January 2, 2024 Show with Braden Patterson on “From Works Righteousness & Striving to Become a God to Saved By Grace Alone by the One True God”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

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George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

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Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

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Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have a view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

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Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this very first live

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Iron Sharpens Iron Radio episode of 2024. That's January 2nd, 2024, and I'm thrilled to have a first -time guest in the program today who has a fascinating testimony to tell us.

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He's also one of the upcoming speakers at the Open Air Theology Conference in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

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This February, we'll be giving you more details about that as well. I'm speaking of Braden Patterson, who's pastor of Valley Baptist Church, a

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Reformed Baptist congregation in Hagerman, Idaho. He is a seminary student at Reformed Baptist Seminary, an open -air evangelist, a tobacco pipe maker with Donor Oak Company, and he's also a husband and father of three.

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Today, he's going to be addressing the theme, From Works Righteousness and Striving to Become a

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God to Saved by Grace Alone by the One True God, one pastor's story of his conversion out of Mormonism and salvation in the one true

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Jesus Christ. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time ever to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Pastor Braden Patterson.

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Brother Chris, it's such a blessing to be a part of this show today. I'm truly thankful to God and the way that he has been glorified in the advancement of his kingdom through this ministry that you perform with Iron Sharpening Iron.

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It's a true blessing to be here today. Amen. And why don't you tell our listeners, first and foremost, about the fine congregation where you pastor,

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Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho. And I don't know if I'm mispronouncing it.

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Is it Hagerman or Hagerman? Hagerman. Yes, sir. Yeah, it's a it's a small, wonderful Baptist church.

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I've been pastoring here now for a little just a little while, and it's been a blessing just to preach

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Christ crucified every single week, trying to just refine and reform God's church here at his bride here in Hagerman, Idaho, the southern

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Idaho church congregation just to become more and more biblical and more and more seeking, desiring and exalting

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Christ. It's been it's been truly a blessing to be here. Praise God.

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And tell us a little bit more about the church. I know that I've already mentioned that you were a Reformed Baptist.

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Is it a confessional church? Or I know that some Reformed Baptist churches aren't officially confessional.

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Tell us about your congregation. Yeah, that is a great question. And so I'm hoping to move more and more towards the 1689 as a church right now.

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We are currently going through the beginning steps of a Bible study. In fact, I really appreciated your recent show with Mark Chansky and just hearing him with the

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Reformed Baptist Network. That is one of the things that we are currently considering. We have we were a part of the

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SBC. However, we were one of the churches that left just because of their lacking of firm stances on the things that are very clear in God's word.

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And so we we decided to leave that convention to seek something else out.

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And that is the state that we're in right now. The pastor before myself was also trying to do a very similar work here.

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And so just through weekly preaching of God's word, we've been coming becoming more and more confessional as time has come.

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So in our documents, as one would expect, we do have the Baptist faith and message of Hopefully, though, one day it will have the language of 1689 in it.

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But since pastoring here, I've I've helped disciples just through the mercy of God.

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Another elder here, a co -elder with me here at Valley Baptist. His name's Rick. And he and I are both very firm holders of the 1689.

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And so just just through God's providence and through the care of the local bride, we are hoping to to lead more and more confessional as time comes.

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But, yeah, our weekly church service is that the Lord's Day Sunday at 11 a .m.

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in the morning. And if anybody's in this area, southern Idaho, and it's looking, like you said, for for a solid church,

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I would definitely invite them to come and check us out. It would be a blessing to fellowship and to worship our triune

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God with one another. And if anybody wants more details about this fine church,

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Hagerman Valley Baptist Church, go to Hagerman Valley Baptist dot org.

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Hagerman Valley Baptist dot org. And you can find out all the details that you need.

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And just out of curiosity, I think I've read two different names.

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Is it Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman or Hagerman Valley Baptist Church? That is a great question.

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So right now. So our name is technically Valley Baptist Church. Just in the in the midst of different decisions that were made, there are different names proposed that were being put online.

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A sure way to figure out where we would be at is to look us up on Facebook. And that would be Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

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And then, of course, you should see several sermons from myself in there.

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And maybe that would be a good resource for you to go and hear what a typical Sunday would sound like. Right now, we're preaching through the

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Book of Job. This last Sunday, we did a topical message on communion. And this upcoming Sunday, we are doing a baptism here in our church.

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And so we're doing another topical message on baptism itself, just as the sign of the new covenant, being a reformed

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Baptist church and looking at things very covenantally. But, yeah, that would probably be the best way to find a little bit more out about our churches through our

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Facebook page. Praise God. Well, as the theme that we already announced is indicating, you were, for a period of time in your life, a member of the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints, also known as the Mormons. And there are very important reasons why evangelicals have regarded that organization as a cult.

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It is, in many ways, a religion that is more 180 degrees opposite to genuine biblical

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Christianity than any other religion, especially any other religion, using the name of Jesus Christ falsely.

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And tell us about how you became a

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Mormon. Was that the religion of your upbringing, or did you discover this religion later on in your life?

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Tell us about that. Yeah, I appreciate the way that you just began that question, too, because Mormonism is so dangerous as a false religion, because it uses a lot of the same terms that Christianity uses, and that's where it just muddies the water.

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And so this is a topic that is extremely important. It's very important for a Christian to understand the definition of terms and to know to whom they are talking with.

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And so I do hope that today's conversation sheds light maybe on how to evangelize to a

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Mormon neighbor or friend or even family member that might listen to this show today.

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But, yeah, no, my upbringing, I was raised in an LDS household. My family goes far back into Mormon history.

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I am a distant relative, but a relative nonetheless of Brigham Young. Wow.

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So I have a lot of roots. However, I get that response a lot.

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But when you have so many wives like Brigham Young did, it's quite easy to be related to them in one way or another.

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But, yes, I am related to Brigham Young. I also on my father's side was my family converted through my father's side through I don't know how many great, great, great, great grandpappies back.

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But the man supposedly was a very, very, he did not like his neighbors, how the story goes.

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And his neighbor one day came over and said, hey, the Mormons are coming around knocking on people's doors. Don't open your door to them.

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And so my great, great, great grandpappy, who didn't like his neighbor, made sure that he would let the

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Mormons in and not only that, but that the Mormons could go and preach next to the fence along his house.

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And through that process of hating his neighbor, he and his household was converted to Mormonism, unfortunately.

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And so just through that experience, that story, and then with the ties to Brigham Young himself,

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I eventually was born in a household of loving parents, along with four other brothers, was raised in the

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LDS church for 19 years before God so graciously opened my eyes, gave me the ability to hear his word and changed my heart, bringing me under that new covenant of grace.

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And so, yeah, there really was a family that was very planted, very much participating in the

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LDS religion, and so it was something that was— there was no other option for me growing up, really.

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And, yeah, that's quite fascinating. You're the second person I met.

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Actually, I've never met Sandra Tanner, but I've interviewed her. So in one sense, I met her, but not face to face.

