The Dividing Line/CrossPolitic Cross Over Show!

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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00:26

Greetings and welcome to the dividing line on a special dividing line on a Friday. We are joined today

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It's sort of a what do they call this a mash -up? Is that what you call it crossover? Whatever it is when you put everybody together

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I am joined by the trio the guys that Are so famous or infamous or something depending on how you want to look at there.

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They are the guys that cross politic They are they cannot see me so I can make faces at them.

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I can do all sorts of things I want to do I can hold up signs that they can't see, you know, whatever, but they have been kind enough to Join with us here and we've got some stuff to talk about and a lot of people are all excited about this

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On the on the internet. The one thing I need to tell them that we're going to disappoint them about Immediately is we're not actually though the word got out.

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We're not actually having a baptism debate So I just want people to understand that.

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I mean that that word got to you guys to that. We're not doing that part, right? Wait, wait, what? Don't don't tell me that cuz chocolate

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Knox didn't even know we were doing this half an hour ago, so You know it

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Okay, let's let's get into this because all right what happened was I was over in London and you guys did a program where you interviewed

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Matt Walsh because I think was it because of the the exchange he had with Sites and Brigham Kate.

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Is that what sort of got that going or what? Thank you before that. It was before that yeah, there's there's a

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Matt had been going back and forth on with a number of different people and then side jumped in and then we so there's there's a

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Thread a number of different threads that Matt was on and I just saw some of his kind of apologetics

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And I was like, oh my gosh, we got to get him on and then psych hopped on that thread I was Matt was specifically saying that in arguing about abortion

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He didn't find it helpful to use the Bible to just jump right in with the Bible, right? Right, right yeah,

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I didn't know exactly what had had prompted it, but I So honestly,

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I listened to the whole thing while doing crunches now that might impact that might impact How you how you interpret things or something like that?

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So if you can imagine some old guy in a hotel in London right near the Thames River Doing crunches listening to cross -politic.

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That's what was that's what was going on. So Well when we got when

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I got done I'm sort of like well, ah I don't know how to how to react to that because I mean most of it was chocolate

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Knox and him doing the role -playing type thing. Okay, and I listened to it again.

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I'm sorry You didn't like my role play. Is that what you're saying? No, I but he you did the role -playing at first and he's trying to do his thing and then you reversed it then he turned it around reversed it and It was just so clear to me that there was a big old gap between the two of you

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So here's let's start with this question. And this was the first thing someone tweeted to me the day that it aired

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That somebody had caught and that is at the beginning of the program. You referred to him as brother

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Matt Walsh now was that just sort of a You know

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Sometimes you just call people brother or was there a theological content to the statement Yes, definitely theological

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I think And I ain't gonna lie it made my hair kind of pull up on the back of my neck

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But I don't know you don't have any here even that yeah, that's the crazy part about I don't have no hair back there And I knew that every

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Baptist in the world was gonna grab it and be like what the heck just happened here Can you say heck on this show? Well Okay, so but it does speak to the issue because Sure through that throughout the entire discussion

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You all are talking about the gospel Bring the gospel to bear in the role play chocolate

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Knox. You're you're talking about trying to bring them to the gospel Everybody whenever any of you, you know got to say anything because Matt Walsh does his he's you know, he's a radio guy so he knows how to talk over everybody look like we all do if we want to but When you got a chance to speak you're talking about hey, we want this to be about the gospel

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This is the power of God in the salvation this is I change people's hearts and Matt's not going there for love nor money and the reason is

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He doesn't have the same gospel you do Right, and and that's kind of what

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I felt like at the moment. I wanted to push and see okay So I'm kind of pressing in that soft area. So dr. White, you've known me.

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I've grown up in my Business in this industry around Todd frill, right? so I've been around many witness encounters and shot him edit him the whole nine and Had a lot of great back conversations and learned a lot from the means of Todd and Ray Comfort And so for me, you know not really knowing where Matt was

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He I know what he professes and I wanted to push as hard as I could to see if he would be ashamed of it

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And the harder I push the more I thought it became clear to those listening that Matt wasn't really though Ready to commit to that in any way

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Well, that's what you said at the end. You said at the end of the program you said, you know I I get the feeling he's he's you know a little bit ashamed of the gospel, right?

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Yeah, but see my problem is I'm not sure how much you follow his stuff But Matt I I got six kids

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With six kids you might you might have learned to multitask I you know My baptized kids man

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But but the point is he detests the sovereignty of God election

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Everything that is definitional that we would share he detests those things he is a conservative believing

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Roman Catholic mass transubstantiation purgatory A natural theology the whole nine yards and the the the disconnect

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I felt at the end of listening to The interview the first time and then again this morning was

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The issue for him is that we it y 'all kept talking about the gospel

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But there was never a definition of what it actually is other than You guys are going hey this gospel changes hearts

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This is how you can change the heart of the person who wants to kill his baby and stuff like that He doesn't have a transformational gospel

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But but didn't but didn't David didn't he didn't you actually explain the gospel when you were doing the role play?

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Absolutely. I mean you did Yeah, and the role play I defined it did explain it but and then he said yeah.

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Yeah. Yeah. I agree with all that well, the fact matter is he doesn't agree with all that if he's going to mass on Sunday and he believes

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Christ is being represented in a propitiatory sacrifice

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And if he believes that the entire Semi -pelagian sacramentally based system of Works salvation

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And priestly absolution. That's not a transformational gospel. That's what that's why he can't possibly

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Agree with you because as he said, as he said, I've never seen it work. Well, yeah

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Actually, I would love to have more that conversation with Matt the point I was going after with Matt wasn't necessarily that one at the outset.

