The Dividing Line/CrossPolitic Cross Over Show!

Welcome to the dividing line on a special dividing line on a Friday. We are joined today. It's sort of a what do they call this a mash-up? Is that what you call it crossover? Whatever it is when you put everybody together I am joined by the trio the guys that Are so famous or infamous or something depending on how you want to look at there.

They are the guys that cross politic. They are they cannot see me so I can make faces at them. I can do all sorts of things I want to do I can hold up signs that they can't see, you know, whatever but they have been kind enough to Join with us here and we've got some stuff to talk about and a lot of people are all excited about this On the on the internet.

The one thing I need to tell them that we're going to disappoint them about Immediately is we're not actually though the word got out. We're not actually having a baptism debate So I just want people to understand that.

I mean that that word got to you guys to that. We're not doing that part, right?

Wait, wait, what?

Don't tell don't tell me that cuz chocolate Knox didn't even know we were doing this half an hour ago, so.

I.

Didn't mean to do that.

And you know it. All right. Okay, let's let's get into this because all right what happened was I was over in London and you guys did a program where you interviewed Matt Walsh because I think was it because of the the exchange he had with Saitam Bruggen.

Kate. Is that what sort of got that going or what?

Thank you before that. It was before that yeah, there's there's a Matt had been going back and forth on with a number of different people and then side jumped in and then we yeah that's right, so there's there's a Thread a number of different threads that Matt was on and I just saw some of his kind of apologetics.

And I was like, oh my gosh, we got to get him on and then psych hopped on that thread. I was. Matt was specifically saying that in arguing about abortion. He didn't find it helpful to use the Bible.

Jump right in with the Bible, right, right, right. Yeah, I. I didn't know exactly what had had prompted it, but I.

So.

Honestly, I listened to the whole thing while doing crunches. Now that might impact that might impact how you how you interpret things or something like that. So if you can imagine some old guy in a hotel in London right near the Thames River.

Doing crunches listening to cross-politic. That's what was that's what was going on. So.

And.

Well when we got when I got done, I was sort of like well, uh, I don't know how to how to react to that because I mean most of it was chocolate Knox and him doing the role-playing type thing. Okay, and I listened to it again.

I'm sorry You didn't like my role play. Is that what you're saying? No, I but he you did the role-playing at first and he's trying to do his thing and then you reversed it then he turned it around reversed it and It was just so clear to me that there was a big old gap between the two of you.

So here's let's start with this question. And this was the first thing someone tweeted to me the day that it aired. That somebody had caught and that is at the beginning of the program. You referred to him as brother Matt Walsh now was that just sort of a.

You know, sometimes you just call people brother or was there a theological content to the statement.

Yes, definitely theological. I think I was.

And I ain't gonna lie. I made my hair kind of pull up on the back of my neck. But I know you don't have any hair even that. Yeah, that's the crazy part about I don't have no hair back there. And I knew that every Baptist in the world was gonna grab it and be like what the heck just happened here.

Can you say heck on this show?

Well, okay, so but it does speak to the issue because sure through that throughout the entire discussion You all are talking about the gospel. Bring the gospel to bear in the roleplay Chocolate Knox. You're you're talking about trying to bring them to the gospel.

Everybody whenever any of you, you know got to say anything because Matt Walsh does his he's you know. He's a radio guy. So he knows how to talk over everybody look like we all do if we want to but When you got a chance to speak you're talking about hey, we want this to be about the gospel.

This is the power of God in the salvation this is I change people's hearts and Matt's not going there for love nor money. And the reason is He doesn't have the same gospel you do.

Right, and and that's kind of what I felt like at the moment. I wanted to push and see okay. So I'm kind of pressing in that soft area. So dr. White you've known me. I've grown up in my Business in this industry around Todd frill, right?

So I've been around many witness encounters and shot him edit him the whole nine and Had a lot of great back conversations and learned a lot from the means of Todd and Ray Comfort. And so for me, you know, not really knowing where Matt was He I know what he professes and I wanted to push as hard as I could to see if he would be ashamed of it.

And the harder I push the more I thought. It became clear to those listening that Matt wasn't really though Ready to commit to that in any way.

