Veritas Seminary and More on Rome

Webcasting around the world from the desert metropolis of Phoenix, Arizona. This is the dividing line

The Apostle Peter commanded Christians to be ready to give a defense for the hope that is within us Yet to give that answer with gentleness and reverence

Our host is dr. James white director of Alpha Omega ministries and an elder at the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church This is a live program and we invite your participation.

If you'd like to talk with dr. White call now It's 602 nine seven three four six zero two or toll -free across the

United States. It's one eight seven seven seven five three Three three four one and now with today's topic.

Here is James wife And good afternoon. Welcome to the dividing line on a Thursday afternoon before we return to the discussion of the

Matt slick Robertson Janice encounter on the subject. Well, it's supposed to be unmarried ended up being on all sorts of other topics

Two things I wanted to address one that was just pointed out to me from the Alliance Defense Fund Attorneys the

Alliance Defense Fund filed suit against Augusta State University Wednesday on behalf of a counseling student told that her

Christian beliefs are unethical and incompatible with prevailing views the counseling profession The student

Jennifer Keaton has been told to stop sharing her beliefs with others and that she must change her beliefs in order to graduate from the counseling program

Augusta State ordered Keaton to undergo a Re -education plan in which she must attend diversity sensitivity training complete additional remedial reading and write papers to describe their impact on her beliefs if She does not change her beliefs or agree to the plan the university says it will expel her from the counselor education program a public university shouldn't be threatened with a

Public university student shouldn't be threatened with expulsion for being a Christian refusing to publicly renounce her faith

That's exactly what's happening here is simply put the university is imposing thought reform said ADF senior counsel

David French Abandoning one's own Religious beliefs should not be a precondition at a public university for obtaining a decree a degree

This type of leftist zero tolerance policy is in place at far too many universities and it must stop

Jennifer's only crime was to have the beliefs that she does Keaton 24 is pursuing her master's degree in counseling at Augusta State After her professors learned of her biblical beliefs specifically and you know where this is going specifically our views on homosexual conduct

From both classroom discussions and private conversations of the students the school imposed the re -education plan

Keaton never denigrate anyone in communicating her beliefs But merely stayed factually what they were in appropriate context the plan assails

Keaton's beliefs as inconsistent with the counseling profession And expresses suspicion over Jen's ability to be multicultural e competent counselor

Particularly with regard to working with gay lesbian bisexual transgendered and queer questioning

GLBTQ populations and quote Now listen to this the plan requires her to take steps to change her beliefs

Through additional assignments and additional Diversity sensitivity training it also orders her to work to increase exposure and interactions with gay populations one such activity

Could be attending the gay pride parade in Augusta each month

Keaton is required to complete a report on how the remediation assignments have influenced her beliefs so the faculty can decide the appropriateness of her continuation in the counseling program

The plan concludes by noting that failure to complete all elements of the remedial plan will result in dismissal from the counselor education program

So ADF has filed the complaint motion for preliminary injunction etc etc and We will see what happens with that the the left

Hates the gospel and the left does not want a multicultural Pluralistic society they want their views and their views only to have freedom of speech

Authors must be suppressed and must be on the way with that is the left we learned that in the

Barry Lynn situation folks in 2001 when you debate a man who had testified before Congress that child pornography was a

First Amendment right and Then he attempts to use the law to suppress the publicly made videotapes that he knew were being made of an embarrassing debate

That he loses on the same subject well That's when

I learned right up close and personal that free speech is only for the leftists.

It's not for anybody else very very interesting second thing that we need to address before we get back to our topic today is

The Veritas Evangelical Seminary statement regarding dr. Eric and Kenner I'm I missed this my my channel rats and Twitter partners

Failed me on this one. Nobody nobody directed me this direction, so I just discovered it yesterday

Right at the same time I was watching The video from which I made the montage of video clips that I posted last evening

Which is nothing but classic Kenner? Post 9 -11 classic post 9 -11

Kenner it is a mythology. He created. It's purposeful, but it is a mythology and You know each one would have a little additional thing you know he this was the most

I had heard him talk about his multiple Why his dad's multiple wives? Calling his dad a polygamist the

Abraham lie where you identify these other wives as sisters So you can get them into the into the country

The whole nine yards that was the most I had heard of of that one And I imagine if if more people you know most of us have regular lives so we don't do this all the time, but I Imagine if if if more people dug into more video and more audio.

It's out there We get even wilder stuff It's out there Once arrogant got into this into the myth -making zone

He just couldn't hold back. He I guess he loved to watch people just hanging on his every word and So that's what he did

So anyway July 1st this was posted Thank you for your inquiry regarding dr.

