Virtual Evangelism with Peter Hammond

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Opening Banter and Sponsor Read

One, two, three. Welcome to The Wrap Report with your host, Andrew Rappaport, where we provide biblical interpretation and application. This is a ministry of striving for eternity in the Christian podcast community.

For more content or to request a speaker for your church, go to StrivingForEternity .org.

Well, welcome to The Wrap Report. I'm your host, Andrew Rappaport, with my trusty—well, maybe not so trusty—sidekick here, Pastor Jim Osmond. How are you? I'm good. Glad to be back here. I should actually pronounce that Jim Osmond, right?

Isn't that—. Yeah, no. There's no D at the end. Oh, okay. You're not related to the—. You know, now I can't even remember the Osmond kids on the TV show when I was a kid. Donnie and Marie. Donnie and Marie.

There you go. You can sing like them, right?

You know, I sing more like the Jackson 5.

We're not going to ask for any kind of—. You don't want an addition. I see our guest in the background praying, please no. So before we get started, some things to update folks with. We are running a Christmas sale on the book, What Do We Believe?

If you'd like to get that at half off, if you need some Christmas gifts, you just have that person, you don't know what to buy for them, go to strivingforeturning .org. When you purchase the book, What Do We Believe? for as many copies as you purchase, we will give you half off with the coupon code CHRISTMAS21.

So CHRISTMAS21 is the coupon, and we have been seeing orders coming in. We're going to try to make sure those get out real quick so that you can get that in time, hopefully to give as Christmas gifts.

And if you just want to give them as gifts, you can do that too. We're perfectly fine with you just giving those books away if you want to. So that is one thing. The other thing I want to encourage you guys, go to strivingforeturning .org.

Check out an article that Justin Pierce has written about the debate that I did on Apologetics Live. The debate was, basically the topic was Calvinism is useless and dangerous. If you haven't seen that debate, well, okay, it's over three hours long and quite interesting to say the least.

It's always fun to debate a person who wants to debate, he wanted to debate Calvinism, and he wanted this topic, and yet he didn't know the definition of Calvinism. It was quite interesting, quite funny for the Calvinists who were watching, who saw what I was doing, where we revealed he's actually a Calvinist.

It was fun debating a Calvinist on Calvinism, but he didn't know he's a Calvinist. So that was quite entertaining. But there is an article written by Justin Pierce called, Why in the World Are You Debating R .A. Fuentes?

That's the guy I debated. And so I encourage you to go and read that article. Check that out. It's going to go over what the debate was, but it reveals something about this guy that is, he's really making a name for himself in the Philippines.

And people were very upset that I was willing to debate him, because they thought it would give him credibility. And we said, no, Justin wrote this article, and we're going to make sure that's the first article anyone in the Philippines will ever see when they go searching for him.

And right now, it is trending. Right now, the post-debate we did is actually the number one thing that was, when you search for this guy's ministry. So if you guys get a chance to take a look at it, read it, share it, that will help us to make sure that anyone that's looking for this guy online will find that article that Justin wrote and kind of be warned of him.

So just check that out if you could. I forgot to check, Jim, if we have any recent reviews. So I'll have to look into that. But we're still running the, if folks want to get a copy of Person of Interest by J. Warner Wallace, that is still available.

You just have to write a review for us. Give us a review at lovethepodcast .com slash rap report, rap with two Ps. And so write us a review. We'll check that out, and we will pick a winner. And I should say the Christmas sale runs through till the end of the year, actually.

So you can even buy those books that I mentioned earlier after Christmas. So let's get to the topic today, Jim. I first got to say, so our guest is Peter Hammond. He's going to have a very interesting ministry.

Now, he goes to your church, Jim, so you actually, both you and a fellow friend of ours had asked me a couple times, like, you really got to talk to this guy about what he's doing with evangelism. I had already spoken to Peter when I was out at your church, and folks, first off, I just want to tell you one thing with Peter, that as we get through this, when you talk about a guy who's got dedication, I'm going to ask you, Peter, but when I came out to the church the first time, how long of a drive did you have one way to get to church?

How long was your ride? Peter. Yeah, we were driving an hour and a half from Montana to get to Idaho. Okay, so an hour and a half one way, and when I met you, you said you were doing that three times a week.

Jim. Yes, I think I got up to four sometimes.

