March 13, 2017 Show with Barry Horner on “The Pilgrim’s Progress Themes & Issues: An Evangelical Apologetic (A Needed Message in the 21st Century in Contrast to the Heresies of ‘THE SHACK’)”

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Now here's our host, Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming. This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you a happy Monday on this 13th day of March 2017, and a beautiful sunny day here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, but hours away from a predicted blizzard that we are supposed to be having here, not only here but in many parts of the

Northeast, and please pray for all the residents of the Northeast, wherever you may live, especially the elderly and others who will have a rougher time should we have this blizzard, as is predicted, and some are even predicting this to be the worst blizzard in the history of the

Northeast, so if you could pray for us, at least in New York, that is, and Pennsylvania, perhaps as well.

But today we have returning to the program somebody that I urge you to invite to your own church or have your pastors invite to your own church, or if you hear about him speaking anywhere within reasonable traveling distance from where you are, the guest

I am speaking of is Dr. Barry Horner, founder of Bunyan Ministries and Future Israel Ministries, and today we are going to be discussing the

Pilgrim's Progress themes and issues, an evangelical apologetic, and this is a very timely subject in light of the fact that a movie has just been released on another allegory called the shack, but an abysmal failure in regards to trying to have any kind of a genuinely biblical theme, and it has been actually astonishingly compared, favorably compared, with the

Pilgrim's Progress. It's been called a modern day Pilgrim's Progress, but as we will learn today, that nothing could be farther from the truth.

But it's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron, Dr. Barry Horner. Hello, it's very good to be with you, and I couldn't agree more with your comments about the shack.

Frankly, what we're seeing is allegorical devolution, downgrade, you know, and one other thing

I'll just mention quickly, actually just a week ago I returned from Australia and I gave a seminar in Sydney on the

Pilgrim's Progress, so distance is not always a problem. Yes, and I can tell you that Barry Horner does a lecture on or presentation on the

Pilgrim's Progress, or as he calls it the Pilgrim's Progress, and I have sat through two -hour presentations, three -hour presentations, and I've sat through them probably five to six times at least that Dr.

Horner has conducted, and even though I've seen him do this presentation that many times, I was never once bored,

I was never once thinking that this was mundane material that I have heard already repeated too much, because he does, you know, change it up a bit when he does these conferences or lectures or presentations, and obviously the facts always remain the same, but he does change them up a bit in regard to the presentation, and I just cannot sing

Dr. Horner's praises enough when it comes to this subject especially, and he is considered by many to be one of the greatest living scholars on John Bunyan and the

Pilgrim's Progress. I know that he's embarrassed to hear me say that, but it just happens to be true. And first of all, let's hear something about you personally,

Dr. Horner. Tell us about your upbringing, what faith or religion you were raised in, if any, and how you came to know the living

God yourself through the providence and sovereign grace that he surrounded you with.

Well, to begin with, of course, probably people pick it up, I'm Australian, and my accent reveals that.

I was born in Melbourne, Australia, and then I was converted also in Melbourne.

Billy Graham had quite an influence. He had a very significant crusade in Australia. It was his first one there, and that's when really

I made open profession of my saving faith in Christ. Then after being married, then my wife and I, we sailed across the

United States to study, and I studied at three institutions, and my doctorate ministry project actually at Westminster Seminary in Southern California was based wholly on Pilgrim's Progress, John Bunyan, and 17th century

Puritanism. I should mention, however, back in Australia, my first encounter with Pilgrim's Progress was as a five -year -old, and my elder sister brought me home one afternoon, but she said, we're not going straight home, we're going to a local

Baptist Church, and there I watched and I was gripped by a colored lantern slide presentation on the

Pilgrim's Progress. I never forgot it. It was a lasting impression, and my sister tells me the same.

She can remember that very vividly, but having come to study in America, I've always, in pastoral settings, always wanted to teach people about the

Pilgrim's Progress, and so the whole matter has evolved, and it's grown, and there are books now published on it.

I've got a study manual, my own version of Pilgrim's Progress, and so on, and it's just evolved, and the website gives you a lot of information, including the whole of the works of Bunyan.

Three volumes are all up there, lovely pictures, the oldest style line drawings, they're all there. So that's it, and I never ceased to enjoy it, even when

I was in Sydney just a couple of weeks ago. I love to teach it, because the

Pilgrim's Progress is so full of Scripture, that's what really counts. Amen, and we will be repeating this information throughout the broadcast,

God willing, but for those of you who would like to look up this information later, and I urge you to do so, you could go to bunyanministries .org,

B -U -N -Y -A -N, ministries .org, that has nothing to do with a foot disorder, this is to do with John Bunyan, the world -renowned 17th century preacher and author of the

Pilgrim's Progress, or Progress, however you may pronounce that, that's bunyanministries .org,

B -U -N -Y -A -N, ministries .org. And before we go into the

Pilgrim's Progress itself, the most well -known work by John Bunyan, as I said, the 17th century evangelist, tell us something about John Bunyan himself.

I know that he was a tinker, which means a mender of pots and pans, that he was not educated very highly, or he was not formally educated in any way that would bring esteem upon himself, but he was a brilliant man who was very biblically literate and very obviously gifted with both speech and the pen that gained him such a reputation that even the great

John Owen, his contemporary, actually invited

John Bunyan to preach from his pulpit, and John Owen was known for receiving many high levels of degrees in education and so on, and many accolades within formal education.

But if you could continue with a description of who this John Bunyan was. We have to place

John Bunyan right in the center of a very turbulent 17th century. He's born in 1628,

Pilgrim's Progress is published in 1678, and then he goes to be with the

Lord in 1688. He was not formally educated, he had less than a high school education.

Although he was very well read, you read his works, he quotes many authors that he'd obviously simply learned of himself.

He was firstly a member of Cromwell's army, he fought for a little while, but he was a mender of pots and pans.

Yet although, again, he never went to Oxford, I believe, frankly, perhaps if he'd gone to Oxford University it would have spoiled him, because he was such an original man, gifted in many ways, his mind was very sharp.

Anyway, he so affected England at that time, he could speak in London, about two hours notice, he could get a thousand people to him preach.

There's the famous story, you've alluded to it, about John Owen, who asked John Bunyan to preach in his church.

They obviously had, I think, some friendship, and he preached in this church of Owen's, a very aristocratic church in London.

And after the king heard of it, and King Charles heard about it, and he said to Dr.

Owen, he says, please Dr. Owen, how could you possibly have such an unlearned tinker preach in your church?

And to this Dr. Owen very humbly responded, please your majesty, if I had that tinker's ability to preach the gospel,

I would give up all my learning. Wow, that's something. That is quite a profound thing to say, quite a humble thing to say as well.

Yes. I think this is a lesson to be learned. I know I'm going to probably offend some of my brethren listening from some of the

Presbyterian denominations and other Pato Baptist denominations that require a certain level of seminary education for a person to be ordained.

I would think that someone the likes of John Bunyan, and even Charles Spurgeon, would give them pause, reason for pause on that note, because if somebody could prove themselves to be an able minister by what he knows and by his abilities that have been given to him by God, wouldn't you think that it is an unbiblical thing to require such a thing as a seminary degree?

I would agree totally. I've got two seminary degrees, of course, but I need them.

Other people don't need them, but the main thing is are they spiritually called?

Are they gifted? And usually this comes from people who hear a person speak, and they encourage you to keep speaking.

That's what happened to Bunyan, I'm sure, that he began to speak, and it was very acceptable, so it was encouraged.

And so we have to look out for young men who we notice are very gifted, and they may go and study, they may not.

Dr. Lloyd -Jones never had formal theological or seminary training. Although he was a licensed doctor, though, a physician.

Yeah, sharply trained there, of course, in the medical profession. Really, frankly, a brilliant physician, really.

So he had that background, and that enabled him then to really enter into the Scriptures.

But he didn't need the seminary training. Spurgeon, too, was so self -taught, reading all the time, that he didn't need to go to seminary.

It might have spoiled him, too, frankly. So I agree with you, but there are others like myself,

I think we need some help there, and that's it. But again, we've got to be careful. There's another problem here.

We go to seminary and think we're a preacher, you know. A man who goes to seminary and gets a

Master Divinity, that doesn't mean he's called at all, you know. If a man's called, it will help him, but it doesn't mean he's called.

