Smash Mouth Incrementalism and Abolition

Sure, you know, who's weird right? Mm -hmm.

Oh, oh, we're live. Okay, here we go Gabe are we good Okay, all right,

I'll run it rock a boat without a countdown I don't want to rock the boat I want to sink it

You gonna bark all day Little doggie, are you gonna bite? Delusional yeah delusional is okay in your worldview.

I'm an animal. You don't chastise chickens for being delusional You don't chastise pigs for being delusional. So you calling me delusional using your worldview is perfectly.

Okay, it doesn't really hurt Desperate times call for faithful men and not for careful men

The careful men come later and write the biographies of the faithful men lauding them for their courage

Go into all the world and make disciples not going to the world make buddies not to make brosives, right?

Don't go in the world make homies Disciples, I got a bit of a jiggle Nick That's a joke pastor when we have the real message of truth, we cannot let somebody say they're speaking truth when they're not

True Proverbs chapter 20 verse 10 unequal weights and measures and unequal measures are both alike an abomination to the

Lord and Then verse 23 unequal weights are an abomination to the

Lord and false scales are not good Proverbs chapter 20 y 'all welcome back everybody to another episode of apology a radio

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Yeah, and it doesn't make any sense. It's madness and It's criminal it's a gift from God and And if you're not taking advantage of it, you are missing out

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Bonson you account I'm Jeff. They call me the ninja. That's Luke the bear. Happy st. Patrick's Day One of us is right.

That's right. You're wearing the green. He's ready every day with that Bible. That's right There you go, but it's a green sword for all my brothers and sisters in Northern Ireland.

I know I'm wearing the wrong color I apologize, but in the u .s. If you're not wearing green you get pinched. That's right I actually was wearing an orange shirt this morning and my daughter pinched me and I was like, excuse me

Yeah, I'm wearing the correct color. Yeah, but you know letting anyone know the studio right now If you pinch me cuz

I'm not wearing green there's gonna be you're gonna get around. You're gonna catch some hands Uh -huh, that is

Zach Conover that is our director communications for end abortion now, what's up y 'all?

What's up? Hey, welcome everybody. We have a lot to talk about today. Hopefully this episode will be a great blessing to all of you

Thank you all for joining us on a live feed right now. So we have a lot going on We have just announced so you guys can participate with us

Easter pageants coming up soon Mormon temple and Mesa so excited very excited about that One of my favorite times of the year finally opened back up again opportunity to witness to thousands of Mormons Latter -day

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Everything if someone's getting the gospel through this channel, you're a part of it. So we also are going back to Denver y 'all

April the 2nd We're gonna be in Denver at to the state capitol to do a rally for our bill for equal protection

In Denver state capitol 2 p .m. 2 p .m. And then the next one we have on the schedule that's coming up is going to be

Louisiana, yeah, Louisiana, Louisiana April 30th, April 30th, Lucy Lucy. I'm such a hard time

Louisiana I'm just supposed to say Louisiana. Okay, I gotta Programming, you know,

Louisiana, April 30th state capitol, that's all

And I don't know. I think we have a time for yet. Do we know not that I know of.

Okay, so, you know the day All right, it's April 30th. Come and join us. We need you all hands on deck

We're very excited about what's happening in, Louisiana. I still didn't say right, Louisiana Just like you're losing like like I had to I had to relearn

Because everyone sees on the map and you go Louisville, Kentucky There's an eye in there and you're not allowed to say that there because they'll strike you you have to say

You have to just relax the jaw and say Louisville Louisville. That's how you say it.

It's one soul soul soul So anyway, I had to relearn it. I gotta relearn this. Okay, so you're losing your proper grammar

Yeah Improper but beautiful Beautiful people, you know, it sounds beautiful So that's what's going on at least on the schedule.

We have more coming all glory to God for what's happening bills of equal protection in Colorado in Louisiana and Lots of places it's coming.

So we need you on the ground for that guys If you're anywhere near those states come and join us We really really need you with us in this and to let churches know in your area that it's going on And so we also have big announcements huge announcements very excited and I'm telling you this stuff is like around -the -clock

Preparation we have some very exciting things in store for you all we are going to do the conference of all

Christian conferences we are building this in such a way that we hope that it is a tremendous blessing and So different than the standard fair Christian conference that you're used to where you just kind of go

Listen to talking heads for 45 minutes and just get piledrive with you know messages for for two or three days

Not that that's bad, but it you know, we want to do this in a way where it's it's not a church service It's it's a

Christian conference so you're getting fed but you're also getting the fellowship and you're getting to Hang out and do all kinds of amazing things and even get inspired by some incredible performances from the best in their field

And so we are doing reform con 2022 reform con 2022 perfect time to we had to move it

We were planning on doing doing at the beginning of this year But we just had to move it because it wasn't gonna be what we wanted to deliver to you all and so we moved it

And it worked out perfect to reformation day weekend 2022 pastor Luke. You want to tell everyone?

What's up? Yeah, so you can go we just went live actually today with registration So I know we've been announcing this for a while, but we are alive

You can go now to reform con org and go ahead and get your tickets. It is the early bird right now

So if you get in right now, you'll get cheaper admission For probably a couple months we haven't set a timeline on that yet But go now get your get your tickets early get a good price for that So I think it's 160 bucks right now is the early bird

Do you have to put your 160 like hammer it to a wall on a church?

Is that how you RSVP or well, I just want to say one thing. That's good The one thing I want to say about the 160 for the conference is that it's cheaper than fight -laugh -feast conference

The those are our boys. We love them very much cross -politic, but our conference is not only cheaper, but it's actually better and We have so much we have so much that we're doing.

We don't even want to say at the moment Because you know, it's not going to be in a cattle arena with screens that you can't even see

It won't be like that it won't have you know, no security at the door So like you don't even need to buy a ticket

Yeah, which was the last last fight -laugh -feast love the guys love the teachers and all that But there wasn't even security at the door so people could just walk in.

I don't know why you bought tickets It was basically it was basically a free event And so, you know, we're not gonna do that.

We're gonna have you know, we're gonna honor people bought tickets We're gonna have standing at the door checking your ticket so that you know You paid for something and you got what you paid for We you know, we're not gonna treat, you know human beings like animals

I putting in my cattle arena And you will be able to see the speakers promise We promise you that you'll be able to see the speakers this time for ours

Yeah, so but our our conference is cheaper than theirs. It is fight -laugh -feast. Yeah. Yeah. Looks like we fight harder

Yeah, and this is very funny so Fight harder to keep money in your pocket

Man we love So, yeah, so reform con website again is reform con dot

Org reform con org go get your tickets. We have great stuff happening I'm telling you there's gonna be time to hang out with us

There's gonna be time to just sort of fellowship and feast and hang out and just a great time

We're also and like I've mentioned we're gonna have Performances in different areas the name of the conference is by this standard

Standard is the Word of God And so we want to demonstrate that the Word of God goes into every area of life whether it is education

Governments whether it is the arts whether it is economics, whatever So we're gonna have specialists in their field leaders world leaders in their field for each sort of category and even some some interesting

Performances to sort of inspire and motivate everybody to get involved as a Christian with the Word of God at your feet as you and as You engage in all these areas

Of why do I sign up? Yeah, that's exactly Where you sign up and by the way,

I don't know if I mentioned this is cheaper than fight -laugh -feast conference And did I say better you did

I did say better? Yeah, you could circle back around and say you'll be able to see the speakers Hey It's got this directed not to derail this conversation you mentioned pile driving earlier

Did you just do you see Razor Ramon died this week? Oh, yeah I don't I don't think Jeff watch pro wrestling.

No, I did when I did when it was like Hulk Hogan Yeah, so he and there was the ultimate warrior at the end of I was watching it when it was like really getting off the ground and famous You know was

Andre the Giants and Razor Ramon was more mid 90s. Yeah Wasn't that old as in the 60s.

Mm -hmm probably steroids a common and pro wrestlers are it? Yeah Razor Ramon.

Yeah Why is he called razor he always had a razor in his mouth or something didn't he

I don't think so Yeah, he was a kind of the quintessential bad guy he made it kind of cool to be bad

His move was called the Razor's Edge. I think I see Anyways, I had this kind of like this kind of like suave look with the slick back hair and the toothpick.

I remember Like this kind of why is it gonna be

Cuban? Well, that's just kind of Joking it's just playing into the real name was

Scott Hall. It was like the least Cuban name ever Alright, it was as white as it comes.

So well, thank you very much Anyway, I did the conversation. I apologize. All right, so welcome

Thank you guys for joining Norseman 93 Gave us 20 buses now.

God bless you all new Christian here. Hey, thank you Norseman very very much. Praise God for your salvation and Hope you get hooked up to a solid church and get fed and get get growing get and be used by God Sorry, I'm laughing because James O 'Brien came on there mentioned

Ricky the steamboat dragon. Oh I completely derailed this conversation.

