Slavery in the Bible

Technical Restart and Listener Reconnection

Okay, this is take two. We'll try this again and see if this uh if we get a Feedback. Now, of course everyone is.

For folks to come back in. Okay test one two. Yeah.

That seems like it's better. Yeah, probably just extra thing running on your system, yeah, I don't know what that was. Okay. Well. All right. Now, of course, we gotta wait for everyone to get back in.

So this Calvinist anti-calvinist guy really wants to come in and talk I'm hoping so I'd love to talk to him.

Oh the guy that sends it no and Andrews Andrew from down under sent us that that song. Oh, okay. He wants that he wanted us to respond to that. So yeah, that would be great if we could get that guy. That'd be fun.

Maybe we will play that later and get everyone to guilt him into coming in. All right. Some technical glitches people are coming back. Sorry about that. All right, the echo is gone. I have no idea what that was.

It was weird, but we'll start over. All right, look up I'll play the intro music. Dad why bother. All right, so hey Matt, how are you.

I'm fine. Hang it in there. Technology is great. Well for the most part it is it works. Usually works really well.

Did you disappear? I think someone's technology challenged. Yeah, I just I just I guess exited somehow. Wow, that was strange. Okay. All right. How many people are watching? I can't see we got nine or ten back in.

Calvinist Criticism and the Charge of Not Being Saved

Okay so, all right, well. Well, let's just pick up from here Matt where we were going to now that I had to close down all those windows I had I had all my Windows open to calm on some new new articles that you put out on Slavery so we could we either do that We I could go through the slavery questions at first or do you want to go through this Calvinist? song that we had.

Might be fun for this Calvinist song and then we can while people are getting in here and then we can. Talk about the slavery thing. Okay.

Okay. Well, let us let me share this so people can watch and can can see there's not much on this but You know, at least people would be able to See this. So here's here's here is the Calvinists are not saved cover song.

And I'll stop this where he he just has long periods of just music. I'll let Matt respond at each of these spots. So.

This will be fun for you. Okay, this song is entitled Calvinists are not saved. Here goes Standing in line on Judgment Day waiting for the God of Calvinism to say That I did a good job. But then the real Jesus hurries by and stares at me like I'm an unsaved guy.

Any damn my soul to hell. Calvinists are not saved and that's just the way it is. Calvinists are reprobates and some things will never change. Calvinists are not saved. It's the way it is. Calvinists are a bunch of stupid idiots.

No, I don't believe that they're saved.

Okay, let's pause right there in that first part there. Matt so what do you.

Well When people tell me I've had people tell you before that Calvinists are not saved and and then I just say, okay. Show me in the Bible backing for that why those of us who believe that That people are touched by sin and every part of the of what they are Can't be saved or that we teach that the sinful person can't come to Christ on his own.

But has to be granted faith. Look is 129 Granted to come to Christ John 665. Why are we not saved for that or that we believe that God unconditionally elects people doesn't look into the hearts of anybody to see what good quality they have and election based on God's Sovereign's choice Ephesians 111 not what's in people.

Otherwise, that would be Partial favoritism, which is condemned in James 2 2 through 4. Or if we teach that Jesus cancelled the sin dead at the cross. But only those who are the elect Colossians 2 14, but why are we going to hell or Irresistible grace, you know.

That God at the point of regeneration not that grace can't be resisted. But it only it's just irresistible grace means that at the point of regeneration that we can't successfully resist God's will in that.

Where we will be regenerated at John 3 3 through 5 second Corinthians 5 17. Why is that wrong a perseverance of the Saints which Jesus says he will lose none John 6 47 through 40. Why are we going to hell for that?

I mean, that's what I asked me. Ask him. Give me the scriptures. Why are we going to hell for for things like that?

Well, that's what's going to be lacking in this whole thing is scripture, but a lot of claims. You know made the claim. We're not Calvin's not saved. He made the claim. That they're reprobate. But one of the things and especially his next section I'll play the next 30 seconds is this language.

We would expect to hear from a Christian someone that professes to be saved. Listen to this next section.

You guys are not saved like they are. You trust it in your tulip instead of Jesus Christ. Now you get to burn in hell forever more. Cuz Calvinist are not saved and that's just the way it is Calvinist a reprobate and some things will never change.

