Slavery in the Bible

Okay, this is take two. We'll try this again and see if this uh if we get a

Feedback now, of course everyone is For folks to come back in Okay, test one two.

Yeah That seems like it's better Yeah, probably just extra thing running on your system, yeah,

I don't know what that was, okay well, oh

All right. Now, of course, we gotta wait for everyone to get back in So this

Calvinist anti -calvinist guy really wants to come in and talk I'm hoping so I'd love to talk to him

Oh the guy that sends it no Andrews Andrew from down under sent us that that song. Oh, okay

He wants that he wanted us to respond to that. So yeah, that would be great if we could get that guy That'd be fun.

Maybe we will play that later and get everyone to guilt him into coming in All right

Some technical glitches people are coming back Sorry about that All right.

The echo is gone. I have no idea what that was. It was weird, but we'll start over All right, look up I'll play the intro music dad why bother all right, so hey

Matt, how are you I'm fine. Hang it in there Technology is great

Well for the most part it is it works usually works really well Did you disappear?

I think someone's technology challenged. Yeah, I just I just I guess exited somehow

Wow, that was strange. Okay. All right How many people are watching? I can't see we got nine or ten back in.

Okay so, all right, well Well, let's just pick up from here

Matt where we were going to now that I had to close down all those windows I had I had all my Windows open to calm on some new new articles that you put out

On slavery so we could we either do that We I could go through the slavery questions at first or do you want to go through this

Calvinist? song that we had Might be fun for this Calvinist song and then we can while people are getting in here and then we can

Talk about the slavery thing. Okay Okay. Well, let us let me share this so people can watch and can can see there's not much on this but You know, at least people would be able to see this

So here's here's here is the Calvinists are not saved cover song

And I'll stop this where he he just has long periods of just music. I'll let

Matt respond at each of these spots. So This will be fun for you. Okay, this song is entitled

Calvinists are not saved here goes Standing in line on Judgment Day waiting for the

God of Calvinism to say that I did a good job But then the real

Jesus hurries by and stares at me like I'm an unsaved guy Then he damn my soul to hell

Calvinists are not saved here goes Calvinists are not saved.

It's the way it is. Calvinists are a bunch of stupid idiots. No, I don't believe that they're saved

Okay, let's pause right there in that first part there Matt. So what are you? well

When people tell me I've had people tell me before that Calvinists are not saved and and then I just say okay

Sure, I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it. I'll do it The Bible backing for that why those of us who believe that That people are touched by sin in every part of the of what they are

Uh can't be saved or that we teach that The sinful person can't come to Christ on his own, but has to be granted faith.

Look at 129 Granted to come to Christ. Uh, john 665. Why are we not saved for that?

or uh that we believe that god unconditionally elects people doesn't look into the hearts of anybody to see what good quality they have and election based on God's sovereign choice

Ephesians 1 11 not what's in people. Otherwise, that would be Partial favoritism, which is condemned in James 2 2 through 4

Or if we teach that Jesus canceled the sin dead at the cross not of everybody but only those who are the elect at Colossians 2 14, but why are we going to hell or Irresistible grace, you know

That God at the point of regeneration not that grace can't be resisted But it's only it's just irresistible grace means that at the point of regeneration that we can't successfully resist

God's will in that We will be regenerated at John 3 3 through 5 second Corinthians 5 17

Why is that wrong a perseverance of the Saints which Jesus says he will lose none John 6 47 through 40

Why are we going to hell for that? I mean, that's what I asked me to ask him. Give me the Scriptures Why are we going to hell for for things like that?

Well, that's what's gonna be lacking in this whole thing is Scripture, but a lot of claims You know made the claim.

We're not Calvin's not saved He made the claim

That they're reprobate But one of the things and especially his next section

I'll play the next 30 seconds Is this language we would expect to hear from a

Christian someone that professes to be saved listen to this next section Hey, they're stupid

Calvinist. You can't go where the others go Because you guys are not saved like they are

You trust it in your tulip instead of Jesus Christ Now you get to burn in hell forevermore

Cuz Calvinists are not Saved and that's just the way it is Calvinists are reprobates and some things will never change

Calvinists are not saved and that's just the way it is Calvinists are a bunch of stupid idiots.

No, I don't believe that they're saved okay, so Calvinists are just a bunch of stupid idiots.

That's is that language we would expect to hear from someone that's professing to be a Christian Now, well, you know, there are a lot of deceived people out there and Christians who can walk in varying levels of failure and their sanctification and Humility before God and that to me is an example of such a person

You know, I'd like to have a dialogue with someone like that. It'd be I think it'd be interesting To see if he could back up his claims

I'm looking it reminded me I tried I did a search on on the web for that song and found it and found some other stuff, too and I'm looking at the anti Calvinist logic and rhetoric on one particular site and it's pretty typical of This individual and others like what you played that they don't know what they're criticizing

I find that up to be the case almost all the time They don't understand what we teach they misrepresent it and misrepresent scripture in the process

I mean, they're not interested in having a serious dialogue. They're only interested in apparently

Condemnation mockery and things like that That's Bible does say in Colossians 4 5 & 6.

This is something that these people like that should It should pay attention to it says conduct yourself with wisdom toward outsiders because you would say we were an outsider

We're not a Christian making the most of the opportunity. Let your speech always be with grace seasoned with salt So, you know how you should respond each person.

He's obviously not doing that Being mocking condescending insulting.

This is what we get from atheists and Muslims And so when they joined ranks with that approach, they're joining ranks with the accuser

Who spreads lies and misrepresentation? So, you know, I would just urge people like that to If you want to debate me and talk with me about it, that's what

I'd like. Just talk to me about it. It'd be great Yeah, and and I mean, I think that do

Your your Calvinist you have a website Calvinist corner. Do you worship or I forget how he worded it?

You hold on even tulip not Jesus. Yeah So is that descriptive of a

Calvinist? No We don't put gonna put our faith in tulip put our faith in Jesus, you know, but like I said, you know people who say these kind of things are incredibly ignorant

They don't even and and they're not even teachable Well, I found many such people have no patience to be taught to be corrected

They are the ones who are right and they're the ones who will condemn everybody It's you know, it's very sad

All right, let's play the last 30 seconds of it He rejected it and said he would go his own way

He called it easy believism and said he wasn't saved I said no duh stupid

Calvinist already knew that It's Calvinist are not saved and that's just the way it is

Calvinist our reprobates And some things will never change Calvinists are not saved and that's just the way it is

Calvinists are a bunch of stupid idiots, and I don't believe that they're saying Thank you we are all all right, so that That that was

Andrew from down under wanted us to to respond to that I think the the response is

Yeah, that's not very Christian like mannerisms behavior or speech it's

Not even descriptive of what Calvinist would believe no, and I mean a complete misrepresentation, but The victory all is what would concern me

Yeah Yeah, it's bad news It's it's not something

I've I've not come across before I have You know, it's it's just ignorance on their part

They don't know theology. Yeah So on karma,

I'm gonna try to see if I can get there to some new articles You've released a couple new articles. I want to to start discussing because you you released several articles on slavery

And Trying to maneuver. I had them all up nicely and all ready to ask you some questions

The first one I remember that I wanted to ask is what is Slavery you you had an article on that.

So Yeah, slavery is different kinds of slavery. A lot of times what people do is when they think of slavery

They think of the chattel slavery of the United States Western Europe in the past few hundred years Chattel slavery is when a slave a person is owned by Another person and that person who is owned does not have any rights at all can be

Beaten there's no punishment for for that. There's no consequence for that and that's chattel slavery

That's not the slavery of the Bible not even close slavery of the Bible is

Unfortunate in its existing because of the sin of people in the world is like murder exists rape and lying and slavery does and What God did was he permitted slavery to occur as he permits all kinds of things to occur and he gave restrictions and warnings

To people about the nature of slavery the extent of slavery now There are several words for slavery that are translated from the

Hebrew into the English as slave and none of them have direct correspondence to To the terms that we would use in slavery context in the

English. That's one of the unfortunate things so nevertheless the kinds of slavery that exists in the

Old Testament are basically indentured servitude to slavery slavery by capture of war and a

Lot of times people become slaves. Well, if those are the main two categories mainly It's what we find is that the slaves had a lot of rights and So I wrote it on that as well but he was to a slave was not to be

We can go to different verses different issues. One of the things that's really interesting. I don't have all the verses memorized but Slaves that escaped their masters were not to be returned and there's a verse that says that There we go.

I found it That's Deuteronomy 23 15 through 16 a slave that escaped his master was not to be returned but property was to be returned

Leviticus 25 46 21 32 out of Exodus So they were considered a form of property but not by their their soul or their physical body but more by the

Ability of them to work and that the work was considered property. There's verses. I think it's

Leviticus 25 46 No, it's not. It's uh, it's let me get to it.

It's Exodus 21 and verses 20 and 21

It says if a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand He shall be punished if however, he survived a day or two.

No vengeance shall be taken for he is his property But the word property there Actually means silver or money in the

Hebrew and so it's that's what it's talking about. Here's the idea that he's it's his money

So that this is a foreign concept to us where a person was was considered you know had to work for five years or twenty years that that was a monetary equivalent and That says if he dies the master loses the monetary equivalent of work and so that can be sold and Transferred to others.