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She is also in the lineage of or the prodigy of Brigham Young.

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And a friend of mine who lives in Idaho as well, he is a direct descendant of Joseph Smith and actually owns a

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Bible owned at one time by Joseph Smith. And the Mormons, I don't know if they're still doing it, but they were aggressively trying to convert him because of those facts for quite a while.

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They may have given up on him. But anyway, so I think it would also be good to obviously lay out a summary of what the

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Mormon religion is, including a summary of their core beliefs that would be at odds with the

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Bible. And, you know, give us a little history lesson and theology lesson about this cult.

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I love it. Yes, I would be more than happy to. One of the mighty things that I think

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God has done in my life in the years since being converted is He's slowly but surely allowed me to start to forget some of those things that have made it difficult for me in my learning of true

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Christianity. So I praise the Lord over that. But I will try my best to recall some of those doctrines and some of the history lessons.

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One of the blessings that I had when I was LDS is I did graduate with all four years of their high school seminary that they provide.

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And I was one of the strange kids that actually really attended. I attended actually double doses of seminary often from different teachers.

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So I heard the same lesson plan, but taught from two different perspectives in their doctrine.

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And so when I was being raised, my brothers who were older than me that went on a mission said about me that I would be a greater missionary than themselves.

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And so just with throughout the memorization of their hundred scripture masteries that they had, it's been a great blessing now how

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God has brought other Mormons into my life. And I've been able to chat with them in a very intimate way of knowing what they're speaking of.

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But yeah, so Mormonism started in the cradle of the United States of some explosive heretical doctrine.

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As we see several false teachings, some heretical, some getting very close to the boundaries of orthodoxy during the 1800s.

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Joseph Smith and his family was notorious for this kind of false teaching and doctrine.

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However, according to Mormonism, the first vision account is where they would take somebody to.

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And so in the first vision account, according to what they have in their production of material, is that Joseph Smith desired to join the one and only true church through seeking out different places.

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He had some difficulty because there were different denominations and there were different teachings coming about.

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And so therefore he didn't know which one to join. And so one day he read

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James chapter one, verses six through seven, decided it would be a good idea because he lacked knowledge to pray to God for wisdom.

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And he did such out in the woods with no one else around. And in the midst of being what he would describe as being attacked by the enemy in this overwhelming darkness,

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God himself, the father revealed himself, came down out of heaven and appeared before Joseph.

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The father did this and also the son, Jesus, according to Joseph. And they told him these two individual beings, and I would hope if anybody's listening to this that has

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Christian eyes and Christian lens on, this is already sounding very foreign and doctrine. Jesus and the father told him not to join any of the churches that they had all gone astray, that all their creeds and confessions were nothing but an abomination to the

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Lord. Which again, both to you, Chris, and myself, with us believing that we're saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone, according to God's word alone for his glory alone.

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That's some of the creeds and confessions of the, even that day that Joseph Smith was saying was nothing but an abomination to the

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Lord. And so through this vision that Joseph Smith had, progressive time takes place and he receives more visions to the point where then he retrieves, according to himself, these golden plates, and he's able to translate those things into the

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Book of Mormon. And then also was able to get ahold of some papyri in that day that he translated as the

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Book of Abraham or the Pearl of Great Price. And then he also produced the majority of the

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Doctrine and Covenants along with Brigham Young himself who finished up the last final chapters before he died while in jail, along with another individual there.

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But that is the short and sweet story of Joseph Smith is that he was teaching that the church after Christ's ascension and the death of the apostles, that for 1800 years, there was no true church on the earth, and that it was through him and his other fellow individual beings that were following him in the 1800s, they were able to restore to the earth a priesthood and a true church of Christ and that they are now in the final dispensation.

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It would be some of the founding doctrines or the founding moments in Mormonism. Some of the core doctrines that distinguish them as Mormon is that they do believe in a faith plus works salvation, meaning that they believe that it is necessary and required for all true believers to be baptized, whether this is after somebody is dead and therefore is baptized in proximity, also known as baptisms for the dead.

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They believe that baptism is a necessary ordinance in order to be able to go to heaven or to go to the celestial kingdom is another way that they would word it.

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But baptism is a necessary ordinance. They would say temple work is a necessary ordinance.

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Your own enduring to the end is a necessary action on the individual in order to have salvation, exaltation.

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And so that is a core difference and a distinction within Christianity compared to Mormonism is that Mormonism teaches that it's through works that one is saved.

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Another core distinction would be that they believe that in exaltation that the Mormon can become like God, that God was once as we are.

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So meaning that our father was subject to another God and then that God was subject to another

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God and then that God was subject to another God going back in infinity. And then therefore everything going forward would be another affinity.

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There would be another procreation of gods to come. So they believe in a plurality of gods.

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They would say that they only worship the one God, their one father, but they believe in a plurality of gods that they themselves can become

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God through these righteous works. And then they would also hold a very distinguishing factor compared to Christianity.

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And that is Jesus is not the one and only true God, that he is not the second person of the

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Trinity, but that he is a member of the Godhead is how they would word it, saying that he is similar in substance to the father, but distinct in being that they are two separate beings and that the son came about through the father, that he's not eternally existed with the father as far as what the

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Christian would teach it as. So those I would say are probably the three foundational differences between Mormonism and Christianity is one being a salvation through works, two being a plurality of gods, and three,

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Jesus not being the one and only God for us. I think that would be the three foundational differences.

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Yes, and they are huge differences. There are folks who would swear,

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I'm talking about Bible -believing born -again Christians who would swear that Mormons are their brothers in Christ because they meet them and they're such morally upright and kind and gregarious and wonderful people.

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Some of them are convinced, for instance, that a very well -known political figure who

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I even enjoy listening to who is a

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Mormon, who has really been gaining a growing audience of fans amongst

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Christians, and this individual has been declared by many to be a brother in Christ just because they find so much in common with him about morals and politics.

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And right at this second, I'm showing my age that I have the deteriorating brain because I can't remember his name.

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He's a very famous person. Do you know what I'm talking about? You know, the name is actually slipping my mind as well.

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I do know exactly who you're talking about. White hair. Oh, man. He used to be on Fox News.

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Now he has his own network. Glenn Beck. Yes. Glenn Beck.

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Glenn Beck. In fact, I just saw an interview recently between an old friend of mine who is probably, at least his name will be easily recognized since he's a world -renowned figure, but Max Lucado.

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I was actually the very first person to get Max Lucado on the radio.

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I sold his publisher a Christmas special back in the 1990s when

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Max was not well -known. He was kind of a rising star but not very well -known.

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And I loved, at that time, his book, God Came Near, which was about the

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Incarnation, and I sold the publisher of that book a one -hour

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Christmas special that Max narrated, and we had Christmas music interspersed in between portions of the book that he narrated.

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But anyway, unfortunately, Max has become more ecumenical in areas where no

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Christian should be and more tolerant of homosexuality and things like that.

