Report from LDS General Conference and Discussion on Justification

Second Timothy 2 15 be diligent to present yourself approved to God a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth

Alpha and Omega ministries presents the dividing line radio broadcast The Apostle Peter commanded all

Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give this answer with gentleness and reverence

Your host is dr. James white director of Alpha and Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reform to Baptist Church If you'd like to talk with dr.

White, you can call now by dialing 5 0 8 0 9 60. That's 5 0 8 0 9 60 and now with today's topic.

Here's James white Well, hello and welcome to the program today. My name is

Sean Han I am the vice president of Alpha and Omega ministries and also

I am a deacon at Sovereign Grace Bible Church, which is located at 29th Avenue and Bethany Home Road And I am sitting in the chair of James white today

Unfortunately, James white as I understand is somewhere off the coast of Florida on a large cruise ship teaching a crew of Folks there how to share and defend their faith.

It's some sort of apologetical cruise Sounds somewhat like a difficult task that we've sent him off on but James white has definitely got it rough

And today while I'm here I it is my desire to discuss with you the biblical doctrine of Justification and what

I'd like to do as I teach is to do a little contrasting with the LDS doctrine of justification

What do they believe about? How an individual is made right before God and I would like to show you some of the differences between what they believe and what?

biblical Christianity has to say and before I begin today, I would also like to check in with The president of Alpha and Omega ministries who is rich Pierce He is up in Salt Lake City with a group of our volunteers

Standing outside the gates of the Mormon Temple there and he is on a payphone

Which is about probably about 20 feet from the main entrance and it is the time of year that we go up there

It's called general conference. We go to the general conference up there twice a year and I believe that this will be our 26th consecutive

Conference that we have attended as a ministry as Alpha and Omega ministry. We normally fly up for the day and we have anywhere from five to twelve folks that go up there and and We stand outside the gates and there's approximately 30 ,000

LDS Folks that are coming there to listen to their prophets speak and we stand outside the gates we are the welcoming party and we're there not to pick a fight or we're there not to Make enemies, but we are there to share the gospel of God's grace and with our friends and I do emphasize

They indeed are our friends, but nonetheless they are our deceived friends so we are there in all humility in love reaching out wanting to share the truth of what the

Bible has to say and So before I begin our lesson today on justification, I'd like to go to Rich Pierce who is on a payphone

Rich. Are you there? Yes, I'm here Sean. How are you today? Very very good. How are you rich? Everything's coming over loud and clear good.

Yeah. Yeah, right. It's excellent. I have to tell you we got out here this morning and Because of all the changes that are going on in the in the facilities up here we really wondered what our situation was going to be they have built on the property north of the temple property a very large if you will replacement for the tabernacle

I guess the LDS youth are calling it the mega knackle and this facility

Could be compared to America West Arena quite easily Wow And so it is definitely they're expecting to have it really increased.

I think the attendance at general conferences Etc the major issue is we've heard some rumors about The North Temple the street of North Temple that is

Between this facility and the main temple grounds that there would be a walkway built underground underneath the street

So as for the Mormons not to be able to have to encounter us when they go across the street

I was just up there at this point in time. I don't see any evidence of something like that being under construction.

So that's good news Main Street, which is the east side of the temple property has been purchased from the city of Salt Lake From the from the city of Salt Lake by the

Mormon Church and We looked over the fences there and there's a huge huge hole in the ground

So they're going to be building a a major facility there of some kind I don't know what there's no sign to really tell us what they're doing there.

So there's major changes facilities wise We're not able to go on the southeast gate anymore

Like we used to because that property it now belongs to the Mormon Church is not public property

When we got out here this morning Sean if you've been up here before you know That there is a a gentleman who is a fundamentalist

Mormon who is here every time We come up who is protesting the

Mormon Church's if you will non stand on abortion Mormon Church just doesn't have something to say on the issue

They feel it's political and this gentleman and some of his friends got excommunicated years ago for being outspoken on it they've become fundamentalist and So this guy has a picket sign here with an aborted baby on this picture of it, etc

And he's usually right here on the south gate when we got here this morning He was actually across the street at the crossroads mall

Standing outside there and we're like what's going on? And he says well we have to have a permit

To be over there I'm like, wait a minute. Something's real wrong here

Why do we have to have a permit and so in coming over and talking with the police? We I was very concerned that we would even be able to track today

