Is VBS a waste of time?

They don't have any spiritual conversations. They don't have family devotions. They don't teach their kids the bible They're not, you know trying to catechize their kids.

They're not trying to help them memorize scripture. None of that, right? so they they they have basically handed that all off to the church and then this is just this becomes like The token like in their mind like that i'm doing okay as a parent you see i'm saying

Like uh, like if if I can just like they latch on to things like this You know if the if my kid likes going to the youth group then that means like Something good is going to happen.

They're probably a christian, right? So they're hanging all their hope on the fact that their kid enjoys being entertained at the youth group

If their kid likes going to vbs is like well Maybe that'll rub off on them a little bit or something like that while I completely abdicate my responsibility as a parent

So I mean to the extent to which parents are looking at vbs like that They're looking at it like their only hope for the salvation of their child the spiritual well -being of their child

And there are plenty of do that man. I mean i'm not exaggerating like you you would think you think this is hyperbole. It's not

Um, but that that just reflects like an absolute failure on the part of their parents Morning, the following message may be offensive to some audiences

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Welcome to bible bash where we aim to equip the saints for the works of ministry by answering the questions

You're not allowed to ask. We're your host harrison kerrigan pastor tim mullet and today we'll answer the age -old question

Is vbs a waste of time? Now tim vbs at least where we live.

It's a really popular thing. I mean, it's pretty much like a If your church wants to be relevant at all, you need to have some form of vbs.

Isn't that right? Yeah, I mean I was gonna say is it's it's basically almost mandatory for many people

So like are like are you even a church if you don't have vbs? Yeah. Yeah. Are you even a church if you don't have vbs and if you don't have vbs then you know should

Will you go to a different church, you know, so for some people it really is about that significant

Right, but but so vbs is it I mean has it been around for An extremely long time or is it a relatively new thing in terms of church history?

I mean, it's definitely a relatively new thing for church history This isn't you know something that martin luther invented or something along those lines.

So Oh weird, I thought well, I didn't think it was martin luther. I thought it was probably calvin calvin calvin introduced

Yeah, this didn't go This is a new thing, yep okay, so so it's a relatively new thing going on and and you know vbs it's essentially a week that's that's a church dedicates to you know, having a bunch of children come and They play a bunch of games.

They do story times. They um, you know, they have certain bible lessons that they're learning along the way

And it's typically themed around some some biblical idea, um

You know, there's a ton of songs and dancing involved. Yeah, hopefully it's centered around some sort of biblical idea um, but then the question but then the question is is that a worthwhile endeavor for a church or you know, is it

Is it just something that ends up being a waste of time or even potentially is it wrong to for a church to?

uh to invest in vbs and dedicate the resources they do to it, yeah,

I mean I I think on the face of it. It seems like a Good idea, right?

So I mean When you think about the idea like the idea of a church inviting children to come to the church in order to You know quote unquote evangelize them.

I mean that certainly seems like it's a good idea at least the heart behind the thing is Seems to be in the right kind of place.

I mean when you think about what's actually happening in practice then You may be somewhat more cynical or skeptical of you know, how that goal is executed at times so like I mean my experience of vbs has always been you go to you you know, you it's mostly just parents

Sending their kids to A church in order to largely be an entertained, you know

So most of it is free babysitting for the parents and entertainment for the kids, right? So most of it's like fun and game entertainment

Um Free babysitting, you know, so that's a plus where the parents can get a break and all that and then

There's typically some kind of emotionally charged Revivalistic kind of altar call moment that is

Happening at the end and then whatever teaching is being You know sprinkled in In the main,

I mean most of that is like stuff you're going to be getting from lifeway or something along those lines so this is a it's definitely like a money -making scheme for You know a lot of the big, you know

Organizations so to speak so a lot of them are doing the same kind of thing, you know Same kind of theme that they're getting from the same kind of sources that which are

I mean, you know Pretty questionable, you know a lot of the churches that I know who are doing vbs

And you look at what they're actually doing It's not wonderful, you know So I mean my

I've sent my kids to vbs before and they came back Just totally baffled at the kind of thing that they're being taught, you know, and that kind of was frustrating for me.