Aaron Cantor. I bet you they've been getting a few as far as VES That's Veritas evangelical seminary is concerned

Our policy regarding adjunct professors to debase any disciplinary decision on the professor's homeschool investigation conclusions on moral and or theological matters such as these

Liberty University is conducting an exhaustive independent investigation of these charges and as and issued their conclusions in a

June 29th 2010 statement as follows And they give the statement once again, that's just as bogus as the day is long

Liberty did not do an independent investigation. I mean, it's just absurd

How can you say liberty? I mean that would be like saying that You know the

Justice Department does an independent investigation of one of its own baloney that there wasn't any outside organization that did this investigation wasn't

Either exhaustive nor independent and there everybody knows it

Say things like this what it makes any rational person just check. Oh, you know That's just that that's silly, you know, that'd be like BP putting out a statement that we

Investigated this and it was an exhaustive independent investigation who did the investigation BP did but it's independent.

That's good I love it. Anyway, then we have this statement after the Now it's interesting.

I am noticing here. Dr Cantor will remain on the faculty of Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary as a professor, but he's not teaching

The latest information I have right now is that he's not teaching he's not listed for any classes

Now that may change. Maybe they're gonna have him do something special this year You know do a whole series on being the real you

I Don't know but Then it says here's the

VES statement since dr. Cantor's conversion testimony was validated. Really? Really?

I can't even get past that it was validated. Well He he was a

Muslim we became a Christian well, you know what no other than other than Muhammad Khan And maybe one of the first I can think of that's not been the issue

The question has been the whole Mythology and you catch the new the new element of the mythology in the video that I put up yesterday

That his madrasa now we had a madrasa at one point. I'm pretty certain in Turkey, but now

In this one the September 22nd 2006 So this is only a few weeks.

This was less than a month before we were supposed to be having our debate at Liberty University, that's what made it somewhat interesting to listen to because this was less than a month out

There's supposed to be October 16th as I recall. So this was September 22nd Southern California at an

Assemblies of God Church He makes the claim that his madrasa that he trained in a madrasa in Beirut Beirut Lebanon, so now we have to come up with evidence that Ergen Kanner citizen of Ohio Going to school and in in,

Ohio a Buckeye, I know there's lots of Buckeyes training in madrasas in Beirut.

Oh You have to laugh anymore because just so sad that so many people are absolutely falling on their swords this man

When anybody could just look at the facts and go Excuse me, but did you notice a little something about this?

Since Dr. Kanner's conversion testimony was validated Not about living in Turkey and not about speaking in broken

English at his conversion and All the rest that stuff that wasn't validated actually

But well, you know, he was a Muslim and became a Christian He was not charged with any legal moral malintent or theological heresy

So lying about all this stuff is a moral issue Only misstatements common to all speakers for which he has apologized

VES will be retaining. Dr. Kanner is a valued adjunct faculty member and regular speaker at VES conferences in light of these findings

VES considers. Dr. Kanner exonerated from all Charges When when you have entire evangelical seminaries

Doing the ostrich thing publicly in print to be forever seen all for political reasons you just You just yeah, you want to beat your head on the on on a wall to feel better It's just Yeah, someone and someone in channel just said how could you misspeak about Beirut I was true is there

Beirut, Ohio You know,

I'd like to think that some of these people are just so completely ignorant of the facts they they refuse

To look at the facts. They refuse to listen to the videos They won't look at the documentation.

They won't even click on a link to to read stuff on a website. Maybe Maybe we could say that for some of them

But the fact the matter is folks this is just willful ignorance just willful ignorance

When VES when Veritas, you know the very name Veritas when truth evangelical seminary remember

Here and squirrel gave us this one Remember that the

Russian word for truth is Pravda Now anybody that remembers

Pravda Is now making a direct connection to Pravda evangelical seminary

Because Pravda you're too young to remember this rookies on the board today and Those of us who lived during the

Cold War Pravda was the primary organ of the Communist Party in Russia So Pravda would be the the the rag that would tell you

You know after the Russians had just totally screwed up a space launch that it was a glorious thing and all was successful Okay, that's

Pravda so Now we have the Pravda evangelical seminary

Telling us dr. Cantor was exonerated from all charges, which is why he is no longer team in the seminary and not teaching

I I I Am left Speechless and dumbfounded by the ability of people

To abuse the English language and to just ignore the facts that are right before them absolutely positively amazing

So true at Pravda is truth in Polish too. Well, that's interesting. I had no I earthy idea, but that's interesting as As more information comes light and it will folks you just you just got to realize it will the

Internet's a big place and When you stand in front of audiences from from any time from 2001 onward

With that microphone in your hand, it's being recorded and Once it gets on the net it never goes away

You just can't do damage control. Oh, I know they're going around the net They're trying to pull stuff down the very fact they're doing so tells you what the real story here is

When one side is having to ransack the net trying to find stuff to pull down Get rid of it hide it.

That's why I call this a massive evangelical cover -up. That's what it is It's a massive evangelical cover -up

Absolutely amazing Absolutely amazing Now mutato and channel just said truth in German is bratwurst and that is not true

That's it. That's it. That's it. Mr. Eastish name Truth in Norwegian is ludicrous.

