Mormon Missionaries Caught Lying

Apologia Utah

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Bro, did I just see a miracle from God? Or did you guys lie at the beginning and say he doesn't speak

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English? I don't know if you'd be able to get into a discussion. Would you be able to tell us how we can be saved according to the

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LDS faith? How could we have eternal life? Oh, he's pretty new.

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He's learning English. He's from Tonga. Oh, wow. So he didn't really understand what you said.

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They want to talk to us. You're just learning

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English now? Yeah. How long have you been here? Not too long.

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Oh, okay. Do you speak his dialect as well? Just a little bit. Just a little bit? You're trying to help him?

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Yeah. How long have you been a missionary? I've been out for not too long.

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About three, almost four months now. Okay. And where are you from?

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I'm from Hawaii. Hawaii? Oh, wow. Okay. Right on. You, uh, what island?

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The Big Island. Okay, cool. We have a church that's been on the island of Kauai. Wow. That's cool, man.

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Yeah, so, um, so yeah, would you be willing to talk with us yourself?

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I mean... I can talk for a little bit. We're kind of on a schedule, but I can talk for a little bit. Yeah. Cool. Awesome, man.

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I'm Andrew, by the way. Hi, Andrew. I'm Elder Pacheco. Wade. Wade. Jared. Jared. Nice to meet you guys.

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And this is Elder Tulepe Kikiko. Yeah, we, uh, so yeah, we just like to come out here and get into discussions with our

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LDS neighbors, whether they be, you know, you guys in missionary uniform or just people walking around in different shops.

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You know, we think back to the time where, you know, we used to be able to challenge each other in our beliefs as a society.

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You know, we've come to the place now in life where, you know, we're not willing to talk about politics or religion or anything like that because people are always so, you know, afraid or they're easily emotional or get angry or whatever.

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And so we're just bringing it all back, man. We are here to talk about, you know, some of the differences that we see, you know, things like, you know, in LDS doctrine,

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Jesus was created in pre -existence, but the Bible shows that Jesus was not created, that he is

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God. And you have things like God is, God has eternally progressed.

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He was once a man and now he's become God. And then the Bible shows that in Isaiah 43, 10,

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Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. So we see these doctrinal differences.

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And so we just like to discuss it and see what you guys say about it and everything.

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Sure. Well, yeah, we got like five, maybe 10 minutes.

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Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever time you have. So, so, yeah, let's, let's go with, let's go with like the deity of God, that God, that God is one.

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So the Bible says in Deuteronomy chapter six, Hero Israel, it's called the

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Shema. Hero Israel, the Lord, our God, the Lord is one. Right. And I read,

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I told you Isaiah 43, 10, there's Isaiah 44, 6. It says, you know, that there's only one

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God. So there's, there's basically from the prophets of Mormon religion, there's been prophets who have said as God, as man is,

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God once was, and as God is, man may become. That's prophet Lorenzo Snow.

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And, and there's the prophet Joseph Smith. He says, you have imagined and suppose that God has been

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God from all eternity. He says, you've imagined that, but I will refute that idea and take away the veil that you may see.

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You've got to learn. Eventually, he says, you've got to learn to become God yourself. That's in what's called, you can look it up on les .org.

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It's called the King Follett discourse. So basically it's, it's the idea that of eternal progression.

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And the, the earliest doctrines don't just say, I've heard

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LDS neighbors out here say, you know, we can become like God. We'll become, why wouldn't our heavenly father want us to become like him?

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But, but they, the doctrine takes it a step beyond that. It says that if we go, if a man goes through all the steps and makes it to the celestial kingdom and, and, and goes through all the processes, he will eternally progress and become a

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God of his own universe one day, much like Elohim of this planet. So you, you, if you go through it, you'll have your own planet.

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And I, I don't think that's discussed as much anymore in missionary training here at the MTC, but what are your thoughts about that?

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I just talked a lot. What do you think about that? Uh, well, so your question, did you have a question or was it more just like, kind of you're just telling your side?

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Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm asking what, yeah, what are your thoughts on that? Like eternal progression? Are you, you know, even personally, do you, are you excited to become a

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God one day? Do you, do you expect that or? Well, that's kind of our, that's my goal anyways. That's my goal.

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Godhood. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And, and, uh, what, how do you reconcile though, like the passages in the

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Bible? And even, even I would say the Book of Mormon doesn't show any, um, doctrines of, uh, progression to becoming a

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God. So, so with that, with the

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Bible and even your own Book of Mormon, it demonstrates that there's only one God that we can't become a

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God. He says he knows not one other, um, in, in the first two commandments, he makes it clear if anyone worships, worships a

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God, uh, other than him, you know, that, that they are, they are not worshiping the true

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God, right? So, so the fact is if you become a God one day in your own universe, you will be worshiped by your creatures in your, that you've created with Heavenly Mother in the pre -existence, right?

