Gene Robinson

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

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The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

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Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix reformed

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Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation. If you'd like to talk with dr.

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White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

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United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five Three three three four one and now with today's topic.

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Here is James white And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a

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Thursday afternoon it is It's it's good to be back in in Phoenix But unlike a lot of times when

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I get to get back I get back all tired and tuckered out and beat up and and that's that's not how

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I came back this time I would like to very much. Thank the The elders and the people of the grace reform

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Baptist Church There in Houston. I think it's King would actually is the specific term right next to humble

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I've always when we we drove it. I think Papa Cito's is in humble, which is very very nice.

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I ate of Papa Cito's three times while I was there and I tell you these folks treated me right and It was a very enjoyable time and I think that is reflected in the videos that we've posted there's an ease of speaking with the people because I feel very much at home amongst them and Just kindred spirits.

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I really appreciate All that they did for me Especially the two large bags of Papa Cito chips with it to two pints of Salsa that were in my room.

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I was good not so good for me it was but that was that was that was good stuff and so very very enjoyable time there with the folks and Looking forward to getting a chance to go back there

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In the not -too -distant future they were everybody there was surprised that we have humidity in in Phoenix, so this thought was all dry out there now come out here during the monsoons and we'll

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We'll compete with you on the humidity, but obviously They have it pretty pretty consistently

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Whereas we don't necessarily have it quite as consistently as as they do so but a beautiful area great people and so and for the first time

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Within a matter of hours literally of the of the sessions themselves

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Anybody who wanted to watch? What had taken place could do so because as I mentioned?

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Last week I now have a the ability on YouTube to post videos longer than 10 minutes and 15 seconds and so thanks to the

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Casio excellent S10e I believe is the little camera that I have

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I was able to set that little thing up and record the sessions and then upload them and and voila

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Everyone can sort of participate we did Four sessions actually

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I did Sunday school. I tried to record that too, but I had it set on HD level

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Quality so it only got about 38 minutes and filled the SD card It was boy you should have seen the quality of that video though.

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It was like having a having a Studio quality camera is incredible what it can do, but the file was a little bit of big side

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Quite get the whole thing, but we did ancient and modern challenges to scripture to the

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Trinity It's a justification by faith and then last evening I reviewed a sermon by Greg Mott of Houston's First Baptist Church on the subject of Calvinism and Interacted with it and what was amazing to me is when you watch it

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You can see him on the screen you can understand what he's saying then listen to my response It's a give -and -take sadly that's about as close to get to debates with a lot of folks these days

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So that's that's what we did, and I didn't even get that finished to be honest with you

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I I went too long but That's because I started preaching and that happens anyway on the program today eight seven seven seven five three three three four one

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Phone number if you'd like to become involved number of things while I was sitting at the

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Gate this morning I plugged the the BlackBerry in and used it as a modem and Blogged briefly about the new

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Frank Beckwith book which will not be out till November Actually, and I have it on pre -order.

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I mentioned that last week return to Rome confessions of an evangelical

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Catholic and Once again, I think there's going to be the blurring of the lines.

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There's just An amazing amount of not really taking into consideration all that has been said and done before Philosophers have the tendency to think that they can break new ground along those lines.

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I've noticed, but I blogged about some comments that he made over on between two worlds that blog in the comments section

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And I posted some of his comments on on the blog this morning if you haven't seen that yet It gives you some insight.

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I think as to what we're gonna see in this book It seems to be a fairly small book 144 pages but He he wrote quote.

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Hi guys what Carlo and Philip are discussing? I cover in some detail in my book without giving away too much

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Without giving away too much we're sitting here talking about the gospel we're sitting here talking

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And remember I'm looking at the cover and the cover does exactly What I said the cover would do it says why the president of the

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Evangelical Theological Society left his post and returned to the Catholic Church Well, actually he had returned to Catholic Church for he left his post you may recall

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We were the first ones to really publicly announce this situation and I was as I recall the first one to ask for to call for him to resign as the president of Evangelical Theological Society because you can't be an

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Evangelical as a Roman Catholic, that's the whole point and so obviously the book is is playing on that and utilizing that and so I'm sorry, but but without giving away too much

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What and then when you discover what it is without giving away too much the conceptual key to understanding the faith works issue for me?

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Was to not think of either forensically if one uses an imputation model

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Then works turn out to be acts in exchange for some good The sense of works is clearly unbiblical as Trent rightfully points out that sense of works is clear in biblical strength rightly frightfully points out

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But if one thinks of grace as infused Then works are not against grace or faith, but the work of grace itself and helping us to conform the image of Christ So it's the old imputation versus infusion.