Maybe some new City Council law or something like that. Well, what it turns out there was a gentleman here

Who apparently availed himself of an old? ordinance that's been around for some time that I guess groups can picket with a permit and If another group comes along and wants to have picket well, the first come first serve and the other groups have to stay 50 feet away from him and It turns out this gentleman was an atheist who has been living here in Salt Lake He is moving away and wanted to take a parting shot at the

LDS Church So he had a picket sign and some interesting garb, etc And in talking to the police it turns out that did not apply to us at all

And the interesting thing is as Sean as you know, this other gentleman that is a fundamentalist

Mormon oftentimes repels rather than attracts and Quashes many good conversations or the potential for good conversations that we've had

So this has turned out to be a blessing because he had to be across the street all morning long We've had great conversations this morning that were lengthy

We got a lot of tracks out and it's been a very fruitful morning as it is

And I take the weather is is is very good as well. I say we're in the upper 60s, maybe low 70s

It's really a beautiful day here. It really is. I'll never forget the year. It must have been two years ago We were there and we had the blizzard like conditions

The snow would actually pile up on our tracks and we'd have to dust them off as we shared the gospel with our

Mormon friends, so let me ask you this rich. It sounds like We might not be able to to track thereafter they get this building completed

Well, I think it's really a matter of strategy. I don't think we're shut out the interesting thing is that we still have the the crosswalk between the

Temple building a crossroads mall and crossroads has a very large food court in there

And so when it comes to time to eat folks walk over to crossroads and they get to go by us in the process in looking at North Temple And the situation up there it looks like they're building a large crosswalk and it's not underground

So it's going to be above ground at this point. That seems to be the indication The LDS folks will be able to park on property on the new property

It'll be a parking garage underneath But then the the the old temple here in Salt Lake is the major attraction so they may go to the tabernacle up there the new megadethical and and Listen to the the speaking but then during breaks

Everybody's gonna want to go to the visitors center and see the temple So I believe they'll be coming across North Temple and it will probably be more active than it ever has been

So and so that's that's I think going to be a blessing for us as well And then of course after they get a chance to look around the the temple grounds, they're going to be hungry

Sure So they're going to be going out the south gates over to crossroads mall And I think that that's going to give us another opportunity to be able to interact with them.

Good. Let me ask this How many people do you have with you up there today? We've got seven including a young gentleman who is a

New convert from Mormonism. He has done a tremendous amount of study and really knows

What he believes well, he joined us up here As well as a couple from Phoenix that has come up They went to our witnessing to Mormon seminar back in March.

And this is their first time. They're also former Mormons and This has been you know

The regular crew myself Larry and gentlemen from San Diego Randy Churchill has been interviewed on the program before is all over here and so we've got

Seven or eight people. We've got a pastor from Baptist Church up in Ogden, Utah that has come down just to observe and And so this has been a very very good day for us here

Excellent. What is it like not having James White with you? I believe this is the very first time that dr.

White has not been able to attend It is the very first time and by the way, I do want to correct a number for you.

Thank you I said I believe our 30th Oh this is my 27th and it would be 28 if it weren't for when the year that I Messed up everybody's tickets.

We had eight people going on the airplane that morning and I only bought six tickets. And so I opted to stay behind That particular trip as well as Mike Porter did you were atoning for your sins?

There you go And and so I believe this would have been James's 30th trip, hmm, well too bad

Well, we'll have to make a t -shirt or something for the for the event that's quite a how many years that's 14 15 years now

Yes. Yeah, I started my first general conference was the April conference in 1986 Hmm.

Well, we've been doing this for some time and it's this trip in my opinion has been Exceptionally fruitful.

It really has been a blessing. So it sounds like you've had some excellent opportunities to To challenge the

Mormon people and to share the scriptures with them and to tell them about the true Jesus Christ Absolutely. We had a conversation with a young lady this morning that went on my must to talk with her for two hours and It was one of those

You know, I persuade and persuade and persuade and you can tell she just doesn't want to let go of Joseph Smith being a true prophet or let go of the

Mormon version of anything and yet I went to Colossians 1 I read that for her she looked at it and then she called it a parable and that she couldn't understand it as a parable and In in facing up with that a little bit more and in saying hey, this is what it says

This is not a parable is straightforward teaching and really concentrating on that fact

