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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James White director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

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If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now at 602 973 4602 or toll -free across the

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United States. It's 1 -877 -753 -3341 And now with today's topic here is

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James White If someone told me when I first started studying Mormonism back in the 1982

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That someday I would be sitting Well 30 years later more than 30 years later

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Reviewing a talk Delivered in the Erdman's bookstore. Yeah, the

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Erdman's bookstore in I believe Grand Rapids Featuring not only a professor from Brigham Young University, but the president of an ostensibly

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Evangelical seminary of course fuller standing as an evangelical seminary has been up for grabs for quite some time

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Just ask Mel White and a few other people like that But be that as it may If someone told me that I would be reviewing a talk they had given where in essence

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The primary apologist For Mormonism was the evangelical seminary professor.

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I would have said you're crazy You're crazy But Unfortunately, that's exactly what we're doing here today on the dividing line

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And I'm hoping that we have our old cassette tape running because we're having some technical difficulties

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And hopefully you will be patient with us Hopefully we won't have to rerecord it via the tape

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But we've had to do that in the past and I would want to make sure that we would do that Because I think this could be a very important program

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We often speak of the degradation of evangelicalism on many fronts but I think this is an example of the degradation of evangelicalism that simply cannot be denied and It is the degradation on the level of discernment simple basic Discernment what

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I'm referring to is the recording of a little over an hour long

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Dialogue that took place at the Eerdmans bookstore Between Richard Mao and Robert Millett now, we all know these individuals.

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I Have commented on these individuals many times for by the way, we're not taking phone calls today So don't don't bother unless you are

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Richard Mao If you are Richard Mao, you can call in. We'll have a nice conversation and he might who knows

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Anyway the conversation Just an amazing thing, but we've got to start with a foundation and I think that's one of the problems today when

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I began studying Mormonism, I Recognized very early on that I needed to understand

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Mormonism from the Mormon perspective. I am so thankful to this very day the the older I get and the longer

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I'm involved apologetics I am so thankful. No one walked up to me and told me to do this in fact to be honest with you the prevailing opinion was

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I shouldn't do this, but I remember the first day I walked into an LDS bookstore and Why did

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I walk in an LDS bookstore because I had been reading every book I could buy at the Christian bookstore on Mormonism and I kept seeing the same

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Types of books the same titles being cited and I remember to this day teachings the

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Prophet Joseph Smith by Joseph feeling Smith Mormon doctrine by Bruce Armacanti articles of faith by James Talmadge a marvelous work and wonder by LeGrand Richards And of course the big huge journal of discourses documentary history the church things like this over and over again the same resources being cited over and over and over again and Nobody told me to do this

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No one suggested it to me But I came to the conclusion that if I'm going to talk to Mormons I need to understand how

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Mormons think and that means I need to hear this from the Mormons themselves I need to go to original sources.

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I Didn't know any apologists. I Didn't read a manual on apologetics. I didn't know what apologetics was

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But I started going to the LDS bookstore and I started buying books And somehow

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God kept me going because I didn't make much money back then and was newly married and and Yet he he provided away and It has always been my

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Desire and one of the reasons I I don't for example Engage certain subjects is because I know it would take forever

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To begin dealing with the original source material that I'd have to deal with to do it properly and That's why even after starting studying

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Islam I did not Begin debating Islamic subjects I was

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I would defend the Christian faith against Islamic objections But I did not start dealing with the Quran for years after I started studying

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Islam So that I could read the Quran in several translations start learning

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Arabic at least on a basic level Start getting a handle on the Hadith literature and and read books and have an understanding

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Today that's one of the problems that we're having with The mainstreaming of Mormonism there are evangelicals people who call themselves evangelicals anyways

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Richard Mao being one of the main people A group up in Salt Lake standing together another group that's been doing the same thing and these folks are directly and purposefully seeking to bring a certain kind of Mormonism to the attention of evangelicalism and Yet in the process they misrepresent the official teachings the

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LDS Church, and they do so with the willing assistance of rather liberal

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BYU professors They have come to conclusion that BYU is the leadership of the

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LDS Church not the general authorities not the prophet not not the first presidency not the Council of Twelve not the general authorities.

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No those those are fossils who are passing away and these folks minds. It's BYU now

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I do not for a second question the tremendous impact that BYU has on the future direction of the

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LDS Church and Where the LDS Church is going nobody really knows There's no question about that But the fact the matter is that it is possible to discern what

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LDS orthodoxy has been in the past without question and Unfortunately what you're having presented by Richard Mao and while he's a

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Christian scholar he's the president of a seminary we can trust what he has to say And and Millett's a he he seems like a nice guy,

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I mean even Erdman's published one of his books and when you Take their perspectives you will not understand

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When you're talking to a true believing Mormon from Utah you won't understand Why all of a sudden you're confused and why they believe things that you were told

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Mormons don't actually believe those things you see so We need to lay a foundation

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How do we know what Mormonism teaches well Mormonism has an expanded canon, but Mormonism historically

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Has always eschewed the idea of being limited by a canon of scriptural books in fact you can find many in the early church the early

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Mormon Church From the period of Joseph Smith. I would say all the way through to the middle of the last century mocking the idea of a closed canon mocking the idea of Limitation the big thing that Mormonism has been pushing from its beginning was continuing revelation latter -day revelation

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God continues to speak through the Apostles and Prophets and So the

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Doctrine and Covenants for example an open canon can be added to at any time at any time

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Book of Mormon latter -day revelation and In my thousands and thousands, and I am not exaggerating like some people who used to teach at Liberty University in my thousands of conversations with Mormon missionaries and other

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Mormons one of the most oft repeated emphasis emphases excuse me that I've heard is the vast superiority of Mormonism to Christianity because of latter -day revelation

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God is still speaking the heavens have not been closed and yet We are now being told that well things they be a change now

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I know things have been a changing in this sense if the number of Pedestrian Revelations and what

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I mean by a pedestrian revelation is look when Joseph Smith's alive almost everything becomes revelation section 114 of Doctrine and Covenants It is wisdom my servant

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David W Patton these subtle business as soon as he possibly can to make a disposition of his merchandise He may perform a mission as me and next spring and company with 12 with others even 12 including himself to proclaim my name and all the world so in other words just Sending a guy out on a mission becomes a section and section of the

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Doctrine Covenant That's what I mean by debt pedestrian every day if that had continued the

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Doctrine Covenants would be many many many many many volumes Large now it would be the size of the

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Journal of Discourses you couldn't carry it around You'd have to have to have a computerized version.

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You know That hasn't happened There are a couple after Joseph Smith, but not many so things changed.

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I recognize things have changed, but the reality is that I've taken the time.