So so it's one of those things where I don't know that I uh Like if if my kids are seeing through all the theological problems about what they're learning

It is one of those things where as a parent you wonder well, do I really want my kids to be brainwashed by?

People who seem to know the bible less. Well, uh, do you have any examples of that?

Because that would be wonderful I I I plead the fifth On that one, but yeah, no,

I mean I I I think you know in in theory it it can be a good thing I mean, I think there's um

There's some churches that would do it more carefully than other churches are doing it.

Um, so you know, there's um Yeah, I think depending on what kind of church background you're coming from I mean

I think the churches that do the you know, quote unquote best vvs's are typically largely entertainment and you know

Bad theology, right To put it mildly and then you know heavy manipulative altar call kind of thing

So typically you have an altar call moment towards the end and then you get your parents get the parents to come, you know invite them to come and give out awards and stuff and Parade all the converts in front of them and see if you can get them, you know a foot in the door one time so maybe they'll come back or something along those lines, so a lot of it is that kind of thing like where um

I think If if you're doing it in a theologically sound kind of way and like you

I mean you're legitimately teaching the bible and um I I can imagine how it could be a helpful thing, you know

I'm suspicious of a lot of what's happening in a lot of places for sure um, but then there's a lot of downside too, so Yeah.

Yeah. So so what are in your mind? What are some of those downsides that come with vb?

I mean, I I guess you've mentioned the Hey, there's it seems like there's a lot of entertainment there, but then good entertainment

You know good quote unquote entertainment and then bad theology

I guess You know explain that some more and then what other what other potential downsides do you see with vbs in general?

Yeah I I don't think there's Uh When you're talking about something like entertainment when you're talking about something like entertainment,

I don't know that In the abstract it's

Like a negative thing or something along those lines like we're growing up I mean there are churches we went to that would have basketball night every you know, friday night or something like that and Like it was basketball and pizza and all that and we went to play basketball and pizza

So we got free food and you know as teenagers we like to eat, you know, and so Your parents can't keep you fed because you played sports all day long or whatever so you're

My whole teenage years. I was hungry and um, so if there was an opportunity to go and you play basketball with a bunch of people and Hang, you know hang out with a bunch of people and get free food

I mean that was a that was a plus but I mean we honestly we never went to those churches. Okay, so I mean, so there's a bunch of money that they were spending and a bunch of time

They were investing in order to get kids who were coming for I mean and we we were only coming to play basketball, right?

Like we have no we had no way to try and get heathens like you, huh? I mean we we went to play basketball meet girls or something like that, right?

So like there was no there was no um, Like whatever purpose they had for it

Like we knew they were going to have their five -minute bible study or whatever else And I mean we were professing christians at the time, but we weren't interested in the bible like the five -minute bible study thing we were interested in playing basketball and Meeting girls and eating free pizza, right?

So Like that's what it was, you know, so I mean, I think a lot of the things that churches do they they're

Advertised like this. I mean they're advertised In one way as if like this is just a chance to share the gospel like what could be wrong with that or whatever

But then when you think about what's actually happening and what the perspective the mindset of people who are coming to these things are

Like they're not coming to learn the bible, you know, the parents aren't sending them to learn the bible They're the parents are parents are sending them like um

Like the parents are sending them because they want to break right? And the kids are going because they want to have fun with their friends, you know

And that's what it is like and that's the pull for them So i'm not saying that there's like no good fruit that ever can come from these kinds of things but I mean i've been in the church world long enough to know that a lot of what happens in these kind of environments is that you have kids who are manipulated into making false conversions and so I mean

I think in to the extent to which You have like the revivalistic kind of framework that's added on to it

I mean it can be a real negative thing, right? But I mean, I think so I think a lot of it. Um, but I think a lot of it is

Just kind of a waste of time, you know, and like when you think about um The hours of of operation right that are happening and the expectations that Are put on people.