Well, that's what you said at the end. You said at the end of the program you said, you know I I get the feeling he's he's you know a little bit ashamed of the gospel, right? Yeah, but but see my problem is I'm not sure how much you follow his stuff.

But Matt, I'm. I got six kids. A whole lot.

You might you might be able to with six kids. You might you might have learned to multitask. I you know. But but the point is he detests the sovereignty of God. Election. Everything that is Definitional That we would share.

He detests those things. He is a conservative believing Roman Catholic. Mass transubstantiation purgatory. Natural theology. The whole nine yards and the the. The disconnect I felt at the end of listening to The interview the first time and then again this morning was.

The issue for him is that we y 'all kept talking about the gospel, but there was never a definition of what it actually is other than. You guys are going. Hey this gospel changes hearts. This is how you can change the heart of the person who wants to kill his baby and stuff like that.

He doesn't have a transformational gospel.

But but didn't but didn't David didn't he didn't. You actually explain the gospel when you were doing the role play?

Absolutely. I mean you did. Oh, yeah. And the role play had to find it did explain it but and then he said yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with all that. Well, the fact matter is he doesn't agree with all that if he's going to mass on Sunday and He believes Christ is being represented in a propitiatory sacrifice And if he believes that the entire Semi-pelagian sacramentally based system of Work salvation and priestly absolution That's not a transformational gospel.

That's what that's why he can't possibly Agree with you because as he said as he said, I've never seen it work. Well, yeah. From evangelicals, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, there's you're right, you know.

So actually I would love to have more of that conversation with Matt. The point I was going after with Matt wasn't necessarily that one at the at the outset. I really wanted him for me. I was working my way there and what we could have had another hour like the dividing line would do.

We probably finally get there where we were at. I really just wanted to make it clear. There's only one option if you're not gonna buy onto that app option. I don't know care if you're Catholic. I don't care if you claim evangelicals.

I don't care if you don't baptize babies or do and nothing works. You don't have an answer. So I just put him in a category. I swept him in that same category. I would have swept anybody in regardless if they would claim to be a Catholic or Christian because they're denying the obvious Transforming work of the gospel even if though they might profess it right or claim it in one way that you would be comfortable with.

Right, but this is this is one of the main issues that we're dealing with though in the quote-unquote, you know dealing, you know abortion has become Absolutely front and center in our society in a way that in my entire life.

I've never seen. It's there but that has also exposed Differences in What would be broadly called the pro-life movement to sure? And especially at this point I love hearing people saying that we need to bring the gospel to bear that this is the only way to Transform hearts, but there's only one gospel that does that.

And so I would imagine that we agree that the gospel that Matt Walsh Professes to believe is not the gospel that's going to change someone's heart. Am I am I correct on that?

Right, but would we also agree that someone could believe in something? That's not right. And still be Christian, right?

But where do we okay. Flesh that out for me. How does that relate to Matt Walsh? Because I mean Matt's not just he's not just believing something. That's wrong. That's wrong. I mean, you know, you guys are wrong about baptism.

I think you're my brothers so That's not the issue. The the issue is there. There is a there is a line. Obviously, I don't believe that the baptism issue is that line by any stretch of imagination. That's why I can preach in Presbyterian churches.

And when I did the debate with with Bill Shishko. He had me preach in the OPC Church the night before on Justification. This is a great way of demonstrating. Hey, this is this is something that we were addressing as brothers.

But could I be a member at your church?

Could you be a member at apologia? You'll have to ask Jeff that question next week on the air. That in the in the in it live in studio next week. But you'd have to agree with me that in Galatians chapter 2 When Paul addresses the pseudo Delphi that are troubling the church in Galatia.

That they were in the church. They looked like us. They talked like us. They dressed like us. Yet he called them pseudo Delphi false brethren and said we didn't put up with them for even an hour. So the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

So there is a line that has to be drawn. Absolutely. And would you agree with me that if the Judaizers crossed that line in Galatia? When you look at what Rome teaches we can start with the mass. We can go the Pope.

We can go from there to purgatory. That they've gone so far beyond the the Judaizers that it's not even funny. Would we agree on that?