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I wrote a book called is the Mormon my brother And I took the time to go through what the

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LDS leadership itself has said about what is Authoritative material for the

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Mormon Church and I even broke my presentation up into this is the most authoritative next most authoritative next most most authoritative and here's what the the

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LDS church leaders themselves have said and Unfortunately many many people today

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Just don't bother to do that now Let me give you just two pieces of background before we dive into listening to Richard Mowell and Robert Miller this is gonna take a while and In fact given

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I've already taken up almost 15 minutes. Well 11 minutes We're probably not gonna get done today.

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The conversation itself is like nearly an hour long I've cut the first maybe 15 minutes out or so First 10 minutes out and it's still an hour to go

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So yeah, we're not gonna we're not gonna get done today Even if we go jumbo, which probably we will we'll probably 90 minutes a day and continue this next week at some point

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Lord willing I I hold in my hand. I could have brought this stuff up I I could

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I have this quoted I can quote this stuff in my chat channel I've got scripts for it, but I decided to go to library and get my good old paper version

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I hold in my hands a student manual from the LDS Church called achieving a celestial marriage achieving a celestial marriage published by the

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Church of Jesus Christ of Latter -day Saints and interestingly enough

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The copyright is 1976 1992 by the corporation the president of the Church Jesus Christ Latter -day

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Saints all rights reserved printed in the United States of America At least it wasn't printed in China. I suppose that's a positive

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But if the copyrights 1976 in 1992 that means the essence of this book Was used as the student manual for every single

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Temple worthy Mormon that wanted to be sealed in the temple in the eternal marriage ceremony from 1976 to I believe 2001 25 years 25 years

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So here is the leadership of the Mormon Church the presidency of the

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Church of Jesus Christ Latter -day Saints the only body that has the authority to speak for Mormonism BYU professors my friends do not speak for the

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Mormon Church. They do not speak for the Mormon Church They may be priests

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They may have some position in the church but BYU is not the leadership of the church and When I speak on Mormonism one of the things that offended me so much

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And I will repeat it again and Richard Mao mentions in his talk that he does not apologize for this which means he refuses to apologize for having done what he did, but when he stood in the

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Mormon Tabernacle in 2004 and Apologized for what evangelicals had done to Mormonism I was deeply offended because I know so much more about Mormonism than Richard Mao will ever know

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You say oh, that's awful arrogant of you. No I actually Listen to the Mormons not just to one stream of Mormonism I don't just dismiss the leadership of the church as being folk

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Mormonism or temple Mormonism I've actually taken the time to do what he didn't do and Actually shows a whole lot more respect for Mormonism as a whole

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Than allowing a single or a couple BYU professors to determine Mormonism for you When he stood in front of that audience and apologized he wasn't speaking for me and I reject his ridiculous assertions

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Would love to debate him on this issue by the way he'd never do it. Well. I don't know I'll take that back he's actually sent me unsolicited emails on other issues, so Maybe he would

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It would be interesting. It would be a slaughter for the simple reason that I have all the documentation on my side as we will see he actually goes so far as to quote a

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Gordon Hinkley And a statement that the church itself said was taken out of context

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I addressed this in the second edition of his is more of my brother but he actually continues to quote this stuff as if it is a is demonstrative of the means by which you overthrow

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Volume after volume after volume of quotations that have produced by the LDS Church over the past hundred and seventy years anyways,

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I hold in my hand achieving a celestial marriage and I Begin all of my presentations on Mormonism by quoting two pages pages four and five it is titled celestial marriage key to man's destiny

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God was once a man who by obedience advanced to his present state of perfection through obedience and celestial marriage

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We may progress to the point where we become like God Proclaiming the divine potential within man

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John Taylor once wrote knowest thou not that thou art a spark of deity struck from the fire of His eternal blaze and brought forth in the midst of everlasting burnings elder bh roberts stayed man has descended from God In fact, he is the same race as the gods

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His descent has not been from a lower form of life But from the highest form of life in other words man is in the most literal sense a child of God This is not only true of the spirit of man, but of his body

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Also, can you see the implications of these two statements as they relate to you and to your eternal destiny elder

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James E Talmadge did he declared in his mortal condition man is God and embryo However, any individual now a mortal being may attain to the rank and sanctity of Godship That is a quotation from articles of faith page 529 articles faith is one of those books

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That is given to every LDS missionary before he goes on his mission It is not a canonical work of Scripture But it is about as close as you can get

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Given its utilization and citation by the church leadership itself. And again, this is the first presidency writing this material

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This is the first presidency providing this material to its own people for 25 years

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How is this possible? What course of action will bring this potential into fruition as you say this lesson look for the answers to these questions under points to Ponder God became

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God by obedience to law God became God by obedience to law.

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It was late afternoons. We sat in my office, but I felt the time of the well -spent He sat silently now obviously contemplating the ramifications of the things we had been discussing

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We had talked of God of how he'd become God and of what that meant in terms of our own exaltation finally he spoke

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Now, please notice something For 25 years the first presidency of the Mormon Church, which included

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Gordon B Hinckley seemed to recognize that our own exaltation and the exaltation of God To becoming

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God were related to one another as we will hear Millet and Mao wants you to think that that's just folk

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Mormonism. No, that's the real Mormonism What is this law of exaltation of which you keep speaking well

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It involves the whole the gospel law everything required of us by God is associated with this law But the major crowning point of the law which man must obey is eternal marriage

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Therein lies the keys of eternal life or as the Doctrine and Covenants puts it eternal lives in other words an eternal increase of posterity

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Now I don't have time to do this today But if you look up on the web the many times I've given this presentation in various places

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You'll discover That I will stop there and I will expand on the fact that this demonstrates that we need to understand

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Mormon ease versus Christian ease and their eternal lives versus our eternal life

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Very very very different concepts, even though we're using the same words. They mean different things We have to overcome the language barrier

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But I continue on then what you're saying is that God became God by obedience to the gospel program which culminates in eternal marriage

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Subpoint through obedience to law we can become like our Father in heaven Yes, do you realize the implications this doctrine as far as you are concerned

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I think so if God can become God by obedience to all the gospel law if I'm sorry if God became

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God By obedience to all the gospel law with the crowning point being the celestial law of marriage Then that's the only way I can become a

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God see the connection the only way I can become a God is the way God became a God and The lie you're gonna hear and I'm gonna call it a lie because I'm I am reading the official stuff here

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The lie you're gonna hear from Millett and Mao is that how we did, you know They don't really know much about how about the

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God part You know the the famous couplet from Lorenzo Snow as man is

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God once was and as God is man may become You know that that first part about God if we don't really don't know

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Yes, they do They've always known every mission. I've ever talked to except for a couple the really greeny guys that were just completely clueless

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Well knew exactly what they believe when I first started talking to Mormons the 12 year old boys were defending this stuff

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Don't tell me for a second. This is not what Mormonism is taught. That's a lie. It's a lie.