Yeah. All right. Yeah, it's all right Anyways, there's no rules.

Yeah, I used to have all the toys I had Hulk Hogan Had all that stuff. Yeah, I was big into it.

I know you I stopped. I don't know, you know when you found martial arts Yeah, I stopped.

I don't know. I think I stopped right around when air wolf started That was a good show that was a great

Phrase down I got into you know, Knight Rider and air wolf and you know, exactly.

No, man I still want good times 80s was a good time Nostalgia is washing 80s was a good time

Care Bears You had a what was the show the Jim Henson show where they ate the glass of Fraggle Rock?

Down with Fraggle Rock I came in at the end of the 80s So I'm kind of dating y 'all and who remembers of course when

Nickelodeon became a big thing Coming home from school every day you had to watch as soon as you came home from school you had to watch

The show double dare what no was a show where they got slimed where they entered it was a double dare That was a show.

That was what was called Rugrats or were you were if someone told her where if someone said I don't know wasn't it

I don't know you got slimed wasn't hey who in the comments and remembers this I think it was what was it you had to say something in that show and this is what made

Nickelodeon famous with the Slime you had to say something in the show where like if you said the word you got slimed I think it was I don't know.

I remember the slime. All right Well, this shows you how old I am. Yeah. Anyways, someone did ask if there's an age limit for reform con

No, I should know the answer that no, we want families to come Sing babes and bring your fan.

Bring your kids. Absolutely. It's everybody. I well we didn't mention we did not mention this about reform con it's very very important because We are not like other conferences and we want to actually give you a nice you can't say that on television

You can't say that on television, that's exactly right and it was I don't know I did get slimed in double there though, so Mark Summers Because we are trying to do this in a venue where you're gonna be comfortable

It's beautiful surroundings and you can see the speakers and things like that. Yeah, not like a cattle arena treating people like animals

We wouldn't do that to anybody but it's venue because it's a nice venue and it's in a great area of town

Accessible to everything. I mean you're 10 minutes from the airport's good food You can walk to great food.

I mean it's right across the street It's a huge a shopping plaza with all kinds of things to eat We're gonna have you know food trucks and all the stuff, you know showing up because it's just you know

We care about taking care of our people that come to our conference. And so because of that Because we're not like other conferences.

We only have room for a thousand seats That's a good point to bring up. It's only a thousand seats

Not very many better jump on it if you if you want to come we anticipate being completely sold out

So if you want to come and come at a cheaper rate, which is already cheaper than other conferences You need to get your tickets soon

So I really recommend doing that because it is a limited seating and once it's closed it's closed That's it.

So you do need to you do need to get your tickets soon. Darren brought up a good point, too He said we will not be telling people to baptize their babies.

No, no, no, no, that won't happen Thank You Darren, we'll respect that we'll respect the fact that you have yes, but we won't be we won't be bombarding you with the

Baptist No, no baptism bats. That's right. No baptism bats We don't do that and because we just don't treat people like animals in cattle arenas.

We just don't do that You know how that relates to baptism Your guess

I don't know, but we don't do that. So reform con dot o RG is where you go

Speaking of speaking of our boys over at fight laugh feast and cross politic Starting with this everybody knows that we all work together and we love each other.

We love them so much, I don't know how much content we have that is is Christ Church guys and Apologia working together fair share.

It's been a long long long long time. We've served God together We we talk about the same things we believe essentially the same things

Across the board. I mean the major disagreement we would have Would be on the issue of infant baptism and that's something we we keep in a way where we can continue to love each other and serve one another and And we care for one another and we serve

God together a whole lot I want to say I have eaten together with the Christ Church guys shared meals been in their homes more times than I can honestly remember and And They're like my favorite people in the world.

One of my favorite places to go in the world is Moscow, Idaho Especially during Christmastime when there's snow on the ground.

I Love Christ Church in Moscow. I love Doug. I love Toby. I love chocolate. I love I love water water dribbler

I love them all So no seriously everyone as we start this discussion,

I think it's so important I guess I here's how I'll start it one of the things that pains me a lot and I try not to even respond to it very much when

I see it because I don't want to even feed it and It's just like you feed it. You just stoke the flames. It's just how abusive

Christians can be towards one another Yeah, and it's across the board. Let's be honest It's across the board doesn't matter if you're

Arminian or if you're Calvinist I mean Christians can be very abusive and and if you want proof of that Just look through some of the comment sections on some of our videos

I mean, it's like that you could be doing the most Amazing praiseworthy you can have the most amazing praiseworthy thing and someone who professes the name of Christ We'll just come in there and just act like a jerk

Would you talk like that if they were sitting across from you? Yeah, and it's like wait I thought we all agree. This is a good thing. Why are we fight?

Why would you want to find an opportunity to fight here Christians can because we're sinners Tend to be abusive towards one another not thoughtful not loving.

And so I think it's really important because And you know, I will go ahead and confess readily confess in the

Reformed community The theology that we believe our soteriology our view of how a person receives the gift of God of salvation and God it should be the thing that drives us the most to humility and to our knees and the thing that humbles us the most and to be just uber gracious uber gracious to one another and But it you can see in the

Reformed community because there's such a dedication to You know rightly handling the

Word of God in such in such a strong way and that you don't want to lose that That's very important you need to be that way that we sort of like lose like godly wisdom about how to behave and how to be gracious as People come along to the truth, right?

Like you can see something that is so clearly true in the Word of God and you start swinging it like a bat like this How I'll convince people

I'll destroy them and it's like is that how you came to those truths? That's not how you can do those truths It wasn't because someone destroyed you with those truths is because they lovingly showed you and you work through it in the

Word of God And you saw it you go. Okay. Yeah, that's the truth. That's how God saves but in the Reformed community Admittedly, you can have people that act like punks and Are not gracious are not receiving of one another and in one thing that James has pointed out to and then

I'll Toss it over to you guys here as we enter into the discussion where we're gonna try to respond to what Toby said about smashmouth incrementalism

One thing you have to recognize is that church history is a glorious mess. It's glorious. Yes It's glorious because there are great moments peaks of faithfulness and commitment to God's truth and amazing things in history

But also it's a mess Even your greatest heroes in church history have said some of the most amazing

Powerful things that are consistent with Scripture and then on the next page they do an absolute face plant and you're like, oh gosh

So if you're looking for and again James says this a lot if you're looking for the person that looks just like you and that's how

Christians look and that's how they're supposed to be just like this You're gonna have a hard time finding yourself in church history

Because it's across the board. Yeah, it's a glorious mess. You have heroes again

They say amazing things and then they say some stupid things and you got to be gracious God sanctifying his church right and we need to love the brethren love those who hold to the same faith as us

So when you have something like Christ Church Doug and Toby and all our guys there, you know, we love them we work together like there we don't see them as anything other than our brothers in Christ and We're on the same ground before the cross

But we do dispute with one another over some issues and usually we do it with laughter The baptism discussion we might have that discussion over a meal

We'll engage it for five minutes and then smile and laugh hug each other and just move on Pastor James is debating

Doug Next month next month. Yes, I believe so next month in Moscow on the issue of pato communion.

They work together They love each other and they're still gonna debate these issues, but they're gonna do it as brothers Now there's serious issues they're important issues there are issues that impact the world and Impact your methodology, but they're not the issues that define the

Christian faith, right? Like you were not talking to somebody who denies the deity of Christ We're all together on that.

We're not talking about it that did not that denies that faith in Christ is what you know Justifies us and reconciles us we're talking to a brother that affirms all of that brothers that affirm all of that We have the same

God the same gospel the same scriptures the same commitments And but we still can't argue, but we can argue in a way that actually says let's be serious about it

Let's give our best stuff and then let's go and eat a sandwich You know, it's like let's let's go.

Let's go and serve the Lord together now, right? We'll have this dispute and then let's go serve God together. Let's go worship together.

I've worshipped we've worshipped at Christ Church At fight left feast a number of times

I've been to the actual church good as reform come Lord's Day all that no, it won't but clearly

Beside the point but that's beside the point like they've they've worshipped with us We worship with them and so it's very important as we engage the discussion.

I think I want to lay this down We're engaging this as brothers That said it's serious.

Mm -hmm. What we're gonna talk about is very serious now I've got blind spots and I look forward to the day that Toby points them out to me, right and I learned from that But I think

Toby and Doug have blind spots here some commitments that they've sort of had ahead of time

That are inconsistent and I think it's obvious they're inconsistent. And so let's talk about it I hope that Doug and Toby change their minds in this area because it's inconsistent and having them working

Consistently in this area in other words letting their reform theology their post -millennialism and their theonomy have legs on it would put them

I think in our camp because what really drives so much of what we do in the area of Abolition is our post -millennialism our reform theology and our theonomic perspective

They share that and so I think my goal here is to try to work together with our brothers to say hey

Here's some blind spots. Do you see him yet? Right but not standing above them saying look at your dirty blind spot

It's to say hey brother. You got a blind spot here. This doesn't work And having it work right is gonna blast the world.