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I really wanted him for me I was working my way there and boy We could have had another hour like the dividing line would do we probably finally get there

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Well, we were at I really just wanted to make it clear. There's only one option if you're not gonna buy into that option

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I don't know care if you're Catholic. I don't care if you claim evangelicals. I don't care if you don't baptize babies or do Nothing works

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You don't have an answer. So I just put him in a category. I swept him in that same category

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I would have swept anybody in regardless if they would claim to be a Catholic or Christian because they're denying the obvious Transforming work of the gospel even though they might profess it right or claim it and one way that you would be comfortable with But this is this is one of the main issues that we're dealing with though in the quote -unquote, you know dealing, you know abortion has become

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Absolutely front and center in our society in a way that I in my entire life. I've never seen

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It's there but that has also exposed Differences in what would be broadly called the pro -life movement to sure and Especially at this point

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I love hearing people saying that we need to bring the gospel to bear that this is the only way to transform

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Hearts, but there's only one gospel that does that And so I would imagine that we agree that the gospel that Matt Walsh professes to believe is

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Not the gospel that's going to change someone's heart. Am I am I correct on that, right?

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But would we also agree that someone could believe in something that's not right and still be Christian, right?

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But where do we okay Flesh that out for me. How does that relate to Matt Walsh? Because I mean

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Matt's not just he's not just believing something That's wrong. That's wrong. I mean, you know, you guys are wrong about baptism.

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I think you're my brother's so That's not the issue. The the issue is there there is a there is a line

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Obviously, I don't believe that the baptism issue is that line by any stretch of imagination

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That's why I can preach in Presbyterian churches And when I did the debate with with Bill Shishko, he had me preaching in the

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OPC Church the night before on Justification. This is a great way of demonstrating. Hey, this is this is something that we were addressing as brothers

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But can I be a member at your church? Could you be a member at apologia, you'll have to ask

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Jeff that question next week on the air But you'd have to agree with me that in Galatians chapter 2

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When Paul addresses the pseudo Delphi that are troubling the church in Galatia That they were in the church.

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They looked like us. They talked like us. They dressed like us Yet he called them pseudo

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Delphi false brethren and said we didn't put up with them for even an hour So the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

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So there is a line that has to be drawn Absolutely And would you agree with me that if the

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Judaizers crossed that line in Galatia? When you look at what Rome teaches we can start with the mass we can go to the

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Pope we can go from there to Purgatory that they've gone so far beyond the the Judaizers that it's not even funny.

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Would we agree on that? I think the issue is I agree on paper. I would totally agree on paper that the

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Council of Friends We're getting we're getting the max headroom thing going on, unfortunately

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I don't know if it's a solar flare Or just what

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No, I can hear you now, hi, okay Are we caught back up?

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How's this? You hear me? I'm hearing you Okay. Okay, Toby start over. I was just gonna say I think we completely agree with you on paper on paper

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So what the Roman Catholic Church teaches dogma wise with the Council of Trent formally

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Stated and so I mean the Council Trent anathemized the gospel And so they went, you know on record as saying that, you know formally there are there a false church

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So we agree. I think completely there. I think the issue though is one of where our individual people, right? So John Calvin recognized that even though the

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Roman Catholic Church had formally become an antichrist had become a false church There were many true

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Christians in that false church. And so there were still even true churches within the Roman Catholic communion

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And I think it's the same thing all the way down to the present day where not all of Israel are of it Yeah, and even even them even

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Paul for his harsh words in Galatians about the false brothers who are Judaizers I can't remember which letter it is

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But in another letter, he actually commends the work of a disciple who was of the circumcision party

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And so even Paul Though he condemns formally those people who hold that doctrine could still work side -by -side

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With those who in some fashion were still associated with Judaizers I've had this experience many people have

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I think who you Meet people who are Roman Catholics and as you talk to them you find out like I'm I'm pretty sure you're a believer

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I believe like you believe in Jesus and you've got some weird stuff on the side here Maybe wrong with you and they're wrong and they need to be corrected and I would urge them come out get out find a

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Bible Believe in church, but I'm I'm convinced that there are many true believers still within the

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Roman Catholic fold So is was that basically the the attitude you have toward Matt Walsh?

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Well, yeah, and I would add to that part of the brother comment. There is is we also

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I'm taking Matt's faith at face value Faith value Faith at face value and and so I haven't really seen any let's say

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Action that might make me think that he's not a believer despite his views of the gospel and his

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Adherence to Council Trent. I mean, I would want an opportunity I would want an opportunity to take so, you know chalk presents the gospel to him and Matt, you know

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As you said sort of said yeah. Yeah, but then didn't think it was effective I mean if we had him here in the studio, we have an afternoon with them drill down I want to push that and I want to I want to kind of I want to push the conflict that you rightly are

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Recognizing that that the the formal doctrine dogma of Roman Catholicism flies right in the face of the the free grace of the gospel

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Yeah, I would want to press that I think in the 20 -minute Midweek fix that we had for us.

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The main point was just to try to preceptive I Got the last part of hopefully have some opportunities to push him, but we did we did some more of the max headroom thing

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I'm not sure if you guys are old enough to remember max headroom. Oh, yeah the coke guy Something I don't remember but it was the we're the the

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Internet up there in Internet's sort of a new thing up there in in, Idaho, isn't it?

