April 18, 2017 Show with Michael Haykin on “To the Ends of the Earth: Calvin’s Missional Vision & Legacy”

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Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross in downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

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Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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Now here's our host Chris Arntzen. Good afternoon

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida and the rest of humanity living on the planet earth who are listening via live streaming.

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This is Chris Arntzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 18th day of April 2017.

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Well, God willing, we are going to be joined any second by our guest Dr. Michael Haken, who is professor of church history and biblical spirituality and director of the

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Andrew Fuller Center for Baptist Studies at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky, and our intention is to discuss, to the ends of the earth,

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Calvin's missional vision and legacy, but as of yet Dr. Michael Haken has not contacted the studio and he does know about the program because we just spoke with him about a half hour ago, so I'm not sure why the delay with Dr.

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Haken, but hopefully he will be with us very shortly. In studio with me, returning to Iron Sharpens Iron as my co -host is the

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Reverend Buzz Taylor and it's great to have you back on the air with me as a co -host, Reverend Buzz.

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Well, I guess it's good to be back. I say I guess because the reason I wasn't is because I went back to my now non -existent job.

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So I have mixed emotions about this, you know. And I do, I know that you are, the reason

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I call you the Reverend Buzz Taylor is that you are an ordained minister and you are actually looking right now for pulpit supply and possibly even eventually a pastor.

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Yes, I am. Yep, that's the first order of business. So if anybody is listening who knows of a church that has a vacant pastoral office or they need pulpit supply because of a pastor being in the hospital or on vacation or whatever, how would they contact you?

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Well, my email is buzzwords, that's b -u -z -z -w -o -r -d -s, that's buzzwords422 at gmail .com.

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That's buzzwords422 at gmail .com. Great.

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Well, and of course if people forget that email address, you can always contact me at chrisarnson at gmail .com,

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chrisarnson at gmail .com and just ask me how to contact the Reverend Buzz Taylor. I am going to go to an early station break because I'm starting to wonder what's going on with our guest

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Dr. Michael Hagen. Perhaps he got the time confused because he thinks we're something other than Eastern time.

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So I'm going to contact him. We're going to go to an early station break. So God willing, we will be right back with Dr.

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Michael Hagen momentarily, so don't go away. One sure way all

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Or go to BatteryDepot .com. That's BatteryDepot .com. Welcome back.

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This is Chris Arnzen, and indeed we do have Dr. Michael Haken on the line with us.

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Dr. Haken, we already gave you a formal introduction before you came on the air with us, but it's an honor and privilege to have you back on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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Well, it's great to be with you. Thank you. And I'll introduce you to my co -host, Reverend Buzz Taylor.

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Good to meet you. How are you, Buzz? And today we are going to be addressing a very controversial figure from church history and a key figure from church history who has had global impact ever since the 16th century and in some ways has an impact on society in ways that we don't even know.

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There are many people who are unaware of, including the forming of the government here in the

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United States of America and other areas of life that we take for granted.

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I'm talking about John Calvin, one of the reformers of the 16th century, and his reformation took place in Switzerland primarily.

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But Dr. Haken, it might be interesting for our listeners to know why you, as a

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Baptist, revere a man like John Calvin who is not a

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Baptist and had some very, perhaps even harsh things to say about Anabaptists from time to time.

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But there are, as you probably are fully aware, there are Baptist brothers and sisters in Christ who are puzzled why we who are reformed

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Baptists put Calvin in such high esteem in regard to his role in church history and theology.

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Well, I think certainly part of it is, a key part of it is that the

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Baptists who emerged in the 17th century in England initially, and then obviously in the

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United States, learned their faith from those in the

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Puritan movement. And Puritans are deeply indebted to Calvin, as well as a variety of other figures alongside

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Calvin, but especially Calvin in terms of his elucidation and the enunciation of the

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Christian faith. So, the Reformed Baptist movement, Calvinistic Baptists, or as they were often known in the 17th and 18th century, particular

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Baptists, theologically are grandchildren or children, really, of Calvin.

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And so that's certainly a key reason. My Baptist forebears, my theological roots, the theological tradition that I identify myself with is deeply shaped by Calvin's thought.

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And we should probably clear up a couple of things that are caricatures or things that even to the level of slander that have been said and perpetuated about John Calvin, and about Calvinists or theologically

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Reformed Christians. Let's even start there. People who are opponents to what we believe will often say that we have an idolatrous attachment to this man, which even reveals itself in the fact that we very often call ourselves

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Calvinist. Now, I know that there's even disagreement among brethren in Christ who adhere to the doctrines of God's sovereignty and to sovereign grace and so on, as to whether or not to use that label.

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I know brothers and sisters in Christ who agree with me nearly identically in regard to my theology, but who do not like the label

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Calvinist. Some don't even like the label Reformed. But other than the fact that there can be oddballs and nutty people who do actually have an idolatrous attachment to John Calvin, this is really a slanderous attack on us, is it not?

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Yeah. Honestly, I don't know of any key figure in there who would have any sort of relationship or thinking about John Calvin that could be described as idolatrous.

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That would mean that they would revere him as a figure with whom they had no disagreements, his word was law, so to speak.

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That certainly is not the case. In fact, a number of the key figures in that tradition, like Andrew Fuller, probably read very little of Calvin.

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But Calvin is at the fountainhead of the

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Puritan movement, and also, therefore, the Calvinistic Baptist who emerged from it. So yeah, that's really a piece of slander.

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I've never come across any figure in the Calvinistic Baptist or particular

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Baptist movement who has anything close to what we might describe as an idolatrous perspective on Calvin.

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And this book we are addressing today, To the Ends of the Earth, Calvin's Missional Vision and Legacy, is a book that you co -authored with Jeffrey Robinson Sr.

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I want to just read a couple or a few commendations for this book by men who have been guests on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

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First of all, we have Burke Parsons, who is co -pastor at St. Andrew's Chapel in Sanford, Florida, alongside

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Dr. R. C. Sproul. He says, This book sets the record straight once and for all.

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John Calvin was a man consumed with the global proclamation of the gospel, the salvation of souls, and the discipleship of all nations.

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With historical integrity and pastoral insight, Hagen and Robinson demonstrate the beautiful harmony that exists between Calvinistic theology and a robust biblical missiology.

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Here is a call for the Church to share in that same passionate pursuit. Also, Dr.

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Michael Horton, the J. Gresham Machen Professor of Systematic Theology and Apologetics at Westminster Seminary in California, he says,

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Among the many myths surrounding Calvinism is the idea that it is anti -missions.

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Michael Hagen and Jeffrey Robinson draw into one place the many sources that demonstrate the tradition's missionary passion.

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They do so without defensive rhetoric, more out of love for the Great Commission than for any party label.

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You don't have to be a Calvinist to find this story inspiring. And then we have

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Derek Thomas, Minister of Preaching and Teaching at First Presbyterian Church in Columbia, South Carolina, and Professor of Systematic Theology and Historical Theology at Reform Theological Seminary in Atlanta, GA.

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The rehabilitation of Calvin and his robust theology of divine sovereignty as a leading figure in global missions is overdue, and few authors are qualified to do it with such enthusiasm and expertise as Hagen and Robinson.

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Into the ends of the earth, the perennial assertion that Calvinism is destructive of evangelism and missions is convincingly shown to be entirely false, theologically and historically.

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Indeed, the very opposite is the case. Geneva proved to be a center of missionary endeavor and expansion.

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Read this book and then purchase several more copies to give to your friends. I cannot recommend it highly enough.

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And then last but not least, I will go to Dr. Joel Beeky, President of Puritan Reform Theological Seminary.

