, right?

09:21

They, uh, they had a jury and they, well, they had a trial and Daniel Penny is acquitted.

09:26

And then you go to rural Alabama or small town Alabama, and they're forced to have

09:34

LGBTQ organization. Participate in their Christmas parade.

09:39

And this country is so divided. It's just so divided. And the election of Donald Trump doesn't really change that.

09:46

It's we're continuing kind of where we were. Uh, I think not to give my, all my predictions.

09:53

I think there will, some good things will happen, but we're still in this very divided place where you have deep red places where, uh, the left has made inroads you have.

10:03

Um, but now, and I think this is a positive bell development. You have some blue areas where, you know, this should never have been a trial really.

10:10

I don't think, but you actually, for once, wow, got some justice and it raises questions about where's the

10:16

BLM movement now I was expecting. If that happened, right? Like we lived through 2020 riots on the street and stuff.

10:22

We're not seeing that. So we'll talk about that more tonight. I just wanted to give a plug for the American churchmen, uh, as well.

10:28

But on that note, on that vein of BLM and critical race theory and wokeness and all of that, there are some

10:35

Christian institutions that are still very much committed to trying to reconcile themselves with the, uh, you could call it the hegemony if you want, but the, the ruling class that leans very far to the left.

10:50

And Wheaton college, I think they're an example of this. I've talked about them before they came out.

10:56

I think it was in 2020 with, uh, a very DEI infused diversity statement.

11:03

And I talked about it on the podcast. I haven't said a lot about Wheaton, although behind the scenes, I've had people from Wheaton tell me what's going on there.

11:12

And some of it's frankly a little shocking, but I haven't said much publicly. And so I wanted to say a little bit more publicly, and that's where we're going to talk about the second half of this presentation today.

11:24

Uh, and, uh, this presentation, let me, let me actually just pull it up. So people can see what

11:31

I'm looking at. And this is from right after the election is when this happened. And Wheaton college, of course, one of the big conservative, uh, well, people think

11:42

I have to put an asterisk by that people think conservative, um, uh, universities out there.

11:51

It is, uh, the name of the event. See if it'll come up, Elizabeth Newman and Caleb Campbell polarization and peacemaking what's next.

11:59

That's the name of the event. Uh, and you can go watch it for yourself. If you want at the website, this is what it looks like.

12:11

No, not that's an advertisement, but this is, uh, this is the page for it. So you can go check that out.

12:18

Now, um, we already went over Elizabeth Newman. We're going to talk now about Caleb Campbell and we'll start in on his presentation.

12:25

Here we go. So much for having me. So I serve at the church that I met the

12:31

Lord at in 20, excuse me, 2001 met the Lord at desert Springs Bible church.

12:36

Uh, I got asked to play the drums and now I'm the lead, now I'm the lead pastor. So we had a, a great lead pastor transition in 2015.

12:47

Uh, my predecessor served there for 30 years and it was an amazing transition, uh, one of the best that I know of.

12:53

And I became the lead pastor just in time for the golden escalator thing.

12:59

You guys remember that? Uh, Donald Trump, uh, descended from his golden escalator to announce his candidacy for president.

13:07

And I remember thinking as lead pastor in Phoenix, Arizona, yeah, he's not going to win.

13:12

Right. I, I had, uh, uh, spent most of my pastoral career, uh, under the Obama era at the time

13:18

I was thinking, all right, Hillary is going to win and nothing's going to change in my church. Uh, as a congregation in a suburban

13:26

Phoenix, we had been active in things like caring for immigrants, uh, refugee resettlement, uh, even, uh, hard conversations about racial reconciliation.

13:37

And I thought we're just going to keep doing that. We're a classical evangelical church that leans into a high view of Jesus, a high view of the

13:45

Bible, personal conversion experience and social action. And so again, I'm stepping into the season in my first year as lead pastor thinking

13:53

I knew what I was getting into the day after the election. I pulled into our church parking lot and two of my teammates, staff members were in the parking lot crying.

14:04

Then I went into the office and two of my other teammates who are staff members were in the office celebrating saying, praise

14:12

God, hallelujah and whatnot. And I remember thinking this is going to be harder than I thought. Uh, fast forward to 2020, which so far has been the worst year of my life.

14:22

I got COVID in June of 2020. We're going to keep playing this, but I want you to notice, uh, the way this is all framed, this is supposed to be about political polarization and finding a way through it for Christians, peacemaking in that.

14:38

And the way he starts this is the election of Trump is the initial step in this train of events that has given him a problem and not just him, but pastors throughout the country, churches throughout the country, they're being ripped to shreds or being ripped into.

14:56

And why are they being ripped into and torn asunder? It's because of Donald Trump. It's because of this event that happened.

15:03

Uh, Obama years, fine. You know, Hillary year is going to continue to be fine. That's the mentality of so many, uh, of the leaders in evangelicalism.

15:14

I'm telling you now, just listening and studying and being even in institutions of higher learning that are evangelical, the upper class in many of these areas, and there's many exceptions, but by and large, the upper classes in evangelical institutions, they favor stability, just like managerial elites in other institutions, they favor stability.

15:39

And for them, Obama into Hillary would have been stability. It would have been, uh, the status quo, keeping things as they were.

15:48

I mean, he was just talking about, they were already involved in refugee resettlement. So maybe they were getting money from the government.

15:53

It's very possible to, uh, resettle refugees. And this upset the apple cart.

16:00

And if you remember in 2016, this was a big deal. Uh, Russell Moore was, uh, one of the ones that once carrying the torch.

16:09

And at that time he was still at the Southern Baptist theological seminary, I believe, uh, for, uh, the election of Trump being a big problem.

16:18

And a lot of it did have to do with that. It had to do with a refugee resettlement. And I know Megan Basham has done more work on that and showed how

16:25

Christian organizations were getting money for this kind of thing. And the spigot was turned off under Trump.

16:32

And it's one of the things you just saw with Trump being reelected again, Russell Moore and David French on a podcast saying,

16:38

Hey, we just really need to support world vision right now. Why are they saying that? Because world vision was one of the big organizations involved in refugee resettlement.

16:46

So all that to say that there was a, uh, a spoil system at work,

16:53

I believe. And I don't know specifically what was happening at desert Hills Bible church, but, uh, if they weren't involved in this, many were, and there was benefits from being under these liberal administrations.

17:08

And it is seen as the default, even without that added benefit. It's just seen as the default.

17:14

This is, these are what the experts want. This is a rule by experts. These are the people that have gone to school and they know how to govern and they can do it adequately and competently.

17:26

And Donald Trump is this blithering, uh, embarrassing, uh, rich guy who has a working class temperament though.

17:36

And he, he just, we don't know if he's going to, you know, push a button and a nukes going to go off.

17:41

We just don't. It's the same fear that a lot of the people that are secular elites have. It's no exception in the church.