And so when it says he is his property what it really is saying is it's his money and So they were not property in that strict sense since direct property strict property was be returned

But slaves were not to be returned. So there's this balance between them It's kind of hard to explain but the more you study it the more you see that's the case in script

I got a lot more I could say but go ahead well, you you know, I like you had eight different things at discussing slavery in the

Bible on the article that you had on what is slavery and This contradicts what people think of as slavery in America because in America we think of the they kidnap people which is by the way in the scriptures something that you can't do so The Bible would never have endorsed the

African slave trade right just on that alone The African slave trade and even in Rome they would argue that it is

That people were property you already addressed that but you have eight things about slavery in the Bible When a slave was freed he was to receive gifts that enabled him to survive economically in Deuteronomy 15 that that flies in the face of what people would think of Slavery because it because this is the challenge everywhere you we always hear this that the

Bible the Bible accepts slavery Actually, here's someone right now saying slavery is inexcusable

I hope that they would come come go to politics live .com join us and let's discuss that Because I would

I'd love to to see What folks think about that and Actually engage with us number two you have here is that the slave was required to participate in religious observances a

Master who punished his slave then and then died was punished himself, which if he's property

That wouldn't be That that wouldn't be and you know

The if he was if he was property master wouldn't suffer any consequence of that Number three or sorry number four you say that you have the slave was a member of the master's household

Leviticus 22 slave was required to rest on the Sabbath. So he's supposed to honor the

Sabbath a Person can sell himself into slavery. That's something that people don't realize.

This was an economic system an escaped slave Was not to be returned as as if they were property

This is Deuteronomy 23, which is very interesting in that context, and I think it's Deuteronomy 22.

It talks about if a cattle Gets is found you're to return it But if a slave you don't return him making it clear that he's not property and then the eighth one you have on you on your article is a slave could become free after six years of service in The year of the

Jubilee the marriage of the master's son Um Let's see

Sorry, I lost my place the marriage of the master's son or refused to marriage would then be set free due to injury

And then purchasing his own freedom. Now that's interesting. The last one is interesting purchasing his own freedom because they'd say well

They don't have any money. However in Scripture slaves would get a half -day's wage. So it's not the

Indentured servitude that so many people think it is or claim that it is Yep Yeah, if you kidnap someone and made them a slave that was punishable by death and In chattel slavery, that's what happened with the slaves from Africa.

They were kidnapped, but biblically Kidnapping someone Deuteronomy 24 7 that was punishable by death

That's yeah. Yeah And John is saying Tyler Villa wrote a whole series on this topic on freed thinker by log and he did he has three excellent articles goes into detail on these

Recommend folks to go out there and check that out But on karma you have another one. What does does the

Bible approve of slavery? So with this article met This is really where people challenge us, right?

They challenge us because The argument that's made is the fact that somehow if we talk about slavery in the

Bible Then the Bible must be accepting of the slavery that we saw in America and elsewhere

And that's ignorance, but people don't understand there's different kinds of slavery in the world and that exists today

There's 27 to 48 million slaves in the world today and chattel slavery is what most people are familiar with and then they impute that or Transfer that meaning into the biblical account and say well, that's that's what how it's supposed to be.

And no, it's not It's I forget your question knows a preliminary is gonna get into something

I forgot it was dang it Okay, so we're talking about what the Bible the Bible proves of slavery.

Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't approve of it any more than it approves of of war

What it does is it works with it and we'll use it to accomplish God will use it these things to accomplish as well

So war for example is not something God desires and wants to occur in a direct sense, but an indirect sense

Yes, you can use it and he uses it to clean out people's Clocking cleaner clocks, but slavery a lot of people don't understand.

I did a lot of research in Slavery on Let's see

Let's see quotes from ancient Near East law codes regarding slavery And I went through seven different codes or Namu lipid ishtar

Ashnuna Hammurabi Hittites Middle Assyrian and the twelve tables of Roman law and these range anywhere from 2100

BC to 450 BC and I went through these things and then if you go to the article you can see the brief summary of slavery in ancient

Near East There are different kinds of slaves there to punishment of slaves took many forms from beating to Cutting off the ear salt in the mouth or paying repairing or suey repaying grain for theft of grain generic

There's another thing slaves could be bought sold freed There were palace slaves

And the one who returned a fugitive slave was rewarded. That's kind of you know, the scriptures taught the contrary that You could become a slave by entering by debt

Punishment for harming a slave was by paying silver replacing slaves Repaying silver for knocking out teeth paying silver for breaking slaves arm or leg paying copper coins causing a slave to miscarry

Could be freed Or punished at that point deflowering a female slave must pay five shekels.

That's out of the code of or Namu you read all these I got these where they are and And free people as well as slaves in Israel and the ancient

Near East were all beaten as a form of punishment. A lot of people don't know that But nevertheless

God doesn't approve of it in the sense of hey, this is what I want. This is great. I like it

This is good stuff. No, he permits it and then he restricts it. So Statistically a lot of people don't realize that in some parts of the ancient

Near East one in twenty people were slaves in Rome It was up to one in five people were slaves

So what would happen in an economy save a million people in a nation? Where let's just say one in ten people were slaves and you suddenly freed so to speak all these slaves in a million people

One in ten is a hundred thousand people. Well, what's what's going to happen? Where does a hundred thousand people go to for food?

Where do they go to for shelter? What properties do they have all of a sudden what do they do they go back to their original lands if they were bought from that Context, how do they get there?

They had the money to get there. They aren't able to travel there's it's really a serious issue and some

I've read articles before where if slavery were to suddenly end in Rome It would have been absolute economic collapse.

This doesn't make it. Okay. It's just a fact it Absolute economic collapse which would have resulted in plague and famine

Because the economy would have tanked people have died starvation been rioting the whole bit So if God were to say no more slavery right now

Well, what's he going to do miraculous make everybody have different parts of land or two buildings? The streams are now in all parts of lands and you got fish in there so they can eat and everybody's taken care of It doesn't work like that So God isn't improving up Approving of it.

He's limiting in it He is using it because it's the choice of men to commit slavery not the choice of God And so God doesn't approve of it.

He permits it He allows it like he allows murder and rape and he permits these things

He permits various people to sin in various ways. That's what what that's about So one of the articles was very interesting that you did and look at the title

What are the different kinds of slavery in the world? I found this fascinating you basically have in there a chart of the different types of Slater slavery that there are

I was actually was very glad to see You included sex slavery because that's that I find that so interesting the people who are so against slavery

That occurred a hundred fifty years ago Seem to not care at all that there's a slavery that goes on today

Right, and in fact many of them I think I would argue support that slavery in their pornography watching

Right, because that's where you end up having a lot of that sex slavery that they end up being involved in so I Found this very interesting

Because you look at this Well, let me ask it this way. I'll ask you when you look at these

Give a high -level overview of the different types of slavery that we have in the world and and then explain which one you think the

Bible it fits into well, there's chattel slavery and That still exists in the world.

It never existed in the Bible though indentured servitude That's basically the kind that was in the

Bible mostly Explain cattle if you could because I don't know folks Chattel explain that chattel.

It means that the the person himself or herself is owned and Has no rights has no rights

That's it. They can be beaten. They can be murdered. They can be fed not fed for a while chained up not whatever no rights

Traded sold that's what chattel slavery is. The Bible never supports that the

Bible actually condemns that and then indentured servitude Indentured Servitude is that you owe somebody money and you go into Service and until it's worked off and paid off and it's usually by contract

But indentured servants particularly the Israelites were to be set free in a year of Jubilee, which was every seven years

So they only had six years to work and then they were set free in the year of Jubilee So that's indentured servitude it occurs today and Serfdom slavery occurs today.

It's it's a contractual agreement where you work land do certain things but unfortunately in serfdom thought history and sometimes presently a physical abuse was approved of But physical abuse is not approved of in the

Bible Now it does talk about in this is a an important verse worth taking a look at I'll explain it

If a man strikes is a male or female slave with a rod and he dies at his hand He shall be punished now doesn't say what the punishment is.

But if you go to verse 12 Just in the same chapter he who strikes that man so that he dies shall surely be put to death

It appears that the punishment that the master would receive if he killed his servant

Would be that he'd be executed himself There are other places I'll get back to this in a second

You go to in chapter 21 verse 24 No, it's not there

Yeah If 26 if a man strikes the eye of his male or female slave and destroys it He shall let him go free on account of his eye if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave

He shall let him go on it for an account of his tooth. Well in chattel slavery. That's not the case

You beat somebody you blind them you break an arm you knock your teeth out. That's that's

Has no bearing on any punishment for the The owner so to speak of the master, but so this kind of stuff prevents chattel slavery

But let's talk about this issue a lot of people like to bring up The atheists like to bring up is because of this verse

Exodus 21 20 through 21 that I started studying this because the atheists Past few weeks have been bringing it up to me.

So I said, okay, I'm gonna study it and a rod is not an instrument of death a rod is

Used as a it's also translated as scepter it can mean several things but it's never an instrument of death

It's never intended to be an instrument of death any more than a spoon would be a spoon is not an instrument of death

But you could use it to kill somebody if you know what to do in order to apply it So it's not an instrument of death and it says if he dies at his hand, he'll be punished

However, if he survives a day or two That means that he can stand for a day or two

No vengeance shall be taken for his property It looks like what the vengeance is is related to the punishment which is related to capital punishment

In other words, it looks like what this is saying. Is that if the master? strikes and and injures the slave

He'll be set free from later on in the text in 26 27. He says we set free

But if he dies, this is the issue if he dies Then how long did it take for him to die if he died right away

Then one interpretation is then the master is to be executed. But if he didn't die right away, then he's not to be executed and Because it that he's given him the benefit of the doubt that it was not an attempt at murder

This is one of the theories that that is applied to this text Another one is that verse 21 says that they survive not just for two days

But they survive but after this period of time, there's no punishment to given be given to the

Master, but the slave will be set free per the verses of 26 27 So this is not chattel slavery.