Yeah, I think the issue is I agree on paper. I would totally agree on paper that the Council of.

Friends.

We're getting we're getting the max headroom thing going on, unfortunately. I don't know if it's a solar flare. Or just what but oh I can hear you now. Hi. Okay.

Are we caught back up? How's this? Do you hear me? I'm hearing you. Okay. Okay, Toby start over. I was just gonna say I think we completely agree with you. On paper on paper. So what the Roman Catholic Church teaches dogma wise with the Council of Trent?

Formally.

Stated and so I mean the Council Trent anathemized the gospel. And so they went, you know on record as saying that, you know formally there are there a false church. So we agree I think completely there.

I think the issue though is one of where our individual people right so John Calvin recognized. That even though the Roman Catholic Church had formally become an Antichrist had become a false church. There were many true Christians in that false church.

And so there were still even true churches within the Roman Catholic Communion. And I think it's the same thing all the way down to the present day where not all of Israel are of it. And even even them even Paul for his harsh words in Galatians about the false brothers who are Judaizers I can't remember which letter it is.

But in another letter, he actually commends the work of a disciple who was of the circumcision party. And so even Paul. Though he condemns formally those people who hold that doctrine could still work side by side with those who in some fashion We're still associated with Judaizers.

I've had this experience many people have. I think who you meet people who are Roman Catholics. And as you talk to them, you find out like I'm I'm pretty sure you're a believer I believe like you believe in Jesus and you've got some weird stuff on the side here.

And they're wrong and they need to be corrected and I would urge them come out get out find a Bible-believing Church. But I'm I'm convinced that there are many true believers still within the Roman Catholic fold.

So is was that basically the the attitude you have toward Matt Walsh.

Well, yeah, and I would add to that part of the brother comment there is is we also I'm taking Matt's faith at face value. Faith value. Faith at face value and and so I haven't really seen any let's say Action that might make me think that he's not a believer despite his views of the gospel and his Adherence to Council Trent.

I mean, I would want an opportunity. I would want an opportunity to take so, you know chalk presents the gospel to him and Matt. You know as you said sort of said, yeah. Yeah, but then didn't think it was effective.

I mean if we had him here in the studio, we have an afternoon with him drill down. I want to push that and I want to I want to kind of I want to push the conflict that you rightly are recognizing. That the the formal doctrine dogma of Roman Catholicism flies right in the face of the the free grace of the gospel.

Yeah, I would want to press that I think in the 20-minute Midweek fix that we had for us. The main point was just to try to increase up to this. There's there's.

I.

Got the last part of hopefully have some opportunities to push him, but we did we did some more of the max headroom thing. I'm not sure if you guys are old enough to remember max headroom. Actually. Yeah the coke guy.

Something I don't remember but it was the we're the the Internet up there in. Internet's sort of a new thing up there in in Idaho, isn't it?

I.

Mean, I mean, you know pony Express stuff like that. You know, we understand you're doing the best you can. So when you when you say. When when you say you don't you don't see anything in Matt Walsh that would cause you to Not think that he is a brother.

I.

Radically defending Roman Catholic theology of the mass and and and salvation doesn't. Doesn't get included in that.

But I think that I would like to have the conversation more with him the same way that alley stuck. We really drilled down on his conversation with hell. So I was able to catch not the whole thing of that because I got six kids remember I was able to catch a little bit.

They are baptized. Hitting that stupid button.

But.

So I would love to drill down more than I think if we actually had a chance to drill down a little more other outside.

Of that conversation. We wouldn't want it. We want to chase.

Come on, you know, you know, we would go down that and eat that alive.

So know that. So then the difference between us basically is I'm going to start. With the assumption that and and maybe you haven't seen him addressing these issues.

That's my deal James. I honestly have talked to him two times and I think I've listened to him once and That's all I that's what I know. So I know he's a professing Roman Catholic. I know he's conservative.

I know he's pro-life.

That's really all I know. Okay. Yeah. Well and since I have tried to engage him He ignores me, but since I've tried to engage him and I have watched him Just just mock the concept of election and and issues like that.

I mean, I'm starting with the assumption that he is a knowledgeable professing Roman Catholic and Therefore my first idea is this is someone I need to be evangelizing. I cannot assume that we both possess the life transforming message of the gospel.