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But he was interviewed by Glenn Beck, and for some reason he is a hero of Glenn Beck, and Max repeatedly throughout the interview was identifying

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Glenn as his brother. So this is something that is a word that only those who have been purchased by the blood of Christ have the privilege of having as an identity our brother or sister in Christ, and to consider and to comfort and encourage someone by calling them your brother or sister is really a horrendous thing when that person is a perpetrator of a damning false religion.

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As my guest just mentioned moments ago, they believe that there are innumerable gods.

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In fact, they have more gods than the Hindus do, because each and every one of them has an ability to achieve godhood and, of course, works righteousness and all that that we will be getting into.

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Now, do you think that instead of identifying

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Mormons as polytheists, that it might be more accurate to call them henotheists?

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Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say I've heard that before, and I think that would be fair.

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It's still fundamentally polytheism. They believe that there's a plurality of gods. They just don't worship a plurality of gods.

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Exactly, yep. Which a henotheist would believe in one supreme god for them that they worship, but they do believe that there could be an infinite number of gods beside that god.

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Absolutely, yeah. So they would definitely fall into that category, and it also brings into question the immutability of God, the aseity of God, the uniqueness of God.

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It questions all those things that are revealed in God's word very clearly about who the being and the essence of God is.

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It's very clear that it's a completely different faith in a god that doesn't exist that the

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Mormons have, and that is the issue, is that these things are essential to Christianity.

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These are things that are essential to salvation, and like you said, they're essential to being able to call one another brothers or sisters in Christ.

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When we think of the adoption that takes place, it's through the sinner being justified in the blood of Jesus Christ that we have the premise of being able to call each other brothers and sisters, and if somebody doesn't have faith in God as the way that he has described himself to be, they are excluded from that essential of Christianity, and they therefore cannot be called brothers or sisters, even if they have the appearance, even if they have a moral ground to stand upon.

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Faith is only as good as the object that you put it into. I bring this a lot out when

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I'm talking to my Mormon friends, not brothers or sisters, but my Mormon neighbors, my

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LDS neighbors. If I said I had faith in Jesus Christ, or in Jesus, you'd probably say that's a good thing, and every

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LDS person would say, yes, that's a very good thing, but if I was to tell you that the Jesus I have faith in is also my cashier at the local grocery store, and he sometimes goes by Jesus, and he's very kind, he bags my groceries up very well every single time, and I have faith in him salvifically, they'll say, no, no, no, that's not the

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Jesus that you should have faith in, and I respond and say, that's the exact argument that I'm making for you is that you have a faith in a

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Jesus that cannot save, and according to Jesus, the Jesus that you're saying that you supposedly have faith in,

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Jesus said, unless you believe I am, you shall die in your sins, and you are denying Jesus is the one and only

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God that is from everlasting to everlasting, paying the price of our sins upon the cross is what you are denying, and so therefore, it's just as good as placing faith in that grocery store clerk as you are in this fake historical figure that you are trying to place your faith into.

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It will not save you. And by the way, folks, just to clarify, I don't believe Mormons, unless my guest wants to correct me,

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I don't believe that they identify themselves as polytheists or henotheists, but that is an accurate description of them nonetheless.

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We're going to our first commercial break, and when we come back, I'd like you to get more detailed about either the moment the light switch went on as far as you recognizing this is a false religion that you were in, or of the gradual process, either way which it occurred.

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We know that regeneration is instantaneous, and justification is instantaneous, but what is different about all of us in our journey when we have been saved by the one true

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Christ and the one true gospel is that some just immediately abandon their idols and their false religions and their, at least begin the journey of their repentance from their sin, and then some, it's a gradual breaking down of understanding.

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But we'll get into that in more detail when we come back. If you have a question of your own that you'd like to ask my guest today,

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Brayden Patterson, about Mormonism, about his conversion specifically to not only

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Christianity but also to Reformed Baptist theology, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. As always, give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the

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USA. Please only remain anonymous if your question involves a very personal and private matter.

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Let's say you are a Mormon, and you're listening, and you are starting to doubt the religion that you're in.

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You're starting to get cracks in the foundation of the very faith that you once cherished, and you don't want to identify yourself publicly at this point.

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Well, that's understandable, and there may be other reasons why you would want to remain anonymous as well. But if it's a general question about Mormonism, about biblical theology, about church history, in regard to this topic, please give us your first name at least, city and state, and country of residence.

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Don't go away. We're going to be right back right after these messages from our sponsors. I'm Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church, a

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At Lindbrook Baptist Church, we believe the scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the inspired

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We believe in salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. This salvation is based upon the sovereign grace of God, was purchased by Christ on the cross, and is received through faith alone, apart from any human merit, works, or ritual.

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Salvation in Christ also results in righteous living, good works, and appropriate respect and concern for all who bear

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That's L -Y -N -BrookBaptist .org. This is Pastor Keith Allen of Lindbrook Baptist Church reminding you that by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves.

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That's royaldiadem .com. We're now back with my guest today, who, if you just tuned in, he is a former

40:10

Mormon who came to the true knowledge of the true

40:17

Jesus Christ, of the true scriptures, by grace alone through faith alone.

40:24

And this dear brother is Braden Patterson, pastor of Valley Baptist Church in Hagerman, Idaho.

40:32

He's also one of the speakers at the upcoming Open Air Theology Conference this

40:37

February in Tullahoma, Tennessee. Before we continue on with the theme of our discussion, which is your conversion out of Mormonism, why don't you tell us a bit about this conference, this

40:48

Open Air Theology Conference, where my friend James White and a roster of other fine ministers are also speaking.

40:56

Yeah, I would love to. I would say, are you even Reformed if you're not going to be at this conference?

41:03

And I only say that as a joke, of course. It's going to be an absolute blessing. The last conference that we held this last year now, in the year 2023,

41:12

I was able to attend that and was one of the speakers there. And the fellowship was phenomenal.

41:18

It was out of this world. It was truly a great blessing. There wasn't a sermon that was given that I didn't have tears running down my face on.

41:27

It was some of the most powerful moments of my life, I think, for preaching.

41:33

So I would really encourage anybody to come to it. It's going to be February 22nd to the 24th. And as you said, in Tullahoma, Tennessee, it's going to be on the topic of why

41:42

Calvinism. The topic that I'll be preaching on with that topic itself is going to be on from the

41:51

Old to the New Covenant and how Calvinism is seen within those things. And so I'm so excited to be preaching on that topic.

41:59

We have several, just, we have kind of a, last year we had a little bit less well -known preachers.

42:06

This year we have an intermingling, I would say, of those things. I'm definitely on the side of not very well -known, but I'm excited to be able to fellowship along with Sam Waldron, as you mentioned,

42:16

James White, and then, again, all the brothers that are going to be there.

