Aug. 14, 2015 Show with Mark Tooley on “Taking Back the United Methodist Church” & Andrew Rappaport on “What Do They Believe?: A Systematic Theology of the Major Western Religions”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another. Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions. Now here's our host, Chris.

Arntzen. Good afternoon Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Friday.

And today is August 14, 2015, and I'm really excited to have two new guests on Iron Sharpens Iron today to start off your weekend. Two guests that I have never interviewed before and who were both highly recommended to me.

First of all, I'd like to introduce to you Mark Tooley, who is the president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D .C. Mark worked for eight years for the Central Intelligence Agency, the CIA, and he is a graduate of Georgetown University and is a native of Arlington, Virginia.

A lifelong United Methodist, he has been active in United Methodist renewal since 1988 when he wrote a study about denominational funding of pro-Marxist groups for his local congregation. He attends the United Methodist Church in Alexandria, Virginia, and Mark Tooley became the president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy, known as IRD, in 2009.

He joined the IRD in 1994 to found its United Methodist Committee, and he is the author of the book that we are discussing today, Taking Back the United Methodist Church. We are also going to be giving away for the first four listeners who write in with a question that's good enough to be read on air that's relevant to the topic, a copy of his previous book, or actually should I say his newest book, Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century, and his articles about the political witness of America's churches have appeared in the Wall Street Journal, the American Spectator, First Things, Patheos, World, World Magazine, Christianity Today, the Weekly Standard, National Review Online, the Washington Examiner, Human Events, the Washington Times, the Review of Faith and International Affairs, Touchstone, the Chicago Tribune, and the New York Post and elsewhere.

He is a frequent commentator on radio and television, and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to Iron Sharpens Iron, Mark Tooley. Mark, can you hear us?

Yes, I can. Thank you for your gracious introduction, and I'm honored to be with you.

Well, it's an honor to have you, and I'm sure my guests are very, are going to be very thrilled that you came on. I've been hearing nothing but good things about you from those who recommended you, and I'm excited about the broadcast.

In fact, I interviewed one of your colleagues yesterday, Chelson Vacari, and what a.

Brilliant young lady she is. She is. She is a wonderful book. You'll be hearing much more about Chelson in the future. Yes, her book Distortion, how the new.

Christian left is twisting the gospel and damaging the faith. You'll eventually be able to hear that broadcast on the archive of Iron Sharpens Iron, and that should be there along with Mark Tooley's interview in about a week or two.

And first of all, give our listeners a little background about the Institute on.

Religion and Democracy. Well, we were founded in 1981 in the midst of the Cold War, when amazingly influential to now in theology. The church, of course, is not primarily, but it does speak politically.

It should speak on behalf. Great. Well, I'm.

A bit afraid to ask this question, but what did you do with the CIA? What was.

Your role? Since I left and was covering... Have been described in your bio as a.

Lifelong United Methodist. Was the church of your upbringing more of a Bible believing, evangelical, or conservative congregation that most of us today are familiar with in the United Methodist Church?

Obviously, a lot of that depends on where in the country you live, but tell us something about your.

Upbringing. Well, my church was in a Virginia suburb outside Washington, D .C., Methodist, in that it was not in theological terms conservative, although I think clergy we had while I was growing up, we had more of a Methodist church.

Really, it.

Would be that high a percentage that would have more of an evangelical or conservative membership to it? In other words, there would be more of a mixture.

In at least 80 of them, you're saying? I would say so. What polls or surveys have been done have shown that lay people and the clergy are not determined by the laity, and so you may have a church where 70 of the...

I'd like to give our email.

Address now, if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for our guest, Mark Tooley, who was the author of Taking Back the United Methodist Church, the book we are addressing today. Our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com, c-h-r-i-s-a-r-n-z-e-n at gmail .com, and please include at least your first name and your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you're outside of the USA, but we can only offer the free books to those living within the United States.