She began to Acknowledge certain points as we were talking with her and I can tell you know

This is a gal that has to look herself in the mirror and she knows in her heart of hearts What what

I was saying is truth and and what she has to deal with when she goes

Before a holy God when if she dies today. Mm -hmm. That's right. Well Well rich,

I think I'll get back to the program back to Your critical time there and sharing appreciate the time

Sean and wish you providential blessings and have a great show Lord bless you. We'll pray that you have a safe trip home.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you rich well, one of the most crucial crucial differences between What biblical

Christianity has to teach and what the LDF LDS? Church teaches is in the area of salvation and this is going to be our topic for discussion today

And I would say that at the heart of every false religion Every single false religion is some form or variation of a personal works righteousness in other words every false system of belief requires that the individual the adherent to this system of religious activity that the person himself or herself perform

Necessary deeds or necessary works that they might merit or earn salvation if I use that language and by the way

I need to mention to you that The phone number that we have at the on the beginning of the program I believe is incorrect and I want to give you a local phone number and also a tell a toll -free 602 2 7 4 1360 you may call in with any questions that you have that will be relevant to our topic today or at 1 8 8 8 5 5 0 13 60

So I'll give those numbers again a little later in the program But I do invite your calls if you have some questions or comments that are relevant.

We'd be glad to put you on the air But anyhow back to our topic the LDS faith itself is no stranger to this area or to this error of works

Righteousness for example in the Book of Mormon. There's a book called second Nephi at 25 23

It says for we know that it is by grace that we are saved and here's the kicker

After all we can do So you say you can you could reverse this you say we must do everything we can do on enough in and of ourselves

And then we are saved by grace and we'll see also in the book of Moroni, which is also in the

Book of Mormon Moroni 10 32 says if and this is a conditional statement.

It says if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness and love

God with all your might mind and strength Then here it comes then is his grace sufficient for you

Moroni 10 32. So you've got to do something You've got to deny yourself of all Ungodliness not just some of it all of it

You've got to love God with all your might With all your mind and with all your strength and then and then alone according to Moroni 10 32 then is his grace

Sufficient for you And what sets biblical Christianity apart from the rest of the world religions?

And this is one of the crucial differences between biblical Christianity and everything else Is a works righteousness that is not our own.

It's not our own as a Christian I'm not saved because of my own good works and because of my own alleged righteousness

No, I'm saved and redeemed on the basis of the works and righteousness of Jesus Christ alone

I've got nothing to claim on my own as a Christian The only thing I have to claim the only thing that I can take credit for is my sin and my rebellion

And this is the doctor. This is exactly what the doctrine of justification is concerned about you might ask

Well, how important is this doctrine? How important is the doctrine of justification? Martin Luther the great

Reformer said that this particular doctrine is the doctrine by which the church stands or falls

The question which the doctrine of justification Attempts to answer is this question and this is a question that every single individual

I don't care what kind of a system or religion you're a part of but every single Human being creature of God made in his image must ask this question

How can a sinful creature be right with a holy God? And you could rephrase the question

To make it even more explicit. You could say how is a a sinful and spiritually dead creature man?

How is he able to be made right and to be accepted by an absolutely holy?

And just God to drive the point home a little bit more clearly This is the question that we must answer in order to understand this doctrine of justification

Theologian by the name of James Buchanan said that the best preparation for the study of this doctrine is neither great intellectual inability or much scholastic learning

But a conscience that's impressed with a sense of our actual condition as sinners in the sight of God This is what the scriptures would have us to believe.

So what is justification? What does Paul mean when he talks about being? Justified by God.

Well an excellent answer is given to us in the Westminster Shorter Catechism an old catechism from the 1600s from the 1640s actually says the justification is an act of God's free grace wherein he pardon of all our sins and Accepts us as righteous in his sight only for the righteousness of Christ Imputed to us and received by faith alone.

I'm going to say it one more time Justification is an act of God's free grace wherein he pardons all our sins and accepts us as righteous in his sight only for the righteousness of Christ Imputed to us and received by faith alone.

That is a fantastic Definition of what it means to be justified and this is about we are going to unpack this for the rest of our lesson

So ultimately the act of justification, it's a legal transaction.