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What a new thing that is That's only a oh, I don't know 500 year old debate maybe possibly

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And we don't want to give anything away on a 500 year old debate there you go

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I didn't have time. Maybe I will Add this in or maybe

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I'll just add it as an X. I'll do it tomorrow I'll see if I can find time to do so I'm still on central time which is two hours off in this and I want to try to stay there as much as possible because The fact the matter is with the writing that I want to be doing between now and when

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I get up to Alaska I got to be getting up early early early early in the morning, and so I might as well just keep this schedule

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So I got to get to bed. I mean what time is it? It's it's six o 'clock You know

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I should be heading home right after the program and going to bed while it's still light outside. We serve tough, but anyway

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I Didn't have a chance to throw up on to the to throw

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Didn't really work right I was sitting at the gate, and and I've got you know you've got the the blackberry over to one side it's tethered and more and more people are showing up for the for the flight and I was trying to rush to to go get the text to the who is the blessed man part from the

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God who justifies and post it underneath the Stravinsky's thing and I just didn't have time to do it, so maybe

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I'll be able to do it tomorrow to get that up there Because I think it's very very useful that is the question that I would ask of Frank Beckwith is who is the blessed man of Romans chapter 4 and If he says he is the blessed man, then let's start talking about why it is that Paul talks about Righteousness in the context of the non imputation of sin

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Let's see just how Orthodox Frank Beckwith is as a Roman Catholic because remember the last time we talked about Frank Beckwith was when he was on Catholic answers and remember the lady called up and said had he prayed to Mary he had not prayed to Mary and You could just hear the

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Catholics in the audience just cringing at that have you learned to love

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Mary yet, I think was the exact question that was asked of him and Let's just find out how how

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Orthodox Beckwith's Roman Catholicism is that would be part of the of the question anyway

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So that's interesting and I I'm also interested to see that the lines just lit up right the beginning of the program

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We've got a bunch of folks But before we go to the phone calls I have a bunch of stuff here, but I did want to get to one thing

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I Would like to play for you the very voice of heresy

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You know we think about I was lecturing on church history a little bit this past weekend we were talking about people like arias and history records arias as an arch heretic as an individual who

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By his teaching and by his promotion of his teaching Sought to destroy the faith once for all delivered to the

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Saints and And No, I am I I have a

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Todd Bentley clip queued up, but that's not what I'm talking about Todd Bentley is not

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Todd Bentley is a charlatan He's not a serious heretic he's not

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I mean and I really hope that the vast majority of Believers can see through this guy.

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I mean I was watching the nightline thing That's what I have queued up as the nightline report, and it's just so repulsive to me

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To watch that stuff, but that's not who I'm talking about. That's not who I'm talking about It's rare when we not well not rare, and I'm not even talking about a

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Benny can I'm not talking about it I'm talking about someone who is a heretic who maintains that he's not a heretic because the vast majority of the hair of heretics

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Obviously, that's the that's the position they adopt. I am the one who's speaking the truth you are the one who's been misled

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You need to follow after me etc. Etc. Etc. And so let's

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Let's listen to the voice of of a living heretic a man who is clearly

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Outside the realm of the Christian faith, but especially these days you're not allowed to say that We say it, but we are we are who we are, but you're not allowed to say that and it's again

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Gonna you're gonna have to count the cost in the not -too -distant future to say this. This is an interview That I pulled down off of the web just recently and I want you to listen to the voice of a living heretic and Listen to how he expresses himself

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I really have one goal at the Lambeth conference and of course I'll be around the fringes of the conference and not a participant

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I want the light of Christ to shine forth from me I you know

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I've come to know this God of love in my life who I know beyond any shadow of a doubt loves me loves me as a

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Gay man, and I want to share that joy with whomever wants to sit and talk with me, you know,

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I think Miracles happen when people who are divided by something sit and talk with each other

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Get to know one another as human beings and as brothers and sisters in Christ And that's why

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I'm going to offer myself in that way So it's not going to be a big sort of protest outside. Absolutely.

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Yes. No, I Mean to be there to support the Archbishop of Canterbury and all the other bishops who are there

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I think I think a mistake was made and not including me in those conversations

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I was the only openly gay voice that might have been at the table, but I will do what

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I can from the fringe Mmm, so Ian I was going to say playing devil's advocate, but that's probably not the right phrase

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Now let me stop right here to tell you what's going on here That of course is

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Gene Robinson. I hesitate to call him Bishop because that is an affront to the word to its biblical use and to the history of That and the men who have borne that title down through the years who have honored it by following God's Word but this is

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Gene Robinson the Episcopalian Bishop of Vermont or New Hampshire It's a little state up there that we could fit a number of them into,

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Arizona He's up there. Anyway, and this is an interview on British television and Isn't it fascinating?