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Dr. Mao. You've been deceived Here that you're the most naive man who's ever walked the planet one of the two

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Yeah, possibly He didn't have the mic on so you didn't hear that. That's okay I'm right and it is the it is the law that assists us in reaching that potential

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It tells that what tells us what we must do to gain the ultimate freedom In fact, it is by obedience to the law that we have progressed to our present position

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You mean we have always been governed by law and then we have the short little paragraph the short little paragraph

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That I think is one of the most amazing paragraphs that I've ever read in LDS literature here it is listen carefully always

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You are an eternal being You were never created and you cannot be destroyed

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But you can advance progress and develop by obedience to law Listen to that You are an eternal being

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That's a lie out of hell God is the only eternal being Only God's eternal remember it's this is already said we are gods and embryo.

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We are the same species as God This is telling you you're just like God You were never created.

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You don't have a creator The most fundamental fundamental message of the entirety of the

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Bible is that God is our creator That's why he can tell us what to do That's why he can give us a law and the breaking of that law

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You need to have the sacrifice of Christ and the atonement, but Mormonism says no. No, no, no, no

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No, no, no, no. No, you don't have a creator You have a heavenly father he begat you with one of his many wives, but you don't have a creator

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In fact, the Mormon God can't create anything ex nihilo He can't create and he can't say let there be he can only organize

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Pre -existing matter you were never create and you cannot be destroyed Even though Jesus said fear him who can destroy your body and your soul in hell

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You can't be destroyed because you're just like God now

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I can go on from there. It talks about the centrality of Eternal marriage and it starts sounding like a science fiction story here here's listen listen is

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I Think so. I can be a god only if I act like God exactly, right?

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Can you imagine the state of the universe if imperfect gods were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space if?

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Beings who did not have law under their subjection were free to create worlds. I Guess I'd be pretty disastrous, but I'm not sure how

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I see that celestial marriage, etc. Etc. You hear that if imperfect gods Plural were allowed to spawn their imperfections throughout space.

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I didn't write it for 25 years Every single Mormon who was married in the temple was supposed to read those very words as the teachings of their own

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Church, I didn't write it Richard Mouse lying when he says that we're telling the

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Mormons what they believe. No, we're just reading what they believe They're teaching of their own people

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It's right there But we're gonna hear Is well that kind of teaching isn't canonical?

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What's the canon in Mormonism? Well, it's a book of Mormon doctrine comes for your prices and the

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King James Version really Really is that is that what

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Mormonism actually teaches? No, it's not and you know, it's not and there's one real obvious exception to that How about the temple ceremony?

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Are they not given by God any Orthodox Mormon will say yes they were and They are revelatory.

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They are now available on YouTube Yes, the temple ceremony is another not the temple ceremonies from the days of Brigham Young They're not even temple ceremonies from the days of Joseph Fielding Smith.

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They've been cut down and sanitized a bit But they would have to be completely

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Redone with no connection to their past to hide what they really teach and So I have

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The Mormon temple ceremonies here and I want you to listen This is only three minutes and 56 seconds into the endowment ceremony.

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So four minutes into the endowment ceremony the movie comes up and The very first thing you're taught the very first thing you see and what's supposed to be the house of the

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Lord a Sacred and secret place is a conversation that takes place a conversation between Elohim Jehovah and Michael is this just folk

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Mormonism. This was recorded within the past year

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I believe this is temple Mormonism Well now has now told us there are three kinds of Mormonism, I bet you didn't get to this part

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There are three kinds of Mormonism There's folk Mormonism where you believe that everyone's become a god and I get their own planet

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In other words the King follow funeral discourse and everything Mormonism is taught for 150 years then you have temple

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Mormonism and then you have redemptive Mormonism and Redemptive Mormonism is what we need to be encouraging.

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You see That's what we're being told. Well, I Want you to listen I've just read you what was used for 25 years to teach the

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LDS people their own beliefs and here is What is taught right now in LDS temples around this world

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This is what is being heard by faithful Mormons We're going through the endowment ceremony

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You ready? Here it is Jehovah Michael see order is matter unorganized go ye down and organize it into a world like into the other worlds that we have here before call your labors the first day and bring me word it shall be done come

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Michael let us go down here is matter unorganized first day it is well now what did you have there you have three different voices

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Elohim is God the father Jehovah is the son Jesus and Michael is well

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Michael and so Elohim sends Jehovah and Michael down to organize pre -existing matter in Isaiah 44 .24

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Jehovah says he did that all alone and by himself Mormonism is a polytheistic religion it has one being who is an exalted man from another planet lives on a planet circled with a star named

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Kolob according to the book of Abraham which for some reason didn't come up in the comments of Millet and Mao but because it's so embarrassing but anyway here you have this idea of an exalted man from another planet and his first begotten spirit child is

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Jehovah his Jesus and he sends him down in company with Michael and they organize pre -existing matter they cannot create the earth they have to organize it out of pre -existing matter that's what you need to understand now did

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I make that up? any honest Mormon who has gone through the temple ceremony will have to tell you yeah that's what happens that it's right there and I can continue on this is the whole creation sequence let's listen to a little bit more it shall be done come

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Michael and so there's all these pictures primarily from Hawaii I'm watching the video here all these pictures of volcanoes and then you know land coming out of the oceans and all this kind of stuff these are the days of creation this is

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Mormonism folks it's polytheistic it's anthropomorphic there isn't any question about these things and I haven't even read the

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King Follett funeral discourse yet I will but I haven't there is no question of what

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Mormonism teaches on these subjects in fact as Joseph Smith himself said it is the first principle of the gospel to know for certainty the character of God and that we may converse with him as one man converses with another yea that God himself the father of us all was once a man who dwelt on another planet that's the first principle of the gospel what you're going to hear is

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Robert Millet trying to tell us hey you guys have been doing this for 2000 years we've only been at it for 170 years cut us some slack let me tell you something and I think there are many

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Mormons who if they're not listening live like maybe

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Pierre is if they're not listening live they're going to hear this later on they're going to go doggone it he's right but there are many

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Mormons who listen to Robert Millet speak and go what on earth are you babbling about that is not what our prophet taught

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I cannot imagine Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or Orson Pratt or Orson Hyde or modern period

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I can never imagine Bruce R. McConkie or Joseph Fielding Smith talking with someone and going well you know you guys have been doing this religion thing for 2000 years we've only been at it for 150 cut us some slack

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I challenge you to read what these men said in the context in which it was said and you will never get the idea they would ever say anything like that at all

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I sure wouldn't want to be the guy saying this kind of stuff around Brigham Young oh no kidding not during the days of blood atonement yeah no question about it

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I've gone half an hour and I haven't started playing this thing yet but I've laid a foundation not only are there stacks and stacks and stacks of LDS books on the other side of the wall that I'm pointing at right now but I can guarantee you

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I've talked to far more Mormons than Richard Mow ever has and what you're about to hear just offended me it offended me to no end because it's just desperately dishonest and either either

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Richard Mow is incredibly dishonest himself or he's the most naive man that's ever walked the planet one of the two