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I Mean, I mean, you know Pony Express stuff like that, you know, we understand you're doing the best you can so when you when you say

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When you when you say you don't you don't see anything in Matt Walsh that would cause you to Not think that he is a brother

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Dramatically defending Roman Catholic theology of the mass and and and Salvation doesn't it doesn't get included in that?

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But I think that I would like to have the conversation more with him the same way that Ali stuck We really drilled down on his conversation with hell

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So I was able to catch not the whole thing of that because I got six kids remember I was able to catch a little bit. They are baptized

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But so I would love to drill down more on that I think if we actually had a chance to drill down a little more other outside of that conversation

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We would want to we want to chase the very point your mate. Come on, doc You know, you know, we would go down that and eat that alive

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So, you know that so then the difference between us basically is I'm going to start

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With the assumption that and and maybe you haven't seen him addressing these issues

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Absolutely the different thing that's my deal James I honestly have talked to him two times and I think I've listened to him once and that's all

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I that's what I know So I know he's a professing Roman Catholic. I know he's conservative. I know he's pro -life. That's really all I know

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Okay. Yeah, well and since I have tried to engage him He ignores me, but since I've tried to engage him and I have watched him

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Just just mock the concept of election and and issues like that I mean,

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I'm starting with the assumption that he is a knowledgeable professing Roman Catholic and Therefore my first idea is this is someone

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I need to be evangelizing I cannot assume that we both possess the life transforming message of the gospel

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Because I don't view Rome's teaching whether you're talking about the old tridentine

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Form or even the new hippie cool Frankie version, which no one knows what it means.

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Anyways neither one of them are actually transformational and so I'm gonna start with the need to Deal with that with him and what you're saying is without that knowledge of his background

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That's not where you're gonna start. You're gonna start with sort of a hopeful assumption and I've met so many

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I've met so many Roman Catholics I guess in my experience and and maybe these are just exceptional things, but I've met so many where I I'll lay

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I'll point out some of the differences and And and they and those same

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I'm I'm I'm I'm not I mean I believe the gospel and I'm sort of confused by that.

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Yeah, but I also think well the church is a messy place Actually, and my great example of this

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I did a and he's good friends with somebody who we know doc Alan Keyes, right and Alan Keyes to me blows my mind because here is a

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Catholic And at that time I hadn't met too many of you but you hear Alan Keyes talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ and you sit there and say this man is

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Schizophrenic or something. I don't understand how this these two worlds live together in the same way. I Know I know

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I I sat it. I sat at dinner with him In November of 2017

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I think and everyone else the table just sort of ended up wandering away because we were in a

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Deep conversation about the Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church It took it took about three sentences till we were into it.

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That's just that's just how fast it happened and He is he he may he may call himself

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Orthodox, but you and I both know from a Roman Catholic perspective He's way too independently minded to actually be

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Orthodox as far as when I met like that years ago And I think it was 2007. I think that was and then after that I started meeting now

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There's a weird branch of Catholics to which is the charismatic Catholic people, right? Now those are the ones that act like evangelicals and they use all the altar

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Stuff at the altar and they burn that stuff at the Catholic Church and but yet they still want to be a part of the Catholic Church and so it's messy for me too in that sense.

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I know these guys. I don't know why they're still there Maybe they have some bad understanding of what the church is

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Ecclesiology is an issue for a lot of these guys But I'm I'm careful I treat care I treat

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Catholics almost like I treat charismatic I need to know you talk to you understand what you mean by stuff before I start casting down judgment now

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Listen doc, if you and me want to get together and start a Presbyterian Council to start calling these guys out. I'm with that Well, it's just just for me given the close look here's here's what

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I see coming I I See global Christianity moving south as the center of things right now

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We see a lot of growth in South America in Africa. There's a lot of problems in Africa. But anyway,

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I See the kingdom growing and expanding around the world and yet I also see

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Western culture under a tremendous amount of judgment I can't imagine how else anyone can describe a culture

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They can start injecting hormones into eight -year -old boys to turn them into little girls Anything like that,

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I mean that is just that is if that doesn't fulfill if you don't love the truth You'll be caused to love a lie

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I don't know what does so the point is in the future unless the the

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Lord makes a has something really change We are going to be pushed into a smaller and smaller

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Portion of oh we lost you there. There we go. I lost me we're gonna be pushed into a much smaller and smaller portion of the culture and That means we're we're gonna be we have to we have to know

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Because we're gonna be pushed tighter and tighter together with Roman Catholics. We have to think through these issues extremely carefully and Especially in the broad pro -life movement quote -unquote, whatever however you want to define that we are forced to work with one another and to communicate with one another and as a result

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The questions are going to be coming I'm seeing a lot of evangelicals who have adopted the perspective that says, you know, what let's not worry about that gospel stuff

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Let's yeah Trinity Deity Trinity deity of Christ Crucifixion resurrection that's good enough.

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That's that's the the basic Christianity model and there's too many questions about the gospel

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Let's leave it off to the side that has already taken over. I think a large portion of what used to be called evangelicalism

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Yeah Presbyteries are a good way to handle a lot of definitions Yeah, I think the the distinction

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I want to make is between allies and co -belligerents Yeah, and and so I think we can we can have co -belligerents

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Who are not we're not with us in the gospel, but who want to fight transgender mutilation and the butchering of babies

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Who aren't allies because we know that the central power To accomplish to defend life and to redeem life is the gospel, right?