So I think you put it well it's not a issue over propositional truth of in Scripture because like you said we hold to Virtually all of the same positions in all these different areas.

It's about the application of the truth to this particular issue Yeah, and a question of wisdom, which is what it's all about applying

Scripture for the day that we live in in terms of this Injustice. Yeah So I was just gonna say fun fact that the hands down the number one church or the church

I've done the most membership Transfers with this Christchurch, right back and forth either way.

We've sent people there. They sent people here hands down not even close So yeah, I mean we love I'm I'm sure

Toby's gonna listen to this I gave him a heads up that we're gonna be covering this and We I mean,

I've said this a lot. Toby's one of my favorite dudes He's one of my favorite preachers and so we love this guy a ton

I talked to Gabe twice this week and Gabe and I even had a conversation You know, we're like what's great is that we can have this conversation we can lovingly say, you know what

I disagree here and and not want to kill each other, you know, there's unfortunately, there's a lot of people who would who would fall into our camp on this subject who are just not nice people and Have been very

Awful towards Toby and yeah and across politic for their views on this and we don't want that We want to be able to demonstrate how we can have a healthy conversation

And just real quickly. I saw someone said that We're not willing to include LDS into the brotherhood

She says she's LDS Sorry, L but your Christ is not the

Christ in the Bible Lucifer's brother The spirit offspring of Elohim and one of his goddess wives is not the

Christ of the Bible if you don't have the true Christ you do will not have life and salvation You will never become a god one day because God says he's the first to last the beginning in the end

There's no God before him and none after him the idea that you can through your own obedience and cooperation with a resurrected

Man who became a god one day through obedience to different laws and principles of the gospel that you can become a god or goddess of your own planet one day is

Is false it is the height of evil and arrogance and human pride And I would encourage you to turn to Christ the true

Christ the eternal God in faith so Let's let can we start with this the the issue of that you just brought up pastor

Luke you brought up the issue of There are people who would call themselves abolitionists who misbehave and are abusive yeah, and We need to make sure that we're we're clear that What we're we're not trying to promote

Hey join our team this little group over here. We want you to put the title of abolitionist on your head

Yeah, we've said that for a while. That's the ultimate you can believe in an ideology of abolition or anything

Right without becoming a card -carrying member of that group, right? You don't need to we don't need to create a little group over here where you sign up and get a card to say

Are you officially this good to go now? We're now we're good No, it's it's the truths and the principles behind it that we're trying to promote and say these are biblical

We would just say it's sola scriptura applied to this issue yeah, and I think it's important because Let's let's just be honest because I am sure that our brothers over at Christ Church have been at times hurt offended

Agitated and I think unhealthy ungodly ways by by some in abusive behavior coming from I would hope that our boys over at cross -politic would understand that Accepting these truths that we're gonna present and these arguments

Doesn't mean now you become a card -carrying member with those guys who've been abusive to you, right? It's not about joining a team and can we all just be honest about this?

How many abusive and nasty Calvinists have you met? Right. Do we say that reform theology and Calvinism is not true because man, there's a group of them are just absolute thugs

If that were the case I wouldn't be a Calvinist or I wouldn't be reformed because I've met some online

Facebook coven enters that I would never want to even eat. I was just gonna say online in particular I would never want to even eat with and so but that isn't that doesn't change the fact that the

The truths that we're presenting here from Scripture in terms of like unequal weights and measures as an abomination before God That doesn't change and the abusive behavior of some or even the sinful behavior of some doesn't change what we're trying to point you to and that's very important to make sure we make a distinction between truth and an ideology and Particular people that hold to it card -carrying members of it

That's good One of the struggles that we had very early on in the last decade was that there were certain people we believed all this but there were certain people that were believing it too that were just nasty and abusive and Just terrible to others and they were separating from the church and they were creating their own little abolitionist churches and things like that and it was just and so destructive and We we didn't we didn't try to call it out publicly in terms of name people

We just said we're gonna distance ourselves and we're just gonna keep fighting faithfully and we're gonna keep holding to these truths And so we recognize that there have been some problems with people who call themselves abolitionists

There's a segment of people who have been let's be honest abusive. Now. I'm not I listen and this is key

When I say abusive I'm talking about character issues and behavior Mm -hmm.

I'm not saying that we don't ever say the hard truths to people even believers that are offensive, right?

Right, so that's key because someone's gonna hear this and say well, I I'm gonna tell the truth And I don't care how much it hurts someone's feelings

We go to the Mormon Temple and we preach the truth we tell people they have a false Christ and they're gonna be led away to hell and We do it in a way that is gracious and loving right and we try to do it in a way that is

Caring for them as an image bearer of God and winsome. Can I just say it this way simplest way I can put this Don't tell me that you truly value the image of God and that's why you're fighting because the image of God must be protected and valued

We must hold it up. We must protect the image of God we got to care for all human beings and be loving to them love our neighbors and then you do not treat the the image bearers of God who are walking around you with any love or grace or dignity or respect at all like I Respect the baby so much

And then I'm gonna fight for their for their lives and their souls, but every other image bearer of God is walking around here

I'm perfectly fine with cutting their throats Yeah It's an inconsistency, right if you love the babies because in principle

They're the image of God then you got to be more loving to the ones who are standing up around you as well So well, just one more thing.

I was gonna add is I was thinking about this What we're gonna We're gonna dissect what what

Toby said here and we obviously have some disagreements, but his position is not the problem

Cross -politic isn't the problem We're gonna get into what the problem is and what's allowing abortion to continue.

It's not them They are actually and Gabe brought this up to me the day it's an excellent point like they're very supportive of What we're doing and what abolitionists are doing they have it and we're gonna talk about that But like I mean he even said like he supports our rallies all the time

He support their they're supportive of the bills are doing they're not the problem. Yeah And we need people that are in our camp on this and need to stop treating them like they're the problem

So yeah, I think to your point what James says about you know The tongue from the same mouth come blessing and cursing, right?

My brothers these things ought not to be so does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water

Yeah, and so this is about you know The way that we speak to our brethren who are with us and hopefully trying to win them.

That's it We should be trying to win exactly right our brothers and sisters to the truth

Yeah, we should be trying to win pro -lifers to the truth Yeah, not make enemies out of them because I have found so many people who are quote -unquote pro -life

They're just Christians. They assume that the industry is trying to end it They assume they're calling it murder and you just need to spend some time with them instructing them and saying no you're missing this

They actually don't hold to Christian principles They are not committed Christians in this area and here's what they're actually doing and it just takes some time to try to convince them

And encourage them to see there's a more consistent way to do this through the local churches and to do it faithfully

Yeah, so let's win one another to the truth rather than just cutting each other's throats

Yeah You can still call out those who are trying to do this apart from Christ and taking the moniker of pro -life on them

You can say the hard things like you said, but you know for the one whom Christ died There should be an assumption there of right gentleness at least well and in the issue with Christchurch to say this as a lead -off

Doug Toby Chocolate Knox Gabe all those guys They all believe that it's the image of God.

They all believe that it's the image of God from conception. They believe it's murder They all believe that it's murder

They all believe that it ought to be abolished and end immediately as the first point of Toby's article, right?

and so the problem here is an inconsistency with methodology and approach and so that's what we're gonna deal with and so what we see in in our brothers is

Men who are in full agreement with us on all the foundational issues But there's an inconsistency and methodology and approach of how do we actually go about doing this?

And so what we're hoping is is our brothers will see that inconsistency and say yeah, you're right. Let's drop that and let's move forward

It's not a matter of winning Right. It's a matter of saying as believers Let's serve the Lord together and let's do this in a way that glorifies him and honors him and actually is effective

Not just pragmatic but actually is effective. So you guys ready to go? Let's do it.

Let's do it. So pastor Toby Did a video and it was called strategy to end abortion eight tenets of smash mouth

Incrementalism, this is pastor Toby and he is gonna spend some time talking about the position of smash mouth

Incrementalism. Here we go. I think until the next legislative session to bring a bill of complete abolition

How is that not incremental? Are you saying that it's okay to kill babies until then? Of course not

I Introduction this is not any kind of official document but rather an informal reply to a request from some for an

Explainer of the tenets of the smash mouth Incremental approach to ending abortion while the request was for tenets

Consider this more of a list of biblical principles defending the approach But it's a thinking out loud list

Certainly not meant to be complete exhaustive or necessarily representative of anyone other than me

Pastor Douglas Wilson coined the phrase to describe our approach to ending abortion here in Moscow at Christ Church and our related

Ministries, although it certainly is not a requirement for fellowship or membership. So here goes one

We call for the immediate end of all murder by abortion from conception on and Biblical justice for the unborn and we support all efforts to establish this moral judicial duty in the world.