And I was in seminary, and I've seen men. In fact, I was in a class, a preacher's class at seminary, and a young man got up to preaching class, and at the end of it, the professor very boldly said to him, young man, you're not called to the ministry.

Wow. And everyone was shocked in the class, you know. But he told us later, he said,

I went and spoke to him personally and tried to comfort him, but he said, I am responsible for churches, not just for the men in the classes here.

And he says, if I'm going to recommend men to go out into churches, I've got to be sure there's some degree of call there.

Amen. Well, yeah, and by the a number of seminary professors and presidents.

So I don't want to give anybody the idea that I'm denouncing seminary education. I am just saying that whenever you go above and beyond what the scriptures require, it seems to me a wrong approach.

And one of those things is a requirement that somebody has a seminary degree to be ordained when that is not even a requirement in the

Bible. Right. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. And of course, and that is also not to mean that I think that anybody that says that they have a calling or believe that they want to be a pastor,

I don't believe that they necessarily are meeting the requirements either, because there are biblical requirements as set out in Timothy and other places.

But so what do we know of Bunyan's own upbringing as a child and what led him to believe that he had a calling to be a preacher himself?

Well, it's not really the fact that he had a very godly background in his family.

It wasn't until he was at marriage age that he was then attending a church in a place called

Elster. It was an Anglican church just less than a mile south of Bedford. And he attended there, and he tells us he tried self -improvement and he endeavored to be obedient to what he heard in the church there at Elster, but he wasn't converted.

He tells us that very much. And he married, and the girl, the young lady that he married at that time had a very godly father.

And he left to his daughter two books, two very highly esteemed

Puritan books. And she had them, and lo and behold, of course, her new husband, he read them, and he tells us that he liked them.

And so those books were helpful. There was another very godly non -conformist pastor called

John Gifford, and he influenced Bunyan enormously with his preaching and counsel.

And so these were things that really, really influenced him.

He was reading the Bible. He tells us to begin with, he couldn't understand Paul. Later on, then he writes later on and says, oh, how he loves

Paul. You know, so he's reading the Bible, he's growing, and he's really considering the truth of the gospel.

But he's very sensitive to his own life, the imperfections, the carnality of his own life, and so forth.

And some of his friends were very ungodly. These were great tensions he was facing. But ultimately, of course, he saw the gospel in the

Word of God as a sinner, and he rejoiced in it. And I might add here that while he was a friend of John Owens, he was probably more influenced by Martin Luther, and especially

Luther's commentary on Galatians. And you can see this too when

Bunyan writes on justification through faith alone and so forth. And he writes a

Galatians, he says, I call Galatians that epistle my Katie Von Bora. And what he means is, as his wife was named

Catherine Von Bora, he was married to, and he was wedded to Galatians. He loved Galatians because in it the emancipation through the gospel comes through very strongly.

And as a man who could see people in all their religious bondage around him, you know, and then he sees the gospel, the free grace, then he is liberated and he rejoices in it.

Now when you say he was influenced more by Luther than John Owen, I think that you probably should make it clear though that he was not more influenced by 17th century

Lutheranism than he was Calvinism. Oh yes, when

I say Luther, I mean 16th century Lutheranism. Because Lutheranism began to become more formal and creedal, he wouldn't have been for that at all, you know.

But he read Luther, that's the point, and therefore in reading Luther, he goes back to the 16th century, he loves

Galatians. He feels so empathetic with the struggles that Luther went through too.

His Commentary on Romans and so forth, he tells of his struggles, you know. And I think that Bunyan empathized with Luther's struggles, and then the freedom, the great rejoicing that came through the knowledge of the gospel.

Amen. And he was, if not a Reformed Baptist, because that term didn't even exist back then, but he was a

Calvinistic pastor who was Baptistic, I guess is the best way to describe it.

Am I correct there? Yeah, exactly right. In fact, to be honest, brother,

I usually call myself Baptistic, and I call myself Baptist with a small b, you know what

I mean? Because I don't beat a drum, you know, if I'm a Baptist or something like that. I am

Baptistic in my principles. And Bunyan was the same. I must say he's been a tremendous mentor for me, because he's an individualist.

You cannot box Bunyan into some sort of theological system.

You can't do that. For instance, he was definitely Baptist. He was baptized in the River Ouse there in Bedford there.

But there was one area where he differed from some of his Baptist friends in London. He believed that membership in the church he pastored came through a sole, careful examination of a profession of faith.

He wanted to be sure that you're regenerate, you're born again, there's a lifestyle change, and you're really a changed person, a new creature.

He wanted to go into that very carefully. And if you were that way, if he was convinced you're truly a

Christian, then he believed membership could follow immediately. Now he, of course, believed in baptism by immersion, and he would recommend that after you become a member.

But some of his friends down in London, they didn't like that, because they believed you've got to be baptized first, then membership follows.

So you can't nail him down. He was his own man. He was a Calvinist, without a doubt.

He speaks against what he calls free willers. And he was very much against the

Arminianism that manifested itself often in the Church of England. And so very much, he was a sovereign grace man.

But you can't nail him down just exactly in some sort of cradle box.

Now, I know that the 1689 or Second London Baptist Confession, as it is also called, came into print after or just before Bunyan's death.

But he was alive for at least 40 years while the First London Confession was available and had been adopted by many churches.

Do you know if he had any confessional leaning in that way?

Did he have an official confessional stance on the First London Confession? Well, yeah. To be perfectly honest,

I think he's more aligned to the First London Confession. His views on cabinet theology, again, are rooted more in Luther than they are on the

Westminster Confession, the Divines down there. He is very much, as I said, an individualist.

And the 1644 Confession, I believe, I'm just pulling this out the top of my head, I think there is listed there a person with the initials

J .B. Now, we're not sure. It may be a John Burton or, you know, who knows. But there's a

J .B. there. Could it have been John Busby, my co -host? Well, anyway, there's a

J .B. there. We can't be sure. We can't be dogmatic about who that is. There's ideas, speculations.

But it's just that I think that Bunyan would be more of a

First London Confession. Because, let's face it, the Second Confession, 1689

Confession, is basically a Westminster hybrid with adjustments for those who are

Baptistic. And that systematizing there in that Confession, I don't quite see as much in Bunyan.

Now, why was he arrested and imprisoned, no less, during the height of his ministry?

Well, yeah, that's very interesting. He became really what has been called a prisoner of conscience.

And he was at a FAR meeting on the east side of Bedford, I think, out a few miles there.

He was at this FAR meeting, a house meeting there. And there were quite a number of people gathered there.

They loved to hear him. They would come. And anyway, he stands up and he's praying, really, and about to start speaking.

And there's a knock at the door. And the door's open. There's the local constable with some other men there.

And, Mr. Bunyan, you're under arrest because, and the term I use was, this is an unlawful conventicle.

This is an unlawful gathering. Because the only lawful gathering there was Church of England. And that's some of the tyranny of the time.

Can you imagine if our government said, the only church you can go to is this? Well, that's what was going on there.

I can very easily envision that happening within my lifetime, though not because of a denominational theocracy, but because of a political theocracy that denies the essentials of the faith, especially denies the prohibitions against homosexuality and many other things.

And I could see a time coming when the government would be knocking at our door and arresting our ministers. Well, that's true.

History often repeats itself. And anyway, Bunyan's taken off to prison. Now, there are a couple of trials that he attended, but eventually he was imprisoned.

Because when he was in prison, he was there for 12 years. And they said to him, look, you can come out anytime you want to.

All you have to do is agree that when you go out, you won't be preaching. Because after all, you're not qualified.

You haven't been to seminary and so forth. And the Anglican ministry, that's the only one that counts.

And John Bunyan refused to do that. That's why he was a prisoner of conscience, because he could have got out if he'd bowed to the government and the monarchy.

Well, anyway, he was there for 12 years. He got out occasionally, very short, but he was there for 12 years.

And that's it. He said, I will stay here, even if it leads to moss growing on my upper lip.

He said, if I have to stay here. And remember the tension, the terrible trial.

He has a wife and four children. He has one called Little Blind Mary. And they come and visit him in prison.

They do that. Now, the local church where he'd been attending and ministering, they supported.

I think they helped his wife and children. And John got some help there. But he was insistent.

What a test of character there is with his family out there. But he was in prison for 12 years.

And he writes in the middle of it, you know, he writes a Pilgrim's Progress, you know, and he uses the language.