The sponsor that we have that mails out these free books is mailing out quite a number of them, and they cannot have overseas shipping costs mount up or even shipping costs to Canada. It can be quite costly, so we apologize to those of you living in Canada and overseas, but we cannot ship you free books, but we do welcome your emails with questions for our guest, Mark Tooley.

Chrisarnson at gmail .com. We actually have a listener right now in Tavarus, Florida. We have Dr. Richard Williamson, and his question is, it has been my experience over 48 years as a United Methodist pastor that the evangelical leadership and organizations within the denominations are extremely reluctant to effectively confront the hierarchy.

How do we get these leaders and organizations to be more effective, and what suggestions would you have for individual congregations and clergy to act if our evangelical leadership will.

Not? That's a very good question. Well, I'm sure there has always been for decades a trajectory in the denomination, dating back to the late 1960s, started by a group called Good News, and beliefs and convictions in the denomination, and successful in that folks are not as aggressive.

In fact, evangelicals have gained a lot of ground and have a lot more of the big monster issue. Well, those.

Of us who know a bit about church history, we know that John Wesley, the 18th century revival preacher, is known as the founder of Methodism. How far after, or how long after, Pastor Wesley or Reverend Wesley founded the Methodist Church, did you see historically liberalism starting to get a foothold?

Well, I'm sure there were bits of it around in the American church by the mid -19th century, but in terms of the old 90s, it really was the 20s. Most Methodist churches, so what had happened to them? And was this just a part of the plague that.

Really started to overcome denominations across the board, which gave rise to the.

Fundamentalist modernist controversy in the earlier 20th century? Yes, as you know, all the seminaries of the largest mainline. Now, would you say that this.

Liberalism that has crept in to the United Methodist Church, do you think that it had something to do with people identifying themselves as Christian who believe, and of course since I'm a conservative I think wrongly believe, that liberalism more clearly demonstrates the attributes of Jesus Christ, such as meekness, compassion, tenderness, forgiveness, caring for the underdog, the poor, the needy, the outcast, that kind of thing.

Could that be one of the reasons why liberalism took a foothold in the Methodist Church? Yes,.

That's very true, but also more largely those in Methodist academia and elsewhere, and also secular act of the effect. Now, when the denomination.

The United Methodist Church, when it came into existence as a denomination, in fact if you could tell us when that happened, was that already a denomination that was infiltrated with liberalism, and how much of that denomination was affected by the higher criticisms of the 19th century and so on?

Well, of course Methodism was.

Originally a renewal movement within the Church of England led by John Wesley, and Wesley never wanted to become after the American Revolution, the new United States Society was founded after John Wesley.

And when did you, when do you think about.

What period of time in our history do you believe the United Methodist Church.

And its clergy and seminaries became very dominated by liberalism? And the.

Other groups that we know of, the primitive Methodists, the evangelical Methodists, the Nazarene, the Wesleyan churches, were they all, did they all break away from the United Methodist Church because of the liberalism, or were.

They always separate streams from the Wesleyan history? The free Methodists and the Wesleyans broke off in the early to mid -19th century in disputes somewhat related to slavery, but also to the Nazarene.

And you growing up in this.

Denomination, the United Methodist Church, when did you realize that there was something that was very alarming to you? That there was something very unbiblical or foreign to Christianity from a historical and biblical perspective that really made you feel like you perhaps are a foreigner, if you will, living in a foreign land and, you know, where you felt even the need to write.

The book taking back the United Methodist Church? Well, I probably noticed the late 1980s, and now that we are in the 21st century, how far.

Steeped in liberalism are we speaking about? I'm assuming you are talking about full-fledged support of same-sex marriage, homosexuality as being compatible with Christianity, abortion, and so on. Am I right that that would be the the dominant thought amongst those who are in the upper echelon, if you.

Will, of the academic and clergy arena? For the liberal United Methodist Church and the 1970s, even among liberal elites within the church. We do have another listener.

Who has written us a question. Ted from Tuscaloosa, Alabama says, I've noticed in recent years that Bishop William Willimon, I don't know if I'm mispronouncing that, Willimon, he may be a former bishop now, has been quite popular with many evangelical leaders who are normally quite critical of the United Methodist Church.