It cannot be chattel slavery. We have forced labor today Debt labor, which is the kind of labor that that debt labored and indentured

Debt labor. I think it's in first or second Kings 4 1 Elijah is there and the woman says that the creditors come to take her two children for debt just as to be

Taken for slaves Well, it wasn't slaves in the sense of be beaten and all this stuff the master had to provide room and board

Water food everything had to take care of them and knowing that they'd be set free when a debt was paid

So this would mean they were fellow people fellow citizens in the community so you don't want to have someone that you've beaten and Then they're set free later on by man by mandate

Because those people are going to talk about you to other people and then your reputation is going to be damaged that's not something that the creditor would want so What we don't have in Israel are jails

You know in Israel proper not when Rome took over but in Israel proper they didn't have these things called jails so if you were to create a crime, you would often be sentenced to serve the

Offended party to serve them until the debt was paid off. Then you're set free Wasn't just put in a jail where it was expensive to maintain expensive to build and expensive to employ the people who would then

Take care of people and so that kind of a concept really wasn't there So what they would do is you had to go into a service and you had to pay and so that was the indebted

That was the debt labor that was there. So also there's sex slavery. That's alive today.

That was never the case in Israel anybody a woman who's taken and was used for sex was to be married in order to do that and marriage had

Certain privileges to it and responsibilities and domestic servitude That's kind of a real loose way of saying servants who can get paid just to work and then of course child soldiers is another kind of of Slavery that goes on with her kidnapped brainwashed and forced to kill and shoot and all this kind of stuff

So there's a different kind that are existing today and the kind that exists in the Bible could be considered indentured and even forced labor

If you want to look at forced labor as a type of punishment Because someone who you know committed a crime will be forced to go in and pay off a debt through service so those are the kinds that were

Allowed there or debt labor. So be indentured debt labor and forced labor or the main kinds that were approved of or I should say worked with and I actually could say those were approved of in the scriptures because it was a means of paying off debt and Instead of just getting off where you don't do anything

You know, it's approved to pay to be responsible for your actions and to pay off the debts what you've incurred so in that sense, yeah, it's approved of but not in the chattel slavery sense not in the

Child soldiers let sense or sex slavery sense things like that yeah, because I think one of the things that people do is they think that well if slavery is mentioned is

We That doesn't mean God always Approves of it.

Well, we see slavery mentioned the Roman Slavery, which is not what

God would you know, God would be against that and yet even in that system when

Philemon he sent back to you know, or Odysseus is sent back to Philemon and We don't see something saying oh, well, you know, you should just run away because he shouldn't be he shouldn't be there

I think of and I'm gonna I'm gonna I know some folks were in earlier I'm probably gonna jump to Ethan because I know he wanted to be on this topic but let me say this before we bring

Ethan in is I think the best way Matt for us to think about the slavery that is Mentioned in the

Old Testament that is approved by God Where he gives instruction on it what

I think we end up seeing there is it's more like The way Japan's economic system is set up and for folks that don't understand

Japan People would work for a company for generation I mean like your you'd work for your company your parents work for the company company owns everything the company is

That basically the company would Buy your house buy your cars buy your cell phones buy your clothes

Pay for education everything the whole nine yards And so the idea being that well if the company does better than you can do better and That way that was the incentive to get them working.

So What we end up seeing is that? They that system is very similar to the

Old Testament system. They're still individuals. They're not property They there's rules on what could and couldn't happen with with the the owners, you know or employers think of it that way, but Japan is probably the closest we have today to the slavery that would we'd see described in the

Old Testament Bible That doesn't mean that there weren't others that were abusing slavery. There were we see that and just because they've abused it

We still see God, you know it in the example of Philemon He's not telling them to run away

He's he's not telling him to avoid it he's saying to submit especially if Odysseus had stolen some money

So let me bring Ethan in Let's see

Ethan you can unmute yourself. Let's see if I can I can't unmute you so you'll have to unmute yourself

I know he popped up there for a second. He was asking some questions In in this in the chat

There we go, so Ethan you're sideways maybe turn your your phone there a bit

Now you're upside down. That looks good. He's gonna eventually get there Turn it turn it 180 degrees and then unmute yourself

All right, try speaking. So we see if we hear you don't hear you

You're probably on a phone or something All right, well, we'll leave you in while you work that out just give a shout when you if you figure that out

I'll bring Andrew in he was first one in I'll just put

Ethan in the back in the back Ethan. Just let us know when you're when you think you're ready Your first one in Andrew you gave us that wonderful Rendition of Calvinists are not saved.

Thank you for that torture You got to unmute yourself there we don't hear you until you unmute

Okay, sorry Yeah came across that one on Jeff Durbin's channel this morning when he was doing a premiere

It's actually pretty hilarious. I put checked it out. Then. I thought I'd throw it onto somebody else Yeah, well, thanks that thanks for that torture.

Did you have? Did you have any questions for us tonight or? Well, I was gonna say it was cringe -worthy, but it made me laugh

So I was hoping it might send some kind of, you know relief amongst tension. But anyway

Yeah, so the slavery is Obviously confused

The literal slaves Would they also would the world can be confusing slaves of righteousness with the slavery

So So you're saying would people confuse this us being slaves of righteousness with the slavery that we see like Like the yeah,

I'm slave trip. Is that what your question? Yeah, that's right. So I Guess your question would just be because the word slave is used

Yeah, because the word slave is used. I think that would automatically think oh slave like Well, my church did this a couple of weeks ago in subjects that we were looking at and one of them was actually slavery and it was the international justice

Mission that came out and spoke to the church One of the guys that they actually got true stories of people going into the modern -day slavery and rescuing people

Wow, yeah Yeah, I mean there is slavery today I Think I mean

Matt. I am I'm guessing you to breathe a Fallacy of equivocation just the fact that the word slave appears doesn't mean it's the same slavery, right?

I Guess my immediate thinking though Andrew would be the fact that You know only one translation of the

Bible Consistently translates the word slave is slave and that's the Holman which is now out of print

They now call the Christian Standard Bible, yeah Yeah, and but if you notice most of the most of the translations will say, you know

Paul a servant of God When the actual Greek is a slave Yeah, because people have such a right do lash

Yeah, do loss and they because they feel just don't like the idea of slavery So the only time that slavery often is translated slave or slavery is when it's speaking of someone that's in slavery

That'd be my response man. I don't know what your thoughts would be on that. Yeah Like there's a in Australia we have what's a supporter what's called a supported wage scheme which is you either have full pay with less hours or Full hours less pay in the position that you occupy.

So for example, I was on this a couple of years ago before I was married the thing was

You you paid roughly three -quarters the wages of the birth of the other people

And you were essentially doing the same thing as them Would that also be considered a form of slavery?

Depend how you define slavery It's all by definitions a form of depends.

How are we defining it? That's that's just the issue Well just to give you a difference between the the the pay packet

When I first started that job as the support of wage scheme I was on three dollars seventy two an hour the other people were on Ten dollars an hour and then of course on the pay rise everything went up theirs went up by about five dollars, but mine ended up going up by about all the other guys who were

Employed under the scheme which was I think three or four of us our wage packet went up The equivalent of sixty cents or something like that Well, let me ask you did you agree

Yeah, fortunately, I agreed because there was nothing else Well, that's that's your agreement.

You have no right to complain because yeah, I know I wasn't trying to complain That's the sort of thing that exists

I wouldn't call that a form of slavery I would just call it How an economic system is established

Okay. Thank you. That's all you remember the this relates to it a little bit the

Conditioned feedback The particle the parable is where Their man has workers about my kids at 9 o 'clock in the morning another set another set

Yeah Hey, didn't you agree to this was the landowner he said didn't you agree?

Yeah. What's your what's your problem? I never forgot that it was it's true. You make an agreement that that's what you live with.

You don't have the right to complain You know good Yeah, okay.

All right. All right. Well, thank you Andrew. I'm gonna put you in backstage Just let me know if you have another question Matt.

Well before bring uh, oh I guess the person I was gonna bring up next is gone. But uh But we have a someone, you know

Sent me a text so Cameron is watching. Hey Cameron. Yeah, I think he's

I think maybe you might have a response to that to him Try and ignore Cameron So this is what he sent me a text it says

I guess I have the right Bible translation Holman Christian Standard Bible way better than the

NASB Yeah, that's because he's a heretic He's saying he's watching on his

Xbox so he can't comment like normal I Might agree with that.

He yeah, sometimes he may be a heretic. I don't know. All right, let's Let's Bring John in John did you have a question for us tonight?