You read his autobiography called Grace Abounding. He says, you know, he says, I stick like food in the teeth of lions.

And they were so aggravated. Well, after 12 years, we get a change in the government's attitude.

He gets released and he then becomes accepted as a nonconformist preacher and so forth, you know.

But he was a very able man. He, for instance, said to have taken a leg off a chair in prison.

He bored a hole through it. Then he bored some holes down along it and made a sort of a flute out of it, you know.

He also in prison, he took leather and cut it into strips to be shoelaces.

And he would sell these. He wanted them to be sold because he could raise money for his family.

So, you know, he's a remarkable man. Amen. And so, while in prison, he writes the

Pilgrim's Progress. Yes, that's right. Amazing, yes. And how long did it take him to write this book?

Well, we don't know. He was probably in the midst of his minutes.

We're not sure of the times except we're pretty sure that was written in prison. And I don't know how long.

There's one place there. You see, it opens up, you know, I dreamed and so forth.

And then halfway through, and then it reads, and I woke from my dream. And then the next section starts immediately.

And so I dreamed again. And that probably suggests that there was a slight interlude of release, maybe.

I'm not sure what that break was there in the middle. But nevertheless, he writes it. And he writes it, you know, there's other pastors in prison.

There's others there too being incarcerated for their faith. And so he talks with them and he shares it with them.

And some of them said, no, you don't do that. You can't write an allegory about the Bible. Let's not do that at all.

But others said, yes, yes. And so anyway, and it's thought that it got to John Owen.

And the thought is that John Owen gave it a thumbs up. The reason we say that is that when it was published, it was published by a man called

Nathaniel Ponder. And Ponder also was John Owen's publisher.

So it's a guess there, but it could well be that Owen had said, use my publisher because he seems to have given his agreement it was worth publishing.

At least anyway, Bunyan thought, well, we've got difference of opinion. Let's publish it and see what happens.

Well, of course, it takes off, you know, and we know that from history. Well, we're going to pick up right where we left off there.

And if anybody would like to join us with a question of your own for Dr. Barry Horner, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnzen, if you just tuned us in. Our guest today is Dr. Barry Horner. We are discussing the great

John Bunyan, a 17th century hero of the Christian faith who is most well known for his book

The Pilgrim's Progress, but he has written, or had, I should say, written a number of other works that we will mention in a bit.

But if you'd like to join us on the air with a question for Dr. Barry Horner regarding either the life of John Bunyan himself or on The Pilgrim's Progress, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com,

chrisarnzen at gmail .com, and we do have a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked and answered.

But before I go to them, Dr. Horner, we just reached the point when Bunyan was released from prison and his book

The Pilgrim's Progress is in print, and it's after he was released from prison that eventually

Owen, John Owen, invites him to preach at his pulpit, correct? That's correct, yes.

And tell us a bit about what a nonconformist is, because I believe, wasn't

John Owen himself a nonconformist? Well, John Owen was really originally, of course, he was

Anglican because he was vice -regent of Oxford University, but then he became Presbyterian, then he became more nonconformist congregational, really, and so he really moved from the

Anglican Church to Presbyterianism to the Congregational group, and therefore they especially, the

Congregationalists believed in the independency of the local church, not being related to a synod or anything like that, and they really were not unlike the

Baptists in that regard in terms of independency. Of course, the nonconformist Congregationalists, they would be into Peter Baptism and the

Baptists were into immersion, but nevertheless, a nonconformist, in essence, would not conform to the demands of a state church, the

Church of England, and that's it. They were prepared to go to prison, they were prepared to be thrown out of their

Anglican churches and just preach wherever they could, but they would not submit to the tyranny of a state church, so they would not conform to what that state church required.

They wanted independency and not the interference of the monarchy or the government.

And although John Bunyan is often referred to as being a Puritan, he was not technically a

Puritan, it's more that he echoed their theology in many respects and some of their other peculiarities, and I say that in a very favorable way.

Well, you're absolutely right there, because Puritanism and its origin, of course, comes out of the Church of England.

There were those in the Church of England who wanted to reform it and have a more pure church there, and they had great struggles, and a lot of them were thrown out, and then the word

Puritanism took on a broader meaning, and I could call

Bunyan a Puritan in this broader sense, because he's very much non -conformist, but he was not afraid to have some

Anglican friends, Anglican vicars. If an Anglican vicar still in the Church of England was truly a saved person and really believed in the gospel with all his heart, then

Bunyan would communicate with him and enjoy fellowship. There was one such man called

William Dill, he had a church north of Bedford there, and actually that vicar asked

Bunyan to preach on Christmas Day, and Bunyan went up there, he preached on Christmas Day and had a great meal afterwards there, and then some of the people at the church there criticized their vicar again for having this unlearned so -called

John Bunyan come up and speak there, but the vicar stood to his guns. He really upheld having

Bunyan there, and upheld him as a man of God, and wouldn't even hesitate to recommend him.

So Bunyan was sort of a Puritan -lite, if you want to call it, and that's it.

He believed in the independence of the local church very much. Well, and I know that he went home to be with the

Lord at 60 years of age. Anything remarkable about that, or was it just an average going to home to be with the

Lord in your sleep, or something of that effect? Well, the circumstances, you know, are interesting. Up in Bedford, John Bunyan was approached by a young man who was really separated from his father.

There was a disagreement, and the young man asked John Bunyan, when he went down toward London, would he stop by at Reading and speak with his father, because the son wanted to be reconciled with his father.

So John Bunyan agreed to go down. He met with the father in Reading there, and apparently I think it worked out well.

There was reconciliation agreed to. So John Bunyan then gets on his horse, and he goes eastward.

He goes toward London, but the weather's very bad, and he gets to a friend.

I think his name is Stradbroke. Anyway, gets to a friend's house down there. He has to rest. He's got the flu.

He's got really got it bad, and he dies in the home there. He actually, of course, was buried there in London in what's called

Bunhill Fields, and it was a tragedy at 60. In those days, of course, 60 was a pretty good age to reach, but nevertheless, let me just tell you, when he passed away, for instance, an elegy was read concerning him, and this is what it said.

He and the pulpit preached truth first, and then he and his practice preached it o 'er again, and that really speaks of the real character of Bunyan.

He was a man of God. He just didn't teach the scripture, but he also embodied it in his life, and he was truly a model, and I have taken him as a mentor for myself.

I've learned a lot from him in so many ways, and I would encourage other pastors to look at John Bunyan as a model for their ministry, and so there it is.

That's how he passed away, but the legacy of was enormous after his passing away.

And how many books did he write in total, at least that were published? Roughly about 50, I think it is, in approximately that number, and he writes,

I mean, again, I invite you to go to the website. You've got the three -volume set, the

George Offer set of the works of Bunyan, and you've got it all there, basically. There's a new

Oxford edition, but, you know, still, this version on the website there has basically got what's important.

It's all there, and including the Holy War, that's a classic.

You've got grace abounding to the chief of sinners, that's a classic, a remarkable testimony, honest telling of his struggles before he's converted, his struggles after he's converted, and then somewhat stability finally coming to him in his life.

Amen. Well, that website, again, is bunyanministries .org, B -U -N -Y -A -N ministries .org.

Now, let's get to the Pilgrim's Progress itself. It is known as an allegory.

If you could tell us in more detail, for those of our listeners unfamiliar with that term, what is an allegory, and what is this an allegory of specifically?

Well, it's an attractive story representation of Bible truth, but when it's a story representation, it uses sort of metaphor and simile and illustration, but it puts it together in a continuous story that's likened to a journey or a progress, you know, from a beginning in the city of destruction, and then the progress to conversion, actually, from the city of destruction up to the entry of Christians into the

Wicca Gate. It's about one -tenth of the allegory. Nine -tenths then take us from that conversion point up to the time when he then eventually is received into the

Celestial City. But it's not just Bunyan quoting

Scripture. It's the way in the storyline he weaves Scripture in in such a manner that you love the story.

It's adventuresome. Young people love it too, you know. It's evil characters and trying situations and all that sort of thing, and yet there's, of course, always heading toward the

Celestial City, finally getting there. But there are false pilgrims, and there are ogres there, and there are mean people who's doubting castle and giant despair and all these other characters, and then there's some good pilgrims.