So when folks, those of you who complain about a 15 or 20 minute drive, and, you know, that may be too much, can't handle it. He was taking with his young children three hours a day, three to four days a week, just to get to a good church.

What are you willing to do to be in a good church? And he recently moved, so he's closer to the church.

Peter. Well, yeah, it's quite the praise of God, because we're not just closer, we're two minutes away, and I can walk to church now. God is that kind of good. It was just such a blessing for us.

David. You know what the real dilemma is with that, though? That also means that you're only two minutes away from Jim Osmond's house. Or maybe, well, depending on the direction, you might be two minutes or six minutes, but David.

So, Peter, you know, I was impressed when I first met you, your desire to evangelize, but really how you're going about evangelism and, you know, and the ministry you've created. Now, Jim, we figured let you, you're more, you're familiar with it.

I want to let you kind of introduce Peter and the ministry he's doing, and then we'll get into some interview with him.

Peter Hammond's Ministry and the Use of Streaming for Evangelism

Yeah, so Peter started attending church at Kootenai several years ago, back prior to us moving into our new building in 2018. And he was attending a church in Montana and had some issues there, came over to Kootenai for a while, went back to Montana to try and help that where church worked through some of those issues, and then eventually landed back at Kootenai and traveled the hour and a half that you mentioned back to Kootenai every week, sometimes twice or three times a week, depending on what was going on.

And he has, he's, Peter's the one who handles our streaming service. So if you watch Kootenai Church web, church services streamed online on Twitch or YouTube, Peter is the one behind the scenes who sets up the cameras, his technical abilities have been a huge blessing to the church.

And that is a great ministry that he runs for us from the sound booth each and every Sunday. And there's a few little projects that Peter is involved in that I kind of want to mention maybe later on in the podcast associated with the streaming service for people who are interested in it.

But we have, I have observed in Peter an ability to communicate the gospel, a faithfulness, a zeal for it. He is, he's always, he's like great comfort walking around with gospel tracks everywhere. He talks to people about the gospel, he shares the gospel with his neighbors and with people walking by and people who just, and we had some people working here at the church upstairs putting in windows and they were unbelievers and Peter stopped by and they were just contractors, workers.

And I told him what was going on upstairs and he said, I'm going to go share the gospel with them. So he zipped right upstairs and started a gospel conversation with them. So he has the zeal and he does it way of the master style, law before grace, just as I've trained other people to do.

And now actually Peter has been training a group from our church to present the gospel on Sunday afternoons. They meet together, he's taken them through way of the master and had them practicing, starting another class in the spring.

So it's a huge blessing. That's his ministry and his gift. But the way he has gone about it has been incredibly unique. And so Peter, if we bring you on now to kind of talk a little bit about that, when you first started this ministry, you were just known as the missionary gamer, right?

And so what platform did you start on with this evangelistic ministry of yours?

We actually started on PlayStation. So it was several years ago. It's a console based system, but it was really started out of necessity. As you mentioned earlier, we were driving an hour and a half to get to Kootenai because we were literally in the middle of nowhere, Montana.

Actually, we were just to the left of nowhere, but we had a great view. And as we were there, the town we were in has its population is 256, 250 less now because we've left. But after coming to know our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, this has been nine years ago now, and realizing what a wonderful opportunity we have to participate in the saving work that God does in people's lives by sharing this good news, I was really encouraged to be able to do that in the environment I was in and very rapidly ran out of people who I hadn't already spoken to the gospel about.

The local town gas pump was a great place to meet people and share the gospel with them. And after a while, I would hand them a track and they would say, yeah, you've already given me to, and they'd hand it back.

And so, I had to start asking the question, well, how can I start connecting with more people who haven't necessarily heard the gospel yet? And I used to be terribly addicted to video games, and God freed me from that.

I was so thankful, because it really is a synthetic drug. It's right up there with alcohol and other drugs, and it's designed to just suck your time away. And there is a certain level of it. That's good.

You can just play a game. But as you guys know, it doesn't take much for something that's a hobby to all of a sudden turn into something that really sucks your life away and becomes an escape. And that's unfortunately what happens with a lot of people with it.

And that was me. And one of my worst weeks, I remember I clocked it. It was 105 hours was spent in gaming.