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Aaron is Aaron on TweetDeck in Twitter has listened and watched the same video that I did he watched it

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I listened to it and one thing you're going to see thankfully there were some

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Christians there obviously there were a lot of Christians there but there were some knowledgeable Christians there some non -gullible

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Christians there from IRR and they asked great questions and of course

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Millet and Mow collapsed but since they were in control the guys from IRR couldn't exactly take over but he pointed out they just directly said

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Mormon Church doesn't teach the couplet of Lorenzo Snow anymore don't tell the folks at Battlestar Galactica they're really bummed out about that they don't teach the couplet anymore and the guys from IRR come back and go but it's taught in the 2013 manual as a divine revelation yeah but it's not emphasized it's just pure politics it's just amazing

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I can see why all they want are quote unquote dialogues they could never debate this stuff because they'd just be crushed by the weight of the evidence and of course their response is well that's why we don't want to be like that James White guy because he just wants to win a debate he's just a big meanie man you know why

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I'm a big meanie man? let me tell you why I'm a big meanie man because many many years ago

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I sat down with an LDS missionary on the west side of Phoenix I wasn't much older than he was we were probably pretty much the same age at the time but I started studying

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Mormonism and I rocked his world I asked him things he had never heard of before I showed him things he had never seen before and I could tell he really struggled with what

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I showed him years later it's amazing you want a miracle?

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people say you foreign folks don't believe in miracles I'll give you a miracle of course I think every single time a person's made a child of God it's a miracle but be that as it may

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I was in the middle this was around 2002 2002, 2003 somewhere around there and if you remember any of the videos

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I did back then I wasn't a small man then I was in my weight lifting period and I had had

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LASIK surgery done and I had these big Oakley sunglasses on I mean the big ones the big heater lens ones the big big big ones like a windshield and I was climbing

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Squaw Peak and it's a tough climb

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I want to get back over I haven't done it for ages but I've got those things on and I'm climbing

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Squaw Peak and as I'm going up this guy passes me going down and we look at each other now

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I don't look anything I'm bald with massive sunglasses on and weigh 60 pounds more than I did when

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I first talked to this guy as a missionary but we both stop and turn around and look at the other one and if people saw pictures of me as a youth and then there's no way when

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I show people pictures of when the night I asked my wife to marry me that isn't you that's all he had ever seen we look at each other and he goes

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James White? actually it's Jim White back then and I'm like yeah and I remembered who he was too so we got off the trail and we start talking and you know what because I didn't compromise because I didn't play games because I didn't do the well let's move you a little bit closer to monotheism type of a perspective because I proclaimed the gospel to him and warned him that following Mormonism would lead him to eternal destruction he was saved his wife is saved his kids are saved and they're out of the

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Mormon church and they're in a solid church serving Christ that's why

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I'm a big meany man because I can't find anywhere in the apostolic example where Paul or any of the apostles use the methodology that modern evangelicalism seems to think is going to work with Mormonism well you know if we can make this generation a little less polytheistic you know get them to use a little more

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Christian theology at least in terminology you know and then maybe the next generation we might be able to move a little bit toward monotheism or at least bi -theism or tri -theism and then the next generation maybe start trying to think of maybe some

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Trinitarianism and somewhere in there we can start actually talking about the gospel and maybe start getting rid of some temple ceremonies

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Paul said such were some of you, you used to worship gods that were in fact idols but you don't anymore not well you know you've moved a little bit closer, congratulations this movement of which

38:56

Mao is the poster child is one of the most damaging and disrespectful movement to Mormons out there, it's the amazing thing they're the ones that are thinking we're just so respectful we would never say anything mean about our

39:13

Mormon friends you know what if I go in to see my doctor and I've got prostate cancer

39:23

I need to know that and if he's so worried about how

39:28

I'm going to feel that he won't tell me that I could die it's a pretty stupid thing to define love the way the world does we don't want to offend anybody we don't want to offend anybody my goodness now to get through any of this obviously

39:52

I'm going to have to pick up the pace not only of my own speaking but to pick up the pace of what we're playing back and so I'm playing this back at 1 .2

40:00

on the playback speed so it will sound a little bit different but again it's just so that we can get through this in a meaningful period of time so the recording is not overly loud

40:13

I have it maxed out on my end and Rich will do his part on his end but this is from the

40:18

Eerdmans bookstore I'm picking up, I don't know, maybe four or five minutes maybe a little less into Mal's comments because the real interesting stuff was what

40:30

Millet said and then when the Christians in the audience started challenging this whitewashing of Mormonism Mal immediately jumped up to defend

40:42

Millet and to defend Mormonism and that's what's amazing and the arguments that he makes

40:49

I have refuted repeatedly in the presence of Mormons and would gladly do in his presence as well

40:54

Dr. Mal on the campus of Fuller Seminary Dr. Mal be happy to do it because I actually respect the

41:04

Mormon people enough to tell them the truth here's what they said Over the years we have looked at the doctrine of the trinity we've looked at the nature of God we've looked at what salvation is we've looked at our fallen the question of human beings in their fallen state we've talked about deification and it's been an amazing time together because I certainly, and I think all of us believe are things that Mormons believe

41:38

I don't know what Richard Mal thought Mormons believed I don't know what sources he used when

41:45

I tell you what Mormons believe it's because I've taken the time to dialogue with them and to read their scriptures and to read the writings of the prophets and apostles of the

41:55

LDS church who have written for our edification over the past 170 some odd years we still disagree about some serious issues but not as many disagreements as we thought we had at the outset all of this was off the record closed door we actually were very impressed by the fact that so the idea that ideological sort of line we discovered a very different kind of now who's he dialoguing with he's not dialoguing with general authorities, he's dialoguing with folks at BYU and they are going to have the widest manifestation of a range of beliefs because they are by necessity exposed to the very things that demonstrate that Joseph Smith was not a prophet of God Joseph Smith said a lot of really dumb things he really did the man was not the brightest candle on the shelf the stuff he says about Greek and Hebrew and German and stuff like that is absolutely ridiculous and in fact when you start looking at the

43:24

Egyptian alphabet and grammar and things like that it is just beyond ridiculous it is utterly indefensible the problem is once you've laid the foundation well

43:34

I'm not going to ever say anything that I'm going to offend you then you can't say those types of things anymore and that's a problem and those of us evangelicals,

43:43

I can still remember back in the 70's I was at Calhoun College and I was called by a dean of a major university in the east and I didn't even go to school they were going to have a symposium on campus on religion in America and they said you know we've never had and we'd like to include it would you come and be a part of this

44:07

I think that we've seen a

44:25

Mormon scholarship emerge and yet there are still people who would say are there any other smart ones maybe even are there any smart ones and so there's this

44:38

I don't understand now catch that the scholarly community within the larger community in other words we're dialoguing with the scholarly folks and you know the general authorities are just going to come they're just going to come trailing along behind because well all the general authorities come from BYU anyway so this is the real leadership and you need to start dealing with this not those old crusty guys and all the