There's two major secondary pilgrims, one called Faithful and one called

Hopeful, and he is with Faithful to start with, and then he becomes a martyr, and then he matches up with Hopeful, and he goes on with Hopeful right through the river of death up to the gates of the

Celestial City. So it's progress, but basically, the first tenth, he's with a man who's got a burden on his back.

It's sin. He's grieved over. He's burdened down. How can he get rid of us? And he meets Evangelist, and Evangelist tells him to go to this narrow gate, entrance into the narrow way, and he goes there, and Christ receives him.

Even he pulls him in, as it were, because there are enemies trying to stop Christian even go through the gate there.

So anyway, he gets in there, and then the pilgrimage is then for him on the narrow way to go through trials and blessings, local church fellowship, and yet also terrible encounters with a character called a polyam, and so forth.

It's adventuresome, but all along the way, there are wonderful biblical pictures.

Just for instance, the Palace Beautiful. That's a representation of what a local church, a non -conformist church, ought to be.

It's an ideal there. It's a wonderful picture. You look at it and understand it's a church. Then you can understand what he's teaching.

Yeah, and going back to a specific definition of an allegory, an allegory is a story or a poem that has pictures that is to bring to mind.

I'm not saying that it necessarily needs to be illustrated literally, but it has the words convey pictures that have deeper meanings than the pictures you are actually reading or looking at.

Yes. And just very much like the Book of Revelation, which is a God -breathed allegory, although not every single portion of Revelation is an allegory, but obviously even the most literalist of fundamentalists have to acknowledge that some of the

Book of Revelation is allegorical. Well, yeah, I wouldn't quite make that parallel myself, personally, because of the tremendous progress you get, start to finish, and so forth.

But also, I would draw a parallel in Hebrews 11 there with Abraham, who comes to the promised land, and he goes there looking for a city, his maker is

God, and so forth. And he's on a journey. Abraham's on a journey, on a pilgrimage, you know. And actually, these scholars have tended to believe that that reference to Hebrews 11 may well be what

Bunyan is drawing upon. Yeah, I wasn't trying to make the connection that Bunyan was writing about the

Book of Revelation. I just meant that the Book of Revelation does use some allegorical language. That's all that I meant by that.

Yeah, that's a whole matter of hermeneutics there, yeah. Right. And so, what are the main themes that Christian, the main character, brings to mind when reading the

Pilgrim's Progress? Because I believe that although everybody's life here on earth can be very, very different, we don't all have cookie -cutter lives on this earth, whether we are

Christian or pagan. But there are some universal things that all of us who are

Christians are confronted with and go through that seem to be depicted in this marvelous allegory.

Well, yes, I agree. Again, I mentioned earlier, there are three main characters. The primary one, of course, is

Christian. Then you've got faithful and hopeful. Now, I believe it's very important that when you read

Pilgrim's Progress, you understand that Christian distinctively represents John Bunyan.

He is not just a man for all men and women. And the reason I say that,

I can show this because you get Christian arriving at the wicket gate. He goes to the wicket gate, he's converted, yet his burden still stays on his back.

And then he comes to the house of the Interpreter. There are seven scenes there. Here you have vital information, vital teaching for a new believer.

Then he comes to the place of deliverance where he looks at this cross on a mound or a hill there, and then the burden rolls off his back.

So you've got a little bit of a hiatus there. Now, my belief is, and I think I can almost prove this very much, this parallels the account of Bunyan's conversion in his testimony there,

Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. And I can show you there where he's converted. Then he has troubles.

He's wondering, he's very uncertain. He's wondering whether he's one of the elect. He's wondering whether he's committed the unpardonable sin.

And he's really, really all over the place a bit. And then you'll read about 18 months later, something like that.

He comes to a point of real stability. His former wrestlings and trials pass away and he comes to a point of stability.

I think there's a parallel exactly in Pilgrim's Progress there where Christian learns and so forth.

And then when he comes to the place of deliverance, the burden rolls off his back. And there he is fully assured of the saving righteousness that is available in Christ.

He rests in it, you know, and he's stable then. When you come to Faithful and to Hopeful, especially

Hopeful, Hopeful gives a testimony of his conversion. And when you read of Hopeful's conversion on the enchanted ground, you'll find that his conversion, there's no hiatus there, he's converted and perhaps you'll call it, for want of a better term, more conventional there.

And that's far more regarded as the norm where a person believes and there comes a real, you know, change and so forth.

There's not this troublesome period. And I can show you in Bunyan's works too, where Bunyan even refers to this.

And he doesn't wish anyone just to have his experience. He makes a point that what happened to him there in that hiatus period, he doesn't expect everyone, he doesn't want everyone to have that, but it happened to him.

All right, we're going to be returning after this break with more on Pilgrim's Progress. If you would like to ask a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the good old

USA. And you may remain anonymous if it makes you feel more comfortable for certain reasons, like for instance if you're bringing up something that you disagree with your pastor, something on which you disagree with your pastor, or something of that nature.

I understand that you may want to remain anonymous, but otherwise please give us at least your first name, city and state, and country of residence.

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God willing. So once again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com,

c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com. Don't go away, we will be right back with our guest

Dr. Barry Horner and more of the Pilgrim's Progress, so don't go away.

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arns. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today is Dr. Barry Horner.

He's our guest for the full two hours with about an hour to go. We are discussing The Pilgrim's Progress.

And that happens to be the most well -known and cherished book by the 17th century

Christian hero, John Bunyan. And Dr. Horner is well known for being one of the most knowledgeable scholars on the life and work of John Bunyan alive today.

And it's my honor to have him on this program again. And I urge you all again to ask your pastors, your elders, or if you are one of those yourself,

I urge you to seriously consider inviting Dr. Horner to your church or your parachurch ministry or your school or whatever it is that you operate to speak on The Pilgrim's Progress and or the life of John Bunyan.

He does a masterful job at this. I've seen his presentation probably around five or six times at least.

And even though it's multiple hours long, he actually can tailor it according to the length that you desire.

And even though I've been at some of his presentations that are over two hours long, I've never for a minute been bored.

And it's just utterly fascinating material. But if you have questions of your own for our guest today, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. And my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor has something to say. Well, yes, as Chris and I were discussing during the break,

I've had the experience of thinking, well, you know, I've got this old beat up paperback somewhere of Pilgrim's Progress.

And I agree with George Grant. You can't buy classics in paperback. But one of the problems

I'm facing is as I look at what's out there to buy another copy of Pilgrim's Progress, I want to get both parts, you know, with his wife also coming through, you know, to the

Celestial City. But I also, you know, there's so many updated versions and things.

And I know with so many voices out there, liberal theology and all that, I don't necessarily want to get one that's been too updated.

So do you have any thoughts on like, are you a purist getting back to the original? And can you still get it?

How do you get it? Those kinds of things. You can get it. It's readily available.

You can get parts one and two, which, of course, for those who don't know, part two really takes us back to the beginning of the

City of Destruction, where Christian's wife, Christiana, eventually comes to his senses and begins to go on pilgrimage.

So she goes a similar route there. Anyway, but that is available readily.

I, you know, again, I have to mention, I have my own version, and I've called it the Accurate Revised Text, because in no way does it really alter the truth.

It's, I've called it the sort of the New American Standard version, if you like. I understand that very well now.

Well, I like that. Tip of the hat to one of my most powerful sponsors of this program is the NASB.

Yeah, right. Good, good. Well, anyway, it falls in that category, because there are some places where he uses some quaint terminology and things like that, and I smooth that out a bit.

Sometimes I put an alternative word in brackets, but it's available. And incidentally, it's available,

Solid Ground Books have been selling it. Okay, yeah. So I think you know of them. So anyway,

Solid Ground Books and iBacon, that's just the book, that's just the text itself. Then my study manual, that's,

I use in seminars, and that has the text on left -hand pages, it has a parallel outline on right -hand pages.

But I am sensitive to some versions, which frankly indicate they're not really aware of Bunyan's doctrine, and they don't understand what he's saying.

And sometimes they really just mislead us in some ways.

In fact, there is a question from CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says, is it true, the rumors

I've heard, that the Pilgrim's Progress has actually been reprinted by Arminians and Roman Catholics with different theology?

Yeah, well, that's interesting. I have in my library here, I've got a revised copy by John Wesley.

Wow, that's interesting. Yeah, he took liberty there. I think it's funny, because John Wesley says, regarding his brother's hymns, leave them as they are, don't change them, you know?