You can unmute. Yeah You know, I was gonna actually make a couple of points

Concerning this topic because Usually in most cases when and you guys kind of touched up on this already but usually what happens is whenever you do have this topic of slavery most people will go back to ours the

American Civil War type of slavery that we That we're accustomed to basically

You know and you know, they think of roots they think of kutakinde and you know It's the same thing over and over I usually whenever like an atheist wants to bring this up when it comes to to slavery

The first thing I want to ask them is what's your stance on abortion? You know and that's the first thing

I want to find out because if you know They're gonna make an argument that you know, God is unjust with with punishing people with slavery

I Love to know what their stance is when it comes to you know, the tearing of children out of the womb

You know and and most the time they they had no problem with abortion They think it's a woman's right and I was like, well, then, you know, you're just as guilty you know, you can't you you can't point this out to to Christians saying that this is a

This is a proof that you know, God is an unjust person or you know

Unjust God, you know, it's it's silly. Anyways your thoughts I Agree with you.

Well, people are hypocritical, you know, don't have slavery. They misrepresent what slavery is in the Bible They condemn the whole

Bible because of a misrepresentation They haven't done their homework don't want to do their homework and then when you ask them difficult questions

They bow out because they don't want to be able to be pressed. They're inconsistent. This is the way of the unbeliever

So that's what it is All right Huh, I Think Ethan just said he he thinks yeah fix via that phone

Yeah, I'm gonna try to bring Ethan in and I see David Lang is watching on on Facebook David You should get in here

Ask some questions David Probably has some good questions. I'd like to see David and Matt, you know spar that would be fun

Yeah, see how his Krav Maga works up against David's jujitsu My theory yeah, that doesn't work.

By the way, Cameron says that Matt his wife agrees with you that he's a heretic. Yep Okay, Ethan you're in what let's see if we hear you now

No, we don't hear you you got to get a computer with a microphone

Did you did you give Ethan did you give up permission to use your mic maybe

I think sometimes with the phones you have to do Video and or the camera and the mic separately.

All right Metal minister says if his computer wasn't currently updating he'd be joining in you can use a phone

So that's that's an idea All right, well, we'll wait let me bring

Vincent in while Ethan tries to fix that Vincent You can you hear me? We can hear you sir, because I'm on a

PC with a mic Anyway, I don't know what verses y 'all have gone over on this subject so far, but the one

I always turn to Proverbs 22 7 The rich rule over the poor and the borrower is the slave to the lender

Usually when I bring that up to people days, you know, I mean you talk to people especially in America Well, I'm not a slave.

I've never been in slate Well, if you've ever owed anyone anything you actually are in a form of slavery to that person

Try not paying that back and see if it doesn't cause your life, you know hardship I mean people don't people do not relate it as As a form of slavery, but the

Bible straight does say that it's a you if you owe somebody something you're a slave to that person They just wanted to bring that up because I usually point that out to people because especially in America They just don't relate it to slavery at all.

That's right. Yeah, and I think it's interesting what David Lang says here David says

So it's because of the limits of the English language Slave English word has is one word where in Portuguese if there's four different words for slave

So that's an interesting thing that we end up seeing different languages have more

More words to refer to stuff and that that makes it a little bit clearer.

Sometimes what is being discussed? So, all right.

Let me see if there's any Vincent do you have any anything else? No, that's it.

I'm just enjoy listening. So, okay There's one one thing that I think is worth bringing up and it's an issue of slavery.

That is a little bit different Because you know slaves are to be set free, but there's a kind of slavery that isn't and Leviticus 25

I have this in the last article listed there It says as for your male and female slaves whom you have

You may acquire male and female slaves from pagan nations that are around you Then to it is out of the sons of the sojourners who live as aliens among you that you may gain

Acquisition and out of their families who are with you whom they will have produced in your land that they may become your possession

You may even bequeath them to your sons after you to receive as a possession

You can use them as permanent slaves But in respect to your countrymen the sons of Israel, you shall not rule

Rule over it with severity one another that was an interesting challenge To find out what was going on with that.

It's worth addressing here And as I say in that article there, first of all, the Old Testament is not established slavery.

It acknowledges it The issue of foreign -born slaves. Why would they be foreign -born?

Why would be have foreign slaves and why are they in perpetuity? Well, I started researching and I Came up with gonna fix it

Break, they're watching YouTube, but I'm not sure how to join Just go to Facebook and try it on Facebook and type in comments or did you put the

Streamyard Facebook a thing in Facebook if people go to yeah Because there's people saying that they have to be invited to video chat for faith.

This is a Facebook live, but it's not to join you have to go to Apologetics live comm so if anyone that wants to join go to apologetics live comm there's a link to stream yard and from there you can join us and so That so you can't you can't join through Facebook the way of normal Facebook live is because we're we're streaming right now through Twitter through YouTube and Facebook all at the same time

And so the way to join is to go to apologetics live comm and there's a link to join there

That is a stream yard link. So So Matt with that let me let me because it is an interesting thing when we talk about the

Gentiles with the slavery because And I didn't see if you address this and maybe addressed in some of the articles or ones you're working on But they're really challenging one in Leviticus and I think it's 25 if if you have a you have a jubilee year where someone is set free, but then after that there is a if they marry someone so someone goes and marries somebody and They're a slave they're

Jewish they get set free in the jubilee year, but if they go free They they basically have to divorce their wife.

I mean they leave their wife who's in slavery or they can choose to be they can choose to stay with their wife and be in you know, be a slave for life a

Choice that they make and there's some distinction there but the biggest part is what you mentioned the biggest distinction we folks see there is the distinction between what how

God has established that Israel would have Slaves of other Israelites versus Gentiles.

There is that distinction there? yeah, there is and I was trying to figure out what the distinction what the reason for the distinction was and I really didn't find much.

I started looking in commentaries, but didn't really find much Except we can very clearly say there's a distinction between the

Jewish people who are covenantally With God and the non -jewish people who are not covenantally involved with God.

So there's a differentiation there I don't know how to to expand on that but that would be worth, you know a study project but also

I started thinking about it, you know, a lot of times what we do is we fail to put flesh and blood on issues and What's it like flesh and blood wise we can sit in an armchair and talk about something

But go outside and try and dig that ditch and then come back and write about it instead of sitting in your desk first and Writing about it.

You'll have a different article. Well Let's put flesh and blood on this. Why were

Foreign people considered slaves under what conditions Mainly it was from war and a lot of times it was from an in debt

Because a foreigner could be indebted to people in Israel, but think about that. He's outside of Israel How is it that they would get inside of Israel physically in order to become a slave?

It doesn't make sense because if they're indebted outside of slavery, well, they should basically they'll stay away.

They don't come in So why are they brought in? It makes more sense to say that's because they're from pagan nations and dealing with wars and so though there are different ways of Unbelievers in pagan nations to enter into slavery the majority of it by far was through war through Conflict so think

I started putting flesh and blood on this and think about this. There's a couple of issues worth looking at for one

Excuse me What happens to a nation when they fight another nation? It's the men who go out and fight

Not the young boys that the young girls not the women Occasionally, there may be one or two here or there that do but no, it's the men who got in fight.

And so the losing country Basically had its male population pretty much wiped out

And if it was wiped out, well, not only that but the economy of that losing nation was wiped out

So there will be slaves there will be I mean there would be a famine there'd be plague

So what would happen was a lot of times the victorious nation would take the losing people take them as slaves in order to pay off the debt that the the victorious nation incurred in fighting the other nation particularly if the other nation started it and Then they end up losing.

Well now you got a debt to pay you guys started it now may or may not happen that way but this idea anyway, so They would become slaves.

They would bought the slaves because they most probably were slaves from capture of war Now if they're gonna be from the issue of capture of war

Then The it would the the perpetuity of it would not their ownership would not be because their souls and their bodies were

Considered property to be owned because they were still under I forgot the references. I don't have all this memorized yet Where the

Jews and the non -jews were told in Scripture to be treated equally Except for the issue of being released

There was a difference because I believe it's because the covenant faithfulness of God to the Jews He wanted him to stay covenantally on the land and that's one of the reasons he says for the

Jubilee because you could be in one part of Israel and Enslaved to move to another part of Israel to pay off a debt and then once you were free you were to go back to your original land because it was a covenant aspect of God's faithfulness to Israel and he actually says that so that they will be with their land that they would been given it was important to God that this happened, but there is no such case like that with the

Pagan nations because they didn't have any Israel land and the covenant aspect in that regard didn't apply to them

So that was that's one reason another reason I think was because if they were to be set free after say six years

Well, then they go back to their original country But what if they went back to the original country and a bunch of people did that and said let's start another war with Israel because we didn't like being slaves and so Whatever might the reason might be so it would be a form of stopping future wars by keeping them as perpetual slaves that's one part another possibility right there and Another Yet another possibility is that as I had mentioned earlier the debt that was incurred through war time

Was to be paid back to the individual families of Israel whose families themselves had gone out for war

Maybe have they'd lost somebody so these slaves were taken in as it means of replacement of the family members who might have produced for them, so there's that and also if Possibly you were to release the slaves of pagan nation slaves into Israel And so you can go and some of them went back to their own homeland

You then he had this this like I said earlier this issue of them rising up again and fighting

But what would happen with those slaves who said forget this I've learned the language. I've learned the cultural stay here

Well, the pagans were often very pagan and if they were allowed to flourish inside of Israel in their paganism

That could be an internal problem that has obviously and always been a problem within Israel's history

That they had turned to paganism in various forms of various ways And so if they were set free that would be more of a probability of occurring

In that sense so I look at this and I thought I wonder if those are some of the reasons that the slavery was perpetual in that sense ultimately come down to Protecting Israel not only different senses from a

