December 16, 2016 Show with Ryan McGraw on “Knowing the Trinity: Practical Thought for Daily Life” AND “Christ’s Glory, Your Good: Salvation Planned, Promised, Accomplished & Applied”

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December 17, 2016

Ryan McGraw, pastor of First Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Sunnyvale, California, author of The Day of Worship: Reassessing the Christian Life in Light of the Sabbath, & By Good and Necessary Consequence, will discuss: “KNOWING THE TRINITY: Practical Thought for Daily Life” *AND* “CHRIST’s GLORY, YOUR GOOD: Salvation Planned, Promised, Accomplished & Applied!”

00:02: Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown
00:08: Carlisle, Pennsylvania it's iron sharpens iron a radio platform on which pastors
00:16: Christian scholars and theologians Address the burning issues facing the church and the world today
00:23: Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another
00:31: Matthew Henry said that in this passage quote we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and Directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour
00:50: And we hope to hear from you the listener with your own questions
00:56: Now here's our host Chris Arnton Good afternoon,
01:05: Cumberland County, Pennsylvania And the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming
01:12: This is Chris Arntz and your host of iron sharpens iron wishing you all a happy Friday on this 15th day of December 2016 before I introduce
01:24: My guest in our topic today. I Want to remind you of the exciting news that iron sharpens iron is conducting our theological debate coming up on January 13th, that's
01:39: Friday the 13th and That's going to be at 7 p .m. At the historic Carlisle theater a gorgeous 900 seat theater that dates back to the early 20th century that has been beautifully restored and they have been
01:58: Gracious enough and open -minded enough to allow us to have a theological debate on that site, which is very
02:07: Politically incorrect for our day and age sadly, but they are very much eager to help us promote this event and To be the hosts of it
02:18: That is Friday January 13th at 7 p .m.
02:25: Eastern Time and that's going to be between Roman Catholic apologist
02:31: Robert Syngenis the founder of Catholic apologetics International and also, dr
02:37: Tony Costa who is the professor of apologetics at Toronto Baptist Seminary their theme is going to be
02:46: Mary Sinless Queen of Heaven or sinner saved by grace Tickets are $5 .00.
02:53: If you'd like to attend this event email me at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
02:59: chris ar n z e n at gmail .com The same email you use when you submit questions to our guests during the program
03:10: Just make the exception here by putting in the subject line Tickets for debate also for all you men in ministry listening or for all of you who know men in ministry and I hope that most of you or I hope that all of you have pastors and The iron sharpens iron pastors luncheon is
03:34: Coming up the day before the debate The luncheon is Thursday, January 12th 11 a .m.
03:41: To 3 p .m. At the historic Carlisle vault which is as its name would suggest a
03:48: Historic bank that dates back to the early 20th century and it has been transformed into a gorgeous catering hall
03:54: They are providing those facilities for us free of charge Except that we have to pay for the cleaning crew afterwards, which is a godsend and we thank
04:05: The new owners of the Carlisle vault for being so gracious to us This is for men in the ministry.
04:11: Dr. Tony Costa who I mentioned earlier Who is the Protestant debater in the upcoming debate?
04:17: He is going to be our guest speaker each man that goes to this luncheon is going to leave with a canvas sack of books probably 30 or 40 free brand new books
04:30: Donated by major Christian publishers all over the United States and the United Kingdom So you're going to be each man is going to be leaving there with hundreds of dollars of free books
04:41: This is all absolutely free of charge and we are going to all have a sumptuous gourmet meal provided by a chef exclusive a new catering establishment here in Carlisle so if you'd like to attend that or you know, somebody who would like to attend that and We apologize.
05:03: We cannot accommodate the wives at this event This is for men in ministry leadership only whether you're a pastor a deacon an elder or a leader in a parachurch organization
05:14: Our email address again is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
05:20: and please put Luncheon in the subject line when you send the email and Today, I am so thrilled to have on iron sharpens iron as our guest for the very first time
05:35: Ryan McGraw He is on the faculty at Greenville Theological Presbyterian Seminary in South Carolina.
05:44: He's an author and we are going to be discussing his book Christ's glory your good salvation planned promised accomplished and applied and It's my honor and privilege to welcome you for the very first time to iron sharpens iron
06:00: Ryan McGraw Thank you, Chris, it's a joy to be with you and before we even go into The subject of this book of yours published by Reformation Heritage Books I would like to know something about your personal background the providential occurrences that the
06:16: Lord brought about in your life to draw you to himself and Save you by his mercy
06:23: Sure Well currently as you stated I am professor of systematic theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in South Carolina and before that I pastored in PCA and OPC churches in South Carolina and California.
06:42: I grew up in Southern, California in an unchurched background and Was converted to Christ through the witness of a friend late in high school
06:54: And basically where I was converted was friend was explaining to me for the first time why
07:00: Christ died for us on the cross and That God who made him to do no sin to be sent for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him and so in that sense even as we talk about the book today
07:14: The subject of the glory of Christ is very dear to my own heart as it ought to be of course to every believer
07:22: And and that was something drilled into the very on in my Christian experience
07:27: I labored as something of this pastor in a Baptist Church for about four years in,
07:33: California before I went to Greenville Seminary and Eventually going on to do my
07:39: PhD work At the Jonathan Edwards Center, South Africa through the University of the
07:46: Free State My wife's name is Krista and I have Three boys and one girl and as you mentioned
07:55: Carlyle My father -in -law Deckard Stephens just moved to Carlyle, Pennsylvania Labor there in the
08:02: PTA Church as an associate pastor. That is mind -blowing I had no idea that you knew
08:08: Deckard and let alone were related to him and This is just totally mind -blowing I had no idea and if I'd known that before I would have made an extra effort to have
08:17: Deckard The co -host with me today Wow That is something because I was actually going to ask you before you
08:27: Just inform me of that interesting news. I was gonna ask you Do you have to know Deckard Stephens because I knew of his connection with South Carolina Well, it's
08:41: God is certainly a God of Providence, isn't he But this is truly amazing and I will be sure to get
08:50: Deckard a recording of this program and Although I'm pretty sure that his co -pastor there
08:59: Matt Purdy At least perhaps even Deckard to perhaps
09:05: Got my email from yesterday because they at least Matt Purdy is on my email list.
09:12: So Hopefully And I know I think
09:17: Deckard is as well But he's so new in town that I don't know if I remember to include him on the local email you list yet but anyway, and he's also a really gifted speaker
09:30: I Was privileged to hear him speak to a men's gathering at the
09:37: Carlisle Reform Presbyterian Church not long ago and He was also
09:42: I don't know if you knew he has been a guest on iron sharpens iron as well Okay Yeah, he talked about his struggle and victory over cancer and and How a devotional on Job that banner of truth published?
09:59: Was a great encouragement and blessing in his life during that period But well, when did you realize that you had a call in your life to first enter the ministry and then obviously enter into the
10:17: Scholastic arena the academic world as a professor. I Started getting opportunities to do some teaching in the church as a young Christian and part of that was linked to The fact that when
10:35: I was first converted, I didn't know anything about the Bible virtually at all. And So I took a semester off before I started college where basically
10:46: I did virtually nothing but study the Bible for about six to eight hours a day and Just trying to catch up to where I thought everyone else was at a time and to illustrate
10:59: I went to a Bible study on Matthew and the church I was attending and Hadn't read yet read the
11:05: New Testament and I kept hearing the teacher refer to this Paul guy And I thought maybe this is one of his favorite theologians.
11:14: And of course as I began reading the New Testament realized Paul wrote a large section of the
11:20: New Testament So as I began to study the Bible, I quickly gained the knowledge of the
11:26: English Bible that is English translation And as I did so I was able to begin explaining things to others in a very natural way in conversation and Really before I had any desire for the ministry at least that I was aware of the church began to ask me to do some teaching and at risk of leaping decades ahead
11:56: As they say one thing led to another and so as the Lord began to open more and more opportunities
12:04: Eventually my pastor in Southern, California who had known the
12:09: President of Greenville Seminary Joseph Piper ended up recommending I go up there to seminary
12:17: And then as I've labored in the gospel ministry, I've always had a great love for the church
12:24: And Desired that to be my first labor and ministry. I love the preaching of the word and laboring as a pastor and in that I've also had a burden for many years or laboring for the next generation of the church and so in a way
12:42: I view my work at Greenville Seminary as an extension of My work of being a pastor rather than a totally different Calling so in that sense the model we've adopted is really that of pastors seeking to train pastors
12:58: So I enjoy that model. I love serving men who are
13:05: Seeking to serve Christ Church and preach the gospel and also, I love the opportunity to do some of the writing and speaking and other things that I've had serving at the seminary
13:19: Well, please send my sincere regards to dr.