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Evangelism, missions, and prayer for the lost cannot long endure without a foundation in the doctrines of God's glory and sovereign grace.

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Michael Hagen and Jeffrey Robinson demonstrate through careful historical research that, despite all claims to the contrary,

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Reformed truth has been a vital root feeding visionary and sacrificial efforts to reach the world with the gospel.

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May God use these thrilling accounts to magnify the glory of His grace and to move many

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Christians to pour out their lives for the sake of Christ's kingdom in all lands.

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And that is obviously, as you know, Dr. Hagen, the key thing that Calvin and his followers, his descendants, theologically have been slandered about is the notion that Calvin and his heirs do not, and do not, have any passion for evangelism.

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They do not have any passion to reach the lost with the gospel, to urge the lost to repent and believe upon Christ and follow

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Him. And these things that we have been accused of, although there are hyper -Calvinists who can be viewed as guilty as charged, they are a minority and certainly do not define

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Calvinism and Reformed theology in its majority over the centuries. Am I right? Yes, there have been obviously a few on the kind of fringes of the

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Calvinist movement who have not had a missionary passion. But the standard charge, it begins, you know, really at the time of the

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Reformation with Robert Bellarmine, the Roman Catholic apologist, and has continued down to the present day, repeated by, you know, various missiological histories, as well as those who have an agenda of opposing

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Calvinism, that Calvinism is not evangelistic, is simply not true.

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It's very evident, as we show in the book, from Calvin's own theology as well as his own practice of prayer for the nations, the opportunity he got on one occasion to send a mission trip to Brazil, beginning with Calvin, and then we track through, looking at the

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Puritans into the 18th century. And we could have done a lot more in terms of Calvinistic witness to evangelistic passion.

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I mean, you know, missions in the 18th century is begun largely by Calvinists. Yeah, isn't it true that all you have to do is look at the history of missions to see that?

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Yeah, this is Reverend Buzz Taylor, my co -host. Yeah, yeah, if you look at the history of missions, the modern missionary movement as it develops in the 18th century,

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I mean, it's Calvinists who are caught up in it, at the heart of it, and are at the forefront of it.

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So the charge is one that is, it's amazing that it's repeated, given the history, but I think it's another indication of two things.

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One is just an ignorance of the history, this element of our history, which is a very prominent one.

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And then the way in which political agendas often shape arguments, it's often repeated by people who dislike

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Calvinism. If you want to debate whether or not Calvinism is true from a biblical standpoint, well, that's one issue.

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Don't twist history to justify your arguments against Calvinism.

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And a lot of people, I'm sure you would agree, Dr. Hagen, they use what they believe is a logical chain of thought.

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And they think that if God, before the foundation of the world, already chosen and elect people who will come to faith in Christ and will eventually go to heaven, there is no need for evangelism.

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That's the logical chain of thought that they believe is proof of their presuppositions about what we believe.

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But that is not at all the case, is it? No, no, not at all. And that's a very old kind of canard that's raised again and again and again.

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I was reading yesterday some of the sermons of Hugh Latimer, the English reformer, and in one of them he responds to that very thing.

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He quotes that, well, if the elect are saved by God, what need we preaching?

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And he has to respond to that. And that would be in a sermon that he preached in 1552. So it's something that has come up a number of times.

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Some of it's false logic, as you show there.

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Some of it's driven by an agenda. Some of it's driven by a complete ignorance of history.

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I mean, if Calvinism, in terms of its theological presuppositions and arguments, is anathematic to evangelism, then you've got a real problem.

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That's the real problem, which is trying to explain how could all these Calvinists be passionate evangelistically down through the years, if the two,

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Calvinism and evangelism, are anathema to one another. And so part of what we're doing in the book is trying to lay that myth, which it is a myth, a myth about Calvinism, to rest.

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Reverend Buzz Tiller has another. Well, yeah, a lot of the misunderstanding, too, I think would stem from limiting

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Calvinism to simply the five points, which is what usually people are debating. Yes, yeah.

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I mean, I think it's important to recognize that the very term Calvinism, Calvin would have had problems with it.

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Calvin didn't see what he was doing as simply unique to him. He was arguing for a perspective that was shared by numerous others, and he would much prefer the title

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Reformed Faith. But in that, in Calvin's understanding of what he was doing, there really are two central principles.

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One is that the sovereignty of God in all of life, not only in conversion, which the five points of Calvinism particularly deal with, but in terms of the entirety of life that Abraham Kuyper would say many years later, there's not one square inch of the universe that God does not,

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Christ does not claim to be his own. And that's very Calvin, very, very, very rooted in Calvin's thought, and the sovereignty of God.

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Then the second is that the life is to be lived for the glory of God. And if there are any two defining features of Calvin, that those would be the defining features.

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Wouldn't you say that one of the areas of confusion for our non -Calvinist friends, or dare

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I say even enemies, would be that they fail to take into account when they make accusations that we do not believe evangelism and passionate pleas for the lost to repent and believe upon Christ, is that they fail to recognize that we believe that God, in his sovereignty, uses means that he has ordained and that he commands to bring about the salvation of his elect.

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Even though God could have chosen another way for men to come to faith, he gave us the specific means by which he brings men to faith, and that is when creatures like us, human beings, proclaim the gospel and urge men and women to repent and treat them with love and compassion and kindness in the name of Christ and so on.

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Yeah, one of the things that is critical to the Calvinist perspective is the whole idea of the use of means, and so while God does, by the death of his son and the death of his son for his people whom he had elected, does secure that their salvation by election and then the passion of Christ and then by the gift of the

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Spirit to those, nonetheless there are means that are used and then there is a mystery about this which

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Calvin was quite prepared to acknowledge, that the problem that people have professing

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Christians with the whole area of salvation is a strange one from Calvin's point of view, because while they're quite willing to confess the

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Trinity, which has an element of mystery in it, how can three be one, and the

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Incarnation, the full humanity and deity of our Lord Jesus, which also has mystery in it, yet they bulk at the idea of divine sovereignty and human responsibility, and so yeah,

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I mean, Calvin recognized that in the

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God's work in salvation, while it is God who does it, he is sovereign in nonetheless there is an element of mystery here, which involves how does the human world respond, the whole area of human responsibility, etc.

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Perhaps it would be helpful for you to give a summary of something of the background of John Calvin.

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I mean, we've had other programs where we went into great detail about his life in a

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Roman Catholic family and his conversion, but if you could just give us a summarized view of that.

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Yeah, Calvin was born in 1509. He's born in the northeastern area of France, in an area called

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Picardy, which actually would have been its own dialect. The French that Calvin eventually will preach in regularly in Geneva, he would have to learn when he went up to study it in Paris at the

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Sorbonne. He goes there in the mid -1520s. His father intends him to become a priest.

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His father has challenges with the Roman Catholic Church in the late 1520s and turns his son's attention to law, and so it is that he goes to Orleans, and it is there that he probably first encounters a living representative of the

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Reformed faith, a man named Melchior Vollmar, and Vollmar encourages him to begin learning

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Greek so he can study the Greek New Testament. Over the next number of years,

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Calvin did have other contacts with Reformation people who would have held to Reformation truths, people like his cousin

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Pierre Olivier, and the man that he actually ends up rooming with in Paris, Etienne de

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La Forge. How Calvin is converted, when

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Calvin is converted is not easy to determine, but somewhere in the early 1530s, he only makes one lengthy comment about it, which is in his prefaces commentary in the

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Psalms. He mentions no witness, human witness, but he mentions God's sovereignty and how it was a sudden conversion, which he means probably unexpected.