45:14

Mormons that you actually end up talking to a little bit of tension with our own fellow Christians in our movement and yet the importance of really clarifying who we are and what we believe and any of those topics that was a very challenging question and candor now let me just stop right there no

47:50

Mormon bashing I know exactly what that means in the Mormon mind do not disagree with Mormonism because that's bashing now they can say that there's only one true church on earth and they can repeat

48:04

Joseph Smith's first vision testimony that all the Christian creeds are an abomination, their professors are corrupt and so on and so forth that's not bashing but anything that would say

48:14

Mormonism is not what it claims to be is quote unquote bashing and I'll comment on what

48:22

I would have said in just a moment now of course

49:59

I have documented the errors in Myles' understanding, I have documented the fact that many of us who he evidently just wanted to ignore have been involved in ministry to Mormons accurately representing what they believe and debating these issues against their leaders for many years before Myles ever showed up and so for him to walk into that situation and make that statement was absolutely absurd but he stands by it to this day

50:25

I've seen no evidence that Myles is open to any level of correction at all at all which is a true shame it was my little sharing and suffering for the cause but Robbie did a wonderful job yeah he's suffering for the cause because many of us have pointed out his errors yeah that's really suffering and he himself has never regretted what he did he saw it as a kind of breakthrough for his own sense we were with the head of the

51:01

General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God last week of the

51:09

Mormon Church and they had a wonderful time and we can get into some of the substance of this but I just wanted to give the background, how many times have we met now?

51:29

23 some of them a couple days at a time we we've been meeting at Fuller Seminary I just sort of wonder,

52:06

I just have to wonder um did they mention that Joseph Smith shot back?

52:12

he was murdered there's no question about the fact that he was murdered but did they mention that he shot back? that he was armed?

52:18

they keep forgetting that little point and I remember bringing that up during the little talk that they gave in the

52:27

Salt Lake actually it was in the Church History Building and that's when I was ushered out across the river there were a lot of good things that happened there and the next time, two years later we were talking about meeting and I said

52:41

I think we ought to go to Palmyra, New York so we went to Palmyra to the place where Joseph brought forth, as Mormons say, brought forth the

52:49

Book of Mormon, I like that phrase and we went to a number of Mormon sites the

52:55

Sacred Grove and then

53:01

Bob said to me, you know, we've been to two Mormon sacred places, we've got to go to an evangelical place I said, well unless you go to Geneva, Switzerland, I don't want to go any place we don't really have any sacred places.

53:16

We've been to the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton and ended up working together with Mormons.

55:03

I thought I'd share with you a couple of just after the book

55:14

Different Jesus, known as the

55:24

Salt Lake Theological Seminary, I love the seminary in Salt Lake they've been there several years and they wanted me to discuss the book and respond to questions and I spent a couple of hours with them and the questions were challenging and tough but good and finally, at the very end one of their numbers said

55:46

Bob, here's the final question I said, okay he said, what can we evangelicals do for our

55:56

Mormon friends I said, I don't think I've ever been asked that before. He said, now what can we do for you?

56:02

I thought it was a wonderful question I said, well, cut us a little slack and give us a little time he said, say more and I said, you know, similar to what

56:16

Mitch said I've been at this religion making business for 2 ,000 years we've been at it for 170 we're just now trying to feel our way toward understanding our own faith, much less that of others and so be a little patient with us if we don't always come forward with an answer that is completely intelligible be a little patient we're working at it again, absolutely fascinating we're working at it who's we?

56:49

the staff at BYU we're working we'll get these general authorities that are so dogmatic this is why people like Bruce R.

57:00

McConkie their memory is almost spat upon by the modern

57:07

BYU crowd is this is not what he believed this is not what Mormons believed and I started witnessing that the first missionaries

57:15

I talked to this is not what they believed when

57:21

I sat down with those young men they had a testimony of the truth they weren't sitting there going well, you know you're going to be able to ask us a lot of questions we're not going to be able to give you a coherent answer on because you've had 2 ,000 years just to figure this stuff out and we've only had back then 170 actually back then 150 years to be working on this stuff and even since Joseph Smith even less than that that's not what they said and that's not what you'll read in Teachings of the

57:56

Prophet Joseph Smith that's not what you're going to read from Brigham Young or David O. McKay or any of these folks up until the modern

58:06

BYU period you're just not going to read it, it's just not there see

58:11

I hear a guy saying give me some more time because we haven't dumbed down enough generations of Mormons yet to get rid of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young when you started this when

58:23

I came along a few years later we would go out to Mesa we'd go to Salt Lake City and you'd have a 12 year old kid sitting there and we'd be envious of how much this kid knew about his religion and wished that our kids had that much interest these kids could take us around the block and back on any given subject at least on the

58:45

Mormons they knew their Mormonism and we would open up our Bibles because we could sit there and tell them your church teaches this, right?

58:53

they knew we were on target we didn't have to carry a library with us to convince those kids what they believed they already believed it but now we gotta be like we're really not sure remember let me contrast

59:10

Robert Millet Erdman's author by the way with Joseph Smith himself do you think

59:18

Joseph Smith is fair game? I think so I think it's appropriate to to quote him because I think that it's, you know well, here

59:34

God himself was once as we are now and is an exalted man and sits enthroned in yonder heavens, that is the great secret if the veil were rent today and the great

59:42

God who holds the world in its orbit and who upholds all things, all worlds and all things by his power was to make himself visible

59:48

I say if you were to see him today you would see him like a man in form, like yourselves and all the person, image and very form as a man for Adam was created in the very fashion image and likeness of God and received instruction from and walked, talked and conversed with him as one man converses with another in order to understand the subject of the dead now this is from the

01:00:09

King Follett funeral discourses this is one of the very last utterances of Joseph Smith before his death in 1844 only a month beforehand and by the way

01:00:20

I've checked this out and you can do this rather easily all you need is the gospel link computer program or a subscription to the website the

01:00:28

King Follett funeral discourse is the single most often cited utterance of Joseph Smith by the leaders of the

01:00:37

LDS church over the past 170 years nothing else has been cited as often as what he said in this if you say this is folk

01:00:45

Mormonism you've got an agenda this is Mormonism and any

01:00:52

Mormon who's been to the temple ceremonies knows it and knows that anybody saying otherwise is a liar they know it in order to understand the subject of the dead for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so for I am going to tell you how

01:01:12

God came to be God we have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity

01:01:18

I will refute that idea and take away the veil so that you may see it doesn't sound like a guy who's going I don't know really you know we're going to work on it we've got some insights but you know this isn't the wishy -washy millet this is

01:01:35

Joseph Smith in fact listen to this these are incomprehensible ideas to some but they are simple it is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God I stop here how can this be?