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That after you listen to this man who is an unabashed homosexual Unrepentant of that Sitting next to him is

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Ian McKellen the openly gay actor that you know is

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Gandalf and Magneto and He of course is the one that I think we've mentioned the program before Rips out

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Leviticus from any of the Bibles that he finds in The drawers of hotels he might be staying in and here you have

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Robinson sitting next to an atheist and what binds them together is their sin and there he sits and He's now turning to To the actor the atheist actor why in the world they would have him there other than the fact

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They're both homosexuals is difficult to say but this is British television There are a lot of people in the church who say that the

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Word of God has been laid down and is absolutely clear on sexual matters and have a legitimate point of view and Isn't it right that Rowan Williams as the

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Archbishop of Canterbury is trying to get a negotiated deal of some kind is trying to hold the church together well as an atheist

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I It would be tempting to say let the church get on with its internal arguments, but it spreads beyond that and and when the when the

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Christian Registrar in Islington this week having refused to Witness the civil partnership between two gay men and and was sacked and then reinstated by the tribunal we see that There are ramifications

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Just looking at it from the outside the church thinks it's got a particular problem with some articles perhaps not of faith, but of written in the

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Bible that they refer to and I Can remember the Armed Forces not that long ago saying they had a particular problem.

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It was to all to do with discipline Well, it's just been discovered There's no discipline problems when you let gay people into the village and schools talk well

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We've got a particular problem the particular problem They've all got that share is homophobia and and having it they root around in the

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Bible to discover the very few Passages that seem to be relevant, but people like the bishop like the

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Quakers Like many people I marched with them gay pride last week gay Christians gay

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Jews gay Muslims Are at ease with their faith and and their position in society and so the argument is one we have to Take seriously yes, but there are prohibitions on homosexuality in the

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Bible You've said that the Bible isn't necessarily big enough to accommodate the

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Christian faith What do you mean by that well? I mean I mean that God didn't stop revealing God's self when the canon of Scripture was closed

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At the end of the first century you know Jesus says it was appropriate then But there's lots of developments in society and human life since then which you think should be not only developments in human life, but Development development in God's life with us

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Jesus says this amazing thing on at the Last Supper He says to his disciples. There is more that I would teach you, but you cannot bear it right now

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So I will send the Holy Spirit who will lead you into all truth I think we've seen the

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Holy Spirit leading us in terms of the full inclusion of people of color and women and of people who are physically challenged and now

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God is leading us to the full inclusion of gay and lesbian bisexual and transgendered people so as I said

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There you have The very voice of heresy a living heretic spewing his heresy denying the sufficiency of Scripture denying the law of God denying a

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God's ability to reveal himself with clarity and subjugating

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God's Word to in essence new revelation to humanistic thought

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Here is an unrepentant Homosexual he is a man who should have been put out of the church long ago

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But when certain churches enter into gross levels of apostasy such as the

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Episcopalian Church they are elevated the position of bishop and So they're allowed to sit there

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Claim to represent Christ use his name and in so doing deny everything that he stood for taught and preached and They are the ones given the television time

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They're the ones that people turn to today in a society that is desperate for any reason to Disbelieve and that's exactly what you have going on there

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There's more that could play but we have a number of people online So I thought I'd get to them, but I want to get to that today just as a reminder that this is what's taking place around us and sometimes

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Being exposed to it so often we almost become accustomed to it It almost becomes something that we we expect it should not come to that in any way shape or form

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Hearing that should always bother us no matter how many times we hear people Denying the

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Word of God twisting the Word of God perverting the Word of God and You know the society

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You just have to wonder they will they will look and they will They will see a

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Todd Bentley for example the the very beginning of the nightline Presentation sound like this the believers are descending on Lakeland by the thousands

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What began in early April as a few days of preaching in a local church by an obscure pastor from Canada Has become an evangelical sensation

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Spirit of cancer Every symptom of fibromyalgia is leaving your body from across the country and around the world people

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Pilgrims five to ten thousand of them a night are flocking to this little city in Central, Florida To hear a man named

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Todd Bentley preach the Word of God. Yeah preach the Word of God I'm sorry the man would not have preached the

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Word of God if his life depended upon it the world looks at that and they call It evangelicalism they call that preaching they call these people believers

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And then they turn to the next channel and here's Gene Robinson with his collar on Claiming to be a bishop and an open homosexual saying the

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Bible isn't big enough for Christianity There you go we are up against a tremendous challenge and the only way that so we can meet that challenge is by faithfully proclaiming

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God's truth in our everyday lives each one of us is called to be ready to give an answer for the hope that's within him and We're not going to get the the big platforms

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Very rarely the vast joy of the time. This is the media doesn't want us there They want the people they can manipulate and they can make to say the things they want to say

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But that doesn't change the fact that we are called to be faithful even in These these contexts.

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Yeah somebody. Whoa We just lost are we still on Wow wonder what that was

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That was a big power spike wasn't it? What's that?