How influential has Bishop Willimon been with the denomination at large, and specifically, how influential has he been with the more conservative evangelical wing of the denomination? That's Ted in Tuscaloosa,.

Alabama. Well, he's not just in Methodism, but has a much wider audience. He was for years, where he also was eight years. We do have another listener in Fort Myers,.

Florida. We have Mike, who says, Hello, Mark. I'm wondering if you had attended or are familiar with the United Methodist Conference that had convened a few years ago in Tampa, Florida, a church divided in order to discuss whether or not the practice of homosexuality is compatible with Christian teaching.

What is your sense of where the United Methodist Church is heading since that convention? Are you familiar with that one in Tampa that our listener is referring to?

We have a listener in Nassau County, Long Island, New York,.

Susan, who asks, What power does each local congregation have to have welcomed a new minister into the pulpit that is more according to their own beliefs? In other words, can a conservative United Methodist Church make sure that a new minister that takes over the pastorate is reflective of their.

Evangelicalism and so on? A very good question. Well, the bishops have the authority to meet with that. You've already spoken about the United.

Methodist support for Marxists and so on. What about the climate today in this very dangerous world of terrorism that we know of? Obviously there wouldn't be something that you would necessarily know about extreme illegal support of terrorism, but what can you say about the United Methodist Church's denomination.

As a denomination in response to Islamic terrorism? Well, the good news is that the New York-based News in the Eighties has undergone a transformative evangelism perspective and has largely become, by and large, it still is very naive and utopian, a war that remedies to almost...

I remember years ago I arranged a radio.

Debate between a well-known evangelical conservative theologian and a United Methodist professor at a United Methodist College. He was actually a professor of medical ethics and he was pro-abortion and when he was debating, my friend who I arranged this debate for, my theologian friend, when he asked the United Methodist professor during the radio debate a simple question, he said, do you believe in God?

And he said, I refuse to answer a question on my personal religious beliefs. And when my friend pressed him, he actually said, the United Methodist professor said, go to hell and hung up. Amazing. How prevalent would the abortion rights activism be amongst those in not only the medical field, but the academic field in the United Methodist Church?

In.

Terms of Methodist seminaries, it's much more lobbying. We're going to be going to a.

Break right now. If you have any questions for our guest, Mark Tooley, please email them to chrisarnson at gmail .com, chrisarnson at gmail .com, and when you email your questions, please include your first name, city and state of residence, and country of residence if outside the USA, and we look forward to hearing from you and your questions for Mark Tooley on taking back the United Methodist Church right after these messages, so don't go away.

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If you've just tuned us in, we are interviewing today Mark Tooley, who is the president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D .C., and we are addressing his book, Taking Back the United Methodist Church.

If you have a question for him, you can email us at chrisarnzen at gmail .com. Chrisarnzen at gmail .com. And we do have a question for Mark from Robert in New York, New York. He asks, what are the basic minimum required beliefs that a United Methodist minister must believe.

Today to be ordained? Now, that's a very good question. When they are ordained, they do pledge time as the meaning. Yeah, I had a conversation years ago with an.

Evangelical United Methodist who told me that he had had conversations with United Methodist clergy who were atheists. Now, was that an.

Exaggeration or is that possible? Well, we have over 40 ,000 clergy in the U .S., so it's very likely. What do you believe? I mean, some of this may be just an.

Assumption on your part, or maybe you've actually heard detailed explanations for this, but what is the reason? Because I've discussed this with evangelical friends and colleagues and so on. What is the reason that someone who is a liberal, who really publicly identifies themselves at odds with much, if not most, of the morality spoken of in the Scripture, who doesn't even believe that the Scriptures are inerrant, who doesn't even believe in the teachings of John Wesley or in the Wesleyan movement or the Methodist movement from history, why on earth do they continue to identify as Christians?

Why do they seek ordination in Christian denominations? Why do they continue to operate as churches and so.