13:24: Joey Piper because he has been on my program a number of times and wrote a very
13:30: Wonderful commendation for iron sharpens iron that is posted on our website So I will do
13:36: I really appreciate him and his ministry and his mind very much and his heart as well
13:43: And if anybody would like to join us on the air with a question our email address is
13:49: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
13:55: Please give me your first name Your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the
14:02: USA And before we even go into our topic of the specific book
14:08: Christ's glory your good salvation plan promised Accomplished and applied. I do want to touch just a little bit so you can give our
14:19: Listeners a little preview to whet their appetite about a new book coming out that the
14:24: Alliance of confessing evangelicals is Publishing and knowing the Trinity practical thought for daily life
14:31: And I promise those of you at the Alliance of confessing evangelicals Who may be listening that I will get our guests back on the program to speak
14:42: Specifically about that book for two hours after it's released But when after further thought
14:48: These two topics are so deep and rich I think it would be better if we handled them both one at a time for two hours each rather than split up the
14:57: The interview and have them both combined in one show But just so our listeners can have their appetites wet for this tell us about knowing the
15:08: Trinity practical thought for daily life Yeah Not only are both topics worthy of our attention as Believers, but they're also intimately related as so much of our thought about God as triune
15:28: Grows out of our off of Christ as we see in the scripture and so one of the things that I seek to do in knowing the
15:38: Trinity is to delve into many of the triadic passages in the
15:47: New Testament that in other words when I say triadic passages that refer to all three persons of the
15:54: Trinity at once and try to show readers the
16:00: Trinitarian background or backdrop of the entire New Testament and bring it to the foreground and My hope in doing so is really putting the triune
16:09: God himself at the heart of the gospel and taking the Trinity from being something that often sits on the back shelf of our theological thinking and Putting it in the foreground of Christian devotion and though in the last 60 years or so There's been something of a renaissance in Trinitarian theology
16:30: I found that for the most part most of the discussions that have been held have been fairly obtruse and intellectual and Often in the context of Roman Catholicism or Neo Orthodox or Eastern Orthodox and academic forms of theology
16:52: So what I'm really aiming to do in this book is in about three page chapters simply open the
16:59: New Testament and unfold the rich Trinitarian structure of the
17:05: New Testament and its doctrines Hoping that the average person who only doesn't have much time and can read through three pages at a time
17:13: Is able to meditate upon some of these passages and grow in communion with God Great and so keep
17:23: Keep your eyes open and your ears open for more details on the release of that book
17:30: What is it actually expected to be in print? It could potentially be any time.
17:36: We've got the cover done and almost the full text So it's just a matter of getting the final proofs ready and then sending it off.
17:43: So I hope within the next month Great and I know that you can go to Alliance net org for the website of the
17:52: Alliance of confessing evangelicals Alliance net org and Of course, you could keep
17:58: Emailing me for updates at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
18:05: and of course, we'll be giving out Contact information later for Ryan McGraw our guest today
18:11: Well, you've written this book that Reformation Heritage Books has brought into print
18:16: Christ's glory your good salvation planned promised accomplished and applied that Accomplished and applied is reminiscent to me of I believe that was was that John Murray's book on the
18:31: Atonement? Yes Yes, yes Well, tell us about the motivation behind writing this book well in some ways as a
18:45: Christian one of the things that I've always wanted to do in writing books as well as in preaching is to proclaim the unsearchable riches of Christ and Where this book?
18:58: Originated was actually in a series that I preached to my
19:03: PCA congregation in Conway, South Carolina As I was going through the gospel of John and as I finished on 13 and was about to start the great upper -room discourses in John 14 to 16
19:19: I wanted to set forth a more systematic view of the glory of Christ before we began to focus intensely on the person of work of the
19:28: Holy Spirit and For my congregation part of the premise there is that the Spirit's work?
19:35: according to John 16 8 through 11 and verse 14 is ultimately the glorified
19:41: Jesus Christ and So as the Spirit shines the spotlight on Jesus Christ, it's always helpful for us
19:48: To do so and so I took various texts That began with the eternal
19:57: Christ and then took us Through the Old Testament and through each of the key stages of Christ's life and person and work up through his exaltation in order to set forth the glory of Christ, so the order of the passages is systematic and logical following from each are flowing from eternity to eternity
20:19: But the structure of each chapter based on sermons is itself exegetical
20:25: So my goal is really to get people to engage deeply in the text of Scripture On its own terms, but also in an orderly way on top of that.
20:35: Maybe as a general comment not only before writing this book, but after writing this book as Strange as it may sound
20:45: Perhaps to some I'm increasingly convinced that Jesus Christ is
20:51: Often the great missing ingredient in the gospel today Wow, you gotta explain that that's very interesting concept and What I mean by that is
21:01: I'm reminded of a statement that Spurgeon made in the 19th century in lectures to my students
21:09: When one of his students asked him Mr. Spurgeon, what should I preach? And The first thing he said is that you should preach
21:19: Jesus Christ or he is the gospel I Think if you
21:25: You know and I say amen to that as well my whole book in a sense is a long amen to that one statement
21:34: And and as we think about that fact, the reason why I say Jesus Christ is often absent from the gospel
21:41: I've noticed so often when you you ask Christians, for example about their testimony They will often testify to everything other than Jesus Christ They might talk about justification by faith they might talk about their experience of being burdened and sin
21:56: They may say things like I don't know how I could make it through a day without Jesus Christ All of these things are good and true but at the end of the day the gospel is not
22:09: Jesus pumping me through my life's problems or Jesus being some sort of key to a 12 -step program to improve life
22:18: Or even even justification by faith alone The gospel is
22:25: Jesus Christ and in Jesus Christ alone. We find all the benefits of redemption Including justification adoption sanctification and all the others.
22:34: So that's why I say there's there's a unintentional way in Which many professing
22:41: Christians can speak a lot about benefits, but very little about Jesus Christ Amen well, the first subject
22:51: I'd like you to discuss is the eternal Christ and this seems to be an
22:59: Area where the cults and those who claim to be Christian But are only a facade of biblical
23:06: Christianity This is seems to be where they depart from the the
23:12: Bible and the biblical Christ the true Christ That we Worship and honor and serve
23:20: And the Christ who saved us by his blood because a lot of the cults and false
23:26: Christian groups will deny even if not explicitly but they deny in the way that they inconsistently discuss and teach about his existence they
23:41: They will say that really he very often they will say that he appeared on the scene in the manger in Bethlehem or something like that But he is an eternal
23:52: Christ and if you could tell us about that. I think anytime we
23:59: Discuss Jesus Christ himself. We have to begin asking the question.
24:04: Who is Jesus Christ? As our creeds and confessions remind us
24:11: Fundamentally Jesus Christ is the eternal son of God who became man and our
24:21: Statements such as the Westminster Shorter Catechism say things like Jesus is
24:27: God and man in two distinct natures and one person forever
24:34: The personhood of Christ is the person of the eternal son of God the person of the eternal son of God Took on human nature.