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It may have been a big power spike, but our backup batteries and it's still spiking on us. Yeah, we're having a bunch of problems

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Batteries are holding. So we're still right. We'll probably disappear here before long. I've lost I lost the phones though Well, I've still got the phones if you need me to bring the phones up, let me know

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All right. Yeah, I can't I've lost the internet connection here on my end probably because My internet router went down in the other room so This this thing's all can confuse it and lost so I can't even see the the names you're gonna have to text me the the phone calls if we're gonna

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And you're sure that your software there is telling you that we're still going okay all right, because I can't see the channel anymore that all went bye -bye and Disconnected the whole nine yards, so we'll see so I believe the

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First caller you let me turn your laptop down because you keep popping Well, it should stop doing that so that's fine you can do that, but Let's first callers

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Robert, okay, let's go ahead and and try to get hold of Robert. Hi Robert Oh, dr.

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White. God bless you. How are you doing? Thanks for taking my call. Yes, sir. I have a question for you

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Concerning the comma Joe Hanim, what would you consider to be the best argument against it?

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Well, I think that's put that thing is putting it backwards given the fact that The Greek manuscript tradition does not contain it that it is only found in very in in a very few exceptionally late

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Manuscripts that are almost all post printing press The the question is what is a good argument for it?

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and I think that the the fatal argument the the argument that Absolutely determines without any question that you you have to reject the commie

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Ohanian is that if the the text An important text like that could simply disappear from the

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Greek manuscript tradition then we would have to include if we were consistent all

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Sorts of other readings that likewise are only found in one or two manuscripts one or two late manuscripts a

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Manuscript over here a manuscript over there We would have to include those in the New Testament.

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We in essence would have to reinvent the

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New Testament and The the fact the matter is no one nobody who promotes that Tries to do that.

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No one who promotes that Says that we should add all these other things and so there's a there's a gross

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Inconsistency in the position of those who promote the commie Ohanian at that point

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Quite simply if that kind of text could be original Then the

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New Testament should have a very different look than it does today. It would require massive editing to insert back into the text all of those

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Texts that we that should be there that likewise have this minuscule extremely late type of manuscript support

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Okay, some people tell me that it's in the Byzantine No, it's not No, it is not it is not in any

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Textual family it is not found the majority text it is it is not a Byzantine reading none of that is is the case at all in reality

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It is found only in a in a just a small number of late manuscripts around the 16th century

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It comes in from the Latin primarily. It is a Latin reading that Has found the

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Vulgate it is probably a commentary Or an interpretation of the verse that follows it in Revelation.

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I'm sorry first John 5 8 That was written in the margin of a manuscript and became included in the

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Latin versions Erasmus did not have it in the first two editions of his

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New Testament, which he produced but under pressure included it in the third edition and hence it became the foundation of the

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King James translation as well, which was based on the five editions of Erasmus those of Stephanos and that of Beza Up through 1598 so no it is not the

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Byzantine textual tradition region. It's just not a part of the Greek manuscript tradition period It is that's that lightly testified in the

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Greek manuscript tradition. It's not the majority text or anything like it Okay, are there any?

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Early church fathers who might have attested to it. Well you see at that point whenever you start looking to early church fathers first of all the

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The overarching statement of talking about the three being one would be very very Common during the

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Nicene period though interestingly enough In defending the Trinity and the deity of Christ after the

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Council of Nicaea you don't you don't find people utilizing that text and you would think it'd be the first one anybody would be citing but As soon as you start asking about early church fathers, you have to start asking.

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How do we know what the early church fathers wrote? in other words, do we have a critical edition of even their own writings and How much impact?

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Did those particular? I've got the got the phones back now how much

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Impact did trend the transmission over time have upon their text as well in other words, they had to be hand -copied during all those centuries just like everything else did and I think it's it's very problematic to go to Non -critical editions that are generally very very late of the writings the early church fathers

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Because they generally reflect a lot of scribal emendation to match the current ecclesiastical text of the day

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And therefore that somewhat mitigates the value that those early church writers Writings would have as a testimony to a particular text now if you can demonstrate that the earliest manuscripts a particular writer

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Contains specifically a statement that it says in first John these words. That would be one thing but normally in looking at the early church fathers what you're looking at are allusions or verbal parallels and things like that and That wouldn't be nearly as helpful in this context.

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So again Here's here's the point. Let's say you Want to assert that an early church father made a reference to the concept of three being one or something like that Even if you don't can't demonstrate that it existed in his manuscripts or anything like that If that was original we have not the slightest idea what the

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New Testament originally looked like We don't know we might as well throw up our hands and say it's completely we might as well

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Just join the Muslims and say Really corrupt because if entire

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Segments of the text important theological segments of text can simply dis appear Here we go again.

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We're getting we're getting hit with the with power spikes all over the place I'm not sure what's going on, but I'm not sure that one nailed us.