42:21

It's going to be truly a phenomenal conference. So please check it out. You can find your tickets at openairtheology .com,

42:29

I believe it is. I don't know if it's .org or .com, but if you Google Open Air Theology, it should be one of the very first links. Definitely purchase a ticket, and I really look forward to meeting you there and fellowshipping and worshipping

42:39

God with you there. It should be a great time to discuss the doctrines of grace in very applicable ways about how you, yourself as a

42:46

Christian, can glorify God, advance his kingdom, and just have assurance in what Christ has done for you.

42:53

And also the church that is hosting this conference, the church pastored by Jeffrey Rice, who also owns

43:02

Post Tenebrous Lux Bible Rebonding, the church website is CovenantRBCTN .com,

43:12

CovenantRBC for Reformed Baptist Church, TN for Tennessee .com. That's CovenantRBCTN .com.

43:19

Don't be shocked when you log into that website and see a photo of Pastor Jeff Rice, because he looks exactly like an

43:27

Eastern Orthodox priest in this photo. But he is not,

43:32

I can assure you, he is a confessional Reformed Baptist. Yeah, he's a dear brother in Christ.

43:38

Yes, he is. Definitely, definitely go check him out and check out that church. And I would encourage anybody that lives in Tullahoma, Tennessee or nearby areas to go check out that church.

43:49

That is a preaching post that seeks to herald the good news in marvelous ways.

43:56

So definitely go check out that church if you live in that area. And can you remind us of the dates one more time in February?

44:04

Yeah, so it'll be February 22nd to the 24th. On the 21st of that month as well, there'll be a pre -conference where they'll be discussing the dangers of full preterism.

44:18

So they'll be discussing why that's heretical and how to have a proper exegesis. So I'm really looking forward to that.

44:25

I'm really hoping to make it to that portion of the conference as well. And then maybe also to mention on that, so the 22nd to the 24th, the conference itself, the final day, will also be having a debate between, and I cannot pronounce the gentleman's last name so I would apologize to him if he hears this, but his name's

44:42

Jason, and between him and James White on Calvinism. And so it'll be a real blessing.

44:50

I believe Jason, and I hope I'm not misrepresenting him, I believe he's a provisionist. And so it should be a wonderful time just to hear those two individuals discuss the doctrines of grace in a debate format.

45:03

I think it's specifically on definite atonement, isn't it? It is, yes sir, yep.

45:09

Which is also known as particular redemption and limited atonement. And even though now, in the 21st century,

45:18

Armenians are using the word or phrase substitutionary atonement, they really cannot logically and consistently use that term to define their understanding of the atonement.

45:32

Yes. It's really a Calvinistic phrase and understanding. But, and I did look up the website for Open Air Theology, it is openairtheology .com.

45:44

Okay. We are now going to delve into, in more detail, the way that God began to put cracks in the foundation of your beloved

45:57

Mormon faith. Tell us in more details about what specifically were these biblical truths that were haunting you and how the

46:08

Lord actually brought these truths to your attention. Yeah. I would go back to some of the statements that you were making before the break, that even though my conversion is unique in what

46:21

God called me out of, it always depends upon Him having foreknowledge, predestinating, calling, justifying and glorifying the believer.

46:31

And so in that way, my story is very normative, but it's also very particular to me and very special to myself and what

46:38

He did call me out of, as you made mention of. I was raised in a loving

46:44

LDS household. Whatever the listeners are picturing as what a

46:50

Mormon looks like when an LDS member looks like an LDS missionary, that is what I appeared as.

46:57

Just as when you say the Gerber baby, everybody knows what the Gerber baby looks like.

47:03

When you say LDS member, whatever is pictured in your mind, that was me. I was as true -blooded

47:09

Mormon as you possibly could get. I would go to the LDS stake centers and to the

47:16

LDS conferences, travel for those things. I was very ingrained in Mormonism.

47:21

As I said earlier, loved seminary, graduated with all the four years with the 100 Scripture Masteries, was getting ready to go on my mission, baptized at age eight, all that kind of stuff.

47:32

And so I was very, very ingrained in it. If you were to ask me moments before I was to leave the

47:40

LDS church, if I would ever leave, I would tell you absolutely not, and that it was the only true church is what my conviction was.

47:49

But that was based off of feelings, not off of the transcendent truth of who

47:54

Christ is. And so that's where everything would fall apart for me. And so getting into that story,

48:00

I was preparing to go on my LDS mission. I was getting my vaccinations records and everything taken care of in preparation for that mission call.

48:11

I was at the age 19 at the time. It was right in the transitional period when the prophet changed the age for missionaries to go on their mission from 19 to 18.

48:23

And so they just changed it. I had just turned 19. And so I was preparing for all those things.

48:28

And I had met a lovely lady at the time who became my girlfriend. And a little bit of a spoiler alert, she became my wife and the mother of our three sons,

48:40

Emily. And so I met her, very much was just captivated by her, her personality, her loveliness, everything that is

48:50

Emily, my wife. And my family, rightly so, and myself included, started putting the pressure on that if I didn't baptize her, that she would not wait for me on a mission.

49:02

And so about a month or two after meeting her and dating her in that preparatory period of going on that mission,

49:11

I gave her a book of Mormon. I had a desire to baptize her. And in my mind, if anybody was gonna tell her about Joseph Smith, temples, or the

49:20

LDS religion, I was the one to do it. I was the most educated that I knew. I was the most earnest about doing it.

49:27

I was one that would actually go and knock on people's doors before I was on my mission to go and tell them about Mormonism.

49:34

I was very peculiar in that way. And so very, very, very much felt I was prepared to share that with her.

49:41

And so gave her a book of Mormon. The next night, I sat with her in her driveway for roughly an hour to two hours where I just poured out my entire heart to her.

49:52

And in that, I talked about the necessity of prophets. I talked to her about the plan of happiness or the plan of salvation.

50:02

I gave to her the reason why Joseph Smith was a prophet, the new revelation of the book of Mormon, the reasons for why priesthood was essential, all these things.

50:14

And in the ending of that conversation, I bore my testimony to her.

50:20

And I thought to myself that there was no better way to tell anybody about the

50:26

LDS gospel other than the way that I just did it. And I knew it to be true in my mind and my heart. And in that process, my wife now, but at the time my girlfriend,

50:37

Emily, sat very patiently and quietly and listened very attentively to everything

50:42

I said. And she looked over at me and I thought after telling her that, that I was gonna baptize her and the next day

50:50

I was gonna baptize her family. That's how powerful the message I thought was. And she looked at me and she said, that's stupid.

50:56

That's stupid. Sorry about that.

51:03

No, that's the correct reaction to have. The strike in my pride was sure.

51:13

And the grace of our Lord started to call me, I would argue in that moment.

51:19

It went from, I knew everything to be true, that I would become a God one day like our

51:24

God currently, and that I would be able to do exactly what my father in heaven, my heavenly father was doing at that moment.

51:34

And it went from that in my mind being true to complete silliness and foolishness, stupidity.

51:40

My wife said it correctly, that was dumb, that was stupid for me to say and believe such a thing.

51:46

And so the conversation that night ended completely with my wife. We parted our ways very awkwardly, but I'm very thankful for my wife saying the truth at that time.