01:01:55

to know for a certainty? I thought this was all speculation no it is the first principle of the gospel to know for a certainty the character of God and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another and that he was once a man like us that God himself the father of us all dwelt on earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did and I will show it from the

01:02:15

Bible that's Joseph Smith compare that with Dr.

01:02:23

Millet very very very different perspectives being presented and as Rich suggested the development of a of an academic community is not a a speedy process but it's coming among the more interesting things we did during those years in 2005 well in fact what happened in the year 2004

01:02:54

I had heard about a conference that was being held an academic conference held at the library of congress in DC on Jonathan Edwards and it caused me to think and I was asked to serve on a church wide committee to discuss how to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith's birth that would be in 2005 and in the first meeting

01:03:32

I said to the man in charge he was one of the Mormon apostles I said why don't we have it at the library of congress he laughed and said yes sir

01:03:39

I said no why don't we have it at the library of congress I said well let me tell you what I've seen recently we made one phone call really and the response was of course that would be a wonderful thing to do so in 2005 we held a conference at the library of congress

01:03:55

Richard spoke of course Randy Balmer who was then at Columbia and now at Dartmouth but he spoke

01:04:08

Jerry McDermott who's at Jerry spoke we had a large number of Latter Day Saint speakers one of our friends who's at Durham University in England spoke and so forth it was a very interesting occasion those settings have proven to be extremely helpful in bringing before the public we were it was a meeting of the

01:04:58

American Academy of Religion we're still down here in Atlanta we asked Richard Bushman LDS historian at Columbia to come and discuss his upcoming book on the biography of Joseph Smith and I remember very well beginning the meeting his opening lines is

01:05:20

Joseph Smith an impossibility for you? is this an impossibility for you?

01:05:31

yes by the way I just wanted to answer the question yes Joseph Smith is an impossibility for me because I've read too much of Joseph Smith there's too much evidence absolutely impossibility yeah you bet not a prophet not even close and someone said well no not an impossibility well it was enough of a it was enough of a stimulation that took place and that's where Mitch decided at our next meeting to give a presentation on the possibility of a

01:05:57

Joseph Smith and asked some very hard questions one of which I thought was fascinating was I think you told the story of Cotton Mather reporting his vision of an angel it sounded very much like Joseph Smith it sounded very much like my bed now did you catch that?

01:06:14

that's Mal. Oh yeah Cotton Mather's vision of an angel sounded just like Joseph Smith really? really did he was

01:06:23

Cotton Mather involved in necromancy and digging for treasure and was

01:06:32

Cotton Mather did he actually end up the later story being a vision of God the

01:06:38

Father and Jesus Christ as seven distinct individuals while he's being told that all churches are corrupt is that the parallel?

01:06:45

Oh no it's just Moroni well was it Nephi or Moroni because as you know the thing keeps getting changed on that as to which one it was but was this angel telling

01:06:54

Cotton Mather about an entire civilization that never existed about Nephites and Lamanites and stuff like that the

01:07:03

Hill Cumorah you know which supposedly got all these dead people buried in it no yeah well not really and so it presents it presented these kinds of similarities and so how impossible might it be or you were asking a more pertinent question which is is there an alternative than he's either a liar or a lunatic so we've had some challenging and some wonderful conversations through the years

01:07:33

I think I ought to say something about Rabbi Zacharias to his credit in the November Rich mentioned the meeting was held in November but prior to that there was a lot of preparation

01:07:44

I myself and Baptist pastor friend who's a good friend of Rabbi flew out to Atlanta to meet with Rabbi and I knew that one of the things

01:07:53

I had to say to him was can I just ask you not to bash us while you're there but I was very nervous about doing that we get there we have a good conversation

01:08:02

Rabbi talks about how excited he is to be coming and before I could open my mouth he said now Bob I want you to know something he said

01:08:08

I want you to know that I consider this to be one of the most significant invitations I've ever received and I would never do anything to dishonor that invitation you're safe with me and I thought it was not only a gentlemanly thing to do but frankly a

01:08:24

Christian thing to do and it was a great evening and it showed what

01:08:31

Rich is made of having to do with all those nasty emails yeah all those nasty emails he suffered so much but I could never put myself in a position where I would not be able to speak the gospel and if you know what

01:08:51

Mormonism is then you would have to proclaim the gospel to them now

01:08:59

I leave it to Rabbi to explain what he means by I would never dishonor you but I would say that you dishonor someone if you do not deliver them the message that they actually need to hear in a language they can understand that to me is dishonoring someone anyway there's a

01:09:22

I received a letter just the other day from a Mormon official one of our senior officers of the church who simply said appreciate all you've been doing thanks for this thanks for that keep it up one more question where's this going good question he said let me say that another way if we're not going to change our doctrine and they're not going to change their doctrine where is this going did you catch that I believe he said this was a general authority and if that's the case there's a guy on the other side that sees the exact same thing that I see and that is this kind of ooey gooey ecumenism has absolutely no place to go other than to create confusion because here he said if we're not changing our doctrine and they're not changing theirs well what's the whole idea on quote unquote our side all these get togethers and chit chats what's the idea well we want to encourage them you see want to encourage them to become a little more monotheistic a little less polytheistic for what reason they say they're not changing their doctrine yeah but we can just chip away at it and if what we can do is we can get the

01:10:37

BYU guys on board then they're going to be training people up and eventually they're going to become the general authorities and what you're going to end up with is a really confused

01:10:45

Mormonism because folks this is anybody who knows Mormonism knows what

01:10:50

I'm about to tell you is true the only way that modern Mormonism could become a

01:10:55

Christian church would be to completely and utterly anathematize their entire history their temple ceremonies their teachings, their doctrines and most especially anathematize

01:11:08

Joseph Smith Brigham Young, Orson Pratt Orson Hyde Harley P.

01:11:14

Pratt and all the rest of them as false teachers that's the only way and they ain't going to do that they can't do that there's only one way for Mormonism to become

01:11:25

Christian cease being Mormonism remember the quote that I gave you before Joseph Smith we have imagined and supposed that God has been

01:11:36

God for all eternity I will refute the idea and take away the veil so that you may see when he refuted that idea he separated himself and his followers from Christianity forever and so until you repudiate

01:11:49

Joseph Smith you don't have Christianity just that simple he really was as you can tell asking a question in terms of is this in any fashion all of 1960's a kind of ecumenical movement that will dilute or water down the fundamentals of each of our faiths and it was a good question

01:12:09

I spent days just thinking about how to answer it but what came to me was this and that is we have just begun

01:12:16

Rich mentioned some of the topics fall, atonement, grace works trinity, deification, authority

01:12:27

Joseph Smith's first vision scripture but as I began to reflect on it it occurred to me there were at least 12 other topics we just had to get to eventually not the least of which we talked about how important it would be to have a gathering in which we did nothing but talk about the heavens when