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It doesn't look like it did but It nailed us. We're still going. Yeah, okay We're getting we're getting hit right and left here.

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So I don't know There's no lightning storm outside. So what the heat it's not it's been been hotter than this today this this year anyway

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There's a friend a friend of mine said that Jerome made a statement like Ungodly men have taken this passage out of the scriptures.

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He's wrong Tell him tell him a document that He's wrong, I mean there's all sorts of myths out there there's

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It's amazing what people will produce and throw out there but Jerome is not a a testament for the

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Kami Ohanian and People sadly will will make things up to present their now does the

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NASB use any minority? Readings and it's and it's and it's in translation.

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Well all modern translations unless they're a translation of the majority text Would use the earlier manuscripts rather than just a majority text perspective

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So all modern translations, so they would have minority readings in them Well, what what do you think a minority reading is?

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One that has very few Greek textual references like the Johanning comma no, a minority well, okay if you want to use it that way, but There are readings that come from the papyri that were written within 250 years of the time of Christ That's appear in all modern translations.

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There's no question about that but That's totally different than looking at manuscripts that were 1600 years after the time of Christ and so yes, there are minority readings in the sense that Many of the the places where the modern translations differ from the

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Translation found the King James Version is Exactly because of that we have far more manuscripts now they go much closer back to the the time of the

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Apostles than we did in the days of the translation of the King James and So the vast majority of scholars believe that the earlier manuscripts are to be given more weight than a manuscript from a thousand years after Christ and the only exceptions would be when that later manuscript demonstrates an independence from the

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Standard text of its day Then that might mean that it is a a copy of a very early manuscript itself but in general a

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Manuscript that has undergone fewer generations between itself and the original over against one that has undergone many generations is going to be more reflective of the original than the the other manuscript is and therefore

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There are many quote -unquote minority readings, but they are based upon the earliest manuscripts Well, what makes the earlier manuscripts more authoritative?

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I just explained that if you have a manuscript that is only one or two generations From the original over against one that's 15 generations from the original obviously each generation introduces the possibility of copyist error or Amending that text to the standard text of the day to the what's most popular to what the scribe might be more familiar with or something like That and so obviously a manuscript written in The 3rd century or the 4th century the 5th century is closer to the original than one in the 14th or the 15th century

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Because that is a copy of a copy of a copy of a copy Versus the earlier manuscripts which are have fewer generations between them and the original and hence have significantly more authority as being significantly more accurate in Reflecting the original text and if a text has about 10 ,000 errors in it wouldn't you consider that kind of sloppy?

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To what do you refer to the Alexandrian? Again you're reading some really bad stuff because so far

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The stuff you're presenting sounds like it's just a bunch of King James only ism, and it doesn't reflect meaningful scholarship at all

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Well Bergen and and both live before the papyri Were discovered and it is just simply an error to make that kind of assertion about either

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Codex Alexandrinus or Codex Sinaiticus Guys in the King James only camp.

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I'm sorry would you put these guys in the King James only camp? The problem you have here is every every time someone goes to 19th century scholarship and ignores the

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Discovery of the papyri and everything that's happened since then You're you sort of have to ask the question.

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Why why is somebody doing that Bergen for example? Was all for For example

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Bergen did not believe in the Kami Ohanian. Look it up he recognized that that was not to be a part of the

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Greek text of the New Testament and If his own Standards were to be applied in the modern context

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Given the discovery of the papyri his position would have to change greatly from what it was in the late 1800s when he lived before that discovery and Those who use his name today and simply quote him

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I think by so doing or demonstrating that they can't really deal with the modern situation as it exists and the manuscript tradition as it exists as well and so when someone says well is there's 10 ,000 errors in in Whatever manuscript you're referring to whether you're seeing

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Codex Alexandrinus or the Alexandrian manuscripts or whatever you're referring to By what standard what's what's the standard that's being used here that the

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Byzantine textual tradition Why can't I use the Alexandrian make the Byzantines? There's 10 ,000 errors in the

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Byzantine Tischendorf was on record of saying that there were four different editors to the

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Manuscript that he found the cyanetic is no question about it when you have a book that is being used for 1500 years there's going to be a few hands that are dealt that deal with it.

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You better believe it We can recognize each one so what that what they're doing is they're crossing out words

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They're putting words in they're doing all kinds of crazy things to the text. That's not crazy things

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They are attempting to make an ancient text look like the modern text of their day And we can examine those things and that's extremely valuable

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Information to us to see the process of them trying to change this ancient text into a text that represents the

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Byzantine textual platform But since we can read the originals then that really actually becomes even more valuable because it illustrates for us the process of time and again it illustrates that the the

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Non -byzantine readings were the earlier readings and so that's that only increases its value.

