March 4, 2022 Show with Derek Melton on “One Man’s Exodus Out From the Charismatic Movement & Into the Reformed Faith”

Live from the historic parsonage of the 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

It's iron sharpens iron.

This is a radio platform in which pastors Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing

the church and the world today.

Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us.

Iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage We are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to

have in view in conversation To make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours.

And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions.

And now here's your host Chris Arnzen.

Good afternoon, Cumberland County, Pennsylvania.

Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live

streaming at iron sharpens iron Radio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen your host of iron sharpens iron radio wishing you all a happy Friday on this fourth

day of March 2022.

Yesterday if you were listening you heard me having a

Excellent, I think a spectacular interview and I'm not saying that to brag about my end

of it.

But to brag about my guests and of the discussion.

Jono Sims a pastor of the Shelbyville Mills Baptist Church

in Shelbyville, Tennessee and after the program is over.

He told me you've got to get my dear friend Derek Melton Pastor Grace Life

Church of Pryor, Oklahoma on the program.

He is extraordinary.

He is fascinating and He's a very good friend of your friend.

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, so Day James White

Definitely echoed those wonderful sentiments about Derek Milton.

And it just so happens providentially that he had today available to conduct an

interview.

And it just so happens that we providentially had today open.

So I am so thrilled to have pastor Derek Milton on for the first time.

He is a retired assistant chief of police at the Pryor Police Department

in Pryor, Oklahoma.

And he's also senior pastor at Grace Life Church of Pryor, Oklahoma and today we are

going to be addressing one man's exodus out from the charismatic movement and

Into the reformed faith and it's my honor and privilege To welcome you for the very first time ever to I interpret

Zion radio pastor Derek Milton.

Amen, and if anybody Does have questions specifically about

the charismatic movement?

But usually when we have a pastor on we also broaden the spectrum of

questions that we would Invite you to ask on pastoral issues.

Since as I said, our guest is a pastor.

But we would prefer obviously that the topic as many of you as possible stick to the

topic at hand one man's exodus out from the charismatic movement and into the

reformed faith and before I ask a couple of questions about Grace Life Church of Pryor, Oklahoma and

Get the ball rolling with our interview.

I just want to make it clear to our listeners That we are not Going to be

guilty of hate speech today against brothers in Christ With whom we disagree

over the the sign gifts the charismatic gifts and so on.

I know some very wonderful God honoring and Christ like

brothers and sisters who are charismatic and Pentecostal some of whom

Outshine me and are far more Christ like in their walk

With Christ than I have ever been they they they are wonderful people now, of

course.

Not everyone who is a charismatic would fit that description or Pentecostal and not everybody who's a reformed Baptist would

either but In fact, there are some very dangerous charlatans

and Dangerous people who are deceived themselves who are both leaders in the

charismatic and Pentecostal movement and also members and followers

In that movement, so I think that it's just very wise

and there I think that there is absolutely nothing wrong with

Exposing error in the church when you See it

very clearly.

And in fact, let me add to that that there are even charismatic and Pentecostal Christians

who support this show financially, even though they know my stance against those particular

aspects of what they believe.

In fact, there is one in particular individual who is extremely Generous financially to

this program, but of course, I can't let that compromise my faith nor would these folks

expect me to and so we are going to be Delving

into our guest's testimony and also revealing why he felt

compelled Not only from the scriptures, but from the Holy Spirit

to Abandoned the charismatic movement and and why he embraced reformed theology

and cessationism.

But first before we go into any of that Tell our listeners about Grace Life Church of Prior,

Oklahoma.

Brother, we are a group of believers that love

the Lord want to honor and

We believe in the Holy Spirit.

It just said this.

Man, brother, I'm Nate.

I need the Holy Spirit.

Guys like me that I've abandoned.

I believe in the Holy Spirit.

I need the Holy Spirit.

He is the spirit the glory of Christ In the scriptures to

me and power.

So anyway, we're a group or to glorify him in every area of

life and We believe that what the Bible teaches in

every gamut of life.

We exist

for the

glory of God.

29 years.

We have been working with a program in our community That's ran by the National

Golf.

Praise

God.

When the website for those of you interested in finding out more about Grace Life Church of

Prior, Oklahoma.

The website is Grace Life Prior.

That's P as in Peter R. Y or .org.

Grace Life P as in Peter R. Y or .org.

And you can find out all the information you need and I especially urge anyone who lives

in or near Prior, Oklahoma To visit there, especially if you don't have a church home,

that's biblically sound.

Or if you're visiting there on vacation or if you have family friends and loved ones in that area I hope that

you would urge them to visit as well well.

It's interesting that our theme today corresponds with something that we

already do as a regular practice as a tradition.

As a custom here on Iron Sherpa's Iron Radio Whenever we have a first -time guest

We have that guest give a summary of their salvation toast them testimony.

And in this case the whole program will very much involve not only your

salvation testimony, but also your journey into Coming to see

and discover and embrace The doctrines of sovereign grace also nicknamed

reform theology also nicknamed Calvinism and So tell us about.

Let's start at the beginning your upbringing that the religious atmosphere if

any in the home in which you were raised and We'll move forward from there.

Okay,

so on

Sundays and mainline

denominate and not there was

it not there was any deep doctrines

there wasn't the home

and I

loved each other and they Exemplified what marriage should look like and my dad was a very hard

worker and provided for his family.