Well, that's that that might be the food of truth, but That may be the way you prove you are

Norwegian is by eating it By eating ludicrous, but It does not

That's not the word for truth. No doesn't work that way Well, anyway, I had to address that because I don't

I don't know what else to say. I mean you just I Mean Veritas puts out it keeps doing these discernment conferences

May I suggest they stop doing discernment conferences until they figure out what discernment is

I've made this point before I'll keep making again. We have significantly more documentation in the form of obviously in the form of video and audio recordings and in legal documentation

Regarding the lies of Eric and Cantor then we have about the lies of Joseph Smith So why do they condemn

Joseph Smith? Why weren't these just misstatements of Joseph Smith about the first vision?

Well because he was a heretic and Eric and Cantor says true things may I suggest you it's There's can make an argument that it's more dangerous

To be a non heretic liar than a heretical one Because I've said many times most offensive things

I've listened to in regards to Eric and Cantor is when he joins his myth -making with the gospel and He almost always does the lies about Shabir Ali when he

You know what? He was doing if you listen to the sound clip carefully. He was talking about the

Atonement and He was talking about the necessity of the Atonement what he was saying about the necessity the tome was important and it's true and then he couches it in the in the poisonous atmosphere and soup of lies and Evidently, that's okay because that's theological leverage as Elmer Townes put it

I Amazing stuff amazing stuff I Just I I don't know what to say, but I posted earlier today an article

Someone in channel just said Joseph Smith trained in Beirut. Well, okay, there's the connection we got figured out now

Joseph Smith trained in Beirut and Oh Yeah, you do you do have to laugh a little bit given, you know how much

Nastiness has been sent my direction. There are a few things. I don't think there's anything I've done in my ministry that has resulted in more personal nastiness from people who call themselves

Christians than to simply sit here and say, excuse me folks, we've got a liar in the flock and He's refusing to repent and now

I'm having to go and we got a bunch of other folks Who don't care he's a liar and are helping him to continue to not repent

And if you do that You're out man you

You're a bad man bad man Can't can't allow that to happen. So two very interesting things right off the top there the

Pravda evangelical seminary And then further evidence of the fact that our society is growing evermore

Well like Europe and there's a lot of people who like that Christian beliefs you better keep them to yourself.

Do not allow them to impact your worldview and your actions

That's what we're being told there Amazing stuff on both ends

Amazing stuff in both ends. All right now We were listening to the encounter the initial encounter.

I guess there has been another I haven't listened to it and And someone who said that there had been a third encounter between Matt slick and Roberts and Jenna said that it sounded like at the end they

Were gonna have a fourth. Well, I'm not gonna do a regular Review of the

Matt slick Bob's and Jenna's show if that's going to become a regular part of Matt slick's program

Well, okay that's totally up to him, but I Am going to deal with the rest of this encounter and I did want to deal with In the second encounter the second counter didn't get recorded, right?

there were places where all sudden it would drop out and and the Janet Mefford show would come in or Something else there's something going on with her.

I don't know. I couldn't figure it out There wasn't I could do about so it wouldn't be worth going through the whole thing Especially at the beginning the context would be hard to follow but there was one section

That the material on James 2 and there was one other section in regards to Romans 4 that really need to be dealt with and I will deal with those and Maybe someone might convince me to bother to listen to whatever comes afterwards

And if there's if it's if it could be edifying if would be useful to the Saints Fine, then

I'll I'll do it But I've got these debates coming up in August Gonna be in let's see.

What's today's 22nd. So next Two weeks two weeks from today,

I guess it's two weeks from today is when I leave I'll have to look at my off look at my calendar didn't bring it in here with me, but I Head to New York for the first first week in August back for less than just a few days

Then go to Detroit for six days. I'll be doing a bunch of recording for the Aramaic Broadcasting Network gonna be doing

Jesus or Muhammad live and so I hope you all will get a chance to watch that and the folks at ABN are very nice to Give me that stuff.

You know what? I just realized I haven't gotten the shake of wall debate I need to write to them say hey, we need the shake of wall debate.

We need to get that thing up and And then a very home for a few days and then back to New York for a debate with Chris Ferrara Let me just mentioned.

I did mention this in a blog article a couple days ago. I was supposed to debate father

Peter Stravinsky's When we forwarded the standard information about videotaping

To Peter Stravinsky's he said unacceptable no need for discussion. We took that as a complete forget it

I'm not interested in the debate Just this afternoon got word. He's asking. Well, where are we with the debate and we've already gotten somebody else to the debate and Just to understand what what

Pierce Ravinskis is demanding is that he gets to choose What goes on YouTube and what doesn't he has final veto, right?