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By the mid -1530s, though, those holding to Reformation truths are not welcome in France.

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They're given an option of coming back to the Roman Church or leaving the country, or if they stay, they'll be martyred.

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And so Calvin chooses to leave. He ends up in Geneva, where he'll be for the rest of his life, essentially.

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He's there from 1536 to 1538, and is pastoring in the church with a man named

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Guillaume Farel, or William Farrell, and is expelled in 1538 for three years and goes to Strasbourg, which was a very important period of Calvin's life.

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He's mentored by an older reformer named Martin Bucer, as well as meets his wife there.

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Well, he had already met his wife. She was a widow in Geneva, but he marries there and returns to Geneva in 1541, and will be there till his death in 1564.

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He's his main calling to be the preaching of the Word of God, and preaches all through the

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New Testament, every book except for 2 -3 John, Revelation, half of the

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Old Testament, writes commentaries in addition to his sermons, and then, obviously, his magnum opus is his

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Institutes, which goes through five editions in Latin, four editions in French.

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His final edition in Latin is 1559. That's often regarded as the definitive edition, although, interestingly enough, his last

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French edition is 1560, never being translated out of early modern

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French into English, and it's always struck me as curious as to why, because that would be a later edition and a further development.

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If Calvin had lived longer, and he dies in his 50s, if he had lived, say, as long as his successor in the, as pastor

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Theodore de Bez, or Beza, who lived into his 80s,

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I'm sure Calvin would have done further editions of the Institutes. But the

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Institutes earned enormous accolades, both from those who were Reformed, but also some of those who differed on certain elements of the

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Reformed faith, namely the Lutherans. Philip Melanchthon was led by the

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Institutes to describe Calvin as the theologian. Huh, that's interesting. It is interesting because today, and I'm not saying this as a broad -brushing statement,

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I know that there are Missouri Synod Lutherans and conservative Lutherans who have high esteem for Calvinist brethren in Christ, such as I know that even

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Rod Rosenblatt cooperates with Dr. Michael Horton on the White Horse Sin Program.

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But I have encountered a number of Missouri Synod Lutheran scholars and conservative

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Lutherans who despise, utterly despise, Galvanism, and it's interesting to me.

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Is that because they have become something altogether different, or very different, from the

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Lutheranism, and in fact from Martin Luther's theology himself? Yes, in part.

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I mean, there has been certainly developments within Lutheranism, ones with which I'm not really, you know, intimate in terms of knowledge, but there's certainly the core sort of perspectives that we often think of as marking

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Calvin, you know, predestination in particular, for example. I mean, Luther's completely there, and you really,

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I mean, during the Reformation period, you cannot say that predestination, a commitment to predestination, and election, and the sovereignty of God's grace in those areas is a mark of Calvinism, because all the

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Lutherans believe that. What does distinguish Calvinism is its understanding of the relationship of church and state, its place of the

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Holy Spirit. Calvin has a very, I think, a much richer view of the than Luther, and then, well, those will be the two key areas.

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Oh, and the Lord's Supper, the presence of Christ at the table, and it's not predestination that divides

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Lutherans and Calvinists. Now, over the years since Melanchthon, there has been significant changes, obviously, in Lutheranism, and I think

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Lutherans who have no respect for Calvin have imbibed the sort of common mythology.

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It's very interesting to me that in 20th century ecumenism,

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Luther and Lutherans are often, you know, party to major discussions of the Roman Catholic Church, and in fact, there are numerous

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Roman Catholics who will say very nice things about Luther. Some of them even want him canonized, don't they?

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Yeah, but Calvin is still anathema, which is very interesting to me.

30:59

We're going to be going to a break right now. If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

31:07

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, c -h -r -i -s -a -r -n -z -e -n at gmail .com.

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Please give us at least your first name, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

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USA. Don't go away. We'll be right back, God willing, with Dr. Michael Hagan and our discussion of To the

31:24

Ends of the Earth, Calvin's Missional Vision and Legacy. Don't go away.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arns, and if you just tuned us in, our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is

37:14

Dr. Michael Haken, and we are discussing his book, To the Ends of the Earth, Calvin's Missional Vision and Legacy.

37:22

In studio with me is my co -host Reverend Buzz Taylor, and if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

37:30

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, and I got an interesting email from Canada, Dr.

37:37

Haken. I have someone named Heinz, whose last name

37:43

I wouldn't even dare to try to pronounce, and he says, I studied under Michael from 1988 to 1991 and have been best friends ever since and ministry colleagues ever since.

37:55

He sits on our board of Joshua Press and is one of the founders of Joshua Press. So he's just giving you a greeting here.

38:05

And we do have Joe in Slovenia who has a question about hyper -Calvinism, and that is something that needs to be defined, obviously, because people who dislike

38:19

Calvinism will routinely call us hyper -Calvinists, and you wonder why, if they have a disdain for ordinary historic

38:28

Calvinism, why they would even want to attach hyper to it. I don't know why. But Joe in Slovenia says,

38:35

I've never understood why hyper -Calvinism would ever even develop as a theological position.

38:41

I'm referring to the hyper -Calvinism that existed in Britain before Andrew Fuller and William Carey and still exists in some sectors of Reformed theology today.

38:50

Please ask Dr. Haken to explain to us how those supposedly following the theological teachings of someone as thoroughly biblical as John Calvin and the

39:00

Reformers in general could arrive at anti -missions understanding. Thank you for the sharp topic today.

39:06

Yeah, there's probably a number of factors that need to be recognized in the development of what we call hyper -Calvinism.

39:14

One is certainly the argument that was made originally,

39:21

I think, by Lutheran theologians in the mid -17th century, that the

39:27

Great Commission that was given to the Apostles was restricted to them. In other words, the

39:33

Matthew 28, 19, and 20 that we know as the Great Commission was given to the

39:39

Apostles, only the Apostles, and actually fulfilled by them. So that's one argument which argues, therefore, that we have no standing call to go to the nations.

39:50

And there were certain continental theologians, particularly in the Lutheran tradition, who argued that.

39:57

And then in Britain, you have the development of what we call eternal justification, which is that we have not only been elected, the elect are not only given, as it were, to Christ prior to the foundation of the world, but they are also actually justified.

40:18

Their eternal justification, they are actually justified before the whole area of them even hearing the gospel, responding in faith, etc.

40:31

They've already been justified. And this is a problem biblically. There's no indication in the scriptures of this doctrine, but there is a desire to produce consistency.

40:44

If men and women have been called before the foundations of the earth, if Christ died for them, then surely their salvation is secure, and they have, in a sense, been justified.

40:58

A number of Puritan authors, like Thomas Goodwin, briefly, and John Bunyan, even briefly, reflect this.

41:11

Bunyan may have had some of this thought in his later writings, and it would be a very fruitful line of discussion to look at, a line of inquiry to see to what degree did

41:21

Bunyan's thinking, he was very influential in the 18th century, contribute to the development of what we call hyper -Calvinism.

41:28

But the first key figure is Joseph Hussey, a Congregationalist pastor in Cambridge. He argues for, in one sense, the ridiculousness of the kind of evangelist pressing home the gospel with urgency and earnestness.

41:53

Surely, he argued, you simply have to say what God has done, leave it at that, the elect will be called, they're already justified, etc.

42:03

His views became mainstream in certain Baptist circles, for a man named John Skepp in London, and through Skepp, two other

42:11

Baptist figures, John Bryant, and probably the most important Baptist theologian of the 18th century before Fuller, John Gill.

42:20

And Gill definitely is committed to eternal justification. There are questions about whether or not Gill is committed to his critical admissions.