In fact, but they're both two and they're both members of Grace Life

Church.

My mom actually teaches one of our small groups.

We call them the grannies of grace and plays the piano in our church.

She taught music in the public school.

And then also

problem was was my didn't believe

you are by nature

children of wrath.

That pretty much depicts who I was before Christ.

I was an enemy at a

young age of the little bit communion every Sunday and they wouldn't let you take

communion unless she went Forward.

I did that because we didn't have those.

I mean I was I wanted that and

so I went forward and went through their hoops and got and by

the time I'm 14 15 years old.

I'm slipping out and drinking alcohol.

Unbeknownst to my parents using profanity.

It's rebelling against authority.

My dad was a strict needed to but still

there was something on the inside of me.

That was very resistant to the gospel and to the things of God and I was just was

not having anything to do with it.

I remember one particular occasion when one of my mom's dear precious Christian friends came up to share the gospel

with me.

I was in my bedroom and And I made that precious

just a wedding

on my mom.

I would come home late at night.

I rodeoed and I was drinking

alcohol again this and I was

by my mom at prayer.

I'd come home late at night.

And I knew she was praying for me because I was the black sheep the family to use that.

My brother was an

all rankings at school back when they did that.

But to meet with the tea the whole community knew that

there was.

I was in the

ninth grade as an FFA

on I'm the black sheep of the family and the whole community was there and they all fell over on the floor laughing and

Slapping the floor because the coat the whole city knew or town knew that that was so true.

The other kids were my brother and my sisters did good in school never in trouble,

but I was not.

I was the opposite I was the kid always in the principal's office.

I got into law enforcement When I was a

gun on my depravity and I was married, but that time I got married when I was

19 years old to my wife Stacy now of 37 years and

Things were not going well in our marriage because I was so sinful

drinking I know we're praying and you know, my dad had a couple I call him

come to Jesus meetings with me.

In fact, I remember a time when I was in my patrol car running radar and my dad Come down there and

Had to come to Jesus with me.

He ate me out of my police car and talked to me about Embarrassing the family

name Wow Yeah turned to the Lord, you know, my dad is

manly man, and he just wasn't gonna tolerate one his son's embarrassing

His name and acting like an idiot which they want me

to go to church not been going I did not want to go.

My wife was on the verge of divorcing me Unhappy

in marriage with me.

I was not being a good husband now all my law

enforcement buddies drinking and and

so She actually had ratted me out and my sweet little daddy had to

come you think and not in my tail.

So I did go to church with it was not a gospel church at all.

Although we had grown up in a traditional church that had a semblance of the gospel this church

Matic and to make a long story

short that didn't last fair with one of the women in the church that church

Abandoned and that just kind of drove me further away from the church and Wanted nothing to

do with it.

I was asked to know that a man

that claimed to be a godly man shouldn't be.

I had more excuses not to go to church anywhere

and This was in between career.

I was a I was in a smaller department.

I'd applied at the department I retired from and was hired at and I was actually hired by

prior police department in the mid -80s and I went to work for them

undercover Was my first assignment and

I was living with an ordeal.

My son Cody

who is involved in our ministry is

what's pregnant and I was in my pickup truck.

And was in the pickup truck and on my way home and out

of nowhere treating my

wife

I mean

obviously

as I knew that I

a little boy and he will save

and I remember in my pickup truck Weeping, you know

this big and buying drugs from bad guys I've dropped

them over my life or to

save me me and my pickup

beginning

and she

had been praying I just

told her that how I but I just bought and it's

not them.

I was done.

I Know I shouldn't and

Christ

known and

that begins sharing what I knew

teenagers that were involved with law enforcement that were at risk kids that were being

arrested or whatever and sharing Christ and I wanted them to know the gospel and

Another inner affirmation over the years

that born again when

the Lord

first the plans of being a

pastor.

It had this insatiable appetite to read.

I knew that from the church I was in

just those few weeks of that pastor falling into sin.

I knew the church the modern church was.

What I knew about it was a myth.

I remember going to a bookstore what even a Christian bookstore was just a bookstore in our community and Visited with the guy

that owned it.

I said listen to read.

I want it to be old.

I don't want it.

I don't want anything modern.

I don't want to read anything that's been written in the last 100 years.

Wow.

Now preacher ever read in the history of my life John Owen.

I'm sitting here in my library.

I see the volume set on my shelf right here.

And you understood it when you were reading.

You know, I know one is a very difficult.

You know, it would you know, it's it's.

It's puritanical.

You know, I

was in the church

reading you have any other

and read

it.

And so my library to this day is mainly.

I'm amazed that a secular bookstore would even have John Owen.

Was this a used bookstore like a collectible?

Okay.

And by the way, that bookstore still is operating in our community.

But anyway, I love

him

dearly and he

lives in Texas.

He invited me to go to church with him because I was not going to church faithfully because of the situation that had

happened and my wife and I had actually visited and gone a few times to an assembly of God Church

at the invitation of my older brother and

he invited me to go with him and we ended up in a Small church in our community.

That was a word of faith.

I didn't know enough about theology at that time to know that.

The level.

So this was was or should I say was this?

Before you yourself had experienced any charismatic phenomena.

Right.