And I'm like, um, no you get an unedited master and you can do with it what you want and we get an unedited master and we can do with it what we want and If you don't like we do with it

Then if you think somehow we're messing it up or we're editing you're changing it You have the unedited master you can put it up and make us look like the idiots

We would be for doing something that's stupid what we've done this with everybody and This is the first time we've had anybody

Actually have the audacious idea to demand that we get final say

I Determine what you can and cannot post on YouTube, which would mean nothing.

We get posted on YouTube, obviously so That's what derailed that so, you know,

I don't know what's gonna happen that I just wrote back to Peter Stravinsky's and I said look

Here's the facts We posted three clips from the debate One was I think seven some -odd minutes ones eight odd minutes

One is one minute and 42 seconds the one minute and 42 second one is an entire audience question

It starts with the guy at the mic He says his question Stravinsky's answers

I answer and it cuts before you go to the next question It gave the entirety of the thing there is the idea that any of it is out of context is absurd on its face and We have made the

Stravinsky's debate. I mean Algo and channel. We've got a guy in channel who has the entire Stravinsky's debate memorized in Polish Did you know that?

most people don't know that about Algo I Mean, it's obvious that he has almost every one of my debates memorized in English, but that was not enough for Algo Algo had to memorize the entire

Stravinsky and you should hear Algo's impersonation of Stravinsky's in Polish.

It is classic. It's just incredible. The man's the man's amazing I'm on Zyrtec so I I'm fighting a one of those 36 48 -hour

Sinus things and so I'm on Zyrtec. So I can I can just say whatever I'll go the man the myth.

Yeah Anyhow better than better than crying

I guess so That's the last week in August Excuse me,

I didn't get to the cough drop fast enough Cuz see I've guys coughed up here and I can just and I just disappear and I and then come back and it's sort of fun

That way I can cough without doing that in your ear then we go back to the end of August and we have the

Chris Farrar debate on the Immaculate conception sinlessness of Mary and then the debate with mr.

Silver and on atheism, which I think it's gonna be pretty weird because We kept the same topic as we're gonna have with Christopher Hitchens but the only reason that we had chosen that topic was

Christopher Hitchens was to get Christopher Hitchens to finally deal with something biblical and the

American atheists are An interesting group. I've started listening to some of Mr.

Silverman stuff and let's just say I haven't changed a whole lot since I first ran into them in the 1980s and It's gonna be a barn burner.

I'm sure so but you know, that's life. That's actually could put me right at That might be like debate number 100

I need to go through them all again And you know, it all depends on how you count debates and stuff like that as to which one's which and blah blah blah blah but Because I was pretty certain that the price debate which will be available soon the

DVD is finished We're shooting for an August 1st date on that The because we were co -releasing it was

CRI at the same time so we're shooting for that we really really are My thought was that was the 96th

I had done so with the shake of all debate and these debates and stuff like that We should be right around 1100 for that which which is an amazing thing.

That's not When that phone ring phone rang in our little offices our little rundown offices in 1990 over on Camelback Road, and it was

Jerry Matitix of Catholic answers calling Challenging me to do a debate in light of my book the fatal flaw which had just come out from crown publications

Little did anybody know What that was going to? Result is not that I hadn't been doing stuff similar to that I've been on I mean

I did a lot of people on people Especially people over in LA would know about Tom Likas Tom Likas is a shock jock over there and He was in Phoenix for years and I was on the

Tom Likas show I think 12 times and in fact when I was talking about the American atheist I was on with the representative the national representative of the

American atheist Brian Lynch who? Was that scary that was one of the scariest radio encounters

I've ever had I'll tell you this story then we'll then the the break will come up We'll go ahead and do the break today because you know my science is because you could use that Let me tell you let me tell it's it's story time with with James here

Um, I had heard Brian Lynch on with with Tom Likas.

He had been on with some other Christian ministers and just the most vile nasty aggressive in -your -face

Man that you could ever imagine just insulting. Why don't you Christians go live on an island someplace?

You people are morons. I mean just oh wow so when

Likas is Producer contacted me and said would you be on with?

Brian Lynch I was like man wrap myself in asbestos and and get ready for the battle but I thought every other time he had been on by phone and so I get in the studio and Tom says well, he should be here pretty soon.

So I'm like, oh, no, he's gonna be in in studio So the door opens up and I'm expecting a fire -breathing six foot seven 350 pound

Mass murderer to walk into the studio in walks a guy Rookie, he would not be in your weight class in a wrestling match

He'd be below you Okay He's about I Don't know.

He's short. He's skinny. He's tiny if you soaked him, he might make a hundred pounds and He is

Milktoast hi The wonderful day we have here Boy your weather here is interesting, you know,

I mean just this is a nice studio I'm just I'm just like no

Way, this is not the guy that I've heard on before there. No, this is not possible and then the microphone turned on and Folks if this wasn't one of the first instances

I've seen of demonization The person sitting behind the microphone was completely different than the person before the microphone turned on he's violently aggressive nasty just everything

I had heard before and Then as soon as the microphone would turn off for the commercial break.