Video Games as a Mission Field and a Warning About Addiction

Yeah. So, when you started doing evangelism in that environment, that was not because you were already there and addicted to it. The Lord had delivered you from that. You kind of went back into that environment almost as a missionary to that mission field, correct?

Yeah, that's what, after he freed me from it for several years, and I was in Montana, I started asking a question. You know, after going through Ray Comfort's Living Waters Way of the Master training, you know, is it possible to use this technology to be able to share the gospel with people?

And in short order, I answered that question. A game cut came out called Fallout. We had a PlayStation in our basement, and we hooked it up. And because of the technology, much like this was Zoom, where you have the audio that's able to connect with people all over the world from their homes, that's what you have with video games.

You also have presence and the ability to do emotes and to be able to give things to people and stuff. So, there's an interaction that is very good to be able to set up a rapport with somebody and then share the gospel with them.

And in short order, I realized it is a successful platform when used properly. And that was, there's some nuances to it, you know. In the real world, when you're sharing the gospel with somebody, you don't have to worry about a zombie coming up and trying to attack you or something like that.

Yeah, well, you know, one thing with that, for people who may not realize, is, you know, for people that don't play the online games and don't realize the friendships that can get developed over that is, I actually know people who the first time they met was at a wedding, their own wedding.

Couple that got married and half the people that attended were people they only knew online in games and they came to the wedding. And so, they had built these relationships because, like you, this is their pre-save days, they were, I mean, literally their honeymoon, they spent their honeymoon three straight days of doing nothing but playing online games.

They had food ordered in, they didn't sleep, that was their honeymoon. I think of other things I would do on my honeymoon, but that talks to the addiction of it, but it also talks about the relationships.

All of their relationships they had were online and they met people for the first time, and that might seem really foreign to people, but for those that may sound foreign, how many of us can say we know everybody that we're friends with on Facebook or Twitter or these other things?

These are online relationships as well, and a lot of people are very close, sharing very intimate things with people they've never actually met because of the technology.

And there's also a shared experience that is much like you'd imagine going camping or going hunting with somebody or going on a bike ride. With games, you have this shared opportunity to go through some kind of experience that draws you closer together.

You're able to help each other. You're able to go through failures together and learn together. And so, there's some very positive aspects about the technology when it's used rightly that are great, and I have some great relationships with people online.

In fact, one of the people who's been in my ministry now for the better part of three years, James Suns, we met through the game three years ago, and he was actively working with my ministry, and I had never actually met him until just this last year when he came to the conference that we had at the church.

Twitch, Live Streaming, and Two Audiences at Once

Peter, so for people who might not be able to picture what you mean when you talk about sharing the gospel in a gaming environment, a lot of people, maybe particularly from my generation, when we talk about a gaming environment, they're thinking of digital avatars on the screen and the no communication with anybody else, and that's not what you're talking about.

I've seen some of the video clips, and Andrew could probably link to some of those in the show description or even edit them into the video at some point. I'm going to put those in the show notes. Yeah, you're in a digital environment where there's actually, you have your avatar there having a conversation with somebody else's avatar.

So you are visually, you're there in a digital environment with somebody else, but audibly you're connecting up with people who are all over the world who come into this gaming environment, the room or the server, whatever that is.

They come in there, you're playing against them, and you're actually having conversations with them, correct?

Yeah, and I think that's where the name video game is really a misnomer now. It undercuts what's actually going on. It's a multimedia communication system where you have physical presence. You have the ability to interact.

You have all of the connections that you'd imagine in the real world with the exception of being able to actually eat real food or be able to give them a hug, but the opportunity to interact with them in a way that is very personal.

You know, you're able to gesture, you're able to move around, you're able to give them things that show a certain level of embracing of them as a real person, where when you're thinking of Pong or something like that, it's not the same thing.

And you're not necessarily playing against them either. You're playing with them. And that was one of the things that I really appreciated in these multiplayer environments was using them as an opportunity to build that camaraderie, that rapport with them by playing against the game.

And that was a great opportunity to build those relationships that then were very fruitful to be able to lead into the gospel.

So then you're in some of these environments where you're with all these people from all over the world, people of various ages too. And then you're just striking a gospel conversations with them as if they were sitting in your living room.

Yeah, and that's one of the things that's very powerful is you're able to connect with them all over the world. I was able to share the gospel with Muslims in Morocco. And in Morocco, if you mention the name of Jesus Christ, they can actually arrest you.