Okay.

Absolutely Yeah, absolutely started going,

you know, and

I'm thinking no I just and my buddy is like, you know It's a good place for us

to be and you know, I'm going to Bible studies at his house and and you know I'm just learning.

I just don't know much, you know, my Doctrinal foundation in

reading good stuff.

Now.

This is in the background reading five books a week and it's

50 and I'm Okay, been on the face

of the whole formation

that's taking looking at my library right now.

You know, I'm saying Thomas Manton Then Thomas Boston and Richard Sidds and

John Newton and John Flavel

beginning to read and this is over the course of Years at the same time, you know, I'm

in this

Ideology that you

know, I love his family.

We have friends there that they know what they're talking

about.

Now did that pastor just not.

I'm sorry for interrupting you, but did that pastor? strike you as a

Sincere Genuinely Christian man who was himself Deceived by the Word of

Faith or do you did he strike you as a charlatan at least later on?

I'm now looking back.

I didn't see I mean

there were huge glaring red flags that I did not see.

I've been young.

I mean my I'm in my early 20s and I just trust that.

What he's saying is right.

So I don't have enough doctrinal formation to be able to defend a position at

that time and a Friend but yeah looking back, you know.

And obviously I've given this a million thoughts since then.

There were things that were that should have been.

And let's pick up right where you left off because we have to go to our.

First station break and If anybody wants to join us on the air with a question for

our guests today.

Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris ar n ze and

a gmail .com.

Give us your first name at least your city and state of residence and your country of residence if you live outside the USA and please

Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter and I could readily see

When we are discussing discussing something as controversial as this.

That there may be people who want to remain anonymous you might be a charismatic person who is starting to

question.

What you believe what you've been taught what you've been practicing.

And you don't want to call attention to your identity at this point in your life.

You're still in a charismatic or Pentecostal Church.

Or you may even be a pastor of a charismatic or Pentecostal Church, in fact

years ago when I was broadcasting out of WNYG radio in Babylon,

Long Island, New York a Pastor and a charismatic congregation

who listened to my program heard a Reformed guest in fact it

was my dear friend pastor Bill Shishko of the at that time of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church of

Franklin Square, Long Island, New York.

He now pastors a church plant from that congregation.

In Comac, Long Island, New York the Haven, but this charismatic pastor heard

An interview that that struck him to the core and he had to meet with Pastor

Bill and this man left the

charismatic movement resigned from his pastoral position and.

And To my knowledge is still not a pastor anywhere but he he just could

not move on in good conscience obviously with Pastoring a church when he didn't even agree with one of the main

principles that they believed in and practiced.

But you might be somebody in that same position.

You don't want to identify yourself.

That was a very long way of saying.

Why some folks will obviously want to remain anonymous and we will honor that request.

But if it's just a general question about Derek Melton's testimony

about the scriptures about theology and doctrine.

It's just a general question.

Please give us your first name at least your city and state of residence in your country of residence.

Don't go away.

We'll be right back with Pastor Derek Milton of Grace Life Church of Pryor, Oklahoma.

On the theme one man's exodus out from the charismatic movement and into the reformed faith.

We'll be right back.

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Catholic I don't listen to it, but you should come on man.

What do you have to lose?

And We are back now with Derek Melton retired assistant chief of police at the

prior Police Department in prior, Oklahoma.

And he is currently the senior pastor at Grace Life Church of prior, Oklahoma.

We are discussing one man's exodus out from the charismatic movement and into the reformed faith.

If you have a question, and we already have some waiting to be asked and answered.

But if you would like to get in line, and if you have a question of your own.

Email it to Chris Arnson at gmail .com.

Chris a RN Z and a gmail .com give us your first name at least city and state and

country of residence unless you are remaining anonymous due to the question being over a

very private matter and right before the break.

Pastor Derek.

You were talking about how early on in your Christian life as a new babe

in Christ.

You began attending a church.

That was a word -of -faith Pentecostal Church.

You didn't really know anything about.

What that actually meant?

But you started to develop a close relationship and develop a

love for your pastor and you.

Right before the break.

We're saying down the road or in hindsight.

You realize that there were some red flags.

That were flashing and you you missed those flags.

You weren't discerning enough at that time to Notice that there was something really amiss there,

but if you could pick up where you left off.

Yeah young and just not having any any

dog that now looking back or I

mean it's

embarrassing now.

But some of the things that they believing, you know.

You know some of the time gift things speaking in tongues their words of

faith.

You know, you know, although

you know when those things were happening there was just an uneasiness, you know, even even then.

You know, it's like a young man very uneasy about them in the beginning.

And of course over time as you're exposed to that more and more that the uneasiness begins to

now mind you I'm still reading good literature.

And so I'm going to keep that in the background because that's going to ultimately play in Pneumonia

as it goes on along from beginning to end.

We were in that church about about 10 years.

From my early 20s until around my early 30s him

and some other guys

kind of in that genre.

There are many and guys that had a high view God I'd be the scripture really caught my caught my attention

because it was sounding more and more like what I was reading.

Now didn't.

Tozer.

Have some kind of a belief in charismatic experience

some kind of.

Something to do with extra biblical revelation or something like that.

Yeah, I think so, you know, he did a lot of reading of Madame

Guy on and Really?

I didn't know that.