It's like These lights in here are very interesting Just come complete personality

Difference just just to complete. It was like a it was like multiple personality disorder

Really was he has his Personality on the air and then

Only you're not your shirt looks nice on you today, but when the things I'm just like whoa,

I Was only this was I was probably 21 maybe When this happened,

I think somewhere around that that age I forget now, but It's like whoa

Okay, all right, there you go, there's there's the American atheist for you it was it was weird

I don't know if he's still around. I haven't I haven't you know done the Google thing But anyways, let's go ahead and take our our break and then we will come back and we'll dive into the syngenous

Discussion from last time right back Public crimes the criminal mishandling of God's Word.

Maybe James White's most provocative book yet White sets out to examine numerous crimes being committed in pulpits throughout our land every week as he seeks to leave no stone unturned

Based firmly upon the bedrock of Scripture one crime after another is laid bare for all to see The pulpit is to be a place where God speaks from his

Word. What has happened to this sacred duty in our day? The charges are as follows prostitution using the gospel for financial gain pandering to pluralism cowardice under fire felonious eisegesis entertainment without a license and Cross -dressing ignoring

God's ordinance regarding the roles of men and women is a public crime occurring in your town Get pulpit crimes in the bookstore at a omen org

More than any time in the past Roman Catholics and evangelicals are working together They are standing shoulder -to -shoulder against social evils

They are joining across denominational boundaries in renewal movements and many

Evangelicals are finding the history tradition and grandeur of the Roman Catholic Church appealing

This newfound rapport has caused many evangelical leaders and laypeople to question the age -old disagreements that have divided

Protestants and Catholics Aren't we all saying the same thing in a different language? James White's book the

Roman Catholic controversy is an absorbing look at current views of tradition in Scripture the papacy the mass purgatory and indulgences and Marian doctrine

James White points out the crucial differences that remain regarding the Christian life and the heart of the gospel itself.

They cannot be ignored Order your copy of the Roman Catholic controversy by going to our website at a omen org.

Hello everyone. This is Rich Pierce In a day and age where the gospel is being twisted into a man -centered self -help program

The need for a no -nonsense presentation of the gospel has never been greater I am convinced that a great many go to church every

Sunday yet. They have never been confronted with their sin Alpha Omega Ministries is dedicated to presenting the gospel in a clear and concise manner making no excuses

Man is sinful and God is holy That sinful man is in need of a perfect Savior and Jesus Christ is that perfect Savior We are to come before the

Holy God with an empty hand of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ Alpha and Omega takes that message to every group that we deal with while equipping the body of Christ as well

Support Alpha Omega Ministries and help us to reach even more with the pure message of God's glorious grace

Thank you. This portion of the dividing line has been made possible by the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church The Apostle Paul spoke of the importance of solemnly testifying of the gospel of the grace of God The proclamation of God's truth is the most important element of his worship in his church

The elders and people of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church invite you to worship with them this coming

Lord's Day The morning Bible study begins at 9 30 a .m. And the worship service is at 10 45

Evening services are at 6 30 p .m. On Sunday and the Wednesday night prayer meeting is at 7

The Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church is located at 3805 North 12th Street in Phoenix You can call for further information at 602 -26 grace

If you're unable to attend you can still participate with your computer and real audio at prbc .org

Where the ministry extends around the world through the archives of sermons and Bible study lessons available 24 hours a day

All righty, let's get back to the discussion between Matt slick and Robertson Janice we were for those of you who are following along 19 minutes and 27 seconds into the file.

I'm actually at 1916 So we're gonna have to suffer through nine seconds that we already listened to before.

I hope we can survive But that's just the way it is let's pick it back up Was Paul teaching oral oral teaching to our oral inspired teaching to the

Corinthians at this point in time Oral inspired I'm not sure you mean by oral inspired oral teaching that is inspired by the

Holy Spirit Now where he's going here For those of us who have been doing debates with the

Roman Catholics on the Zola Scriptura for many years It'd be text like 1st Thessalonians chapter 2 verse 13, and we also thank

God constantly for this That when you received the Word of God Which you heard from us you accepted it not as the

Word of men But for what it really is the Word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe

Now this Word of God would be the message of the gospel Because it talks about it performing its work in you who believe the

Roman Catholic use of this is that well that what that means is that The oral preaching of the

Apostles was the Word of God and It remained the Word of God, and that's what has been passed down to us through the

Episcopate of the church the problem of course is That while the oral preaching of the

Word of God by the Apostles preaching of the gospel itself It was truly the

Word of God where Matt really did not Accomplish what he needed to accomplish in this encounter

Was to challenge the assumption made by Roman Catholics that the

Content of What they call tradition is Identical with what the Apostles preached.