Because I don't view Rome's teaching whether you're talking about the old Tridentine Form or even the new hippie cool Frankie version, which no one knows what it means. Anyways neither one of them are actually transformational and so I'm gonna start with the need to Deal with that with him and what you're saying is without that knowledge of his background.

That's not where you're gonna start. You're gonna start with sort of a hopeful assumption and.

And I've met so many I've met so many Roman Catholics I guess in my experience and and maybe these are just exceptional things, but I've met so many where I I'll lay I'll point out some of the differences and and they and those same.

I'm I'm I'm not. I mean, I believe the gospel and I'm sort of confused by that. Yeah, but I also think well the the church is a messy place.

Actually and my great example of this I did a and he's good friends with somebody who we know. Doc did Alan Keyes, right. And Alan Keyes to me blows my mind because here is a Catholic. And at that time I hadn't met too many a few but you hear Alan Keyes talk about the gospel of Jesus Christ.

He's sit there and say this man is Schizophrenic or something. I don't understand how this these two worlds live together in the same way.

I know I know I I sat it. I sat at dinner with him. In November of 2017 I think and everyone else the table just sort of ended up wandering away because we were in a Deep conversation about the Marian dogmas of the Roman Catholic Church.

It took it took about three sentences till we were into it. That's just that's just how fast it happened and He is he he may he may call himself Orthodox. But you and I both know from a Roman Catholic perspective He's way too independently minded to actually be Orthodox as far as I met like that years ago.

And I think of 2007 I think that was and then after that I started meeting now. There's a weird branch of Catholic to which is the charismatic Catholic people, right? Now those are the ones that act like evangelicals and they use all the altar Stuff at the altar and they burn that stuff at the Catholic Church and but yet they still want to be a part of the Catholic Church and so it's messy for me to in that sense.

I know these guys I don't know why they're still there. I think they have some bad understanding of what the church is. Ecclesiology is an issue for a lot of these guys. But I'm I'm careful. I treat care.

I treat Catholics almost like I treat charismatic. I need to know you talk to you understand what you mean by stuff before I start casting down judgment now. Listen doc if you and me want to get together and start a Presbyterian Council to start calling these guys out.

I'm with that.

Well.

It's just just for me given the close. Look, here's here's what I see coming.

I I.

See global Christianity moving south as the center of things right now. We see a lot of growth in South America in Africa. There's a lot of problems in Africa. But anyway, I.

I.

See the kingdom growing and expanding around the world and yet I also see Western culture under a tremendous amount of judgment. I can't imagine how else anyone can describe a culture that can start injecting hormones into eight-year-old boys to turn them into little girls.

Like that, I mean that is just that is if that doesn't fulfill if you don't love the truth. You'll be caused to love a lie. I don't know what does so the point is in the future. Unless the Lord makes a has something really change.

We are going to be pushed into a smaller and smaller portion of. We lost you there. There we go. I lost me. We're gonna be pushed into a much smaller and smaller portion of the culture and That means we're we're gonna be we have to we have to know.

Because we're gonna be pushed tighter and tighter together with Roman Catholics. We have to think through these issues extremely carefully and Especially in the broad pro-life movement quote-unquote, whatever however you want to define that we are forced to work with one another and to communicate with one another and as a result.

The questions are going to be coming. I'm seeing a lot of evangelicals who have adopted the perspective that says, you know, what let's not worry about that gospel stuff. Let's yeah Trinity Deity Trinity deity of Christ.

Crucifixion resurrection that's good enough. That's that's the the basic Christianity model and There's too many questions about the gospel. Let's leave it off to the side that has already taken over.

I think a large portion of what used to be called evangelicalism.

Yeah.

Presbyteries are a good way to handle a lot of definitions. Yeah, I think the the distinction I want to make is between allies and co-belligerents. Yeah, and and so I think we can we can have co-belligerents.

Who are not we're not with us in the gospel, but who want to fight transgender mutilation and the butchering of babies. Who aren't allies because we know that the central power? To accomplish to defend life and to redeem life is the gospel, right?

And.