24:45: He continued to be the eternal son of God and he also took on true humanity
24:51: And so this is why the New Testament can use language like Acts 20 28 that God purchased the church for his own blood
25:02: God of course, you can neither lie nor die nor change and who doesn't have blood
25:09: Shed his blood and purchased the church And of course, you can only make a statement like that if the person we're talking about is the eternal son of God Who has a perfect and entire divine nature as well as a perfect human nature but we can't think of Jesus as some sort of Schizophrenic figure that has a divine personality and a human personality
25:37: Jesus is ultimately the eternal son of God who took on human flesh and No pun intended fleshing out that statement would would really take us through the entirety of the
25:52: New Testament and most of the old So in the purposes of my book even more than perhaps addressing cults and various theological problems related to the person of Christ What I'm mostly asking is on the basis of this divine identity
26:12: How is this the foundation of? Salvation planned and promised and accomplished and applied
26:22: This first chapter building of the deity and eternal identity of Christ Really picks up on that first part of the subtitle salvation plan
26:33: Because here in the text that I cite from Titus you have the promise of eternal life
26:39: Which I argue is from the Father to the Son given in eternity and now the glory of the gospel involves taking what lay in the hidden counsel of God between the
26:52: Father and The Son and the Holy Spirit now being declared to us in time And so we begin with the eternal
27:00: Christ as foundation of all of the promises of the gospel Well, we are going to our first break right now
27:10: If anybody would like to join us on the air with a question for Ryan McGraw Our email address is
27:15: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com chris Arn Zen at gmail .com
27:22: please give us at least your first name your city and state and your country of residence if you live outside of the
27:29: USA and Please only remain anonymous if this involves a personal and private matter for instance if you're
27:38: Writing us to say that you are in disagreement with your pastor on some theological issue
27:44: Regarding what we are discussing or something of that nature We would obviously not want to identify you by name, but we look forward to your emails
27:56: With questions for our guests at Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
28:03: Don't go away. We are going to be right back after these messages God willing with Ryan McGraw and more on Christ's Glory, you're good.
28:16: We'll be right back after these messages from our sponsors Chris Arnzen here, and I can't wait to head down to Atlanta, Georgia, and here's my friend.
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34:12: Pastor Bill Shishko of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church I'm sure my guest is familiar with him since he also is an adjunct professor at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary and if you listen to the
34:25: The program a visit to the pastor's study, please make sure when you call in to mention that you heard about Pastor Bill's program on iron sharpens iron radio and before I return to our guest
34:38: I just want to give the exciting news and Exciting news that I shared with my guest right before we went on the air
34:45: I just got contacted by Ligonier ministries who personally reached out to me to interview
34:51: John MacArthur Now that you might think that's strange because John MacArthur isn't on staff at Ligonier, but they are publishing a
35:01: John MacArthur's new book that is coming out and we'll give you more details on that as they develop
35:07: But I was honored that Ligonier Specifically reached out to me to conduct an interview with John MacArthur to promote that book and I will keep you updated on the date
35:19: That will be aired. So keep that in prayer that those developments run smoothly because I've only interviewed dr
35:26: MacArthur once on the old iron sharpens iron radio program out of New York Due to his very busy schedule and I'm hoping to get him back on again and often
35:36: So, let's pray that these developments come to fruition and if you just tuned us in our guest today for the full two hours with a little less than 90 minutes to go is
35:48: Ryan McGraw and we are discussing his book Christ's glory your good salvation planned promised accomplished and applied a
35:57: Book by Reformation heritage books if you'd like to join us on the air with a question
36:02: Our email address is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
36:09: and we do have pastor Sterling Vander Worker in Greensboro, North Carolina who has written a question and Pastor Vander Worker Says I was happy to hear the author emphasized the work of the
36:25: Holy Spirit in an introductory comment My question is with the grand work of redemption worked by Jesus Christ as decreed by the
36:33: Father how can we during teaching and preaching best glorify the
36:39: Holy Spirit in his work today in regeneration as a Cessationist, I believe that work can be detailed up to a point with detailed exposition and not resorting to some continuationists tendencies to dramatize the text and Inspire an emotional experience.
36:59: That's a pastor Sterling Vander Worker in Greensboro, North Carolina. Do you have a an answer for our listener there?
37:08: Yeah, I can try to wade my way through that a little bit There's there's quite a lot there in the question
37:17: Yes, that when we think about the work of the Holy Spirit this question in some ways pervades
37:24: I Book on the glory of Christ, but maybe even more so In the book that you and I just discussed on the
37:35: Trinity that we're going to go through in the future But if I can pull through through the material that I have here to talk a little bit about the work of the
37:43: Spirit I think the question is whether we believe in the continuation of extraordinary gifts or this their cessation and And I also hold to their cessation the first questions that we need to ask relate to the primary mission of the
38:06: Spirit in Scripture And I think if we think about the work of the
38:12: Spirit in relation to Christ Beginning with what I've already said about the eternal Christ what we have in terms of the eternal
38:20: Christ is The father chooses some people in Christ to everlasting life and we see that come out for example in passages like Ephesians 1 and then
38:34: Christ According to the father's plan comes to lay down his life for the sheep
38:40: So this is going to lead to in the book why Jesus died for the elect only and not for all men indiscriminately and then the entire
38:51: Trinity works harmoniously in our redemption It's just as the father chose some people and the son died for some people
39:02: So the Spirit applies Christ and the benefits of the gospel to some people as well
39:08: And it's the same group in view and in every case and what we see in the scriptures as a whole is
39:16: That the father first gives Jesus Christ Rather gives the
39:22: Holy Spirit to the incarnate Christ To equip them with all the gifts and the graces that he needed to accomplish his ministry
39:32: So for example, John 3 34 tells us that Christ was anointed with the
39:38: Spirit above measure Isaiah 42 Describes Christ preaching by the
39:45: Spirit of God Isaiah 11 describes various aspects of Christ's character and ministry including his walking in the fear of God as evidence of being filled with the
39:57: Holy Spirit In Acts chapter 10 Peter preaches the gospel to Ananias and he explains
40:08: What's going on in the life of Christ and and what would soon happen to the lives of these people
40:13: In terms of Christ being anointed with the Holy Spirit and power So in other words
40:18: The father first bestows the Spirit upon Jesus Christ Giving him every gift of the
40:26: Spirit for ministry and every grace of the Spirit for godliness Then when we look at the life of the
40:34: Christian the primary work that the Spirit does in the Christian whether in the
40:40: New Testament period where Extraordinary gifts continued or now as I believe we live in the period where they don't
40:47: His primary work is to replicate his work in Christ in a believer
40:53: So as John Owen points out so well In his book of the Holy Spirit as Christ was incarnate by the power of the
41:02: Holy Spirit So we must be born of the Spirit if we would know God as the
41:07: Spirit indwelt Christ Filling him with the fear of God and all the graces that a righteous man needed
41:15: So the Spirit needs to dwell in our hearts and rewrite the law in our hearts and renew us in the image of Christ As the
41:22: Spirit gave Christ every gift and every office of the Spirit without measure
41:29: So he gives offices but especially gifts to Christians by measure
41:35: Which you see in Romans 12 and 1st Corinthians 12 as well So even in Scripture itself regardless of what position one takes on the gifts
41:43: The primary work of the Spirit is to reduplicate in some measure what he already did in the incarnate
41:50: Christ In the life of the Christian and this in turn reflects the eternal order of the persons that from eternity past God exists in three persons
42:01: From the Father through the Son by the Spirit and so in the work of Christ God works
42:09: Through his son by his spirit as well. And then in your heart and in mine Again, God comes to us as father through his son by his spirit
42:20: So that as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2 through Jesus Christ We might come to the father by one spirit
42:29: So I think when we think of the work of the Spirit We need to conjoin his work to the plan of the father and purchase the son
42:37: Well, thank you very much for that very thorough answer and thank you pastor Sterling Vanderwerker for submitting your question
42:44: And guess what you have won a free copy of this book that we are discussing Christ's glory your good salvation plan promised accomplished and applied by Ryan McGraw Compliments of the publishers
42:57: Reformation Heritage books and also compliments of our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service CV BBS comm
43:06: CV for Cumberland Valley BBS for Bible Book Service comm who are going to be shipping that out to you at no charge to iron sharpens iron and and Pastor Vanderwerker is already responding to your your answer.
43:23: That was a great answer. He says looking forward to that book When it is done and The The our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service are
43:39: Very faithful in their support of iron sharpens iron. So we appreciate them for shipping out all of our winners in our audience
43:46: They're free Bibles their books their DVDs CDs and anything else. They win by submitting questions to our listeners to our guests
43:56: I should say and If you'd like to join us on the air as well, our email address is
44:01: Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
44:07: we have Harrison in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania Who said
44:13: I as a Calvinist just like you? experience a lot of opposition to both a limited atonement which you mentioned in your answer to the other listener as Well as unconditional election because it is very misunderstood by them they typically will say that God does a eeny meeny miny moe in his choice of Those he wants to elect as if it is just a purely arbitrary choice
44:46: Because of the fact that we believe it is unconditional, but those two things are not the same.