Stop I'm guessing first a guess First half.

Yes, 100 % Amen. Thank you Here and the second half in here herein lies the issue and I know you're ready to go on this

The question is should we support Legislation if it is not just legislation, that's it.

And that is the the bottom line issue here go No, that's it.

Just put a bunch of steak in his mouth Like you said,

I mean We want all murder to stop murder by abortion and from conception.

They that's the biblical position It doesn't get any more biblical than that. The the question becomes

Which efforts do we support? Are they the ones that God explicitly says that he hates in his word?

Or are they a one the ones that he? approves of that's the issue and this is what

I would encourage pastor Toby to to think on brother just think on this I started this show off and Toby You you're well aware of all these verses

We hold to the same position on this completely in terms of the law of God and culture and society God's righteous

Standards his justice Established and his word his law his law word is is the is the reference point?

We go to to say what is actually just we know in God's Word that unequal weights and measures is an abomination to God I gave you in Proverbs chapter 20.

There's actually in one chapter two Verses in one chapter on the issue of unequal weights and measures.

That's the issue of partiality Partiality, so if anyone's just not getting into this conversation say, okay, what's the big deal?

Well, I want you to think about what pastor Toby just said we were in full agreement, it's murder

We need to end it immediately from conception from conception. So everyone here goes. Okay, we're all on the same team

We agree. We agree the same things but here's what you will hear from Toby and from Doug and and I'm not in any way

Impugning their character or trying to make fun of them, but I want you to hear this in terms of consistency

Here's Doug and Toby Smash mouth incrementalism. It's murder. It's the image of God.

God hates the hands that shed innocent blood It must be immediately stopped. It's a sin that will lead you to hell.

It must stop. It must stop now But I'm willing to compromise Yeah, that's that's that's their position, but I'm willing to compromise so This is this is partiality, it's unequal weights and measures.

It's an abomination to God, but I'm willing to compromise That's the issue.

Yeah, and you really need to let that hang because that is that you have Doug And Toby in promoting smash mouth incrementalism holding on to two things one the truth murder

Stop it immediately abomination before God, but I'm willing to compromise But I'm willing to compromise now, that's that's the main issue

Because I want to say that the issue here Toby. I Know you'll watch this

Toby when you think about this this particular issue of Incrementalism, I think there is a problem with definition going on here.

This is key we don't mean that we're opposed to incrementalism in terms of a

Small step in the realm we're in Getting us to justice established all over the world as Isaiah 42 promises, which is 0 .4

Right, we we we believe that of course you can only work with the step that's in front of you but what we say is this that increment the faithfulness and say the state of Arizona or the state of Louisiana or the state of Colorado that faithfulness must be a faithful increment

Not an unfaithful increment, right? So yes, it is technically an increment and we're not opposed to that to stop it in Louisiana, Louisiana, Louisiana.

Yes, that's an increment, but it's not going to be a compromised Increment, it will be a faithful Prophetic increment it will not be a compromised increment

So for example, what we're challenging with you Toby is this you and I would agree Toby 100 % as pastors

We know the Word of God. We know God's standards of justice God says here unequal weights and measures are an abomination to him

So as pastors, we can't put a stamp of approval on something that God says he hates

What I said in response to Doug Toby is I said very clearly if this legislation was brought before the throne of God Does God hate it?

And if it's partiality we know because the law word of God God hates it

He hates Legislation that says you can kill these babies, but not these babies

You can kill the babies who are pain capable or you can't kill the babies who are pain capable

But you can kill the ones who aren't the arbitrary standard you can kill the healthy babies, but not the babies of genetic abnormalities

That's partiality it's an abomination to God So no minister of the gospel should ever stand up before the public square and say it's murder

It's evil, but I'm willing to compromise and what's the compromise look like? Well, I know that bill is an abomination before God.

He hates it He will judge it on the last day Isaiah chapter 10.

He says woe to those a curse on those Condemnation upon those who write these iniquitous decrees, which is what it is making the fatherless pray

We can't say that's how God feels about it, but I'm willing to compromise Because the answers ought to be this what be prophetic

Be truthful be honest. Say no God hates that. This is an evil. It's an abomination.

God hates it Let's do what's right before God and yeah, you stop it first in Arizona. You stop it first in Oklahoma.

You stop it first in Louisiana Still didn't get it. You stop it and you stop it in Colorado.

And yeah, that's an increment. But here's the difference Toby It's not a unfaithful Increments, it's not an unfaithful one.

It's faithfulness the whole way through and I'm gonna pass this on to you guys But just think about this the issue of the gospel The issue of the gospel

Toby's gonna say here in a moment things about mustard seeds becoming trees and the gospel going forth small becoming large

This is all related to this. I'm gonna put this down at the beginning of this Yeah, the gospel goes into the world as a mustard seed so small

You can barely see it in your hand and becomes a tree larger than a man. That's true Amen, but the gospel goes forth into the world with a pure gospel a real seed not a compromised seed and Jesus with large crowds in front of him

He actually makes this the crowd disperse By actually saying if you're not willing to come to me and hate father mother sister brother wife and even your own life don't come to me, so Jesus didn't preach a

Compromised gospel message that starts as a seed that becomes a tree He had a pure gospel a faithful gospel and uncompromising gospel

That was a seed that made only a couple disciples that finally grew into a tree that we see all around the world today but it was never in a compromised increment a

Compromised seed so what we reject pastor Toby's we reject the idea That you should as a man of God as a

Christian as a woman of God You should actually accept something that is a compromised gospel or a

Compromised bill a bill that God says he hates that's the issue

So this this definition problem of increment well if you stop it here, that's still an increment no what we're against is

Compromised increments if you're gonna fight against abortion you better do it with justice that God loves

Justice that God speaks about you can't do it with compromised Justice which is really no justice at all

I think too it might be helpful to say this that sometimes we get bogged down in the discussion by this

Terminology and mediatist versus incrementalist when it's like, okay Well scripture doesn't use those words the categories that we have are is it just or unjust?

Like that's how we should be thinking about it So if it helps for the purposes of this discussion to just like take those terms for a second and put them over here

Like let's just put them over here off to the side and let's just boil it down to is it just or is it unjust?

Nobody denies the reality that there's going to be progress But we wholeheartedly affirm that God is the one that grants that progress as he sees fit to and yet he reveals in his word the

Duty that he required requires of us right the prescription. What is the prescription for how you enact justice?

This is it That's what you're responsible for God's responsible to take liberty and to do what he will and to grant the appropriate amount of progress that he is determined to grant

But there's still the issue of what has he said to us? How are we to be faithful and that's one point and I know the second point in your guys's conversation with him in Tennessee That was the question you asked.

Yeah. Well, wait a minute. Go back for a second Think about what you just said does God hate it or is it evil and I remember his answer

It was well if they know if they have knowledge about it, then they're accountable Well, that's a great argument for the prophetic witness of the church to the magistrates in the civil realm because they ought to know

They ought to be Being instructed in this area. They ought to be being told that in fact, this is a violation of God's Word Yeah, so I this is a great conversation just as far as what are what are actual righteous increments?

This is a conversation. We've been having a lot the last six months to a year or whatever because there are those in our camp that And I think that's why

Toby was saying this that would say there are no increments period and we're like well There has to be at some degree the question is is it a righteous increment right and so like You know the example

Toby uses Brother that's not really a That's apples and oranges almost because the way our nation's set up like obviously it is state -by -state

So you can't really use the state -by -state example to say like well, yeah, there's increments, you know

Yes, there are but that's that's almost a different Congress. It's really a different conversation than the kind of incrementalism, right?

Righteous increment. Yeah, exactly or even like because we've had this kind of an abominable. Yeah increment.

Yeah, exactly, right So like there's there's a lot of states That don't have the death penalty right, so we're saying like and in each state we're saying this abortion should be treated as murder like for the you know from conception and But in certain states if we were able to get a law passed in those states treating it as murder

They don't have the death penalty. That's not a just penalty for murder But it's a righteous increment, right?

That would be one that you it's righteous Yeah, so then the next increment would be okay Now, let's let's make the the penalty for murder just based upon right righteous standards is that witness and all the rest?

Yeah, yeah, but what but exactly you're keying in on the main the main issue because When you work to define what's in the womb and provide equal protection for all humans

That in itself isn't an abomination. You're instructing that state and the legislature

That's human. It must receive equal protection. You cannot have unequal weights and measures protect all humans from conception in this state

Yeah, you're exactly right you get on the tail end of that and you go man their justice system is flawed there

I mean, they're giving people like two years three years for murder You know, whatever the case may be or they're putting people on death row on like circumstantial evidence without like proper witnesses

That's a whole other area. Yes that needs to be dealt with with the prophetic witness of the church. Amen.