I mean like if you're a small church, you don't have Like the vacation bible school is during work time for most adults, right?

right, so Like if you don't have a ton of people and you don't have a ton of space

And you don't have a ton of resources then like this can be uh, just a money sink

It can be a time sink. It can almost be like an impossible expectation that's put on a church that you need to Like devote a week of your life to babysitting kids and entertaining kids largely and you you know

Do a few bible things in the midst of there Where I mean who's going to take off work to do this, right? who are your volunteers going to be like who are you going to get to do this because most of most adults at that point are going to be

At work, right? So, I mean largely, you know, maybe if you have a bunch of homeschooling moms then

Then what it is is a bunch of homeschooling moms and you know one pastor or one or two pastors or something like that right like uh

That are taking a week of their time in order to you know Do this do this thing it's going to cost a lot of money, right?

So like it just like a big resource sink like a lot of a lot of money, you know a lot of preparation a lot of I mean, it's just uh,

And then you know, maybe you get a bunch of like You have to get certain kinds of people who are able to volunteer like maybe like older women are able to volunteer maybe like really like old retired people are able to volunteer or you know some

Mothers are able to volunteer who have older kids or you know or something along those lines

So yeah, I mean you so it's just a big production requires a lot of resources a lot of time a lot of coordination

Um, and then there's all the I mean now nowadays there's all the liability issues that are associated with You know babysitting tons and tons of kids in like me too land and everything else.

So I mean there's just Yeah, I mean there's a lot of downsides. I mean things can go bad right with that too.

I mean like we're not in the You know the 80s or the 90s or something like that anymore where um

Where it was like wild and crazy, right Bunch of kids. I mean, I remember some of the church camps

I went to growing up where it's just like total free time, you know the whole time like a bunch of unsupervised kids

All over the place in the middle of nowhere, right? I mean, I don't think things were as like what you were living in as corrupt a society in general

I mean we you know as a kid we used to Drive around our bikes all over the neighborhood Yeah Like you didn't have to worry about like the robing uh packs of pit bulls and and you know everything else uh, but you know that I well you're living in a

Significant like a different time now where so many people like very young ages are being introduced to porn at this point, right?

and then you you like filled with hormones you put them all together and then you have to have a lot of supervision and You know, and it's not like so it's

Like it's it's definitely there's a lot more logistical Concerns about these kind of things too, you know

And then like so I mean you could have a huge church that's going to put on you know The spend thousands and thousands of dollars of god's resources

To put on this big, you know week -long party for kids or something And I mean there's a stewardship concern like is that really the best use of your money, right?

And then are you doing what you're advertising you're doing at that point, right? Like I mean, is this like really the best use of your money and your time?

Um, and then you know, like you imagine a bunch of small churches like well, we don't want to be like irrelevant irrelevant

You know as a church or something like that an embarrassment as a church so I guess we're gonna have to Figure out how to compete or whatever and you know

Maybe a couple of them go together and you know throw their own mini little parties or something like that But I mean it is I would certainly if if someone were to look at me and act as if You know your

Church is doing something wrong by not having a bbs. I would have some pretty strong words for them at that point so,

I mean, I think it's Like it's a permissible thing. It's largely a stewardship

Concern, you know, I can imagine certain scenarios where it could be done Well in and I mean,

I I imagine it could be really a big burden for you know, most small churches too so yeah,

I mean it's it's um it's Whatever it is It's not some expectation that god has put on churches in order to do you know in order to be faithful and to the extent to which if you're an individual who is like like Shaming your pastors or whatever, you know, like um rebuking your pastors or not

Caring about the loss because they don't put on a bbs and you've lost the plot at some point

For sure. So so at one point you mentioned uh, essentially a critique of vbs being you know, you're you're

Bringing in a bunch of kids and You know, you're having the altar call you're having short little bible devotionals or whatever, but then they're not really there for that they're there for the

Entertainment value and you know, you you use the example of you got you guys going to play basketball and You know, you're there for the sports and the free food and and the girls um pretty much uh, and but they do their their

Five minute devotional and it's just kind of in one ear out the other for you Or for people in general at least and so I guess the

I guess a question I have Related to that is what in your mind is the difference between something like a vbs or like the basketball night and People who would maybe like go door to door sharing the gospel where You're going door to door and you're sharing the gospel and Probably at least where we live, but probably in most places in the u .s.