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So you will one day maybe get worshiped, but the Bible demonstrates no one's ever going to get worshiped besides the one true

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God. So, I don't know, what do you say? Well, um. This is good training too, right?

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Yeah. I gotta think on this one. Okay. No worries. So yeah, he says, he says there's only one

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God. And yet the prophets say you can become a God. Like God, right? A, not even just like, but the, the doctrines say a

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God. Yes. Right. And that's what we believe in. Right. That's what we believe in.

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But yeah, like, we'll become like God. That's, that's our main objective here, to, um, progress, to become better.

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Because we can't be stuck in our sins, right? We can't be stuck in the faults that we make.

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That's why we have Jesus Christ in his atonement. And his atonement is infinite, right?

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To have that atonement to cover all our sins, because we're very human. We're very imperfect. So, we have the atonement so we can progress and forget our sins and learn from them.

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Okay. So that we can become like God. Okay, yeah, I would, I guess the way

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I would respond to that is, you know, the Bible demonstrates we, uh, there's regeneration.

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The Holy Spirit comes and regenerates us. And we, we are then able to believe on God.

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And, uh, the Holy Spirit then dwells us. And then there's what's called sanctification.

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So, I think we're maybe mixing what's called sanctification in that it's, it's not be, it's not becoming a

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God. It's being conformed to what's called, this is from scriptures. It's being conformed to the image of Christ.

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That, that we will never have his being. We will never have his deity.

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We will always be creatures. Whereas LDS doctrine says, no, you won't just be creatures.

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You will have the divine being. You will be a God. But the Bible shows as creatures, as, as now saved by grace, by Christ.

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We're going through what's called the process of sanctification. And, and where we're abandoning our sin.

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We, we are, we are learning, um, new things to, to, uh, to obey

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God, to abandon, to abandon our sin and to, and to become, again, like I said, conformed into his image.

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And so I would say that that's obviously a big difference between, um, you know, becoming a

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God and just, um, you know, repenting from sins that you've committed, right?

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Uh, you might have to rephrase that. Yeah, I think,

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I think another word, I think another word might be like, I'm sorry. I'm just like, what's your guys' third article of faith?

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Third article of faith. Yeah. Uh, that's the one we believe in God.

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We believe in Jesus. They're going to try to save you. He doesn't speak

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English. Yeah, sorry. He's learning. I actually don't.

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Do you have any? He might. Anyway, so the third, the third article of faith. So we believe that Jesus Christ, the atonement may save mankind, but through the gospel ordinances and principles, man may be saved, right?

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Hi, Grace. How are you doing? Doing good. Nice to see you.

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Man, you're like a rock star around here, huh? So the question is, is it

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Jesus or is it the gospel ordinances and principles that save you? Oh, it's both. All right.

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It's both of them. Says we believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

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In the book of Galatians, it's one or the other. Says those who seek to be justified by the law, nullify the sacrifice of Christ.

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So you're saying if you believe in Jesus Christ and you're baptized alone, then you don't need to do good works.

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No, no, that's not what I said. Good works are the fruit of my salvation. It's not the root of my salvation.

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So in Ephesians chapter two, it says when I'm saved, it says that my good works were prepared beforehand for me to walk in through Jesus Christ.

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Yes. But the difference is in the Christian faith is that that's not what justifies me, right?

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It's purely on Christ's work and Christ's work alone. Is it though? It is not what your third article of faith says.

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So it is purely on Jesus Christ, but we have to follow his commandments, right? So this is the issue.

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There's the Galatian heresy in the book of Galatians where the Judaizers were saying the same thing. They're saying, yes, it's

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Jesus, but you also must be circumcised. And Paul says, you know what? If even an angel from heaven comes and preaches a different gospel to you than the one that has been preached, let them be accursed.

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All they were trying to do is add circumcision. You're telling me the same thing. You're saying, yes, it's Jesus Christ, but they said, but also just circumcision.

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And Paul condemned them. He said, it's one or the other. It's Jesus or worse. So we're adding principles, right?

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Hey, I just want to be honest with you. I tried to help him. He's straight out from the

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MTC. I had to just throw him under the bus. You know, man, you know, really good English, bro. You just changed the miracle.

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I'm good. Now, thank you guys for helping him. He's not. You can obviously tell. Bro, did

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I just see a miracle from God? Or did you guys lie at the beginning and say he doesn't speak

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English? It's all training for him. It's all training for him. A righteous deception, in a sense. Oh, boy.

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Just all helping this guy. Anyways, it's one or the other. That's what the Bible. You were getting at it. He was kind of folding.

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I was like, no, no, we, I can't do this. We appreciate it. Well, that's the question, right? Yeah, I can answer it.

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Yeah, yeah. Yeah, answer it. Oh, no, I can help. I don't know where you guys are at. I just saw him. Oh, okay.

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It's, it's. About to fold right now. He was kind of scared. I was like, no, I can't help you. But that's the question, right?