52:00

Now was she a born again believer? She wasn't at the time actually, she was raised

52:05

Catholic. And I would say she was not a practicing

52:11

Catholic to what many Catholics would be, but she knew enough to be dangerous.

52:17

She knew enough to be dangerous. And so the Lord from that moment on,

52:23

I opened up God's word to see if anything that I told her in its fullness and its completeness was true in the

52:29

Bible, because I was very adamant about proving her wrong. And now fast forward many years later to today,

52:35

I have not found one of the doctrines that I told her that night in its fullness to be according to God's word.

52:41

In fact, we have to go to our midway break right now and you can pick up where you left off. If anybody would like to join us with a question of your own, once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

52:53

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And also, as I said, send in your questions to my guest, chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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We'll be right back. Please do not go away. Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church.

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This is Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

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if you really love this show and click support at ironsharpensironradio .com also last but not least if you're not a member of a

01:12:22

Christ honoring biblically sound theologically solid church like valley baptist church in haigerman idaho well please i'm urging you to send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put i need a church in the subject line i have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches and i've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches that are sound sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live and that may be you too if you are without a solid church home send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

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and put i need a church in the subject line that's also the email address where you could send a question to my guest today braden patterson pastor of valley baptist church of haigerman idaho it's chrisarnson at gmail .com

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give his first name at least city and state and country of residence going back to where we left off you were talking about how your wife who is not yet born again uh still knew enough about the bible to recognize that this religion that you were lovingly attempting to convert her and her family to was indeed not only a false religion but a stupid one and i'm sorry for our listeners who are mormon who are going to be offended by that but that's just the history of this particular event between my guest and his then girlfriend now wife so if you could please pick up where you left off yeah i think i think the the peculiarness of the story of mine is that it's always a good thing to to sometimes be bluntly honest with somebody and so that that's uh if you are feeling convicted as a christian to tell somebody the truth whatever that might entail i definitely would encourage somebody to do such because you never know what it might be calling them out of um yeah so to go back to my story is that the after my wife at the at the time girlfriend said that to me in a very loving way that she would it uh it it began a twirling effect of opening my eyes and it was like a semi -truck hit me right then and there that what i had just told her was true to now um i i need to go search these things out in the following month from that i i was very challenged i was challenged beyond what i'd ever been challenged before and from looking into things and being very confused i it the best way i could the best way i could do it is i just felt like i was blind i felt like somebody had finally told me that the vision i was having was actually blindness and trying my hardest to find resources online and trying to sift through things there were things that were still very challenging to myself and and several of those things were how can jesus be god jesus can't be god is what was going through my mind and and so through some discussion with my girlfriend some challenges that came along with my personal life we decided to go to a a christian church and so as most people would you go to the biggest church which is sometimes not always the best but we went to the biggest church in the area that i lived which was boise idaho at the time and that certainly could not have been a reformed baptist church if it's the biggest church it was not a reformed baptist church nope but interestingly enough through the lord's providence the very first thing that they were advertising for that church service was for a new bible study that had just recently started which was called leaving mormonism for christ and so from that my my girlfriend emily and i we said that is where we have to go and so we traveled some distance to get to this bible study that that week during that week i believe it was a wednesday and we traveled we show up to this random person's house that we've never met before and we walk in and um the very one of the very first bible studies i think it was even the very first one they were doing a lesson on how to evangelize to lds members and so they wanted to do a role -playing situation and so somebody had to volunteer to be the christian that was doing the evangelism that was a dear brother in christ named nathan nathan anderson volunteered to be the christian that would evangelize and then they needed somebody to play the mormon and i raised my hand and i i said if anybody could do this it's going to be me in fact this this this christian that's evangelizing to me in this bible study role -playing sessions he might even become mormon after i'm done talking to him that's how confident i was even this little role -playing game and in it this gentleman nathan read john 1 1 and it was in him reading that it all of a sudden clicked for me i i couldn't deny jesus as my lord and my god and my savior who died for me and rose again on the third day and it was from that moment forward that it seemed like the the the the the gates of grace just swung open and since then god has placed wonderful men in my life that have helped disciple me tremendously that have helped me spiritually theologically doctrinally in churches outside of churches it's been absolutely wonderful right out of the gate so about a week after that my wife i would say was then experienced being born again and having faith in christ as well she she was read 2 corinthians 5 21 that he who knew no sin became sin on our behalf so that we might be made the righteousness of god in him that was when she recognized christ and his penile substitutionary atonement for us so just tremendous things that happened in that bible study was really remarkable but matt slick of karm .org

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christian oh yeah i just had him on the show not long ago yes you did so he was actually the he he came to the very next bible study there at that house and so immediately i met him he started discipling me i was able to attend his online school that he does and he was doing one -on -one stuff with me as far as teaching me just different doctrines in the bible and so that was right out of the gate christianity 101 learning terms definitions and and having somebody that i could connect with that was going to help me sift through this muddiness of the water that mormonism had created in my mind from there after knowing him and being discipled by him for several some some time i'm not i cannot remember exactly how long it was but just a couple of years had gone by of knowing him my wife and i my wife myself why i obtained a job in twin falls idaho moved over there immediately was planted in another great reformed baptist church called east side baptist church with the pastor paul thompson immediately was loved on by him and the congregation of east side and i i approached paul and said paul i i feel the the call to become a pastor i feel that that's where the lord is is leading me and my ability to glorify him and so as the good pastor that he is he started to disciple me which led to eventually being ordained and licensed out of east side baptist church and then from there i was called the valley baptist church and have been able to serve the lord since and so it's been it's been truly a blessing to to be strengthened in my knowledge of the lord and um as previously said you know being born again it was all glory to god it was something that in in my deadness of my sin there is no way that anyone could have convinced me out of mormonism there's no way that somebody could have convinced me to have faith in the biblical christ unless it was god himself that was doing it and so um i look back at all the times of having christians talk to me and i value that beyond belief whether it was in second grade and having a right after i'd been baptized and me going into school as i would as the good mormon i was telling everybody that i was baptized and that i now had the holy spirit and that they too needed to be baptized in the mormon church there was a little girl who said nope i know jesus and that's enough hallelujah even from that even from and that was the first first example of having a christian evangelized to me and i still i i wish i knew that little girl's name and thank her for that to going to to temple services to the temple to go walk through before they were dedicated and having matt slick before i knew who matt slick was discuss doctrine with my family as we were in line going into the the temple being challenged by the things that he was saying and me considering why is it that my family cannot respond to this man's claims and being disturbed by that at a very young age to even finding matt slick's the karm .org