The thing that scares me the most aren't the Catholics in this situation, it's always the truth. It's us. It's evangelicals. I'm more concerned about in a lot of ways because that's where the ball's really been dropped it in a lot of.

Ways.

Catholics have been doing things to our shame and and holding the line in a lot of areas where if we were there They wouldn't even be in this conversation right now. There shouldn't be a need for a Matt Walsh.

Yeah, that's our shame.

To our shame, you know, I can think of some areas, but I can also recognize that. The current trajectory of the leadership of the Roman Church is away from that. I mean if you've read In the what is it in the closet of the Vatican that just came out a few a few months ago the the lavender mafia the the clear documentation of the large proportion of homosexuals in the in the leadership of the Roman Catholic Church.

Surprised.

Yeah, and that and that obviously is resulting in. You know when the Pope can sit on his plane and say homosexuals who am I to judge? And the rest of the rest of the world goes what? Something something's going on there That I'm not sure what that's gonna end up, you know, you know resulting in but it just I want before we move on I just want to make sure because The the discussion was about we all agree that what needs to be brought to bear is the Transforming power of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

This is the only power that's been given to us. It is the only power that there's no power on earth that can possibly resist this and my my concern was Someone listening to that might not Recognize that there were two understandings of the gospel.

Only heard one dot. Well, yeah, he doesn't yeah. You'll notice that the reason that he said that doesn't work or I've not seen that. You know that pragmatic thing is the man-centered gospel that he has doesn't change hearts and minds.

That's exactly right.

One gospel and that whatever that they how are they might think of it? I believe the supernatural power of hearing that alone is enough to transform their heart.

Yes, but let's let's just. But did Matt but did Matt hear that? That's that. That would be another question. You wanted to. I know you want to have more time with him. I get that.

I understand that you know this too. Sometimes when you're talking to the person you're really talking to the audience. So Matt was just there a lot of times to be there in one sense that we're having a conversation.

But there's a point and you know this from open-air preaching where it might be the guide three three rows down for you. You know, I mean and so sometimes you have the conversation with the person that's there, right?

But man, you're trying to hit the whole audience and you say which dog is going to yell the loudest, you know. In a situation sometimes it's up and you know this from hosting the show. It's not always about what's in front of you.

It's what's behind and where you're trying to you know.

Who else you're trying to hit in that conversation? Oh, yeah, I I hear it and that's why when when I got done with it I was like Let's talk about that. But somehow that wasn't one of the 20 questions that I got.

Across politic anyway, you shouldn't be listening to it. I don't know.

That got ducked ducked for some reason so, okay, so. If you got a chance to have Matt Walsh on again Yeah, what would you do? What would you say to him? Oh, my first question is what does he make of Jesus Christ?

Okay, just start at the beginning. Start at the beginning. What is who is Jesus? What do you make up? Okay. You know, that's probably where I want to start at. If that was a simplified I would want to define the conversation.

We want to be in because remember I think that was supposed to come out here at one time, you know.

We've invited him out and we you know, we've we want to have a Conversation with him. Absolutely. Yeah, and but we haven't had duty. But I think that's a great answer because I would so who is Jesus and you know explain to us.

You know what your understanding of his work Is and then you start there and then I think from there I would want to I want to start chasing him into some of These the typical Roman Catholic corners. Sure this up.

How do you hold these two things together? How do you hold this together?

Especially especially. Especially the anthropology because that was what was behind so much of his answers. It didn't come out but that's what was behind so much of his answers. Is he's trying. He's assuming that natural law arguments Apart from a transformed heart can change hearts and that's where the real issue lies.

He's not in the Great Commission. He's here. He thinks there's a neutral ground that everyone can. Exactly exactly. Yeah, that's true. And we and we would if we get him here in the studio one of these days.

Yeah, and have an hour. We'll get him in the court. We'll corner him.

We'll make you proud that.

Well.

It just Especially with what we've got coming. I really really I certainly have emphasized on my program a number of times the the necessity to Really think through what we're going to be facing in. It used to be a few years down the road I don't know that it's a few years down the road.

I I really honestly wonder about Our ability to do what you do to do what we do with the divine line what you do with your program in as little as 2021 to 2025. I I really I really do Question whether we're gonna have the freedom to do this type of thing in in the future.