Calvinist are not saved and that's just the way it is. Calvinist are a bunch of stupid idiots. No, I don't believe that they're saved. Okay, so.

Calvinist are just a bunch of stupid idiots. That's is that language we would expect to hear from someone that's professing to be a Christian.

Now well, you know, there are a lot of deceived people out there and Christians who can walk in varying levels of failure and their sanctification and Humility before God and that to me is an example of such a person.

You know, I'd like to have a dialogue with someone like that to be. I think it'd be interesting. To see if he could back up his claims. I'm looking it reminded me. So I did a search on on the web for that song and found it and found some other stuff, too and I'm looking at the anti Calvinist logic and rhetoric on one particular site and it's pretty typical of This individual and others like what you played that they don't know what they're criticizing.

I Find that up to be the case almost all the time. They don't understand what we teach they misrepresent it and misrepresent scripture in the process. I mean, they're not interested in having a serious dialogue.

They're only interested in Apparently a condemnation mockery and things like that. Well, that's Bible does say in Colossians 4 5 6. This is something that the these people like that should Should pay attention to it says conduct yourself with wisdom toward outsiders because he would say we were an outsider.

We're not a Christian making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace seasoned with salt. So, you know how you should respond each person. He's obviously not doing that. Being mocking condescending.

Insulting this is what we get from atheists and Muslims. And so when they joined ranks with that approach. They're joining ranks with the accuser who spreads lies and misrepresentation, so, you know, I would just urge people like that to If you want debate me talk with me about it.

That's what I'd like. Just talk to me about it. It'd be great.

Yeah, and and I mean, I think that do. You're you're Calvinist you have a website Calvinist corner. Do you worship or I forget how he worded it?

You hold on even tulip not Jesus. Yeah.

So is that descriptive of a Calvinist? No.

We don't put gonna put our faith in tulip put our faith in Jesus. You know, but like I said, you know people who say these kind of things are incredibly ignorant. They don't even and and they're not even teachable.

Well, I found many such people have no patience to be taught to be corrected. They are the ones who are right and they're the ones who will condemn everybody.

And it's you know, it's very sad. All right, let's play the last 30 seconds of it.

He rejected it and said he would go his own way. He called it easy believism and said he wasn't saved. I said no duh. He's stupid Calvinist. I already knew that. Yes, Calvinists are not saved and that's just the way it is.

Calvinists are reprobates and some things will never change. Calvinists are not saved and that's just the way it is. Are a bunch of stupid idiots and I don't believe that they're safe. Thank you. We are all.

All right, so that That was Andrew from down under wanted us to to respond to that. I think the the response is Yeah, that's not very Christian like mannerisms behavior speech. It's Not even descriptive of what Calvinist would believe.

No, and I mean a complete misrepresentation. But the victory all is what would concern me. Yeah.

Yeah, it's bad news is it's it's not something I've I've not come across before I have. You know, it's it's just ignorance on their part. They don't know theology. Yeah.

So on karma, I'm gonna try to see if I can get there to some new articles. You've released a couple new articles. I want to to start discussing because you you released several articles on slavery and Trying to maneuver.

I had them all up nicely and all ready to ask you some questions. The first one I remember that I wanted to ask is what is? Slavery. You you had an article on that so.

Slavery is different kinds of slavery a lot of times what people do is when they think of slavery. They think of the chattel slavery of the United States Western Europe in the past few hundred years chattel slavery is when a slave a person is owned by Another person and that person who is owned does not have any rights at all can be Beaten there's no punishment for for that.

There's no consequence for that and that's chattel slavery and that's not the slavery of the Bible not even close slavery of the Bible is unfortunate in its existing because of the sin of people in the world is like murder exists rape and lying and slavery does and What God did was he permitted slavery to occur as he permits all kinds of things to occur and he gave Restrictions and warnings To people about the nature of slavery the extent of slavery now.

There are several words for slavery that are translated from the Hebrew into the English as slave and none of them have direct correspondence to To the terms that we would use in slavery context in the English.

That's one of the unfortunate things. So nevertheless the kinds of slavery that exists in the Old Testament are basically indentured servitude to slavery slavery by capture of war and a Lot of times people become slaves.

Well, if those are the main two categories mainly It's what we find is that the slaves had a lot of rights and So I wrote it on that as well but He was to a slave was not to be. We can go to different verses different issues.