How do we know? What the Apostles preached I submit to you that the only way

We know what the Apostles preached is by what is recorded for us in the

New Testament There is nothing else as I point out before Well, actually

I'll take this back. I point this out on Matt's looks program The first reference to oral tradition that allegedly came from the

Apostles the first time we have anybody saying The Apostles taught me this Was when

Irenaeus Makes the claim in writing against the Gnostics That Jesus in essence recapitulated the the stages of man's life and So he wasn't 30 something when he died.

He was older than 50 when he died and Irenaeus claimed that this came from the

Apostles that this was an apostolic tradition now I don't know anybody who believes that today Roman Catholic Protestant, whoever

I don't anybody so There you have the earliest example and the earliest example we all

Don't think is actually apostolic if if Rome was consistent They would have to have dogmatized to believe that Jesus was over 50 years of age because it's the earliest apostolic tradition that we actually have and when you come to the specific topic of the bodily assumption of Mary There isn't even a question here even even

Juniper Carroll and other Mariologists Recognize that this is

Found only in the later period of church history the idea that and Remember, he's already

I think I'm trying to remember if I'm wrong about this he will but my recollection is he's already cited the text from 2nd

Thessalonians to hold faster traditions which were delivered them whether by word of mouth or by letter, so You and this is for everybody.

You can't let anybody whether it's Robertson chance or anybody else get away with misusing these texts and leaping from the idea that the

Apostles Faithfully preached the gospel which was the Word of God to the

Apostles taught things that are nowhere found in Scripture and have been passed down in some secret fashion and They can't even show you where these things came from historically and The first place we find them are in heretical documents

Gnostic Gospels or Gospels tinged by Gnosticism even if they weren't written by a Gnostic, etc, etc We can't you can't let them leap from that and you can't let them get away with citing 2nd

Thessalonians 2 15 without saying you need to hear what the text is saying You have to prove that Thessalonians had been taught these things if you're gonna use this text

Then what you're saying is the Apostle Paul had delivered to the Thessalonians all of these beliefs

Bodily assumption of Mary bodily assumption of Mary. How could they do that? She may not have been dead yet papal infallibility

Immaculate conception perpetual virginity all this stuff allegedly if you're gonna use it this way

Now see modern Roman Catholic scholarship realizes we can't prove that and that's why they've come up with these

Incredibly wonderfully nebulous definitions of tradition that just sort of you know, they're sort of like a lava lamp

You know, they just sort of blob around and if you try to push it a certain point

Just the blob just moves away and you know Stop that The rookies doing odd things out there

So they know that but you see the funny thing is the Catholic apologists are trying to defend these

Marian things Are conservatives and when you quote their scholars who tend to be liberals?

They are very quick to dismiss them as having been infected with modernism and so on so forth.

Well fine. There's I Reject liberal scholarship all the time, but at least

I have a consistent basis for doing so when you're Roman Catholic It's your own Pope that keeps making these people putting these people on papal biblical commissions

You got a problem there with your alleged Unanimity and all the rest of stuff. So that's where he's going.

He's he's going to text like this to say, ah see This was inspired but it's out what they're trying they have to try to find some way of proving something's inspired

It's the Word of God outside of Scripture That's what trying to do here. And of course the immediate challenges so you're saying that the bodily assumption of Mary was taught by the

Apostles to the Thessalonians and You can prove that to us you can trace this historically and The answer of course is no,

I can't do that You're not supposed to ask me questions like that, but that's very rarely. Unfortunately what they get challenged to do.

I Don't know. I'm assuming that the things that you were saying were authoritative But there's certain oral traditions or certain things that he said that were inspired at the

Holy Spirit I would have a problem. There's some things that Paul taught I would assume so Well, you need to be definite on this, you know, if you don't you're not definite on this then you're disagreeing with Scripture No, I would just that Paul taught by oral inspiration of the

Holy Spirit. He got a verse for that Yeah, first it first Thessalonians 2 13 first Thessalonians 2 13.

Okay. Yes about tradition that we laid that we gave to you. Yeah Yeah Read it.

Well, it says this and for this reason We also constantly thank God that when you receive from us the Word of God's message you accepted it not as word of men

But for what it really was a word of God Yeah, okay. It's the Word of God teaching them orally and it's the

Word of God. So Paul Paul did that Yeah, okay, and Paul's the one who wrote 1st Corinthians 4 6.

Yes, he did Okay, so if Paul is telling them that not to go beyond what is written in 1st

Corinthians 4 6 Well, then how can he be teaching them oral teaching that's inspired by the Holy Spirit also easy

Because the oral tradition anything that Paul would say orally was certainly not contradict the written word

So it's okay for them Now while Matt is right about that, that's not an answer to st.