On? What do you think the reason is behind this? Well, a dedicated few are... We have another.

Susan, this time in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, who asks, do you really think that taking back the United Methodist Church, as your title indicates, is even remotely possible? Why would you not either flee from this liberal denomination that teaches such horrible and unbiblical things and either join an existing evangelical body or start a new denomination of your own?

Why would you remain faithful to this? Is it just sentimentalism? That's a good.

Hard-hitting series of questions. Do you have an answer for those? It is. We'll walk away. If you keep walking away, you're going to keep losing. United Methodism, uniquely among almost all denominations...

Let me repeat our email address. We've only got.

About 20 minutes left. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question, it's chrisarnson at gmail .com. Chrisarnson at gmail .com. Bruce from Suffolk County, Long Island asks, I know that your more recent book is on Methodism and politics in the 20th century.

Was there a major contribution to the conservative political arena from the United Methodist Church that you write of? It's.

Hard to think of an example in the last 100 years because the left has dominated the political witness of Methodism for most of the last... and it all dates back...

And so the majority of your book, the later book that I have not yet read, this would be more addressing the liberal influence that the Methodists.

Have had in the political arena in the 20th century? Essentially, yes. How they... Now the scriptures warn us to avoid the appearance of evil. How do you feel when.

You are very routinely hearing things on the news, in newspapers, magazines, television, radio, internet, that you know that thousands and perhaps millions of people are hearing about, that are equating some of the extreme liberal ideologies on this globe with activism from your own denomination?

And how do you... How do you basically maintain an identity as an evangelical or a conservative, and while at the same time being clearly having perhaps the appearance of evil in the minds of many who, when they hear about your affiliation with the United Methodist Church and don't look much deeper than that, may assume that you agree with these extreme liberal ideas that are coming from the seminaries and pulpits of the United Methodist Church?

Well, it's.

Difficult, and it's a struggle of any genuine believer of any mainline denomination. The media pays in recent years as they continue to recede in numbers, and Methodism is mentioned in the media when there's a local minister and his liberal mainline denomination.

So in that, Methodism... Really? So what.

Would be the restrictions regarding someone's sexual activity in the ministry in the United Methodist Church? Can someone be an openly homosexual, active homosexual in the United Methodist Church, whether married or single?

I mean, it's bizarre to even say that. When I say married, I mean to somebody of the same gender. But what are the restrictions involved there?

Officially, the church affirms sex only between husband and wife, and clergy...

Yeah, that is interesting how they would be so liberal in many other areas and openly. And yet I did hear about, in the news, about a, I believe it was a United Methodist pastor who received some kind of temporary penalty for marrying his own son to another man.

Do you know what I'm speaking of?

There was a same man he had married, and he was defrocked, and then a higher church reinstated him on a technicality, but he'd already been sort of small. So this was really no serious.

Penalty, really, for something so abominable in the sight of God and in the Scriptures. How long do you envision before the United Methodist Church just collapses on that, or do you have more of a post-millennial outlook that things.

Are going to get much better from here on out? I don't think it's going to be a collapse. I mean, it is growing. It is 7 million in the U .S., and then almost 6 million in 8 or 9 years in direction. So my hope is it happens soon.

And what about the issue that has become the discussion of many water-cooler conversations and other coffee-clutch discussions all over the United States and other parts of the world, the infamous Bruce Jenner gender transformation?

What is the United Methodist Church's, and obviously there's going to be varied, varied views amongst members and clergy, but what is the official position, if any, on someone, especially in the clergy, having a gender.

Orientation surgery, however you want to phrase that? Well, officially the Church has no specific change or clergy, having undergone, there's one other Methodist ministry, people had even no LGBTQ agenda, very much include trans, to my knowledge.

And what would be the restrictions, if any, on a conservative,.

Bible-believing, evangelical, United Methodist congregation and or its pastor on conducting church discipline and perhaps even excommunication of someone because they were unrepentant in their homosexual activity, or getting gender reassignment surgery, or getting an abortion, etc., etc.?