It has to do with Legal matters. It's a legal concern. It's directly related to the law and to the justice of God As a matter of fact, we would say that it's a legal concern of the utmost importance

R .C. Sproul says the doctrine of justification involves a legal matter of the highest magnitude

It involves a matter of judgment before the supreme tribunal of God Let me ask you friend.

Is there a higher court than that of the courtroom of God? I Don't think so now in order to understand

The doctrine of justification there is a word that we must thoroughly understand

This one word is a biblical word and it's found throughout the pages of Scripture both Old and New Testament and it is a word

That is called Imputation and is a word that is translated from a

Greek word called legitimate and it means to reckon to regard or to consider as or even to place into one's account this

Imputation and we see it in a verse and if you have your Bibles today, it might be handy if you could follow me along I'll be referring to some scriptures.

We'll look them up and I'll point some things out to you But in Romans 4 3 Paul says that Abraham believed

God and it was Reckoned to him as righteousness. This is the word that is coming from the

Greek word, which is Imputation it was reckoned to him and I'm reading that's a new American standard

Translation of that word. It was reckoned to him as righteousness and the NIV would would use the word It was credited to him as righteousness the

Kate the King James version Says it was counted to him and the

New King James says that it was accounted to him so this is the idea imputation has to do ultimately in a biblical sense with the transferal of One one person's sin or righteousness to another by way of reckoning crediting or declaring and the act of justification is declarative in Nature and it's based.

It's based upon wholly upon the accomplished work of Jesus Christ We would say that our redemption is accomplished by the works of Christ Plural the works of Christ is because he both obeyed and he died for us

My son and answering the Catechism there's a children's catechism

In the evenings and I asked him what does it mean to be justified and he would give me the answer now

He's only five and this is made for children He would give me the answer that it is

God regarding sinners as if we never sinned And that is a very good answer for a child, but there's much more to the doctrine of justification

For adults that we must understand so let's get into this What does?

Justification involve well the essence of justification consists of a complete change in our judicial relation to God It's it's our legal

Standing before God remember that God is holy and you and I are not we are not holy

And God is holy and God demands holiness to be in his presence. He demands

Perfection so you and I as his creatures as his fallen creatures have two choices

We can either be Holy in and of ourselves We can attempt to do the the works of the law and to clean ourselves up and to try to do things to become holy or We can stop and we can cease this activity and we can trust

God for his imputed holiness And this is what we're talking about So the essence of justification again is

Includes two things it includes both the pardon of our sin so the forgiveness of our sin and The acceptance of the sinner so there's two things pardon and acceptance if you will and now the pardoning of our sin involves the

Imputation of our sin of your sin and my sin to Christ see this is this this legal transaction legal transaction that takes place your sin and my sin is

Imputed to Christ and this is what is referred to sometimes you'll hear theologians mentioned the negative

Aspect of justification. It's negative not in that it's bad news, but it's negative because it's the removal of our sin and in the atonement

Christ Satisfies the demands of God's justice by suffering and dying in our room instead

And he receives in himself the penalty that's due our sin He receives the curse that is due his people who fail to keep the law of God Isaiah 53 verses 5 and 6 says but he was pierced through for our

Transgressions he was crushed for our iniquities The chastening for our well -being fell upon him and by his scourging

We are healed all of us like sheep have gone astray Each of us has turned to his own way

But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him

And this is what we call the vicarious or the substitutionary work of Christ.

It's from another This is something that Christ does for us Christ died in behalf of His people the

Greek preposition is who pair he did die died in behalf of His people and this is seen in Romans 5 6 where Paul says

While we were still helpless at the right time Christ died for and that's that Greek word

Coupere so he died in behalf of the ungodly And just a note note on this word ungodly

The prophet the alleged prophet of the Mormon Church Joseph Smith Did not like the fact that God loved the ungodly

And for instance the passage in Romans 4 5 which just precedes the one I read to you

Paul again says but to him that worketh not But believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly his faith is counted for righteousness.