Amen. Amen But what you are dealing with in the area of the slaughter of the pre -born. Yeah that legislation you put forward

You cannot put forward legislation and give you a thumbs up to it as a minister as a Christian when that legislation is

Legislation that God hates because it's teaching the people something the law is a teacher

And so if the law is teaching people that this is acceptable when God says that it isn't

It we're gonna be held accountable for that Exactly, right the question to ask the premier question each and every time and this is what we do all the time

We're working in states and we're trying to get legislation put forward and be a prophetic witness to the church We're asking ourselves the question does

God hate this? Yeah, does he hate it? Yeah, because then and Unjust unrighteous increment would be just for example, like, you know

You can have an abortion up to 10 weeks or whatever Like those would be that would be an example of an unrighteous increment and in this and this is what

I want to challenge Toby on I did the same thing when we responded to Doug, but you know, there's the two main abominable sins in our nation are abortion and gay mirage

Right. So if there were if it was a law for for for gay marriage I can promise you they would not be responding the same way if there was a law that said well a man can marry a

Boy, you know 13 and up but not under that They would be saying no, that's not righteous.

That's not you know, and that would that would be I think that would be a An unrighteous increment that we could compare like they would not be responding the same way

So I don't understand why when it comes to abortion, they're they're treating it this way. You're right. No, exactly I think that Doug and Toby and all of our brothers and sisters at Christ Church would fight the battle in the area of gay

Mirage without compromise and with proper definitions So what we're arguing for is that as you fight against child sacrifice

You have to do it in the same way. You would fight against the evil of get mirage. You would do it without compromise and With proper definitions, right always and every time and we know that'd be true of our brothers over at Christ Church Well, we're halfway through one point here, yeah, we're rolling do it.

All right, Gabe, here we go oral Judicial duty in the world We condemn all efforts to stymie stonewall ignore or bury such legislative measures or judicial decisions especially by organizations that call themselves

Pro -life and lack the courage or principles to take decisive steps to end abortion

So that's that's important. Yeah That's important. I'm glad Toby says that because Toby you just indicted the entire pro -life establishment we're against those who would not have the courage to just do what's right and to end it immediately and This is where I see a conflict even in your thinking because the pro -life industry essentially is smash -mouth incrementalist

I know Doug created this terminology smash -mouth incrementalism smash -mouth incrementalist but it is a distinction without a difference because the smash the incrementalists of The pro -life establishment that are willing to accept these

Steps that are essentially partiality unequates and measures and all the rest

Those people still say what Doug and you are saying that we'll accept this will compromise will accept this increment

But we're gonna go for more later. We're not gonna give up. We won't be content. We're not content with it

So it's a distinction without a difference because I know Doug says smash -mouth and incrementalist But you know Scott Klusendorf says exactly the same things.

We'll accept this little step. That's an abomination We'll accept this injustice, but we're not done.

We're gonna keep going. We're gonna get our way So smash -mouth incrementalism is a creative way to put a title over Doug's position that essentially is a distinction without a difference

It's what the pro -life establishment does they say we'll accept that for now, but we're not done. We're not done We're gonna keep going. We're gonna keep pressing

And it's and Toby knows this and Toby would hate this he would hate this he would despise it He would preach against it.

It was the pro -life establishment that fights against our bills Consistently, it's the pro -life establishment that wars against our bills of equal protection

They do not want them passed because they see the mother as a victim herself. They don't want it to be called murder

They don't want to be a crime for the mother We were just in Denver speaking at a hearing the bill before ours was saying life at conception protect all human life

We're like yes, and then you read the rest of the bill and it said the only person responsible For killing the child is the abortionist and definitely not the mother

So those are bills that are evil unrighteous unequal weights and measures Toby would hate those too

But it's the pro -life establishment that is fighting against all of our bills for equal protection for all humans And again,

Toby would hate those. Yeah He would totally speak against it. Yeah, so one quick thing.

I think we talked about this briefly. I I think Brother Toby I think if you guys were more involved in a legislative end of things if you were involved in getting

Find a candidate in in Idaho and trying to put forth righteous legislation I I honestly think you would have a different perspective on this

I can tell you before we got involved You know before before we realize what was happening before we started in abortion now

We had a completely different view of things and then once we saw what was happening It it completely changed our minds because we're like oh no the what's happening is not what

I thought was happening Yeah, and and so like I mean you guys cross politic politics is in the name of your show

I know you talk about you talk about politics more than we do to be honest, but I think you guys aren't really

Actually involved in the legislative end of things and I think taking that next step. I promise will be very very eye -opening

So yes, here we go To we believe that all who hate wisdom love death and the natural man is enslaved to bloodshed and violence as his

Idolatrous sacrament and he will refuse to repent until God destroys him either through physical death and hell or through the death

And resurrection of Jesus Christ We believe that it is the mission of the church to proclaim the gospel to every creature in every nation

Calling them to complete repentance and submission to Christ and obedience to his laws in Scripture There you go.

Welcome to abolitionism pastor Toby. We would not depart from one iota of what you just said

Amen, and amen. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. Toby. What you just said we won't compromise

We're gonna tell the truth and tell people to obey God's law That's it. So if you guys hear pastor

Toby you see what a faithful man Toby's not he's not placating. He believes this

Toby's powerful man of God. He's preached one of the best sermons I've ever heard in my life to be honest with you. Well, it was he's coming to reform con

Yeah, and he's speaking on justice. Yeah, that's how we that's how we feel about Toby Okay, so his standard and knowledge of biblical justice is on point.

So I'll just apply it to abortion, right? So Toby I'm looking forward to your sermon on justice at the at the conference

At reform con Toby believes this he fights for this he fights for the souls of his people with this message across the board.

He's faithful But again Toby I would just challenge you with this think about this brother you say here no compromise

Full -throated gospel. We don't stop until everyone repents and they go into obedience to God's law, right?

That's the position and then because of your methodology you've picked up with smash mouth smash smash mouth smash smash mouth incremental ism you say

But I'm willing to compromise Right. It's got to be the gospel and only the gospel. It's God's standards.

It's God's justice We're not stopping until everyone hears the gospel pure God's justice

God's law obedience to that but I'm willing to compromise. Yeah, we got to get there somehow That's the position it is but I'm willing to compromise

We're not talking about an increment Right. We're talking about the issue of compromise because you can have of course the state of Arizona bringing equal protection and abolishing abortion

And yeah, that's an increment test technically, but it's an uncompromising Increment it's a faithful increment.

It's actually justice. It's not injustice So there's the difference is that what we're saying is that you have a position and a standard here that is glorious and amazing

And we know you believe it but because of a methodology you've adopted you then go but I'm willing to compromise

Not justice not Christ not the gospel because we need to make our way there, but that's not the goal

The goal is faithful seeds, right again. My Challenge is this?

Yeah, the gospel comes forth as a seed that becomes a tree. It's like leaven in a lump of dough But it's it's real leaven and it's a real seed, right?

It's not a fake seed and fake leaven. It's real That's what changes the world. It's not faithless leaven or a faithless seed

It has to be the real thing and I know Toby would agree with that. So that's the issue Oh Legislation or judicial ruling will end abortion

But Christ will end abortion through the gospel and it will be reflected in the laws of the land over time

And you can't do that through compromise Christ will end abortion

Through the gospel, right? That's what's gonna transform the world Christ his gospel the message of the truth.

So you can't get there with compromise You can't get there by saying

Okay, just half Right, like Jesus doesn't say to the crowds like when he says, you know, hate father mother sister brother wife, even your own life

You know carry the cross come to me when they start walking away. He doesn't go. Okay. Okay half How about some right he doesn't do that it's without compromise it's just the truth

That's how the world changes and yeah That looks like a little seed with only a couple disciples left But it ends up changing the world because they know the message they say where are we gonna go?

You have the words of eternal life. They knew the truth So Jesus doesn't compromise when he's giving the truth and we can't in this area of abortion.

Yep. Do you have something to say? That's it go free We believe that the gospel works through the world like leaven in a loaf like a mustard seed slowly growing

Likewise while every regenerate person is fully justified at conversion sanctification is the process by which

Christ conforms people to his glorious image and incremental process only completed at the resurrection in Glorification while all known sin must be put to death as quickly as possible

God does not convict everyone of every sin equally or immediately

This is especially true of widespread cultural sins For example polygamy divorce and slavery while God hates the shedding of innocent

But when he does deal with sin in our lives or in the world He does it truthfully, yeah without compromise and Faithfully Toby's right in the issue of sanctification.

By the way, I think he's he's he's he's mixing categories here One the issue of the sanctification of believers sanctification church and the issue of justice in the legislature.

He's he's mixing categories here Yeah, it's true when God sanctifies believers. Praise you.