I feel like this would be pretty accurate Probably like 95 of the people you're going to talk to maybe even maybe even more than that are it's essentially going to be a

You're going to share the gospel with them and they're going to immediately reject it. It's going to go in one ear out the other

They're going to tell you hey I'm already a christian You ask them things like oh cool.

Where do you go to church and they say nowhere? You know like just making it obvious that they're really not

Telling the truth, uh, and their actions are are speaking louder than their words. So That's another example of like a hey, here's a church.

Who's who's trying to uh share the gospel you know how successfully

I don't know but um If they're if they're having a similar uh response with their door -to -door

Gospel sharing is that different in your mind than doing something like a vbs or a basketball night where you're

Also having some sort of you know, like a bible devotional five -minute devotional or you're doing sporadic um bible teaching in the middle of a vps vbs or are those

Are those the same as doing the door -to -door gospel sharing where the majority of the people is they're going to?

It's going to be in one ear out the other or are those different in your mind? I mean, I think that anytime you actually share the gospel

That would be a good thing and I don't think you should be looking at it Like purely from the perspective of pragmatism, right?

So it doesn't just sure reduce to like is this a good investment? Does it work kind of thing, right?

So like if you were to share the gospel um Like if you just take the act of sharing the gospel

That's a good act and and you know We plant we water god gives to increase Where the fragrance of life to life to those who god is saving or the fragrance of death to death to those who?

Are perishing right? So like who's who's sufficient for these things? We can't god brings the increase all that right?

So sharing the gospel is a good thing. But now if you're comparing A free opportunity to share the gospel and an opportunity that costs, you know, two thousand dollars

Okay Yeah Then That two thousand dollars is a significant thing, you know, do you see them today?

You know that five thousand dollars or that ten thousand dollars It's you know, maybe some of these bigger churches are spending on you know, this production, you know, like that's those are

That's that's a different thing entirely, right? So um, there's any

I mean there's any number of ways a church can Be creative and share the gospel that don't cost two thousand five thousand ten thousand dollars, right?

like that's um So when when you're talking about an opportunity That may cost that much money then you may think to yourself

Well, are there better ways to steward god's money than that? Right?

Does that make sense? Yeah, like do we have that money in the bank? You know a lot of churches may not even have like it just it just may be a significant financial burden for them

To do all that, you know And and so then and what they're paying for is they're paying in order to entertain a bunch of kids at that point

Does that make sense? Yeah, so yeah, I mean like and if you don't, you know pay the entertainment tax

Then you don't get your opportunity or something like that, right? So, I mean, I think that just that brings different kinds of considerations

I mean so but even something like going door to door I think that's a wonderful thing that churches could do if they're actually going to share the gospel when they do it

But most of that is just like you're going door to door and just inviting inviting them to your church So, I mean you may not be even in those moments doing what you're

Like it may be false advertising you may not be doing what you're saying you're doing. Does that make sense? yeah, so I mean

I think there's any number of like like I yeah churches have a responsibility to share the gospel church members church members have a responsibility to share the gospel um church leaders should be leading their congregation to do that and then they should be asking well

What are? The ways that we're going to lead them to do that And that doesn't mean that the only time they're going to do that is when we're holding their hand

You know making them do it or something like that. But I mean, so I I do think that there are um as you're evaluating

Like is this like a church? Sponsored way we're going to encourage quote -unquote evangelism

There are questions like well, how much is it going to cost right? Like how much is it going to cost? Is it actually evangelism?

Is that what we're doing? Are we doing something else, right? And we're calling it evangelism because then everyone will support it and then number three is like is it the best?

um Like the most natural way to have a conversation with people that's that's going to be serious, right?