So here we have Paul saying that it is God That justifies The ungodly and now there's a translation that Joseph Smith did called the

JST the Joseph Joseph Joseph Smith Translation it is allegedly an inspired translation that he did

And he changed this verse and he put but believeth on him who justifieth

Not the ungodly he inserted the word not to change the doctrine of justification

He did not like the fact that God would justify the ungodly

And so the atonement involves again the judicial imputation of our sins to Christ as Isaiah 53 6 again says the

Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on him this is an amazing truth and I Beg you if you are a believer today, and if you're not

I pray that you will understand some of these things but if you stop to meditate on the fact that if you're a believer and that your sins that you deserve to be

Punished for and separated from God those sins The penalty all of that has been dealt with in Christ They've been imputed to him and they have been dealt with our sins are imputed to Christ and then he in turn

Propitiates the wrath of God I'd love to get into that word, but he propitiates or satisfies the wrath of God He satisfies

God's justice by dying for sinners Well, I think

I'd like to take a break at this time Are we ready and and when we come back, we'll announce our phone number again, and we'll continue with our lesson.

Thank you Hello and welcome again to our program, this is

Sean Han I'm sitting in for dr James White today, and we're discussing the biblical doctrine of justification

Which is actually at the heart of biblical Christianity, this is the gospel This is one of the most crucial important doctrines for the believer to understand and unfortunately

It's something that is overlooked and often Neglected today in and by Christians and it's not preached often over most pulpits today and and Something I would like to say.

I understand that. Dr. White is is currently writing a book on the doctrine of justification

Hopefully it'll be out in the next couple of months, but it's going to be a very large and scholarly work 450 page approximately hard bound and When you go to the

Christian bookstore, if you were to ask the clerk there for a book on justification You probably would be disappointed to find that there

Probably are none maybe one or two at the most on the bookshelf and it is something that is neglected and it's unfortunate because it is

Probably one of the single most important doctrines for the Christian to understand. So back to our study today

We're talking about the essence of justification what justification involves and we said it involves two things both the pardoning of sin and The acceptance of the sinner these are two different things we're discussing

We talked about the pardoning of sin and now the other side involves our acceptance.

This is what we would call the positive aspect of imputation This is where God gives us or he imputes to us the righteousness of Christ our acceptance and admission into God's favor our adoption on our

Inheritance our title to eternal life all of these things rest upon the active obedience of Christ Now, what do we mean by Christ's active obedience?

well, the active obedience of Christ consists of everything that Jesus Christ did in observing and fulfilling the law of God while he was here and while he was in human flesh in his life here

Matthew 5 17 Our Lord says do not think that I came to abolish the law or the prophets.

I did not come to abolish but to fulfill He came to fulfill the law of God He says in John 15 10.

I have kept my father's commandments Because he obeyed and fulfilled the law of God we then are accepted and considered as righteous as the recipients of his righteousness a sinner is not

Accepted on the grounds of a righteousness that's infused into us or that's inherent within ourselves in other words

It's not a righteousness that is poured into our souls. We're why whereby we Actually become righteous in our being or in our person it rather.

It's a righteousness that is Vicarious in other words, it's from another it's from outside of ourselves and it's imputed to us.

It's it's given to us Legally, it's decal. We are declared righteous Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.

We're talking about his righteousness. This is what he Obtained in fulfilling and obeying the law of God perfectly.

He never once Lusted after I can hardly bring myself to say these things, but he never once lusted after another woman.

He never told a lie He never sinned against his neighbor. He never coveted anything. He fulfilled the law of God perfectly

And this righteousness again is given to us as a judge would pronounce or declare a verdict

It's not something that's infused into us, but it's declarative in nature And so the essence of our justification again involves both

God imputing or legally transferring our sins to the sin -bearer and therefore not counting them against us and simultaneously

God imputing or We could say reckoning or accounting Christ's righteousness to us and you see both of these for instance in Daniel 9 24

Says he will make atonement for iniquity. This is the the first half. This is the pardoning of sin and He will bring in everlasting righteousness

This is our acceptance. This is the blessing of justification. So justification then is this legal term and it signifies

Acquittal before God or pardon if you will and the declaring of a person to be just or righteous or holy in his sight to be

Accepted and now an important question when we study this is how is it that Christ's obedience is imputed to you?

And I how do we get this? Obedient. How do we how do we get this righteousness? Well, it is through faith alone

This is the great maxim of the 16th century Reformation sola fide

We are saved or we are justified through faith alone Ephesians 2 8 9 says it's for by grace.