17:47

It, you just have to get it out of your mind that the leaders in Christian institutions are that different.

17:54

They may use different language. They may use Christian ease. They may know how to give a good testimony.

18:00

Uh, they may even be able to exegete a passage, but I'm telling you so many of them still have the same fears, the same mentality, the same allegiance to the same.

18:11

Uh, class of managerial elites, the same, uh, uh, they, they, they put blame in the same place when there's division.

18:20

Uh, so, so Hillary's not really responsible for this. Uh, it, it's not the

18:25

Democrats who are responsible. Trump is the one bringing the division. Because I'm an early adopter.

18:30

Uh, I got shingles in July and then facial paralysis in August. So the whole right side of my face was paralyzed.

18:38

Uh, and I remember going to the emergency room, uh, cause my face was paralyzed and the doctor said, have you been under any stress lately?

18:47

And I said, yes, uh, I'm grateful to God. I got about 85 to 90 % of the, the nerves grew back in my face, but I still carry with me some of that paralysis as a memory of that season.

19:00

And the stress that the doctor was asking me about was primarily around the emotional, physiological, and spiritual stress of leading a congregation as it was tearing itself apart.

19:12

Uh, 80 % of the people who were in our congregation in 2016 were gone by the end of 2020.

19:19

Many of them had re, uh, chosen to redeploy to other congregations that were propagating, out loud and in public, uh, versions of American Christian nationalism.

19:30

In my community in Phoenix, uh, there are, uh, multiple organizations that promote American Christian nationalism that are headquartered there.

19:37

And there are now dozens of now mega churches who have grown and they've stated that their church growth model is promoting a version of culture war and American Christian nationalism.

19:48

And so as a pastor in that environment, watching so many of my, uh, fellow congregants, people that I loved, mothers and fathers in the faith, uh, not only were they leaving to go to other churches, but they were making sure that I knew that they really were not in line with the things that our church was doing, which for me, in my imagination was status quo.

20:10

We had talked about caring for immigrants in 2012, 2013, 2014. You know what people, you know how they would respond?

20:19

Yay. We did the same thing in 2017 and I've had people come up to me in the lobby.

20:25

Some of the people who were there in 2013 and 14, and they'd put their fingers, you know that thing where people take their two fingers and they push into your sternum?

20:32

That ever happened to you? You're, I'm in the lobby and they're pushing their fingers into my sternum saying, don't you bring that liberal propaganda to the house of God.

20:41

I said, what are you talking about, Ethel? The immigrant stuff. We got to send them back.

20:47

Are you talking about the people we share communion with? Moreover, conversations about racial reconciliation were met with some of the same resistance as some kind of,

20:58

I remember someone. Think about this. If a pastor loses 80 % of his congregation, that should spark some serious self -reflection.

21:07

There are good reasons for that, but if you've been at a church for that long and that happens, that's scandalous, right?

21:13

I can see someone coming into a church, shaking things up. The church has been in a bad place. This is different.

21:19

This is someone who's been there and didn't see any type of split on the horizon.

21:25

What happened was Trump was elected. That's, that's what happened. And he loses 80 % of his congregation.

21:31

And from, from his vantage point, I think here's the thing. If you go through that and you want to save face, because it's embarrassing, frankly, you really do need to come up with a good reason for it.

21:43

That puts you on the moral high ground. Uh, otherwise it just seems like you were the problem.

21:50

And so to, to say that all these people, 80 % went to Christian nationalist churches, these dangerous places, uh, that, you know, gives you the moral high ground and it puts the blame on the people.

22:04

And you don't have any responsibility in the matter as the shepherd. So, I mean, from his vantage point, all the, all these sheep, you know, going off, getting lost.

22:14

And where is the attitude? This is, I guess, my question. Where's the attitude of the shepherd? If that's truly what he believes, who genuinely cares and is sorrowful and just views this as a tragedy.

22:26

And, um, I, I would expect more self -reflection. What did I do? How did I contribute to this?

22:32

I would expect a lot more sorrow. These are people I loved and now they're under this false teaching.

22:37

Of course, I don't think, I don't believe what he's saying, but if that's what he believes, then that's what I would expect. But instead, what you find is an attempt here to let's blame the sheep.

22:46

And I think that's what's happening at Wheaton too, in this whole event, is it's a blame the sheep type of event. The sheep that created this institution, sheep that probably primarily still fund this institution.

22:57

Um, it's, it's odd. It's one of the few groups that really seems to love. I mean, like white people in general seem to love this.

23:05

Um, there's a certain class of males that like this. There's, uh, Christians who, who self -proclaimed

23:12

Christians who seem to like this when they get to go to events and it's like, they pay their penance or they feel guilty or something like, like they get to hear about how bad their group is.

23:21

Um, a lot of other groups don't do that, but this is something that I've noticed.

23:27

Evangelicals do this an awful lot. Like they, they blame themselves, but it's really not blaming themselves. Right? So they, they actually get something out of it.

23:33

They feel good because what they do is they blame their group, but then they separate themselves from their group. So it's all these ignoramuses, divisive, uh, bigoted people that are

23:44

Christians. But look at me, I'm the one who's not like that. I'm the good Christian. I am more reconciled to the mainstream feeling on things.

23:53

That's not crazy, but look at all these people, 80%, right? I mean, that's pretty close to the 81 % that voted for Trump.

24:00

I mean, those are the crazies. Those are the ones that they're, they're in error. Uh, we're not right.

24:06

So it's this sort of elitism. I didn't really understand this completely until I read a book years ago on, uh,

24:13

Nazi prison camps. I know I remember the name of it, but in the book, there was a whole, uh, section on how.

24:22

When, uh, Nazi, uh, commanders would put, often they did this, put, you know,

24:28

Jewish people in charge of work details, they would be crueler than the

24:33

Nazis themselves would be to their own countrymen, to their, to their, to their own, you know, nationality, very odd, right?

24:40

You wouldn't think that would be the case. Wouldn't the natural inclination to love the familiar cause them to be easier on their own road?

24:48

Cause they're trying to prove something to their overlords. And it's an interesting dynamic, but that's what

24:54

I'm telling you. That's what's happening here. I believe, and it's been happening for years. They're trying to prove something.

25:00

They're trying to separate themselves and prove where, where the ones that you want to make alliances with and back, because if you're in charge and you have resources and you're elite, and you're concerned about these evangelicals who elected

25:14

Trump, I'm your guy, right? I'm your guy. Referring to our conversations about, uh, cruciform racial reconciliation as promoting an atheist agenda.

25:25

I'm like an evangelical pastor. I don't think I've ever promoted an atheist agenda. I don't think I could if I tried.

25:32

And so what I found was not only their resistance to these, um, initiatives that we were engaging in and teachings we were engaging with, but the people that were choosing to redeploy to other congregations.

25:45

It seemed to be that there was this power structure underneath that was causing them to think

25:52

I was their enemy. And in 2020, it hit a peak and I was toast.