Genesis question Because what what has to be done here what Matt did not do is He did not challenge the identification

That is implicit in st. Genesis argument. It's it's explicit in the debates

That I've done and Eric Svensson did and with with Rome's leading apologists for decades now

Very clearly laid out in David King and Bill Webster's work

Holy Scripture the pillar ground fit that all of this is discussed in full in in that material but to challenge the

Assumptions being made that there is there's a an equal sign between what the apostles taught orally

Which implicit assumption number one which he just did challenge is differs from what's in Scripture implicit assumption number two is

It is passed down by some other mechanism Historically through the

Episcopate of the church and forms the basis of these these doctrines and dogmas that Rome then

Magically creates a thousand years later or more even longer than that in some instances

That's what has to be challenged It's just it's fundamental basic You just trapped yourself

No I didn't you did because you're saying that you really don't believe in solo script or as long as the teaching

That's inspired by the Holy Spirit doesn't contradict Scripture. That's why I asked you what solo scriptural was.

So, how can you believe in? Scripture as a final authority if you still believe oral teaching by the

Holy Spirit Now catch that because again, this is where people this is where Christians get caught by these guys.

These guys are They're devious, I'm gonna be honest about I've been listening to a bunch of my old debates and I have been

Amazed at the deceptive character primarily over the past few days of gerrymantics I did a

I did a long ride on Monday in the dark To ride long distances in Arizona right now you guys are really early and So I was listening to an over the over three hour debate that I did with Jerry on the

Marian dogmas from back in 1996 and I Once again, and especially when you have some distance now and a lot more experience under your belt

It is amazing the number of times that Jerry would specifically form his statements to deceive the audience

It's the only way I can put it it's not It wasn't that. Oh, he did a really good job in making points.

By the way, he said things I try to do that No, it was it was deceptive.

It was absolutely deceptive You won't find a lexicon that says such -and -so when you're talking about something that lexicons don't even define

Prostate lexicons agree with me when in fact they didn't and it was just it was deceptive and So you've got to recognize these things and and catch these things for example

One of the the common arguments that Roman Catholics use it for some reason

Protestants struggle to catch this What must be the case

What must be the conditions for solo scriptura to be true and functional at any given time?

you have to have a Scriptura, I mean if the scripture is being given

Then the whole question is moot Because you don't have a scriptura to be the standard because it is currently being revealed so It would be absurd to say that Moses functioned on the basis of solo scriptura

Why because he's receiving revelation It's a period of inscripturation

Now the question immediately has to be asked do we live in an age of?

Inscripturation where scriptures being given or do we live in an age after that? Well even

Rome agrees Even with her doctrine of tradition Rome agrees That scripture was given long ago and scriptures not being given today

But for this brief moment Catholic apologists Hoping you don't catch this hoping you don't think through it hoping you don't see that they're pulling the wool over your eyes

Try to transport you back Into the period of time of inscripturation and say well a soul scriptura isn't true then then it's never true

You see the the flaws in the argument here you see The question we have today sitting 2 ,000 years after the

Christ event is What has God given to us that is inspired and certain?

How can we hear the voice of God and Rome says well scripture and tradition we say

Scripture and scripture alone is the honest acid is God breathed now

We don't live in a day where scripture is being given and Therefore we can refer to a scriptura a given standard that God has superintended just as he gave the

Old Testament superintended its collection and Jesus Christ held men accountable

For what was contained therein same thing happens with the

New Testament, okay? So with that in mind

Listen to the exchange and see where st. Genesis missed the boat still valid today

I didn't say it was still valid today. Well. When did it stop see you keep cats that did you catch that?

I'm sorry. I'm sorry We've got to look at this and for some reason I can't see Where am

I oh there it is? I'm gonna back this up just a little bit then we got a phone caller I'll try to get to the phone call if I can let's let's listen to this again valid today

Well, when did it stop see you keep putting words into my mouth? When did it stop? Oh, I don't know when it stopped, but I do know it's not going back for me here

Let's try it one more time you keep putting words into my Let's try it there.

I asked you what sola scriptura was so how can you believe in? Scripture as a final authority if you still believe oral teaching by the

Holy Spirit is still valid today I didn't say it was still valid today. Well, when did it stop see you keep putting words into my mouth?

When did it stop? Oh, I don't know when it stopped, but I'd there you go That's that's where the challenge has to be made.

It's not a matter of when it stopped It is putting the burden on the right person.

He's claiming that there is inspired revelation outside of the scriptures

That's what's in Genesis claiming that's what you got a challenge You gotta say wait a minute.

So you're telling me what 1st Thessalonians 2 13 says is That Paul had taught these things the

Thessalonians It's inspired revelation and it's continued down to this day and that's where we get the bodily assumption of Mary Is that what you're saying so you can demonstrate this historically, right?

and Then you can of course say then why did father Mitchell Pacwa tell me when I asked him the question in 1999 Name me one word

That Jesus the Apostle said that the Roman Catholic Church has defined infallibly that exists outside of Scripture and he said haven't

So you see there's a massive assumption being made on some Genesis part here and yet in the vast majority of instances people let him get it they

Gets away with it gets away with it because we haven't thought through the relationship of the oral preaching of that time

Formation of Scripture the giving of Scripture. What is they honest us what is not they honest us and please note something

They make the assumption that sense word of God is used here. That means it was they honest us

But what basis they have for that because what is they honest us according to Paul is the graph a it's the written

The message of God the Word of the Cross all those things Yes, but did God intend every bit of oral preaching of the

Apostles to be continued down to our day? The answer clearly is no And we lost our phone call so That's it.