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gospel tracks that he would go into desert book and boise and put into the book of mormons and me finding one when i was looking at obtaining a quad is what they would call it looking at obtaining a book of mormon for myself and finding that gospel track in there and seeing how my mom reacted to pretty pretty upset about the idea of a christian a person putting anti -mormon literature into a book of mormon i i look at all those examples and i just i'm so thankful for those seeds that were planted over time and and eventually that took root and sprouted and and yeah it is by the grace of the lord and his growth in my life that i i know him and profess him as such today and then from there to be able to have fellowship with great brothers in the faith like jeff rice and haps addison and and just just the remarkableness that it is to know christ it's been a wonderful thing and then on on top of that to be to be reformed and be part of to hold to the 1689 it it's it's been it's been wonderful amen and before i go to any of my listener questions there is a special member of our audience whose birthday it is today i want to wish brawny vanderwerker a happy birthday and brawny is the wife of sterling vanderwerker the owner of royal diadem .com

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whose ad you heard in the beginning of the program a very important advertiser with iron trip and zion radio so we want to wish brawny his wife a happy birthday as sterling put it he wanted me to welcome brawny into medicare so since i'm saying that i'm also going to be announcing soon the date and location of sterling's funeral that was sterling's idea brawny not mine but i can assure you that brawny vanderwerker is quite a beautiful woman and looks like she's got at least 20 more years before she should be on medicare but anyway i hope that you have a great one brawny and i wish i was there to celebrate with you and sterling now we are going to go to some of our listener questions who are actually addressing the subject at hand uh and i'm going to unlike what i normally do i'm going to read his full name because he's a dear friend he's a pastor of a solid church and he's also one of the speakers at the open air theology conference where my guest is speaking claude ramsey of reframata baptist church there in dear brother in christ in tennessee and uh let's see pastor claude ramsey says i appreciate iron sharpens iron and you mr arnzen oh thank you very much claude my question for brayden is what would be the best steps for christians to learn about mormonism and also would you care to share the particular portion of your testimony oh he already this is where you already brought up where you and your wife were dating he already brought that up as you likely have heard claude but anyway you can go on with the first part of his question the best steps for christian to learn about mormonism well i know before are my guest answers you can get those books by by james white which are available from solid -ground -books .com

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i do not care about crass commercialism when a company and ministry is keeping this show on the air financially but solid -ground -books .com

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carries the books is the mormon my brother and by the way the answer to that question that dr white provides is no and also letters to a mormon elder which are at solid -ground -books .com

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but what else can you tell pastor claude ramsey about learning about mormonism yeah i love brother claude he's a wonderful dear brother in christ as i said you know i would be a big proponent that a lot of christians when it comes to wanting to evangelize to lds individuals they typically go to the black what i would refer to as the black stains of the religion which are relatively easy to find and to articulate to a lds member such as some of their dark history some of the moments the mountain meadows mask or some of the polygamy with joseph smith and brigham young these things are or even the trans translation of the book of mormon how that came about in a hat these things are very easy to show they're very quick to bring about especially in the the age that we live in with the phones however i highly discourage any christian to think that sharing such a thing and then walking away from a conversation has done any good oftentimes when a mormon member leaves the lds church they end up leaving and becoming an atheist or an agnostic and it's often because they have not been told that the true salvation that is in the true christ and that is him living a perfect life dying the death that they deserve and being buried and rising again on the third day and that it is through his work completely that we are saved not anything of ourselves unless christ died needlessly galatians 2 21 the the issue is is that those things are so easy to have and mormons will and i've had this experience happen to me quite literally adult mormons will plug their ears and say la la la la as you say those things to them all that we've done is we've we've given them something that tries to draw them out of a religion without giving them the answer to salvation what what is the necessary means of salvation and so i would argue the best place for a christian to study mormonism or to study against mormonism is to go to god's word itself and to study and saturate yourself in the word be prepared always to give a answer a defense for the faith that you have and why i say that is for somebody for a counterfeit bill people that work in in counterfeiting things the way that the way that you can tell a real dollar bill from a fake one is that you need to study the real one first you need to know completely what the real one is to identify which is false in the counterfeit product and so study god's word study it know it know the context of things know the way to articulate them to your friends and family and then from there i would encourage any christian to study the lds .org's

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material and the reason i say that is if you bring up things from websites that the mormon has never heard of they'll just say that's anti -mormon doctrine whether it's true or whether it's not they will plug their ears and say the la la la la stuff because they see that as something that is hurting the the lds religion itself and so they don't want to hear it but if you're able to study there's uh on the lds website lds .org

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if you're able to go on there and show them from there that they have a false gospel it's so easy to and they'll accept it in fact if you just google church of jesus christ of latter -day saints what is the gospel on one of the very first links that you would look in i have it pulled up right here it says in its fullness the gospel includes all the doctrines principles laws ordinances and covenants necessary for us to be exalted in the celestial kingdom the savior has promised that if we endure to the end faithfully living the gospel he will hold us guiltless before the father at the final judgment so according to the lds they're saying it is through christ plus what we do our endurance our obedience that we are saved we that that's what their definition of the gospel is according to their website and then from there you can show them the severity that paul himself has put forth in galatians chapter 189 that if anybody comes and preaches the gospel whether it's an angel or another man that's contrary to the one that you have yet received let him be a curse let him be anathema showing that there's only one gospel and what is that one gospel well it's the word god the one that we have sinned against him coming dying for us living for us dying for us and then rising again that we are able to have forgiveness and show them the the the the difference between those two different gospels which one is really not a gospel but is rather trotting upon the blood of christ in a very blasphemous way that would be my first place to go another place for other listeners i i do have a youtube channel called reformed ex -mormon i do sometimes i do answer a lot of things on there and so that would be a helpful resource like you said chris going and checking out some of the things from james white is a is a phenomenal resource karm .org

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another great resource there's several places to go but i would urge the christian to enter any conversation with a mormon by presenting them what the gospel is and why the mormons why the lds have a false gospel a false jesus and a false god going back to those three core distinctions between mormonism and christianity and let me plug the church of my dear friend pastor claude ramsey since it is a church definitely worth recommending a church that i had the privilege of visiting there in knoxville tennessee not long ago the church is reformata baptist church and that is spelled with a d -a at the end if you're wondering oh wait a minute no it's a t i'm sorry a t -a at the end reformata baptist church or if i had a church it'd be called reformada baptist church but this is reformata baptist church in knoxville tennessee they do not have a website of their own but they do have a facebook page and pastor claude ramsey is also the host of the here i stand theology podcast and you can find that not only on facebook but at the here i stand theology podcast dot buzzsprout .com

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b -u -z -z sprout dot com that's the here i stand theology podcast dot buzz sprout dot com and by the way folks pastor claude ramsey is going to be my guest once again on iron sharpens iron radio in the not so distant future and uh so uh keep listening to this program uh for updates oh it's on the 19th of january i'm looking at it right now nine that's friday the 19th of january four to six p .m