Potential hostile regathering of other pagans to come in again and protecting Israel internally if the slaves

Freed slaves were to were to stay with their paganism that would then flourish and prosper inside of Israel They couldn't have that so the people would be required to stay in the households and were required to participate in the

Jewish Festivals and things like that and not in their paganism. So that I think was would be important to know ultimately since that Non intermingling would make sure so to speak that the people of Israel's Messiah would be allowed to Be born by in the future generations

Because if the paganism of Israel gets in and it destroys a messianic line, we wouldn't have

Savior, I hope all that made sense. This is the first time I've said all this Yeah, and that's consistent with what we see with all of the laws of Israel keeping them separate from the other nations this is a lot of people don't understand the kosher laws, but There were they were there to keep them separate from the other nations, you know one of the things

I think very interesting if you if we look at the you know the the verse that's used so often by the black

Hebrew Israelites is Deuteronomy 20 28 68 and the reason

I think that's so interesting as a verse is because this this verse actually Talks about a slavery that they put themselves into Now black you were like to try to say that because the word ship is there that this means this is the

African slave trade But it's either all figurative or all literal. It says and I will bring you back

It means ships to Egypt a journey. I promised you that you would never never again you'd never make again and There you shall offer your cells for sale to your enemy as male and female slaves but you will have no buyer and I think that's that's very interesting that You you end up seeing there is

You know the case where here you have them selling themselves as slaves

Even though they end up having no buyers and There is a

I think it was I want to say I I thought it might have been Isaiah 24.

I found a verse Recently, I'm gonna have to look it up again I was doing devotions and there was a passage that referred to the when the

Assyrians took over Egypt to That reference in Deuteronomy being that they were they sold them.

They went to Egypt to sell themselves as slaves I'm gonna bring in I'm gonna bring

Ethan in again. He's on a computer. We'll see how this works this time We hear you.

All right Okay, so Matt, um, can you explain your your view on free will and And just like what and why do you believe that and what verses you use

I know you're gonna say that it's because you read the Bible, but Can you give me like explain some verses that bring you that conclusion

Well, I like free will I think it's a good thing and the Bible teaches it. So what's the problem? Well, hold on I'm gonna challenge that Matt.

Does it does the Bible teach we have a free will or does it teach that we have an enslaved? Will well,

I was I was answering like that. I wanted him to get more specific questioning

I think we both we all agree that we have a will I'll challenge whether it's free. Okay, so So you

You don't believe that we have a libertarian free will. Oh, there you go. Now you're talking.

So why don't you find it? Please define libertarian free will just make sure we're on the same page.

That's all so libertarian free will is that That God That basically our will is separate from God in the way that He that he can know that we're

Some that we can know something that that we can do something contrary them to what he knows

We're gonna do basically That's impossible Yeah We can't do anything contrary to the knowledge and will of God Because the

Bible says he knows all things first John 3 20 and he works all things after the counsel of his will Ephesians 111 so that part doesn't exist

That you know that that definition of libertarianism can't work, right? Right, yes, okay, so libertarianism

Libertarian free will is the is the the idea that a person's human free will is not

Compatible with God's sovereignty and predestination So I call libertarianism non -compatibilism so Let's talk about what compatibilism is

Compatibilism is the idea that our free will choices are compatible with God's sovereignty election predestination a

Libertarian would say that's not the case libertarian is a non -compatibilist and So let's talk about what free will is so let me ask you a question, what's your first name

Ethan? Okay, Ethan Is your last name hunt? No Tanner.

Okay. I was one of them, you know, I was just watching some Mission Possible a little bit. I was just wondering

It was bad, all right, so does free will mean you have to have the ability to be able to Make a choice.

That's not forced Okay, just to just you freely choose it and you have to be able to accomplish what you choose to do

Would that be free will Yes, no put your hand in front of your face like this and look to your left and slap yourself

That can okay so free will can God choose to do evil

Um, no, so we can choose to do evil So our wills and God's wills are different in one respect but similar than another

When we say that we have free will what we basically mean is is this that we are free in? To be able to make a choice consistent with what we are

So this is what's really important God is God can only choose which consistent with his own nature as nature's holy

But he he cannot choose to do anything unholy he's restricted by his own nature

So too are we restricted by our nature as well? Would you agree? Yes, so can we choose to do something?

We can't even think of but we're not aware of no, we can't good So person can only choose to do something that he's aware of choosing to do.

Yes, okay So if we're not able to be aware of something we can't choose it

Yes, and that does not mean we don't have free will it just means We don't have that ability to choose something because we can't choose it.

It's not a restriction on our freedom It's just what's natural to our essence, right?

Okay. Yeah What is the um, hey Matt, let me just do this because we got someone that has has a question for you

And he only has about five minutes before he's got to go to work Okay, can we switch gears just for five minutes?

Sure real fast. All right I'm gonna bring David in so David go for it Let's go man

So in terms of real quick in terms of Krav Maga you would do better managing distance

But you better hope and pray to God that I don't get that single leg Get the what

I could understand a single single leg Yeah, I Am not tracking

I don't understand if he grabs a hold of your leg you're going you're going down on the ground he's saying Yeah, of course

But what for sure you look like an MMA fighter guy. I mean, that's what I was thinking Yeah, I'm a little older now.

But yeah for a bit too long. I had a lot of rough ice, but now I've got really

Okay Once you have kids and get a little bit more mature I guess that fire starts dying down and you start realizing, you know,

I don't really like getting hit in the face It's nice to be the hammer, but it's not not nice to be the male and you know

Right bucks isn't really worth it to step in there with another man that you know wants to kill you Yeah, I just took

Krav Maga so I have something to build to to use I mean obviously There's guys who are just bigger and faster and that's just what's going to happen

I might last half a second, but you never know, you know might get a good shot in at least

I have I have a fighting chance I Know there's a guy

I know there's a guy. I know you can bench 400 pounds 13 times for real and I could use all the trauma go.

I would only make a deal with him. I get the first five shots for free Okay, then we can make it discuss.

Yeah, I get that to be well -placed and you got to cooperate That'd be the only way so Here's the interesting thing

David is Matt actually Matt does not like watching mixed martial arts Chooses he chooses to take one of the most aggressive

Look at kung -fu sensu. I took that for a couple of years. It's a very Aggressive style of fighting also,

I believe he's getting it done If I if I ever have to fight anybody I'm gonna go for a throat punch or a solar plex punch or I'm gonna break a collarbone get it done

I don't want to fight anybody cuz I'll get my my rear handed to me or I have a black belt in run foo

You know, I'll just run. I Had been

Kind of talking about with Andrew for probably a couple months now and I've seen this new

Disturbing trend kind of being a little bit of a phone of Jewish and becoming

Christian and the disturbing trend I've been seeing and I've spoke to Andrew about it a bunch of times is kind of an old thing, but it's made a resurgence of Christian and I call them that they're not

Christian. I don't care anybody does But these supposed Christians Saying although those are

Paul's words, so it's really, you know kind of cherry -picking Scripture and people kind of taking the stance.

Well, you know that women preaching, you know that it goes along with that whole thing Where all of that that was

Paul's words and I followed Jesus's words It's one of those things where I really find myself with a complete lack of Patience and kindness and the ability to try to explain

It's like somebody's trying to debate geometry with you, but they don't understand the concept of addition right

What do you What do you how do you? recommend

I Don't want to say combating but yeah kind of combating this and kind of sure.

It's easy Acts 9 15 remember Acts 9 15 Okay, so in Acts 9

Paul gets his rear handed to him, right? knocked off his horse Jesus appears who you first get and And I said they're talking a whole bit.

Anyway But the Lord said to him go for he Paul is a chosen instrument of mine

To bear my name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel I like that.

That's fire. Okay. So when people say well, that's just Paul's words. There's two ways to attack tackle it What do I go? Well Romans Acts 9 15 said

Jesus had Paul's and a chosen Chosen instrument of Jesus.

Are you saying Jesus was wrong? Okay, so it's right upon Christ is one who called him

Christ did this right? Okay, so that's another thing now You can argue with that from different directions

Obviously you could just harp on him, but that's what Jesus said. Jesus said this these are his words are in red he's a chosen instrument of mine, so Jesus specifically called the murderer

Saul and Brought him into the faith granted that he believed because it wasn't

Paul's free will at this point So it was but I'm using very very loosely.

He wasn't out there going. Hey, I'm gonna go and follow Jesus No, he got knocked off his horse in a sense

All the circumstances forced him to believe that what are you gonna do there it is right and then

He's a chosen instrument of Jesus. So that means and to do what to bear my name before the

Gentiles Right and the Kings and the sons of Israel.

So he specifically sent to the Gentiles So Paul is the apostle to the

Gentiles Peter's the apostle to the Jews. So if he's a possible the Gentiles Ephesians Colossians Galatians these are epistles to the

Gentiles. Yes, there were Christians. I mean Jews scattered amongst them and within them So there you go

Second thing I'll do is I'll say are you saying to me then that that basically what Paul was saying is it's his opinion

It's oh Paul's opinion right about these things. You really shouldn't follow Paul because it's just this kind of opinion, right?