01:12:46

I was doing the work on the book whatever happened to the cross unfortunately we didn't get an answer to that question did we we've only just begun we've got to talk about all this stuff and exactly why just to make sure you understand

01:12:59

I understand what Mormonism teaches I know Mormons understand what I believe there's always been people like that so didn't get an answer to that question

01:13:11

I wanted to go back there are no crosses on Mormon churches does that mean

01:13:17

Mormons are opposed to the cross of course not if we are we are opposed to the new testament now

01:13:22

Rich how many times how many times you and I stood Salt Lake City Mesa Arizona some young frequently young kids come up to us and if you're wearing a cross

01:13:39

I've worn a suit jacket out there sometimes I have a cross on that you have a cross anywhere and they point to it why are you wearing that it's shameful what illustration do they use if your son was stabbed to death would you wear a knife around your neck and if your child was executed in an electric chair would you hang an electric chair around your neck

01:14:07

I distinctly remember a young mother getting very upset with me because I had a cross on and I hadn't even made eye contact she came after me before I even saw her yep yep anybody who has ever done any ministry amongst

01:14:27

Mormons knows it which makes me feel like Richard Malt has only done ministry amongst

01:14:33

BYU professors preaching the cross was Paul's assignment and so I began

01:14:39

I went back and did some historical study on this to find out what I could about crosses and both in terms of on buildings and crosses in church literature or crosses in sermons now you're going to love this what you're about to be told is the reason

01:14:55

Mormons don't have crosses really doesn't have anything to do with that atonement in the garden thing though they're going to get into that and Malt actually could defend that idea by the way has nothing to do with that it's because the early

01:15:08

Mormons came out of Puritan churches there you go and what I found was rather surprising

01:15:14

I found, this isn't a very dramatic answer but one of the reasons, if not the principal reason why there were never crosses on Mormon churches is simple

01:15:23

Mormonism, many of the people of the early church had come out of a Puritan tradition Puritanism was anti -ceremonial not just the robes but the buildings there weren't crosses on Baptist churches until the 1830s and so it isn't we were ever opposed to it one of the things

01:15:40

I was searching for was some statement from a church leader saying whatever you do, don't put a cross on the church now

01:15:45

I don't know if you were with me but I remember this guy 2000 it was before the street screechers showed up of course when you could actually still have conversations with Mormons in Salt Lake City but sometime after the turn of the millennium or right before I remember this guy and we were at the

01:16:07

South Gate and he was an interesting Mormon and he pointed up toward Moroni on the temple and he said

01:16:16

I guarantee you within 20 years there will be a cross up there you will see crosses on LDS churches it's coming so let me get this straight the people that came the people that developed and fostered the

01:16:33

LDS temple ceremonies now those are the Masons exactly this original group of people actually came out of an anti -ceremonial group known as the

01:16:47

Puritans which as Sturgeon Fan just pointed out in general they were not anti -ceremonial, they were anti -iconic iconographic but as if we were to simply take his word for his research because he looked into it right these guys, yeah, and he's got stuff behind his name so that makes him cool um these people came out of these anti -ceremonial and the first thing that they did was develop ceremonies

01:17:12

I didn't want you to be confused inconsistency never came up it was just something we just had never done the other thing

01:17:23

I did though was go back and search historically sermons from the beginning from church leaders to see if I could find anything and what

01:17:29

I found was they spoke of the cross all the time Christ died for our sins on the cross,

01:17:34

I went for that matter and went back and researched the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants looking for cross it was everywhere well maybe the more interesting thing

01:17:42

I did he didn't know that, I knew that was to go to our hymn book and read every hymn that had to do with the atoning mission of Christ and it's a fascinating study because what you come up with is it is talked about consistently now, something if you're not aware,

01:18:00

Latter Day Saints believe that Jesus suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane was not just preparatory, not just awful anticipation of what he would face the next day, but that what took place in Gethsemane had redemptive power that it was part of the redemptive part of the passion he begins the suffering in Gethsemane when he sweat as it were drops of blood, let's finish that off they don't like to mention that part, but it's right there what we believe is that it's climaxed, finished, completed on the cross, begins in the garden finished on the cross, that's the

01:18:35

LDS viewpoint but you know, you tend to teach to your distinctives and for the longest time whenever Mormons talked about the atonement, you'd hear them say

01:18:44

Jesus suffering in Gethsemane, it's hard to conceive, he did that for me and it was just part of the conversation it isn't that they didn't believe he suffered on the cross, it's just our distinctive happened to be

01:18:55

Gethsemane and so it became fascinating to put together the fact that these are things that have just been there all along, and I found them everywhere in the

01:19:07

Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants so it's part of the belief structure of the church, but because people tend to emphasize what they're different in we have over the years emphasized instead of cross,

01:19:18

Gethsemane Now, he's exactly right, people emphasize the things they are different in but the people emphasizing the things they're different in he thinks are prophets of Jesus Christ, they're apostles they're giving revelation what's the source of these things?

01:19:35

You see, when you really think about it and I think this is why conservative Mormons are up in arms and concerned in Utah and elsewhere is the millet view of Mormonism is utterly incoherent within the

01:19:49

Mormon worldview you can't have Mormonism if you do not have priesthood authority but not only would the historiography that he utilizes destroy the priesthood concept because as everyone actually knows, historians know anyways

01:20:08

Joseph Smith did not claim to hold the priesthood April 6, 1830 that's a story that developed after the founding of the

01:20:15

LDS church and hence would turn the entire claims of Mormonism on its head at that point but this idea that we are just one group amongst many does not fit with the idea that except that our leaders are actually apostles of Jesus Christ and none of the rest of you have any priesthood authority at all.

01:20:36

It is like battery acid to authentic Mormonism and eventually if the plan is well we're training up the next generation here at BYU and so we're going to train them up in this less virulent form of Mormonism.

01:20:56

We're going to de -emphasize as Gordon Hinckley did de -emphasize presenting the first vision as the first thing you do at the door we're not going to talk to people about the one true church anymore if that gets far enough there's going to be a sizable number of Mormons in Utah they're going to say enough's enough holding this thing together is going to be quite the challenge it really will well it's been and I'm sure it's going to be a remarkable future.

01:21:35

One of the questions I've asked quite a bit is this and I've been approached as Rich knows we've been approached by a representative of the

01:21:41

Roman Catholic Church and asked do you plan to do the same thing with Roman Catholics and I've always said

01:21:46

I vote we send Dave Armstrong to Salt Lake it sounds terrific

01:21:52

I can't imagine where the energy would come from but there's another more interesting challenge and that is what we have in working with Evangelicals is you don't have an organizational structure right with Roman Catholics you do have an organizational structure thus what we've been operating is an academic dialogue not an ecclesiastical dialogue an academic dialogue well who's going to be brought in and my reply is maybe they should be coming and so it's a different dynamic and so for now we're perfectly safe and comfortable doing our work with Evangelicals Ok so that's

01:23:01

Millet's presentation then Mal gets up and he gives us I think one of the most important elements.