One of the things that's really interesting. I don't have all the verses memorized but Slaves that escaped their masters were not to be returned and there's a verse that says that There we go. I found it.

That's Deuteronomy 23 15 through 16 a slave that escaped his master was not to be returned but property was to be returned Leviticus 25 46 21 32 out of Exodus so they were considered a form of property but not by their their soul or their physical body, but more by the Ability of them to work and that the work was considered property.

There's verses. I think it's Leviticus 25 46. No, it's not. It's it's you know, let me get to it. It's Exodus 21 and verses 20 and 21 It says if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand He shall be punished if however, he survives a day or two.

No vengeance shall be taken for he is his property. But the word property there Actually means silver or money in the Hebrew and so it's that's what it's talking about. Here's the idea that he's it's his money.

So that this is a foreign concept to us where a person was was considered you know, he had to work for five years or 20 years if that was a monetary equivalent and that says if he dies the master loses the monetary equivalent of work and so that can be sold and Transferred to others.

And so when it says he is his property what it really is saying is it's his money. And so they were not property in that strict sense since direct property strict property was we returned but slaves were not to be returned.

So there's this balance between them. It's kind of hard to explain. But the more you study it the more you see that's the case in scripture I got a lot more I could say but go ahead.

Well, you you know, I like you had eight different things at discussing slavery in the Bible on the article that you had on what is slavery and This contradicts what people think of as slavery in America because in America we think of the they kidnap people.

Which is by the way in the scriptures something that you can't do so. The Bible would never have endorsed the African slave trade right just on that alone the African slave trade and even in Rome They would argue that it is That people were property.

You already addressed that but you have eight things about slavery in the Bible. When a slave was freed he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically in Deuteronomy 15 that that flies in the face of what people would think of Slavery because it because this is the challenge everywhere.

You we always hear this that the Bible the Bible accepts slavery. Actually, here's someone right now saying slavery is inexcusable. I hope that they would come come go to politics live comm join us and let's discuss that.

Because I would I'd love to to see What folks think about that and Actually engage with us. And number two you have here is that the slave was required to participate in religious observances. A Master who punished his slave then and then died was punished himself, which if he's property That wouldn't be.

That that wouldn't be and you know The if he was if he was property master wouldn't suffer any consequence of that. Number three or sorry number four you say that you have the slave was a member of the master's household.

Leviticus 22 slave was required to rest on the Sabbath. So he's supposed to honor the Sabbath. A Person can sell himself into slavery. That's something that people don't realize. This was an economic system.

An escaped slave Was not to be returned as as if they were property. This is Deuteronomy 23, which is very interesting in that context and I think it's Deuteronomy 22. It talks about if a cattle Gets is found you're to return it.

But if a slave you don't return him making it clear that he's not property and then the eighth one you have on you on your article is a slave could become free after six years of service in The year of the Jubilee the marriage of the master's son.

Um Let's see. Sorry, I lost my place the marriage of the master's son or refused to marriage would then be set free due to injury. And then purchasing his own freedom. Now, that's it. The last one's interesting purchasing his own freedom because they'd say well They don't have any money.

However in Scripture slaves would get a half-day's wage. So it's not the Indentured servitude that so many people think it is or claim that it is. Yep.

Yeah, if you kidnap someone and made them a slave that was punishable by death and In chattel slavery, that's what happened with the slaves from Africa. They were kidnapped but biblically. Kidnapping someone Deuteronomy 24 7 that was punishable by death.

That's you. Yeah.

And John is saying Tyler Villa wrote a whole series on this topic on freed thinker by blog and he did. He has three excellent articles goes into detail on these. Recommend folks to go out there and check that out.

Does the Bible Approve of Slavery?

But on karma you have another one. What does does the Bible approve of slavery? So with this article met. This is really where people challenge us, right? They challenge us because. The argument that's made is the fact that somehow if we talk about slavery in the Bible Then the Bible must be accepting of the slavery that we saw in America and elsewhere.

And that's ignorance, but people don't understand. There's different kinds of slavery in the world and that exists today. There's 27 to 48 million slaves in the world today and chattel slavery is what most people are familiar with and then they impute that.

Or transfer that meaning into the biblical account and say well, that's that's what how it's supposed to be. And no, it's not. It's I forget your question knows a preliminary. Is gonna get into something.