That's what it comes down to and so let me ask you you disagree with Paul For example women pastors and elders all that stuff and I'll say because they'll say

I've had him say to me Well, that's just Paul's opinion. I go. Okay so in 1st

Timothy 3 15 Paul says he's giving instruction on how to handle the people to behave in the household of God So he is giving instruction to the household of God now

That's just his opinion. I ask him Does that mean your opinion is just as good as Paul the

Apostle? Because if you get disagree with Paul That means your opinion is on the same level as Paul and you have the right to say what

Paul was wrong about that And then if I was in the room with them talking I take a step backwards Well, I'm saying that one step see and if you're gonna say that, you know that you're in the same level as Paul Take another step backwards.

They might go. What are you doing? Well, I don't want to be near you when the bolt of lightning hits you I'm distancing myself.

Okay, and so You know, so this is a kind of logic I'll use because it's stupidity it is to pity

Yeah, I'm gonna you know, David. I know you got to go because you get a little bit. I'm gonna

I'm gonna The rap report this next this weekend is gonna cover red -letter

Christianity There's a couple ways, you know, I mean You can look at what second

Peter 3 1516 say they're they end up saying that, you know, Peter says that what

Paul says is scripture And really the reason they don't like Paul and it's really

Paul. They don't like only because of one thing He says things they don't like that women can't be pastors or preachers and that homosexuality is wrong

Well, there's other places where it says both of those things so it's not just Paul and The if you look at the they argue the well

Paul in first Timothy says he it's they make sound like this is not the Lord, this is

I Well, that's not the way he says it in 1st Corinthians 14 where he's quite clear. This is a commandment for all churches

Well, then that's a command for all churches that women are to be silent. So You know, so really what the issue the heart of the issue is do they believe in inspiration do they believe that the

Red letters are the same as the black letters. I mean I can make my whole Bible red letter then right does that make it?

But the reality what they're really saying is somehow by the words of Jesus it counts more

However, how do they know those words Jesus said did it come from Jesus? No, because he didn't write the

Bible it came from Matthew Mark Luke and John So you have to take the words of those men?

So then now the question is why do you put those men and what they wrote? Above what and only parts of what they wrote above what

Paul wrote and the real issue is it's all inspired by God That's a real challenge there.

And so what they're really doing is questioning the Inspiration and infallibility of scripture.

That's really what they end up question So, thank you guys. I appreciate it.

Have a good night All right, well, thanks for coming in good. See you and we'll try to get you and Matt, you know on the mats

Yeah, I'm too old. I'm almost 63 and I got a bad There man, his guns are bigger than all your guns that you got in your house, right?

I just need to be You got the the ak -47, but you know,

I'll take they look at they look at his compared to yours, man All right

All right, so back to our discussion here Ethan, sorry about that Thank you for doing that just because I knew he sent a message saying hey

I only got like eight minutes before I get to get to work. So yeah continue All right, so we have to be able to act in a manner consistent with our nature

Right. Now, what does the Bible say about the nature of the unbeliever? It's It's sinful

Yep, and it's a slave of sin Romans 6 14 through 20 cannot receive or understand spiritual things 1st

Corinthians 2 14 He is by nature a child of damnation Ephesians 2 3 his righteous deeds are filthy rags

Isaiah 64 6 does not seek for God doesn't do any good Romans 3 10 11 and 12 now

So I'm gonna just step aside here and show you something. I could get my cat and does my cat have free will um,

I Mean I Guess What do you mean in what sense is it freely able to make choices that are not forced and can do what it wants

Yes, yeah and So my cat has free will this is why definitions are so important When someone defines something in one way to lean towards their presupposition

That's that's interesting what I like to do is define free will by God's nature He's a standard not man.

So God's nature is holy. He cannot choose to sin, but he still has freedom So he's restricted by his nature

Just as we are restricted by our nature as you admitted No one can can choose to do something that not even aware of Kevin conceive of my cat cannot conceive of the idea of Doing the square root of nine

It's not capable But then the in cap incapacity of that does not mean my cat doesn't have the free will to choose to do whatever it wants to do

Now when we talk about free will to go wait a minute cats don't have free will in the same sense a human does Depends on how we're defining free will

So what I'm trying to illustrate is my cat has cat free will katamatics as Andrews somebody's thing in there and So I have two cats right and One of them is super affectionate almost demands

Affection literally just if you could speak English peppy peppy peppy. That's that's that's him.

All right, and so he's certainly free To have me pet him my wife pet him go sleep on the couch go sleep on the floor, whatever

I'm not forcing him to So he has free will doesn't he? Yeah, he does

God has free will but even God cannot sin. He cannot choose to sin

Okay, an unbeliever has free will he can't choose to do that, which is good

Now when we talk about this people go, wait a minute. No. No, he drops his wallet and An unbeliever gives a wallet back as a good thing

No, it's not What's a good work see and if in an atheist worldview a

Wallet gets dropped and an atheist gives it back. That's a good work. They say well an atheist worldview

There is no such thing as good and bad except there's just subjectivity of what is good and bad and it's valueless

It's kind of arbitrary. Is it ontologically good? Is there something by nature that which is good and Something that made nature that is that is bad so goodness must be that it is based in the nature of God himself and Consistent with the revelation in the

Word of God So an unbeliever can do no good because he can never do work.

That is there by for the purpose of glorifying God and For the standard of being bought in Christ.

Otherwise, it's ultimately selfish for his own glory So he can do no good work so we get into the definitions of good when it says he can do no good

So let's just talk about this the unbeliever then what I was quoting the addresses

Can do no good doesn't seek for God cannot receive or understand these things as by his deadness sins by nature child of wrath and Slave of sin and his heart is desperately wicked deceitful.

It cannot be trusted So is he free? No Sure, he's free.

He is free to act in a manner consistent with what he is Okay, he's gonna freely choose to do that which is in rebellion against God.

No one's forcing him Right. Yes So an atheist who is a hater of God does no good

Doesn't seek for God is by nature child of wrath and damnation is certainly free to continue to hate

God and deny him No one's forcing him to he has free will so the idea of free will must be

Understood that we are only as free as our nature permits us to be free

My cat can't do mathematics Can't do square roots and exponents and God cannot sin an

End believer cannot freely choose God, but he has free will so libertarianism

Says Man's free will is not compatible with God's sovereign grace What that implies is that in order for for a free will to exist?

It must be independent of God that is

Heresy that should be written on toilet paper and used in the bathroom and flushed on the toilet

To say that man's freedom is not compatible with the sovereignty of God is ludicrous childish idiocy

Because God who works all things after the council of his will I'll ask the libertarians he works all things, right?

Yes, all things after the council of his will right? Does your free will choice included in that? Yes, then you can't be libertarian can you

Arguments over. Yeah, it's just it's ridiculous. So Compatibilism, let's let's look at some verses on compatibilism a little bit if you want

You probably get a lot more than you ask for you probably sing yourself When can I get away from this? When can I get out? I'm done.

I can't get Okay, so here's what I can put the text in the text on the chat room for their feedback

Therefore Jesus answered and said to them Truly truly I say to you the Son can do nothing of himself

Unless it is something he sees a father Hey, let me know what's going on with the right here I'm gonna meet myself

Notice it's that you were really bad Ethan you say some stuff

It's distorted I hear everything distorted And Andrew Graham says

Andrew you're distorting. Okay, it's fixed now. Yeah, it's fixed. I'm okay All right.

So if you look at the text, we'll keep going Jesus says truly truly the

Son of Man the Son could do nothing of himself Unless it is something he sees a father doing

Whatever the father does these things a son also doesn't like matter. Would you say Jesus had free will? Yes, but he can only do what he sees a father do well he has

Free will in the sense that it's not libertarian. It's compatible. Oh, you are a smart guy.

You are you're doing so well I'm so happy that you have freely seen the logic and the truth of this

Look in the text again. I put another verse there Jesus says I can do nothing of my own initiative as I hear

I judge and my judgment is just Because I do not seek my own will but the will of him who sent me I can do nothing of my own initiative

Does Jesus have free will? Yes That's compatibilism right there. God's sovereignty over the person work of Christ Yeah Yeah, the reason why

I was asking is as I talked to Andrew on email a little while back about my brother.

That's and He's in a cult kind of yeah, we could call it a cult

Originally he what I was talking to him and so originally he he was basically he got in touch he got connected with this one guy and Basically, he convinced him to go off completely off his

ADHD medicine that he has been on since he was four That's he the doctor said he could have died by just going off this medicine cold turkey and then

Then they convinced him to go into this Sleep pattern where he's only getting four to five hours of sleep a night and then staying up for in New York second shift

So this is horrible. And then right after that They did this

Sozo Bethel Sozo memory recovery therapy on him. Oh Wow, I want to hear about that.

I've started my study on them and stuff. Yeah, so Basically, they implanted memories into his head that he did all these things to his sister and You know

Matt this almost sounds like you remember when we dealt with the cult of wells or the church of wells But we call it the cult of wells, you know

What they would do is keep people sleep deprived so that they can yeah, you know easily, you know interject thoughts and brainwashing

You know, I have Get an interview, there's a lady who moved out to Pennsylvania from California.

She actually worked for For Bill Johnson there Bethel. She volunteered for him

And she talked to her. Well, we don't have a lot of time to talk to her because she's dying she has breast cancer and it was completely treatable completely and She listened to Bill Johnson decided to get off of her off the the cancer treatment and just pray and have faith and So now that the cancer is spread throughout her body and now she is basically dying

She came to move in with her parents so she could basically pass away and she supposedly said to Bill like what's going on here?