44:53: Are they? unconditional and arbitrary if you could explain I Say two questions here one related to so -called limited atonement and the other to unconditional election
45:05: Maybe I should begin with a confession. I'm something of a odd Calvinist here because I realized that many people come to what we call the five points of Calvinism gradually and then limited atonement seems to be the last one they get and in my thinking
45:28: Limited atonement was actually the first point that I grasped, you know that I'm another oddball brother
45:35: Because that was the same thing with me Well part of that relates to what
45:42: I Mentioned earlier when you asked me about how I came to Christ. I alluded to 2nd
45:48: Corinthians 5 21 About God making him who knew no sin to be sin for us that we might become righteousness of God in him
45:58: And as soon as someone explained to me if Christ became sin for all people
46:04: Then all people become the righteousness of God in him those two things are intimately tied together and so it immediately makes sense to me that of course
46:15: Christ could not have done the work described in this text for all people and Then as I thought of that and all the other points just seemed to fall into place
46:23: And I'm oversimplifying things because there's a lot more to say than just that particular text
46:30: But I think it's significant that in the 17th century those who were known as Arminians Denied Christ's substitutionary atonement because they could not
46:46: See a reformed view of the atonement fitting with the idea that Christ died for everyone in my case
46:53: That led me to believe that Christ died for the elect only in the Arminians case It led them to believe that Christ didn't substitute for anyone
47:02: And I think there's a discrepancy in what we call modern Arminian theology when people have basically a
47:09: Calvinistic view of Substitutionary atonement, but still affirm that Christ died for all men right and There are issues there that need to be worked out obviously
47:20: Yes, because you cannot be logically consistent and say that Christ died a substitutionary death and yet believe at the same time
47:29: That many if not, most of those he substituted for will be in hell. That doesn't make any sense Yeah, and so I'm very thankful to the
47:38: Lord that my modern Arminian friends are Not as consistent with their theology as the classic
47:45: Arminians were Because they still believe Christ died for them in a biblical sense
47:51: Then the issue with unconditional election on the one hand
47:59: I think that if we simply open our Bibles to Ephesians 1
48:05: Romans 9 And other similar passages, it's very difficult to deny
48:11: What people have called unconditional election? because especially in Romans 9
48:17: Paul virtually states the doctrine as Explicitly as it's humanly possible
48:24: That God did not regard anything Good or evil in Jacob or Esau.
48:31: There was no foreseen faith or foreseen Sin in that case simply
48:37: God's purpose according to election That raises a lot of other questions, but if I can simply address the one that the person sending the email wrote
48:50: Does this mean simply God is simply? Arbitrary say via the crude any money mo analogy given
48:59: I Think we have to recognize that there is difference between not knowing the reason for something that God does and Affirming that there's no reason at all
49:16: Right. So in other words, we have to say that God is infinite in wisdom is power and is understanding are unsearchable and past finding out and no one knows the mind of the
49:30: Lord that he may instruct him and We need to humbly say that there's a reason why
49:37: God chose some and not others but it's not based in anything in them It's simply based on the counsel of his will and that's about all we can say
49:45: Right. It has nothing at all to do with their loveliness or their attractiveness or their goodness innately at all
49:52: That would be the idea of Pelagian ism and all the false religions claiming to be
49:58: Christian But you're just saying that there is a reason it's just It's clear that it's not because we somehow merit or earn or deserve his grace
50:10: Which would be oxymoronic, but that he has a reason that we will never know this side of heaven
50:17: Perhaps not even in eternity Yeah, I think the real witness test of whether we've begun to grasp the biblical doctrine of election is
50:27: If we shift away from asking the question Why didn't
50:33: God choose everyone? You're asking the question. Why would God choose anyone?
50:39: Right wasn't moving to doxology. There's there's a moving statement in the 17th century
50:46: Dutchman Johannes Cox a is his book on the covenant where he ends up saying that the
50:51: Doxology at the end of Romans 11 should be a litmus test for all sound theology
50:57: And the reason why he says that is basically that doxology that's listed there
51:04: Ascribes all glory and honor and praise to God and shows how Paul's doctrine and his teaching should drive us to the praise and honor
51:11: Of God, and I think that's a good test for how well we understand the doctrine of election in Scripture And I need to clarify something that I said before when
51:21: I said I agreed with you that I Also came to embrace the system known as Calvinism first through limited atonement
51:30: I have to clarify that actually I first came to embrace this system which
51:36: I militated against initially for a very brief period of time after my rebirth when a
51:45: Christian a reformed Christian gave me the booklet George Whitfield's letter to John Wesley on election and I read that booklet and God used it to open up my eyes to see that it was true, but I hated it
52:03: I hated that it was true, but the doctrine of limited atonement Was when
52:08: I fell in love with these truths Because it personalized my salvation like I had never understood my salvation before it's interesting that a lot of reformed people
52:20: They will say that they're they're coming to an understanding of reformed theology
52:27: Made them appreciate more the the the corporate
52:33: Love that God has for the church and so on which militated against modern
52:40: Individualism but with me even though I believe that that is a problem that people have in the modern evangelical world
52:46: To me though It was my it was the the individual personalized beauty
52:54: That Christ specifically died for me on that cross Not for a nameless faceless sea of humans and that when he died for me
53:05: He accomplished what he set out to do he was dying on that cross Basically saying
53:11: Chris Arnzen. I am Redeeming you and you will be in heaven with me one day and that just totally
53:18: Revolutionized my understanding of the cross and of my salvation. I don't know if you have any comments to that explanation that I have
53:27: Well, I think I think that's helpful to point out because in our redemption we always have
53:34: Individual and corporate aspects So as James Bannerman once said it's a tremendous blessing that the
53:42: Lord has not Left us to live the Christian life alone And he even says a solitary
53:48: Christian is worse than a contradiction because we're part of the body of Christ, right?
53:54: but that has to be held in tension with the fact that unless you personally are born again and Unless Christ is your
54:00: Savior as an individual and you're also a member of his church and both of those things to hang together then you can't be saved because we're part of his body as well as individually united to Christ That ties in actually pretty well to my second chapter on Genesis 3 15 because I stress both of those elements individual and and the corporate there
54:24: Yeah, in fact, we'll move on to that when we return from the break. Didn't you weren't you involved in some?
54:30: Aspect with banner of truths publishing of Bannerman's book the Church of Christ Indirectly I helped promote it privately the connection is that I ended up doing a abridgment and series of outlines based on Bannerman's Church of Christ that I've used in Sunday school and in a couple of different churches
54:54: But that came out through a different publisher But it's it certainly is compatible with and works well with the better edition
55:02: Okay, great, but we're going to a break right now and Seth in Randleman, North Carolina if you could hold on we will get to your question as soon as we can after the break and Everybody else that's waiting as well.
55:16: And if you would like to join us or join them as well by writing your own question
55:22: Our email is Chris Arnzen at gmail .com Chris Arnzen at gmail .com
55:28: Please at least give us your first name city and state and country of residence If you live outside of the
55:33: USA and please only remain anonymous if it's about a personal and private matter Such as a doctrinal conflict in your own congregation or something like that.
55:43: We'll be right back after these messages So don't go Chris Arnzen host of iron sharpens iron radio And here's one of my favorite guests
55:50: Todd Friel to tell you about a conference. He and I are going to hello, this is Todd Friel host of wretched radio and a wretched a
55:58: TV and Occasional guest on Chris's show Think I think that's what it's called
56:09: Hoping that you can join Chris and me at the g3 conference in Atlanta My new hometown it is going to be a bang -up conference called the g3 conference celebrating the 500th anniversary of the
56:24: Protestant Reformation with Paul Washer Steve Lawson da Carson Vodie Bauckham Conrad and Bayway Phil Johnson James White and a bunch of other people
56:32: We hope to see you there learn more at g3 conference .com g3 conference .com
56:39: I Thanks, Todd. I think see you at the iron sharpens iron exhibitors booth
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59:30: Hi, I'm Pastor Bill Shishko, inviting you to tune in to a visit to the Pastor's Study every
59:36: Saturday from 12 noon to 1 pm on WLIE Radio. www .wlie540am
59:46: .com. We bring biblically faithful pastoral ministry to you, and we invite you to visit the
59:51: Pastor's Study by calling in with your questions. Our time will be lively, useful, sometimes controversial, but never dull.