Praise you Lord. He doesn't do it all at once, right? We'd literally come apart at the seams and we'd turn into dust

And God is gracious and it's step -by -step. But guess what God never compromises in our sanctification Does he like does he does

God say half right some? God calls us to obedience. And so when we're being challenged and grown in our sanctification before God What is

God never doing ever with his word in our lives by a spirit never compromising with us, right?

He's never not telling the truth to us it's always with the truth Sanctification occurs because it occurs by the

Spirit of God with his truth not compromise and again You're mixing categories here because when we look at the world itself and the injustices

The role of the church is to be salt and light to it You can't be salt and light to a world that's headlong into hell by lying to them about their sin

We can't come into the world placating. Oh, well, maybe half just a little bit you're murdering children

We need to call it what it is, and we can't say you're murdering children. It needs to stop immediately

You need to honor and obey Jesus Christ, and then they say okay. Well, how about I kill some of the kids? Okay, I guess so No, we we come into the world with the same kind of prophetic witness as all the biblical heroes

And I want to remind everybody that when the church comes in and Toby did an excellent talk on this by the way When the church comes in to the world and public square in the book of Acts, it is conflict conflict conflict conflict conflict

It is fight fight fight fight fight. It is riot riot riot burning breaking Beating jail all that why because they're preaching the truth

They're not doing with compromise They're preaching the truth. God commands men everywhere to repent.

They just tell the truth so what we're saying here is it's not so much a difference between like incrementalism and Immediatism because I think there's some problems with definitions there in terms of what

Toby is hearing. It's a question of faithfulness Yeah without compromise truth without compromise and Toby is an amazing man of God.

He believes in that Faithfulness no compromise, but Toby and Doug you both have adopted a position a methodology in this area

That is not consistent. Maybe you've held to it for a long time. That's just sort of been what you've held on to It's just not consistent.

And I think you you know that because I think here's how you answer it again this is the main issue if This legislation if you were to examine it as a minister of the gospel in light of God's justice and his law word

Does God hate it? Does he call it an abomination and if the answer is yeah, he hates that and he calls it an abomination

Then why are we supposed to support that if it's Christless and unjust?

What role do we have as the church to support something like that that's Christless and unjust

Isn't the role of the church to win every man to Christ? Through the proclamation of the gospel and to point him to God's law word.

Isn't that what Toby just said? That's what he said. So that's the goal. I just thought of something and I think this is super powerful

So Toby one of my favorite sermons of yours. I assigned to people all the time as homework

It's on victimhood One of your I quote you all the time You can ask anyone here how much

I use this quote but the quote basically is as Christians we should reject all invitations to victimhood because We have the perfect victim and we're never truly innocent.

I use that all the time in counseling all these bills that Are stopping our bills.

They're stopping full abolition. All these compromised bills are straight victimhood bills

Hmm, right. Why is it because of the mother because she's a victim she's claiming so it so Toby brother here minutes

So when you're saying we should support this bill Because you know it's this bill is being put in a place because people are saying that the mother is a victim and we are then as Christians accepting an invitation to victimhood blood

Especially of children and his prophets certainly condemned it the center of their message was a gospel message of repentance

That would have resulted in gradual reformation in the land for while God's just through Just quickly where I said it a lot of times, but say it again through real repentance genuine repentance not

Fictitious repentance real repentance that occurs because truth uncompromising truth this is

Unchanging the implementation of his justice will always be imperfect in this world

And our goal must be gradual conformity to God's eternal standards. We find examples of this gradual conformity

Okay, pause gradual conformity to what God's eternal standards

We don't get to gradual conformity to God's eternal standards by compromising on God's eternal standards

That's very important yes, gradual conformity happens because It's like a must it's like a mustard seed that becomes a tree

So it moves its way into the world, but its goal is God's eternal standards So the only way it gets to that place is by proclaiming what

God's eternal standards and one of God's eternal standards is Unequal weights and measures are an abomination.

So you don't get the world to believe in God's eternal standards By not proclaiming

God's eternal standards or compromising on God's eternal standards very important In the fact that God did not immediately put

Cain to death after he murdered his brother He did not immediately prohibit blood avengers for me.

But what does he call it? murder That's the key issue

He never he never Misdefines it right redefines it, right?

he never compromises on what he condemns people for in all these instances Toby's gonna talk about whether it's homosexuality whether it's

You know the Avenger blood what what a polygamy all the rest God still always tells the truth about it

He's not compromising on what he calls it and how he's he's warring against it in his people and all the rest

And so it's very important here when we talk about instances where there's graciousness or mercy given by God It's graciousness and mercy given by God without Lying about what it is.

Yeah without compromising on his condemnation of it And that's what's being missed here.

Yes. Scripture is full of examples of God being merciful to David King David God be merciful to Moses God be merciful in so many instances whether it's exiling or whatever the case may be

But God never misdefines or redefines what the issue is. He's never compromising on the word itself even in the area of polygamy

Even in the area of polygamy God has a word specifically to his people Deuteronomy 17 17

You shall not multiply wives, right? It's always God always not compromising on the truth of what's actually wrong here

So if you know, that's the case, I know the eternal law word of God I know what the world needs to get to again, you don't get people to that place by not telling him what that eternal word actually is and if you have something in front of you that actually violates that eternal word like a

Heartbeat bill or a bill that says yeah kill the healthy kids But not the kids with Down syndrome if that's what's in front of you

You can't compromise why because that violates the eternal word of God. That's not his law word that's unjust and so I can't accept that why because I'll never get the world to repent and believe in Christ and to establish his justice by Establishing injustice and accepting it.

I think that's a great point I was just thinking like this some that sum up what you just said God Objectively choosing to show grace to people to men in history

Does not change his objective standard for what is just and what is unjust, right?

And it's not an endorsement for us to support the things that he's condemning right he was gracious and merciful before so let's

Compromise now and you know that isn't that doesn't follow pastor Toby and slaughter. He did not immediately prohibit polygamy

He did not immediately or fully prohibit slavery Nor did he completely prohibit sinful divorce and scripture praises

Kings who used methods of suppression for sodomy For example exile instead of the death penalty prescribed in the law five while obedient and It's important to note that yeah in scripture

You have the example of capital punishment for sexual crime like homosexuality. You also have the issue of exile in scripture

Both I think are good ways to handle the issue But there's also other issues new to need to be discussed in the issue of exile versus capital punishment

And very clearly you need to have two to three witnesses To bring charges against a person for a sexual crime.

So at times maybe there are instances I think roundabout us where you could have exile being the the gracious way of dealing with the sin of homosexuality when you don't also have the the witness necessary for Homosexuality, that's one that's one way to deal with it

So there's a way in a Christian society and culture where you could simply say it's it's illegal here It's wrong here And if there's an instance where it's clear someone is in that area you could say exile it might be what

I would guess too is how he would you know respond to this would be that you know during the times of the monarchy that was a provisional

Commonwealth in which there was a constitution written for the kingdom and so you know the thing about Kings being praised

For doing this, you know that line of argumentation I think it might be a little precarious though Like to like look at a narrative description of what the king did or what you know whether it's

Josiah Jehoshaphat, you know in those passages that he would cite and then like look at that as the basis of what our

Political ethics should be or our course of action now, like this is what the king did You know whether or not he banished them or as some have written in response to this

Like this is actually referring to like he more than likely burned them He more than likely did execute them, right?

This is an issue of definitions in the text, too So right it's just kind of striking to I mean

It's kind of precarious is what it strikes me as to use this narrative like this as the prescription

Right for what we do in the legal realm. That's what yeah, that's a good point To God is immediate complete and joyful Jesus teaches that the son who said no, but then later obeyed his father is better than the son who said yes

And then never actually obeyed in other words. Jesus taught that obedience is sometimes slow

Incomplete and halting but partial obedience is to be preferred to accomplishing nothing at all the same but in Terms of the role that we have in calling people to obedience

We can't compromise on what that obedience is supposed to be That's the issue this this is what is right before God this is honoring to God This is consistent with his law word and his character

And so what we can't do as Christians is begin fighting for things that aren't actually obedience

That's the key issue. This is an abomination. This is compromise. This is evil. This is an iniquitous decree

We can't fight as Christians with those things in our hands They're weapons that don't work.

You know, one thing you'll hear Doug and Toby saying a lot is run every play

Run every play. First of all, I don't play football never have you have I think the coach that tells the people run every play

Is probably a bad coach because some of the plays aren't any good. Yeah, right and so I think that needs to be acknowledged while it might be a

Interesting way to put this just run every play try to do that I think it's important for us to note, but not every play is actually effective.

It's not actually good You don't just run every play because some of them are actually really bad And I even in my own realm

I'm like, I'm not a football player Luke was in martial arts if you had a coach saying just just try everything I'm like, that's not how this works.

You can't just try everything right like they won't work with this guy You have to you have to use the effective strategy the thing that will actually work against this opponent's like Imagine going to war like that like your general like everything's hot and difficult and then they go to general.