26:00

As part of my therapy the following year, my counselor asked me to spend a whole day just going for a walk.

26:06

So I walked around the park and they said, write down the names of broken relationships as they come to mind. And so I did.

26:13

And at the end of the day, I had over 300 names of people that I counted as friends, confidants, mothers and fathers in the faith, who now

26:22

I'd become their enemy because we had, to my mind, maintained course, even though they had given themselves over to this, what seemed to me to be toxic tribalism, kind of this culture warring combativeness that was really stirring up within people a deep anxiety and rage.

26:43

Okay. Hopefully there's some culture warring going on. If you're a Christian, you should be opposed to at least the world and the things in it.

26:52

And right now there's a lot of things to be in opposition to. So, but, uh, if I lost 300 friends,

26:59

I would be doing some serious self -reflection and I wouldn't think, well, it's just, uh,

27:06

I mean, we're talking confidants. He said, you know, mother, I mean, I, first of all, that's huge. That's a scale.

27:12

Like how do you have that many close friends? But if I lost close friends like that, they just abandoned me.

27:18

I was their enemy now overnight. Something ain't right. Some is very wrong there.

27:24

And, uh, I, I would not be assuming it's necessarily all on them.

27:30

I would be the common denominator in that scenario. And if these are close friends that care about me and even they see that there's an error and want to separate from me, then

27:39

I, I'm going to have to ask myself some questions. Um, you know, I understand obviously relationships and, and, and there's good reasons to take moral stands and lose friends, but a little excessive here.

27:51

And, uh, and, and in his mind, he didn't change. He didn't do anything different. That's an odd thing too.

27:57

Cause I, I don't know his church specifically, but I know a lot of churches that are in this similar, they think they're in the similar bind where, uh, it's a complaint you'll hear a lot with a woke pastors.

28:10

They'll say like, I've always been talking about racism, or I've always been talking about, uh, immigrants and treating them well.

28:17

And, and, and now all of a sudden people are upset at me for it. And there's two things

28:22

I think going on in most of those cases, number one, conditions have changed. And so I think a lot of people have realized as conditions have changed, what was actually going on, what their pastor was actually saying.

28:35

Um, a lot of guys who follow Tim Keller like this, I've talked to them. They, they say, oh, I've been in his church.

28:41

I was a member. I was there since the early nineties. I was there for, uh, I think when he started like the early, yeah, 91 or something like I was there from the beginning and I never heard him say anything woke.

28:50

And then I will point out, well, he was on the social justice train the whole time. Here's the evidence.

28:57

And they're like, well, I never heard any of that. And there's examples from his sermons in the nineties where he's doing that.

29:02

So part of it is you can't, you hear like you, you don't expect, you don't suspect your pastor to be carrying water for the godless left.

29:13

And so you hear it with a very charitable and sometimes inaccurate ear. And you think you translate what he's saying into what you think he should be saying.

29:22

So if he says, uh, we need to welcome immigrants and we need to provide help for them.

29:29

You hear it as not a statement about political policy. You just think as a church, you should be, uh, in general, open and caring and loving and those kinds of things.

29:41

Well, when the conditions change and immigration gets bad and you're losing your job or the crime goes up or the city becomes more trashy or, you know, whatever the case is that the circumstances have changed and you see the.

29:56

Sacrifices your parents and grandparents made get spent on welfare for people who didn't have parents and grandparents here.

30:04

You start thinking this is a problem and you start hearing what your pastor is saying, and he wants to welcome in more immigrants and he starts and you realize what he's doing and he is signaling left.

30:15

He doesn't want there to be perhaps the deportation of illegal migrants.

30:20

He doesn't want ICE to be doing that or border guards to be doing their jobs. And you ask for clarification and you don't get it.

30:28

I mean, this is usually how the rigmarole works. You try to go through the, all the steps and the pastor's vague and doesn't want to upset the apple cart.

30:36

And so it becomes a point of contention and the pastor doesn't think he's changed.

30:42

Maybe he hasn't, but circumstances have changed. Oftentimes though, accompanying this is a legitimate change that the pastor doesn't realize.

30:49

He thinks he puts into the category of something like caring for immigrants, all these political policies and things.

30:56

And he thinks that when he made general statements about it, he was incorporating all of that the whole time and how that those issues are really on the line.

31:05

Well, I, you know, I've been talking about this. Well, not in those specific terms. So oftentimes

31:11

I'm just skeptical of what this guy's saying. Oftentimes that's how this works. And there are changes that took place.

31:17

It's not just Donald Trump was elected and look what happened. Now, I have a question for you.

31:22

Thanksgiving is coming up. Has the thought occurred to anyone that there might be people at the

31:28

Thanksgiving table that you hope that they don't open their mouth and that you're right now, even maybe you've spent the last week coming up with a backup plan on how to exit the table if Uncle Jim starts on that talk track again.

31:44

If you haven't, you might be the person that someone else in your family is thinking about as the person that they're trying to create a strategy around.

31:55

We're doing this and we have been for years, the last few years, especially because the temperature continues to rise as Elizabeth is noticing this extremist behavior.

32:05

It's not just in statistics. It's not just nationwide. It's at the Thanksgiving table. It's at the communion table.

32:11

And so what I want to invite you into is just to spend a few moments thinking about how we can best love our polarized neighbor.

32:18

I want to give you some real tactical ways, methods that you can deploy as you think about how can

32:27

I love my polarized neighbor. Galatians 6, 1 and 2.

32:32

I'm not very familiar with Wheaton College. You guys do the Bible here, right? Is this like they do Bible stuff here?

32:37

Okay. All right. So Galatians 6, 1 and 2 in June of 2020. I lost it. I got to go back and find where we were.

32:44

Sorry about that. All right. So you do the Bible. He says we do Bible stuff here. All right. I wanted to say that gives them away as well.

32:54

I would normally say that gives someone away as a youth pastor when they start talking about the word of God in such a casual fashion.

33:02

I don't get it, but I've heard this kind of talk a lot. I was actually listening to a podcast the other day and I was realizing it was four guys.

33:09

And I'm going to spare the embarrassment. I'm not going to say who it was. These are guys who were, they were woke and now they're coming out of it.

33:17

I'm really grateful for it. But I was realizing some of the things they talk about and the way they talk about it. Men don't talk about that stuff in that way in any other environment that I've been in.

33:28

It's very effeminate. Some of what I was hearing on this other podcast. But I think the reason is because there's this cavalier attitude about serious things.

33:40

It's almost as if there's this assumption that when things get too heavy and talking about the

33:48

Bible and Christianity, especially if you're like this guy, you're aware that these are polarizing things.

33:54

In order to kind of let off some steam and let people know not to be afraid if you bring the

34:02

Bible up, you have to make a joke, make it kind of, I don't know, act like you're ignorant of the

34:10

Bible when you're a pastor, for goodness sake. You had one job. You should know this.