I was very surprised to hear that. And then all throughout Europe and Australia and all these different places where I'm in the middle of nowhere, Montana, and I'm able to actually connect with them for the gospel.

It's a very interesting environment because you have that very personal connection, like you were saying, but you also have the fact that you do realize you're in a virtual world. So as you're in the middle of witnessing to them, there are some nuances.

For example, you're not usually witnessing to somebody in the real world and just have them disappear because the internet connection goes down. Usually you don't have to stop and engage with a robot who's attacking you and then get back to the gospel.

So there are some nuances to it, but largely it is very much like witnessing to somebody in the real world. In fact, most of Ray Comfort's videos I would watch and train from, and they were directly applicable to sharing the gospel in the virtual world.

Discipleship Through Twitch and Chapterverse

DrMR And when you're in that virtual world, then you started off with some of those evangelistic encounters. And then how did that morph into other things like Bible studies and things of that nature?

DrMR Yeah, so the value of the one-on-one, of course, is always our primary focus. But as Ray Comfort shows in his videos, and I know Andrew knows as well, is you're not necessarily just witnessing to the person you're speaking with.

It's that crowd that forms and wants to listen to that you get in the outside world. In games, that's not necessarily going to happen as much. And so there's a whole streaming platform for streaming games live.

And I was able to plug into that. It's called Twitch. And through that process, not only was I able to witness one-on-one with a person and maybe anybody else who was able to hear in the game, but also people come into the Twitch platform, and they would watch me sharing the gospel with people through the game.

And it was a great opportunity to have that quantification of effort and get that where you're sharing with one person, but now you have this other person who's seeing it. They're hearing the gospel as well.

And they're actually able to interact with you through Twitch too. So that's pretty cool.

DrMR And so you would be having these gospel conversations in the PlayStation Fallout world, that conversation that is being live-streamed into this gaming community, and people are coming in and out of that channel like you would come in and out of a YouTube channel and watching this live stream of your gospel presentation.

Andy. And they're interacting. They can actually interact and send you text while you're live-streaming. So that gives yet another opportunity of communication.

DrMR And let me just say this, because there's... DrMR Sorry, Andrew, I was just going to say, then you're just addressing some of those questions or objections as you're reading them come up on the feed there in the very environment.

So you're really playing to two different audiences at the same time.

DrMR. Yes. Yeah, because that's what I wanted to bring up is the fact that, you know, for me, my generation, and Peter, you're a little bit younger than me, you know, for us, when Pong came out on Atari, that was a big deal.

And so for some folks that are hearing what you're saying, it is a foreign world what you're talking about. Now, I know that this electronic gaming is a huge industry. People don't realize, my nephew, there's a game he played very well, he was a top-ranked player.

And my son actually was like, my son was the one telling me, like, we got to get a camera on him to video it. I'm like, why? He goes, he could be making six figures, if not more, with the way... I'm like, from what?

And this is a kid at the time wasn't even in high school. And my son's like, oh, yeah, there's guys that are as good as him that are making seven figures. And I'm like, but he's not even in high school.

And what it is, is there's this whole thing with the electronic gaming, it's actually its own sport, as I've discovered. I mean, some of the big companies are getting behind it. You know, I know like a company like AT &T is putting hundreds of millions of dollars into this, because they're seeing how much they're going to get from it.

People rent arenas, and they all sit around and play video games. And it's all interactive, but they communicate. It is something that, for my generation, is really hard for us to understand some of what you're saying.

That's why I bring it to things like social media, because this is what, for many people, they don't realize, is there is a social media aspect to it. I worked with a developer, and I'm going to date myself, and those who understand video games will understand this, but I worked on a project with a developer who was writing the original chat for the game Doom.

Now, that sets it back. But that was the first time you actually had a chat in a game. And they came to us, we were working at Bell Laboratories at the time, and they came to us to say, how do we do this?

How do we get chat in there? This has come so far from that. And so, let me ask it this way, because we're jumping into the evangelism. Can you bridge the gap for people that their experience of a video game is playing chess or things like that online, where they don't realize how immersive it really is nowadays?

Well, and there's an opportunity, too, to capitalize on what we now experience because of COVID, where a lot of people now have moved to Zoom calls. So, much like we're in a Zoom call right now, that's the technology.