Oh, yeah, but at the same time I

mean he did was and so as far as

the the sign gifts and all that I'm not a hundred

attenuation guy but anyway, my my gospel formation is

is Well underway, especially with what I'm reading and towards the end of my time in that movement I mean

I would I would be on the night shift working street crimes or whatever and I would be listening to

preaching and at That time I would listen to David Wilkerson as well.

Some his preaching type specialist.

Yeah, and it's interesting that Wilkerson although a.

Charismatic clearly.

He was very very opposed to the word of faith movement and he and he also had a massive reformed

library.

Including many volumes by Puritans and I'm almost certain banner of truth even had him endorsed one of

those books.

Or it might have been another publisher that published a reformed book by a Puritan that he wrote the

Wrote a commendation for the cover.

But anyway Christian a complete armor.

Okay.

There you go.

They're not.

Yeah, and so anyway I'm listening

to the morning and go home and change and get go get

things ready for my pastor and it is here something and It's I'm beginning to have a very uneasy.

Or

reading something and so

as time goes on

that more and more and more about they know both

time I'm I'm just completely done with the charismatic movement.

And this was in the latter part of the 90s and.

And I just 1999 I planted what now the

Grace Life Church we then were Pride Creek Community Church

teaching the gospel version is obviously and I'm not Arminian at this point

but yet a high view of scripture a high view of

God way and because of people knowing that I was in the charismatic church that Flavor of

people start a string interesting.

Yeah, because they knew that I've been in that high view

of God.

In fact on 2009 I was I've been listening

to Ching and I was

listening

to him and that was the first time I'd ever

been introduced to.

By the way, were you there at the last one.

Because I was there and I was absolutely blown away.

That was such a phenomenal event.

Yeah, I was there.

We are actually a church plant of Grace Life Church of Muscle Shoals, Alabama.

Doctrine in 2012 as you can only imagine.

Health issues.

I'd have my spine operated on because of law enforcement injuries and then they

came in and it's kind of Jeff Knoblet and Steve McAllister came in just picked me up and

said wait.

We're gonna praise God back to where I'm

back to where I was at that the tension built where I didn't had to leave I was just done.

Turned away from it and denounced it, you know charismatic movement.

You mean He's a charismatic movement, right.

And I can't recall the gospel being preached in my home.

Wow one one time.

Wow.

You had

to believe for external outward things and have enough faith in

your faith to get these physical things.

I mean everything that we find at first.

Josh they lost eyes, but they

were and so

in 99 I'm reading.

I'm being a Theological worldview a

theological prayer beginning to listen to

the reading the Puritans a

year and just the doctrine

of the Evangelical church

preaching on the attributes.

Although I was an Armenian, right?

But I'm using for some of my resources, you know Tozer's book and been

on the existence of that day.

It is fascinating to me that You the very first Christian

book you got your hands on and your first baby step as a

Christian Which you got at a secular bookstore was a book by

John Owen one of the giants of the reformed faith.

And yet and all these years go by and you're in the word of faith movement and you're in.

Even after having left there you're still an Armenian Christian after devouring all these

reform books.

It's kind of interesting how it took so long.

Or God God just chose to tarry.

That's what really it was to turn the lights.

Well, since we were reformed we know that it is not the intellect of anyone that.

Reveals these things

of God, amen,

David Miller preaching on the doctrine of election and and

I'm just right there at the teetering point.

I mean, I've been reading on election to the Puritans.

I'm just I'm just a loved Grace Life Church.

I remember telling my wife.

I want the church I pastor to be like this.

I just don't know how to get it there.

I don't know how to turn this thing around.

So now I'm

going verse by verse

through the

book and

it all I can say Chris.

And it was

like gay

manatee on the

way the Bible.

They're all headed to destruction.

Is it what injustice is there.

God for his own glory?

Changes the hearts of some and turns them back and gives them grace and

Then allows the others to go forward in the sin that they love and want and God gives them

justice.

What injustice is.

Wow?

You are sovereign in my salvation.

I'm sitting there young.

Sit the police chief and they're weeping.

Weeping he's

missing.

I knew the Bible was right.

I knew it was my understanding that was wrong.

But I didn't know where all of a sudden these things are coming into view and I'm beginning to understand

and I'm weeping.

I'm not and my wife, you know walks in.

I try to explain to her what I just see in Scripture like I didn't

even know God was this sovereign and.

And of course then she's like, oh you need to quit reading.

You're gonna split our sleeping out of my

preaching as I'm going to the gospel John I'm preaching preaching on a regeneration that it being a

sovereign work of God we're dead and God has to act upon us empowering in grace and

on the radar with the elders now and That went on for a couple of years.

The tension was built the church I passed

75 of the people that were attending our church left

and Facebook was Alive with this was all

over the doctrines of sovereign grace, right?

The freedom of God in the regeneration

started it and I just holding on to screw up my best

friends were they were leading the split against me and

been coming stayed with

in 2012 to Just novel it and Steve McCallister anchored in truth, you

know, I'm hurting.

I need some help here is what's going on and they knew what the split was about it was over doctor and that I was

Trying to get the church Doctrinally sounded doctrinally, right?

May I've seen these truths and saw that some of the things I'd previously taught that were wrong and known.

I'm broken hearted over those things and I want to be true to the scripture.