I forgot it was dang it.

Okay, so we're talking about what the Bible the Bible proves of slavery. Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't approve of it any more than it approves of.

Of war what it does is it works with it and Will use it to accomplish. God will use it these things to accomplish as well. So war for example is not something God desires and wants to occur in a direct sense, but an indirect sense.

Yes, you can use it and he uses it to clean out people's Clocking cleaner clocks, but slavery a lot of people don't understand. I did a lot of research in Slavery on Let's see Let's see quotes from ancient Near East law codes regarding slavery.

And I went through seven different codes or Namu lipid ishtar Ashnuna Hammurabi Hittites Middle Assyrian and the twelve tables of Roman law and these range anywhere from 2100 BC to 450 BC and I went through these things and then if you go to the article you can see the brief summary of slavery in ancient Near East.

There are different kinds of slaves there to punishment of slaves took many forms from beating to Cutting off the ear salt in the mouth or paying repairing or suey repaying grain for theft of grain generic.

There's another thing slaves can be bought sold freed. There were palace slaves. And the one who returned a fugitive slave was rewarded as a cutter, you know, the scriptures taught the contrary that. You could become a slave by entering by debt.

Punishment for harming a slave was by paying silver replacing slaves. Repaying silver for knocking out teeth paying silver for breaking slaves arm or leg paying copper coins causing a slave to miscarry.

Could be freed. Or punished at that point deflowering a female slave must pay five shekels. That's out of the code of or Namu you read all these I got these where they are and. And free people as well as slaves in Israel and the ancient Near East were all beaten as a form of punishment.

A lot of people don't know that. But nevertheless God doesn't approve of it in the sense of hey, this is what I want. This is great. I like it. This is good stuff. No, he permits it and then he restricts it so Statistically a lot of people don't realize that in some parts of the ancient Near East one in twenty people were slaves in Rome.

It was up to one in five people were slaves. So what would happen in an economy save a million people in a nation where let's just say one in ten people were slaves. And you suddenly freed so to speak all these slaves in a million people one in ten is a hundred thousand people.

Well, what's what's going to happen? Where does a hundred thousand people go to for food? Where do they go to for shelter? What properties do they have all of a sudden? What do they do they go back to their original lands if they were bought from that context, how do they get there?

They had the money to get there. They aren't able to travel. There's it's really a serious issue and some I've read articles before where if slavery were to suddenly end in Rome. It would have been absolute economic collapse.

This doesn't make it. Okay. It's just a fact it. Absolute economic collapse which would have resulted in plague and famine. Because the economy would have tanked people have died starvation been rioting the whole bit.

So if God were to say no more slavery right now. Well, what's he going to do miraculous make everybody have different parts of land or two buildings? The streams are now in all parts of land. So they got fish in there so they can eat and everything's taken care of it doesn't work like that.

So God isn't improving of Approving of it. He's limiting in it. He is using it because it's the choice of men to commit slavery not the choice of God. And so God doesn't approve of it he permits it. He allows it like he allows murder and rape and he permits these things.

He permits various people to sin in various ways. That's what what that's about.

Ancient Slavery, Economic Systems, and Biblical Limits

So one of the articles was very interesting that you did and look at the title. What are the different kinds of slavery in the world? I found this fascinating. You basically have in there a chart of The different types of Slater slavery that there are.

I was actually was very glad to see You included sex slavery because that's that I find that so interesting. The people who are so against slavery That occurred a hundred fifty years ago. Seem to not care at all that there's a slavery that goes on today.

Right, and in fact many of them I think I would argue support that slavery in their Pornography watching right because that's where you end up having a lot of that sex slaving that they end up being involved in.

So I Found this very interesting. You look at this. Well, let me ask it this way. I'll ask you when you look at these. Give a high-level overview of the different types of slavery that we have in the world.

And and then explain which one you think the Bible it fits into.

Well, there's chattel slavery and. That still exists in the world. It never existed in the Bible though. Indentured servitude. That's basically the kind that was in the Bible mostly.

Explain cattle if you could because I don't know folks.

Chattel explain that chattel it means that the the person himself or herself is owned and Has no rights has no rights. That's it. They can be beaten. They can be murdered. They can be fed not fed for a while chained up not whatever no rights.