42:27

He was critical of the evangelical revival, deeply critical of George Whitefield, did not believe

42:33

Whitefield was called by God and sent by God. A lot of this is tied up with the problems that Baptists understandably had with the state church of Anglicanism, which had been a major persecutor in the 17th century.

42:50

But Gill is definitely committed to eternal justification, and as such, lays foundations for a non -missionary -minded

43:01

Christianity. Now, would you agree with our friend

43:07

Dr. Tom Nettles that he is to be greatly valued nonetheless, in spite of any faults he may have?

43:14

John Gill, I'm speaking of. Yeah, oh yeah, definitely. Dr. Nettles and I disagree as to whether or not the terminology hyper -Calvinist is to be rightly applied to Gill.

43:25

I think he is, to some degree, a hyper -Calvinist. He doesn't believe in the free offer of the gospel in a real sense, like Whitefield would give it, and also he definitely is committed to eternal justification.

43:39

Having said that, the more I've studied Gill over the years, the more impressed

43:44

I am by him as a godly theologian. It's because of his commitment to doctrine and trinity.

43:51

That's the big debate in the early part of the 18th century, because the emergence of the rationalism, the

43:57

Enlightenment, which basically undermined completely, for instance, English Presbyterianism.

44:03

Here's the denomination of which the core of the Puritans ended up in, and by the mid -18th century, they're nowhere.

44:10

They're basically given up the gospel for a mess of pottage, namely Unitarianism.

44:16

And Gill is the man whom God uses to stand against that, and preserves, in that regard, the

44:24

Baptist witness, Calvinistic Baptist witness. So yes, I have enormous respect for Gill, and because of what

44:31

I believe is an error, namely eternal justification in his thinking, that doesn't mean that one writes him off completely.

44:36

And in fact, it's very interesting when Fuller responds to Gill, you can definitely see in Fuller, Andrew Fuller, a definite respect for Gill, even though he disagrees with him on certain issues.

44:52

And it's interesting that Gill, in his massive commentary on the Old and New Testaments, the first critical commentary,

45:02

Gill's particular theological perspectives on eternal justification, the questions about the free offer, rarely come through.

45:11

Gill is...it's when he's doing theology, apart from the biblical text, that his theological perspectives emerge strongly.

45:21

When he's quoting the biblical text, he is shaped by the biblical text, and that's very important to recognize.

45:27

Here's a man whose key desire is to shape his theology by Scripture, even though I think in those two areas

45:35

I mentioned, I think he goes awry. Yeah, that always, when we hear about things like that, it reminds us of how important, among the other watchwords of the

45:45

Reformation, we should always not only adhere to Sola Scriptura, we should adhere to Tota Scriptura.

45:55

And it seems that the issue of Arminianism or Hyper -Calvinism, it really is in at its root an unconscious rejection of Tota Scriptura.

46:11

It seems that Arminians want to preserve the biblical truths of the responsibility of man and the love of God, and the

46:21

Hyper -Calvinists want to preserve the biblical truths of God's sovereignty and the total depravity of man and the inability of man, and both sides reject or ignore, even if unconsciously, all of those scriptures that speak on the elements that they are overlooking, like in the

46:47

Arminians' case, the sovereignty of God and the total depravity of man, and in the

46:52

Hyper -Calvinist case, the responsibility of man. Yeah, I think you're dead on.

47:01

I mean, what has to shape us is the entirety of the biblical witness. And one of the big debates, and it's an area that is not being studied at all in the 18th century, is this whole issue of the love of God.

47:11

Does God love the wicked, and how does he love them?

47:17

And among Hyper -Calvinists, there is this tendency to limit the love of God severely, in ways that the

47:25

Bible does not. And then on the Arminian case, they failed to take into consideration the overarching sovereignty of God, and as a result, in the development of Arminianism, you get the open theism of the late 20th century.

47:46

They call themselves consistent Arminians. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a logical development.

47:53

So what is very critical is for us to maintain the biblical balance, and I think human nature wants a simplistic picture, and we're not prepared to live with certain degrees of tension.

48:14

And there are tensions. And, you know, from one perspective, the

48:21

Hyper -Calvinist position is logical. It just isn't biblical. That does not mean the Bible is illogical.

48:26

It just means that there are truths here in tension, which we, in our limited, finite reason, which is also fallen, cannot completely solve on this side of glory.

48:41

Now, going back to something you just mentioned briefly, the love that God has for all of humanity, or even all of creation.

48:51

Wouldn't you say, though, that the Arminian blurs the distinction between God's parental and spousal love for his elect alone, and the love that he has, as is demonstrated in his common grace to all humans?

49:07

Yes. Yeah, I think, yeah, there is a failure on the part of, you know, a lot of Arminian theologians to recognize the way in which the love of God is spoken of in Scripture.

49:18

And so, yeah, yep. I mean, like, for instance,

49:23

I can remember years ago, a very dear friend of mine who's an independent fundamentalist Baptist who is a vehement anti -Calvinist, he, during a discussion with me, says, one of the main problems

49:35

I have with you and your fellow Calvinists is that you paint a picture of God loving some people more than others.

49:43

And I said to him, so you're saying to me that God loves those who are spending eternity in conscious torment and punishment?

49:55

He loves you in the same measure and in the same way that he loves them? And he said,

50:02

I guess so. I mean, really, I guess nobody ever posed that question to him before. But to think that God loves us, who are his children, who will spend eternal life with him in glory, the same measure that he loves those in hell doesn't make any sense at all.

50:19

No, no, it doesn't. And again, that's a distinction that can be borne out by, is borne out by Scripture and needs to be made.

50:28

And again, it's a reminder to us that we need to embrace the entirety of the Word of God. By the way,

50:37

Joe, in Slovenia, we are going to be shipping you off a free copy of To the

50:43

Ends of the Earth, Calvin's Missional Vision and Legacy by our guests, Dr.

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Michael A .G. Haken and C. Jeffrey Robinson, Sr., compliments of Crossway and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for BibleBookService .com.

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So keep your eye open in the mail for a package from CVBBS .com.

51:09

And thank you very much for submitting the question. And thank you very much also for providing an American address where we will ship this to your daughter.

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We have Casey, originally from the Philippines, now living in Kannapolis, North Carolina, who says, in fact,

51:28

I'm going to ask the question and then have you answer it when we return from the break, because I don't want to cut you off in mid -sentence.

51:36

His question is, where did the modern concept that election, predestination, and Calvinism contradict evangelism and missions come from?

51:46

And how can we better set the record straight when speaking to others about these issues?

51:53

And in fact, I will forward the email of this listener to you, so you can have it right in front of you.

52:04

And we're going to a break right now. And if anybody would like to join us on the air as well with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

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chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We will be right back after these messages with Dr.

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01:10:43

caricatures and misunderstandings and slanders about the doctrines of grace because uh...

01:10:48

it's interesting that some of our fundamentalist of baptist friends who are vehemently opposed to roman catholicism as one of the greatest evils ever devised by man uh...

01:11:03

they unconsciously or have adopted a view of the will of man that is far closer to rome's understanding of soteriology than the reformers or the scriptures yeah that's true, that's ironic and also because calvinism was the probably the the main in the latter part of the reformation period calvinism was the cutting edge of the advance of the gospel uh...

01:11:36

rome found calvinism particularly insidious uh... and then in the in the seventeenth century rome also again had a battle within our own ranks with jansenism and uh...

01:11:48

jansenism is again it's i mean the main influence on the jansenists, the most famous jansenist being blaise pascal uh...