I'm going verse by verse.

David Miller had helped me.

I'd went to his preachers class with him and Herschel York and Arkansas and and then I'd went to the very

first acute that Steve Lawson put on and Steve knew what I was

going through and We're really helping me but anchored in truth came in and just picked this up and said we're going to help you

restart so in 2012 we Changed the name from Pryor Creek Community

Church to grace life church.

And in fact, we're gonna pick up right where you left off there.

And don't let me forget to tell you a Steve Lawson story that he told me and may have told you as well.

But we're going to our midway break folks.

It's longer than the other breaks because grace life radio in Lake City, Florida

requires of us a longer break in the middle of the show because they're required by the FCC to air their own

public service announcements and other local things that Geographically

are connected to Lake City, Florida.

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Pastor Derrick Melton On his journey out of the charismatic movement and into reform theology

and our email address again is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

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I always enjoy our time.

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Wow, that's some compliment.

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Last but not least if you are not a member of a biblically faithful Church Like race life

Church in prior, Oklahoma No matter where on the planet Earth you live.

I have really extensive lists of Christ honoring doctrinally

sound theologically faithful biblical churches all

over the planet Earth and No matter where you live.

I may be able to help you find a church.

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Right around the corner from where they live.

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So if you're in that category.

Or if you know someone who is to send me an email to Chris Arns and at gmail .com and put I need a church In the

subject line, that's also The email address where you can send in a question to our guest

today pastor Derek Melton of Grace Life Church of prior, Oklahoma as we continue our discussion on

one man's exodus out from the charismatic movement into The reform faith, that's Chris Arns and a gmail

.com.

Give us your first name at least city and state and country of residence pastor Derek right before the

break you may recall You were discussing a really

Tragic event that was occurring in The life of your congregation after you came to the doctrines of

Sovereign Grace also nicknamed reform theology and Calvinism.

And you said about 75 % of the people left there if I'm not mistaken.

And to quickly tell at least a part of that Steve Lawson story when he was

a guest on my program sometime in the early 2000s when he was still a

pastor he had told me that when a similar circumstance happened to him

and he came to the doctrines of grace there were actually Deacons who were

physically trying to drag him away from the pulpit in the middle of a sermon I can't remember how that played out.

I can't remember if somebody else stopped them or if he was dragged away permanently.

But I know he obviously left that church not long after that I don't know if you ever heard dr.

Lawson tell that story, but tell it and pick up where you left off.

Yeah, so yeah, he shared that story with him in my.

Necessary encourage you by making it clear that his situation was worse.

How could it be an encouragement otherwise?

No, yeah, it was encouragement that I wasn't the only guy that had gone through right.

I was going through these kinds of church thing against

the.

And then upheaval in the church.

In fact, he actually Left out took a

shit.

Well sure.

We had that experience here and very painful.

Very dear friend that over

these over the preaching and not my first verse

preaching by the way I wasn't that I had this new hobby horse and was gonna ride the hobby horse.

He came out in the

preaching and then the war began.

Good brother because you know where we're at today and the sweet godly people

last ten years.

But we've been seeking to and

the reform.

It's gonna be

part.

I guess.

Well praise God.

We do have a listener who has a question involving Something far less

serious.

It's somewhat off the topic, but it involves something that Evidently is a passion of

yours.

We have John in Peoria, Illinois who asks

Could pastor Melton say a few words about his knife making and

He basically Wants you to Explain that in detail.

He apparently must be a customer of yours or is at least aware of your your making of

knives.

Custom knife maker on the side.

I do that for Several days of

tedious study.

It's good to get outside and hit something.

I have to be

each knife I send out it's been custom -made 100 by me.

Well, and So I do higher in Damascus

do your great -grandkids

will be using

but anyway use it Antler and those higher end

blades.

I do make just a cousin.

Anyway, yeah,

I do that on the side.

I've been doing that since I retired from law enforcement and 2015 was my my last

time in law enforcement.

I did 30 years behind the badge and Decided I needed

to do something like that.

I didn't have time full -time and

early and then Administrating the law enforcement department is I was just

working seven days a week for years on the engine.

So I didn't have time but after retired, I thought it'd be good for me to get outside.

I like guns and knives always

have making and meeting with The master bladesmith and then

just a lot of research and I started doing that on my own and one thing led to another and

My desire is not to be a good a good knock maker and a mediocre pastor.

My chief desire is to glorify God in my ministry and so I'm a student of

scripture time in the study.

And if I do have an afternoon up and work, I think I've worked in the

shop one day since before Christmas.

Now how can somebody ready.

How can somebody purchase one of your knives.

Then it's have to reach out to me on mr. Derek Lane Melton.

It's my Twitter and then Instagram is there is another Derek Melton.

That is a lot better than I am.

He's an unfortunate fire winner and he's in Mississippi and he has a big whip.

I'm not that guy.

He's he's way better than me.

Huh?

He's a good.

He's a good Christian brother, but I am I'm the little deep.

Derek Melton make knives as a hobby and

John O has some my blade.

I like to see guys use them and they and by the way folks the spelling of

our guest name is D.

Rek M as in Michael e l t o n.

And to make sure you are looking for.

His.

Knife work in Prior, Oklahoma, not Mississippi, which is where the other

brother has his knife.

Business did by the way.