34:16

You should understand how to interpret it. That's your role. But you want to relate to the people who might feel awkward and it makes everything awkward because you act like you don't know what you're talking about.

34:28

It's another weird thing. And I don't see that. I'm not trying to be too hard because I understand it's one offhanded comment, but this attitude keeps coming up and it is a curious thing.

34:40

Most solid pastors I know don't do that kind of thing, but it's kind of a youth pastor thing.

34:46

That's where I've usually seen it. And anyway, maybe I'm being a little too, let me know.

34:53

Maybe I'm being too judgmental. Maybe I'm looking at it and I'm like one of his 300 friends that would abandon him or something.

35:02

Oh, someone just said that if you have 300 friends, that might be a problem. Yeah, that is a scale issue.

35:08

I figure I've had a lot of friends, but goodness gracious. All right, well, let's keep going here and we will see what he has to say about Galatians six and I guess loving others.

35:24

One is what's the word right there? Can you guys see it? If someone is overtaken,

35:31

I want you just to get an image in your mind of someone who is overcome or overtaken.

35:37

You got it? If someone is overtaken in any wrongdoing or another way to say that is evil, you who are spiritual or another way to translate it as spiritually mature, you who are spiritually mature, do what?

35:51

Don't you hate that? Because Uncle Jim, when he opens his big xenophobic mouth, you know what

35:56

I want to do? I want to destroy. But this says if someone in your midst, if someone is overtaken in any wrongdoing, you to restore such a person how?

36:12

Come on. With a how? I don't want to do that.

36:21

With a gentle spirit. Now watch this now. Watching out for your own self, lest you too be tempted.

36:29

Watch this now. When you think about ministering and loving your polarized neighbor, 98 % of the work is in me.

36:38

It's my own derision. It's my own familial shame. It's my own rage.

36:43

It's my own anxiety. The Lord here has given us this word because he knows us that when we seek to minister and restore those who are overtaken in any evil or transgression, we've got to be about the business of watching out for our own self.

36:59

If we meet rage with rage, if we meet anxiety with anxiety, we will only be propagating evil.

37:06

Okay, after belittling and attributing bad motives to 80 % of the people that left his church and 300 close friends apparently who have dropped him and not taking any of the responsibility, now he wants to let you know that 98 % of the responsibility for the polarization lies with you or the person who is trying to restore this person who's in sin.

37:38

Now, the other thing I guess I'll mention aside from the fact that he's trying to say that you have to be the bigger person.

37:46

You have to be gentle while these people aren't gentle. So he's further kind of putting them off in the corner and taking the moral high ground saying, presuming we are the spiritual ones, right?

37:58

We're going to restore the xenophobic uncle. He does assume that these guys, and again, we haven't broken context.

38:06

He's still talking about Donald Trump, 300 people weren't friends with him, 80 % of people left his church.

38:13

Those guys I guess are in sin because that's what the passage of Galatians is about. If someone is overtaken and they're overwhelmed, they are tangled up in a sin, then those who are spiritual are supposed to restore such a person.

38:33

So a gentle spirit, but we know that this also could and sometimes has to include admonition and correction, right?

38:43

He hasn't argued that there's a sin going on. He just assumes it. And then he does this weird, just in my opinion, it's odd, role reversal thing where he's had the moral high ground, but he wants to frame it like he's the one that needs to be humble and gentle and it's not them, it's him.

39:09

And if they are going off and there's polarization because they're ranting and they're in sin, it's still, it's on him to be the gentle, to be the bigger man in this, right?

39:22

The switcheroo in my mind is because he just got done just slamming these people. So how is that, where's the gentleness?

39:31

It's an odd twist. Let's just listen to what he has to say.

39:38

This seems like just very basic, love your neighbor type stuff, but his application is to MAGA people.

39:50

And so in order to seek to restore with a gentle spirit, we got to watch out for our own selves so that we're not tempted to give into that.

39:57

And then I love this, therefore, and I'll use the translation I'm familiar with, therefore bear one another's burdens and thus fulfill the law of Christ.

40:07

For 10 ,000 Bible trivia points, does anyone know what the law of Christ is? Jesus was asked to summarize the law and Jesus said, the law is summarized as follows.

40:20

Love the Lord your God and love your. Loving my polarized neighbor involves me carrying a burden of the distance between me and them.

40:35

When they say that thing, that racist, xenophobic, right?

40:41

Patriarchal, whatever that thing is, bigoted thing that they just said, I'm carrying a burden of the distance between me and them.

40:51

Moreover, I'm going to watch out for my own self, which is also a burden. Loving our polarized neighbor involves carrying a burden because they are caught up or overtaken in a wrongdoing.

41:03

I live in. It sounds like a guy who goes to therapy.

41:10

Yeah, you're, you're carrying the burden of their sin,

41:16

I guess, is what he's saying. The consequences, I'm assuming, of their sin is, is affecting you negatively in this case.

41:25

There's no mistaking what these students at Wheaton College who came to this event are hearing about. They're hearing about the fact that Donald Trump and the people that voted for him and were excited he won are a bunch of racist bigots.

41:37

He should have qualified it if that's not what he said. Because in context, that's what we're talking about.

41:42

I don't see a way around it. And this is after we've compared January 6th already to 9 -11. This is after saying that a bunch of heartland

41:51

Christians who listen to Rush Limbaugh are capable of carrying out a civil insurrection of some kind, and they are dangerous.

41:59

And, and we follow it up, not with someone who gives a counterpoint, but someone who just drills down even deeper on that whole narrative.

42:08

All right. Well, let's, uh, can we, let's fast forward here for the sake of time. Um, let's see if there's anything interesting here.

42:18

Uh, missionaries are students of culture, he says. Uh, are you, oh, this, this ought to be good.

42:24

Missionary or colonizer. Let's see what he says about this. The culture.

42:29

So good students, excuse me, good missionaries are students of culture. When you hear

42:34

Uncle Jim say that crazy thing at Thanksgiving dinner, instead of meeting rage with rage, you could do something like this.

42:42

Uncle Jim, tell me a story about why that matters to you. When, when you hear people say that,

42:48

Uncle Jim, um, what do you think's going on inside their hearts? Just simply trying to study what they're saying.

42:58

Oh, I love this one. You know the difference between a missionary and colonizer? A missionary, a good missionary, wants you to meet

43:06

Jesus and live out your Jesus faith according to however Jesus has wired you. A colonizer says you should live out your

43:13

Jesus faith like me. And so when we're studying a culture, if we're finding that derision is welling up inside of us, judgment is welling up inside of us, that's an opportunity and invitation for me to practice

43:28

Galatians 6, 1 and 2, which is watch out for my own self. I live in the land of American Christian nationalists.

43:35

And if my heart is that folks stop eating at Cracker Barrel, that's because I've taken on the posture of a colonizer, not a missionary.