And then, John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress, he edits it. Obviously, he's got a few doctoral problems, but I'm a

Bunyan man through and through, so I think Wesley really did what he shouldn't have done, but there it is.

I mean, I've got a copy that's old. You couldn't buy it today, hardly anywhere. Now, is it true what

CJ was asking about also, that there is actually a

Roman Catholic version? Yes, yeah, that's true. There is a Catholic version. I've seen it. I may have it somewhere in the library, but whatever.

I mean, it's just, you know, Bunyan would rise from the grave almost in anxiety over that.

I feel that, you know, let the Catholics stick to their own allegory if they can write it, you know?

Can you imagine the Catholics writing an allegory of how you become a Christian, you know, water baptism and all that sort of thing, and the priest?

I mean, it would be so, you know, totally out of it to think of a

Catholic representation by allegory of what it is to be a Christian. Right. I'd say let them bring it out, because Bunyan would so outshine them in the wonderful clarity of the gospel and everything in his version.

So they have done it, but, you know, because, you know, that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so that's what they're doing there, you know?

Well, hopefully, in God's providence, the Roman Catholics who are reading or have read the

Catholic version or the imitation of the Pilgrim's Progress, out of curiosity, spurred by the

Holy Spirit, pick up the real one, and even more so, pick up the Bible. Exactly, exactly, that's right.

You know, in history, see, the Pilgrim's Progress is really the most widely circulated piece of English literature after the

English Bible. Wow. It beats Milton, it beats Shakespeare, it's been translated into over 200 languages, you know.

It's not as well -known today, I grant you, but over the space of history there, the sales of it just are enormous, and in earlier centuries there, in England especially, and other parts of Europe, it was common.

There would, in a home, there would be a Bible, and there'd be a copy of the Pilgrim's Progress. They almost were sitting next to one another.

Huh. Well, we do have another listener in Clinton Township, Michigan, Jeff, who says,

I enjoy the humanity of the Christian walk that is so well described in the

Pilgrim's Progress. During my first Spiritual Valley as a believer, I was reminded through the

Pilgrim's Progress of Christian having fallen asleep and also forgetting his scroll.

He quickly remembered it and ran back to it as fast as he could. I too sought the

Lord in this way, remembering from where I had fallen and returning and doing the deeds

I did at first, as in Revelation chapter 2, verses 4 through 5.

It blessed me in knowing that Bunyan had once been where I was and helped me back on the path through this story.

God bless you both. So that isn't really a question, that's just a testimony. If you have anything to comment about Jeff's testimony.

Well, I think that's a fair comment when he speaks about the humanity of Bunyan, in both

Pilgrim's Progress and in Grace Abounding, too. You see the man writing is a pastor.

When he writes of all these amusing characters in Pilgrim's Progress, he is drawing on what is observed in daily life in Bedford and in England, you know, the hypocrisy and the trials and struggles and everything.

And so he has a real understanding of true humanity in the light of the

Word of God. So that's a fair comment. All right, let me go through some of the main themes through the book.

I mean, you've already addressed a lot of the book in an overview or summary, but if you could tell us about a

Christian fleeing from the city of destruction. Well, yes, his family, of course, totally object to dad becoming very religious.

He's got this burden on his back. In terms of an allegory, probably his wife and children can't see the burden, because this is what he feels, you see.

But anyway, his wife and children think he's gone, you know, gone bonkers. You know, I mean, he's got this

Bible and his dad's got religion and that's it. And they mock him and they want to put him to bed and everything, you know.

But eventually, anyway, he is absolutely resolute. He must not be detracted by his family.

He must be made right with God and get rid of his burden. And he meets evangelists. And the indication of his real passion for this is,

Bunyan describes him fleeing from the city of destruction. There he runs out of the city, he puts his fingers in his ears, and he cries out, life, life, eternal life.

So he's absolutely determined. He must, again, receive life, because he feels death in his soul.

Now, he's being pursued by obstinate and pliable. Tell us about these characters. Yeah, these, of course, they really are sent out from the city of destruction.

And, you know, the world doesn't give up its citizens very easily. And they're sent out to persuade

Christian to return. Well, obstinate is very pompous, almost. And he is critical of this fanciful book he's got in his hand,

Christian has. And so he is adamant that Christian must return right now, you know, and go back with him.

And Christian won't listen to him, because he's been told of some very fine things that are ahead, you know, and wonderful things if he gets through to the city of destruction, the celestial city.

And so, eventually, he gives up. Obstinate gives up.

Pliable, however, again, like a worldling, is interested in religion. And he's attracted by some of the good things that Christian speaks about that are ahead, for those who persist.

And so he thinks he'll go on pilgrimage, too. And so he joins Christian. But in the allegory, it's very significant that he doesn't have a burden.

He wants to go ahead for all the goodies, but he has not a real desire to be reconciled with God, you see.

So when they come to this bog or mire, the slough of the swamp, they both fall in, you see.

And Pliable says, well, is this the beginning of all the good things? And he climbs out, you know, he climbs out on the side nearest the city of destruction and goes back.

He's had enough already. But you see, he didn't have a burden. He's not concerned with dealing with sin in his life.

And so Christian, who struggles also, you know, eventually is helped by a man, a person called

Help. And Help comes along and pulls him out on the side of the slough there that is nearest to the wicket gate.

And so it indicates that although he's troubled and dirty and so forth, yet he still gets out on the side that will still allow him to go on toward the wicket gate.

Now, that is obviously antiquated language, slough of the spawn. I know it was quicksand or a swamp.

But what does actually slough of the spawn mean? Well, it explains a little more.

We're told a little more about this. And that is that when pilgrims come this way, they are reading the

Bible and it causes their sins to come up before they erupt. They have a flood of sensitiveness to their sin, and it keeps coming up through reading the

Bible. And so the allegory here is that as this sin comes up, it forms a bog, a mire, a slough, and it builds up.

And pilgrims are going to pass through this. But we are told there are some stepping stones through this mire.

And the stepping stones are the promises of God. Now, Christian, you see, is not paying attention to the way.

And he doesn't see the stepping stones. And so he falls in. But when others come through, including

Christiana, they see the stepping stones and they're able to get across the mire and not be so, you know, bedawled as Christian was.

And Christian encounters Mr. Worldly Wiseman afterwards. If you could tell us about Mr.

Worldly Wiseman. Well, Mr. Worldly Wiseman also really is a delegate from the city of destruction.

He goes there. He is purposely placed there to catch pilgrims as they're running away from the city and going on this journey, you know.

And he is there. He's a well -spoken man, well -dressed. He presents himself nicely.

He speaks in a kindly manner. But he tells Christian that going toward the wicket gate there, that is a foolish path to take.

There's lots of dangers and terrible things ahead. And so he says, I have an easier path for you.

Just look, just follow that path and go over that high hill there. And then there's a village.

The village is called Morality. And you can bring your wife and children there. And you won't have half the trouble you'll have if you go along the way toward the wicket gate, you see.

Well, Christian then eventually is somewhat snared by this. And he agrees and he starts climbing up this big hill.

And the higher he gets, the more difficult it gets until as he gets, you know, halfway up at least, he can't go any further.

It towers over him. He can't possibly climb it. And then, then along comes

Evangelist. And he uses some very famous biblical words. Elijah even heard these words.

Elijah was fleeing from Jezebel. And a messenger, an angel comes up and says to him, what doest thou hear,

Elijah? Well, when this angel comes up to Christian here, sort of stuck on the side of this high mountain.

And the angel says, what doest thou hear, Christian? It's Evangelist, actually, he says to him.

Evangelist is who says that. What doest thou hear? And Christian is so humiliated that he took some bad advice.

And he desperately cries out, is there any hope for me? Can I go back to the narrow way there toward the

Wicked Gate? And Evangelist says, yes, you can. You've committed a considerable error, but you should go back.

And so he's directed back upon the way that leads to the Wicked Gate. But that hill is really

Mount Sinai. And it represents the mere moralist's idea that if you just really attain to high morality, fulfill the

Ten Commandments, you too can, again, have peace with God. And of course, that's impossible in Scripture terms.

And so he can't climb Mount Sinai. He can't fulfill the law at all. That's what that's all about.

But Evangelist directs him back to the way of salvation by grace through faith.