59:59: Join us this Saturday at 12 noon for a visit to the Pastor's Study, because everyone needs a pastor.
01:00:05: That's 12 noon to 1 pm Eastern Time on WLIE 540
01:00:10: AM on the radio dial if you live in the New York tri -state area, and even parts of Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Pennsylvania.
01:00:18: You can hear the program anywhere on the planet Earth via live streaming at www .wlie540am .com.
01:00:27: And we thank Pastor Bill Shishko of a visit to the Pastor's Study for being such a blessing to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio over the years.
01:00:36: And was I correct, Brother McGraw, that do you know Pastor Bill Shishko due to his affiliation not only with the
01:00:43: OPC, but also the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary? I do.
01:00:49: I've had him as a professor in the past, and he engaged in vigorous efforts to get me into the
01:00:58: OPC eventually, and I ended up there in God's providence with no real connection to what
01:01:05: Bill did. But he's become not only a mentor, but a good friend.
01:01:12: And until recently he taught our Pastoral Theology course at the seminary, and now as Bill has shifted his ministry elsewhere,
01:01:21: Ian Hamilton has taken up the class. Oh, great. Yeah, I'd like to get Ian Hamilton on the program as well.
01:01:28: In fact, I wouldn't mind interviewing everybody on the faculty at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary, so you can spread the word about that.
01:01:36: Before we go into the next chapter of your book, we have Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, that says, sorry to ask another question on limited atonement.
01:01:46: You never have to apologize for that. But how would you respond to those who say that Christ's death was sufficient for all, but efficient only for those who believe?
01:01:56: And I think that may have been a phrase that Andrew Fuller made popular in his day, and he was a five -point
01:02:03: Calvinist, but explained it that way, I believe. And if you have any comments, please, Ryan. Actually, the phrase goes back much further than that.
01:02:14: Oh, it does? It can be found in Augustine and others in the early church.
01:02:19: Okay. So in the Reformation and post -Reformation period,
01:02:26: Reformed authors tended to vacillate on whether they actually liked the phrase.
01:02:32: I mentioned the best theologian, Coxaeus, recently. He did not like the phrase because he thought it was liable to be misunderstood.
01:02:42: Others tried to explain it. And so maybe by way of answer, the first thing that I would have to say is it depends on what someone means by the phrase, and rather than give you every imaginative possibility of what might be wrong with it, let me just summarize what was a standard way of using it.
01:03:04: Well, often authors that use that phrase positively simply intended to say that though Jesus died only for his elect, because of the infinite dignity of his person, he would not have to suffer more if there were more elect than there are.
01:03:28: Or another way to put it, if Christ died for an infinite number of worlds of people, he would not suffer more than he actually did in his earthly ministry.
01:03:43: That's not because somehow when we think about the work of Christ, we think about our sins somehow piling up, and Christ suffered just enough to meet those sins.
01:03:56: And I've often heard Christians say, you shouldn't commit this sin because you add to Christ's sufferings, or you shouldn't commit this sin because you love
01:04:04: Jesus Christ and it offends the glory of God, and God purchased your redemption at great cost.
01:04:10: But Jesus Christ's sufferings were valuable because of the dignity of his person, because he is the eternal son of God who cannot suffer and die, yet took on free human flesh.
01:04:24: The attributes of both natures are attributed to the works of the whole person.
01:04:31: So again, God purchased the church with his own blood. So in that sense, if we say sufficient for all, we simply mean that Christ's death is of infinite value.
01:04:43: But the objects of his death were the elect alone. And so some,
01:04:50: I think, reformed others that explained it that way, which I think is an acceptable way of using the phrase.
01:04:56: Great. Well, you are also getting a free copy of the book we are discussing,
01:05:03: Christ's Glory, Your Good, by Ryan M. McGraw. So Seth in Randleman, North Carolina, if you could please give us your full mailing address, we will have that shipped out to you as soon as possible by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,
01:05:22: cvbbs .com. And before we move on again to that next chapter in your book,
01:05:32: I think something needs to be clarified. There are people, the common misunderstanding about Calvinism and the common accusation that Armenians make against Calvinism, especially in regard to the atonement, or it could be said against unconditional election as well, is that God is either choosing, or should
01:05:55: I say, God is either neglecting to choose or bypassing people or not dying for people,
01:06:03: Christ is not dying for people, that otherwise would have had an opportunity to be saved.
01:06:10: In other words, their view of free will, their view that man in his sinful nature has enough goodness in his heart that he can muster up within his dead, lifeless soul enough faith that will please
01:06:26: God and save him, they think that a Calvinist is saying that that person who otherwise would have freely come to Christ is somehow being blocked with a roadblock or something.
01:06:41: In other words, that God is actually doing something miraculous in a negative way to deflect a person from coming to him and also condemning someone to eternal damnation that otherwise would have benefited from his blood.
01:07:06: But this is not at all what the Reformed faith has ever taught, nor is it obviously what the scriptures teach, correct?
01:07:14: Yeah, and I think when we think about the so -called five points of Calvinism, all of them hang together.
01:07:24: So we can't envision people wandering around innocently desiring salvation and the true knowledge of God and then perishing.
01:07:36: We have to take the scriptures seriously that people are sinful, we are sinful in and of ourselves.
01:07:44: Jeremiah 17 not only tells us that the human heart is desperately wicked and beyond our understanding, no one can know it other than God, who searches not only the deep things of God but of man.
01:07:57: But also Jesus tells us in John 8 that he who sins is a slave to sin.
01:08:03: And as slaves to sin, he tells the scribes and Pharisees that they obey the will of their father the devil and their father's will they want to do.
01:08:14: It's possible, say in light of Hebrews 12, for a profane or a wicked man, as Esau is basically described there, to desire his birthright and effectively to desire salvation or deliverance from wrath.
01:08:36: But that's not the same thing as having love for Christ or to use the language of the text, finding room or place for repentance.
01:08:45: And I'm reminded of something that the Puritan Patrick Gillespie said in his
01:08:51: Covenant Theology that a temporary believer, that is someone who professes faith in Christ without possessing
01:08:59: Christ himself, may desire salvation. But a true believer finds in Christ something better than salvation.
01:09:09: And that goes back to where we began the interview as well, that it's not a list of benefits that constitute the gospel.
01:09:17: There may be unconverted people who are enemies of God who want all of those things. But that's not the same thing as seeing the excellence, glory, and beauty of Jesus Christ which the
01:09:28: Spirit alone can produce. When the Father chooses sinful people and sends
01:09:34: Christ to redeem them, and the Spirit to change their hearts, he's not sending
01:09:39: Christ to die for innocent people or for the Spirit to persuade living people.
01:09:45: But he's sending Christ to die for his enemies and the Spirit to breathe new life into their souls.
01:09:53: And all of those things, in other words, hang together. Amen. And he's not dying for neutral people either.
01:10:02: There are no morally neutral people, which even when Armenians would typically not say that, it is very often the implication of what they are saying.
01:10:17: How dare God condemn someone who really doesn't deserve this because they're after all neutral and they could have summoned up enough faith to be saved if he didn't somehow put a roadblock to that.
01:10:33: But anyway. Well, let's move on to the next chapter. And I can already tell that this book, although not very thick in size, is going to require probably more than one program to discuss.
01:10:49: The Christ of Genesis 3 .15, if you could. Yeah. I should warn readers that, as I mentioned, when
01:10:59: I preach the text on which these chapters are based, I did so obviously in the context of my congregation, but I'm also something of a sneaky, systematic theologian.
01:11:14: Not that I'm trying to pull a fast one on anyone, but there's, in a sense, the way that I'm presenting the material unfolds the entire system of theology in brief.
01:11:27: And so this makes this book not only a book on Christ, but a miniature, simple, systematic theology and almost a full -orb gospel tract all at the same time.