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And The thing that scares me the most aren't the Catholics in this situation, it's always the truth

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It's us. It's evangelicals. I'm more concerned about in a lot of ways because that's where the ball's really been dropped it in a lot of ways

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Catholics have been doing things to our shame and and holding the lines and a lot of areas where if we were there

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They wouldn't even be in this conversation right now. There shouldn't be a need for a Matt Walsh. Yeah, that's our shame

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I Can think of some areas but I can also recognize that The current trajectory of the leadership of the

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Roman Church is away from that. I mean if you've read In the what is it in the closet of the

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Vatican that just came out a few a few months ago the the lavender mafia the the clear documentation of the large proportion of Homosexuals in the in the leadership of the

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Roman Catholic Church surprised Yeah, and that and that obviously is resulting in You know when the

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Pope can sit on his plane and say homosexuals who am I to judge? And the rest of the rest of the world goes what?

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Something something's going on there That I'm not sure what that's gonna end up, you know, you know resulting in but it just I want before we move on I just want to make sure because The the discussion was about we all agree that what needs to be brought to bear is the

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Transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This is the only power that's been given to us

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It is the only power that there's no power on earth that can possibly resist this and my my concern was

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Someone listening to that might not Recognize that there were two understandings of the gospel

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Only heard one dot. Well, yeah, he doesn't yeah You'll notice that the reason that he said that doesn't work or I've not seen that You know that pragmatic thing is the man -centered gospel that he has doesn't change hearts and minds.

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That's he's exactly, right One gospel and that whatever that they how are they might think of it?

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I believe the supernatural power of hearing that alone is enough to transform their heart Yes, but let's let's just but did

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Matt but did Matt hear that? That's that that would be another question. You wanted to I know you want to have more time with him.

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I get that I understand that you know this too. Sometimes when you're talking to the person you're really talking to the audience

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So Matt was just there a lot of times to be there in one sense that we're having a conversation But there's a point and you know this from open -air preaching where it might be the guide three three rows down You know,

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I mean and so sometimes you have the conversation with the person that's there, right? But man, you kind of hit the whole audience and you say which dog is gonna yell the loudest, you know

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In the situation sometimes and so and you know this from hosting the show. It's not always about what's in front of you It's what's behind and where you're trying to you know, who else you're trying to hit in that conversation

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Oh, yeah, I I hear it and that's why when when I got done with it, I was like Let's talk about that.

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But somehow that wasn't one of the 20 questions that I got A couple of weeks ago. We did that on purpose!

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It's your fault that you listen to cross -politic anyway. You shouldn't even be listening to it. I don't even know what you're doing. That got ducked for some reason so, okay, so If you got a chance to have

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Matt Walsh on again Yeah, what would you do? What would you say to him?

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My first question is what does he make of Jesus Christ? Okay Just start at the beginning.

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I would just start at the beginning. What is it? Who is Jesus? What do you make of him? Okay. Yeah, you know, that's probably where I want to start at if that was a

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I would want to define the conversation. We want to be in because remember I think that was supposed to come out here at one time

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You know We've invited him out and we you know, we we want to have a Conversation with him.

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Absolutely. Yeah, and but we haven't had an opportunity But I think that's a great answer

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Because I was I would so who is Jesus and you know explain to us, you know

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You what your understanding of his work is. Yeah, and then you start there and then I think from there

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I would want to I want to start chasing him into some of these the typical Roman Catholic corners How do you hold these two things together?

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Yeah, how do you hold this together? especially especially Especially the anthropology because that was what was behind so much of his answers

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It didn't come out but that's what was behind so much of his answers is he's trying he's assuming that natural law arguments

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Apart from a transformed heart can change hearts and that's where the real issue lies And he's not in the

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Great Commission. He thinks there's a neutral ground that everyone can agree. Exactly. Exactly Yeah, that's true.

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And we and we would if we get him here in the studio one of these days Yeah, and have an hour. We'll get him in the court.

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We'll corner him We'll make you proud that time Well, it just especially with what we've got coming

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I really really I certainly have emphasized on my program a number of times the necessity to Really think through what we're going to be facing in it used to be a few years down the road

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I don't know that it's a few years down the road. I I really honestly wonder about Our Ability to do what you do to do what we do with the dividing line what you do with your program in as little as 2021 to 2025

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I really I really do Question whether we're gonna have the freedom to do this type of thing in in the future.

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It'll at least in this culture and I'll just add that of course I mean the ultimate concern of everything that we're trying to do is about the gossip across politics

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And even with our interview with Mark Charles that we did last week I mean, we're going there with Mark But one of the first things we're actually trying to do is expose the failure of their own worldview to be able to get there

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Right. That's kind of what we were trying to do with Matt Walsh that we tried to do with Mark Charles last week I mean just in back of my mind too is

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I think one of the weaknesses I Wholeheartedly agree. The gospel is the power of salvation. It's all who believe that's got to be the that's the spear point that's the power and I think that Chuck was exactly right that Matt was somewhat ashamed of That and at least when we were talking to him the one thing

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I also didn't want to leave behind though is I think Christians also need to recognize that the That the science and the history are on our side

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That's right. And so even though I agree with you that natural law and natural revelation are not sufficient to save They are our weapons.