01:11:56

was augustine and his augustinianism and so there is kind of a double reason why rome is deeply opposed to calvinism not only the reformation but that basically the battle within our ranks with the jansenists who they eventually will argue are heretical and they'll argue they're heretical based on their their augustinian soteriology and so rome uh...

01:12:23

certainly uh... the whole medieval structure that determines a lot of uh...

01:12:29

later roman catholicism through to the basically the council uh... the second vatican council uh...

01:12:37

is one in which human merit plays such a critical role and the human merit is obviously the human beings able by their own free will to merit salvation to merit uh...

01:12:54

uh... heaven etc all right well casey from uh... canapolis north carolina has a second question the exact words jesus loves you and died for you is never spoken of in the bible from the words of an apostle when preaching the gospel yet those who oppose definite atonement say it negates the free offer of the gospel how can five point calvinist faithfully make a free offer of the gospel and stay true to our biblical convictions well this is a very critical questions in that's probably two hundred years uh...

01:13:26

in terms of all uh... the way it's expressed there and uh... and before wrestled with that and he comes to realize that the gospel is not neither i'd use dot u you'd like to talk to you nor is it jesus died for the elect the gospel we preach is that you've got the better and uh...

01:13:50

i mean i think you've got to be elected biblically true what what needs to be proclaimed to sinners is that got jesus died not for you but that you've got the better and uh...

01:14:04

better to uh... that their need all salvation all welcome to come to christ and i think that that in other words there is a free offer of the gospel being made uh...

01:14:17

and he grounded in the fact that christ death is uh... uh...

01:14:22

sufficient for all efficaciously elect the part of the tradition that goes back to dork in understanding what definite element is uh...

01:14:34

and i think that definitely provides a basis in which we can stay true to an understanding of the definite element but also make a genuine free offer and it is a genuine free offer christ invites sinners to come to him if you're a sinner he invites you uh...

01:14:52

without compromising our understanding that christ death is for the elect now i don't want to take us too far afield from our topic here but how would uh...

01:15:03

i have friends in the protestant reform denomination who believe in the indiscriminate evangelism of all people they realize they do not know who the elect are and they do evangelize every man woman or child that providentially comes within earshot of them i mean obviously those who are uh...

01:15:26

committed to uh... christianity because we have uh... many christians of all stripes whether there are many in or calvinist or lazy or or uh...

01:15:37

embarrassed uh... or what have you and they don't evangelize as they should there are many are millions who act like hyper calvinist just because they're lazy or were in or ashamed of their faith but uh...

01:15:49

what is that what is the difference into how if you know i'm not sure if you're an expert on the protestant reform denomination but in regard to the free offer of the gospel because basically they do believe in indiscriminate evangelism but how does that differ from the three or four of the gospel yeah i'm not an expert on uh...

01:16:08

at the department of command the protestant reform perspective uh... i mean they reject the idea of common great and so they would they would argue that god love for the wicked is not love at all and that they don't love the wicked it might my understanding is correct of them but i know they've rejected called concept of common grace and uh...

01:16:31

i would also aware that they reject the idea of the free offer the gospel so it's surprising to me that they would believe in indiscriminate evangelism the free offer the gospel is is freely offering the gospel without any barriers to all and sundry who happen to be hearing uh...

01:16:51

so if they're committed to indiscriminate evangelism i'm not sure that differs from the free offer the gospel i guess it may be more has something to do with the willman offer something uh...

01:17:01

by okay so the whole idea is it is a it is a genuine offer that god is offering to every every individual uh...

01:17:11

yeah i i don't know they're thinking on that and probably need to pass on trying to elaborate they can reconcile uh...

01:17:20

indiscriminate evangelism with the idea of a well -meant offer well thank you casey for your questions and uh...

01:17:26

we are going to be mailing you a copy of free copy of to the ends of the earth calvin's missional vision and legacy by doctor michael a g haitian and see jeffrey robinson senior compliments of crossway the publisher of this book and also compliments of cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs dot com cumberland valley bible book service cvbbs dot com will be shipping that out to you uh...

01:17:53

we have linda from hilltop lake texas as she has a question is a little off the subject but not entirely uh...

01:18:03

she says as a newcomer to reform theology please ask reverend haitian did jesus love judas thank you for this wonderful ministry well i can't do you know that all of this whole area of god's love for the wicked and uh...

01:18:21

there is a sense in which uh... he did love him obviously uh... uh...

01:18:27

he and i would i would read it now from the fact that god made judas uh...

01:18:32

and as a creature there is a sense in which obviously god loves all of his creatures uh...

01:18:39

you have a similar sort of scenario with the the uh... rich young ruler who doesn't appear to have ever accepted the gospel he went away very thoughtful and uh...

01:18:52

we're told that jesus loved him and some people conclude from that that the man must have eventually become saved born again well that that's not told us in the biblical story uh...

01:19:07

it may well be true but what we're told and i think it's an indication uh...

01:19:13

we find it in you know to back up we find in the book of jonah uh...

01:19:18

god's love for it for the syrians and nineveh and jonah couldn't fathom that and jonah's perspective had become this perspective of many of the pharisees of jesus' day when asked the question you know does god love the gentiles why on earth did he ever make them well one answer by one rabbi was god made the gentiles to be fuel for the fires of hell and um...

01:19:43

so you've got this it's not a new question so in one sense yes in another sense uh...

01:19:50

he is among the wicked and jesus says woe unto that man that he was ever born uh...

01:19:57

and so there's a there's a complexity here years ago it's not been a recent read but uh...

01:20:04

d .a. carson wrote a book called the four loves or the difficult love of god that's it that's right in fact i interviewed him on that years ago i'm hoping i remember that being very helpful at the time i don't recall details of it now and so that might be a book that uh...

01:20:22

friend and co -author who wrote in the question might want to pick up and uh...

01:20:29

read well thank you linda uh... for your question and you are also getting a free copy of to the ends of the earth calvin's missional vision and legacy by a doctor haitian and uh...

01:20:42

c jeffrey robinson and keep your eye open in the mail from this before package from cvb bs dot com thank you very much for participating in today's show we have daniel in bakersfield california who says hello chris my question for michael haitian is what do you do when confronted about the dark times in the life of calvin when speaking to an unbeliever or a believer the events surrounding calvin and serbia's could come up in conversations with christians and non -christians and can easily lead a message about the gospel course i hope my question makes sense should you defend calvin to some degree or we've the whole thing into a message of sin in a need of a savior yeah i think i think what that at the event with the data uh...

01:21:33

helps us understand is that uh... calvin was like a a man with clay feet and uh...

01:21:41

uh... everybody in that day uh... apart from you know a few people basically believed in a union of church and state and that's where the problem lies your argument that the state is responsible for maintaining uh...

01:21:57

theological orthodoxy and um...

01:22:02

it's a very rare figure uh... there's a man named sebastian castello who was a correspondent with calvin a friend of calvin who disagrees with calvin over at cervezas uh...

01:22:13

but it's a very rare figure like castello who disagrees with that idea most of the reformers future may be exceptional but most of the reformers the magisterial reformers believed in the union of church and state and that's what gets calvin into his problem uh...

01:22:30

also it's also important to recognize calvin was not a citizen of geneva when that was taking place he became a citizen at the very end of his life but that took place in the mid -fifteen fifties when calvin was not a citizen and calvin had no no direction as to the trial uh...

01:22:46

beyond he was called as a witness for the prosecution and what they wanted him to know at that point was is this man a heretic and calvin yes he is theologically a heretic uh...

01:22:56

also it's also very important to recognize that cervezas was warned by calvin don't come to geneva the guy had a screw loose uh...