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eastern on iron trap and zion radio um let's see here we have roy in electric city washington i'm wondering if that city lives up to its name conjures up all kinds of exciting notions in your head but roy in electric city washington asks do you think that a mormon might be a truly regenerate brother or sister in christ even while in that false religion that is a great question it wouldn't be the normative thing for sure i think that there is a there's a certain level at which somebody might be ignorant to the core distinctions of mormonism and therefore i think by definition wouldn't be a mormon but they may think they're a mormon they might think they're a mormon they they might even be going to the ward chapel and they might you know have the book of mormon that they read in the pearl of great price and the doctrine and covenants and all that stuff but they actually they actually believe in the true gospel in spite of the false teaching of the mormon church and they also are mono monotheists not polytheists and on and on yeah exactly and it would be the same thing for for maybe even the the non -regulative uh seeing somebody in the catholic church right somebody that might not fully understand that which is in in in the catholic religion the roman catholic religion but they would profess all that they would profess the essentials of christianity assuredly right that they've been born again because we know no one can enter into the kingdom of god unless they're born again so this individual has to be born again we would say that they would confess jesus as as both god fully and truly and man truly and fully the hypostatic union you would confess the trinity that there's only one god in being three in persons the father son and the holy spirit you would look and say that jesus was born of a virgin you would say as as chris already said monotheism that there's one god from everlasting to everlasting we would confess that individual would need to confess according to the what word the word of god has shown to us that it is a man is justified apart from the works of the law but only through faith in christ that that would come from romans even i have it open here romans chapter 3 verse 28 for we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law galatians chapter 2 let me look let me turn to it before i misquote it for us but galatians chapter 2 let's open up here and i'll give my email address again while you're looking that up chrisarnson at gmail .com

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chrisarnson at gmail .com give his first name at least city and state and country of residence so yeah so galatians chapter 2 verse 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of law but through faith in jesus christ even we have believed in christ jesus so that we may be justified by faith in christ and not by the works of law since by the works of law shall no flesh be justified and then if you go down to verse 21 for i do not set aside the grace of god for if righteousness comes through the law then christ died needlessly when we when we think about even matthew chapter 7 there will be many on the last day that say lord lord have we not prophesied have we not cast out demons in your name have we not done all these many mighty miracles in your name i pause there and i would say to anybody that thinks about this we would look and say that those appear to be good works prophesying casting out demons many mighty miracles in the name of jesus that appears to be a great good work but the issue is is that these people are professing salvation based off of their actions rather than the finished work of christ and therefore jesus in the very next verse says depart from me ye workers of iniquity i never knew you and so absolutely there could be somebody within the mormon church that is regenerate that looks to the finished work of christ on the cross that know him as our lord and our god these things could be true however i do not think that a a mormon that is going to a mormon church that knows the more mormon distinctives will continue to go to such a church likewise with the catholic they will not continue to go to the catholic church they know that the catholic church is teaching something contrary to what the gospel is if anybody wants to look up the testimony of a friend of mine who's now in eternity with christ william norman grigg g -r -i -g -g former senior editor of the new american magazine he gives his testimony of leaving mormonism and becoming a born -again believer by the grace and mercy of christ and he after becoming born again out of fear of losing his wife and family remained in the lds church and he and he did admit on my program that that was not the right thing to do but he remained in the lds cult for well over a decade after becoming born again he said he said he was teaching true biblical doctrine and he wasn't it was going over the heads of his leaders so he was never stopped it's amazing that he got away with that but but he still nonetheless remained in there for well over a decade after becoming saved and eventually his whole family got thanks be to god were born again and all left wonderful but yeah those things are possible there's all kinds of scenarios i mean technically somebody could be an orthodox in an orthodox jewish family and have privately a true understanding of christ and the gospel and be saved uh and and hide that and continue on and going to the synagogue and stuff that is not a right thing to do but it is technically possible that that could happen things like that absolutely yeah uh we have to go to our final break and we do have some questions from listeners left we have cindy and finley ohio and some others so be patient with us but don't go away because we will be right back after these messages an iron sharpens iron radio first launched in 2005 the publishers of the new american standard bible were among my very first sponsors it gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the iron sharpens iron radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the nasb i'm dr joseph piper president and professor of systematic and homiletical theology at greenville presbyterian theological seminary in taylor's south carolina and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor chuck white at the first trinity lutheran church in tonawanda new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor anthony methenia of christ church in radford virginia and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jesse miller of damascus road christian church in gardenville nevada and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor bruce bennett of word of truth church in farmerville long island new york and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor rodney brown of metro bible church in south lake texas and the nasb is my bible of choice i'm pastor jim harrison of redmills baptist church in mayapac falls new york and the nasb is my bible of choice here's a great way for your church to help keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air pastors are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart consider restocking your pews with the nasb and tell the publishers you heard about them from chris arnzen on iron sharpens iron radio go to nasbible .com

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that's nasbible .com to place your order it's such a blessing to hear from iron sharpens iron radio listeners from all over the world here's joe reilly a listener in ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed dr joe moorcraft i'm joe reilly a faithful iron sharpens iron radio listener here in attoy in county kildare ireland going back to 2005 one of my very favorite guests on iron sharpens iron is dr joe moorcraft if you've been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio dr moorcraft and heritage presbyterian church of plumbing georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters heritage presbyterian church of plumbing is in foresight county a part of the atlantan metropolitan area heritage is a thoroughly biblical church unwaveringly committed to westminster standards and dr joe moorcraft is the author of an eight volume commentary on the larger catechism heritage is a member of the hanover presbytery built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets jesus christ himself being the chief and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great protestant reformation of the 16th century heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers scripture alone grace alone faith alone christ alone and god's glory alone their primary goal is the worship of the triune god that continues in eternity for more details on heritage presbyterian church of plumbing georgia visit heritage presbyterian church .com

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that's heritage presbyterianchurch .com or call 678 -954 -7831 that's 678 -954 -7831 if you visit tell them joe reilly and iron sharpens iron radio listener matai and county kildare arlen sanchez hi i'm buzz taylor chris arnson of iron sharpens iron radio has had a long time partnership with our friends at cvbbs which stands for cumberland valley bible book service they specialize in supplying reformed and puritan books and bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone cvbbs has been a family -owned book service since 1987 operating out of carlisle pennsylvania they seek to bring you the best available christian books and bibles at the best possible prices unlike other book sites they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because frankly much of what is being printed is not worth your time that means you can get to the good stuff faster it also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic heretical and otherwise faith insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors browse the pages at ease shop at your leisure and purchase with confidence at cumberland valley bible service order online at cvbbs .com

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that's cvbbs .com or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231 that's 1 -800 -656 -0231 please let our friends at cvbbs know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio hi this is john sampson pastor of king's church in peoria arizona taking a moment of your day to talk about chris arnzen and the iron sharpens iron podcast i consider chris a true friend and a man of high integrity he's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions while always defending the key doctrines of the christian faith i've always been happy to point people to this podcast knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray i believe this podcast needs to be heard far and this is a day of great spiritual compromise and yet god has raised chris up for just such a time and knowing this it's up to us as members of the body of christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances i'm pleased to do so and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting iron sharpens iron financially would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry i know it would be a huge encouragement to chris if you would all the details can be found at iron sharpens iron radio .com