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They're not neutral in the conversation. They're not neutral in the conversation And so I still I don't want I didn't want Matt also

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But you get the impression that we were saying that none of his arguments are worth anything, right?

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I Wanted I want to equip Christians to recognize that science is on our side is on our side natural revelation agrees with Jesus because he's the

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Lord over it, right except obviously he has the idea that Those arguments can have a power in the heart of a natural person

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Right, right and that's where he's wrong. Yeah, he thinks they're sufficient in and of them There but I just want to hold that together

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Again, I keep going back to this and I'll say this again I know that Matt Walsh is the issue in the conversation

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But to me the and you know this from being a part being one of the guys who offers a social justice statement, right?

31:55

it's guys who are the closest to us that scare me watching what happened on the panel with John MacArthur and Phil Johnson and watching that whole thing that scared me more than the situation that happens with Matt Walsh because these are guys that I think

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Ended me mo the guys. I think that we're fighting with when it comes to this mark cultural Marxism and social justice There's supposed to be part of our story yet.

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They're the first guys that thing that would drop us in the same time That's true. And so while I do see

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Matt as the issue we have an in -house fight. That's way more Because what's being compromised?

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Here's the gospel in the same way that match Matt would be compromising it too, right? You've talked about this on the show cuz

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I've listened and so I'm I have a little more concern about where we're at in camp

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You know and in the in the reform world the gospel coalition, right? Oh, I couldn't jump in a foxhole of them

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I'm more worried more worried there, even though on paper. We actually a we actually on agree on paper

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Or we've got a coalition and PCA. I feel like I could trust Matt Walsh in some instances

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I trust nobody right now Well, there's no question that Well when we're not on the air,

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I can give you some more background information about what you were talking Things you don't talk about in public shall we say

33:20

Right now Yeah, yeah, but no

33:29

I hear you and I believe me I Every day. I'm Being attacked by folks that and it's it's far far far more difficult for me to have to deal with attacks from people who

33:43

I have to accept their Christian profession than it is all the Muslims or Atheists in the world.

33:51

I don't like putting Muslims and atheists together in that way, but you get the idea non -christians

33:57

Because you have to accept their their profession of faith and deal with them as a brother at that point whether they are or not

34:02

That's not up to us to us to judge So I was going to ask one last thing and then

34:08

I want it sort of actually bridges over crosses over but you said something about Cobelligerence and allies and Seeing Roman Catholic in a certain way

34:21

Would you see a conservative believing Muslim in the same way as a

34:27

Roman Catholic? No, tap tap tap tap.

34:34

We said the connection there rich No, I can hear you it just got quiet No, he said no.

34:42

I said no Okay, not see Roman Catholics and Muslims in the same way Okay, what about in dealing with?

34:49

Transgenderism Are you asking if we would agree? Politically in one sense to do to move forward with them on an issue.

34:58

Are you asking in the sense of? cobelligerence, is there any way to look at a

35:06

Muslim Who likewise believes that there is a creator that God created male and female?

35:12

The transgenderism is a violation of the Creator's will they don't want their children exposed to this

35:18

In England, for example, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in the United Kingdom it has been in a certain area anyways

35:25

Muslim parents that have taken the lead in objecting to transgender education in the public schools

35:33

So in that situation Could there be cobelligerence?

35:39

Okay, so now I'm hearing a yes instead of okay I could be a cobelligerent with the atheists fighting the pro -life issue a pro -life atheist.

35:48

Yeah, but I also know Also know where I'm gonna maybe distrust them or not yeah or hedge my

35:56

Protect myself in that code when you when you first asked the question about Roman Catholic and Muslim I thought you just meant do

36:01

I view them theologically right? No, no, no, no, and that's no no, but in terms of cobelligerence

36:07

Yeah with regard to pro -life or you know, just Antistatism or anti -trans mutilation

36:13

Absolutely. I think the difference too is to me that we know how long we can be cobelligerent We have a historical track record that shows that Muslims are just waiting to cut our heads off And Catholics are just waiting to expel us and burn us, but they have a different trajectory in time, you know

36:27

You are just so easy to keep you know, so many people going the same direction with you chocolate that it's it's great

36:35

I know where the fall -off is what I'm saying I just I just know some

36:42

Muslims that would that would they would go I'm not interested in cutting your head off and I never would be so that's that's just why

36:49

I mentioned that in passing So they're not Muslims in oh They would argue with you about that, too

37:01

So speaking of the PCA I Think I heard some

37:16

Information recently that there's is there something going on break up on a dot. I'm sorry

37:21

I think I saw some information recently that there are people in the

37:26

PCA that want some examination to be done in regards to the church that Greg Johnson is the pastor of we haven't break up issues a

37:39

Little bit, but I think we got most of that question But um, so he's part of that that church to Greg Johnson Memorial Presbyterian in st.

37:45

Louis, right? Missouri Presbytery, yep, and Missouri Presbytery did a report

37:52

That like I think there were people within the presbytery and people without of the presbytery that asked them to do a investigation Yeah, and so that and that report just came out like last week and then

38:02

Kevin de Young's Presbytery the Carolina Presbytery did their own Committee report on it, which came out this past week.

38:09

Okay, and then I know there's I think there's a other Presbytery is working on reports to what will these reports result in?