43:46

And so we want to check ourselves and make sure, okay, I don't just need you to be like me. I just want you to reconnect with Jesus.

43:53

So we're going to. Your Jesus faith.

44:03

There's the youth pastor lingo again. Not Christianity, your Jesus faith. He's been pretty specific on what's outside the bounds of Jesus faith here.

44:16

Voting for Trump sounds like it could be part of that. These you would have to say he's insinuating that he he really wants to get down on this racist uncle.

44:29

Someone Michael pointed out, why do they never rebuke Uncle Pedro, who is part of La Raza for his xenophobia?

44:35

It's only Uncle Jim and his support for Trump. Yeah, I know, because Uncle Jim is a standard white guy.

44:43

It sounds like if it's his uncle, I mean, I don't know his family makeup, but Uncle Jim sounds pretty safe.

44:50

Like that sounds like a racist uncle right there, right? Yeah, it's not Uncle Pedro. Funny enough, if you do any.

44:57

Like service work, which I did for years in people's homes, you will find out fairly quickly if you're paying attention that.

45:08

And I'm not saying this is across the board. There's many exceptions, but. White people in general tend to.

45:18

Be fairly open people like they obviously there's different regions.

45:25

I've only done it in New York, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, so that's where my experience is limited to.

45:31

But they. They tend to be very fairly open people like they'll have cultural artifacts from other cultures decorating their walls.

45:41

And they seem to me at least more open to. Just and this is obviously

45:48

I don't have stats in front of me. This is just my own observations more open to multicultural arrangements and adopting kids who don't aren't white and these kinds of things and.

45:59

I've sensitive in their language choices. There's exceptions here, but. I've noticed that it's a lot of ethnic minorities that I've worked for that don't tend to have that as much.

46:11

Not trying to paint with like a huge broad brush, because I know there's so many exceptions and I don't

46:16

I don't want to like give the impression that like I'm accusing all minorities of this kind of thing, but it is funny that it's always

46:23

Uncle Jim in these scenarios. It's always this white uncle who voted for Trump. Who's the problem? And the shoe is not put on the other foot, like maybe some of the people coming here could be bigoted.

46:33

You ever think that? I mean, they are illegally in coming. They're invading your country without following your laws like I don't know.

46:40

Could that be a problem? Could that be someone caught up in a sin that needs to be confronted? Could that be something to be concerned with?

46:46

And maybe part of the corrective process is making them comply with the law by deporting them.

46:51

Could that be restoring, you know, in a spiritual way? Your brother, if potentially your brother is a Christian and breaking the law.

46:57

I mean, I'm just saying like maybe there's other ways to look at this. Now it's always Uncle Jim.

47:03

Ah, yeah. So and you're a colonizer. So if you're a colonizer, this is crazy to like eating at the Cracker Barrel is this reminds me of who's it?

47:12

Karen Swallow prior. I think it was a few years ago who talked about that. And I think then

47:17

Phil Vischer got in on it, that Cracker Barrel was right wing coded and it created this whole dust up about like Christians and going to Cracker Barrel.

47:27

And he sounds like he's tapping into that and saying, like, well, if I had my druthers, people wouldn't go to Cracker Barrel, but can't colonize.

47:35

But but you can apparently tell them about their political views and how bigoted they are. Oh, my,

47:42

I I don't think this is the guy to take advice from personally, like lost 300 friends, and he's going to tell us how to be the peacemaker with all these people.

47:52

I'm just saying you lose 80 percent of your congregation. You have all these friends that don't talk to you anymore.

47:57

And I just don't know if you're the guy I want to listen to when it comes to figuring out how to deescalate and peaceably, gently restore brothers who are apparently have separated from you.

48:12

And when the scale is like that, I'm I'm just saying I'm just saying maybe find someone who hasn't had 80 percent of their church leave and 300 other friends abandon them and then ask them how they did it.

48:24

How did you navigate this? You're on a different political side, but you've retained the relationships that might be the good person to talk to, not the guy who seems like failure would be an understatement.

48:36

Failure would be an understatement in my mind with that kind of a track record. Oh, man.

48:42

All right. Yeah. Cracker Barrel, the place of the unreached heathens. That's right. That's right. That's what Cracker Barrel is.

48:48

I don't know if we can take much more of this, but we have to. We have to. We're not an hour in yet. So we're going to keep going.

48:56

Let's table setting versus table flippings. A lot of this stuff is just so. I don't.

49:03

Now he's got a chart. It's a pyramid and it's got transparency, feelings, opinions, facts, cliche.

49:10

I'll just tell you what he's doing here with the feelings thing. He wants to engage people at the level of their feelings and be transparent and open and personal.

49:20

And let's just get a cup of coffee, Uncle Joe or Uncle Jim, and that and that'll kind of neutralize them so you can talk to them about their sinful, racist xenophobia and Trump support.

49:36

Here's the thing, though, the passage he's drawing from in Galatians isn't talking about that. If he wanted to use a passage, he probably should have used a gentle answer, turns away wrath, heartward, stirs of anger or something like that.

49:47

I don't know. But the passage that he's referring to is actually talking about restoring someone who is needs repentance, who is in a in sin directly.

49:59

And the restoration requires you to point out that they are in the wrong.

50:04

It's not a let's tippy toe and like try to, you know.

50:12

Engage them on the level of their feelings and how, you know, get into the nitty gritty of why do you feel that way that that actually comes after there's an initial confrontation.

50:22

I mean, maybe they could come at the same point, but. It's talking about gently confronting someone gently showing someone, hey, you're in sin, you need help.

50:35

You're caught in this. I'm going to help you. I'm going to pull you out of it. OK. He's using an approach that, frankly,

50:44

I think of, I associate more with children, to be honest with you, like when a child's crying and like you try to like distract them from it by getting like, why do you feel that way?

50:54

And and and then they they forgot what they were crying over. And it's you have this personal conversation.

51:03

It's not a masculine approach. I'll put it that way, too. For a pastor, a shepherd, look, your sheep, if you really think your sheep is about to go off a cliff, get the rod, go over there and grab it may hurt a little bit.

51:14

Do it as gently as you can. That's kind of the point. That's why Paul has to say you got to do it gently, because normally when you're correcting someone and they're in sin and you're calling them to repent, you know what?

51:23

It hurts. You can't avoid that. I should probably just play this and not humble subversion.

51:31

OK, all right. Let's do it. And this is called what I call humble subversion. In my book, Disarming Leviathan, Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor, I give dozens of case studies of how you can have these conversations, regardless of what the thing that came out of their mouth is.

51:46

We want to take that conversation from the space of facts and opinions to the spaces of feeling and transparency.

51:56

Feelings. Yeah, this is exactly what I was talking about. He is approaching it the way a therapist approaches it.

52:03

That's our hope. That's our invitation. And where am I getting this from, you might ask? That's a great question. Thank you for asking.