Did you give or did you make any of James White's swords that he has on the wall?

No, but dr. Watt has two of my knives.

He has.

One from earlier on around ten years, I think and so he has one of my earlier on.

I think he takes with him better before he goes cool.

Well, maybe one of these days I can afford to get a.

Customized knife to be a symbol for iron sharpens iron.

You're obviously your hobby Is something that is connected to the

the the image on my website where you have a blacksmith hammering out metal on a

on an anvil so I Just immediately thought of that.

Oh, look at this.

We have a brother Who I have interviewed before who I did have

the pleasure to see at the true church conference.

He has a question for you.

His name is Blake Keenum and He is a pastor in

Selkirk Canada and His question is what can I do to help a

charismatic friend understand the doctrine of the spirit better?

What truths are helpful to bring clarity to the charismatic movement?

Good question, Blake.

And of course, you know, there is an

aberration their view of the

manifestations of the spirit and I would just say is the

two -edged sword and go to John 14 and John 16 and that

we

might be a so that's just where I

have these talks with a lot of Charismatics in our area and and

and that's a big their view of the

Holy Spirit these outward

a view.

You have to bring upon that

Misunderstand as I was at that

believe that

what and they learned the language

they learn

in their

dogma in

my

life.

And

I

saw that got right.

The scriptures

convinced me

that God

has spoken to us in

these last

days in his son.

And that's the end of story.

That's it was just the end of story for me and.

It reminds me of Steve Lawson again because he said something Very

true and yet it is somewhat comical.

He said if you want to hear God speak Read your Bible out loud.

Now, thank you, by the way, I'm gonna give a plug to Our brother who has submitted the

question pastor Keenum.

This was not planned.

I assure you It's just a nice surprise to see his question Come in

and I'm looking up his his information here his

Church is Grace Baptist Church in Manitoba

Manitoba Canada and I was just looking at it and it disappeared.

Well, here it is Grace Baptist Church in Selkirk, Manitoba, Canada.

The website is Selkirk SEL K I R K GBC

for Grace Baptist Church dot org.

That's Selkirk SEL K I R K GBC dot org Grace

Baptist Church in Selkirk, Manitoba Canada and that's Blake Keenum

is the pastor.

Thank you so much for listening pastor Blake.

You said something very key here Because most charismatics and

Pentecostals that I have met and known Believe

that the Bible is very precious and vital.

There are very Biblically literate charismatics and Pentecostals.

There are many that I have met that have memorized great portions of Scripture

but What they don't realize is that they are Downplaying if

not right out rejecting the Sufficiency of Scripture they may believe

in the inerrancy of Scripture.

They may believe in the necessity of Scripture, but they don't believe at least consciously.

Or should I say and they unconsciously? Don't believe in the sufficiency of

Scripture.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah a few moments ago that it is

a district and that we we need and there's a

Freshword so as to devalue

into one lump because you've mentioned I've got

some in that movie I

think maybe

it is a

thing that the

now to give.

More of a What's the word I'm looking for actually to lessen

the hostility of our listeners against the charismatic and

Pentecostal movement.

Obviously we strongly disagree with their views on the signed gifts

and in many cases also on Theological issues since many not

all there are Calvinistic Pentecostals, especially in the 21st century.

I know some personally but most of them would not be most of them would even believe you could

lose your salvation and someone but their roots.

And I'm not saying their roots are pristine and I'm not saying that there weren't charlatans among those in the

very foundations of this movement.

But there was a Wrong response

for a right reason to the German higher criticism

that was really spreading like wildfire in the 19th century.

In early 20th century where you had theologians denying the miraculous

in the Bible and Painting a picture of God as if he is

impotent today as if he is not actively involved in things in the

day -to -day lives of people on this planet and They're

just wrongly reacted to that wanting to

Uphold a God that is biblical in a Christ that is biblical in a church that is biblical.

They just misapplied the the teachings in the scripture about the signed

gifts and insisted that they must be Happening today in order for

the church to be relevant in order for the scriptures to be true.

Would you would you say I'm overstepping my defense of them or how would you respond to that?

In the charismatic word of

faith and the causal in

that understanding of the God

affiliated with did not and I see this common area

that with the Hagans and

and a

lot of

this is they and

it's a God they

centric and

again I'm not saying that that's everyone that's in that movement.

I'm saying that there is a large contingent of them in Northeast

Oakland out

these on

these.

Ex -wife administering to

one of my employees who

was in a word of faith his

whole life and he's 63 now.

Left and we maintained friendship.

He wanted me to do that.

I did her funeral and I'm still ministering.

They were his wife

left him and he reached out again.

I started coming to church with me and I started meeting with him just going through the gospel on

Mondays with us pulling.

I was explaining the substitutionary atoning work of Christ to him and I looked across the desk

and he's been Tears run down his face.

That's what's wrong brother.

He said why hasn't anyone told me this before?

I said told you what not that you've never been told that he said

I've never heard that word in my life.

I said you've been going to church for 60 years in the word of faith.

Pentecostal churches.

And you never heard about Jesus dying as your substitute.

He said not once and I'll just begin explain the full gospel and he just weeping is that no one's ever told and

he now It's been saved.

He called me shortly up to the Lord to

save him and repented and he is on fire the Lord.