37:34

It doesn't decrease its value at all It's not quote -unquote crazy things. That's again the kind of rhetoric that you find in King James only material

37:41

But it's not serious Christian scholarship Would you consider? Professor Hills to be a

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King James only. Yeah, you haven't read the King James only controversy. Have you I have your signed copy

37:55

Then you know that I dealt with Edward F. Hills, right? Well was a while since I've read it.

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Okay. Well if you read the chapter on the range of King James only

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Individuals you will see it there's an entire section on Edward F. Hills and his Theological presentation of the supremacy of the the

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King James reading and the theological foundation that it's that's placed upon Yeah, all righty.

38:22

Hey, thanks to your phone call today Robert. Let's Thank you very much, let's go to Jeff well, we still have electrical power and Talk with Jeff.

38:33

Hi Jeff. How you doing? Hi, Dr. White. How you doing doing? All right doing good. Good. Oh before I Get to the questions

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I called about I should probably mention that especially after that phone call That you really need to read one chapter out of the limits of Orthodox theology that deals with the the transmission of the

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Torah it deals with men among of these is 13 principles and It basically says that among of these basically lied in that principle

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That the the Torah text never changed and he knew better but because they're under pressure from Muslims They basically he basically said that in order for you know for the masses, basically

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So I thought you'd you'd probably find that chapter pretty valuable. I Not certain what the relevance of that to the last caller was maybe you could help me out what that Maybe you could help me out how that's relevant to the last caller

39:34

Well because it deals with like textual variations, okay, all right and textual criticism, all righty so So, yeah get the book trust me in regard to I had some questions about justification and new perspectivism and It's kind of a hard topic because once they start redefining word

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You get very confused or at least I get very confused and They seem

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I don't know some of their stuff I've read is not very clear and And I know you've studied and I listened to a few of your lectures in the past week

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That were available online And I had a question about how they interpret or define justify

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Because I know from what I've been reading that NT Wright defines it as more declaring that you're in the covenant community then being declared righteous per se and I was wondering how they

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Kind of would resolve the difficulty at least the more conservative elements in a new perspective movement between James and Paul in Romans If they're defining justify in that way

40:52

I can see how we could resolve it using our definition I'm not sure how they do unless they just say they contradict each other well the vast majority of new perspectivists aren't looking to even do that because One must realize that the new perspective is dependent upon a very low view of Scripture All of those

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Primary sources that are utilized to establish the foundations of new perspectivism would for example reject

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Pauline authorship of Ephesians and first and second Timothy in fact

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They would recognize that if Paul was the author of those books that it would pretty much destroy their entire theory

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They're operating with a very limited Pauline canon, and that's how why would it destroy their theory?

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Well because if you have things like Ephesians 2 8 9 and some of the texts in Titus and Timothy that refer to Justification and the sovereignty of God and salvation things like that.

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It doesn't fit With the idea that justification in essence is not

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It is it is the vindication of the claims of God Through the

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Lordship of Christ which while that is in and of itself a wonderful truth.

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It's Amazing to try to force all other texts to to bear only that meaning

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But EP Sanders and and all the scholarship that is looked to in regards to Second Temple Judaism That the new perspectivists utilize is way left of center.

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Well who knows what the center is today, but And and is is based upon a very low view of Scripture So the very idea of they're trying to harmonize these things isn't something that's necessarily real high on the

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Priority list to begin with now That's what that's what people think in the

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United States Ask someone in England if NT Wright is a conservative Anglican and they will look at you and begin to laugh uproariously when

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I was last in England in May of last year, I had a number of conversations with people and The people who have lived there and dealt with him over time

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Look at us with a bemused smirk upon their face and go wow what an amazing job a marketing can do

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I get tired of I get tired of people on the audio telling me how smart he is

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I know he's smart, but there's a lot of smart people around and Yeah, well, yeah, you know, well and he he writes very big books

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But but the fact the matter is while he at times I have said many times

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NT Wright giveth and NT Wright taketh away in other words If you hear

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NT Wright saying something it sounds conservative to you Keep listening for within the next two minutes.

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He will take back what he just said in some other area I've used the illustration of his debate with Marcus Borg on the

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Resurrection and That was at one point And again,

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I think about it might have been one debate with cross and one debate with Borg But it's been enough. It's been a few years since I was listening to this, but and at one point he's saying look

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We don't know In fact, I think now that I'm thinking about it was both with Borg He says we don't know when the

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New Testament the the Gospels written. We don't know what order they were written in Scholars tell you that they think they know but they don't know

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All this stuff based upon these assumptions is is just scholarly

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Mishmash and you go. All right way to go and then within a few minutes

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He then says that Lazarus wasn't dead That Lazarus had not died in John chapter 11 and you sit there going

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What on earth? You know even Marcus Borg is sitting there going, but Lord he stingeth and you know, so What NT Wright giveth

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NT Wright taketh away and and so there does seem to be just just an amazing

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Big Yeah, well there does but there does seem to be an amazing desire on the part of people in the

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United States to and and I mentioned this with Christopher Hitchens as long as you have a

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British accent, you just must be brilliant and I Think that honestly is part of what's what's what's going on here?