01:11:39: And at least that's my aim and that's why it's short. So the connections that I'm trying to make are starting with the eternal
01:11:46: Christ and the eternal agreements between the Father and the Son regarding redemption with the consent of the
01:11:55: Spirit, then working itself out in history. So, in other words, Chapter 1 gives the blueprint and Chapter 2 begins to build the framing of the house.
01:12:08: And then the rest of the chapters put the siding on and finish the work.
01:12:14: And so as we think about Genesis 3 .15, which describes the enmity between the woman and serpents and between her seed, singular, and his seed, and then her seed, plural, and his seed,
01:12:33: I think there are several things going on here. You have, as the Puritan John White put it, three pairs of opposition.
01:12:42: You've got the woman versus the serpent, you've got Christ versus Satan, and then ultimately you've got
01:12:50: Christ's people versus Satan's people. And this passage, by implication, contains virtually everything the rest of the
01:13:02: Bible is going to tell us about redemption in brief. In fact, the 17th century,
01:13:11: Peter van Maastricht in the Netherlands chose to treat a long chapter on the concept of the covenant in the
01:13:22: Bible exclusively based on this text because of what
01:13:27: I've just said and its implications for everything else. So in brief, what I do here is not only move from eternity, but note that there is a prequel to Genesis 3 .15,
01:13:40: which I tried to argue from scripture, is what we call a covenant of works between God and Adam, in which
01:13:48: Adam represents his people, and when he sinned, we fell in him and sinned with him via Romans 5 and other passages.
01:13:59: And then Genesis 3 .15 gives the first gospel proclamation, interestingly, to Satan.
01:14:09: God is speaking to Satan about the enmity that he will cause between him and the woman at her seed, and so on.
01:14:17: And what this describes ultimately is that humanity is divided into two classes represented by two heads, of course, ultimately
01:14:28: Christ and Adam. But in this case, we also see
01:14:33: Christ versus Satan. And so those who fell in Adam are
01:14:38: Satan's seed, and those who are redeemed by Christ are
01:14:44: Christ's seed. And so you have the alternation between the singular and the plural, so what's true of the one is true of the other.
01:14:52: When you come to Galatians 3 and other New Testament passages, you see the application of Genesis 3 .15
01:14:59: via Abraham coming to the forefront. So Paul can say, for example, that the promise to Abraham in your seed, all the nations of the earth will be blessed, was given to your seed as of one, not many, and that seed is
01:15:15: Christ. But then at the end of the chapter, he tells believers that if you are in Christ, you are
01:15:21: Abraham's seed. So who's the seed? Well, it's Christ who crushed the serpent's head through his work on the cross, and it's also his people who are united to Christ and receive all the benefits of his victory.
01:15:38: And so I think both things are embedded in Genesis 3 .15. I can't go through all the details, obviously, in this short space, but one of the things
01:15:46: I love to do with this passage, in churches especially, is not only use it to unlock the teaching of Genesis, but also the entirety of the
01:15:59: Bible. And let me just give a couple of hints there. When you read through Genesis, the narrative basically flows in terms of dividing the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.
01:16:12: So this explains, for example, the genealogies. Where is the story progressing? With this line, not with that line.
01:16:21: The godly seed being separated until the great seed of Abraham through whom the nations will be blessed will come versus Satan and his seed who constitute the line of Cain and the rest of the world.
01:16:34: Then you get to passages that often puzzle us when we're reading through our Bibles like 1
01:16:40: Chronicles 1 -9. And we ask ourselves the question, why, when the
01:16:46: Lord could have written anything he chose in his word, did he give us nine chapters of genealogy?
01:16:52: Well, if you look at this principle of the seed versus the seed, it begins to make sense out of the issue because, again, the author is putting this up to speed.
01:17:02: There's the seed of the woman progressing through the line of David and David becomes the hero now.
01:17:09: And the seed of the serpent is shuffled off to the side and mentioned briefly and pushed off out of the line, as it were.
01:17:17: And then, of course, this comes to its highest culmination in the genealogies of Christ where now the line of the seed of the woman through Noah and Abraham and Moses and David all the way down to Jesus Christ himself is set forth.
01:17:36: So, in brief, I think if you put this verse in context and understand it correctly, as Christ united to his people versus Satan and his people, the whole gospel begins to unfold and the verse moves from eternity into history and pulls us through the entire
01:17:54: Old Testament through one verse. And, if you could now, move on to the incarnate
01:18:02: Christ. Okay. Very briefly, what
01:18:08: I aim to do in the chapter on the incarnate Christ and then later, chapter 7, on the exalted
01:18:17: Christ is to take the entire passage in Philippians 2 verses 5 down to verse 11 and split it into two parts.
01:18:30: So, 5 through 8 deals with Christ's humiliation and then 9 through 11 deals with his exaltation.
01:18:39: And so I argue from this text that the one who emptied himself and took on the form of a servant is the eternal son of God equal with the
01:18:50: Father in the form of God who didn't consider it robbery to be equal with God.
01:18:56: So, in other words, I'm using the passage to describe the incarnation, not only in terms of Christ becoming a human being, but Christ taking on the lowliest condition possible as a slave and, as it were, the text takes us down one step at a time until we reach the depths in his death and his humiliation on the cross.
01:19:24: And then chapter 7 takes us back up the stairs again. And then the material in between really fleshes out related issues that result from the incarnation such as his obedience, his suffering, and then his resurrection.
01:19:42: We have CJ from Lindenhurst, Long Island, New York, who says,
01:19:48: I have heard differences of opinion from brethren who appear to be very faithful and theologically sound as to whether or not it's a heresy to reject the impeccability of Christ when he was living on this earth.
01:20:09: There are some Christians who say that to deny the impeccability of Christ may be wrong, but it is not serious enough to be condemned as a heresy to deny that.
01:20:30: There are others who say that it is so serious to say that there is a possibility
01:20:36: Christ could have chosen to sin. What is your guest's opinion on this? Well, I can partly answer this by appealing to some of these other chapters that I've mentioned, such as the obedience of Christ, which comes next.
01:20:52: Let me suggest that the best place to begin is where Scripture begins.
01:21:01: There are, well, there is about a thousand years worth of scholastic theology before and after the
01:21:10: Reformation that address this question, so it's a large question, and it continues to come up today.
01:21:16: But the best place to start, I think, for the sake of simplicity, is what does the Bible say about Jesus' relation to sin?
01:21:24: We're told in Hebrews and in Romans that he was made like us in all points except for sin.
01:21:33: So, if you combine that with what I said about the Atonement from 2 Corinthians 5 earlier, we could say it this way, that Christ has imputed sin, but no personal sin.
01:21:49: In other words, God counted the sins of the elect to Christ so that he would suffer the penalties of that sin in this life and on the cross and in the grave.
01:22:02: But he had no personal sin. He was the man that could say to his accusers, which of you accuses me of sin?
01:22:12: And there's not been a single human being that's lived on the earth since Adam that's been able to make such a bold statement.
01:22:19: There's not a just man on the earth that does good and does not sin, the Scripture says. So, Christ did not have any personal sin, though he did have imputed sin.
01:22:31: Christ represented us in bearing the penalty of our sin, but the
01:22:40: Scriptures say that in thought, word, and deed he did not have any actual sin.
01:22:47: So, I don't think it's proper for us to say that he took on a sinful human nature in the sense of having corrupt desires and a corrupt affections which affect the actions of the body and so on and so forth.
01:23:02: When he was tempted as Satan, there's a difference between an external and an internal temptation, and I think the older authors are right in telling us that he received the external temptation to sin, but no internal compulsion to go after it.
01:23:19: So, that's one thing that's important to consider. However, one thing that I note about his obedience is the
01:23:28: Bible does say again in Hebrews that he learned obedience by the things that he suffered, and what that tells us in Scripture is that sinlessness doesn't necessarily mean that there's no room for development.
01:23:49: So, Jesus is a sinless two -year -old. He neither has the capacity or the knowledge of a sinless 12 -year -old, and as a sinless 12 -year -old, he not only doesn't have the capacity or the knowledge, he also doesn't have the responsibilities of a sinless 30 -year -old.
01:24:09: And so in every stage of Jesus' life, the Bible depicts his heart as keeping in step with the law of God.