38:20

Yeah, I'm not in the PCA so I grew up in the PCA I'm not the PCA anymore, and I don't have the inside word on what's gonna happen at Presbytery I do know that some things

38:29

I have heard a couple pastors talked about some things that they want to bring to Presbytery about Do you mean

38:34

General Assembly General Assembly? Yeah, excuse me that they're gonna bring to General Assembly about the revoice situation

38:42

But I don't know any inside track on what they want to do what they want to say and what they what if any motions

38:48

Are gonna be made the Missouri Presbytery report as I understand. It was fairly milquetoast. Well, they

38:54

Specifically their elders in that report said they wanted to protect protect Greg After the show.

39:00

Yeah after the show it Greg's own elders Greg Greg's own elders Yes, specifically in the Missouri report

39:06

The elders said that they wanted a session Greg session Greg the elders wanted to protect Greg and after our show and I think the

39:12

Report. Yeah, that was about us Yeah But I think the Missouri Presbytery report which is tasked to investigate all this came out basically

39:20

Sort of saying like well, they could have been a little bit more careful here and there But everybody else needs to be a lot nicer and there's room to agree to disagree here

39:30

It's basically they got in trouble got a smack on the hand for not communicating well enough, right? And everybody else got a smack on the hand for not being nice enough.

39:37

That's right So there's going to be another revoice conference at that same church, right?

39:44

I'm not sure if it's at the same church, but it's gonna be in st. Louis again. Definitely again. Yeah, and If I recall correctly when

39:52

I responded on Twitter to something you all had said about that It was

39:57

Oh, what's the guy's name Nate Collins Nate Collins? What was the what was the description that he had of your interview?

40:07

It was a he hated Inquisition Yeah, it was pretty bad

40:19

I remember correctly Yeah, you know the lint is kind of like a lynch mob.

40:25

That wasn't a show or interview. That was a Inquisition is what he called it up. I remember correctly. That was a condition to try and get

40:30

Greg to come out. So Well, and that was your family It was Dignifying his humanity.

40:38

Yeah question, but yeah, it was that was chocolate Knox's fault because he came straight out and said, are you gay?

40:49

So any any didn't answer he didn't answer your question he responded by saying he had a porn addiction, right?

40:57

for 15 years, although he hasn't Taken a taken part in porn for the last 15 years, so I don't know what addiction means there, but right

41:06

Yeah, I I went back and listened to it to see, you know exactly what it was all about And in fact, I think chocolate

41:12

Knox I think you gave me a an index to the video the YouTube video so I could just see exactly what it was and So he didn't answer directly now.

41:21

He's come out and and said he is a homosexual Does the PCA How can the

41:27

PCA protect him in his position? Doesn't the PCA have a rule that says if you are a homosexual, you cannot be an elder in the congregation

41:37

Well, this is the Whole revoice play you're ready for a magic trick

41:42

Which is that basically they are trying to carve out room for a homosexual identity

41:47

Which they claim they're not acting on right so we can be They're arguing that you can have this orientation you can have these homosexual desires homosexual lust

41:59

Homosexual attraction, which I hate that word but they want to carve out an identity where you can claim to be quote -unquote gay and Celibate so then

42:10

Christian, so they're not actually so that their argument is the reason why they're saying they shouldn't have to be defrocked

42:17

Or required to step down from their pastor is because they're saying well We're not actually acting on it what the

42:23

Bible actually forbids is sodomy. I'm not participating in actual sodomy Ergo, I'm fine.

42:29

I just struggle with sin like all other Christians in my sin is thought of me that I struggle with I'm tempted to thought of me

42:36

Which is probably remember you remember he's using the language orientation, right?

42:41

And so they're specifically James. Can you hear us? Yes, I can Okay, just make sure And so he's specifically trying to trying to cast this in some sort of orientation that he can have

42:52

I'm without acting out I'm just broken broke. I'm just like I'm just broken center like all the rest of you, right? I just like little boy so the the the issue then is

43:03

What isn't it? So so there there isn't an actual rule that currently exists in the

43:09

PCA that would At least not allow his initial ordination well,

43:20

I think everything comes down to definition of homosexual and so what their orientation what well what they're trying to argue for though is that that all of the all of the places that we would go to that say well, you can't be a homosexual and be

43:34

You can't be a homosexual, you know and a Christian, you know, first first Corinthians 6

43:41

Well, you know these these people will not inherit the kingdom of God But they what they're what they want to say.

43:47

Well, that means practicing Sexual as in practicing sodomy and so Greg Johnson and his friends would say but I'm not practicing that I'm just God made me

43:56

I gave me you know, I have this orientation It's part of the fall or maybe there's some elements of it that are

44:02

God -given and good because you know What we're doing what queer treasure might be in the New Jerusalem, right?

44:08

Right, right. Yeah. No, I'm well aware of what their arguments are I just was not aware of exactly how far they advanced

44:17

Within the PCA or where the PCA is a big enough group that you have variations and shades of Perspectives and I think there are yeah,

44:27

I'd assume so. I think there is a pretty broad spectrum I think there are some who are

44:32

I've heard from people personally who are very concerned about this. Yeah this as significantly bad and wrong and Want to see decisive action and then

44:42

I think it's the full spectrum from that all the way to a squishy middle that says well You know, maybe we just need to be careful more careful with the words that we're using

44:50

But they probably mean well all the way over to Greg Johnson himself and friends who are saying no we need to celebrate this we need to protect this and You know make the

45:00

PCA a safe place We've had Andrew Dionne and with Matt Foster on the show.