Is there any restriction on a pastor's discernment, who is a Bible-believing United Methodist and the congregation that would follow suit with him in wanting to discipline.

Such a person who is not repentant of their sin? There is not any, you can theoretically file a complaint, church membership, and some years ago, when a Virginia pastor refused to give immediate membership to it and say no, he had to be ratified by the local...

And when you say taking back the United.

Methodist Church, what practical challenges and steps and counsel do you offer to the Bible-believing, evangelical, born-again, conservative, United Methodist person who is either a clergy person or a member of the congregation to take back this denomination from the clutches of liberalism?

First of all, to be.

Faithful where they are and to continue on with the work of evangelism and beyond the local church, Methodist beliefs, and about what is happening beyond local church. We have Stephan, or Stephen, in Carlisle, Pennsylvania asking, how can you.

As a Bible-believing Christian support financially organizations that you believe are conducting the work of Satan when you're speaking of some of the more.

Extreme forms of liberal activity? Well, it's always a hard balance to make, but I would submit that it's everywhere in every church, even the most sin, sort them out, sort them out ourselves, let's recreate them, then purify the denomination as long as...

Is anybody in the United Methodist Church, well I'm sure that's probably too broad of a question is anybody, but is a significant or a significant number of people alarmed enough to see that liberal mainline churches are radically reducing numerically in membership all over the United States?

And do they see where this agenda that they have is really creating a sinking ship? The churches that are really growing in the United States and across the globe are typically not from this rehashing of mainline liberal Marxism and so on.

Yes, the decline has been for an American in the West, their argument. They try a large following if you're presenting the... Your colleague Chelsen Vacari was.

Talking about her enthusiasm over the return of conservatism and biblical faith with young people, with the millennials if you will. Is that happening in any significant way in the United Methodist denomination where you have young people returning perhaps to the roots of the Methodist movement and to.

The Bible itself? That's a mixed in America, like all the other mainline denominations under 40. Millennial Methodists are... Do you see any rising.

Stars and perhaps that's a bad choice of terminology, but young or not necessarily even young, but men in the pulpit who are becoming more well known for vigorous defense of biblical orthodoxy and who are bold voices for the Methodist truths of old, going back to the the circuit preachers and so on, the Wesleyan movement.

Are there any individuals that we should look for in either the media or in writing who are championing the true teachings of historic Methodism and more importantly the teachings of Jesus Christ? I wish I.

Could say that. There certainly are many, many faithful United Methodist clergy who don't seek a lot of celebrity social media and by and large are only known to their local... Because I think the clergy within Methodism have a larger duty and obligation to share the Wesleyan message.

For example, when I look at Christian teachers, it tends to be dominated by the reform social media and not just United Methodist, but the wider... Well I'd like you to in the next two.

Minutes. Just unburden your heart with what you most want our listeners to have.

Etched in their hearts and minds when they leave the program today, Mark. Well if they happen to be United Methodist, I hope they remain in it better now and that you will pray for that denomination, not just globally, but...

I want to repeat Mark's website for the.

Institute on Religion and Democracy. It's theIRD .org. That's T-H-E-I-R-D .org. Very easy to remember. And don't forget about Mark's latest book that he has written, which is Methodism and Politics in the 20th Century.

And we look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron in the near future, Mark Tooley. It's been an honor and a joy and a privilege to have you as a part of the Institute on Religion and Democracy.

Thank you very much. And we thank everybody who wrote our listener questions today. And those of you who are the first four will be getting a free copy of Mark Tooley's book. And don't go away, because the next hour we are going to have on our program Andrew Rappaport and we're going to be discussing a systematic theology of the major world religions.

So don't go away, we'll be right back with Andrew Rappaport of Striving for Eternity Ministry. Don't go away, we'll be right back here on Iron.