01:23:07

I'm going to play that and we'll have to be done for today but we aren't done by a long shot because like I said there were some

01:23:15

Christians with discernment in the room thanks be to God there were some young men with discernment who recognized a a sham when they see it and they weren't having none of it and they asked some good questions.

01:23:33

Unfortunately it was always a situation where the guy who owns the microphone, he's going to get to determine the direction of the conversation but they did the best they could and they asked good questions and I'm very thankful for them if they happen to be listening congratulations gentlemen you did a good job but I want you to listen to Richard Mal presenting the three kinds of Mormonism that's what he does here the three kinds of Mormonism and what he identifies as folk

01:24:03

Mormonism is actually what the LDS church has taught which I've demonstrated at the beginning of this program read to you, played for you, he calls that folk

01:24:11

Mormonism. Let's just dismiss that and let's dismiss temple Mormonism let's talk about redemptive

01:24:17

Mormonism anybody who actually works in the field of evangelizing

01:24:23

Mormons knows this is pie in the sky foolishness it's ridiculous it comes from someone with a bright smile who meets with people in academic settings but has never stood on the sidewalk in Salt Lake City or Mesa, Arizona and would not sully his feet to do so listen up one point about the

01:24:50

Gethsemane thing this is something you need to hear this throughout his whole life he was the baby in the manger as the

01:25:35

African American in many ways more profound gethsemane is a part of it and I think also they deemphasize excuse me it is without the shedding of blood that there is no remission of sins not the sweating of blood see by not actually quoting what the

01:26:25

Doctrine and Covenants actually says and by giving a massaged view of Mormonism, now we've got

01:26:34

Richard Mauss they've emphasized something that we have deemphasized really? you're supposed to emphasize that the

01:26:47

Atonement began in the Garden of Gethsemane where is that in the book of Hebrews Dr.

01:26:53

Mao why did the writer of the Hebrews deemphasize that because the one time offering of Christ is when he gave his life, not when he sweat as it were drops of blood in the

01:27:08

Garden of Gethsemane now I believe in the imputed righteousness of Christ just as much as anybody else does and that means both the active and passive obedience but I don't confuse that with the atoning work of Christ the parallels drawn in scripture in the book of Hebrews in regards to the

01:27:30

High Priest what's the correspondence to the Garden of Gethsemane Dr.

01:27:37

Mao it's not there it's not there I continue on because he hasn't gotten to the point we need to get to and we'll be done

01:27:51

Elder Jeffrey Holland is one of the Twelve Apostles just a very strong supporter of what we're doing that isn't true of all what do they say to each other that's why

01:29:00

I read the Eternal Marriage Ceremony Discussion from their own teaching manual which of course

01:29:07

Mao will dismiss as non -canonical what the leadership of the church is saying to their own constituents and we are seeing

01:29:18

I said this in Calvary just so everybody could hear on the evangelical side we have sort of discerned three different strains within folk

01:29:30

Mormonism my Mormon friends may be a god that's not canonical that's the temple ceremonies that's what the leadership teaches to its people which he just said is what you've got to listen to that's the foundation of Doctrine and Covenants 132 that's the foundation of Doctrine and Covenants 132 but that's not canonical that's why

01:30:07

I said Richard Mao professional apologist for Mormonism amazing that's not official teaching so it's so important to distinguish between folk

01:30:15

Mormonism and the official teachings the canonical teachings yeah the official teachings as determined by whom again?

01:30:23

how about the general authorities? oh well no we can't go there so there's the folk Mormonism what

01:30:28

God now is man once was it's repeated constantly by the general authorities it's clearly what was taught by Brigham Young it's clear it was taught all the way up to the modern period it's clearly still being taught but that's folk

01:30:47

Mormonism wouldn't buy a used car that has taken on but it doesn't have official status secondly there's temple

01:30:57

Mormonism and the rites of Mormonism that are embedded in temple Mormonism now he didn't give you any much information there there's temple

01:31:08

Mormonism we listened to temple Mormonism in the beginning remember? and what did that have?

01:31:13

that's polytheism that's the same that's the same thing as the folk

01:31:19

Mormonism isn't that weird? they're together, they're the same thing I wonder why that is thirdly there's what we call redemptive

01:31:26

Mormonism redemptive Mormonism and it's there now you notice what we we who?

01:31:33

we evangelicals we evangelicals who didn't know nothing about Mormonism we've never been out to the general conference we don't talk to Mormons but we've met behind doors with professors from BYU and so we've come up with these categories of Mormonism ivory towerism to the max so you take the

01:32:16

Book of Mormon over against what? the Doctrine and Covenants of Pilgrim Price now those of us who know

01:32:22

Mormon history know why this is we know that when Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon he didn't believe any of the silliness that he starts to develop in the middle 1830s and becomes prominent by 1838 -1839 that's why you've got the

01:32:34

Book of Abraham we know this, we've known this for years but this is what folks this is what happens when you have scholars who are disconnected from reality they live in the ivory tower all they do is attend all these little things where they meet the same old folks and talk to the same old things and they think that apologetics is ridiculous they think it's just a bunch of lowbrows that are out there doing nothing but arguing and here is the result yeah that's exactly what the

01:33:08

Book of Mormon teaches right ha ha ha by grace we're saved after all we can do if you will rid yourself of all ungodliness and love

01:33:20

God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength then is the grace of Christ sufficient for you oh we don't even worry about those quotations from the

01:33:27

Book of Mormon that some of us had memorized before Richard Mao ever gave Mormonism a second thought and that's there and what we've seen in the last couple decades is a move from those things sometimes not being articulated and they have moved to the center of things so more and more there's a very strong emphasis on Jesus Christ and on the atoning work of Christ and the need for salvation and much more emphasis on the

01:33:54

Christian faith which is why they are producing so many commentaries on the when

01:34:02

I first met Bob one of the most impressive things he said to me was you know I believe all that stuff in Mormonism but on a day to day basis

01:34:09

I live by the epistle to the Romans and I'm seeing more and more of that now did you catch that I believe all that Mormon stuff but I live day to day you can't live by the epistle to the

01:34:23

Romans you don't have the God of Romans or the cross of Romans or the Jesus of Romans it's not a possibility you have to abandon that stuff to believe

01:34:34

Romans well it was right there that they then transitioned to questions and immediately the guys from IRR launched in and that's where we will pick up as we continue this review now

01:34:48

I'm going to have a guest on Thursday and I'm actually going to be responding to an

01:34:54

MSNBC anchor on the subject of abortion so it's going to be a very different topic but definitely even though I will be in San Antonio this weekend next week

01:35:05

I want to get right back into this and I think in another jumbo sized edition of The Dividing Line we should be able to finish it all up thanks for listening we'll see you next time

01:35:15

God bless God bless

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God bless God bless

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God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless God bless