52:09

This is what Jesus was always doing. People would come to Jesus and say things. They would say facts and opinions to him, sometimes even requests.

52:16

You want to know what one of the frequent questions Jesus asked people is? What do you want?

52:24

He's asking heart level questions. So humble subversion goes something like this. Shared values.

52:30

I don't see a scripture referenced by that. And I don't always require them.

52:35

I don't always give them. Jesus didn't always give them. But what are you talking about, man? In the context of someone who is actually in a legitimate sin, and Jesus is going to restore them to repentance.

52:49

That's the question he asked. I can't think of one example of that off the top of my head. I'm just I'm wondering where he's getting it from.

52:55

I'm not saying they're. I mean, I've just studied the rhetoric of Jesus for a presentation I did a month ago, and I was actually blown away by how harsh he was at times.

53:06

And a lot of the rhetorical devices he used where he answers questions with questions are attempts to avoid traps that the

53:14

Pharisees are trying to put him in. And instead, he traps them. I mean, it's just brilliant the way that he handles those things.

53:20

But I don't recall him when someone was in sin and Jesus looking at him and saying, what do you want?

53:27

I mean, the closest I can come up with is the rich, young ruler. And Jesus does challenge his priorities.

53:35

You know, you have to go sell all you have, give to the poor to follow me. And but that's a direct.

53:41

Again, that's a confrontation and a command. That's not like, what do you want? I mean, it should prompt that question,

53:47

I suppose. But this guy is just he's I don't know where he's pulling this from, but he's he's pulling it.

53:54

We're going to engage in shared values, shibboleths and red. We're going to speak shibboleths and avoid red flags.

54:00

We're going to honor the good. And then we're going to engage in humble subversion. Let me give you one case study. And then I'll bring up my friend

54:06

Vincent, who's going to meet us in a Q &A time. Shared values. Uncle Jim's at the Thanksgiving table.

54:11

And he says that thing about 25 ,000 drug dealing rapists storming across the border. How do you feel when he says that?

54:21

Probably a certain way, right? So remember, we're going to watch out for our own selves. We're going to go to the

54:26

Lord in prayer and say, Lord, only 25 ,000 with the drug thing, at least. I mean, it seems like a pretty conservative estimate.

54:34

I think it's probably more than more than 25 ,000 doing the drug traffic thing, at least.

54:41

That thing Uncle Jim just said, I feel a certain way about that. Would you protect me from meeting rage with rage?

54:47

Would you guard my heart from meeting anxiety with anxiety? And instead, we might say to Uncle Jim, Uncle Jim, I love that you care about anxiety.

54:58

Like the word choice here, like anger, right? Like anger. You disagree with Uncle Jim on this point.

55:05

But it's welling up anxiety. And I don't get anxious.

55:13

That's the thing. Like, I don't I don't. This is not how men generally talk like. Yes, men get anxious.

55:19

But like when there's someone they disagree with politically, it's usually disagreement, anger at the position that person holds, wanting to fight it.

55:28

Right. Anxiety. I don't know about that. About our country so much that you would invest time in learning about how we can be safe.

55:41

Try that on Uncle Jim next time, Uncle Jim. I am so appreciative of the time that you put and invested into caring about our country, that you would learn about this issue.

55:54

I mean, you talk to him like he's in seventh grade. No wonder this guy lost 300 friends.

56:01

Uncle Jim knows he's being talked down to when that happens. Now, I might think he's totally off base with the factor opinion that came out of his mouth.

56:11

But I want to share a value that I think our government should do its job to keep us safe. And so I'm with you,

56:18

Uncle Jim. Remember when we approached that deer? We're trying to say I'm not your enemy. That's why we're going to speak shibboleth and avoid red flags.

56:25

Shibboleth is an old school. It's in the book of Judges. And it's basically a word. This is what you say to Uncle Jim, OK, if you disagree with him.

56:34

And obviously, I'm coming from the other side of this. Uncle Jim says, it's crazy. The Trump administration wants to deport these people that are just all good

56:43

Americans. And they're they want a better life here. I just can't believe how evil this is.

56:49

Blah, blah, blah. Right. And Uncle Jim says that. And what do you say to Uncle Jim if you if you think he's in sin for saying that?

56:59

And needs to be restored to repentance, which I'm not quite convinced of. Uncle Jim may just be a little ignorant.

57:05

Uncle, there may be other things going on here. And Uncle Jim has a policy disagreement.

57:11

I don't know. Like, I mean, it could root back into a sin, perhaps. But let's just say for the sake of argument,

57:16

Uncle Jim's in some deep sin here. He needs someone spiritual, man. And I guess I'm the guy. I'm the spiritual guy.

57:22

So I go to Uncle Jim. I say, Jim, I think what he's saying is a sin.

57:27

Say, Uncle Jim, I think you're wrong about that. But I agree with you that and then state what you agree with him on.

57:34

I agree with you that we should be compassionate or we should be understanding to people who are seeking a better life for their family.

57:44

That's what you say to Uncle. I'm just this is not even I'm not giving you biblical advice necessarily in the sense that I'm not giving you like a

57:51

Bible verse that says to do exactly what I'm doing. I'm just giving you some practical like how to talk to guys advice.

57:57

And I'm no expert, but I think I wouldn't lose 300 friends over that. But if I went to Uncle Jim and I just started saying now,

58:05

Uncle Jim, like go and waxing eloquent about how much he cares for the country when you totally disagree with him.

58:12

He'll just spot someone who's trying to cozy up to him and is, you know, ha ha ha.

58:20

Uncle Jim is is so dumb. Like that's that's how Uncle Jim is going to feel about it. If you approach it the way this guy is going to approach.

58:27

I'm just telling you, I know maybe he's got a different Uncle Jim than my uncle. I don't actually have an Uncle Jim. But if I did, my uncles would be like, what kind of a relationship do you have with your uncle, too, is the other thing like, like,

58:38

I could be honest with my uncle. I don't understand this. I heard that you would say that communicates I am an ally, not an enemy.

58:46

Here's a shibboleth. I think. But you're not. You just said he's in sin.

58:52

You just said the Galatians passages, Uncle Jim's in sin. So you have to be an enemy to him on that level, right?

58:58

Like an enemy to his sin. The government should maintain strong and healthy borders.

59:06

Here's the red flag. I believe that we should have a one world government, Uncle Jim.

59:15

Now, what a shibboleth does is it communicates I'm on your side. OK, some of this is basic and actually practical and good.

59:22

Like, yeah, you try to find common ground with someone. I don't know why you need a whole presentation for. I mean,

59:28

I guess you could do a good presentation on that, but it would be different than this. OK, so he let's get to the end of this.

59:35

Only the spirit of the living God can do that. And I'm simply trying to invite Uncle Jim to consider how

59:41

Jesus might want to speak to that issue. And so I would invite you as you're thinking about loving your polarized neighbor.