01:23:06

i don't know if you've ever read uh... calvin a life by emmanuel stickleberger uh...

01:23:13

have you read that uh... i know of it yeah well he seemed to indicate that that calvin uh...

01:23:22

wanted them to call the uh... execution of cervezas off all together it wasn't just that he wanted a more humane execution beheading rather than burning but that he wanted to uh...

01:23:34

call off the execution altogether he also said that uh... cervezas was calling upon the authorities to execute calvin is that true either of those i've never heard the latter one uh...

01:23:49

and my understanding was that calvin did plead for a more humane death uh...

01:23:55

otherwise it's it's odd to me that castellio who was there at the time broke with calvin over the issue and basically said to calvin you're not defending the gospel you're killing a man and uh...

01:24:07

there's a very famous line in castellio's plea for religious liberty in that regard but calvin as i said i mean he shared the common assumption and everybody had shared this for a thousand years ever since constantine that the state was to be the guardian of of of theological orthodoxy and uh...

01:24:27

the reformation achieved so much but there were certain areas that was one area that it didn't it didn't pursue and that was left to well the witness of the anabaptist but particularly in the english speaking world our baptist forbearers who came to the realization that it is wrong for the state to enforce issues of surround religion and work we're actually back to the same battle all area of religious liberty is under major attack today and that's why uh...

01:24:58

you know history can be very helpful to us uh... uh...

01:25:04

i think there are mitigating factors that need to be taken into account with it with calvin but the final analysis i'm not prepared to whitewash him uh...

01:25:13

he participates in some of the problems of the day uh... and he was wrong just as i thought about forbearers i mean the first uh...

01:25:23

chairman of the board of southern basil manly senior defended slavery and uh...

01:25:30

were they wrong yes they were wrong again it you know it's it's it's very easy looking back to take the moral high ground uh...

01:25:43

well thank you daniel in bakersfield california you've also won a free copy of to the ends of the earth by our guest also co -authored with c jeffrey robertson senior and so keep your eye open in the mail for a book or package from cvbbs dot com thank you very much for contributing a question to today's show uh...

01:26:04

one question before i go to another list request i have heard as you may have accusations by uh...

01:26:13

some of our free will anti calvinist fundamentalist baptists friends and and brethren calvin was a harsh persecutor of the anabaptists but the anabaptist geographically really work in his area in the sixteenth century where you know the well uh...

01:26:34

they weren't uh... there were some anabaptist he encountered who came to geneva uh... he collected the uh...

01:26:41

the woman he married her husband was an anabaptist and that's where he first met her she and her husband came to geneva uh...

01:26:48

seeking to spread anabaptist doctrine uh... calvin's view of anabaptists is negative uh...

01:26:57

other uh... reformers had a more positive view like martin bucher when michael sackler was martyred in fifteen twenty seven uh...

01:27:06

bucher said very plainly although he disagreed with anabaptist polity he was a friend of god and he was a godly man and he believed he had died as a martyr for christ uh...

01:27:17

part of the problem with the anabaptist movement in the sixteenth century is it so diverse you know you have everybody from the zwickau prophets who encounter luther are complete nutters nutzos hahaha they are they don't want the bible they're basically living on dreams and visions uh...

01:27:39

all the way over to people like uh... professor hoopmeyer the swiss brethren with conrad grable uh...

01:27:47

who are uh... evangelical definitely evangelical uh...

01:27:53

uh... we would have problems with some of that their ideas but uh...

01:27:59

that that that that i've read any but none trinitarians like at the beta and uh... proper to be in the poland uh...

01:28:07

it's a it's a it's a it's a big mass of uh...

01:28:12

a conglomerate of a variety of people all of whom had this in common they wanted to distance the reformation of the state yeah and they also they got the label anabaptist because they did not believe in infant baptism and insisted that somebody be baptized upon profession of faith and most of the more fusion is right they did not believe in the immersion but pouring yet virtually none of them baptized by immersion conrad grable i think baptized a man named walter wilfred or something or other one uh...

01:28:45

by immersion but it's almost the very fact that i can give you that one example shows you it was it was very unusual and one last thing about that uh...

01:28:57

and reverend was still has a question as well but of which we will have you ask it when we return from the break we're going to our last break buzz but one last question is it has often been said by people i have encountered or anti calvinists that uh...

01:29:12

calvin was in some way responsible for the deaths of many individuals deemed as heretics who else other than serbia's is connected in any way with with calvin uh...

01:29:26

both that uh... get kicked out of the city uh... i'm pretty certain he was not executed uh...

01:29:31

there might be one or two other executions in geneva uh... it's it's minimal it's minimal compared to other areas of europe uh...

01:29:42

uh... calvin's involvement in geneva that of a massive moral influence uh...

01:29:50

geneva becomes a commissionary center of the reformation definitely in the mid to late seventeenth sixteenth century uh...

01:30:00

it is not a place of persecution uh... you are free to leave if you didn't like it there are many other cities in switzerland where you could go and some people like you know a

01:30:10

Castelio ends up i think in basel which is a much even freer than geneva uh...

01:30:15

people have depicted geneva is kind of a gulag that's completely completely wrong so we have to go to a final break right now if you'd like to join us on the air the question now is the time to do so and chris arnzen at gmail dot com chris arnzen at gmail dot com and by the way daniel in bakersfield california you won our final copy of the book that we were giving away uh...

01:30:39

to the ends of the earth calvin's missional vision and legacy by dr haken and c jeffrey robinson senior so thank you very much for your question if anybody else would like to join us on the air again our email address is chris arnzen at gmail dot com don't go away we'll be right back god willing with dr michael haken have you been blessed by iron sharpens iron radio we remain on the air because of our faithful sponsors and because of listeners like you there are four ways you can help first do you know potential sponsors who may wish to advertise their goods or services on iron sharpens iron radio second whenever possible purchase the products or use the services that our sponsors advertise and then let them know that you heard about them on iron sharpens iron radio thirdly you can also donate to iron sharpens iron radio by going to our website at ironsharpensironradio .com

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01:35:19

haken we are discussing to the ends of the earth calvin's missional vision and legacy and before the break reverend buzz taylor wanted to ask you a question well yes i want to carry a thought further that we started at the beginning of the program uh...

01:35:34

you were talking about the influences that uh... calvin had on our own society and chris you even mentioned about uh...

01:35:41

the form of government and so forth and i was wondering if you could connect a few more of the dots for us as to uh...

01:35:47

how he has influenced what we have today yeah i think it's through the puritans definitely uh...

01:35:54

by the fifteen seventies when puritanism is emerging men like thomas hardright who was at cambridge are heavily reading calvin's work uh...

01:36:04

his sermons that were available in english institutes that were uh... had already been translated uh...

01:36:11

and so puritanism is deeply shaped by calvinism uh... most of the puritan leaders unlike century calvinists like jonathan edwards uh...

01:36:22

and andrew fuller edwards read very little of calvin uh... and uh...

01:36:28

fuller also appears not to have read tons of calvin the puritans though read a lot of calvin and uh...

01:36:35

puritanism uh... is a movement that raises issues regarding religious liberty it's amazing to find in the sixteen forties during the english civil wars oliver crumwell and his generals discussing in what are called the putney debates the whole area of religious liberty what were they fighting for in the civil war namely freedom of conscience and the language they use calvin uses uh...

01:37:05

rather crumwell uses uh... language like uh... freedom of conscience and religious liberty is a natural right and you think am i reading somebody in the mid sixteen hundreds or is this uh...