And that is Christ alone. Amen. And why, well, what is the

Wicked Gate to begin with? And why is it called that by Bunyan? Well, I believe

Wicked Gate is a very small, narrow gate. You can't carry any luggage through it.

You know, you've got to go through it just yourself. It may well have been, you may have seen a barn may have a big door, and then it will have a little small door under it.

You know what I mean? And it may be related to that. But what's certain is it's a very narrow gate.

See, it's an entrance into the narrow way that leads to life. And so there it is.

But there's a man there called Goodwill, and he opens the gate. Across the gate it says,

Knock and it shall be opened unto you. And then this person who is called Goodwill opens the gate.

However, we know, when you go to part two and Christiana comes this way, we know that Goodwill is in fact

Jesus Christ. So what you have here is an allegorical composite. You've got the way,

Jesus is the way. You've got the door. You've got Goodwill. All of it together is a picture of Christ himself, who must receive us.

And Christ asks him where he's come from, or Goodwill if you like. And Christian tells him that he's come from the city of destruction.

And then the gate is open and Goodwill allows him to come. And in fact, we're told that Goodwill pulls him in.

Because back a little way, there's some hills there where you've got bills above and his soldiers, and they fire arrows at pilgrims who come up to the wicket gate to stop them from ever entering.

So there it is. Goodwill of Christ pulls him in through the scruff of his neck, so to speak. And once he comes in the gate, that's the point of conversion.

Christ has saved him. And then he has counsel from Christ, and then he's directed to go along the narrow way toward the house of the interpreter.

Yes, the house of the interpreter, I'm assuming in the Catholic version, is the Vatican. But tell us about the house of the interpreter and the portrait of the godly pastor.

I know you've mentioned this before, but if you could... There are seven scenes there, and I don't think we're at time to go through them.

But what is significant, he comes up to the house of the interpreter. Again, he's vetted there to make sure he's a true pilgrim.

Once he comes in through the gate there, he comes then to a room in which there was a portrait.

And there's a portrait of a man there, and he's a very godly man. And we're told about him that this man begets children.

He nurtures them. He's got a book in his hand. His back is toward the world and so forth.

And it's really a picture of a faithful, nonconformist pastor. The book in his hand is obviously the

Bible. His begetting of children means he preaches the gospel and there are conversions and so forth.

And then he feeds them and nurtures them. And I take it to be highly significant that when

Christian comes through the winger gate, the first scene of instruction here concerns

Christians need to be in a good, faithful, local church. He needs to be under the ministry of a faithful pastor who instructs him.

Because after a person's converted, they need to be fed spiritually. They need to hear the word of God. They need to hear the gospel expanded upon.

And that's what it has here. I think it probably is actually a representation of John Gifford.

He was formerly a royalist, but he was converted and then he was a pastor up in Bedford region there.

And he was a very good and godly man. And Bunyan says, this man was so much for my profit.

And I think probably this represents John Gifford. He represents the need of Christians not being in a liberal church.

Forget that. Liberal pastors can't feed the soul. But rather he is in a good church, such as even

John Bunyan. John Bunyan is represented here, you see. And in Bedford right now, by the village green, there's a big statue of John Bunyan.

And the way the statue has been constructed is it's a portrait of this man here in the first scene.

And you've got Bunyan standing there with a book in his hand and so forth. And it was done sort of to honor

Bunyan, but he too really represents this man who is an ideal pastor for people who become

Christians. Now, you mentioned who you think the portrait of the godly pastor is really depicting.

But what about the interpreter himself? Is that the Holy Spirit? Oh, well, that is the Holy Spirit. If we go to John's gospel, we're told here that when the

Holy Spirit comes, he will teach you. He will instruct you, you know. And he will teach, especially concerning Christ.

And that to me fits in perfectly with the Wicket Gate. Then he goes to the house, which is the house of the

Holy Spirit, if you like. And then he gets all this vital instruction. There are seven scenes.

Five of them are encouraging, and five of them are sober warnings, you know.

And he goes there. And then, you see, this is such vital information for a new person, a new believer.

This is what they really need to grow. Yeah, that's ten, not seven. You said five are encouraging and five are warnings?

No, I'm sorry, correction. Five are encouraging, two are warnings. Okay, and one crucial part is the distinction given by the interpreter between the law and the gospel, if you could explain.

Yes, yes, very much. Concerning a woman who, you go into this room, the room is full of dust.

Dust is flying everywhere because you've got a woman with a broom, and she's sweeping in the broom, and because she's sweeping, the dust flies all the more and chokes everyone in the room, you know.

And then another lady comes in, and she's got a bowl of water, and she sprinkles water, you know. And as she sprinkles water, the dust settles.

I remember back in school days, I've seen this being done in cleaning a school room, you know. And anyway, the big issue here is, and this, again, is clearly an indication of the influence of Luther on Bunyan, because for Luther, he makes a great distinction between law and gospel.

And the woman stirring at the broom there is law. The law aggravates us.

It only makes us more aware of our sin. The lady with the bowl of water is the sweet influence of the gospel, so that the gospel not only saves, but the gospel sanctifies.

And so, again, there's a very close parallel with Luther's emphasis here.

I remember you, obviously there was no x -ray machine in the 17th century, but I remember you very eloquently saying that the law is very much like an x -ray machine, if you remember saying that.

Yeah, exactly. It's wonderful. You can go, and it will show you things you never knew about yourself, you know.

And it's very diagnostic. But it gives you very bad news sometimes.

Well, yes, that's right. Exactly. Because, one, it really opens up what you're like.

When you see the negatives in the doctor's show, there, look at that lump there, and look at this lump there. No, it can be a very miserable revelation.

But the point is, if the doctor was to say to you now, get back on the x -ray machine, we're going to cure you, I mean, we'd laugh at it, you know.

So that the law is wonderful. It's a scalpel, if you like.

It's a magnifying glass. It's all of those things in terms of revealing what our disease is.

The only remedy for the disease is the gospel, and that's what that woman represents there. And I might add, and frankly,

I mean, some might agree with me on this, but what he's saying is the gospel sanctifies. And I could go on about that.

I won't do that now, but that's what he's teaching there, even for a Christian. I'll give you one proof of that.

One, to me, overwhelming proof, and that is the one repeatable ordinance of the

Lord's Table. Why do we have one repeatable ordinance? The reason is that that ordinance is a gospel remembrance feast.

That's what that's about. So I'm using that to sort of support what I'm saying. All right, we're going to go to our final break right now, and now's your final opportunity to send us a question at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We'll be right back with Dr. Barry Horner and the Pilgrim's Progress.

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This is Chris Orens. And if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with one half hour to go is

Dr. Barry Horner. And we are talking about John Bunyan and more specifically about his masterpiece, his magnum opus,

The Pilgrim's Progress. If you'd like to join us on the air, you have only about 25 minutes to do so.

Our email address is ChrisOrenson at gmail .com. ChrisOrenson at gmail .com.

And please give us your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the USA. And very quickly,

Jeff from Clinton Township, Michigan, again, who wrote in earlier, says, what would Dr.

Horner's opinion be regarding the children's version of The Pilgrim's Progress by Helen Taylor?

Hello, Dr. Horner? I'm sorry. Yes, I'm there. I'm here. I, my mind was roving.

Anyway, I know that I reviewed that.

All I can say is I don't think I was that impressed with it because I'm just going on my memory here, but I could pull it up later.

But I remember some parts of it I did not go for, and that's not what

I recommend. Well, then the last name would explain that, Taylor. Reverend Buzz Taylor, any relation?

We have one, a couple of very important things in this section that we left off at that I don't want to overlook.

We have the grace of Christ conquers the assailed heart. If you could explain in more detail.

Well, yes, that is where you have a room in which there's a fireplace and the flame is burning up brightly in the fireplace.

And then there's a man with great pouring buckets of water onto the fire. And the amazing thing is that as this man pours buckets of water on the fire, it still burns brightly.

And of course, Christian asked, what does this mean? Well, says evangelist, let's go behind the fireplace.

And when we go behind there, there's someone else pouring on the oil of grace. And this, of course, is

Christ. And it's because of the oil of grace on the fire that enables it to flame up even when

Satan, that's the one who's pouring the water on there, even when he tries to extinguish the fire in our hearts.

So, you know, greater is he that is in us than he that is in the world. So, again, it's really telling us of the sovereignty of grace in the believer.