It'll at least in this culture and.

I'll just add that of course I mean the ultimate concern of everything that we're trying to do is about the gossip across politics. And even with our interview with Mark Charles that we did last week I mean, we're going there with Mark.

But one of the first things we're actually trying to do is expose the failure of their own worldview to be able to get there. Right. That's kind of what we're trying to do with Matt Walsh that we tried to do with Mark Charles last week.

Yeah, I mean just in back of my mind too is I think one of the weaknesses I wholeheartedly agree. The gospel is the power of salvation all who believe that's got to be the that's the spear point. That's the power and I think that Chuck was exactly right that Matt was somewhat ashamed of That and at least when we were talking to him the one thing I also didn't want to leave behind though is I think Christians also need to recognize that the.

The science and the history are on our side. That's right. And so even though I agree with you that natural law and natural revelation are not sufficient to save. They are our weapons. They're not neutral in the conversation.

They're not neutral in the conversation. And so I still I don't want I didn't want Matt also.

But.

Get the impression that we were seeing that none of his arguments or were anything, right?

I.

Wanted. I want to say Christians to recognize that science is on our side is on our side. Natural relation agrees with Jesus because he's the Lord over it, right.

Except obviously he has the idea that Those arguments can have a power in The heart of a natural person right. And that's where he's wrong.

Yeah, he thinks there's sufficient in and of them and he's wrong there. But I just want to hold that together again. I keep going back to this and I'll say this again.

I know that Matt washes the issue in the conversation. But to me the and you know this for being a part being one of the guys who offers a social justice statement, right? It's guys who are the closest to us that scare me watching what happened on the panel with John MacArthur and Phil Johnson and watching that whole thing that scared me more than the situation that happens with Matt Walsh.

Because these are guys that I think Ended me ammo the guys. I think that we're fighting with when it comes to this mark cultural Marxism and social justice. There's supposed to be part of our story yet.

They're the first guys that thing that would drop us in the same time. That's true. And so while I do see Matt as an issue We have an in-house fight. That's way more. Because what's being compromised here's the gospel in the same way that match Matt would be compromising it too, right?

You've talked about this on the show because I've listened. And so I'm I have a little more concern about where we're at in camp.

You know and in the reform world the gospel coalition, right? Oh, I couldn't jump in a foxhole of them. I'm more worried more worried there, even though on paper. We actually a we actually on agree on paper or Coalition and PCA.

I feel like I could trust Matt Walsh in some instances, but I don't trust them when we're up again.

I ain't trust nobody right now.

Well, there's no question that. Well when we're not on the air, I can give you some more background information about what you're talking. Things you don't talk about in public shall we say.

Yeah.

Yeah, but no I hear you and I believe me I Every day. I'm Being attacked by folks that and it's it's far far far more difficult for me to have to deal with attacks from people who I have to accept their Christian profession than it is all the the Muslims or Atheists in the world, I don't like putting Muslims and atheists together in that way, but you get the idea non-christians.

Because you have to accept their their profession of faith and deal with them as a brother at that point whether they are or not. That's enough to us to judge. So I was going to ask one last thing and then I want to it's sort of actually bridges over crosses over but you said something about Cobelligerence and allies and Seeing Roman Catholic in a certain way.

Would you see a conservative believing Muslim in the same way as a Roman Catholic? No. Tap tap tap tap. We said the connection there rich. No, I can hear you it just got quiet.

No, Toby said no. I said no.

Okay, not see Roman Catholics and Muslims in the same way.

Okay, what about in dealing with? Transgenderism.

Are you asking if we would agree? Politically in one sense to do to move forward with them on the issue. Are you asking in the sense of?

Cobelligerence, is there any way to look at a Muslim Who likewise believes that there is a creator that God created male and female? The transgenderism is a violation of the Creator's will. They don't want their children exposed to this.

In England, for example, I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but in the United Kingdom it has been in a certain area anyways Muslim parents that have taken the lead in objecting to transgender education in the public schools.

So in that situation Could there be cobelligerence? Okay, so now I'm hearing a yes instead of yeah, okay.