59:49

How can you show that you. OK, we're done. Your polarized neighbors, the

59:54

Trump supporter, Uncle Jim, that's the polarized neighbor. This event's not really about actually finding a biblical way through the polarization and people that are at odds with each other.

01:00:06

It's about blaming one particular political side for the polarization, putting it all on them and then treating them like they're in grade school.

01:00:16

And you need to go lecture them in a nice way that won't make them erupt because you can't be direct with them, apparently.

01:00:25

And yeah, that's pretty much it. So we are about an hour in. There is a

01:00:31

Q &A here. I don't know if I want to do this. Maybe let's let's just randomly for the sake of fun.

01:00:38

Let's go like halfway through this Q &A. Let's just see what they're talking about. One started me into the field and the other cause.

01:00:45

Let's see if we can find a question. How's that? All right. So here's the moderator.

01:00:51

Let's see what he has to say. And we'll see where they're where they're going. That's the story there.

01:00:58

The first part of the question was. Well, it's about the fact and Kayla, I've been interested in your answer to this as well.

01:01:04

I think basically is this is that so if you use the term white Christian nationalist, you say white supremacist. I think part of the problem is, is that there's ways that people talk about white supremacy.

01:01:13

At one level, people talk about white supremacy way. I mean, just depends what conversations you're in, like decades before this.

01:01:19

But it's the way that the discourse has gone, has been used.

01:01:28

What you're describing isn't necessarily the same thing that's being described. If somebody feels like you're just telling me that there's a problem with me because I'm a white person,

01:01:35

I'm a white supremacist. Right. So I think it's important. So how do we parse that in this in this environment where if we're going to have the kind of conversations that we want to have that are constructive, where we can say the important things that you need to say and name them for the things that they are.

01:01:55

Without falling into the people kind of going back and forth, what are you really saying?

01:02:01

Why are you accusing me of something? You know, a wall going up, etc. And you're able to have a conversation. Let me translate.

01:02:08

When you talk about white supremacy and you can you say it's part of Christian nationalism and attached to that, are you saying all white people are racist?

01:02:16

That's what he's asking. Yeah, so Caleb has a great answer to a great definition to the white

01:02:23

Christian nationalism, and I'll let him fill that in in a second. In my field, nationalism is one form of extremism.

01:02:31

So racial extremism is one form of extremism. Anti -government extremism is another example.

01:02:39

Nationalism is one of those. It doesn't in the United States has not resulted in too many attacks that the most nationalistic extremist violence we've seen has come from Puerto Rico.

01:02:52

There were some attacks in the 1970s and a few efforts sometime in the last 20 years.

01:02:58

But we have not seen a lot of nationalistic violent extremism. What we're seeing now, though, is different.

01:03:06

And you can be a nationalist and not be an extremist. But it's also true that one form of extremism is nationalism.

01:03:15

So the question that I am raising is when you have a movement of nationalism, populism is maybe another way to talk about it.

01:03:26

But nationalism is a political science term. It has definitions.

01:03:32

It has to do with wanting to draw certain cultural. OK, she she's not really answering the question.

01:03:42

She's waxing eloquent here. But a simple answer.

01:03:48

She's also sounds like she's contradicting herself. Nationalism is extremism. And then there's forms of nationalism that aren't extreme.

01:03:54

OK, she's still talking, man. I'm just fast forwarding this thing. She's still talking. Let's get to the end of the answer to happen.

01:04:00

Now, that might be vigilantism. It might just be the people or it can often be the state in the most extreme context.

01:04:06

It's the state that enforces that culture. So when we're talking about nationalism from the extremist standpoint, my warning is there are people who call themselves white

01:04:19

Christian nationalists or usually just Christian nationalists who are advocating for.

01:04:26

And a government enforced Christianity. Changing the laws, removing pluralism.

01:04:34

If you're a Christian, you get more benefits than other people. And those people have made lengthy treatises on why violence is

01:04:44

OK. They draw they take verses in the Bible and explain either why these verses don't apply, the verses of nonviolence don't apply, or why these verses are telling you you need to be prepared to fight.

01:04:57

That's a big warning sign to me. When you have people using scripture to build that moral justification for violence, it is a pathway for other volatile individuals to feel like.

01:05:08

OK, so there's no specifics given here. I'd be very curious. Who is she talking about? Is it Stephen Wolf? Is it

01:05:15

Andrew Torba? I mean, I'm trying to think of guys who have written books on Christian nationalism. There aren't many from a positive standpoint.

01:05:21

So who is she talking about here? And are there things worth fighting for?

01:05:28

She was a national security advisor. Of course, she believes that. That's part of national security.

01:05:34

There is a time for violence, right? Is it just when you're protecting? What is it?

01:05:40

Is it when you're protecting the liberal order? Is it when you're in a diversity setting? You can secure and maintain diversity.

01:05:47

You can use violence. What is it? I would love to cross -examine her. That's a strong word, but I'd love to just ask her if I could get a straight answer in less than five minutes.

01:05:59

Are there cases where it's permissible to use violence? I think everyone, maybe pacifists not included, but everyone who wants to have a government and understands there's threats realizes there's time for that.

01:06:12

If you want a police force, there's a time for that, right? So I don't know what she's talking about. We need more specifics, but she's being so general.

01:06:20

And then benefiting Christians. I don't know what that is referring to either. I do know there are guys who want to privilege

01:06:28

Christianity from the standpoint of even the government. In other words, they want the government to acknowledge the

01:06:35

Christian traditions and the Christian roots of the country or to acknowledge that Christ is the Lord. I mean, we already actually do this in some ways.

01:06:42

We still have some, you might think they're archaic, but you go into a court building, oftentimes you'll see in God we trust there.

01:06:49

They still swear on the Bible in many places. Years ago, I went to traffic courts and there was a judge there who opened in prayer.

01:06:58

I mean, this still does happen in some areas and we have Christmas trees and we have invocations and generally in small towns, it's

01:07:05

Christians doing those things, right? So does that mean Christians individually are being privileged over others or is it just a recognition that we are a

01:07:14

Christianized society? We're going to be something. So she wants multiculturalism, pluralism.

01:07:21

I maintain to you that that gives you the neutral ideas of figment.

01:07:27

You can't actually have it. You either usher in some kind of a humanistic approach that deifies man or some principle,

01:07:35

I suppose, or you're going to end up with an attempt to give everyone their equal share, their equal treatment and you're going to eventually have, one's going to dominate.

01:07:48

That you can't, you have to have a transcendent moral authority to justify the laws and the mores of a society. You just can't get away from that.

01:07:55

So anyway, this is, I can't do it. I can't do it anymore. In fact, I have other things to do anyway, so we're going to stop.

01:08:01

But the point of this exercise is that this is Wheaton College for Christ and His Kingdom. That's who put this out.