Like, you know, I'm being faithful and he just said I don't know like You know and here people are dying and these guys are just they don't care it's just about making their money and stuff

I Would like to talk to her. I'm sorry that she's oh, yeah I'm gonna try to see if I could set something up and and you know, try to get it, you know videoed so that at least

You know She can get her message out there Yeah, I'd love to be able to talk to her and get the audio or whatever it is because I'm starting the research on NAR now

Yeah, it's bad news Let me just say this Ethan I think

I you know I've told you this but for folks who are watching, you know The issue is when you're on these mood altering drugs the drugs for a

ADHD things like that especially for people who've been on them for I mean some people 30 40 years and they just they want to get not feel that dependency on medication

That's fine, but you there are certain drugs that you cannot just stop cold turkey Dangerous and it's it's dangerous when pastors tell people that oh, you should just be off medication

You know, if you're not a doctor, don't be telling them that I mean you could you there is a way to get off of Those things you have to do it gradually.

You can't just do cold turkey and And that's the dangerous thing and some of these groups. They talk about Well, you got to live by faith.

They make it as if you're lacking faith by by Doing things trusting medicine anything like that and the reality is they end up putting people in dangerous positions.

Yeah, they do. Okay How's your brother now lack of sleep He's it's been about two years now that he's been doing this he

He's He's struggling with his job. He works at Bosch and On an assembly line, so it's very hard to because he has he the doctor said it's one of the worst

Cases of ADHD that they've seen in bipolar. He's bipolar also is says one of the worst cases they've ever seen and So he's very struggling but and just recently he was going on 20 hours a day of Going 20 hours straight of not sleeping every day and then driving to work

He's we believe he's gotten in a couple different He's hit a couple different things by in this by we can tell by his car, but he denies hitting

Things but he is dense in the front bumper. So it's it's very weird.

I also wanted to ask so my church right now is Going through a little change

I've talked to my Worship pastor at my church about Bethel and Hillsong because we play

Bethel and Hillsong songs in our church And I've talked to them about it.

Yeah, and I and so it's kind of in the state of just the elders are

But so I don't I don't I don't really know it's

I've I've gone to I've talked with different elders about it and It's but and they my pastor.

It's it was a rough situation. You just got He resigned because he got caught plagiarizing extensively for about 20 years and so there it's

Our church is like broke very broke. Well, I'm plagiarizing you what sermons. Yes I've heard of others doing that.

Oh, yeah, all you got to do is just go to church Just say you're in a sermon and I got this from so it's a bit and you go on. What's the big deal?

No, they would some of these guys do Matt and I know and there's their services people actually pay for sermons

But I had someone that contacted me his he is a fellow pastor. He said hey, listen, what do

I do? My brother is in a church where the guy that their pastor had never been out of the state ever

He ended up finding out that this pastor was reading MacArthur sermons and when I say reading him

He literally even gave an illustration that MacArthur had in his sermon from growing up near Philly And and the guy who's never been out of out of the state he's in Reads this and and that's what triggered this guy's brother because he was like, wait a minute

You've never been out of state you didn't grow up by Philly And so he started to realize this is someone else's sermons and week after week

He kept searching and realized that verbatim This guy was reading MacArthur sermons every week this verse after you know chapter

By chapter verse by verse and so he could he actually started printing the the commentaries or the sermon notes

From the next text and he'd read along with the pastor

MacArthur sermon, that's And I'm just like, you know, you got to confront that I mean, it's it's good that they they confronted in your in your case

Ethan and that he plagiarized sermons my own Who's gonna say you plagiarize you plagiarize images from from That's right

I did you stole you you plagiarized for me when you said, you know demons of a feather flock together

You be careful I'm gonna take a step back from you when you start talking like that Okay, he said it first I just put it online before he could get

Well, I've been sitting over the years on radio so Nathan is that help I mean, you know, sorry about your brother man

He's in a cult. It sounds like some wacko thing but Are you there?

Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, and so you got this additional church thing going with the pastor or with them using

Bethel music Mm -hmm Yeah, I'll be having to deal with this and because of this one of the things

I'm going to be doing is Developing a section where I actually analyze

Song lyrics and I'll just be making brief commentary Reproducing them and say this is from here

Give the quotes. This is what it is I do is the way to block quotes and put a citation in it and inside of HTML It's all you know, and then make commentary on these things

But I love to be honest, I love Bethel music it's wonderful it's beautiful The problem is it comes out of a heretical source a lot of times.

I can't trust it Yeah, so I can't recommend it and I wouldn't recommend it. Let me ask this

Ethan Do your pastors see that Bethel and Hillsong are heretical? Yes, they do

They so so the issue is they realize that source is bad Mm -hmm.

Okay, then that's gonna play into what Matt was saying because this is the way you have to explain it there and you know the way Matt's going about it is say

You know the lyrics because some of their lyrics are heretical, but some are not bad but the problem is is that and this is what

Justin Peters always says Even if they sing a couple good songs and you sing those in church What happens is they are very clear that they use the music as a gateway into their cult

Yep, right so that they're very clear about that Therefore you definitely shouldn't be playing it because they know they do just enough solid songs to get those in Churches to be played and people go.

Oh, this is really nice. Let me go check out other songs by Hillsong And then they check those out and start following Hillsong and before you know it, you know, you're they're gone

So that's the danger with it. If it was it's a gateway music.

It's gateway music. Yeah Yeah, I mean if they weren't so open about the fact that they use it as a gateway drug into their cult

Right, then it might be sound different, but they're really clear about that This is the way they try to pull people in and therefore no

You should never play that even if the songs are good because that's what they want.

I mean, that's why they do solid songs Right to pull so they could be sung in solid churches

Yeah, I mean that's yeah, that's what I'd say with it. Matt. Yeah, I have a few in fact the church

I go to they were playing a lot of that music and people were leaving over it and Anyway, so they're stopping that it gets deeper and the conversation gets deeper, but All right.

Well, we got we got a couple minutes left Ethan I don't know if you have anything more but I know that there's someone next to you

Coming in here. So, all right. Hey come come back if we can continue dialoguing and continue with this

Next week or not next week next week's Thanksgiving, so we won't have a show. So eat turkey next week

All right. Let me bring in that we Matt. I don't know you might be upset. Let's bring them in.

This is a couple Matt You ready for this? Here we go

You guys can unmute yourself Oh No How you guys doing

And these are friends of mine, you know Um, wait, man, you got to see his t -shirt. We got to get a close -up of his t -shirt say

Okay Where's it, uh, you hold it it's it's trump with 2020 in his sunglasses

Matt voted for trump. Oh, yeah I'm gonna get myself in trouble.

So cameron Melody had a question on calvinism Believe it

Oh, well cameron's still working on me. I grew up in an armenian home and even my own mother has talked even with matt and he's

Um told her a lot and she had a hard time, but it was fun. No I would

I took it easy, too Yeah, i've been somewhere in between but there's one specific point.

I just Can't wrap my head around. Okay Jeffrey epstein didn't kill himself.

I don't understand You know, that's brilliant melody because I was planning

I was actually thinking somehow tonight I wanted to get that in and you I see. Okay. Wait, we're gonna bring we're gonna bring john in because john redo what you were just doing uh

That was it, huh? So jeff jeffrey didn't kill himself. That's that's what's holding her back

Okay, I thought it'd be something really good here but uh, oh well You know, I met your uh, mom and dad in the store a couple weeks ago

Yeah Were you talking calvinism? No, I was just walking. I was just doing shopping and um, and you know, they

I saw them You know, it took me a second to put you know, two and two together but oh hey and uh, they were really sweet and um,

Then uh, we just I just they said and people shouldn't say this. How's things going? You don't want to know

Because I got quite the story and uh, but anyway, we ended up praying right by the produce section there in uh in walmart

And that was really nice. They were they were nice. They were they were great and And then they uh, they sent us a nice little gift afterwards.

I gotta say thanks to them Yeah Yeah Did they believe that jeffrey epstein killed himself?

Yeah No, they do not But hey cameron, uh, nathan, he's actually dead

Matt likes conspiracies matt probably thinks that he's still alive somewhere Yeah, so as I was saying, um, jeez

Uh nathan or I could do a gun cleaning, uh day pretty soon if you want to join us if you're able to do that During the day Oh, okay.

Yeah, I could show you how to clean your gun. Yeah, I need to well this guy, you know, he oh, hey he and nathan they know everything and uh, they just they kind of put up with me my uh,

Severe ignorance, but they know a lot of stuff and um, then they help me out. They teach me. Okay What was freaky was

I I called nathan up And literally just did this And he goes he was like I was just doing it really quick and he goes you got a glock

I was like because it does sound like a glock. It does sound like a glock just just from this He was like, oh you got a glock

That's that's nathan So we're gonna think we're doing that we're also thinking about going fishing and going up to the uh

Boise river by the dam up there and do some fishing in a week or two also Did you uh, did you try out that pond that I texted you about?

That's it's um Not closer to my house by the fish by the fish hatchery

Yeah, i've been there before probably 10 years ago. I have I found a fishing pole in there

There was an actual fishing pole off the pier like 12 feet down in the water and I used my fishing equipment

And I I got it and I hooked it and brought it brought it up Most people try to go fishing for fish. Matt goes fishing for other people's poles that they drop.