01:37:18

seventeen seventies and the reality is that uh... it was the puritans who raised these issues we often trace them historically back to people like john locke and that it was john locke who was deeply influencing people like thomas jefferson and benjamin franklin but the reality is locke sat under the puritans he studied at he studied at uh...

01:37:40

at oxford under john owen and the whole idea i mean it's john owen who writes that fabulous preface to the savoy declaration where he talks about how uh...

01:37:50

one of the one of the one of the privilege one of the great gifts of the gospel is religious freedom and that uh...

01:38:00

that the spirit leads men by gentle persuasion not by the brute arm of the state and that the spirit leading of men this way would lose uh...

01:38:09

it's luster if it were not for that sparkle of freedom it's amazing and uh...

01:38:15

we've again we've forgotten a lot of this and so the dots can be connected through from calvin through the puritans uh...

01:38:22

to the the founding fathers it's also uh... french calvinism that develops the whole right of resistance to tyrannical government people like beza uh...

01:38:34

duplessis mornay uh... uh... pierre du moulin in the seventeenth century but the faith the persecuting catholic state of uh...

01:38:45

in france who developed the but the idea of is there a legitimate time in which subject can disobey their governor their government their government and whatever perspective you take on that uh...

01:38:59

that is done doubtably a major influence uh... down through the years uh...

01:39:05

upon the the founding fathers well thank you buzz and uh...

01:39:11

we have uh... jeff in clinton township michigan who says being the father of a millennial aged daughter i've heard the words missional and community in her vote vocabulary for the last couple of years the church she attends is very proactive in helping the poor and reaching out to the local community with practical help i'm very glad to see these young people involved in this type of work my question is how does one distinguish between ministry outreach like this in a dangerous type of social gospel which appears to be making a comeback allot jim wallace and sojourners i appreciate all three of you guys uh...

01:39:57

and just as hope the text is big enough today because i have to enlarge it usually when he says in his emails are microscopic uh...

01:40:05

fonts but anyway uh... dr haitian any response yeah i think i think it's helpful to recognize that the the whole area of the social gospel what we call the social gospel uh...

01:40:17

which developed in the eight nineteen century as a really a replacement for the gospel uh...

01:40:24

it grows out of the fact that in the evangelical awakening the puritan movement and even calvin's geneva there is a great concern for social justice uh...

01:40:35

calvin's geneva had programs to help the poor uh... that the calvin revivified the whole office of the deacon at somebody who is involved in the life of the church helping with practical needs of necessity in the lives of the congregation uh...

01:40:53

the puritans were very concerned about this and then you get men like johnson edwards and for edwards one of the marks of revival genuine revival is when there was a concern among god's people for the poor and uh...

01:41:07

he mentioned that in his uh... papal narrative of a surprising work of god it is one of the yeah he had five marks and with the one of the part of the fifth mark is that this genuine love uh...

01:41:18

for others expressed impractical deeds in his religious affections the twelfth side isn't deal for good work and so i i think one of the challenges of the last hundred years has been the development of the social gospel and of the concern which is a rightly placed concern that the killing of good deed is all that we need to do uh...

01:41:44

and that that that that the very genuine concern but i think we do need to also recognize that where there is true christianity there's a lot that expresses itself in good work people i'm sorry uh...

01:42:02

doctor he can you said something that was all garbled and i couldn't understand it uh... sorry uh...

01:42:09

yeah expresses itself in the life of zealous for good work yes and i don't know what you did differently but you do you now you're clear but just a moment ago you were all garbled i have no idea what that why that happened uh...

01:42:21

thank you uh... jeff from clinton township and keep uh... clinton township michigan and keep spreading the word in michigan and beyond about iron sharpens our radio we have chris from ronald's iowa i'm interested to hear mister higgins thoughts on whether christian missions were a major focus on the church in the centuries prior to calvin at least in regards to seeking a convert seeking to convert sorry seeking to convert men and women did calvin receive the same criticism that we have today that his theology is opposed to the spread of the gospel thank you for writing and discussing this topic yet the uh...

01:43:04

the uh... the accusations in calvin's day work a little different element for instance the roman catholic apologist argues that uh...

01:43:14

the reformers were not involved in mission he doesn't take it back to their theology per se he just argued that they were not involved in mission and to some extent that charge was true because uh...

01:43:28

geneva with landlocked uh... and what do you think when delamitte gave mission he's thinking of the mission in quotes i would put it in quotes of spain and portugal in latin america what we call latin america and central america is more imperialistic conquest that actual missionary progress uh...

01:43:51

uh... and geneva what involved in any of that sort of stuff because they didn't have a navy and if you look at what we catholic countries the the you didn't have babies like poland they too weren't involved in any sort of kind of outreach uh...

01:44:08

so uh... if you if you look at the week to balance kick the accusation was that the the reformers were not missions minded and therefore not apostolic all idea of a apostolic city being linked to mission uh...

01:44:23

they argued that what the robert catholic church is apostolic because it's doing missions reformers aren't but calvin was doing missions and for him the mission field with europe the gospel had to be replanted literally replanted uh...

01:44:39

but a great story of hugh latimer uh... going to a village in england it given notice at a time that he's coming to preach he gets there the church is all shut up shut up he waits half an hour probably goes out in the village looking for people find a man if you'd like you know i i think you were to have a time that come to preach this sunday where is everybody always at the bank that don't it's it's a lot about robin hood's birthday uh...

01:45:06

but it is legendary criminal it's robin hood's birthday we're celebrating robin hood hahaha and latimer writes about this and he says this is a horrible horrible event that people would rather celebrate robin hood than listen to the word of god and that that that's the reality throughout europe i mean there was so much ignorance so calvin was missional he trained upwards of upwards of two thousand ministers to go out to the missionaries mostly to france but other parts of europe it's a tremendous missionary passion we detail it in the book tyler in mastic beach long island new york says is it true that calvin was not only a theologian but also had the shepherd's heart of a pastor yeah i think that i think that is true we don't cover that so much in the book uh...

01:46:03

but there has been a lot of number of works that have looked at calvin as a pastor and uh...

01:46:10

calvin was primarily involved in preaching that's what he saw his main calling to be there was a company of elders but calvin was to some degree involved in that but certainly calvin's theology is a rich pastoral theology uh...

01:46:26

he saw the handbook the institute's theological textbook as a handbook of piety and pastoral care and uh...

01:46:36

so yeah definitely uh... calvin is very much a a man of a pastor a man who has a pastor's heart thank you tyler and keep listening to onion trip in zion and spreading the word in mastic beach long island and beyond uh...

01:46:50

it was such a pleasure seeing you at the gospel coalition conference in indianapolis and uh...

01:46:58

during your workshop which to me was one of the great highlights of that event and i mean that with all sincerity at the thought that your message was one of the very best messages delivered at that uh...

01:47:11

conference was that your workshop you brought up missional praying and in your book you discuss advancing the kingdom of christ through missional praying if you could touch that yeah i think you can't beat it in calvin uh...

01:47:25

i mean obviously this goes all the way back to people like augustine but you've been in calvin what calvin would do at the end of his sermons he would he preached only about forty minutes the company of elders in geneva recognized the value of calvin's preaching and appointed a number of people but particularly a man named denise reginier to uh...

01:47:46

record everything calvin said in the pulpit by which they meant his sermons calvin always preached about notes now denise we owe denise an enormous gratitude because we have about two thousand sermons that we wouldn't have any of them if denise had not done this work he didn't put his pen down but calvin would normally at the concluded the sermon would normally say something like now let us turn to the lord which meant that we were going to they were going to pray as a concluding prayer after the sermon denise kept writing and what you see in these prayers is a concern for the spread of the gospel among other things but definitely a concern for the spread of the gospel that what calvin is preaching in geneva and if you went and listened to calvin week after week you received a theological education that virtually nobody had received in europe since the days of the early church what calvin was preaching and teaching that it might be spread to the ends of the earth you find that in the puritans uh...