I mean, we have audio, we have video, we have presence. Those are all the same things that are happening in the game. It just happens to be that there's a storytelling aspect about that obviously is not the context here.

So, when we look at bridging that gap, it really is just a communication platform. It is much like you'd imagine a multi-call. It's much like a Zoom meeting. It's much like this. But you have that presence.

You have the ability to say, hey, why don't you come over here? Let me show you something. And you're able to move throughout the world together. And that gives you a great opportunity to create those relationships, like you were talking about earlier, where they're your friends.

You've had these shared experiences. You've gone through difficulties together, and that brings you closer. And the power of gaming to do that, I think, is great. And especially today with the way the technology goes, people understand it's really getting more and more into the storytelling.

And that's the big marketing pitch right now is how can you use this to tell a story and gather people into that story and communicate worldviews? And that's a powerful statement because you're talking about audio, visual, sound.

I mean, the amount of multimedia backing up that storytelling is profound. And so, this is beyond just throwing flannel graphs up when it comes to being able to communicate and largely, as we were talking about earlier, a large amount of kids.

And that was something that I was really unprepared for because going through, obviously, Ray Comfort's videos, he's on Santa Monica Pier. You know, people are passing by. He's always getting new people coming in.

Well, when you're in a game, I started realizing that after a while, a lot of these were returned people that are already shared the gospel with. I'm like, no, I've shared it with you already. I need to get more people in here I haven't met yet.

And they were needing discipleship. And that's where, as Jim was talking about earlier, how did this start morphing? I started asking the question, like, okay, what do you do after you share the gospel with somebody?

And that's where we need to talk about, you know, getting them into some sort of biblical, you know, environment to be able to disciple to them, to be able to share with them the Word of God in a constructive way.

We used Grace to Use, Fundamentals of the Faith as a recommendation from Jim. We were grateful for that. And we started teaching through that in the game, and it worked great. But after a while, we started to realize that the game's storytelling and the direction they were going was not something that was going to be able to be supported long term because it's getting more and more demonic, more and more pornographic.

And so we really had to decide to make a shift in what we were doing. And that's when we started thinking about, can we make our own games that capitalize on this technology?

Creating Scattered Wisdom and Teaching the Bible Through Games

Tell us then about the new platform that you are working at developing, because you went from sharing the gospel and evangelism in these environments to beginning to disciple some of the people. In fact, we even have people now who live stream the Kootenai service, who got saved as a result of your online ministry, have been discipled by you.

You've actually met online and read chapters of my book, of all things, to people who are interested. And then you have been involved with discipling and mentoring some of these people that have come to know the Lord as a result of that online evangelism.

And now they join us on a Sunday morning because they're in a lockdown country or they're in a church that's nowhere near them and you're in regular correspondence with them. But now you've kind of moved out of from going into fallout, that environment that you were very familiar with.

Now you've kind of moved to basically the next step, which is creating your own environment. Tell us about that.

Yeah, well, we tried fallout. We tried DayZ. We tried Ark. All of these games have various mechanics about it. We really liked being able to put up gospel signs, being able to build things, to be able to interact with people that showed maybe a cross or something doing visual storytelling.

But at the end of the day, you're fighting against the game. A lot of them have very foul language. A lot of the games had things in them that were not family friendly, I did not want to promote. And so about a year ago, actually a year plus now, we started seeing the way the technology was going and seeing how the bar was lowered and lowered and lowered and the power of the technology was accelerated.

And we really started asking the question, can we make our own high quality video games? And we spent a year doing the research, a specific platform called Unreal Engine, which many people are familiar with is the platform behind Fortnite, very, very popular game right now.

And it's all free. And so using this free platform, we were able to build our own virtual world that is multiplayer with high quality audio, with all of the bells and whistles that they're used to in other games.

But we now control the whole environment. And we're using the premise from, if you're familiar with the Dead Sea Scrolls, how they were hidden away because of what was happening as Jerusalem was sacked.

We're using that premise. And we've built a future world where artificial intelligence has done the same thing, tried to destroy the Bible because it misread Ecclesiastes and thought, oh, if I get rid of all knowledge, it'll make people happy.

Of course, it didn't work. But we hid away the Bible. It's hidden throughout the land. And they go throughout the land trying to piece together their own copies of scripture. And it's called Scattered Wisdom.