I still meet with him every week and he's a member gone through membership at our church and he and he's you know He

explained to him the error of the care.

He is just on for

all those years.

But the point I'm making is this there was such an emphasis placed on the miraculous Upon the fine gifts upon

physical healing that there was zero gospel preaching.

He had never heard the gospel in all those years and going to church and a word of faith and calls the church

Wow.

Yeah, I remember years ago in the 90s.

I believe yeah, I'm almost certain it was in the mid 90s my general manager of

WMC a radio where I worked for 15 years He Said

Chris, I want you to join me at a large charismatic Church Not from not far from where you

live because I want to see and hear with my own eyes and ears What

Rodney Howard Brown is all about and not just go by hearsay and so on.

I just want to see How far off this guy really is and we

both went to this Nightmarish Circus that

Brown had orchestrated at the upper room tabernacle in Deer

Park, Long Island, and I purposely mentioned the name of that church because it's a dangerous false

church and thousands of deceived people from my Native home Long Island,

New York are flooding into that place I don't know.

I haven't gotten an update lately, but but it was a it was a chilling experience first of all,

there was no mention of The need to embrace Christ and

To trust in his atoning death.

There was no mention of his substitution For sinners on the cross of Calvary.

There was nothing at all Mentioned about that.

It was all about this laughing revival experience that he was promoting and He

said something very interesting That I never heard a Pentecostal or charismatic

say he was making fun of Charismatics and Pentecostals

who see a demon under every rock and he said he was sick and tired of being invited to churches

where The pastor will pray for the protection

from demons While while he was speaking at a particular place and

He said very arrogantly.

I don't need those prayers.

I walk into a room and the demons scatter.

And when I was listening to all this criticism of Charismatics and

Pentecostals by someone who is the king of the false charismatics

It occurred to me.

I thought I think that he was trying to put people at ease To accept a

dynamic a demonic experience.

He didn't want people to be afraid of the demonic while this This experience was happening

whether it was fake or real Even a to be a pink who was involved in the occult

before he was a Christian said that he witnessed Things that could not be explained as parlor

tricks and the tricks of charlatans.

He believed that he witnessed genuinely A Demonic

activity that was manifesting itself in some kind of outward Seemingly miraculous way.

So anyway That brings me to a question Why

is this so serious?

And why is this so dangerous?

And I believe one of the reasons it's dangerous is because of this

opening up the mind to invite whatever these

Bizarre experiences may be that are occurring in some not all in some of these

charismatic and Pentecostal churches and there are charismatics and Pentecostals who are just as

repulsed by Rodney Howard Brown and the word of faith movement as we are but But

this is not the kind of thing.

You're typically going to see in a reformed Baptist Church.

So take up My thoughts from there and your reaction to them

just respond to what I just said about the one of the reasons why I believe this is such a serious and

dangerous area is that it does Open

up people who Believe they are safe.

They perhaps are not even regenerate and they are naively opening up their minds and hearts and

souls to demonic activity.

Undoubtedly, you know and like a young Derrick Melton I just don't

know any better the air you have these charlatans coming in and putting on these.

You know these guys preach.

I'll just you know,

give us a sign, you know.

And that's what drives it.

It's not these people are not people of faith.

These guys that are leading these movements and they have to have the outward

and the visible What the Lord has

said and given to us

and divine revelation that is

believers that don't believe that way.

That these were people that did not believe and they needed some outward sign to believe.

And is there an in -road?

Demonic forces in and some of these meetings.

Is that what's driving this laughing?

Phenomenon, I've been in a meeting with Rodney Howard Brown way back in the day.

It is a eerie situation.

Even in those days it was it was very eerie to me.

Something was not right with it.

And what's not right with it?

I believe that it's being driven by by demons

in listen if the issue of the

list people are sidetracked with chasing phenomenon or the

Miraculous or needing to get up by the way those direct words from the Lord

never bring you to repentance.

Do they they don't they just swell up with

mystic in that movement?

I remember being it up in a A

meeting

with praying for

human down on the floor

and strutting and it just

like me.

You know that we don't have the corner on the market of truth and they've got all these

miracles and the pursuit of these things.

It's just distracting from the message of the cross.

You know.

It's bad when you can go into a charismatic church in Northeast, Oklahoma for 10 years and.

Never hear a message about the cross.

You never hear a message about the radical depravity of man.

You never hear a message about the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It's all about these external manifestations and the pursuit of these miracles.

Finances or God wants you to be rich or whatever.

And if you a distraction and if you've noticed.

These so -called prophets.

I Have never heard one of these so -called charismatic or Pentecostal

prophets or prophetesses Give bad news to somebody when they are prophesying over

them.

Have you it's always some it's always a wonderful bit of news about their future and

In fact, there is I don't know whether to laugh or cry when I see the video but there was a

a woman leading some kind of a prophecy event in a church and A man went forward

to be prophesied over and this woman declared publicly that He was going to be

a great prophet of God himself and Leader of God's people.

And when she was finished He said can I say a few words and she said yes, praise the Lord and he started to publicly

denounce her as a false prophet.

So we do have an anonymous listener Who says

oh the upper room Christian World Center you were mentioning which is definitely a false church

Is on Deer Park Avenue and Dix Hills.

It's not in Deer Park.

Yes, absolutely, right.