What do we do? He goes run every play Just throw everything out of him. It's like it's like I'd probably want the general that was like no, this is the way to beat them and III know we're poking fun at it here, too

But it kind of carries with it the assumption that the game that we're playing Right because they would say you guys throw the

Hail Mary Awesome. We'll take the one yard gain, you know from this strategy But it's like that what

I think what we have to understand is one side is following More often than not the referees and not the rules of the game and by referees

I mean Supreme Court justices and so one side is saying oh, is this okay to do?

Can we do this Supreme Court? Are you okay with this? Okay, great As opposed to you know

Getting down the field in a way that honors God and actually playing by the rules when what I mean by rules are

God's law, of course, but the Constitution, right? So what our nation

Says about this is the law is the ultimate standard So are we going by the rules? Are we going by the referees because if we're going by the referees and we try to go down the field with these compromised

Steps then we're playing by Their rules, they're the law and so they say no actually you have to go back and start at this end of the field

Because that's not satisfactory for us, right as opposed to us playing by the rules and saying no

You're defying the rules of our nation and it's you that needs to do an about -face, right, right

Yeah, I was just gonna say too quickly. I like Toby you're You're teaching on parenting has been very challenging

To my my family my wife and I and I know you say it's all time first or a full obedience first time right and Going off a little heart.

Yeah, it's all the way and on top. Yeah, well we just mentioned though as well, you know, sometimes You know

Partial obedience is okay like brother. You wouldn't tell your kids that like I know you wouldn't know that's the point here

This is a loving challenge to our brother. You did that you just nailed it. This is I think the key thing I hope he hears And I know he'll receive it with humility

We want the Toby That preaches on Sunday morning. We want we want love that.

I love that Toby I want the Toby who writes and teaches and does so with so much consistency and so much conviction and so much power

Right. I want that Toby that preaches on God's standards and God's justice. I Want the

Christ Church and Canon Press that sells Lex Rex? right and defiance to tyranny

I Want those guys to fight like that was actually true

I'm not saying you guys don't believe it and you don't do it everywhere else But in this area the issue of abortion you've adopted something else because because if you listen to Toby with the family if you listen to him with the state and Everywhere else.

I think you'll be an abolitionist So I think it's it's more it's more in the category of I think you've been carrying some baggage and methodology

That isn't fitting with everything else that you're saying now again Let's not be arrogant here.

I know I've got that in my life. Sure. I Mean everyone does all of us have traditions

We're packing along with us that we're gonna find out this wasn't consistent with Scripture. You should have been something doing something different That's against what you actually believe

They're there and I think they're here with Toby and Doug and the reason why we're talking about it is

Because let's be honest and Toby and Doug agree with this lives are at stake. Yeah, that's why yeah lives are at stake

Maybe to end that point there Full agreement that partial obedience is better than no obedience.

It's just that is it partial obedience to something just or unjust? Or if it because partial obedience to something just is better than full obedience to something that God says he hates

That's called the internal critique Well done. Very important is true of the necessity of ending abortion six

We reject the notion that any incremental bill that stops short of complete abolition

Means that its supporters are permitting any abortion before and within the limited parameters

For example, and then you can kill the baby any more than God's law limiting polygamy

Was God granting permission to a man to take a second wife? Exodus 21 10 7 since we cannot let's talk about that because that goes back.

Yeah, this is really important Yeah, that's let's this this is this is key. I'll let you go first. I was just gonna say let me give an example

So this is the most recent bill that was passed here in Arizona In place of something like our bill an equal protection bill, and here's the very first provision number one

This bill prohibits a physician except in a medical emergency from intentionally or knowingly

Performing inducing or attempting to perform or induce an abortion if the probable gestational age of the unborn human being has been determined To be greater than 15 weeks

So that's a benchmark 15 weeks if you have reached that stage of development The law will protect you.

So If you have on the one hand someone saying no, we reject that our support of bills like this

Show partiality and throw all the children that are under 15 weeks under the bus so to speak

That's what the bill says Like it says it in the bill, right Yeah, we have to like deduce what it's saying here if they're younger than 15 weeks

You can kill them, right? That's the deduction. That's the point Toby. You have to accept that that's you know, there's there's there's one one area

I want to address here and agree with you and another I think where you you completely, you know

Fall on this point is that that's what these bills say Zach's bring a good point in Arizona the pro -life establishment fought against our bill for equal protection that would have protected all children

Right, they put theirs in and their bills are like Just it's a moot point.

You cannot kill a child for the express Reason of genetic abnormality.

I always harp on this one because what does that mean? You can kill If you don't want it, you can kill the other children

But you can't do it because of genetic abnormality That's what the bill says Right. That's what the bill says and so you have to sort of embrace that You know if you're if you're going to if you're gonna put your stamp of approval on a bill

That says you can kill these children, but not these children I mean you have to accept the fact that you are

Giving an admission that okay. I accept the fact that you're gonna kill these ones, but not these ones It's unavoidable it is unavoidable when you look at the terminology

But I think what's important here is maybe what Toby is more aiming at because I want to try to always Always assume innocence and always think the best of somebody and try to make sure you're hearing them

This issue of Incremental step again. There's some some definitional problems here, but Luke brought it up at the beginning

The issue of is it a righteous increment or an unrighteous increment? That's the key issue.

Is it a righteous increment or is it unrighteous because you're you're right This world is filled with injustice and evils that go down the line like Luke said you can provide equal protection for all humans in the state from conception and then go yay victory now

We have the right definition now every human is protected, but then someone violates that and then you go Oh shoot this law standards for witnesses and evidence and their standards in terms of what is actually a just penalty is totally off I mean, what was that Harvey bill in Texas like $10 ,000 fine or something and it was civil and given

This bill it would classify it as a class 6 felony. That's the least severe

Felony category that we have to offer in Arizona. So what are we saying in teaching about the unborn?

We're saying that they're not as important to protect as people that are born Why because we made it a class 6 felony as opposed to something more severe, right?

We're not saying that they're equal before the law right and in the eyes of God by what we write, right?

exactly I'll leave it there snap our fingers and end all abortion in every land immediately all

Efforts to end abortion must be incremental in time and space if you're waiting until the next legislative session to bring a bill of complete

Abolition, how is that not incremental? Are you saying that it's okay to kill babies until then?

Of course not if you're old He's right. Yeah, right. And that's what we kind of talked about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's that's the issue again

There's a problem definition there And you know the problem is also Toby might have had just himself reamed by tons of people in comments who were just abusive and haven't thought this through themselves

They can't think with categories either right, you know Christians have a problem with that Well, the whole world has a problem with that thinking in categories and so there may be people that have just sort of like idolized the movement of abolition and they go incrementalist and Immediatist and put it into the pro -life movement and it's like they got the t -shirts and they've gotten they've got the wrist

Bands and all all the rest and so like this is my team This is my thing and they're not thinking in terms of like category of like Toby's, right?

There is gonna be a step here or there but Toby's got some problems with definitions there

The issue is again, is it a righteous increment or is it an unrighteous increment?

Yeah, it's gonna start in Florida, right? I get it. Yeah, and that's an increment. That's not the whole world all at once But when it happens in Florida Pray pray to the

Lord through the work that we're doing through all of the churches are working with and establishing justice It won't be with a bill that God hates man

Maybe just one more thing about this too because usually the justification comes up There's like, you know something like this passes if this bill passes.

Well, it's saving some lives Like that's kind of the defense of it It's saving lives, but I think this has to be said that in that situation what's going on there is what we're highlighting in that kind of scenario is

God's mercy and Grace in the midst of our faith unfaithfulness and disobedience like it's not a it's not a

You know a pat on the back for us. It's God being gracious and allowing those lives to be saved

Contrary to what he he says that he endorses Prescriptively, right if that makes sense

He bringing a bill in Oklahoma and not the whole world Are you saying that it is okay to kill babies in Massachusetts or India?

of course not in the same way small steps toward ending abortion like heartbeat bills and ultrasound bills or Parental permissions need not be seen in any way as either permitting or regulating murder

But they are That they are Toby they are

Toby there's no way out of that brother. They are they are permitting and they are regulating

Specifically, they're called regulatory bills. They are permitting and they are regulating murder

Toby agrees that it's murder Toby agrees Immediately and he says but these bills that regulate it and permit it shouldn't be seen as regulating it and permitting it

Why not? I hate to go back to the example of our recent bill here the awful one

But the abortionist has to fill out a report The date the abortion was performed the method that the abortion was used the probable gestational age of the human being in the womb and the method used to detect it a

Statement that the abortion was necessary because of a medical emergency. What are all of these if not regulations?