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and so anyway getting back to the new perspective real quickly because we got another phone call to get to get to the idea is that Justification is not something that God transfers from himself.

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It's always the the righteousness of God It's always something that in here's in God and that's why he struggles big -time with 2nd

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Corinthians 5 That's why he struggles with Philippians 3 because Both of those refer to a righteousness that comes from God.

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There's clearly a trans trans furance here there is an imputation idea here and It really is an overarching system that gets crammed into all these verses that in some speaks a truth

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I mean, there's clearly an issue about The the Jews there's not a Jewish Christian Church and a

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Gentile Christian Church That is something that Paul's very concerned about but it does not follow that you can come up with just one meaning of the turn of the dick

46:43

I owed a kaya soon a Group of words and then force that into everything and if you really want to see how it ends up working out

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I'm not sure what lectures you were listening to but listen to his comments on Galatians chapter 5

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When he insists that that in essence The the

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Judaizers in Galatia were still at the table in other words, they were still a part of the church

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Through baptism and he just completely misses Paul's entire point when he says you have been severed from Christ you have been

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You have fallen from grace and before you let me go. Is there would there be a good?

47:23

What would be the best resource especially for dealing with how they redefine? especially the justify term works as I'm kind of familiar with with From Roman Catholic arguments guy guy waters guy waters work on new perspectivism is going to be where you want to start because His bibliography and footnotes will give you all the currently relevant literature

47:47

All the what all the currently relevant literature Okay. In other words you get one book and now you've got a bibliography and footnotes that will help you to get the rest of the

47:57

Information and be able to deal with all the verbiage and yes All right, let's

48:07

I guess the light you're gonna stay on for the rest of the program least we hope I wonder if there's an Accident or something nearby because sometimes somebody takes out a transformer or something like that and poof

48:17

We just haven't had that that's not happened down here Or it could be that SRP just needed a little extra money and so give a little shot and kick in those

48:26

You never know. All right, let's go over to Ohio and talk with race and oh

48:34

Sorry Race give us a call back. I apologize while trying to Do things here.

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I hit the wrong button. I apologize first. I've done that but the guy leaves down for just a little while and then no

48:49

I I had to get my computer back here and It's not fully it's not liking me very much and sorry race give us a call back and we'll throw you back on because I wanted to to Handle your question and go from there

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And if you if you don't call back on you have to play more Todd Bentley and most people are really not wanting you to To do that in any way shape or form.

49:11

So give us give us call back and we'll We'll go on from there. I Did while waiting for him to call he may not even like I don't know

49:22

There's a very small space between air and drop here, unfortunately, and when you're using a touchpad Maybe I need to get in a mouse for this thing

49:30

I just don't have any room in here for for a second mouse on that. But while he while he calls back

49:35

I Won't have time today there it is. I want to have time today to get to this but I'm going to try to sometime here

49:44

Get to a new article is fairly new article on acts 1348 you won't you will not be overly surprised as To who has now written on the subject of X 1340 a race.

49:56

Sorry about that. Thanks for calling back Okay, I have a question about theonomy. Yes. I've just recently read dr.

50:03

Bonson's book theonomy and Christian ethics. Yes, sir and listening to his lectures and Have just started today reading

50:10

Rush to knees Institute's a biblical wall and I just had a if you had any thoughts about Theonomy what you thought were positives negatives or anything along those lines.

50:19

Yeah, we had a discussion about in channel recently and It is interesting the the kinds of reactions you get when you simply use the word because unfortunately for a lot of people the only thing they think of when they think of the term theonomy is

50:37

Parents stoning their children at the city gate or Set, you know everyone having to wear a certain kind of clothing or everyone being forced to be a

50:46

Christian or something like that And if you've read Bonson's work, you know that that's not what he's talking about.

50:52

And that's that's not where he's going with it Obviously as a Baptist I have some some real problems with some applications of what of theonomic thought

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Especially in the idea of the state Wielding the sword in theological issues and anything that would cause a melding of church and state

51:12

So that's that's one thing but the same time I am very firm in believing that every nation and every magistrate and every judge will stand before God and will be held accountable in light of God's revelation of what his law is as to what is just and proper in his sight and That's something that as I see more and more unrighteous judges as I see judges in Western culture

51:38

Doing everything they possibly can to mock God's law and to establish unrighteousness in the land

51:48

I am more and more convinced that part of their their judgment will be this this acting out on their sinful nature and their their utilization of their position in that way, so I Don't think anyone

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I think if people recognize that theonomy simply means the rule of God's law We pray toward that and we say your kingdom your kingdom come your will be done that is something that we want to see happen, but it is the it is the ramifications and it's the methodology that Even as dr.