Are ye saved through faith? There it is and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God not of works

Lest any man should boast and this is again is quite different from our the

Mormon Gospel As seen in the Book of Mormon and Moroni 10 32 It says if you shall keep if you shall deny yourself of all ungodliness and love

God with all your might mind and strength Then is his grace sufficient for you so again the

Mormon Gospel of Salvation is completely antithetical to biblical

Christianity If you're looking for a place, by the way when you're witnessing to your Mormon friends and you want to Go somewhere

I I would recommend going here go to the doctrine of salvation Or to the doctrine of God or to the doctrine of Christ these are the three areas that I always encourage people to to to work with but anyhow

Romans 3 23 says if for we maintain Paul says that a man is justified by faith apart

From works of the law We are justified by faith or through faith faith is the means of our justification.

It's not the ground of our justification our faith is neither our faith rather nor any other obedience or Evangelical obedience represents a ground or a merit for our justification

You see if that were the case then our faith would be meriting and earning our acceptance before God and that's not the gospel friends

That's a works righteousness In other words, we're not justified on account of or on the ground of our faith.

We are Declared legally righteous by faith or through faith and I to help you understand this concept

Joel Beakey mentions that on every occasion faith is presented as the means of justification justification by faith alone is never justification on account of faith, but always justification on account of Christ in other words on account of the blood satisfaction of the

Lamb of God being graciously imputed to and received by an undeserving sinner

So ultimately the ground of our justification is Christ and his righteousness alone We're not justified because of what faith is.

It's not some mysterious thing, but it's because of what faith lays hold of and receives

This is the key here. We are not saved for believing but we are saved by believing in the application of Justification faith is not a builder, but it's a beholder

And so faith is not some meritorious work that we do in order to earn the favor of God Rather truth faith is rather a looking away from ourselves to another who merits salvation for us

And so the reason why faith is so important is because it alone By itself is the sole means whereby you and I receive the alien righteousness of Christ We receive the righteousness of Christ only by relying on him completely.

He's the object of our faith unfortunately today many Christians are too preoccupied with talking about faith and Looking at their faith or rather I should say the act of faith rather than faiths

Object and this is a crime you hear Christians talk about faith Like it's a some sort of a

God or some sort of a being in and of itself rather than the object of faith

We would we would say that we receive and enjoy the righteousness of Christ through faith alone

Which is the gift of God ultimately as Ephesians 2 5 says in Philippians 1 29 likewise says for to you

It has been granted for Christ's sake to believe in him So faith again is opposite from works faith is the total cessation of every single attempt to gain favor with God And the

LDS doctrine of salvation is opposed to this kind of teaching in the book Which is part of their scripture and the

Doctrine of Covenants section 1 at verse 32 it says nevertheless he that repents and that parts good he that repents and Does the commandments of the

Lord shall be forgiven so you see that doing the commandments this obedience is prerequisite for Forgiveness, you've got to work for it.

You've got to do something to be forgiven You've actually got to get out there and obey those commandments a

Newly converted person exerts a God -given faith for the very first time Which for the very first time trusts

God alone for his righteousness as Romans 4 at verse 2 through 5 says for if Abraham was justified by works he has something to boast about but not before God for what does the scripture say and Abraham believed

God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness Now to the one who works his wage is not reckoned as favor

But as what is due but to the one who does not work and this is what we're talking about We're talking about through faith alone

It's not a work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly his faith is reckoned as righteousness

Another passage that shows this is Romans 10 verses 3 and 4 for not knowing about God's righteousness

I think this is talking about the Scribes and the Pharisees and seeking to establish their own you see they're seeking to establish their own righteousness works works works

They did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God and Then in verse 4 it says for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes

So real saving faith involves two different things Well, they're really together two things forsaking everything self has that's self -righteousness

Self -worth self -value self -trust etc. Etc. That's the first thing and Secondly trusting holy that's who lly trusting holy in Christ and Paul shows us this in a great passage in the book of Philippians in the

New Testament Chapter 3 in verse 3 through 9. He says for we are the true circumcision who worship in The Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh

There it is Although I myself might have confidence Even in the flesh if anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh

I far more you see and here he goes. He's gonna he's gonna call out and he's going to Explain his good works or allegedly good works circumcised the eighth day of the nation of Israel of the tribe of Benjamin a

Hebrew of Hebrews as to the law of Pharisee as to zeal a persecutor of the church as to the righteousness, which is in the law found blameless

In verse 7, he says but whatever things were gained to me which this would be what he just mentioned

Those things have I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ more than that He says

I count all things to be lost in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my