And the only reason I would allow that to be pointed out is not because I'm promoting this synagogue of Satan.

I am Telling people I'm warning them to flee from that

place as fast as they can run.

We also have an anonymous listener who wants to know you

Discussed how you were a member of a church that was word -of -faith and charismatic.

But I don't recall you ever mentioning during your testimony if you yourself Had ever

spoken in tongues if you believed it was real and what you think about that now.

Did and let me tell you how that works and this is how it works for all of it.

I'm gonna say, you

know,

and they genuine

doing that stuff.

I mean you're the.

And it

goes

against.

I don't know anything about theology.

They point me to 1st Corinthians chapter 12 and 14 to looky here.

Then they go to the book of Acts and say looky here, but they don't give me the context.

They don't give me the they don't even understand themselves descriptive.

You got to do all this and you got a.

So you start listening these guys talk about how they drove a Honda.

They drove a Honda or they drove a Toyota.

They drove a Toyota and you fall into that.

You really do it's embarrassing untie my bowtie.

Is that is that another one untie my bowtie?

Another one, you know the shunned I shunned I deal, you know, and

this video my son hold down people.

They're going to get them to baptism.

And.

Where is anything like that ever demonstrated in the scripture?

It's nowhere to be found.

These people in the upper room did not even know what was going to happen to them and to

be.

To be coached to do it is absolutely ridiculous.

It's manipulate demonic Manipulation as long as you

they get you doing that.

They're good, but brother that thing is it sober?

There's no mention of the glory of God.

There's no mentions of the or this is great salvation.

It's all about getting you to stage two life and they

convince you that by doing that that you're bypassing everything.

You're getting into the deeper life and it's just a manipulative tool that they themselves and but

you know It's easy to get a young 22 20 year old

guy to do these things when he just wants to feed

and you fall into That and it you have to really hit override with your mind because everything

in you tells you this ain't right.

Yeah, and what that manual override button brother?

I had to do that and and obviously whenever I came to Matt

now I look back and it just

manipulates and it's.

Extraordinary how people could view this and Depending upon

what Pentecostal denomination you're in Some actually teach

the more mainstream even Pentecostal denominations teach that

tongues is the sign of The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

And the thing that has always baffled me is how can something That can so

easily be faked Be a sign of anything important.

How could it?

It makes absolutely no sense at all.

Am I correct?

In fact, could you tell the story right when we come back?

We're taking a very quick break and then we'll if you could tell the story, please don't forget it.

We'll be right back after these messages very quickly.

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Welcome back.

And pastor Derek right before the break.

I was saying that I think it is Absolutely nonsensical for someone to

believe that the modern understanding of

Pentecostals and charismatics in regard to what tongues is.

How that could possibly be a sign.

Because it's easily faked.

It's not like the gift.

As you and I believe that were real languages were being spoken by people who had never previously learned

those languages.

That would be a sign.

But but but saying untie my bowtie a hundred times.

How on earth could that be viewed as a sign right?

You're just so mentally.

And again, I think there's just that you want to

believe your preacher.

If you don't have that cure then and you know, you

can fall for it.

I did.

Let me tell you the story.

I was going to tell you before we went to break a Woman for

she was a lesbian and she killed

her up in the cell and it's

looking at me and speaking it.

Wow.

Now, did she.

Was she claiming these were?

The Holy Spirit of God or was she just perhaps just demonstrating.

Something satanic that that even she'd recognize.

Okay.

Wow, that is.

Yeah, even the actor

I don't know his name.

But I saw him on an interview on the 700 Club many years ago.

He performed in Jesus Christ Superstar on Broadway and

he said that when he was hanging on the cross He began speaking in demonic tongues

because he openly Professed that he was not a believer at that time.

Now whether that's true or not. I don't know.

But it is an odd thing to want to Confess to if you're trying to promote charismatic

phenomena, but we we've got about two minutes for you to really Summarize what you most want

etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today.

And I know I'll definitely want to have you back on the program either to expand this same topic or discuss something else.

But please summarize what you want our audience to most leave with today.

The fear in the church is not preaching the death burial and the resurrection and

ascension and The glories of the Lord that

preaches the with and

Jesus came into the

world that Jesus

Christ It's fully God and fully man and that can read

death and cross.

You need to find a real church because you're not even in a church.

Amen, and isn't it true brother that we who believe in the doctrines of sovereign grace we who

are nicknamed reformed Christians and Calvinists don't we really have a Holy Spirit that is

far more powerful and vital and who has a Much more

important role in our lives and even in our coming to Christ and even in our

possessing faith.

We credit that to the Holy Spirit whereas much of the Christian life

and even salvation itself and Believing is viewed by many charismatics and Pentecostals

as something that was conjured up in a dead human heart.

But we believe as a reformed Baptist we believe the doctrine of sovereign grace we believe that God the

Holy Spirit raises up dead sinners by the creative and

that his powers at work in our sanctification in our day -to -day life and

Showing us the glories of Christ in the Word of living God.

We believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

I pray daily that that power be manifest in my life.

Amen and we're out of time and the website to get more information about our guests.

Church is grace life prior Pryo r .org.

Grace life prior pryo r .org.

Thank you so much, brother.

I want to thank everybody who listened and I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives That Jesus Christ is a far

greater Savior than you are a sinner.