So I mean and what I mean by that is, um, not that you can produce the outcome or something but I mean like if you were

Church leaders like imagine like a scenario where as church leaders you're encouraging Your church members to walk into fast food restaurants and hold up the line

You know whether in the drive -thru or in the lobby or whatever having a gospel conversation with the people

They're ordering food from right? But I imagine that you might just make everyone mad at you Right or you know, you know the uh, the uh, the million dollar bill kind of you know things like is this a helpful

Method you're using or is this doing more harm than good? Are you just annoying people, you know?

When you tip when you tip waiters a bible verse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's like I so what are you leading them to do?

Is it a good I mean, I think there's some there's some um evangelistic means that More naturally lead to a helpful conversation than others, you know and and so and there's more there's there's certain means of evangelism that Um, I think are more faithful to the scripture than others, right?

And so yeah, a lot of that just depends on What what you're doing but yeah, so go back to your question again

Uh, well you I think you answered the question was essentially, um, you know when you when you think about something like door -to -door evangelism versus vbs where In both scenarios, you're probably getting a similar, you know number of people where Everything you're talking about related to the scriptures is just going in one ear and out the other for the people

They're not there for that Um, they want you out there. They often want you off your door and yeah

Yeah, they just want to they just want to get you gone because it's an awkward conversation there at home It's probably a saturday, you know, um when you're going you're a salesman.

Yep, right, right And so is there a difference in your mind, but then you're essentially saying well

Not everything's equal, especially when you consider the stewardship aspect of it um

You know whether it costs, you know a couple hundred bucks or a few thousand dollars to run a vbs

Well going door -to -door Is free normally at least Uh, I can't

I don't even know how you would spend money doing that I guess in gas or something Yeah, well a lot of times, you know, you're giving out um or handouts or something

And like church information so there may be some kind of cost associated but I mean it pales in comparison to the vbs kind of But yeah, so I mean is there a cost associated with this method that you're using is it like false advertising are you you know, are you

Delivering what you're promising, you know, are you calling something evangelism? That's very different than like what like what you're actually doing, right?

So yeah is most of what you're doing is a bunch of games and coloring and fun and whatever else and you know and uh

You know hurting around a bunch of kids. So what is it that you're actually doing and Yeah, I mean so I think that opportunities where you more naturally have a conversation are often

Better means and and I mean if nothing comes from it, you can say hey at least I directly shared the gospel

Uh, right, and there's nothing to stop you from doing that, you know, but yeah, so I don't uh, so so my final question then is just we talked a lot about it seems like we talked a lot about the vbs from Sort of the the church leadership

Side of vbs, you know, especially as you're considering like the stewardship of and whatnot, but then as a parent

What is your? You know, I mean should parents be sending their kids to vbs.

Do you think it's a worthwhile endeavor for them to do that? uh, or do you think it's better to just say hey, well we're gonna forego vbs and You know our family will do their own thing is there any value for example like in the relational aspect of vbs and and sending your kids there so that they can get to know the other the other children the

The leader the spiritual leaders of the church. What what are your opinions? Of vbs from that from the parent perspective

Yeah, so if the assumption here, you know A lot a lot of parents have this assumption that they have virtually no responsibility whatsoever to teach their kids the bible and then they're looking to the church to do it and then why vbs takes on like an like like a weird a strange level of importance in their mind is because they're expecting church leaders to be like The only ones who ever have a spiritual conversation with their kids, right?

Where else is my kid gonna learn the bible from? I don't know. Maybe you you know, like you ever think about that?

So a lot of a lot of parents say really they have they don't have any spiritual conversations.

They don't have family devotions They don't teach their kids the bible. They're not, you know trying to catechize their kids They're not trying to help them memorize scripture.

None of that, right? so they they they have basically handed that all off to the church and then this is just this becomes like The token like in their mind like that i'm doing okay as a parent you see i'm saying

Like if if I can just like they latch on to things like this you know if if my kid likes going to the youth group, then that means like Something good is going to happen.