Lord for whom I have suffered the loss of all things and count them but rubbish in Order that I might gain

Christ and some translations don't use the word rubbish. They say dung And he says that I might be found in him not having a righteousness of my own that's derived from the law

But that which is through faith in Christ the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith

You see he stacks up all of his good works and he says they're nothing. I count them all loss in view of knowing

Christ So BQ says that faith makes a sinner conscious

Conscience of the desperate situation that he's in and the tragic judgment that he deserves

Sin he says has to become sin if grace is to become grace and far from being a work of merit faith is a realizing that my realizing of my demerit a negating of all hope and merit a

Becoming aware of divine mercy. He says my filthy rags must be stripped away the spiritual character of the law which demands perfect love to God and my neighbor must

Condemn me if I am to come to appreciate the beauty of that Savior who for the ungodly

Perfectly obeyed the law in his active obedience and bore the penalty of sin in his passive obedience

He says my unrighteousness must be uncovered if Christ's righteousness is to be discovered

So remember that faith is not itself the righteousness by which we're justified But it's the channel through which we receive another righteousness.

It's not a personal righteousness, which we have but it's this imputed Righteousness. Do you see the distinction that we're making here?

I hope so Lastly I Want to talk about after we come back from our break.

I would like to talk about the relationship between Justification and works.

What about that back in a moment? Welcome back again.

My name is Sean Hahn and we're taking your calls if you're interested at area code 6 0 2 2 7 4 13 60 or 1 8 8 5 5 0 13 1660 we're talking about the doctrine of justification the doctrine by which the church stands or falls and as we wrap up,

I'd like to talk about the relationship between faith and Works, what about works?

Well, we are Justified by faith alone, but never by a faith that is alone

And it looks like we're going to take a blade of a call right now. We have a caller online So let's go ahead and take a call here

I Welcome to the program prudence. This is Sean. How can what kind of questions you have? Let's try this again

Sean, okay. Okay prudence go right ahead. Um, I have a question if if our sins are pardoned as Christians and and we have faith and believe

Does that mean that that the basic Christian belief is that there is no Accountability for those sins then when you do die, you know what

I'm saying? Like there's absolutely no As long as you repent there's no day of answering for those things

It's an excellent question yeah, there's there's a distinction that theologians make which

I was hoping to get to towards the end here if I have time, but there's the there's the Judicial forgiveness of God that we're talking about here and justification.

This is our Forgiveness that we have before God as as the judge of the universe and then there's another side of this forgiveness of God Which is

God as our father. We call it the fatherly forgiveness of God and So I believe that there is even today as you and I live as Christians and we commit sins and First John 1 9 we we go to that and we confess our sins to our father and he forgives us

Our sins do affect our relationship with God as our father, but not as God as our judge.

Does that make sense to you? It does but it's in that same mysterious way that some of this stuff makes sense to me.

Yeah, well, I mean there will be a day when we when we go over or when on judgment day or whatever when when our life flashes before Us or whatever when we when we are held accountable for what we do, even if we've asked for Forgiveness it doesn't mean that we're gonna maybe go to hell

Maybe that's our saving thing is that we have faith, but it doesn't mean that all that stuff is just never going to be answered For well, there's a verse in the

New Testament that I cannot recall off the top of my head But it talks about that every idle word there are different passages that talk about This giving an account for what we've done what we did with what

God gave us these kinds of things and I don't Personally, I don't understand it Completely I do

I do know from what we're learning in the doctrine of justification that The sins that we commit once we have been

Justified by God will never ever separate us from his love if we are genuinely a believer

They're not going to separate us from the love of God But they do affect our relationship with him as our father like I use the analogy of my son

When he steps out of line and disobeys me then I have to I have to chastise him and I do it out of love

And it affects our relationship in some way He can never do anything so that I would

I wouldn't stop loving him And again, this is a human analogy that the breaks down but that makes more sense.

Yeah Yeah, so so God is our father now He's been he's been satisfied and appease as our judge and that is gone and we don't have to worry

We don't have to sweat about that but now there's this relationship where he forgives us now as a father for the sins that we commit and And and and he's pleased with our

I would say he's pleased with our obedience and he's displeased with our disobedience

But it's not something our sins that we will commit continually between between now and the grave.

We will never Come under the wrath of God again Okay, well, thank you very much thanks for your call.