Traded sold that's what chattel slavery is. The Bible never supports that the Bible actually condemns that and then indentured servitude. Indentured Servitude is that you owe somebody money and you go into Service and until it's worked off and paid off and it's usually by contract.

But indentured servants particularly the Israelites were to be set free in a year of Jubilee, which was every seven years. So they only had six years to work and then they were set free in the year of Jubilee.

So that's indentured servitude it occurs today and in serfdom Slavery occurs the day. It's a contractual agreement where you work land do certain things but unfortunately in serfdom thought history and sometimes presently a physical abuse was approved of.

But physical abuse is not approved of in the Bible. Now it does talk about in this is a an important verse worth taking a look at. I'll explain it. If a man strikes is a male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand.

He shall be punished now doesn't say what the punishment is. But if you go to verse 12 just in the same chapter he who strikes that man. So that he dies shall surely be put to death. It appears that the punishment that the master would receive if he killed his servant Would be that he'd be executed himself.

There are other places I'll get back to this in a second you go to in chapter 21 verse 24 I Know it's not there. Yeah, it's 26. If a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave and destroys it He shall let him go free on account of his eye if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave.

He shall let him go on it for an account of his tooth. Well in chattel slavery That's not the case. You beat somebody you blind them you break an arm you knock your teeth out. That's that's has no bearing on any punishment for the The owner so to speak of the master.

So this kind of stuff prevents chattel slavery. But let's talk about this issue a lot of people like to bring up the atheists like to bring up is because of this verse excess 21 20 to 21 that I started studying this because atheists past few weeks have been bringing it up to me so I said, okay, I'm gonna study it and a rod is not an instrument of death.

A rod is Used as a it's also translated as scepter it can mean several things, but it's never an instrument of death. It's never intended to be an instrument of death any more than a spoon would be. A spoon is not an instrument of death.

But you could use it to kill somebody if you know what to do in order to apply it. So it's not an instrument of death and it says if he dies at his hand, he'll be punished. However, if he survives a day or two.

That means that he can stand for a day or two. No vengeance shall be taken for his property. It looks like what the vengeance is is related to the punishment which is related to capital punishment. In other words, it looks like what this is saying.

Is that if the master? Strikes and and injures the slave. He'll be set free from later on in the text in 26 27. He says we set free. But if he dies, it's the issue if he dies. Then how long did it take for him to die if he died right away.

Then one interpretation is then the master is to be executed. But if he didn't die right away, then he's not to be executed and Because it that he's given him the benefit of the doubt that it was not an attempt at murder.

This is one of the theories that that is applied to this text. Another one is that verse 21 says that they survive not just for two days. But they survive but after this period of time, there's no punishment to given be given to the the master.

But the slave will be set free per the verses of 26 27. So this is not chattel slavery. It cannot be chattel slavery. We have forced labor today. Debt labor, which is the kind of labor that that debt labored and indentured.

Debt labor. I think it's in first or second Kings 4 1 Elijah is there and the woman says that the creditors come to take her two children for debt just as to be Taken for slaves. Well, it wasn't slaves in the sense of be beaten and all this stuff.

The master had to provide room and board. Water food everything had to take care of them and knowing that they'd be set free when a debt was paid. So this would mean they were fellow people fellow citizens in the community so you don't want to have someone that you've beaten and Then they're set free later on by man by mandate.

Because those people are going to talk about you to other people and then your reputation is going to be damaged. That's not something that the creditor would want so. What we don't have in Israel are jails.

You know in Israel proper not when Rome took over but in Israel proper they didn't have these things called jails so if you were to create a crime, you would often be sentenced to serve the Offended party to serve them until the debt was paid off.

Then you're set free wasn't just put in a jail where it was expensive to maintain expensive to build and expensive to employ the people who would then Take care of people and so that kind of a concept really wasn't there.

So what they would do is you had to go into a service and you had to pay and so that was the indebted. That was the debt labor that was there. So also there's sex slavery. That's alive today. That was never the case in Israel anybody a woman who's taken and was used for sex was to be married in order to do that and marriage had Certain privileges to it and responsibilities and domestic servitude.

That's kind of a real loose way of saying servants who can get paid just to work and then of course child soldiers is another kind of of Slavery that goes on with her kidnapped brainwashed and forced to kill and shoot and all this kind of stuff.