01:24:18: So, he's actually sinless, and the Bible says that he was like us in everything sin accepted, and we need to remember that the desire internally after sin is sin, and if Christ had that, he would not be sinless, but a sinner.
01:24:37: We can say, however, that the human nature that he took was not purely like Adam's in the garden.
01:24:47: He basically grew weary in his labors. We don't read of Jesus getting sick in the
01:24:55: Scriptures, and I don't think we should speculate on that point, but he suffers the infirmities that we face in this life as penalties for sin.
01:25:07: So, humanity has deeply affected by sin, and he bears the penalty of sin, but that's not the same thing as saying he took on a sinful human nature, and I think the
01:25:18: Scripture would lead us away from that. Do you think that some of this misunderstanding about the nature of Christ comes from a misunderstanding of a of the word temptation or tempted?
01:25:36: People today, in the 21st century, and even in the 20th century, if you are describing yourself as being tempted by something, that typically means, 99 % of the time today, you're saying, wow,
01:25:53: I think I would like to do that. That looks really good, but I know I shouldn't, but I really want to do that.
01:26:00: And I even heard, and he's going to remain nameless, but a very well -known evangelical
01:26:09: Christian media figure who is universally beloved crossing denominational lines.
01:26:18: He is not theologically reformed, I'll at least say that. But he said that Christ wanted to sin, but he never yielded to that temptation.
01:26:30: But what he failed to recognize was wanting to commit sin is sin.
01:26:36: Yeah. Well, isn't that the whole point of the Sermon on the Mount? Right. That the desire of sin in the heart is sin, or for that matter, the whole purpose of the
01:26:47: Tenth Commandment, you shall not covet, is almost truly inward. Right. So, yeah, so we need to be cautious.
01:26:58: In other words, when we talk about the humanity of Jesus Christ, and I think one thing that people struggle with is we are sinners, and when we think about our temptation to sin, we do have something of that internal desire that echoes within us, and it's hard for us to imagine how can a human being go through his life without that, and yet Jesus can say,
01:27:30: Satan has nothing in me. And I don't think he could say that if he did have the internal desires after sin.
01:27:37: And thank you very much. We are going to be mailing you also a free copy of Christ's Glory, Your Good Salvation Plan, Promised, Accomplished, and Applied by Ryan M.
01:27:49: McGraw. If you give us your full mailing address, thank you very much for the excellent question.
01:27:54: We are going to our final station break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail dot com.
01:28:03: chrisarnson at gmail dot com. A listener in Kinross, Scotland has sent us an email that we will address after we return from the break.
01:28:14: Murray in Kinross, Scotland, thank you very much for your email, and we are going to be back,
01:28:19: God willing, right after these messages, so please do not go away.
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01:40:03: God looks at you and me in Jesus Christ, He doesn't simply see the penalty of His law paid by Christ's sufferings, but He sees the obedience of the law fulfilled in Christ's obedience.
01:40:18: And so, He was a righteous 2 -year -old that He might save 2 -year -olds. He was a righteous 12 -year -old to save 12 -year -olds.
01:40:26: He was a righteous adult to save adults. And so, in every aspect of Jesus' life,
01:40:34: He was a walking transcript of the law of God. And this is significant not only for our justification, in which
01:40:43: God counts us righteous in the righteousness of Christ, but also in our sanctification, in which the
01:40:50: Spirit is taking the same law that Jesus exemplified and rewrites it on our hearts as well.
01:41:01: And just to illustrate the nature of His obedience, and maybe tying this briefly back to the previous question, in other words, about the sinlessness of Christ's humanity, there's a lot more to say, but one instance of His obedience that I always find striking is
01:41:18: His prayer in Gethsemane. And it's a struggle over the text, because the question is, you know,
01:41:25: Jesus says in John, Father, what shall I say? Deliver me from this hour, for this hour
01:41:31: I've come. And now He's saying, if there's any other way, take this cup from me.
01:41:37: And I think one way to look at it is to ask a couple of questions. What does
01:41:43: God require of a sinless man in such a circumstance, or any man for that matter?
01:41:50: Well, first, to love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. That's the, what shall
01:41:57: I say, deliver me from this hour, because it's Christ's food to do His Father's will, which is why
01:42:03: He says, not my will but yours be done. But then, a godly man also says, whom have
01:42:09: I in heaven but you, and there's not upon earth that I desire besides you. And a true believer, of which
01:42:16: Christ was the ultimate paradigm, loves God above all with His heart, mind, soul, and strength.
01:42:23: So in contemplating being separated from the favor of His Father in His human nature, as a perfect man, how could
01:42:32: He say anything other than, let this cup pass from me, because it militates against His highest aim in life, and His greatest desire in His soul?
01:42:42: And yet, how could He say anything other than, not my will but yours be done? And I think in that simple example, you start to see the profundity and the beauty of Christ's obedience, and in a way that almost boggles our minds.
01:42:58: But the important thing here is that He's both a foundation for our salvation in His whole life and His whole obedience, and He's also the pattern through which we're being conformed.
01:43:10: And, by the way, before I forget to say this, I want to give a shout out to Taylor Ignacio. Taylor is the youngest son and the fourth oldest child of the five children, or I should say
01:43:27: I'm sorry, the six children of the woman who led me to Christ back in the 1980s,
01:43:35: Susan. Taylor Ignacio, I'm hoping that you are listening either live but more realistically through the recording that I'm going to email you, because Ryan, your voice sounds identical to my friend's son, and it is eerie because it's as if I am listening to my friend's son, who has somehow, miraculously, overnight become a brilliant Christian theologian.
01:44:05: Oh, that's funny. I don't know if I should mention that I'm actually sick as well. Oh, really?
01:44:11: So you don't normally talk like this? That's funny.
01:44:18: Well, I didn't mean to insult you there, Taylor, but I don't even know if Taylor will be able to hear, because very rarely do people hear the way that they themselves sound.
01:44:30: But I think you sound, right now anyway, you sound just like Taylor Ignacio, who has become a brilliant theologian.
01:44:41: And if anybody else wants to join us on the air, our email address is chrislorenson at gmail dot com, because we are running out of time, and we do have a couple of people that are waiting to have their questions answered, but if you could move on to the suffering
01:44:55: Christ first. Yeah, very simply, this entire chapter is based on one word in the
01:45:04: Greek text of John 19 -30, tetelestai, which means it is finished. If you look at a plethora of biblical commentators and theologians on the meaning of the passage of this word, the explanation is expansive.
01:45:25: What was finished? Well, in some sense, and you'd have to look at the chapter to see some of the options and where it lands, you could just say everything.
01:45:34: The whole culmination of his earthly ministry is now coming to its completion.
01:45:41: The stairs that march down to his death in Philippians 3 have reached the bottom.
01:45:48: And Christ has accomplished his sufferings and his obedience, and in the text
01:45:55: I think it's fair to say the accent falls on the sufferings. Maybe just one thing to mention, as Christ finished his work on the cross and breathed out at last and committed his spirit to the
01:46:11: Father, we need to remember, as the 17th century theologian
01:46:18: Hermann Gipsius reminds us, that some can unintentionally demean the sufferings of Christ by limiting them to the cross.
01:46:28: So in other words, Christ saves us predominantly through the cross, but he lived a life of suffering, and everything in his life and every act of suffering, including all the miseries of this world that he underwent were for our sakes, and the cross is simply the high point of what he's done.
01:46:49: And so when he says, to tell us thy it is finished, he has accomplished everything necessary for our redemption.
01:46:57: And keeping up the systematic character, I ask several questions here. What was finished?
01:47:03: How was it finished? Why was it finished? So what's he doing, in other words, in relation to both his two natures and the character of God?
01:47:15: And then for whom, which is going to take us back to the issues of the
01:47:21: Father's election in chapter 1, and then finally, what were the results?
01:47:27: So this, in a snapshot, gives us a panoramic view of everything that Christ suffered.
01:47:34: We have Joe in Slovenia, who asks,
01:47:40: Is Christ's glory your good? An explanation of Augustine's statement, Thou hast made us for thyself,
01:47:47: O Lord, and our heart is restless until it finds its rest in thee. And the
01:47:52: Westminster Shorter Catechism 1st article, Man's chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him forever.