Again, where sin abounds, grace is much more abound. So that's it.

It's an encouragement because, well, Bunyan says this, the fact that it's behind the fireplace is the fact that it's hidden and yet it's very real.

And so, again, whatever in this world assaults us, especially through the agency of Satan, yet through the spirit of Christ, there is greater grace for us to be more than conquerors over these trials that we face day by day.

Now, a recent guest I had on actually alluded to this excerpt from the

Pilgrim's Progress, and he believed that the allegory of the oil was the Holy Spirit.

Would you concur with that or would you disagree with that? Yes. You see, in the allegory, it's Christ who is behind the fireplace.

Yes, he recognized that, but as far as the oil that was being dumped or poured? Well, yeah.

Look, in Romans 8, we're told the Holy Spirit is the spirit of Christ. You know, so I'm not going to go over that.

It's the spirit of Christ that's being poured on there, if you like. Right, right. And, well, this is obviously an unnerving and disturbing scene that we encounter, and that's the despairing reprobate in the iron cage.

You can't pass that one up there. No, this is perhaps one of the most mysterious and challenging scenes there.

It's the sixth scene. The sixth and seventh scenes are meant to be challenging us, warning us.

They're warning scenes. And in this scene here, you've got a man in an iron cage. He's despairing.

He seems to be beyond hope, and, you know, he is asked, can't you repent of his backslidings?

He says, you know, what he's done. He's forsaken Christ and abused Christ and so forth. And so he's asked, can't you then repent?

And he uses these words. He says, no, he says, for God has denied me repentance. I can't repent.

Now, it's because of this that people have been really sort of questioning

Bunyan. Now, I will summarize what I believe Bunyan is saying here. He is saying there are instances where a man in this life may be beyond saving grace.

Of course, the obvious case would be Judas, but apart from that, he believes a man can sin in such a way that therefore he is abandoned.

And it also points to the fact that repentance is indeed a gift from God, and it falls completely in line and harmony with the doctrines of Calvinism or the doctrines of saving grace.

Exactly, because, yeah, Bunyan says, the man says, God has denied me repentance, which is a gift of God.

Yeah. Now, to confirm this, if anyone's interested, there's a writing of Bunyan's called the

Barren Fig Tree. And in the Barren Fig Tree, Bunyan lists five situations in which a man, he uses these words, in which a man may be beyond grace.

Now, you've got to read it, and he's careful. He's not, you know, sort of wild in what he's saying here, but he makes a point in some situations a person can be beyond grace.

And as I said, Judas, to me, I would definitely say is in that category, but there are others he says. Yeah, Jesus said that would have been better for him to have never been born, so that's obvious.

There's not an atom of hope for Judas, it seems to me, in the New Testament. Yes, and obviously, to quickly escape from the stereotype that we

Calvinists have been given by our opponents, we do not know who the reprobate are.

When we are to evangelize everyone, no matter how outwardly evil they are, because we don't know who the reprobate are.

The reprobate might even be among ministers who are false shepherds and false converts.

So the elect may be among the most evil of serial killers on death row who finally come to repentance and faith behind bars.

You just don't know who the elect and reprobate are on this earth until after they're regenerate.

We have a good idea who the elect are, but we are never certain who the reprobate are until they take their last gulp of air on earth.

No, and that's the reason why we believe in the free offer of the gospel. Right. This is a critical issue.

I believe, as you are saying, about particular election. I accept that as scripturally true, and you're right about a man, that's again true with the thieves on the cross there, you know, same thing.

There they are, saved at the last minute, as it were. But it's important that this is being understood in light of the free offer of the gospel because we don't know who the reprobate and the elect are.

And if we could, as quickly as we can in the 18 minutes or so, allot it to us now.

Christian arrives at the place of deliverance, if you could be more specific. Well, yeah, after the seven scenes of the

House of Interpreter, then he comes to a hill in which he goes up and there's a cross.

He looks at it, and then his tears in his face, and then as burden rolls off his back, it falls down into an empty tomb at the bottom of the hill there.

And then some angels come along and they minister to him, and they give him blessings. They say things, your sins are forgiven.

Now, again, as far as I'm concerned, this is now suddenly assurance really comes to him that his sins are forgiven.

He's given a scroll, which is really the seal of the spirit.

I take it to be. The scroll is to be with him always. He's told to keep looking at your scroll and never lose it.

He's given a cloak, which of course is the cloak of Christ's imputed righteousness.

He's given a mark on his forehead, which again distinguishes him as one of God's elect,

I believe. There's a parallel passage in Ezekiel, I think, that refers to that mark. And then finally he's sent on his way, and that's it.

He's rejoicing now, you know, and all these blessings. And again, it's an awakening to him,

I believe, of the blessings of the gospel. When a person is converted, they don't understand all of Romans, they don't understand all of Galatians or Hebrews or the faith.

They don't understand all that. What they know is they've been converted. They're new creatures in Christ. They've been lost in darkness, and now they see the light.

And they're new people. But they need to be taught, and that's why they need the House of Interpreter, they need the scripture. They need to be taught a lot of things, and Paul does this in Romans especially.

Now tell us about Christian overtaking simple sloth and presumption.

Yes, well, this is where, again, it's a little droll scene, if you like, because when we're newly converted, we race along the narrow way, and we're excited, we're full of joy in the

Lord. And then we're shocked to find that not everyone believes as we do. They may say they're

Christians, or they're going to the celestial city, but they're dreary, you know, dull

Christians. And so it is that a Christian finds these three pilgrims, they say they're going along the way there, but they're asleep, they're in chains somewhat, they're really ensnared by their indulgence in the flesh, in sleeping, and they really are insulted when

Christian says, you should be on the way here, you should be up and going along the narrow way, and don't sleep, this is not the place.

And so he is doing this out of interest in them. They are insulted. They say, go your way, leave us alone, you know.

So Christian eventually goes on his way there. He's a bit shocked, you know, that he finds that even nominal

Christians, they're not really actually interested in the interest he has now. And of course then we come to another scene that we cannot overlook, formalist and hypocrisy.

Right, they come tumbling over the wall. There's a wall along the way there, they come tumbling over the wall, and then obviously they're phonies, they talk with Christian.

Christian sees them, and he talks with them, and he finds them explaining they're going to the celestial city, and Christian says, wait a minute, he says, you didn't come in through the wicket gate, did you?

Now this, and there's several times this happens, and this is one of the proofs of what I'm saying, that the wicket gate is a place of conversion, because Christian says, you are not authentic Christians, because you didn't come in through the wicket gate, you see?

And they argue, oh, well, that's a long way away, we've come this shortcut, you know.

And then they make a statement, well, look, where do we differ? I mean, you're standing in the way, and we're standing in the way now, so what's the difference, you know?

And Christian warns them, he says, I fear that when you come up to the celestial city, you'll not gain entrance, you know.

So we make these people, you know, they're not Christ -centered, they're not

Atonement -centered, you know. And so, you know, it's a shortcut. They're very religious people, but with a dead, stony heart.

Yes, exactly, exactly. They're religious, but they're not alive in the garden. Right, RJ in White Plains, New York wants to know if you can recommend any animation or documentary about the

Pilgrim's Progress to both children and old alike. Well, you're not gonna exactly like what

I'm gonna say now if you like to watch lots of video and all that sort of thing. I have not seen any video version that I think is remotely parallel with what the

Pilgrim's Progress is teaching. Now, listen, the reason I say this is because the video gives itself to the visual, to the adventure.

Star Wars, all that sort of stuff, you know. And for instance,

I'll give a challenge. Pick any visual video version.

Now, okay, I wanna qualify this by saying, okay, when you're talking about children's versions, I've seen some visual versions for children in Sunday school.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about videos, I've seen them.

And here's the problem. This is a test case I use. Later on in Pilgrim's Progress, you come to a place called the

Enchanted Ground. And there you've got three major scenes. And it's all really teaching.

And they're told to converse with one another. You get Hopeful giving his testimony.

And then there's a long section. This is absolutely critical, this one. It's on ignorance and his belief in the gospel.

And his belief in the gospel is basically belief in the Catholic gospel of an infused grace and Christian then debates with ignorance over this and makes it clear that we are saved by an objective gospel looking under Jesus.