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Bonson says in his book. There's so much more work that needs to be done in in studying the law and classifying the law

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And in understanding the relationship between God's law and civil governments and things like that, but I Don't think it should be something that people are afraid of looking at And unfortunately a large a large portion of people as soon as they hear that word just recoil in utter horror

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And just assume that it means you want to go out and start killing homosexuals or something like that And that's that's that's not

52:58

Really? What the discussion is about the discussion really? Does lead us into all sorts of I think very valuable areas concerning the?

53:07

continuing abiding validity of God's moral law how God looks at Governments our relationship to government the relationship between church and state these are all things that I think we should be thinking about but unfortunately

53:20

We rarely do think those things through to any any real depth Alright, I guess one of the things that really got me thinking is it when you read

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Romans 13, and you see clearly Things with regard to civil magistrate laid forth

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Where else would you appeal to a standard for which the civil magistrate could appeal to other than the

53:42

Old Testament law? I mean, what would once and I wouldn't even call it the Old Testament law because one of my major disagreements with my new covenant my new covenant of friends and Fellow believers is when they make a distinction and assert the the distinction between The law as in the

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Old Testament law and the law that's written upon the hearts That is promised in the

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New Covenant in Jeremiah and and Ezekiel both I think that that that law reflects

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God's moral character and that when we are regenerated the

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Spirit of God Leads us to that revelation of what God's moral character is

54:26

The the holiness of God is revealed to us with with great clarity in the Old Testament the

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New Testament never Pretends to quote -unquote repeat all of that as if it felt it was necessary to repeat all of that just simply to establish the holiness of God and so I think that that you know, that's not even terminology that I would use because I think that's just simply

54:49

God's law He has has revealed his holy character. Now the question then becomes how do you distinguish and what methodologies do you use does the text itself provide us with a consistent methodology of recognizing what is moral law and what is ceremonial law and where ceremonies reflected a moral characteristic of God That's where even as you recall

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Bonson said there's so much more work that needs to be done in these areas and so on and so forth And so I think it's something that needs to be handled carefully.

55:24

It needs to be handled soberly It does not need to be handled in a radical fashion and obviously some of the presuppositions you bring to the study

55:35

Are going to greatly Influence the conclusions that you come to and someone would say that well you as a

55:42

Baptist bring certain Presuppositions that they're all wrong. Well At the same time

55:49

I would say well, but someone who's a sacralist Who who brings an idea of the possibility of the state church?

55:57

which certainly existed very much in in Europe and Many Baptists died at the hands of state churches

56:05

Not even referring to Roman Catholicism there Would be bringing that presupposition with them and we you know, then then the next question comes can we look at what has happened as a result of that today and Look at Europe today and say wow state church might be something we want to avoid

56:24

Because it's not exactly a positive thing. Is that is that even something you can bring into a conversation like this?

56:31

So there's there's there's all sorts of things to address there. And and I don't think it should be something that is necessarily just Dismissed out of hand and no, we're just not going to talk about that or we're not going to allow it to be talked about so on so forth

56:45

And I think the reason that some people recoil in horror from is because they're they are canonically challenged. They only have 27 out of 66 books and and Really don't have much of a love for what's in the first two -thirds of the book and Don't really have a lot of knowledge of it either upon which to to make any meaningful decisions, so I certainly know many many people many people close to me who have read the books that you're reading and they

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Have not gone out and started their own cult in a compound in Colorado anywhere and in fact gained a lot of Insight from reading those works.

57:23

So I would certainly not warn you away from them I would just say that everything needs to be examined with discernment including such great men as Greg Bonson as well

57:33

I know Bonson mentions that at first whenever his book was published there. Everybody did recoil and Universities would not interview you if you claim theonomy and even within a couple years there seemed to be kind of a more welcoming of Well, I economic position.

57:51

Yeah, and but you also need to realize there's quite a range of people who claim to be theonomists And there's some pretty radical

57:58

Edges to it as well And most people just want to look at the radical edge rather than looking at the the substance of it

58:03

So hey, thanks for giving us a call back and thanks for discussion. I'm sorry about dropping you like that Just hit the wrong button.

58:10

That's first time I've done that but I'm just gonna blame the electrical spikes. How's that? It moved my cursor or something?

58:20

Anyway, well, thanks for the good phone calls week boy. Did we cover a wide range of stuff today? Good grief from the

58:26

Kami Ohanian To new perspectivism to theonomy. Hey, there we go.

58:31

And and Todd Bentley And Gene Robinson, you can't oh and Frank Beckwith good grief.

58:39

What a potpourri of things Anyways, that's what the dividing lines all about. We'll be back Lord willing next Tuesday.

58:44

See you then. God bless The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

59:35

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59:48

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