01:46:46

where you can click support that's iron sharpens iron radio .com i'm dr tony costa professor of apologetics and islam at toronto baptist seminary i'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where i've been invited to speak and have grown to love hope reform baptist church in long island new york pastored by rich jansen and christopher mcdowell it's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of god like the dear saints at hope reform baptist church in quorum who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of christ in his holy word and to enthusiastically proclaim christ jesus the king and his doctrines of sovereign grace in suffolk county long island and beyond i hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love as i have for more information on hope reform baptist church go to hope reform li .net

01:47:56

that's hope reformed li .net or call 631 -696 -5711 that's 631 -696 -5711 tell the folks at hope reform baptist church of quorum long island new york that you heard about them from tony costa on iron sharpens iron i'm brian mclaughlin president of the secure com group and an enthusiastic supporter of chris arnson's iron sharpens iron radio program the secure com group provides the highest level of security close circuit television access control and communication systems for manhattan's top buildings as well as churches commercial properties municipalities and more we custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself including digital recording off -site viewing and connectivity from most smart devices from simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition the secure com group has it we also provide the latest in intercom and ip telephone systems in addition we provide superior networking platforms we'll create maintain and secure your local network whether it's a wi -fi or hardwire network we'll implement the latest secured firewall endpoint solutions and cloud backup i would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of iron sharpens iron radio listeners and their associates for more details on how the secure com group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations call 718 -353 -3355 that's 718 -353 -3355 or visit securecomgroup .com

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that's securecomgroup .com this is brian mclaughlin of the joining chris arnson's family of advertisers to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air puritan reformed is a bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church we are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone puritan reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image -bearing prophets priests and kings we teach families to worship together as families puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of god so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of god as the waters cover the sea we sing the psalms teach the law proclaim the gospel make disciples maintain discipline and exalt christ this is pastor david reese of puritan reformed in phoenix arizona join us in the glorious cause of advancing christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth puritan reformed church believe build fight puritan phx .com

01:51:15

welcome back and we have a question as i said before from cindy in finley ohio uh hello brayden and chris i've had only a couple of opportunities to speak to mormons and present the true gospel of jesus christ one verse that i offer to them as well as jehovah's witnesses and roman catholics is james chapter 2 verse 10 for whoever shall keep the whole law and offend in one point he is guilty of all they usually just ignore it and move on how does the mormon deal with this verse great question i i'm thankful to hear that somebody goes to james chapter 2 particularly because that's a place that a mormon would most likely try to take a christian uh the reason being is james chapter 2 uh verse 17 it says even so faith if it has no works is dead by itself and so yeah cindy you are taking them to the context of that right um that that we are dead in our sins that that if we have broken one of god's law which we all have we are are eternally condemned before a mighty and holy just god and so taking somebody to that and showing them our need for a savior is so important and then from there you can show how james is arguing against uh christians um that are saying hey i have faith in jesus but yet you don't actually show your faith that it's a faith that's actually just dead it's not a real faith that actually produces works for the glory of god and so um that's a wonderful place to take somebody um it's one that is in the favor of christians not the lds uh when you look at it it's not talking about justification between god and man and in a vertical sense it's talking about justification between believer and believer that james is saying i will show the other believer in christ my faith through what i do and then the actions that james references um whether it's abraham offering his son isaac um i i if a mormon takes you there and says hey you see faith is always something that you you have to have works in order to be justified before god and my question to them is well first of all genesis 15 and 17 come before genesis chapter 22 where i abraham or 21 which is offering up isaac uh so abraham was already uh declared legally righteous reckoned with righteousness before that chapter of him offering up his son isaac and if james chapter 2 is the the framework of how a man is justified by works then i ask well i have my son shepherd should i go offer my son shepherd tonight uh to god because that's the example that james chapter 2 shows for a man being justified and they'll say no no no no don't do that and i say well you're not being very consistent then in your in your understanding of this uh this bible verse then and so it's it's talking about justification between man and man it's talking about our need of a savior that is in jesus christ because we're all guilty under god's law um and so i think that that's a great place and again we have to understand according to the doctrines of grace which is the biblical view on these things uh john chapter 6 that these people if you speak james chapter 2 to them if they have ears that can hear they will come the father will draw them um that the sheep we can rest our head assuredly that when we proclaim christ that's to his glory and that his sheep will hear his voice and will come to him and so whether or not we we can we can push and plant those seeds uh we have to recognize that it's god doing the work and so take i i would encourage you cindy to keep on doing such keep on glorifying god keep on preaching christ crucified and let him do the work that he does i can clearly remember one of my former pastors mike gadosh of calvary baptist church of amityville long island and later grace reform baptist church of long island and merrick new york uh when he was preaching a series on james which he called the wake -up call he said james must have been from missouri because missouri is the show me state and basically what he was intending by that epistle was you say you have faith in christ well show me you know where's the evidence you know and these these false religions uh try to twist it into something that was never intended by james nor by the holy spirit who breathed those truths out uh precisely yeah romans chapter 4 it quotes the same place that james chapter 2 does in romans 4 says that we are only justified justified by faith like abraham was um and and that's if you were to ask abraham how do you know you're saved he would say i was declared legally right i was i was reckoned with righteousness but if you were asked if you were to ask isaac how do you know your father was saved he would say well you see the faith that my father professed he actually executed one day when he took me up a hill to offer me up right is what he would say and so yeah that's absolutely correct well sorry we don't have time for any more listener questions because i want my guest to summarize what he most wants etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today and we only have a couple of minutes so if you could do that yeah uh you know i would really lean on a recent message i gave uh it was actually our christmas eve message in matthew chapter 1 verse 21 through 23 it says that uh that the angel speaks to name him jesus for he shall save his people and in verse 23 it says that uh that he will be called emmanuel which is translated as to mean god with us it is god and god alone that we as his creation have sinned against our creator and in order for forgiveness to be forgiveness in order for jesus to actually save his people it is god who became flesh humbling himself that philippians chapter 2 picture that we see of christ he who existed in the form of god did not regard equality with god as a thing to be grasped but he emptied himself taking the form of a man being made under the law humbling himself to death even to death upon a cross and so it is through the word tabernacling a perfect life him dying for you and i substitutionarily that you and i are able to live again and when he rose from the grave everything that he said it validated the titles the claims the actions the names of christ it validated it all and that is including the i am statement from john chapter 8 have faith in him take courage in that and and know that that you have assurance there through that perfect lamb that was sacrificed for you and i well uh don't forget uh the website for valley baptist church in hagertown could you uh repeat that one more time brother yeah so please go definitely go to facebook right now i'm i'm not sure if our website is currently up right now so go to facebook check out valley baptist church in hagerman idaho it's a southern idaho uh city um if you live in the area i would really encourage you to come worship with us if you don't have a biblical church that you're already a part of uh look me up on reformed ex -mormon go buy your tickets through openairtheology .com