Right. What are they? What was it like I think it was like three years ago maybe when we were starting when we first met in in Texas at Bradley's remember the bill that Arizona had just passed

It was like this was like the big win for the Republicans was they put a bill in the place that said if you're going

To have an abortion you have to sit say why you're having the right you have to report the reason brother

That's about that's regulating murder. You can murder your baby as long as you tell us why you're doing

Yeah There's so many places There's there's part of me that also wants to try to say

Can we all just like think about whether or not we would act like this and say these things?

In another area of injustice like say sex trafficking, yeah, I said this a lot

It's weird, right? Like all of us are indoctrinated by our culture were affected by our culture whether we fight against it didn't want to admit it or not

We're all in some way affected like we're dumbed down Like for example, I caught myself the other day walking through the mall my daughter was going to try to find a phone because mine's broken and Seeing all these gay couples holding hands walking around and I caught myself after seeing about two or three of them

Wait a second Why did I just? Why did I just act like that was normal like yeah

Yeah, right like if in the in the 80s when I grew up we talked a lot about the 80s

It doesn't appall us anymore have right people were shocked by it even in the 80s in the 90s I had friends in high school, of course that were definitely definitely homosexual, but they wouldn't come out and say it

They wouldn't certainly hold hands in the hallway and those sorts of things Because of how it would have shocked people and I caught myself like we're so we're so affected by it

My point is is that we all get dumbed down and what I mean here in a comparison is very simply this

What if you heard pastors talking this way about ending sex trafficking with this kind of weak needness?

That's a word right weak needness. I like this now Because it is it's weak knees.

It's compromise and weak knees and I let's be honest We wouldn't talk this way about sex trafficking. Why because everybody in the world hates sex trafficking

Yeah, except for the ones that are doing it, but all the communities all cultures is disgusting. It's evil.

It's an abomination You had a fight against it who could take down everyone involved and give them that you prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law

That's an easy realm to fight in because everybody's on your team And so if you had a place where sex trafficking was actually legal and permitted and people were trying to fight against it

They were like, okay. Well you can You know, there's not much we can do by this now, you know, it's a big industry here.

So let's just say you can't sex traffic the girls under 11 but everybody above You really think it's a pastor that you would say?

Okay. I'm not gonna stop there I'm gonna be smash mouth about this and I'll get to it later, but I'll accept that for now

No, I think we'd all be full -throated totally opposed Warring against it with the eternal law word of God and without acceptance to any degree

Or how about someone says, you know, you can sex traffic but not the kids with Down syndrome.

How about that? We would say what are you talking about? Are you out of your minds? No, this is sin.

It's an abomination. It's evil Let's take down everybody involved. Let's give him this prosecute him to the fullest extent of the law

I think the reason that we talk about smash mouth incrementalism like this is because we've been so affected

By the culture itself and their acceptance of this and let's be honest the pro -life

Establishment working on us as pastors. This is acceptable. We're gonna do it this way we can do it this way

We'll just take a little bit. We'll compromise a little bit. Let's be honest. That's affected all of us. It's worn down pastors

It's worn down establishments. It's worn down organization. So everyone just goes I guess that's the way we're doing this

Well, how about we get some hardcore solid pipe heat hitting Presbyterian covenanters that will act like the

Presbyterian covenanters in Scotland on The area of abortion. How about that?

Yeah, and they won't approach ethics in a situational fashion Like let's let in Arizona there.

Here's what we can get but we're in California. We can't get that here so now we have to Give a little bit more here just to get more and back as we're in a liberal state, right?

That's not God's approach to ethics Rather as limiting and suppressing murder while discipling the nation's the corruption of some pro -life groups who?

Champion these sorts of bills as quote major victories need not curb our enthusiasm for running the next play eight the body of Christ I'll just say last of that can't and we've already said it a lot say it again

You can't run a play that God hates. Yeah, can't you can't run a play that God says is an abomination

You can't make a case for that either I mean as a Christian as a pastor as a minister the gospel You can't make a case for run the play that God says is an abomination.

There's no way out of that You can't you can't do that That's why we reject it is diverse and not every good work is the duty of every member of the body

While we affirm that the murder of the unborn is a heinous sin and crime that some

Christians must give Themselves to ending the preaching of the gospel in local churches

Missions and evangelism and mercy ministries as well as the building of cultures of life through families schools and businesses

Are also essential parts of calling the world to repentance and obedience to Christ Christians who give themselves to building faithful Christian communities where children are welcomed and cared for are as much part of ending

Abortion as those brothers preaching outside of abortion mills and those calling legislators to end abortion and therefore

We must not despise one another for building and fighting on different parts of the wall of the kingdom

Preach that pastor. He is right Toby. You're right, right, right? You said it better honestly than I think

I ever have You are right, and I think that anybody who is in the abolitionist community

That heard that Needs it needs to take it in Yeah because let's just be honest and I'll just speak to it because I call myself an abolitionist in terms of my

Methodology of trying to pursue and end this I'm not a card -carrying person. I'm not part. I'm part of a little group

I'm that's what I believe you must abolish it and do it through the work of the church and the gospel all that you know,

I Can't tell you how many people's lives have seen come apart and be destroyed because they see that as this is the only thing

It's the only thing and if you're not doing this, you're not faithful to God right if you're not doing this you're engaged in the same idolatry as the rest of the culture and if you're not doing this if you're

Not out there if you're not doing this, it's like wait, wait, wait This is a kingdom and it has people within a body that all have different gifts

Right, and they're all called many times to different things And so yeah, the person who is not going to the abortion mill every single day or out with us at the legislature

That's actually like building an orphanage Like their their work is just as valuable right this isn't the only thing and I will

I will say what Toby said there was excellent and I want to say that within this movement people need to be aware of the

Idolatry that can set in where this becomes the only thing All of every morning every night.

It's the only thing you can think about. It's the only thing you can talk about It's the only thing you ever speak about You you you you almost push away everybody in your life in terms of relational

Intimacy with all these other people in your life because the only thing that matters at all is this issue of abolition, right?

the law the pastor Toby's right the local church matters the preaching of the gospel matters discipleship matters and you know

You can do discipleship and gospel proclamation and a local church without mentioning abortion

You know you can it's possible Abortion exists in our land. We must fight it as a grave injustice and evil

But it is not the only injustice and for people to chastise other believers

For not being fully involved in this area with and treating it as the ultimate only thing

There's a problem there because there are some Christians God's calling to stop sex trafficking and they don't have the time or the energy to fight in the area of Abolition and guess what?

They're faithful to God, too Yeah, and they don't have to look like you and do what you're doing But the point is is as a

Christian Church, we should all be saying the same thing about this thing We should all be willing to testify against it and be prophetic against it, of course

And yeah, not everyone's called to go to the abortion mill. Not even everyone has the opportunity

That's one thing Gabe said to me the day He's like he's like I love I love these guys that are going to the abortion was like I don't have one anywhere near me

Praise God for that. I would love it if we didn't have anybody, you know But so not everyone even has the ability to go to the abortion mill, you know

But but like you just said that doesn't mean that we don't fight it in other ways that we are able to yeah there are various manifestations of our nation's religious apostasy and that's why there's

One body in many parts because there's people uniquely equipped to deal with every area.

That's right All right need the church we went a long time today, that's right pastor Toby. We love you.

Love you, brother Maybe we'll have you on maybe we'll do a public moderated debate

Maybe we'll got 20 22. Maybe that could happen. Oh, by the way, speaking of reform gun. I wanted to answer a question

Somebody asked about discounted rates and I asked while we were on the show If you go to the website, there's the location and lodging

There is a referral link under there and you get a discounted rate for the rooms.

It's 150 instead of 220 That's very good. You see we even take care of you with that it even costs we even got you hookups on the room rates

Themselves, you can even stay at the location. You don't have to go somewhere else driving like forever

I mean wasn't there a conference once one time when like it was like it was it was sort of like a farm place

It was like cattle arena or something and there was something about this conference I remember and there was like nowhere to eat nearby

There's like out in the boonies and like no one had like any choices of places to go eat You had to drive a long time to get to a place

I seem to remember that in the restroom. There was a place to play putt -putt. Well, people are being yeah

Yeah, I remember what I read. Yeah restaurant that we went to and it's just it is a foul odor

There was some weird floating even Doug Wilson There was like floating thing even Doug Wilson made a comment about how foul it smelled in there.

It's like weird I think we're working against any kind of foul smells. No false. We're gonna work against that Yeah, and ours is cheaper though, right?

It's cheaper. It is cheaper It is cheaper and we're gonna have more going on, but we love our boys of our cross politic

I'm sure we'll have more conversation on this. It's a continuing conversation. It's an important one again

Maybe we'll have a discussion with Toby face -to -face. Maybe we'll do a public moderated debate if he's open to it

How you like that smash mouth incrementalism versus abolition which is biblical can we call it smash burger incrementalism

What did you say earlier from earth? Luke the bear peace out con over later