01:08:08

That's whose name is behind it. This is supposed to be an endorsed event that tells you about polarization and helps you to get peace in the times of polarization politically.

01:08:20

And this is essentially the response to Donald Trump being elected. And it is, at the very least, imbalanced, if you want to call it that.

01:08:29

But I just think it's showing that they have a very, it would be an understatement to say they have a soft spot for the left.

01:08:37

They are the left. Wheaton College is the left when they put stuff like this out there. And this is supposed to be good biblical advice for their students and others.

01:08:48

So I'll take some questions and then we'll end the podcast. Before we do, real quick, I want to let you know,

01:08:53

Christmas is coming up once again, about some of the best ranch dressing I've ever had. My wife actually was putting it in some,

01:09:02

I guess, wrapping paper for family. It is so good. And I'll have a little video for you if you want to know what my taste buds are tasting.

01:09:11

Looking far and wide for the best ever ranch dressing. I am excited to introduce you to Lori's Lunchbox, where they've developed the best buttermilk ranch dressing

01:09:20

I've ever tasted. Their buttermilk ranch is made with whole foods and chiefly organic, ensuring the highest quality and freshness with every taste.

01:09:29

Lori's Buttermilk Ranch delivers a rich and creamy flavor that will elevate any dish it accompanies, whether you're dipping your favorite veggies or dipping your hot and crispy fries or drizzling it over a crisp salad.

01:09:40

Lori's Buttermilk Ranch is sure to become a staple in your kitchen. When I first tasted her dressing,

01:09:45

I knew I never wanted to go back to regular ranch. I myself use it on both salad and pizza and impresses any guest in the

01:09:52

Harris home. I invite you to experience the difference that Lori's Lunchbox can make in your meals. Order now at www .lorislunchbox

01:09:59

.com. That's lorislunchbox .com. And when you first order at least five packets, please indicate in the notes section that you heard about them on the

01:10:08

Conversations That Matter podcast to receive a free packet of their Buttermilk Ranch. Happy ranching.

01:10:14

All right. Check it out. lorislunchbox .com. Use that promo code. Get a discount.

01:10:19

Christmas is coming. Okay, so someone said, John, don't you know that ranch is white nationals coded?

01:10:27

I know everything is coded. I'll take some questions, cries of outrage, conundrums, whatever you have.

01:10:33

Uh, I would be interested to know how many of his departing congregants are listening to Conversations That Matter.

01:10:39

Probably some of them. This is the type of guy that repents of sins. He hasn't committed to make other people feel better.

01:10:45

Yeah, that's a good way to put it. You mean to say, do you sit down with people that are not strong in the

01:10:51

Christian faith? I think this is referring to, uh, I'm not sure what this is referring to.

01:10:57

Actually, I guess this pastor should be able, okay, be able to talk with the church instead of being only able to speak with unbelievers without stirring them up.

01:11:05

Yeah, you'd think you'd have Christians be able to talk to each other. Why is it Uncle Jim who is xenophobic, not

01:11:11

Uncle Pedro? Okay, we already talked about this. Yeah, that is a good question. All right.

01:11:17

Ruth says, is Pepperdine supposed to be a Christian college? The students never mentioned prayer about this morning's

01:11:22

Malibu fire, which is still burning. It would have been a good testimony for the school. Um, I, uh, so I, I haven't done any deep research on Pepperdine.

01:11:36

I do know just cause I go back to California frequently for family that, um, when

01:11:44

I've seen advertisements for Pepperdine University, which is, uh, which is in Malibu, I believe it's, it's a beautiful campus.

01:11:52

I mean, it's just, it's on this Hill. It's overlooking the ocean, uh, in the

01:11:58

Santa Monica mountains. It is one of the most beautiful campuses and places to be in this country.

01:12:04

I kid you not, but that's not necessarily a reason to go there. Maybe it is.

01:12:11

Um, I seem to remember billboards for Pepperdine that explicitly were trying to signal how diverse they were.

01:12:21

So take that for what it's worth. I would look into it and just see their, if they have

01:12:27

DEI policies, if they have, uh, you know what they say about, uh, DEI.

01:12:34

And, um, a lot of them are trying to hide this kind of thing now, just like do searches for equality and diversity, see what comes up and you'll be able to find out where they're at with that.

01:12:43

But as far as, well, as far as Christian, though, that's the question you specifically asked me, you didn't ask me whether they were woke or not. You said, are they Christian?

01:12:49

I mean, they claim to be Christian as far as I understand. Yes. Uh, Ed Ellis, when a man's ways are pleasing to the

01:12:54

Lord, he makes even his enemies to be at peace with him. Yeah. Good proverb. Good proverb. How come this uncle

01:13:02

Jim character sounds much more sensible than the pastor? Josh says uncle Jim is based. Yeah.

01:13:09

Uncle Jim sounds like he might be a little more direct. Uh, uh, let's see.

01:13:15

Okay. That's it. That's it. That's the last question. Uh, one more comment.

01:13:21

This is like the X controversy in the reform world where one side accuses another of something and doesn't or won't define it as sin, i .e.

01:13:27

post -war consensus defenders, et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. You need to be clear.

01:13:32

If someone's really in a sin, you have to, it's important to let them know how they're sinning.

01:13:38

It really is because their souls, uh, it damages their soul and the people around them.

01:13:45

Even if they're Christians and they're on their way to heaven and all the rest, they have a blind spot like this and it's, it's going to eventually wind up in church discipline or at least it should.

01:13:54

So be specific about what it is exactly that they're sinning and use biblical language. Um, as much as you possibly can when you're doing that.

01:14:02

And I, I have seen a lack of that in some of the online discourse. I think you're a hundred percent right. Um, that's why, oh,

01:14:09

I don't know if it's public yet. I got to check it and see if it's public. I was going to say, speaking of defining sins, well, it's not public.

01:14:18

I don't think yet. So I don't think I can share it, but there is a statement coming out later today.

01:14:29

I'm trying to figure out if it is public. It's called the statement on natural affections statement on natural affections.

01:14:38

Um, but I wasn't supposed to put the link out there. So I'm not giving you the link. I'm just telling you about the statement until it's live.

01:14:45

So I don't know if it's live, but anyway, that's the name of it. Statement on natural affections, a statement on racial ideologies, threatening the church.

01:14:52

And there was an attempt in this. I assigned it. Actually, there was an attempt to be specific, uh, on a lot of these things.

01:14:58

Uh, I think it's much better than the, uh, Antioch declaration in my humble opinion.

01:15:04

So you can go check that out. If you are, uh, listening to this on the re -record or the re -record, no, the, the rerun, whatever.

01:15:14

And it's already out there. Then you can go check it out. But all right. With that, God bless.

01:15:20

Uh, more come in tonight. American churchmen at, I just saw a message from Matthew.

01:15:26

I think he wants to do it at six 30. So Lord willing, uh, six 30 is when we'll do that. We'll talk about this