They're probably a christian, right? So they're hanging all their hope on the fact that their kid enjoys being entertained at the youth group

If their kid likes going to vbs is like well Maybe that'll rub off on them a little bit or something like that while I Completely abdicate my responsibility as a parent

So I mean to the extent to which parents are looking at vbs like that They're looking at it like their only hope for the salvation of their child the spiritual well -being of their child

And there are plenty of do that man. I mean i'm not exaggerating like you you would think you think this is hyperbole. It's not um, but that that just reflects like an absolute failure on the part of their parents now,

I mean I I grew up in You know plenty of like revival kind of Church situations where they're trying to manipulate me and I just I really hate that kind of thing

You know, I hated that kind of thing as a kid I don't like being manipulated by um

Like the pastor, you know open your eyes raise your hand, you know If you if you're scared where you're gonna go when you die, you know wink your left ear or something like that Wink your left ear

I see that wink, you know, it's like uh, you know now I mean but I I hated that kind of thing as a kid.

I felt like it was manipulated manipulative I was in situations where I was trying to ask them questions and they're parading me in front like as a converse or something

It's like i'm literally trying to ask you a question. I'm not you know, you're just lying here, you know

In order to pad your numbers and say you had you know This was more successful so that you can justify your existence or something.

So I I kind of saw through it As a kid, I thought it was a circus and sham but you know, I think to the extent to which um

Churches are doing that and I think a lot of them are you know A lot of them particularly big churches are doing that kind of thing. I just yeah any faithful parent shouldn't you know?

They should rather send their dog to vbs than their kids, you know Considering what most of it is and what's most of it's actually happening there, you know

And then I mean you consider like the kind of influences that are there at this point. Um No, like I You know, there's probably a reason why

I don't like Well, there is a reason why I don't send my kids to public school It would be the same reason

I wouldn't want to send them to vbs, you know in a lot of ways But um, yeah, so I mean I I think it could be a good thing if it's done

Well by a good church in you know, and you you know what's going on, you know, what's being taught, you know?

That kind of thing. I think there's some situations where it could be a good thing um I I think even in the situations where it could be a good thing.

It's um You know a lot of work for Not a whole lot of benefit most of the time if that makes sense and so You know and and people get mad at me for saying that kind of thing because it's like You know anything is worth sharing the gospel

It's like but no that's not actually true in principle Is it you know like in principle if you had to spend a million dollars to share the gospel?

I think why not just take the free route, you know, so right So that's not the way like if you don't want to introduce pragmatism in here

Then don't like create a big expensive event that requires thousands of dollars in order to do it, you know, like so like that's um

Like if you're going to demand I spend thousands of dollars in order to do something in order to be faithful Then i'm going to tell you hey, yeah, you know, you can be faithful without spending all that money too

But um, yeah, I think as a parent you should You shouldn't be sending your kids to vbs out of some sort of deficit

Like you shouldn't be sending them there as a way of Avoiding your responsibility of having to parent them and then if you actually can care and concerned about what?

They're learning Then you probably won't want to send them to most vbs's for sure, you know um because you like They're like the kids are just going to be frustrated, you know

Like my kids have been they're like, what are we learning? You know now they may have fun like with um

It may be fun or something like that and that's what you think and you think hey, yeah, i've taught them well enough They know the difference like a kind of thing.

But yeah, I don't know it's subtle at times Like you don't know what sticks with them, you know, you don't know what their filter is and so yeah,

I think that you gotta you have to be careful that kind of thing, but um, yeah, so I mean,

I think it could be a good thing in um, the ideal situation Say most of what's happening is probably not the ideal situation, but there's that Okay.

Well, I think that's a good place for us to uh, wrap up the conversation on with vbs. So thank you tim for answering all my questions and um and having that conversation, uh, we want to thank all you guys for supporting us week in and week out for Uh interacting with us on social media watching the episodes listening to them liking them leaving comments on them

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