So there's different kind that are existing today and the kind that exists in the Bible could be considered indentured and even forced labor. If you want to look at forced labor as a type of punishment.

Because someone who you know committed a crime will be forced to go in and pay off a debt through service so those are the kinds that were Allowed there or debt labor. So be indentured. Debt labor and forced labor were the main kinds that were approved of or I should say worked with and I actually could say those were approved of in the scriptures because it was a means of paying off debt and Instead of just getting off where you don't do anything.

You know, it's approved to pay to be responsible for your actions and to pay off the debts what you've incurred so in that sense, yeah, it's approved of but not in the chattel slavery sense not in the Child soldier select sense or sex slavery sense things like that.

Slavery, Free Will, and Economic Comparisons

Yeah, because I think one of the things that people do is they think that wealth if slavery is mentioned is We. That doesn't mean God always Approves of it. Well, we see slavery mentioned the Roman Slavery, which is not what God would you know?

God would be against that and yet even in that system when Philemon he sent back to you know, or Odysseus is sent back to Philemon and We don't see something saying. Oh, well, you know, you should just run away because he shouldn't be.

He shouldn't be there. I Think of and I'm gonna I'm gonna I know some folks were in earlier I'm probably gonna jump to Ethan because I know he wanted to be on this topic but let me say this before we bring Ethan in is I think the best way Matt for us to think about the slavery that Is mentioned in the Old Testament that is approved by God.

Where he gives instruction on it what I think we end up seeing there is it's more like The way Japan's economic system is set up and for folks that don't understand Japan. People would work for a company for generation.

I mean like your you'd work for your company your parents work for the company company owns everything the company is. That basically the company would Buy your house buy your cars buy your cell phones buy your clothes.

Pay for education everything the whole nine yards. And so the idea being that well if the company does better than you can do better and That way that was the incentive to get them working. So What we end up seeing is that?

They that system is very similar to the Old Testament system. They're still individuals. They're not property. They there's rules on what could and couldn't happen with with the the owners, you know or employers think of it that way, but Japan is probably the closest we have today to the slavery that would we'd see described in the Old Testament Bible.

That doesn't mean that there weren't others that were abusing slavery. There were we see that and just because they've abused it. We still see God, you know in the example of Philemon He's not telling them to run away.

He's he's not telling him to avoid it he's saying to submit especially if Odysseus had stolen some money. So let me bring Ethan in. Let's see Ethan you can unmute yourself. Let's see if I can I can't unmute you so you'll have to unmute yourself.

I know he popped up there for a second. He was asking some questions In in this in the chat. There we go, so Ethan you're sideways maybe turn your your phone there a bit. Now you're upside down. That looks good.

He's gonna eventually get there. Turn it turn it 180 degrees and then unmute yourself. All right, try speaking. So we see if we hear you don't hear you. You're probably on a phone or something. All right, well, we'll leave you in while you work that out just give a shout when you if you figure that out I'll bring Andrew in he was first one in.

I'll just put Ethan in the back in the back. Ethan. Just let us know when you're when you think you're ready. Your first one in Andrew you gave us that wonderful Rendition of Calvinists are not saved.

Thank you for that torture. You got to unmute yourself there we don't hear you until you unmute.

A Caller’s Question About Slavery and Free Will

Okay. Sorry. Let's think about that for a second. Um, yeah. Came across that one on Jeff Durbin's channel this morning when he was doing a premiere. It's actually pretty hilarious. I put checked it out.

Then I thought I'd throw it onto somebody else.

Yeah, well, thanks that thanks for that torture. Did you have? Did you have any questions for us tonight or?

Well, I was gonna say it was cringeworthy, but it made me laugh. So I was hoping it might send some kind of, you know relief amongst tension. But anyway. Yeah, so the slavery is Obviously confused. The literal slaves.

Would they also would the world can be confusing slaves of righteousness with the slavery.

So So you're saying would people confuse this us being slaves of righteousness with the Slavery that we see like it like the young slave trade. Is that what your question? Yeah, that's right. So yeah, I Guess your question would just be because the word slave is used.

Yeah, because the word slave is used I think that would automatically think Oh slave. Like when my church did this a couple of weeks ago in subjects that we were looking at and one of them was actually slavery and it was the international justice mission that came out and spoke to the church one of the guys that they actually got true stories of people going into the modern-day slavery and rescuing people.