Okay. Bye. Bye. I know Now we said that That we are saved or that we are justified by a faith alone

But never by a faith that is alone. In other words. God's not going to just justify a man and leave him there but he's also going to Sanctify a man we would say that real faith is going to do something.

It's going to produce something It's going to produce good works in a godly life Galatians 5 6 and as James says faith without works is

Dead James 2 26 and the full outworking of faith is seen in works

And true faith always produces fruit faith and works are something that may be distinguished, but they're never to be separated or Divorced as Jesus said if you love me, you will keep my commandments

So we are justified by faith alone But never by a faith that is alone and once again our

Mormon friends turn to the doctrine They take this doctrine to salvation and they turn it right on its head The Mormon scholar by the name of Bruce McConkie clearly wrote and he taught he said salvation in the celestial kingdom of God However, he says is not salvation by grace alone

Rather it is salvation by grace coupled with obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel

We have a caller on air That we will be getting to here. Is he still with us?

He's with us bill Bill, yeah, bill. You're on the air. I've got a question for you.

I wanted to know you quoted a scripture that Abraham believed God And it was accounted to him for righteousness

And I'd like to know what was it that Abraham believed God for? What did

Abraham believe God he believed God that He ultimately believed

God for salvation That God is the the just and the justifier

Bill are you still with us? Yes. Uh -huh. I'm driving so I don't have my Bible open, but I was wondering about in the context of that verse

Let me see if I can get to it here Okay, bill

Well, I don't have the Let's see here Well bill,

I don't know that I I can flip to the context right here. I'm going back through my notes Romans 4 3

Paul says that Abraham believed God and it was it was reckoned to him as righteousness

And you're asking me what the context there is about We're talking about The fact that Abraham was not

Declared righteous or accepted or justified by his works Because if that were the case, then it would be a works righteousness, which we are which we are railing against Abraham believed

God and it was counted to him for righteousness. So it's talking about The one that works is not

Verse 4 it says now to him that works is not rewarded

Not reckoned of grace, but a but a debt. So in other words if you work for salvation it is a

Situation where you're you're earning you're trying to work. You're expecting to get paid back for What you're doing in other words when you go to your job and you work a full week's work

You're you expect to get a check and that's not grace and that's what's trying to be distinguished here in chapter 4 I don't know if that answers your question

You have a cross -reference there to Genesis where is this particular passage talking about?

When God told Abraham that he would be a father of a great nation. Is that what

Abraham believed? Well, and it's yeah, it's going back to Genesis 15 and I'm really not prepared to to get in an exegete

Genesis 15 Okay, Bill we're gonna go to another caller we have a call on line two you're on the air what is your question

Hello, Mike Are you there Mike? You're on the air go right ahead.

You can hear me. Yes, sir. Go right ahead a couple of things First I thought it sounded like you weren't too sure what

Bill was asking So I thought I'd give you my two cents for whatever it was worth and I have a question for you

I think that the specific promise that Abraham believed in Genesis 15 was the promised seed

Okay, Abraham understood that there was more to that than His son his eventual son

Isaac But as our Lord says that April before Abraham was I am and that Abraham rejoiced when he heard about me

So I think that your answer was right on that. Ultimately Abraham believed that it was God who justifies

But Abraham understood that it was Something somehow connected to that promise seed

Which in the book of Galatians Paul very clear to point out that that seed all along referred to Jesus Christ Right, right.

So that's how I was and I don't know if that's helpful to Bill or I think so I think I think Bill would find that answer a little bit more satisfying

I had a question for you as far as maybe some clarification and that was

Are we in any way our nature Our sinfulness are we changed in justification?

I Mean you said we were declared, right? And and actually In the acts of justification, it's a legal standing but there are other things that come with justification

In other words, we said that God would never justify a man without also sanctify sanctifying him We're talking about the new birth and in that new birth we receive the

Holy Spirit We receive a new heart of flesh that actually begins to mortify sin and love

God with all our heart soul and mind Mike we have to to end our program. I appreciate your call and we pray that that if you to I Pray that you folks out there listening would be recipients of the grace of God and remember that we are saved by faith alone through Faith alone because of Christ alone.

Thanks again for tuning in today We'll see you next week at the same time The dividing line is a contact us at 602 9730 318 or you can write us at PO box 3 7 1 0 6