That's right There it was Next thing, you know, he's gonna pull up jeffrey epstein's body

Yeah, yeah, and uh, actually, uh, cameron's got a totally cool jeep um

It's an old what? What what year is it? It's a 1942 combat rebuild from two different army jeeps

Oh, I gotta come see that next time i'll be in your area. Yeah, and we went up to Yeah, when we went up to see the the eclipse, uh

A year or two ago. Um, I got to drive it around. It was fun. It was a lot of fun Yeah, so melody you guys watch this each each, uh thursday night or you're just just tonight you're just gonna whatever

I didn't know i'm the one that's on facebook. So I see a lot more of the facebook

Um just presentations and he'll sometimes watch the youtube so he kind of introduced me to this tonight

So yeah, perhaps we can join on thursdays. Yeah, I usually List anything live.

I always listen to the podcast. I don't usually watch live Yeah me either

Matt doesn't have time to watch anything So let's just get that out of the way

Did you watch at the beginning with the calvinist or not save song No, no, i'm gonna have to send this to you.

Oh, yes Yeah, we We'll just have to send that to you.

You'll need that one Because it'd be fun to watch you cringe All right, i'll have to i'll have to watch it.

Um But there's another guy I was thinking I want to try to invite on here. It's actually melody's cousin

And i've been talking to him. He's an atheist and you know I bring up a lot of stuff that I learned from you guys like on apologetics live and stuff and he was telling me about how uh

When I asked him well, how do you how we how can you have uh Morality and christianity either.

It's you he's saying that that Christianity's morality has the same problem as atheism because I was saying well, you can't base yours in anything

And he's like, oh, yeah. No, I totally understand it. I'm thinking about writing a book on it And so i'm like, oh, well, then maybe

I should bring you on here and you can talk to matt about it Yeah, but i've asked some of the uh

Questions that he posed to me Sure That'd be interesting

I do that. Yeah You can read my uh, my novella atheistica and my my book.

Um apologetics and atheism And you go to the atheism section Of what's on your site apparently.

Oh good Uh, he read a lot of karm while he was still He said when he was still a christian and then now that he's an atheist.

He doesn't think your arguments are very good Well, maybe he can help me improve them, um, that would be great see that's how i'm

That's how i'm hoping to invite him on I was like well if you're gonna write a book You could help improve your arguments by coming on to apologetics live.

Yeah yeah, and But does he live locally? No, where's he live?

Uh last I know arizona, but yeah, where the rest of my family is in a cult and they don't

Oh, yeah. Well, we'll be down there Interesting. Oh, yeah.

Hey, arizona Yeah, we should get down there But we'll see what happens

But i'll tell you everybody's even cameron and people are coming in and helping us pack up to move and everything

I couldn't I couldn't tell if it was because they loved us or wanted to see me leave I think it's the latter

It has to be the latter yeah, we actually had one of the we there was one time where we're

You know cameron was on on video quite a bit as he was packing things up and he he'd come right next to you with the mass with the tape just You know

He did the beautiful part I should find out what episode that was we should go back and watch that because the funniest thing was cameron's sitting there and You see him in the background with the tape further away from matt

So he just moves right next to matt to pull the tape and matt's just trying to concentrate talk and not realizing

Cameron was doing this on purpose Yeah, my friends are

Is that over there I know what's wrong with my friends, but see the problem is anybody would be my friend

There's something wrong with them for that so I can understand why cameron would act like that Yeah, that's well.

That was also the same episode. I was texting andrew and asking if he wanted one of matt's cats

And and his books you're giving you're offering me his books and everything yeah, a lot of people want my books you know

You've already given too many of them away so I already gave i've gave given away hundreds of books already.

I still have hundreds I just finished the sci -fi novel too. I gotta get that one last edit find someone to do that and then we'll go for it

So so matt What's that? Melody what sorry? Your other one right now the influence.

Oh, you're reading that Mm -hmm. You like it? Yeah, it's first it was creeping me out.

I'm like, are you sure you want me to read I can't I don't know if I should read this right now just that you know, the demonic forces, but no, it's really interesting.

I'm still What part are you at? What um,

I think i'm just within the first quarter still okay Still double checking in the garden.

No, it's still early still early. Okay. Well it gets Scary it gets darker.

Yeah, it does it gets darker Yeah, um, uh diane selner she used to work with us and there's a scene in the book later on i'll give anything away but um

It's where kathy the main figure Uh, the other the wife, you know the main character's wife is going through a house by herself

And a demon is sent to terrorize her And so she's in the dark by herself and uh, so, uh diane selner i'm not getting into too much detail, but stuff like like She's watching tv and feeling coldness on her and it's in front of her and as she's exhaling it's inhaling and as she's inhaling

It's exhaling and it's whispering things into her mind and stuff like this and she's getting terrified And she's walking through the house.

It's creepy. I've had women tell me they couldn't finish it She's walking through the house and with a knife in the story and so diane was

Reading that part of the book by herself in the dark in her house alone

Just a light on and she's totally engrossed in that section and a book on the shelf right next to her just fell

She said she about jumped Just she was screaming. She just jumped out of her skin and and uh,

I got a big kick out of that So that's one of my favorite stories That's a great scary. It does what's that?

Great? You just great way to end the show bring us on down Yeah, it'd be uh, it'd be an r -rated movie if uh, if it was made into a movie

So, so that's the the It's available on amazon Yeah, and I gotta um,

I gotta uh I could look in the second one too. Yeah melanie.

Go ahead Yeah, um, sorry. I didn't want to interrupt. Um, why did you give your character only a knife when you could have given her an ar

Or We already established this that he's he's naive on the guns right

I wrote it before I started carrying so, you know, it's like five or six years old

She should have been packing an ar in the hospital. I actually I prefer an ak over an ar hold on reliable No More knockdown.

Listen, I live in I live in new jersey. What exactly is an ar and ak?

I I don't understand these things Yeah Yeah Cameron may not even have heard the story.

Do you you hear the story the first time that that I went shooting with nathan Okay, so this would be a way of ending all this personal stuff, right

So matt nathan and I go shooting where there's another guy with us who had never shot. So nathan wanted to work with him

He he looks at me and says have you ever shot and at that point I was like, yeah, like 25 30 years ago So he's like, oh, okay

So we go shooting and he's watching me for a bit And so after I get done, he looks at me and goes, okay

Were you military or police? He's like i'm like what do you mean he's like i'm watching you shoot you're trained which is it

I was like military we pull that we pull the thing in and i'm upset because i'm no longer it wouldn't be marksman there were like six out of 18 that were just outside of the

The bullseye and i'm like i'm sitting there upset. He goes. Are you kidding me? I shoot every day. I would like to shoot like that You know, he was he couldn't believe that after like 30 years of not touching a weapon.

I was still i was still shooting decently so Not with a handgun though my wife.

However I I sent this to matt cameron. I'll have to send you the picture my wife. I took her out and first time doing a nine millimeter

And I mean we took her to a training and so the guy is sitting there with her and I mean she takes first shot perfect bullseye second shot

Just like inches away from it. He's like look he's like his eyes are getting big as he looks at me like Wow, he like turns me.

He's like she's good like She does about you know 20 rounds and like almost everyone is a bullseye

We're just like wow, this is good i'm like i'm not going to be shooting with you with a handgun

I'll take i'll take the ar and compare it to her handgun So I want to get a 43 glock 43 x

Yeah, that'd be nice. I got I just got the 19x and I got a 19, but I want to 43 x have that be my carry

Yeah, well we're gonna end up close now and uh after talking about you know, jeffrey ebstein, um

We'll have to wait to see if matt if we're gonna get matt's view of what actually happened to jeffrey So you do not have a show next week folks because it's some

Something in america here. What are we doing? Uh, we should ask andrew what's

Asking andrew will bring you in from down under see if you know what holiday he's probably not even there his camera's off What what holiday is coming up this thursday?

thanksgiving Oh, there you go. See see everyone knows american holidays Even down Huh You could always have a thing called a turducken on thanksgiving

Yeah, well i'm not gonna have a turduck actually I do have a turducken so but uh, but yeah, so so we'll have

Okay, so matt dropped out i'm gonna drop you guys out and we'll end out the show Um, so no no show next week.

So please do not show up thinking that there's going to be a show um, I I do want to give a quick shout out for those who are

Uh, if you're listening or watching somewhat live, um before thanksgiving we are still have some uh,

For those who want to go to israel in 2021 We do have still giving away till the end of november

Uh, there's some dvds and books that are being offered to those who get their down payment in before The end of november so make sure to do that if you want to join with us and Um, so that is go to 2021 israeltrip .com

2021 israeltrip .com There are different prices depending if you're leaving from new york or elsewhere

We just had some folks from ireland who signed up so they'll be meeting us in tel aviv You can do that and if you're crafty with finding good prices for flights, maybe you could save money, uh, even out of new york so uh with that Uh, I didn't because we had some technical issues early on I didn't even introduce us

At the at the beginning of this one, but uh matt slick is with karm .org. I'm with striving for eternity

I'm the host andrew rapaport And I do want to encourage you to check out all of the podcasts on the christian podcast community

This is one of I think 15 currently, but we have several podcasts go check out them out

Go to christianpodcastcommunity .org. We have a new website there. I should say that if you are not getting apologetics live

You may have to unsubscribe and resubscribe. We had a little glitch as we moved to the new website

And so some people got caught in that glitch and what you just have to do is unsubscribe

Resubscribe and you should be set. So with that we'll catch you next time