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Like, literally, it says in Galatians, it's, what is it? What do you want? Jesus or works? So with the

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Judaizers, it actually, what he said, it's in there. Is, so are you familiar with the

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Judaizers in Galatians? No, I'm sorry, I'm not. So there was, there was a section of Jews. I'm so tired. There was a section of Jews who were like, we can't accept the

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Gentiles unless they're circumcised. But Paul was like, hey, that's not the gospel.

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The gospel is only Jesus Christ. So if you include any works of the law, then the graces of no effect to you is descriptive.

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Think about it this way. Let me give you kind of an illustration. So you have a tree, right? You have a tree.

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And so in the, in the Christian faith, what the Bible demonstrates is that Christ is the root and his, his work is the root.

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It is the tree, it is the trunk and he saves us. And so the, the, the good works that we do that, where we are to obey him, they are the fruit that come off of that tree.

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They are the fruit. Whereas the way I would illustrate it with, they don't earn what he did.

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It was solely his work. The way I would explain the LDS doctrines would be that it is

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Christ and his work is the root system. But in that root system entangled in it is man's works.

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They are no longer the fruit. They are the thing with Christ and your work save you.

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And we're saying the Bible shows, no, it's only Christ's work. And the fruit is the good works.

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We're not saying, you know, it's all by grace, but we're not saying you're going to live lawless. Like now that I'm saved by Jesus, I'm going to go do all that I want.

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I'm going to live in sin. That's not what Christians believe. That's not what Christians, real Christians do. So, so yeah, what do you say that the root system is your works and Christ's work?

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You know, of course it says, you know, with the works, you know, your faith without works is dead. And so what

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I've learned over my course of my mission, I just learned that, you know, the works that we perform here on earth is not like helping a lady walk in the street.

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You know, of course those are all good deeds. You know, you still want to be Christ -like, you know, helping everybody and anybody. But the works that we're really talking about is the covenants we make.

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So that's what the works is. We know that, you know, if you make the promises with our heavenly father, he's going to bless you. And so that's where people get the misdeception is, you know, the works is covenants.

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You know, the promises that we make. The works are covenants. Okay, I see. So there's a difference. I've never heard that before, actually. So there's the difference.

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And, you know, I'm truly grateful. Oh, okay. And, you know, sorry if I offended you guys with a little trickery thing.

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I was really trying to help them out. Why do they keep looking over me when they ask LDS questions? So I was actually

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LDS for over 30 years, had two stake callings before I resigned, and had a stamp from my elder who taught me the doctrine.

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So I know exactly, and a lot of times when I get in conversations, especially with missionaries, they're like, well, let me pass this along to you.

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I'm like, what are you going to pass along to me? Like, I taught this for over 30 years. So the question

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I would have for you in that situation, so you call it covenants. But answer me this. And it's a definitional difference, okay?

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When a biblical Christian, evangelical Christian comes to you and says salvation, says saved, what we mean is we are saved to go to the highest level of heaven when we die.

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In order to obtain that highest level in LDS theology, you can't obtain that strictly by Christ's word.

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You have to do other things. There are steps to take. To say otherwise is lying on its face.

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Because if you're not baptized, if you're not confirmed, if you don't get the endowment, if you don't get the priesthood, if you're male, if you don't get married in the temple for time and all eternity, then the top level of the celestial kingdom is not attainable.

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Yes? So what we're saying is, is that top level, we're saying it is available for Christ, for those who believe in Christ.

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Yeah, that is there, yes. That's also one of them. I was going to say, we all believe in Christ. Which one though?

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So here's what I would say to that. Do you see this post that we have right here? Yes. The street post. Yes. Okay. Can I worship the street post?

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Hey, you have your free agency. It's America, right? I can worship it. Now, but if I could, if I call that post

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Jesus Christ, does that make me a Christian? Hey, honestly, that's where your faith comes along. You know, we all believe in, you know, all different things and we can obviously tell.

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But does that make me a Christian? If I, if, if it, to anybody else around me, if I'm like, yeah,

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I'm a Christian, you want to come meet Jesus? And I point out this post, am I a Christian? If that's you, that's you.

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When, when Muslims... We're definitely never going to tell you guys what to believe and how to believe. Sure, sure.

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We're definitely not. When Muslims say though, Jesus was a great prophet or, you know,

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Jehovah's Witness say that Jesus was, was Michael the archangel, the first and best of beings. Isn't that, they believe in different Jesus's even from the

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LDS church right there, right? So the question is, who's the Jesus? What's your standard to judge which one is?

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Yeah. That's where your faith comes along. That's my honest, you know, true opinion.

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And we would love definitely, you know, we're walking. We're not, we don't have a car. We had to be home by nine. Oh, do you?

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Okay. All right. Well, we appreciate your time, guys. Yeah. I'm a return missionary, so...

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Only 9 .30 if you teach that lesson for us. Oh, okay. Utah mission at least. Okay. Have a good day, man. You too.