45:06

No, there's on the top end of the spec. Well, they just left. Well, they're gone. They left the PCA Yeah, you know, it's amazing to me, especially

45:13

I think coming from a Baptist position and perspective if you look at how Presbyterians This is as a

45:18

Baptist position. Let me jump into that world for a second how Presbyterians reason to understand infant baptism making those connections there you would think as Looking at it from a

45:28

Baptist world inside a Presbyterian world Couldn't you guys make an easy connection about homosexuality in this?

45:33

Yeah, you know You'd think yeah, you would think yeah, this would be a really easy subject, but everybody's doing so soft.

45:41

This is to our shame Well, the problem is we have too many PhDs No, no offense, no offense.

45:47

Dr. Weiss. Oh, no. No, I fully understand exactly what you're saying there is a that no, I I understand that and there is a desire on the part of many people to Be accepted by the worldly wise and this has become a dogma of our of our society and if you do not not only accept but celebrate and celebrate loudly you are a

46:09

Cultural heretic and that's why I keep saying whether it's 2021 or 2025 in one of those two years

46:19

Those who are already showing their fangs will have the political power to start biting and We're gonna find out very very quickly how many of us are going to stand firm and disappear from Social media and from almost any other way of ever being heard again

46:42

That's you know again unless unless something changes In listening to every single one of the

46:50

Democratic candidates for presidency I get the feeling that there's not a one of them that would defend religious liberty freedom speech rights over against a homosexual transgender pro -abortion

47:04

Culture of death agenda not a one of them, which is actually why I'm I'm I'm strangely hopeful

47:11

Actually, because they're so all of them are so absolutely horrible and wicked. Yeah showing their fangs

47:17

Yeah, and I think it's it's some of that it's you know, New York passing this, you know We're gonna abort babies even maybe after they're born

47:26

Illinois, Virginia, just you know rolling back a ban on partial birth abortion I think them showing their true colors is

47:33

Is waking a lot of people up and meanwhile on the flip side you got all these heartbeat bills being passed

47:39

He don't like those though, but we like them. I didn't say that I Said that's not enough.

47:46

You can't just stop there The entire society is to the wholeness of human life and conception on Dr.

47:54

White But you guys got to go listen to our show that we have Dr. White do you want to say that you would allow

48:02

Arizona to pass? Wait a minute, you know that the way you put the question

48:08

Was was meant to exclude any type of nuanced middle, you know, you put it that way

48:13

No, you know you where you put the answer was allowed to exclude a nuanced middle You all were complaining about the fact that I would actually

48:24

There was some famous guy who was on a college campus a few years ago and was trying to reason with the airheaded

48:32

Communist zealots there in front of him and one particular woman who clearly

48:40

Could not allow you to say more than five words at a time was just interrupting him constantly and eventually out of frustration

48:46

He said, you know, I do frequently have thoughts that require more than one sentence to express

48:55

And I thought that was a brilliant response and you know who said Yeah, so what was that oh

49:06

Let me cut you off right there. Okay. Yeah, I hear what As far as 2021 and 2025

49:17

And I'm I'm with you in terms of I see the lay of the land and at the same time I think wow isn't right all these bills being passed and I'm I'm actually

49:29

I'm actually hopeful that maybe God will have mercy on us and it will it will be better than Then we fear well and I'd add one thing

49:36

I mean, you know the history of the PCA they broke from the PC us right back in 1973 over liberalism coming into the church and there was a real courage there for what something 300 300

49:46

PCA churches I did that that eventually formed What was what we now know is the PCA and and we don't have that courage anymore in the

49:52

PCA You don't see pastors creating a stink like they should about the revoi situation and saying hey, this is liberalism coming in our church

49:59

How do they think it happened? I would even say in the SPC circles. You're seeing some of the same thing It's like where's the backbone of pastors?

50:06

Where's the spine? Where's the courage? you know we say on our show a lot courage begets courage and just I think a little courage will go a long way in All this and we're it's in starting to see some of it inspiring

50:16

Do you see someone else stand up and be bold with the truth of the gospel a minute? I'm gonna tell you somebody who's helped with that though And and doc this goes back to something you were talking about on our show when we had interviewed you you said it's not about What we do in 2020 is what we do in 2025 right after that was who's next but Trump has

50:31

Emboldened a lot of people on the conservative side and on the Christian side to be bold in a way that it's been shocking

50:39

And that we haven't seen and because of that doesn't God have a sense of humor. It's amazing

50:44

Isn't it hilarious amazing and because of that Christians need to be running all the plays need to be super bold Christian businesses need to Get him look the markets gonna be the best

50:53

It's probably ever gonna be for a long time if Trump is elected again. We got another five years. Let's just mark it out I agree with you doc five years everything's gonna change after that right we should run everything

51:02

Start the businesses start the investment money is gonna fly up Christians have an opportunity now to be richer than they ever been probably in American history in the last 40 years, okay?

51:12

Yeah We should be doing that because whatever comes next we're gonna need that kind of foundation that kind of rooted

51:17

Rootedness to be able to battle whatever happens after Trump well I just have to I just have to throw something out here though at this very point where you're saying that and that sounds wonderful But we are so divided

51:32

Not just over issues like revoice But now you've got the social justice movement that is absolutely paralyzing entire denominations

51:43

Yeah at the very same time. I don't think I don't think the church really likes the answer to this

51:49

It's how we disciple our kids Right it's an 18 -year problem that we have we actually

51:57

We actually started discipling. We actually one of the reasons why we have the social justice problems revoice problems all that I Didn't catch that last thing the reason we have social just problems is what?