01:48:49

the puritans not all of them but number of them praying for the spread of the gospel to the end of the earth and then probably the man who i think you know where you have to regard it the grandfather so to speak of the modern missionary movement jonathan edwards uh...

01:49:04

edwards becomes convinced and he's drawing together a number of lines of argument here biblical but also some from the puritans men like cotton mather that one of the ways in which god advances his kingdom is through the corporate praying of god's people and i think this is a critical area where we desperately need to learn from our forbearers in the faith and namely communities gathering christian communities gathering together to pray for a bible and the advance of the gospel simply that many of my one of the reasons i think the decline of the prayer meeting has taken place is that all too frequently it simply became our local concerns are in our own personal concerns which are we have to pray about course we have to pray about and share with our brethren but we lose the bigger vision of the sort of prayers that motivated paul when you read paul's prayers in the scriptures it is a larger larger vision our lord's praying you know uh...

01:50:05

we were to pray for the glory of god uh... the spread of his kingdom before we ever turn to our own personal concerns of forgiveness of sins and getting daily bread and uh...

01:50:17

edwards realizes this and i think it can be demonstrated that it was through the prayers of the eighteenth -century people building on the prayer life of the puritans that we see the advent of the modern missionary movement and missions is born in the cradle of prayer as it were, or the womb of prayer to maybe be more consistent there i can remember uh...

01:50:41

john riesinger years ago at a bunion conference and that's named after the great john bunion and it's not a podiatrist convention it's named after john bunion the author of pilgrim's progress but uh...

01:50:57

the the bunion conference where john riesinger was saying that uh...

01:51:02

when he was a new convert to calvinism he was becoming frequent increasingly frustrated with the arminian preaching of his pastor and he said while the man was preaching he was very often just doing private meditations on the scripture on his own and not really paying attention to the pastor uh...

01:51:26

but he said i knew that when i heard the pastor say let us now bow our heads in prayer john said that he would close his bible and listen intently because the man gave the most eloquent calvinistic prayers he ever heard about the lord please give new hearts to those who are lost among us please open the eyes of the blind and unstop the ears of the death please lord save those who we love who are so far from you and and and it's interesting how often our arminian brethren or those who are non -calvinist or anti -calvinist when they pray they pray exactly like someone who is a thoroughly committed calvinist and uh...

01:52:14

before we go i want you to touch on uh... developing a missional passion something that you also address in the book as an instrument of establishing the empire of my dear lord yeah i think uh...

01:52:30

i think this runs along a number of lines one of them certainly is prayer uh...

01:52:36

uh... praying for the lost uh... and that that have to be a corporate event you know it's it's it certainly is it it's something that we do in concert with other believers uh...

01:52:52

reading biographies men like uh... you know to the golden shore the life of adnan judson uh...

01:53:00

reading murray mcshane uh... his memoirs uh...

01:53:05

people like andrew fuller uh... that that that's also enormously helpful uh...

01:53:12

asking the question how does god view the lost in the new testament uh...

01:53:22

so meditating on bible bible text and then basically getting to know people who don't know the lord and uh...

01:53:33

asking the lord to give you a heart of love for these people and uh...

01:53:41

kerry when kerry went to india he often said it was it was through meditation on and the preaching of the cross and why jesus died for sinners and the great triumph of the gospel would come through a cruci -centric a cross -centered focus and uh...

01:54:06

that also had to be true today there's a number of areas there that i think are helpful in trying to develop a passion, a missional passion or a missionary passion for the lost cj in lyndonhurst long island new york wants to know i have heard that calvin in his later years departed from some of the theology contained within the institutes of religion that he himself authored is this true?

01:54:34

the answer to that is a pretty simple one it's two letters, it's no i don't know where you heard that brother but alvin wrote the last edition of the institute the french edition fifteen sixty you know it's only four years before he dies and there is no indication that he changes his perspective.

01:54:59

His views have deepened over the years, but there is no significant change of direction.

01:55:07

They deepen, they broaden, but changing, no. Now I remember

01:55:14

I had you on the program not long ago when you were discussing how obviously the structured, systematized acronym of TULIP came about during the remonstrance when the

01:55:32

Calvinists were responding to the five points of Arminianism, but in the

01:55:37

Institutes and in Calvin's belief system, how close was he to the

01:55:43

L in TULIP? Was he actually a believer in limited atonement, or as many of us prefer it to be called definite atonement or particular redemption?

01:55:52

No, it's not clear. I think

01:55:59

Calvin believed in particular redemption or definite atonement. There are passages in which he clearly states that.

01:56:08

There are other passages, though, like his commentary is on 1 John 2 .2 where he talks about Christ's death for the whole world.

01:56:17

Is he simply repeating the biblical text at that point, or does he have a different perspective?

01:56:27

The critical thing to remember is that this was not an issue in his day. It doesn't become an issue until the rise of Arminianism.

01:56:35

And I think that's one of the most difficult things about study of Church history, is that we want our people who are reading, especially great theologians like Calvin, to answer questions that are posed later, and they didn't answer, they weren't wrestling with those questions.

01:56:52

And it's very, sometimes very difficult for later students to avoid reading back their concerns into earlier generations.

01:57:04

And that's one of the critical things that we do, you know, at Southern in teaching Church history, is what we're trying to do is to listen to, say,

01:57:14

Calvin. Let's say we're studying Calvin. What are his concerns? Listen to him before we ask questions that are concerns that we have.

01:57:25

And that's not easy. And I think one of the marks of a great historian is the ability to understand a period from within the period.

01:57:37

You view, so a great student of Calvin has read enough of Calvin and knows the era well enough that he knows what

01:57:46

Calvin is seeking to say in the context of his own times. Then, and I think this is also a part of a great historian, he's able then to apply how

01:57:57

Calvin speaks to our issues today. But that first issue is so critical.

01:58:05

And so the issue of the debate about particular redemption was not going on in Calvin's day, and so he doesn't address it directly.

01:58:14

But his theological system demands it. Yes, I mean, if you said that he believed in definite atonement, and if he was not a universalist, he must have believed in limited atonement in some sense, because if the

01:58:30

Lord definitely atoned for those for whom he died, then he couldn't have died for everyone.

01:58:37

Right. And Calvin says that on occasion, but there isn't the sort of consistency that you would find, say, in John Owen.

01:58:49

It's not there. But as I say, it's not there because it's not an issue. And he doesn't have to, he's not guarded in his statements about the death of Christ for the world, because nobody's misinterpreting him.

01:59:04

But later, when that becomes an issue, then I think he would have sided with those who would have framed the articles of Senator Dort.

01:59:15

Well, we are out of time, and anybody listening who wants to find out more about Dr. Hagen can go to the

01:59:20

Southern Baptist Theological Seminary's website, sbts .edu,

01:59:26

S -B for Southern Baptist, T -S for Theological Seminary, dot edu. You can also go to crossway .org,

01:59:33

crossway .org, to find out more about the books he has written for them. And you can also go to cvbbs .com,

01:59:40

Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, to find out more books from other publishers by Dr.

01:59:46

Hagen, cvbbs .com. Thank you so much for being on the program, Dr. Hagen, and I look forward to your return.

01:59:51

And I want you all to always remember, for the rest of your lives, that Jesus Christ is a far greater Savior than you are a sinner.