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Nearly two and a half million Christians count on Thriven to help them protect their families and strengthen the communities where they live, work, and worship. To learn more about what makes Thriven unique, contact me at 717 -254 -6433.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and today we are beginning our second hour with an examination of world religions with our guest Andrew Rapoport. Andrew Rapoport is the founder and president of Striving for Eternity Ministries, established Spread the Fire evangelism training and outreach events, most notably New Jersey Fire and NorCal Fire, and he is the instructor for the Striving for Eternity Academy, an online school that teaches hermeneutics and systematic theology.

Andrew is the author of the book What Do They Believe, which is a systematic theology of the major Western religions, and that is our subject today. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome you to Iron Sharpens Iron for the very first time, Andrew Rapoport.

Well, thank you very much for having me, Chris. Well, first of all, let's hear something about your background. Andrew, I understand that you are a Jewish believer? That is correct, yes. And so tell us something about your upbringing as a child and how you eventually came to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his word.

Well, my.

Father was told that they had to remember, and I thought my Judaism would save me. So what ended up happening, you know, he said something that's really not probably the best thing to say. He knew my mother died when I was young, and I was able to, I rejected the ones that I told, and I got to a point where I said, this is beyond power.

I had to give all the rationale for it. I never read Josh McDowell, and yet I had every one of the false views of the Holy Body out that way. Andrew, they didn't have heavy accounts.

I don't know if I should be laughing at heresy like that, but I can't help it.

You know, that was it. I couldn't argue against the resurrection. Well, I believe in a.

Sovereign God, and He can transform anyone and save anyone from the world, the flesh, and the devil, and the penalty thereof, whenever He chooses to, and however He chooses to. And there are all different types of, although the gospel is always the same, and the technical aspects of what the Bible teaches about how God has saved sinners is always the same, but the circumstances surrounding each individual's life may vary widely, and we are thankful that God has chosen you, and He has brought you to new life in Christ.

And was there a harsh negative response from your family as a result of this conversion?

Yeah, my mother, when she had...my parents found out actually two years later. I was so fearful. I did not. I had, two, three years ago now, two times I've ever been hit or beaten for the gospel. How old were you when they were beating you?

My mother hit me.

Wow, that is something. And do you have siblings that Is the faith or religion, if any, of siblings, if you have them? Not really practicing.

I have two older brothers, two younger sisters, and most of them are not practicing. Some of them are, I think, more practice people. If you're going to have your children, you usually have to leave the synagogue.

Now, with that, you have I was raised, we used to have to go not only two times a week, but a couple of years, probably more on the... And it always amazes me how very often, it.

Seems the typical reaction to Jewish families, when someone converts to Christianity or becomes a Christian, the reaction is far greater than if they had become involved in Buddhist meditation, or if they had become an atheist,

Doesn't really seem to have anything to do with a rejection of the God of the Bible that they cherish, the Torah and so on. It's more...or that they claim to cherish, I should say. It's more of just a traditional and cultural reaction to someone as being a traitor to someone's heritage.

Am I right on that? Yeah, I.

Have often said that I think my parents would have had an easier time with me coming out and saying I'm a homosexual or a drug addict than saying I'm a Christian. Wow. They receive...we have someone who practices...then they receive me being a Christian.

A cultural concept within Judaism of a tradition that, regardless whether you actually...you never turn away...drilled into that Jewish people. The mindset is to make sure you drill that into the next generation.

She's lining all of us up, you know, along a wall, and she made a machine gun sound, and, you know, holding her hand like a machine. Obviously, it stayed in my brain.

Wow. And the thing that we must remember when we...in our day and age in the 21st century, and for quite a while, when we think of racism and bigotry, we typically only focus on that which is believed and committed and perpetrated by white Anglo-Saxon Protestants or Caucasians in general who are Gentile.

And we don't really recognize the fact that racism and bigotry is a universal sin. As my friend...I brought this up many times on my program, but I have a friend who's now in heaven, Dr. Robert J. Cameron, who is a black Presbyterian minister and very well known for his conservatism and biblical orthodoxy.

But he wrote a book on racism, and he said racism is a sin problem, not a skin problem. And he wrote in his book that the black race is just as guilty of the sin of racism as what the whites are, and that would go in line with Jewish folks.