01:47:59: If so, please address the why this topic is so rarely the focus of much of what we see as normative in modern evangelicalism.
01:48:09: Thank you, Joe from Slovenia. If you could, Ryan. Yeah, with regard to the first part of the question, the book is not itself an exposition of the statement from Augustine, but in a sense, the statement in the first paragraph of the
01:48:29: Confessions almost serves as an entryway into all questions related to salvation.
01:48:38: The Westminster Shorter Catechism goes one step further and introduces all questions related to theology, period.
01:48:46: And the reason why I state things that way is the glory of God, of course, is the end of everything, and the primary result of that is going to come in us, anyway, through our knowledge of God and finding our joy and our satisfaction in his fellowship.
01:49:07: And so, certainly, those things need to come to the foreground. The Westminster Shorter Catechism itself is really based on a broader scholastic discussion, and lest that sound intimidating with the word scholastic, it's actually quite simple.
01:49:25: The issue that usually came up was, first and foremost, the purpose of theology is the glory of God, and then the subordinate purpose of theology, or secondary purpose, is the salvation of sinners.
01:49:43: And so, in Jesus Christ, God glorifies himself by saving us.
01:49:50: And so I think, however we think about the Gospel, it needs to stand at the heart of things, which is why, in this book,
01:49:56: I'm really trying to push forward the glory of Christ's person. It struck me a long time ago that John Owen said that when a person is converted to Christ, one of the first things that changes is that they love the
01:50:13: Gospel way of salvation because of the ways that it glorifies God.
01:50:19: In other words, it's not just a matter of all the things that I get. Christ, as Edwards put it, in other words, is not a prostitute that somebody comes to pull benefits out of, but he is a husband that we love and are committed to and find all of our blessings in.
01:50:38: Wow, that's a great quote. I can't remember where it is offhand.
01:50:44: Well, Joe, in Slovenia, thank you so much for the great questions, and you have won our final copy of Christ's Glory, Your Good, Salvation Plan Promised, Accomplished and Applied by Ryan M.
01:50:57: McGraw. And thank you for providing us with an American mailing address because of the shipping expense overseas is monumental.
01:51:07: So we will ship this out to you, to your daughter, actually, in America, and we thank you for providing us with that mailing address.
01:51:17: And that will be shipped to you by our friends at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, CVBBS .com.
01:51:23: That's CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com. And while I am thinking of them with the
01:51:32: Christmas season here, I would really appreciate it if you would do much of your gift purchasing from CVBBS .com,
01:51:42: CV for Cumberland Valley, BBS for Bible Book Service dot com. And also from Solid Ground Christian Books, Solid -Ground -Books .com,
01:51:54: Solid -Ground -Books .com. Because they sponsor this program, and obviously they are more likely to continue sponsoring the program if they are blessed by the listeners of Iron Sharpens Iron, returning their appreciation through purchasing their products,
01:52:16: I should say. So I would really appreciate it very much if you do that, and also, obviously, let them know at CVBBS .com
01:52:25: and also at Solid Ground Christian Books, let them know that you heard about them from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.
01:52:33: And we do have, we have
01:52:39: David in Ada, Ohio, who says, I hear a lot of people talk about growing closer to God without mentioning
01:52:47: Jesus. I agree He is the eternal Son of God, the second person in the
01:52:52: Godhead. My question is, do you think it is right to say that Jesus is my Lord and my
01:52:58: God? That doesn't seem to be a popular way of identifying with Him.
01:53:04: By the way, I meant the Trinity when I said the Godhead, as defined by James White in the
01:53:11: Forgotten Trinity. Thank you. If you could respond to David in Ada, Ohio.
01:53:18: Well, at least in terms of the title, my Lord and my God, of course that's an appropriate title.
01:53:25: James, I'm sorry, Thomas said that. Yes, I was about to say that the quote from Scripture in John chapter 20, so Thomas does refer to Christ as my
01:53:39: Lord and my God, and Christ accepts His worship, and we ought to follow His example in that regard.
01:53:47: And I think here, in terms of growing closer to God, I've noticed the same thing of people giving their testimonies and talking about their
01:54:01: Christian growth with almost no reference to Jesus. Without picking on a specific church, we visited the church of a family member recently, and it's not
01:54:13: Reformed, and the worship services tend to pull out a lot of Scripture and Scriptural emphases, and the plea was that we're here seeking to evangelize.
01:54:31: So my family and I came to visit, and what struck me is in a so -called evangelistic sermon calling people to salvation and mentioning the name of Christ, there was almost nothing about the person of Christ.
01:54:47: So people would walk away from a so -called evangelistic message and not know anything about who Jesus is.
01:54:53: Well, if that's the way people are evangelizing, it doesn't surprise me that that's the way people are trying to live the
01:54:59: Christian life as well. And so this is why, in some sense, when
01:55:05: I talk about this book and talk about this subject, my own heart is stirred passionately and perhaps even more passionately than just about anything
01:55:14: I talk about, because we need to remember as Christians, whether in our initial conversion or throughout our lives, we have different experiences, but we all have the same testimony.
01:55:25: Our testimony is not to ourselves, but to Jesus Christ, the Lord. And this is what we need to recover in our hearts and at the heart of our confession as Christians.
01:55:36: Amen. Amen. And thank you, David in Ada, Ohio. And now we have our final question that we have time to read.
01:55:44: Again, we have Murray in Kinross, Scotland, with a question this time. Would you see, this is my beloved
01:55:50: Son in whom I am well pleased, as speaking of the acceptability of Christ's whole life as a sweet -smelling savor to God?
01:56:02: The simple answer is yes. But I also think, to tease that out a bit, it would have to apply to the whole person.
01:56:13: In other words, to the eternal Son of God incarnate in human flesh.
01:56:19: So as the eternal Son of God, Christ always is the delight and joy of His Father from eternity to eternity, but as incarnate in human flesh, everything that He does from His birth to His death and resurrection and into eternity is pleasing to His Father.
01:56:40: So He is the delight of His Father as His equal and the eternal
01:56:45: Son of God, and He's also the delight of His Father as a perfect man.
01:56:52: Well, if you could, in about two minutes, summarize the resurrected
01:56:58: Christ and the reigning Christ. Basically, in terms of dealing with the resurrected
01:57:09: Christ and then I have the exalted Christ and reigning, basically I begin with the resurrection in Romans 8, partly because of the theological implications.
01:57:23: So we are united to Christ, not only in His life, His suffering, His death, but in His resurrection.
01:57:30: And this has implications now in that through Christ's resurrection we are dead to sin and live to God, but in the future we shall be raised in glory and the world itself will be renovated and Christ will finally undo the curse of sin.
01:57:50: And then in the exalted Christ, I turn back to Philippians 2, walking back up the stairs in the analogy that I've given, all the way to His exaltation, to the
01:58:00: Father's right hand, His session, His pouring out of the Spirit, and then the reigning
01:58:06: Christ is what is Jesus doing now. And this brings in the doctrine of the
01:58:11: Church from Ephesians 4. So Christ is reigning in and through the Church, He's reigning over all things for the sake of the
01:58:19: Church, and He's governing His people by His Word and Spirit. So this not only shows us how we have communion with Christ and His people, but it also shows us how
01:58:29: Jesus Himself continues to minister to and govern His Church.
01:58:35: And so this is where I meant of being a sneaky, systematic theologian, that everything starts coming in as we go closer to the end.
01:58:44: Well, Sari Osinachi in Nigeria, we cannot answer your question today, but we will keep that saved for another program when the subject is appropriate.
01:58:55: He's asking a question about the Sabbath. And we thank everybody else who wrote in and that we didn't have time to address during the program.
01:59:04: We ran out of time too quickly. But I want to thank everybody for listening, and I want to thank our guest,
01:59:09: Ryan McGraw. And once again, the website for the Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary is gpts .edu.
01:59:19: Gpts .edu, do you have any other contact information that you care to provide? That would be the primary one, and all of our email addresses are first and last name at gpts .edu.
01:59:34: Well, I just want all of you to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater
01:59:40: Savior than you are a sinner. We hope that you have a safe, joyful, and blessed weekend and Lord's Day.