Is it is it's gone, right? Okay, I guess it is. That's all right. No worries. We're right toward the end of the end of the program

Sort of yeah, maybe It is That's true

And it would have been hard for me to address that particular text because there's a whole lot of discussion needs to be made of it Excellent book by Don The question was on First is second

Corinthians 4 -4 second Corinthians 4 -4 Look up Don Hartley's excellent book on that subject.

I think he will give you and in fact just go to the blog because I've mentioned It and oh, he's not even listening now.

Well, he'll listen by archive, I guess A Little bit of an interruption there and we just press on with the discussion

I do not believe it continued after the Apostles. I'm going to say it it stopped with the Apostles.

I don't believe in this this Sequence supposedly for the Roman Catholic authoritative system down through the

Apostles. I don't believe that for a second We're not gonna find it in Scripture. No, we're talking about 1st Corinthians 4 6 Well, actually we are talking about that because the whole reason that st.

Genes is pushing this Is to establish Roman Catholic traditional authority because remember he's the one

I keep saying I don't have to give a verse I don't have to give a verse and We're coming up here in just a few moments to one of the one of those things that there are a couple things that really get my juices flowing and get me upset and Hopefully we don't get to it before the end of the program because I don't have to end the program being upset

I don't want to be end of the program being upset one in the program being happy But he's gonna make the

Roman Catholic argument that we gave you the Trinity the church gave the

Trinity Bible didn't and It just I that I consider that blasphemous

Against the triune God and against clarity of his revelation. It is it is so offensive to me

That is it really is hard for me to control my emotions at that point

When when Catholic apologists blaspheme the Trinity blaspheme the Bible by comparing that divine truth with the man -made absurdities

That they have defined regarding Mary it just Bothers me, but we're just about to get to that so No, I didn't say that I said you're not to exceed what's written

I trapped you and you fell into it No, so the scriptura means I'll say it again, so we're arguing the right point

Oh, it's solo scriptura taught in 1st Corinthians 4 6 defines what you mean by foot solo scriptura

We'll use your words. You said it's the final authority. Yes Okay.

Now, where does Paul say that scripture is the final authority you want those words the final authority?

Yeah, come on. You're better than that. No, you're better than that. No, you are you keep doing this look

Let me tell you something man I've talked to cultists left and right for 30 years and what they do is what you do

Redo the question and insert words into the sentence that I don't say and then say now you're gonna you can agree with it or Not don't play the game with me.

You know, that's not what it says, you know It doesn't say exactly those words what you're redoing what you're doing is rearranging the sentence to make it say what

I never said I'm not gonna play that game. You're better than that use the word final authority in contrast to my word only

I'm asking it where the Bible use of the word finally, you don't have a verse for that No, we don't have the word of the

Bible that use the word Trinity either We don't have the Bible to use in the word Trinity either or huh?

You see it's it's it's Matt that brought this up, unfortunately But this wasn't the most useful part of exchange because I really don't

I didn't see this as overly necessary I don't think some Janice was trying to put any words in his mouth

So Janice was basically trying to say look if you're saying that text teaches sola scriptura

Then please explain how the Apostle Paul could be giving inspired oral revelation

While at the same time he's saying don't go beyond what is written. That's a fair question. I think it's a fair question

I think you've already answered it is it's assuming that the Word of God that was delivered was meant to be scripture, which it's not and That's why

I've never used that text in Corinthians as a proof text for sola scriptura in the first place I just don't think it's nearly it you're missing the point when you go there the point of sola scriptura is

That there is only one body of the Anu stas God breathe revelation and it's the

New Testament and nothing else That's what sola scriptura is about you need to argue that point from the text of scripture itself and Then demonstrate its reality in history as well

So I did manage to hold off going to where he says we got this from the church the Council of Ephesus Until next time if we don't have anything else to be talking about, but we will continue on Thanks for listening to the vying line today

Lord willing Not supposed to be anywhere next week so At least

I don't think I'm supposed to be anywhere next week. I don't know I don't I'm not supposed to be anywhere on Tuesday.

It's let's put it that way So Lord willing we'll see you on Tuesday regular Tuesday. Not not the

Monday. We did this with regular Tuesday next week See you then The dividing line has been brought to you by Alpha and Omega ministries

If you'd like to contact us call us at 602 9 7 3 4 6 0 2 or write us at p .o

Box 3 7 1 0 6 Phoenix, Arizona 8 5 0 6 9 You can also find us on the world wide web at a omen org

That's a o m i n dot o RG where you'll find a complete listing of James White's books tapes debates and tracks