And we've been in development now for three months. And we just had just yesterday, fantastic. We had our very first live Way of the Master training in the game where we used the same exact training we did at Kootenai Community Church, but we used it in the game.

And we're tailoring it to how you share the gospel to somebody in games that now we've.

Learned how to do for more than three years. You know, your game is not too far off from reality. If you know what's going on in China right now, they're actually working to try to have where they can remove anything that they find offensive as a socialist country out of games and things like that.

They're actually using AI to do exactly that. So you may not be too far from reality and give it 10 years.

I hope not. So this is the storyline that you're telling now, Peter. Now you're in control of the storyline. You're in control of what gets put up in this environment. And who's the target for this new gaming environment?

Are you just targeting Christians? Is there a way that you're luring non-Christians in there that you can begin to share the gospel with them as well? How are you working through those issues?

Well, the platform's free to play. And right now it's out on PC. It's live. And what we do is we dev all week, and then we release a new build each Saturday. And part of the reason why we're doing that is because there's always this desire for gamers to see something new.

And normally they have to wait, you know, year plus for new games to come out. We just decided, you know what? Let's just rev it each week and let them come and join us. And because of that, there's a groundswell of people who want to see what's going on and they can influence its development.

In fact, I was talking to Andrew earlier about this user-generated content that we have where they can actually make objects and submit them. And we bring them in and add them to the game. And here's from Genesis 3, 1 through 7, the tempting of Adam and Eve by Satan and the serpent.

So this interaction, this real time is a draw. They appreciate that. We obviously are welcoming of all people and all backgrounds. We have a lot of people who are Christians who want to be part of it, but also not.

Just last night as part of the Way of the Master training, we had a young lady come in and her name was Sarah. And she was from a Muslim background, did not know the gospel, wanted to hear more about it.

And through the process of going through the Way of the Master and then role-playing at the end in the game, she was live streaming it on Twitch. She was able to hear the gospel. And also, we were able to give her a link to the book of John, and she was actively reading it, asking us questions.

And it's this quantification of effort that I'm most encouraged by because we've got the game where we're one-on-one, we have people live streaming, we've got people coming in, and then we can post snippets of it to YouTube, which then it gets reused again there as well.

So as far as participation right now, it's largely word of mouth, but we're very thankful to have interest in it from Andrew and others. And we're hoping that it will slowly groundswell and get more and more people involved in it.

So the storyline of Scattered Wisdom is a futuristic kind of a dystopia where the books of the Bible have been scattered. And you and I talked about one thing, and this will be of interest to Andrew as well, and probably a lot of people listening from an apologetics perspective is, as the players go through this storyline of trying to gather up Bible books that have been hidden before the AI tried to wipe out all remnants of godly philosophy and of Scripture, as the participants go through and gather up Scripture, they're going to possibly come across multiple manuscripts of the same book.

And those manuscripts might have differences in them. And this kind of opens up an opportunity in the process of telling the storyline of the book for you to do a little bit of teaching about manuscript preservation, manuscript copying, copying mistakes or copyist errors, duplication of manuscripts, how things get brought into the text that weren't there, or whether it's possible for God's Word to be lost.

There's a whole way of teaching about the preservation of manuscripts and the, what would you call it, the tenacity of the manuscript tradition itself, just through that storyline. Not just that they've got to overcome these challenges and solve the puzzles to find Scripture, but then once they find it, they might have to do the hard work of trying to think through, how do I tell if, which one of these is a corrupted copy and which one of them represents the original?

Manuscript Preservation and the Trustworthiness of God's Word

DrMR Yeah, we're grateful for God Wrote a Book, which was your Sunday School lesson system, and we're going to be bringing that in and using that as an opportunity for more teaching around how do we know that the Bible can be trusted?

How do we know about the tenacity of God's Word and how He's supernaturally protected it? And how we have so many ways to validate it. It's wonderful to give that assurity to people that, you know what?

You can trust the Word of God and here's why, unlike any other book that's ever been done. And it's a great opportunity, like you said, to use the game to support the teaching and use the teaching to interact with the game.

And all of this is an environment and it's a platform that not just I can use, but other people can use it as well. We have somebody who's already planning on doing a Bible study in it. One of the joys of my ministry is a young lady from Chile who started out actually as a young man when I first met her, or a young boy pretending to be.