52:11

We're breaking up again It'll come back slowly Oh Okay, I'm hearing every other word five four three

52:24

There we go two One all right all right So you've got an 18 -year problem, and then then you said something about after that and I lost it

52:34

Yeah so one of the reasons why we have a social justice problem and a revoice problem is because the church has spelled the disciple a generation to think biblically about these issues and to be able to see

52:43

Prophetically the problems that these are bringing into the church, and we've been I mean we just haven't discipled our kids

52:50

Well, we've been giving over to the public school systems for decades, and it's no wonder we have kids

52:55

You know going out into the streets shooting each other. Well. There's a father problem 18 years ago that caused the whole problem in the first place and a church is centrally responsible for that issue

53:04

We Ligon Ligon Duncan actually spoke to this on the panel. That's right, or he said the reason why he he wanted to Sort of lean in was because he was afraid of losing the young people right

53:16

And the reason why he's afraid to lose the young people is because he's not trained them I mean

53:21

I I respect the man, and I'm sure he's done great good for the kingdom But this is the kind of thing that needed to be taught to your kids when they were little yeah starting with baptizing

53:34

It's not hard I grew up in a charismatic church with a single mom

53:40

And if there was one thing that was drilled into me from my mom, it's the body I don't care how stupid you look

53:46

Okay, it's a Bible or nothing But it was that that kind of teaching turn.

53:53

Yeah, it's that kind of teaching that that made me give up the secularist world I Don't graduate the world you know

54:02

Change diapers and That's the answer imagine problem ahead of us, that's all we have if we're faithful and little raising our

54:12

Their kids They're the ones kids to go to college you know it's the family the liberal families 1 .3.

54:23

Oh, yeah, I I'd like to believe that the reproduction rate

54:30

That's gonna catch up but As I'm states giving away their voting sovereignty to undercut the electoral college yes attempt to Deconstitutionalize this

54:45

Republic I've ever seen and yet it's happening right in front of our eyes Yeah, yeah it is and You know us in the big cities will be will be in more trouble than those of you hiding out in in Idaho someplace

55:00

Who are undoubtedly probably very well very well armed Sharpening and our knives and getting our arrows ready to fire

55:06

And that's what I would add to that is that I know you're seeing that and we're seeing that too We see it

55:11

But there's something else that hasn't been seen what's really been interesting in the in the pro -life movement right now

55:17

The last 30 years God has kind of done something amazing and the 30 40 years even the pro -life movement has been

55:25

Perfecting and engaging and sharpening its weapons in its logic and its rhetoric to the point now that the liberals don't have any new arguments

55:33

They don't and so they're losing and and what we didn't see and it looks like that We're losing but we're for the first time in the long fight actually fighting and when

55:43

Underground is there's a group of people God set aside. This is his 10 ,000 He set aside when you go hide in the cave a little worried

55:50

There's 10 ,000 set aside ain't bowed beneath a bell. You know, I'm saying and so Going on there's a

55:55

Educational group of classical Christian schools that are out there that are being raised up and we haven't even seen yet What God's gonna do with them?

56:04

And so I don't think with that for all we're still graduate We got NSA out here Christian colleges that are graduating next generation of leaders

56:10

We haven't even put them into the conversation of what's that play yet? So yeah,

56:16

I think you're right and observing one side of the conversation, but there's a whole nother side God got a left hand to eat who you know

56:22

That's why churches got to get a vision of what

56:27

Christian education looked like for the kids K through 24 years old whatever it is and they got a

56:34

Start building pubs opening up coffee stores Baptizing their babies divided lines, you know

56:41

We we don't have a vision the church nationwide Generalizing here does not have a vision of what it means to educate their kids and the knowledge and fear of the

56:50

Lord through their life We don't we don't have that. We got to get it We're recovering it like not said there's examples that are being that are coming that are being pointed out where that's the case but generally speaking,

57:01

I mean 80 I Think what 80 % of Christian kids are in the public school system 80 % you know, you know, this is dr.

57:09

White show, right? Okay Okay I'm just sitting around listening in it's okay

57:17

Once y 'all start preaching it's just sort of like I'm just gonna check my phone here for a while. It's okay Here and we're good.

57:28

Yeah. All right, so 80 % of our kids of our

57:35

Christian kids And Would you say that go ahead and no, it's it's breaking up on us and we're right to get toward the top of the hour and you've been more than kind to Be with me all this time.

57:49

And have you noticed something? There's one thing last last observation. I'll make here is That when you have to talk the whole time

57:58

Without chocolate Knox's musical interludes. It makes for a much longer program On purpose that's when you take a drink is when the when the music's playing, right?

58:23

Chocolate knocks the next time you come down to Phoenix you got you gotta let us know early enough so we can we can We can get got a chair sitting right there.

58:30

We can we can bring in and And We can put a little keyboard in front of you if you want to do some

58:44

Thanks, thanks for coming on the program today. I hope I hope you enjoyed it. I hope everybody else enjoyed the conversation and So y 'all look up cross -politic if you haven't already been listening, even though I've been told

58:56

I'm not supposed to be listening to it Anyways and You know pray for all of us as we try to do

59:03

What's what's right in the eyes of the Lord and would be honoring and glorifying to his kingdom. Thanks for joining with us guys

59:09

Thank you. All right. God bless you guys. We'll see you and thank you for watching dividing line. We'll see you next time.