And it's very clear what's going on there. This is deep stuff here. And anyway, then we've got a third scene, again, one called

Temporary. But anyway, so with the visual versions, I then go to them and look up what happens in the

Enchanted Ground. Virtually all of them, they ignore much of what is being taught there. Wow.

They tend to miss out much that is gospel -centered. Because let me put it this way.

A visual version couldn't go for more than an hour, an hour and a half at the most. When I teach through Pilgrim's Progress, I've done it in four sessions.

I did it in Sydney recently. But usually it takes at least six or eight sessions, eight hourly sessions to go through it.

Right. The visual version, it's very much representative of the time in which you live.

You need to read Neil Postman's Amusing Yourself to Death. Yes. Understand this issue.

God hasn't given us a visual revelation. He's given us a written revelation. And that's important.

And you read Postman. He will support what I'm saying here. Yes, even though he was a non -believing

Jew. Yes, exactly. Read Postman. And so I'm using this to back up what

I'm saying. Frankly, don't waste your time with the visual versions. Even your children, if you can, get them to read because they will learn more with the reading.

You know what I mean? I'm sure you don't mind a beautifully illustrated book.

No, no, no, no. On my website, I've actually got what's called a children's coloring book.

And it's got about 22 pictures of lion drawings, you know. And so I'm not against these.

I've got a collection. They're probably some of the most beautiful pictures are lion drawings that can be colored, you know.

So I'm not against that. I'm not saying that. We're talking about the film versions, all that sort, the video versions.

And I'm saying I don't want any part of that. By the way, there is a historic 19th century

Episcopal church in New York City, St. George's, that was historically a

Calvinist low church, Episcopal church. And they have a beautiful stained glass window of Christian and the pilgrims progress.

But we have Christian ascending the hill difficulty, if you could explain in detail.

Well, yes. You see, you've got Christian leaving his friends, formalists and hypocrisy behind him, you know.

Comes to hill difficulty. There's a spring at the bottom, which obviously speaks of spiritual nourishment.

A Christian drinks, and then there's a pathway to the left, a pathway to the right.

One's called danger, one's called ease. I forget the names there. Anyway, but he determines he's got to stick to the narrow way.

So he must go up the hill difficulty. It's tougher to go that way. So he goes up there. And of course, there's a shady nook up there, and he rests there for a little while.

But formalists and hypocrisy, they come along and they see the path to the left and path to the right.

And what do they do? They think it's easier to go either the left or the right. And one goes in one direction, one in the other.

And they're lost sight of there. They're never seen again. And that's the end of that. And the

Christian then rests halfway up, although he sleeps too long up there, and he gets into trouble when he goes up to the top there.

And then we have a Christian being approached by timorous and mistrust. Yes, that's at the top of the hill there.

They're going back. They're going back down the hill. They say to Christian, look, we know what's ahead.

There are lions. There's dangers there. It's a terrible pathway ahead. Don't go there.

Go back. And Christian listens to them. And then he reasons this way, says, well, if I go ahead, there's dangers and all that sort of thing, but there's the celestial city.

If I go back, there's certain destruction. It's absolutely inevitable if I go back, there's destruction.

So he says, OK, I'm going to opt for difficulty because I've got the hope of the celestial city ahead.

And so timorous and mistrust run away, and he keeps going. And then a Christian meets lion -sized opposition.

Yeah, he sees, he looks ahead, so he heads off, and he sees this beautiful palace.

It's a palace, beautiful, which I said already is a representation of a faithful, nonconformist church.

He looks there, there's a porter outside the gate or the door of the palace, and the porter is beckoning him.

Come on, come on, we want you to stay the night. It's a good place for you to stay, you see? And he's about to head off, and then between himself and that palace, he sees two savage lions, one on the left and one on the right, and the pathway goes right between them.

However, the porter tells him, don't be afraid because Christian is trembling at this. And so he says, don't be afraid.

He said, they're chained, and if you go right down the middle, they won't touch you. So Christian is obedient.

He goes right down the middle there, and the lions are snarling and want to devour him, but they can't touch him because they're chained, and eventually gets through to the porter and eventually gets received into the palace, beautiful.

But the big point here is these two lions represent opposition to pilgrims that come from two very distinct regions of England, that is the church and the monarchy.

And both of them are very much supportive of the Establishment Church of England. They do not like nonconformity.

They don't like nonconformist churches. And so they're going to snap and snarl and do everything they can to stop you from going to a nonconformist church.

And finally, as you mentioned, Christian now resides at the Palace Beautiful, if you could summarize what that is.

Yeah, this is one of the most exquisitely beautiful scenes as you go in.

First of all, the porter investigates him before he actually goes in the door. Then he goes in and he's investigated by three ladies there, and they question where he's come from.

They want to be sure he's authentic. Then he meets another lady called Discretion, and she again investigates him.

So this represents Bunyan being very cautious to who becomes a member in a church he pastors.

But they're lovely ladies, and eventually then they begin to counsel with him, and they ask him questions like, where's your wife?

Why didn't your wife and children come with you? And another question is, well, do you still long to go back to the city of destruction?

And then do you sometimes have golden moments in your

Christian experience? And do you have thoughts of cardality and temptations and that sort of thing?

And all these questions are put to him, and he answers them very honestly, but they realize he's a true child of God, and eventually it comes supper time.

And this, again, is the most wonderful scene here. Eventually they ask him to come to supper time.

Well, remember, this is a local church, and so in a local church, what is supper time? It's meeting around the

Lord's table. Well, they sit down for supper time, and there they talk about the glories of their

Lord and Savior, the head of this palace, if you like. And they talk about his deeds and who he is, and eventually they enjoy the supper.

But it's simply, of course, a beautifully pictorial way of describing the Lord's table. Oh, then it comes nighttime, and he goes to sleep in a bedroom called peace.

You know, and he's wonderfully refreshed. But the point is that peace comes from supper time, you see?

And so that scene is exquisite. Now we have Aaron Birch in Indianapolis, Indiana, who writes in, and it's a great way to end the program today.

I wonder if your guest might give a summary of ways Pilgrim Progress has impacted and enhanced his own walk with Christ personally.

Oh, yes. Well, of course, I mentioned when I was five -year -old how it profoundly affected me, as well as my sister in Melbourne.

And there, I never forgot it, you know. I, that goes back many years.

And I had a seminar this last visit to Sydney, only about two weeks ago.

And I can say this, I never cease to enjoy teaching it.

I get excited about it. One of the areas I get excited is about the ongoing influence of the gospel.

I believe this very much. I've been saved by the gospel. I'm kept by the gospel. And I find this totally permeating all of Pilgrim's Progress.

I could spend time on going on some of Dunyon's doctrine, especially it comes out of another pilgrim that joins with Christian called

Faithful. And Faithful tells of his struggles. And they're real struggles.

And anyway, I read this and it reminds me of being cautious as a pastor myself, being very careful.

Dunyon himself got snared once. And it was a young lady called Agnes Beaumont.

She asked for a ride on the back of his horse and he gave it. And then he got into trouble over this. I can't go over the details now.

He was proved innocent in all that happened there. And it's just, you can read it. Often versions of Grace of Bounding will have this account of Agnes Beaumont.

You can read that. And he just was a little wise. He shouldn't let Agnes get in the back of his horse and ride off because Agnes' father saw this and he was very unhappy, you know.

Well, anyway, it teaches me to be very careful as a pastor. You know, it teaches me so many wonderful things.

It permeates my preaching. You know, when I preach the word of God, it's so often

I have a recollection of a scene in Pilgrim's Progress and I use it to illustrate my preaching. And I had a pastor friend in Melbourne who's

Edelab Bunyan, just like I did. He's Barry, so I think my congregation might think I'm almost going mad because every time

I preach, I'm almost remembering something in Pilgrim's Progress. You know, I'm the same way, you know.

And so it influenced my whole, my life, my growth in Christ and my preaching.

And you could do no better to find a mentor than John Bunyan. Well, we have to have you back if you could stay on the line so I could reschedule a second interview with you because we still have half the book to go through.

That's all right. Yeah, that'd be fine. All righty. And remember, if you want more information about Dr. Barry Horner and these conferences that he puts on, go to bunyanministries .org,

bunyanministries .org, where you'll also find information about books he has written and so on. Thank you so much for being on the program today.

Thank everyone who listened and wrote in especially. Thank you, Reverend Buzz Taylor, for being my co -host.

And I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater