Jan. 26, 2016 Show with Daniel R. Hyde on “FROM the PEN of PASTOR PAUL (1-2 Thessalonians)” plus REV. Ron Glass & Steve Visconti on “The Vital Need for Christian Service”

Live from the historic parsonage of 19th century gospel minister George Norcross in downtown

Carlisle, Pennsylvania, it's Iron Sharpens Iron, a radio platform on which pastors,

Christian scholars and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs 27 verse 17 tells us, Iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, quote, we are cautioned to take heed whom we converse with and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next hour and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

Now here's our host, Chris Arnton. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth who are listening via live streaming.

This is Chris Arnton, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 26th day of January 2016 and we are still digging out from the blizzard that we had here in Carlisle, Pennsylvania and surrounding areas and thankfully there were no power outages, at least that I'm aware of, and nothing that is going to prevent us from broadcasting today, thus far anyway,

God willing, and I'm very happy and excited to have returning guests today whose interviews

I really enjoyed in the past. For the first hour we're going to have Danny Hyde returning to the program, pastor of Oceanside United Reformed Church in California.

He's going to be discussing the theme of his new book, From the Pen of Pastor Paul, in which he addresses first and second

Thessalonians. And then the second hour we are going to have back on the broadcast

Pastor Ron Glass who is one of my favorite preachers, not only that but one of my dearest friends and the church where he pastors on Long Island, Wading River Baptist Church, is one of the primary sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron, without whom this program would likely not exist.

And joining Pastor Ron Glass for the second hour will be Steve Visconti who is a columnist for the

Narrow Pathway in Eastern Long Island's Community Journal. They're going to be discussing the vital need for Christian service and so we hope that you stay tuned for that hour as well.

But first of all let me welcome back to Iron Sharpens Iron Pastor Danny Hyde. Hey Chris, thanks for having me.

It's great to have you back and I know that I always have you repeat this but there are people who may be hearing you for the very first time so tell our listeners something about Oceanside United Reformed Church.

Sure. We are a Christian church. We're a Protestant church in the

Reformed Protestant tradition from the 16th century and so trying to preach the full counsel of God here on the coast of San Diego to bring sinners to know

Christ and to help believers grow in their love of Christ and His Word and seek to serve

Him. So we've been around for roughly 16 years laboring here, having planted a church back in 2000 and still continuing.

So, yeah, a normal -sized church I guess. It depends on what normal is and stats and so forth, but, you know, somewhere between 75 to 100 people on a

Sunday and different kinds of people, different backgrounds, walks of life, but who all have commentated on Christ.

Great. And many people who hear the name of your church may wrongly confuse your denomination with a very frequently seen church on many street corners and towns all across the country that might be the first Reformed church of such and such town, which may be a liberal church or a church involved heavily in the self -esteem movement or something like that.

That is due to the unfortunate decline in sound theology of many congregations within the

Reformed church in America denomination, but you are not a part of that. No, our group of churches comes out of the

Christian Reformed church, which is related to the Reformed church in America. I mean, they're the same in terms of historicity and the ethnicity among the

Dutch immigrants. Right, they came out of the Dutch Reformed church. Yeah, yeah, that's right. And our church denomination, you know, roughly started about 20 years ago, but the seeds of it were much later than that in terms of the big issue was the authority of the

Bible, and that's where everything really comes down to at the end of the day. The people take the Bible seriously. They take it as authoritative, and so in 1995, the

Christian Reformed church moved to open the office of elder to women, and so we see that as,

I mean, not only is it unhistorical, but also we just don't see it as a scriptural position.

And the reason why they gave that, I mean, really there was no real biblical reason.

They said, well, you can hold to the traditional view, quote unquote, and that's valid, they said.

But they also said, well, equally valid is the view that women can serve as deacons, elders, and eventually ministers because the

Holy Spirit basically told them so. And so, you know, that's a denigration of the authority of Scripture.

So either Scripture is authoritative for the Christian or not.

I mean, there's no real middle ground there. So that's what led to our formation. That was sort of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Right. And it's sad that some churches wearing the title

Reformed on their sign very often are not even theologically Reformed at all, or even remotely

Calvinistic today, even though their heritage may be very rich in that from many years ago.

Yeah, a lot of churches have that name, you know, that's their heritage, that's their background, that's their sort of, you know, historical, even ethnic identity, but, you know, not a lot of substance to it.

Now, there are ministers, there are churches, you know, there are people in those churches, you know, and I know many of them that would hold to the

Scripture just as strongly as I would, and it just, you know, for various reasons, they've chosen the state.

So, yeah, I mean, every church, every local church is different, but, you know, anybody listening out there who's driving around, you know, or going online and looking at churches that see

Reformed, just, you know, do some more investigation than just looking at labels. Right. And I also don't want to broad -brush everyone in the

Reformed Church in America in one lump, because there are even Bible -believing and thoroughly

Reformed and conservative congregations within that denomination, but it seems that they are diminishing from what

I have seen, and we just ask

God to bring about revival in those areas. But I do know that there are even in the

Christian Reformed Church some men who are very faithful to the

Scriptures still that chose to remain there for some reason. Joel Niederhood, I don't know if he's still in the

CRC, but he was hanging in there the last time I heard, and he's been a guest on Iron Sharpens Iron, and he wrote a very glowing endorsement for our program, so we thank the

Lord for men of God like that. We're here to discuss today your new book,

From the Pen of Pastor Paul, which immediately strikes me as an interesting title, because Paul in the

New Testament predominantly refers to himself as an apostle, and there are even some men and some churches and some denominations that would say that even though Paul was an apostle and wrote much of the

New Testament, that he would not even qualify being a pastor according to his own principles laid out in his letters to Timothy and elsewhere, because he is not the husband of one wife, or wasn't the husband of one wife, and didn't have children that we know of unless he was a widower.

But tell us about why you specifically chose the term pastor in this title,

From the Pen of Pastor Paul. Sure. It's interesting that as a person picks up the

New Testament and reads through all of Paul's letters, or even if you just skim the beginnings of all those letters of Paul, every single one of them, like you said, he talks of himself as an apostle, or as a servant, one who's called by the will of God, and so forth.

But in his letters to the Thessalonians, these are the only letters where he just refers himself as Paul.

He doesn't give him a title. So, you know, there's, on the one hand, you can say, well, that shows us that there was no controversy about his identity or his authority, and that would go in line with, you know, most scholars would see these letters, at least

Thessalonians, as most likely Paul's first letter. There was no controversy yet, really, about him in the part of the world where he was.

Thessalonica is in modern -day Greece. In fact, I know it would have been in Macedonia. And so there's that.

But also, the bigger idea is just, when Paul calls himself just by his name, he's showing us something of his care, his concern, the fact that they knew him really well, he knew them, he loved them, he cared about them.

And so just calling himself Paul, you know, stripping off all the titles and all the authority, you know, he's coming to them just as their pastor, the man who came and preached and the

Church began through his ministry. So it really shows us, in our time, just to sort of apply it, the kind of relationship that should exist between a pastor and his people.

Yeah, it's amazing that some in the clergy, if you will, will insist on very lofty titles, and yet the apostle himself sometimes just said, hey,

I'm Paul. That's right. And what was the reason that you focused this latest work on a study of the first and second letter to the

Church in Thessalonica? Yeah, as I had preached through these letters back in 2011,

I believe it was, and I had just been called away to serve a different congregation, but then

I had declined that call to stay here at the Oceanside URC, and so as I had finished my series of sermons in the

Book of Leviticus, actually, I decided, having just declined a call and decided to stay with my congregation, that it would be good for me to preach some series of sermons re -emphasizing what it is to be a pastor, what it is for the people and I to relate together, and so Thessalonians, these two letters, were to me the most natural letters to turn to, because here

Paul really gives us, in these early letters of his, a real good, basic understanding of pastoral ministry and what a church ought to look like, what a healthy relationship should be between a pastor and people, how a church should grow in terms of the

Word and prayer and fellowship and so forth. So it was, for me, a way for me to encourage my congregation to encourage myself, as we had been re -committed back to each other as pastor and people, and then later on, as I thought about that whole idea of pastoral theology and our relationship as pastor and people more and did some more studying, put all those thoughts from sermons and studies and whatnot into a rough draft and then became a book.

So for me, Thessalonica, these letters of Thessalonians, are at least a very basic summary of a

New Testament Pauline pastoral theology. And of course, something that's included in those letters are beautiful words of comfort to those who are grieving the loss of loved ones.

I'm sure that every preacher and pastor and minister worth his salt, including every ordinary

Christian who is reaching out with the love of Christ to comfort those who are mourning during a painful time of loss, turn to those very letters, those words of encouragement that Paul offers.

Yeah, that would be in chapter 4 and 5 of 1 Thessalonians, especially, where he's comforting believers whose loved ones who believed in Jesus had died and had fallen asleep.

That's the euphemism that Paul uses. They thought they fell asleep, which is really an interesting way to describe it.

It's really to tell us that, yes, they're dead, but spiritually speaking, metaphorically speaking, they're just asleep because they're going to rise again.

They're going to come back alive. Their bodies and souls will be reunited. So the whole Christian hope of resurrection is in that little word, to fall asleep.

So Paul wanted to encourage them that their loved ones who had fallen asleep in Christ, who trusted in Jesus at their death, that they did not miss the glory of Christ.

There was evidently a teaching and a false teaching that was going around that if you died before the return of Christ, that you would miss out on the glory of his kingdom.

So Paul says, no, that's not the case. Those who died, in fact, will rise first when

Christ returns. They have the preeminent place when Christ returns. They're raised first. And then those left who are alive at the day of the coming, our bodies will be changed.

And then together with our loved ones who died, we will go to meet Christ in the air and reign with him forever.

So he wants to comfort and encourage them. It's really this beautiful section in 1 Thessalonians 4 and 5.

And I just have to, before I go any further, I have to read an endorsement for this book because a very dear friend of mine that I've known since the mid -90s wrote the endorsement,

Dr. Conrad Mbewe, who is pastor of Kabwata Baptist Church in Lusaka, Zambia, Africa, and he is the chancellor of the

African Christian University in Lusaka. He is also one of the most powerful preachers

I have ever heard in my life, and that is no exaggeration. And I urge everyone, anytime you hear of him speaking in the

United States, especially if you live here, to drive, take a train or a plane to wherever he is.

I believe he may be coming to Laurel, Mississippi, if I'm not mistaken, if he hasn't already left there.

But I remember hearing not long ago about him coming to Mississippi to preach. But here's what

Dr. Conrad Mbewe says. We hear about it regularly, pastors resigning the ministry, people leaving their churches, churches splitting because of internal discord, and Christians fighting against one another.

Paul's letters to the Thessalonians open up his pastoral heart and theology in a way that addresses contemporary church life.

Believers who read through these letters together with this exposition will be shown the

Lord Jesus Christ on every page as our chief pastor. You will have your heart warmed with love for fellow

Christians, and you will be challenged to live life together with your pastor. The best commentaries on New Testament epistles are often those that were born the same way as the epistles themselves, out of the womb of real pastoral concern and ministry.

That is what you find in this highly readable book on 1st and 2nd Thessalonians. It has an aroma of authenticity about it.

Read it and you will sense the heart of the Apostle Paul for the 1st century church brought with fresh power into the 21st century.

That's Dr. Conrad Mbewe, pastor of Coboata Baptist Church and chancellor of African Christian University in Lusaka, Zambia.

Well, if he feels that powerfully about it, it must be definitely well worth anyone's read, as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, well, thanks. Well, let's go into Pastor Paul's prayer, if you will.

Sure. Yeah, really, the first three chapters of 1st

Thessalonians are an extended prayer. If you read that on your own, 1st

Thessalonians 1 through 3, you'll see that he begins by giving thanks to God for them, and then, in the middle of chapter 2, he again has this language of prayer, and at the end of chapter 3, again, he offers a prayer.

So, really, the whole section is structured in prayer for them. In particular, at the very, very beginning, kind of to show what his prayer was, just the first couple of verses, for the

Thessalonians, and then how does that affect us as pastors, as people, you know, members of churches, and what are the kinds of things that we should be praying for, and how should we be people of prayer.

And that's really one of the things that I think we learn most from the New Testament, comparing and contrasting the early church with, you know, here we are in America and the church in our time.

What we see is how reliant they were on the Lord through the means of prayer, and, you know, the earliest churches were scattered.

They were small, poor. You know, they didn't have buildings. They were under assault from Jews and Romans, ancient philosophers.

Pretty much everybody stood against them. But we see so much emphasis on praying, and we see that in this letter, the same thing, where Paul's praying for them and encouraging them to be men of prayer, women of prayer.

You know, here we are with, you know, all the blessings of a whole civilization behind us, and, you know, we take all that for granted, and we're sort of spiritually lazy and, you know, sedentary sitting around, you know.

We have so much, you know, spiritual blessing, and we take it all for granted that it's all going to be there forever.

And the earliest church, you know, so the opposite, but so full of power.

And, you know, here we are so weak. You know, why is it that our Christian voice, you know, is lessening, and why is it that our churches are struggling, and why is it that our preaching doesn't really, you know, hit the mark all the time?

And I really think from the letter of Paul to 1 Thessalonians, those early chapters, we see the reason is that we don't trust the

Lord in praying. And so that's kind of what we see there in those first few verses, that we're the people of prayer.

He's saying that he's always mentioning them, constantly mentioning them, remembering them, praying for them to God whenever he— whenever he prays, he thinks of them, and that those prayers would be effective to build their faith, to establish them in love and hope, as he says there in chapter 1, verses 2 and 3.

And I want to let our listeners know that if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own for Daniel Hyde, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com,

chrisarnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

And please include your first name, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA, and just providentially, after I read that endorsement fight by Dr.

Conrad Mbewe, and that memory just re -entered my brain about him preaching here in the

United States, coming up very soon, I was correct. In fact, it's just a couple of days away.

He is speaking at the Deep South Founders Conference, the 28th of January through the 30th, and that is in Laurel, Mississippi, as I said earlier.

He is going to be speaking at the Bethlehem Baptist Church, is where it's actually located, in Laurel, Mississippi.

And for more information, you can go to deepsouthfounders .com. deepsouthfounders .com

We actually do have a listener in Lindenhurst, Long Island, CJ, who wanted to know something that I actually touched upon earlier when

I was introducing the title of the book. He said, in your guest's opinion, was the

Apostle Paul a widower with children, even though that is not specifically mentioned, because of the very prominent role he played as a leader in the

Church, and it seemed that the qualifications that he himself penned for leadership required one to be able to view how they maintain and rule a household.

Yeah, that's a question that I personally have not a strong opinion about.

I haven't studied it quite enough to be able to say, look at this passage or that text for an argument to say yes or an argument to say no.

So, I'm sure there's better, more qualified people than me to speak to that issue.

It's always been interesting to me to think about this, and I haven't, again, studied it enough to have a subtle opinion, but as far as I understand, to be a

Jewish rabbi, it was required to be married. So, I would just, from that vantage point, think that he was, but again,

I haven't gotten into any detail to have an opinion. And by the way, CJ, you'll be happy to hear that you're receiving a free copy of this book from the pen of Pastor Paul by Daniel R.

Hyde. If you give me your full mailing address, we'll make sure that that is shipped out to you as soon as possible.

So, we thank you for writing in. And one other thing

I wanted to mention about that, even if he was not married and did not have children, obviously, being an apostle had a very unique role in the church, and there was a very unique involvement of the

Holy Spirit in the life of the apostles, especially those that were involved in penning the ordained and inerrant and God -breathed words of Holy Scripture.

So, that would be a very unique place and role in life that would not necessitate us having to view their life in a home with a wife and children.

That's right. And we, oh, actually, we have to go to another station break right now.

If you'd like to join us on the air, please email us at chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. And please include your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence if you live outside of the

USA. And we do have a few more books to give away. If you live in the

United States only, I'm sorry for our overseas listeners and our Canadian listeners, we cannot have these shipped out to you because of the shipping costs.

But we still want to hear from you with your questions if you have any. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

chrisarnson at gmail .com. Don't go away. We're going to be right back after these messages. Paul wrote to the church at Galatia, For am

I now seeking the approval of man, or of God? Or am I trying to please man? If I were still trying to please man,

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We strive to reflect Paul's mindset to be much more concerned with how God views what we say and what we do than how men view these things.

That's not the best recipe for popularity, but since that wasn't the Apostle's priority, it must not be ours either.

We believe by God's grace that we are called to demonstrate love and compassion to our fellow man and to be vessels of Christ's mercy to a lost and hurting community around us and to build up the body of Christ in truth and love.

If you live near Norfolk, Massachusetts, or plan to visit our area, please come and join us for worship and fellowship.

You can call us at 508 -528 -5750. That's 508 -528 -5750.

Or go to our website to email us, listen to past sermons, worship songs, or watch our TV program entitled

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That's the Thriving Story. Iron Sharpens Iron Welcome back, this is

Chris Arns and if you just tuned in to Iron Sharpens Iron our first guest today is

Daniel Hyde of the Oceanside Reformed Church, United Reformed Church and we are discussing his book, brand new book, hot off the press,

From the Pen of Pastor Paul. Now, obviously, the

Apostle Paul didn't write this book, Daniel Hyde has written us an exposition of 1st and 2nd

Thessalonians, Paul's epistles to the church in Thessalonica. And if you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com

chrisarnsen at gmail .com And we do have a listener in Perry County, Pennsylvania, Arnie, who wants to know, how do you respond to those who are feminists in the church or egalitarians who say that when the

Apostle Paul was teaching that only men could teach and have authority over the church, that that was due merely because women of the day were prone to gossip and their being silent had nothing to do with a prohibition of leadership and teaching roles?

Yeah, well, just to encourage the listener and everybody in particular, there are just really wonderful, large as well as short, scholarly as well as popular explanations of that issue, especially as it relates to 1st

Timothy, chapter number 2, for example, where Paul says, I permit not a woman to teach.

So there are plenty of resources that are available online, of course. Just to give a quick sort of defense, if you will, here, from my vantage point, when

Paul says what he says in 1st Timothy, chapter 2, verse 12,

I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man. Rather, she is to remain quiet.

There are all kinds of cultural issues then as well as now.

There are all kinds of background information that's helpful and so forth. But really, the crux of the matter is where Paul doesn't just state this as true in Timothy's ministry in Ephesus as sort of a prohibition in one church or one region or at one time in the

Christian Church. And I say that because he goes on in that very same passage to explain the reason for what he says.

It's based not in culture, it's based not in his opinion, but it's based in the order of how

God has made the world. And so, the appeal to creation, really, it shows us, number one, the original order that God has set up.

Number two, that was true before sin entered the world.

And, you know, relationships are a mess. And people try to usurp power and people try to savage other people.

Before all that happened, Paul says, God made the world. And so he says in 1 Timothy 2, verse 13, for Adam was formed first, then

Eve. And when Paul, Paul and his letters, as you probably well know if you read, they hang together for a very good structure, a very logical structure.

So when he says there in verse 13, for Adam was formed first, he's saying, because, you know, here's the reason for my prohibition on women teaching and women exercising authority in the church, because Adam was formed first, then

Eve. And Adam was not deceived, and the women, and so forth. So, it's all based in the order of God's created world and the goodness of that original creation, which sin has turned over on its head because of all the struggles and strife that we see.

So, that would be my quick answer. That would be sort of my go -to argument, you know, on this issue.

And I would say, you know, that's dealing with issues in the church. You know, broader issues of society and so forth.

You know, I don't have, you know, sort of an opinion on that personally, but I'm willing to, you know, state, you know, over a radio program.

But as far as church and authority and preaching and teaching and ministry, it's relegated to men, not for cultural reasons, not for power reasons, you know, subjugation and so forth.

It has to do with creation. And Arnie, you're going to be getting—Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, you're getting a free copy of From the

Pen of Pastor Paul by Daniel Hyde as well. Thank you for writing in. And it is interesting that some people use that argument that women had a habit of talking or chatting or gossiping or whatever during the services.

How is that less of a male chauvinist slam against women?

I don't even understand why—how you could possibly, as an egalitarian or Christian feminist, how could you even bring yourself to use that as an argument?

Because that's even more of a derogatory stereotype, in my opinion. Yeah, it's definitely an argument at all, in my opinion.

I mean, in fact, that whole idea of, you know, the struggle between the sexes, you know, male and female, it goes back to the fall.

We see that in Genesis chapter 3, when the Lord is—he comes into the garden, he sees what's happened, and then he begins to issue his curses, his penalties for violating his law.

He first curses the serpent, then he curses the woman.

He says in Genesis 3, verse 16, Then he says this, which is interesting,

Your desire shall be for—this is the ESV—your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.

And, you know, sort of behind these there, in the Hebrew text, you know, it says there,

So he's saying that there's going to be, because of the fall, there's going to be strife between a husband and a wife, between a male and a female.

And we see that, you know, in every culture. We see that in every time and in every place.

That's not, you know, a particular thing about, you know, these particular women in Ephesus. This is about just the effects of the fall in general on all people.

And so Paul is saying, in the Church, there's a certain structure and a certain order in this age in which we now live, because what the

Church is, is to be a reflection, of course, of Christ's love for His Church and the Church's submission to Christ.

And what is that? Well, the Church is a new creation.

The Church is to reflect the realities of what everlasting life in God's presence in a new heaven and a new earth is going to be.

And so the way that the Church operates, the way that the Church does its business, so to speak, is going to be counter -cultural, because it's eternal.

It's meant to reflect alternate reality, that this is how things will be in perfect order, perfect harmony, unity, love, camaraderie, fellowship.

That's how it's going to be forever. The Church is supposed to be, operative word supposed to be, supposed to be that, earthly speaking, you know, now.

Now, how do you cover specifically Pastor Paul's preaching in this book? Well, he did it.

Yeah, Paul, obviously, like I said at the very beginning, Paul shows us in this letter, like he does in many of his letters, in this letter, he's encouraging this

Church in Thessalonica that has sprung up by the power of the

Holy Spirit through his preaching ministry in his Second Missionary Journey. That's described in Acts chapter 17.

So Paul is preaching, and this Church is created, it comes into being, it's given new life, it's given birth by God Himself.

And so as he has to leave Thessalonica because he's run out of town from a mob, he's writing back to them to encourage them.

And like I said earlier, the encouraging thing for us is that this is a Church that's very young, it probably doesn't have a lot of money, a lot of influence at all, but yet Paul says the power that's going to preserve you is the power of God, but that power comes through the means of the preaching of the

Gospel and the Church gathering to pray. And so just one example of what he says about preaching would be in 1

Thessalonians chapter 2 at verse 13, which is really, in my mind, one of the most powerful statements about preaching in the whole

Scripture, where he says that he thanks God constantly for this, that when you receive the

Word of God, and he's not saying that in the Bible, he's trying to explain what he means, it's not the

Bible, but when you receive the Word of God, which you have heard from us when this is preaching, you accepted it, that is the

Word of God, not as the Word of men, but as what it really is, the

Word of God, which is at work in you believers. So really a powerful statement that says to us that when a pastor preaches, when

Paul preached, and we as pastors faintly reflect the Apostle Paul, when he preached, it wasn't his opinion, and his words really weren't even his own words, they were the very words of God.

To these sinners, as they came to a new life in Christ, and as they come to new life, that Word still goes to them as it's proclaimed, and it caused them to grow.

And so, you know, people ask us, well, why do we focus so much on preaching as Reformed Christians? Why is it that we, you know, we have a lot of issues with the way that ministry is conducted in many, many, many churches dotting our land.

It's because the Apostle tells us where the power is. The power is in God, using the means of a sinful man's weak words.

So preaching is the very Word of God. And we do have another listener,

Harrison, in Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania, who asks, well, he starts out with a statement, it seems that the

Scriptures are very pro -family, pro -marriage, pro -procreation, and yet it appears the

Apostle Paul himself seemed to be favoring the single life for Christians.

Is that a misreading of his words? Yeah, that would be in Corinthians, where Paul discusses that.

And where Paul is making a comparison there between serving

Christ, and, of course, the struggles of doing so with marriage and with family and so forth.

So there is a tension there, I would say, a healthy one, because God doesn't call,

I believe, God does not call everybody to be married. God doesn't call everyone to have children.

If a person is married, of course, they ought to, to the glory of God, have a family.

But Paul does say there that to serve Christ without earthly encumbrances, without earthly concerns and worries, that he's able to serve

Christ completely and fully, totally, well, with total dedication.

And so, I would say that a person who is, you know, single, they ought to be single to the glory of God for as long as they are single, and utilize the time they have and the energy they have and all the resources that they have to serve

God as best they can in that situation. And if they desire to be married, well, to pray and to, obviously, wait for the

Lord to bring someone into their life. But in the meantime, to serve Christ. Every person who is married and who has children, their service to Christ is going to look a little different.

It's not going to be as, you know, as much time possibly.

It's not going to be in the same exact ways. And I just as a pastor can, you know, look at my own congregation over the course of our church's history, and you see this.

People who are married can serve in certain areas. People who are single can serve in other areas.

They both do it to the glory of God. They both do it to the best of their ability. But people in different places in life have their own ways in which they can serve.

So, I would say singleness as well as married life, they're both noble callings, and they're both gifts that come to us from God.

Thank you, Harrison, and you'll also be getting a free copy of Danny Hyde's book from the pen of Pastor Paul.

And we do have Christopher in Suffolk County, Long Island, New York, who says in 1

Corinthians 7, verse 12, the Apostle Paul writes, But to the rest

I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, let him not send her away.

Why is he making this caveat that he is saying this seemingly out of his personal opinion, and not that this is being divinely revealed to him?

Is that what this text is trying to convey? I think the best reading of that little story there, or that little section in 1

Corinthians 7, is Paul is saying that there's no statement from Jesus himself that in the gospel narrative that they've been passed down, there's no word from Christ in those gospels about this issue.

And so now he, not the Lord, per se, in a written form, but now he as Christ's Apostle, as Christ's Spokesman, now he has this word to give.

So that's why I've always looked at that text, I think that's the best reading of it. So he's making a distinction between the things that Christ has said, and then when

Christ hasn't spoken to those things, now he's giving directions as an Apostle. What are the fruits of gospel ministry that you could demonstrate from the pen of the pastor,

Paul? Well, there's a love of the word, as I just mentioned from chapter 2, verse 13 in 1

Thessalonians, where Paul is preaching. So there is this love that a minister must have of the word, that it is the word of God, it is food for the soul, it's light, it's lamp.

And so to love that word, I mean, we can't be ministers, which is literally to be a servant of the word, unless we love the word.

And so I see that as chief amongst various fruits of the ministry as a pastor, but also to communicate that to people and to see them grow as well in the love of the word.

So a congregation that loves the word is a fruitful ministry, whether it's two people or 2 ,000 people.

And Paul demonstrates that in his letter in terms of their persecution, their suffering for Christ, but yet they are loving the word of Christ.

And the whole world, he says, is seeing this. And so to love

Christ and his word in the midst of affliction is a sign to people. It's a witness to people.

There's also a love of the world in terms of, not love of worldliness, but loving the lost and desiring to see them, too, come to a love of Christ.

And so Paul talks there in the early part of 1 Thessalonians 1 about the gospel has gone out from them.

And so the sound of the gospel has been sent out from them.

No doubt, people being sent as missionaries, the joy of the Lord that they've now heard, even in their affliction, they're now going out to different parts of Macedonia, Greece, and playing the gospel.

So loving the word, loving the world. And we have a listener from Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Christian, who says,

I have heard that many theologians and Bible scholars believe the apostle

Paul wrote the book of Hebrews. What is your guest's opinion on that?

I have also heard the possibility that Luke may have written it, but I don't know if we can ever be certain this side of heaven.

So any opinion on that? Yeah, that's a good question.

I was actually asked that recently. Traditionally, the church has attributed

Pauline authorship to the epistles of the Hebrews. More modern scholars have looked upon that, and there are older scholars as well.

I mean, even John Calvin in one place says Paul wrote it, in other places he says he doesn't. So there have been some doubts throughout the history of the church.

Those doubts are a little more solidified today. But my opinion would be that I don't really have a reason, 100 % reason to say he did, and I don't really have a good reason to say he didn't.

I think the importance is that Hebrews, it's a part of the canon, it's a part of the rule of Scripture, it's a part of the

Word of God, and regardless of who particularly wrote it,

Even Paul, for example, his letters, some of his letters are not actually penned with his own hands.

He writes through what's called an emmanuensis, through a scribe, dictating.

So perhaps that was the case with Hebrews. I would say we're just not sure.

For sure there are parts of Hebrews, as I personally read through that letter, I think, you know, this sounds a lot like Paul, but there are also other places where it doesn't sound like the

Apostle Paul, if I compare it to other parts of the New Testament. You know, it says it a little bit differently. So, again, the main issue is, is

Hebrews canonical? Is it authoritative? Is it the inspired Word of God? I would say absolutely yes.

Not only do we have the Holy Spirit witnessing to us that it is, and we see that evidence of the

Church, but also its own inner testimony as you read it and compare it with Scripture, the way it interprets the

Old Testament in a Christ -centered way, the way that it is consistent with the other epistles, the

Gospels, and the rest of Scripture. So, you know, for some folks it might be a very important issue, other folks it might not be as important, but like I said, the big issue is it's canonical.

I'd like you to give our listeners the main reasons you believe these two letters to the

Church in Thessalonica are so very crucially important in the life of the believer.

I think first Thessalonians and second Thessalonians are crucial in our time and in our place as Christian pastors, as churches, because they point us to Christ.

They show us what a true, biblical, godly

Christian ministry should look like. They lay out for us as pastors a pattern, a pattern for us.

They humble us in our fault, these letters do. They encourage us, you know, when we fall.

These letters show believers who may not be pastors or elders or teachers, you know, in some sort of form of gospel ministry, they show believers in churches what a healthy church should look like.

What does it look like for me as a member of a church to relate to my pastor? What should

I look for in my pastor? How can I pray for him in his weaknesses and his struggles? How do

I listen to his words when, you know, maybe I've hurt him, you know, one too many times? Or maybe he's having a hard time and his words aren't very clear, and so forth.

How can I pray? How can I show love to and deference to and submission to, but also be a catalyst to help him grow?

So really, I think these letters challenge us in our time to really focus on what a godly

Christian ministry, and therefore what a godly Christian church is all about. And if you could also now make sure that you leave our listeners with what you most want etched on their hearts and minds before they leave the program today.

Sure, I want people to know that Jesus Christ, he is the church's chief bishop.

He's the church's chief pastor, and his own life and his own ministry is, for us as pastors, you know, the driving force of what we say and what we do.

And so I want believers to know that Christ, that he's pastor, that he's the chief shepherd, that he's the chief bishop, chief elder, he's the best deacon you'll ever see.

In him, all these things that we talk about in terms of church ministry and pastoring and shepherding, we find it all in Christ, ultimately, in such a perfect way, as the good shepherd.

Amen. Well, I'd like you to now also let our listeners know exactly how they can contact you and the

Oceanside United Reformed Church, and how they can get a hold of this book. Obviously, Amazon .com

would be one way. Yeah, sure. I mean, people can find me online.

Our church's website, oceansideurc .org. Also on Facebook, Twitter, that's an easy way to get a hold of me.

As far as buying the book, I mean, obviously Amazon's going to have it, but I would encourage people to buy Christian books from local

Christian bookstores, or even Christian bookstores, small Christian bookstores that have websites, to encourage them to support their ministry, so that Amazon doesn't just swallow up the world.

Yeah, it's sad that the local Christian bookstore is a dying breed of stores.

And of course, you and I know that there are some Christian bookstores that the world would be better off without them, because they are nothing more than Tetzel's shop of garbage.

I mean, it's amazing some of the so -called evangelical bookstores will sell.

On one shelf, they'll have something absolutely wonderful by somebody like R .C.

Sproul or John MacArthur. On a shelf away, they'll have T .D. Jakes. And then on another shelf away, they'll have rosary beads and statues of Mary.

So, I mean, it's absolutely... Yeah, I mean, I would encourage people to, obviously, to go online, and, you know, there's

Common Valley Bible Bookstore. There's, you know, Heritage Books. I mean, there are really, really solid bookstores that sell good stuff.

They don't sell out and sell junk. Yep, and I'd like to plug two sources of great and wonderful and God -glorifying and biblically sound books.

That's Solid Ground Christian Books. Their website is solid -ground -books .com,

solid -ground -books .com, and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com,

cv for Cumberland Valley, bbs for Bible Book Service .com. Thank you so much,

Daniel Hyde. I look forward to having you back on Iron Sharpens Iron in the near future. Yeah, thanks,

Chris. God bless. God bless you. And I hope that none of you go away because we have two more guests who are going to be on for the final hour of today's

Iron Sharpens Iron, Pastor Ron Glass and Steve Visconti, who are both from Wading River Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, and they are going to be discussing the importance of Christian service.

That's Pastor Ron Glass of Wading River Baptist Church and Steve Visconti, who is a member of that congregation and also a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron.

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Welcome back, this is Chris Arnz and if you just tuned us in, our second hour today we are featuring a very dear friend of mine for many years,

Pastor Ron Glass of Wedding River Baptist Church, one of the primary sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron that has enabled this program to be relaunched and returned to the airwaves and joining

Pastor Ron Glass is a member of Wedding River Baptist Church, Steve Visconti, who is a columnist for the

Narrow Pathway in Eastern Long Island's Community Journal. Today they're both going to be discussing the vital need for Christian service and it's my honor and privilege to welcome you both back to the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Airwaves. Pastor Ron Glass and Steve Visconti.

Thank you, Chris. Great to be with you again. Yeah, I echo those words from Pastor Ron.

Thank you so much. This really is a privilege. Oh, the pleasure is all mine and I thank the both of you from the bottom of my heart for sponsoring

Iron Sharpens Iron because as I said, I'm not exaggerating when I say that without your help

I believe it would not exist and for those of you who are wondering what sponsor

Steve Visconti is the owner of, that would be Long Island Galleries, whose ad you just heard and we thank you so much,

Steve, for joining the family of sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron. You're welcome. And Pastor Ron Glass, if you could let our listeners know for those of them who have not yet heard you interviewed on Iron Sharpens Iron or perhaps they have never visited your congregation on Long Island, tell us about Wading River Baptist Church.

Well, Wading River Baptist Church exists in order to fill what

I believe is an important niche in the evangelical community here on Long Island.

We are committed to the expository preaching of the Word of God, the systematic teaching of the

Word of God, and we unapologetically maintain a conservative approach to worship and so you don't hear guitars and drums and all of that in our worship service.

We seek to maintain a traditional type of worship service. And in addition, we think we have a really loving, warm and loving group of people and we love to make new friends and minister to our flock, a great place to fellowship.

And those who are in the area, we invite you to join us. And I know that your website is wrbc .us.

That's wrbc .us. Correct. And you host a program called the

River of Life Program. And tell our listeners a little bit about that broadcast that they can hear, by the way, live streamed every

Saturday and Sunday on Eastgate Broadcasting Network. And you can go to their website, eastgatebroadcasting .com,

eastgatebroadcasting .com, to listen to the live streaming. Tell us something about the River of Life Program.

Well, River of Life is simply a broadcast of sermons that I have preached in the past.

And right now we're concluding, getting towards the end of a series on the

Johannine Epistles. We're going to be working here on 3rd John for the next few weeks.

So that broadcast is the type of ministry that you will hear if you come to Beding River Baptist Church.

And what time on Saturday and Sunday can they hear that program live streamed?

It is 9 .30 in the morning on Saturday and 7 .30 in the evening on Sunday.

Great. Well, I hope that everyone listens and starts to go to eastgatebroadcasting .com

as their regular habit on Saturday and Sunday to hear the River of Life Program.

Well, I'd like you both, I guess, to answer this question. Why is the vital importance of Christian service a topic that you each wanted to address today on Iron Trepans Iron?

Either one of you could start, whether it was Steve or... Go ahead, Steve. You're the one that suggested it, so you go ahead. Well, I know

Pastor had preached on this, kind of preached on this topic in the first sermon that he preached in the

New Year, first Sunday in January in Isaiah Chapter 6. And he was actually on vacation the very next week, and he asked me to fill in for him and teach adult

Sunday school. And I had asked him if it was all right to kind of, in a dialogue format, with a two -way dialogue format, to have a discussion, a broader discussion about service using the parable of the talents in Matthew Chapter 25, verses 14 to 30.

So this is kind of recent, Pastor and myself, and certainly appreciate the opportunity to talk about it with you.

And I think, Chris, that there is a problem today in so many evangelical churches with regard to this matter of service.

There are many churches, especially the larger churches, where people come, they simply walk in, they sit down, they become spectators in the service.

They walk out at the end, and then the church sees nothing of them until next week at that time.

We've gotten away in some of our churches from even having membership. The concept of service is being lost.

For a lot of Christians, service is a matter of doing as little as possible to appease the leaders of the church, and it's not service that is done joyfully.

And so we have a situation, and this is sort of the rule of thumb you hear everybody say, but it's pretty much true that 80 % of the work in a church is done by 20 % of the members of the church.

And so I think it's important to come back to biblical priorities.

We need to look at God's Word and see, what does God actually expect of us by way of service?

Well, I'm going to take the liberty of reading the text that we are primarily focusing on today, and I'm using the

New American Standard Bible, not just because they're a sponsor of Iron Sharpens Iron, but also because it happens to be my personal version of preference, and even

Pastor Ron Glass's personal version of preference. We have in Matthew 25, 14 through 30, the parable of the talents, starting in verse 14.

For it is just like a man about to go on a journey, who called his own slaves and entrusted his possessions to them.

To one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, each according to his own ability, and he went on his journey.

Immediately the one who had received the five talents went and traded with them and gained five more talents.

In the same manner, the one who had received the two talents gained two more. But he who received the one talent went away and dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

Now after a long time, the master of those slaves came and settled accounts with them.

Then the one who had received the five talents came up and brought five more talents, saying,

Master, you entrusted five talents to me, see, I have gained five more talents.

His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things,

I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.

Also the one who had received the two talents came up and said, Master, you entrusted two talents to me, see,

I have gained two more talents. His master said to him, Well done, good and faithful slave.

You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master.

And the one who had received the one talent came up and said, Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.

And I was afraid and went away and hid your talent in the ground.

See, you have what is yours. But his master answered and said to him, You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

Then you ought to have put my money in the bank and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.

Therefore take away the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents.

For everyone who has more shall be given and he will have an abundance but from the one who does not have.

Even what he does have shall be taken away. Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness.

In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Pretty powerful and chilling words actually.

And if you guys could begin, perhaps you could begin on the

Master going on a long journey and what the implications for believers are today.

Well, let me just begin by saying that we need to remember that this is a part of our

Lord's Olivet Discourse. Now, in the Olivet Discourse, Jesus gives his disciples an overview of the times that lead up to his return.

And he urged his disciples to be ready. Now what he does is he tells a parable, the parable of the fig tree in chapter 24, verses 32 -35.

And the point of that parable as he explains it is that the people of God have to be prepared for his return.

Then what he does is he goes on and gives three more parables to reinforce that.

The parable of the homeowner and the thief. The parable of the faithful and the unfaithful servants. And the parable of the ten virgins that begins chapter 25.

So, ultimately Jesus is speaking about the advent of his kingdom as we look at it as Christians in a

Christian context. I think what we can say is that the fact that he's talking about being prepared for his return means that the key concept here is watchfulness.

It's vigilant. Being watchful, not sitting by idly and wasting time.

And that reminds us that watchfulness is not something that is passive.

And that's the way a lot of Christians look at their church life today. It's a passive thing.

You come and you sit and you get fed. No, watchfulness, vigilance is active.

And so it means diligence. It means good stewardship. It means active service.

And that I think is the point of what Jesus is talking about. Of course, when he talks about the master going away, he's talking about the fact that Jesus would, as we know, he died, rose again, returned to heaven.

And for 2 ,000 years he's been away. The promise is, of course, he's coming back.

And then we face an accountability for what we have done. We have a listener in White Plains, New York, Bob, who asks, how do you respond to those who are either liberal or who are confused by the wording of the

Bible in regard to slaves, who immediately become offended in thinking that the

Bible is promoting the horrors of slavery experienced here in the earlier centuries of the

American continent and Europe, where men were treated like animals rather than human beings?

Can you please differentiate what the scriptures are teaching when they use the word slaves here and other places?

That's a fairly simple answer to that. We believe in what's called historical grammatical, literal historical grammatical exegesis of interpretation, which means that we have to place slave in the context of the time in which

Jesus was speaking. And therefore, I think it's more accurate.

I mean, I could spend a long time talking about this. You can read it in articles and so on. But for the sake of time, let me just say that in brief, we could substitute the word employee for slave.

Can I add something to that? Yes, definitely, Steve. When you think about back then, in those days, these were employees.

As a matter of fact, they were employees that were very trustworthy and actually, in some cases, shared in the landowners or the master's inheritance.

In the profits, excuse me. And again, when these masters went on a long journey, they were entrusted to be vigilant.

They were entrusted to do business and profit. A lot of people themselves, these people that were hired had entrepreneurial skills.

They were able to turn profits. In some cases, they were able to even share in the profits.

So, if we take that and fast forward to today, we know, those of us who know,

I mean, me, I'm not a Greek student, but the word slave is doulos. But it's not in an oppressive way.

Slaves, in this case, as an inheritance, based on the inheritance of our Lord's grace, us trusting in God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

So, this isn't an oppressive type of a thing, a scene that's unfolding back then and now.

He's talking about slaves as something far more than what we here in the

United States have been used to, if that makes sense. Right, and I can even recall from hearing the

River of Life broadcasts that Pastor Ron preaches for that broadcast, that these slaves very often were men of superior intellect and knowledge in some areas than their own masters.

They were doctors and so on. Isn't that true? Right, and a lot of times they were teachers.

They were responsible for the master's children, teaching them. They also were often managers.

They had ability to handle money, what we might think of as an accountant or an administrator, a supervisor.

Probably the English term that would be more appropriate to what the recaller is talking about is bond slave.

Paul refers to himself as a bond slave. But I think, especially in the context of this parable, we realize these were responsible men.

Now, just to remark for a moment on the investment here, the master commits to these servants what amounts to an enormous amount of money.

Because a talent, and most commentators agree that we're dealing with a talent of silver here, a talent of silver was equal to 6 ,000 drachma.

Drachma was the same as the Roman denarii. And it was basically the amount of money a skilled worker would make in one day, one day's wage.

So what we're talking about, one talent of silver is roughly nine years' worth of income.

So five talents of silver is roughly 45 years' worth of average income.

That's a lot of money to be committed by the master to this slave, to this responsible, if you want to call him, employee.

So he's not talking about something that corresponds to slavery in the

American South in the years of the Civil War. That's not the kind of thing we're talking about.

And also, many of the slaves in that day were voluntarily placing themselves in that position to get out of debt and other things, correct?

Well, that was a provision of the Old Testament law, yes. For Jews, they could do that.

Exodus talks about the fact that if you were in debt, you could indenture yourself to another person until you got out of debt.

Or if you ended up working under that circumstance for a person, and you decided after you paid your debt that you still liked to work for the guy, there was a whole procedure that you went through that would allow you to do that too.

So yeah, it's more of an employee situation than it is a slave. And just out of curiosity, the talents referred to here that you were talking about, the pieces of silver, do you know if the origin of the way we typically use that word today is somebody's innate gifts or abilities at performing certain tasks?

Or, you know, like some people are gifted athletes or artists or musicians or whatever the case is.

Do you know if the origin of that usage of talent goes back to this specific word here?

No, I don't, but I'm looking here.

Actually, the words originally in Greek and then in Latin refer to a weight.

And see, that's what this was. The money wasn't in the form of coins or bills.

The money was in terms of weight, and so they measured it by weight. So it wasn't like saying, well, you have $100.

Your talent was a certain weight of silver in this case. They also had talents of gold, which was an enormous amount of money, even more so than the silver.

And so it was a weight. And that seems to be what's behind the word talent in the

Latin and Greek derivation. Well, if you could explain what the text is referring to when the money was given by the master to each according to his own ability.

Dave, you want to talk about this? Yeah, sure. According to his own ability, not all of us have the same ability.

Not all of us. You know, some of us have higher IQs than others.

Some of us are a little bit more business savvy than others, and the same applied back then.

And our Lord is not expecting everybody to arrive at a certain level of understanding his word as far as serving him goes.

As far as the text goes, obviously these men—we'll get to it later—but two of these three men were obviously ready, willing, and able servants.

But they didn't all have the same ability. And I think it tells us that our Lord is generous. He's gracious.

He's not going to give us more than we can handle. And I think we see the same thing today in the church according to their own ability.

I could tell you right now, and I'm pretty sure a pastor will concur, that there are people out there in the church at large that are sitting under wonderful preaching, very profound preaching with profound implications.

What are they doing with it? And those of us who have the ability, based on the grace that's been given to us for our salvation, what are we doing with that ability?

Are we storing it up and not dispersing it out? Is it just head knowledge? How grateful—when

I taught this adult Sunday school, the opening question that I asked the group was, the question to consider is, how grateful are you for your salvation?

What are we doing? As pastors said in churches around the world, are we just coming in and sitting down and absorbing and not dispersing it back?

But again, in answer to your question, not everybody has the same ability. I can tell you that there are people that hardly have any ability at all to understand the

Scripture, but they're so grateful for their salvation that it seems like at times they give the

Lord back more than He's asked for. And then you have people that hear, and they're grateful, they're certainly saved, but not a lot of it is dispersed back.

And are they giving the Lord back what He's entrusted them with? Probably not.

Not my call or anything, but I think as far as the overall ability, I think that's what the according to His own ability refers to.

Yeah, and I would maybe expand that just a bit to say that there's a whole complex of qualities where there's a variation.

In other words, we as servants of Christ all have different not only talents and not only abilities, and ability is the word in the text, and I think that's the main focus, as Steve's pointed out, but we also have different circumstances.

We have different privileges. We've been given different gifts. We have different opportunities.

You know, one person serves in the Bible belt in a very large thriving church, and another person serves in a very backwash of some

South American or African jungle. These are very different circumstances, and the results of that are going to be different.

But as this parable points out, there is something that is consistent.

It's not the results in terms of numbers, but what is required is equality in terms of effort.

That is, have you maximized your unique opportunity?

Have you been faithful with what you have? Which in addition to these things

I just mentioned would be things like intellect and education and so on.

Everybody's different. God has made us all different and given us all different circumstances in our lives.

The question that this parable is getting at is what are you doing with what you have?

And the danger, which Steve pointed out, I think we can remember this. Perhaps we all need to get this concept into our minds, is the sit, soak, and sour syndrome.

And that's what too many Christians are doing. Sitting, soaking it up, and then turning sour.

Because if you don't use what you have been given in God's service, you tend to become a cranky, critical, and problematic church member.

Yeah, and I would have to confess that I am not innocent of that frame of mind at times.

I can be guilty of that very behavior, unfortunately, and I thank the

Lord that he very frequently brings that to my attention. The point is that the more you personally have invested in that ministry, the more you take ownership of that, and then you're going to be less tempted to tear it down.

We're going to be going to a break right now. If you'd like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is

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Welcome back. This is Chris Arnsen. If you just tuned us in for the last half hour, we have been interviewing

Pastor Ron Glass and Steve Visconti, both of Wading River Baptist Church on Long Island, New York, one of the primary sponsors of Iron Sharpens Iron.

And Steve Visconti is also a columnist for The Narrow Pathway in Eastern Long Island's community journal.

Today we're discussing the vital need for Christian service. And if you'd like to join us on the air, our email address is chrisarnsen at gmail .com.

chrisarnsen at gmail .com. Just out of curiosity, I'd like you both to comment on this.

First, perhaps Pastor Ron can comment, and then Steve Visconti, as a former

Roman Catholic, I think this has bearing upon your own experience. There are people who will use texts like these as a proof in their minds that works cooperate with us being worthy of heaven, that grace is not sufficient and faith alone is not sufficient in order to give one the privilege of entering heaven after death.

And if you could both comment on that, Pastor Ron first, and then perhaps

Pastor Steve specifically, I mean, I'm sorry, Steve, coming specifically from a former

Roman Catholic background. Well, I think that we're safe in saying that salvation has nothing to do with this, except that service is a result of being safe.

Bishop J .C. Ryle put it this way, he said, Let us beware of a do -nothing Christianity.

Such Christianity does not come from the Spirit of God. So, if you are a

Christian and the Spirit of God is living within you, there will be a desire on the part of a

Christian to serve in whatever capacity God enables, and that's what we talked about earlier.

I mean, we have a lot of encouragement in this line.

For example, 2 Timothy chapter 4, Paul writing to Timothy right at the end of his life, urging

Timothy to be faithful, he said, I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing in his kingdom, he says, preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, and then he says a few verses later, but you be sober in all things, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

We have this encouragement from Paul in 1 Corinthians chapter 15, in the last verse of the chapter, verse 58, he says,

Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always, always abounding in the work of the

Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord. Now, these encouragements and these exhortations are to believers, to Christians, those who know the

Lord Jesus as Savior already. Never is service made a condition of salvation.

Never is it required for salvation. It is always the results.

Our service comes from a heart of love to the

Lord for his grace to us. And it's that that drives it, not a desire to gain eternal life.

Steve, what do you have to say? Yeah, just to add to that, three texts come into mind.

In Ephesians chapter 1, Paul talks about the choosing of the

Father, the sacrifice of the Son. And then in verses 13 to 14, you also having believed, you were sealed with the

Holy Spirit with the view to redemption. Salvation is a belief. The popular

Ephesians 2, 8 and 9, And that not of yourselves but the gift of God, not of works, so that no one may boast.

And then in verse 10, we are his workmanship that was created in Christ Jesus beforehand.

It was all foreordained. So as Pastor said, the works are as a result of a heart change.

And you can just keep going. The parable of the sower and the soil. You hear in Mark 4, verse 20, you hear except in bare fruit.

It's the display of an inwardly changed life in the heart. And then finally in Romans chapter 11, verses 5 and 6, when

Paul parallels Israel not being cast away, he says in the same way then there is also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Simply put, you can't, the two of them cannot be commingled. When they're commingled, one cancels out the other and vice versa.

Yes, and we as former Roman Catholics, both you and I and Steve, know that we were taught that in contrast to what you and Pastor Ron were saying, not only our works were required of us in order to gain eternal life and ongoing working, but the works of Mary and the saints had to be added to what we did.

And this really strips Christ of his very unique and exclusive role in our salvation.

And it totally robs the cross of all its meaning, doesn't it?

Yeah, it does. We talked about that a few weeks ago. And not to get too off topic, but realistically, if somebody really opened their hearts and minds and allowed themselves to really analyze that system of Roman Catholicism, they would come to the conclusion, if they're really honest, that there really is no light at the end of that tunnel.

There's no way to salvation. Everything is unspecified.

You do this for an unspecified period of time, and it's just really entrapment more than anything else.

And Pastor Ron, I know that you have preached against easy believism and cheap grace quite frequently from your pulpit.

Unfortunately, there are professing evangelicals who give a lot of fodder to the accusations of Roman Catholics.

Many Roman Catholics believe, and others, members of cults and other organizations and religions, believe that evangelicalism is nothing but a cheap religion where people are getting a one -way ticket to heaven merely by uttering a prayer of some kind and then living like the devil the remainder of their lives.

This is nowhere taught in the scriptures and has never been believed by the heroes of the evangelical faith, has it?

No, and I guess that can be a danger. I personally haven't encountered that a lot.

But for those who have been converted out of Romanism, who have realized the light's gone on in their mind, and they realize that they cannot be saved by good works, then once they are saved, they are sort of afraid of good works because of the error that they were a part of.

And that is unfortunate. That's why it's up to us as preachers and teachers in the

Church to impress upon them the fact that God does expect us to be involved actively in serving

Him. It's just that we're not going to go to heaven on the basis of that. Now, there may be people listening who are wondering, what types of Christian service should

I be doing? They may realize that they have no gift to preach and teach.

They may not have the physical capability of helping out cleaning the church or the grounds and things like that.

What specifically do you mean by works of Christian service? And both of you can respond to that.

Well, let me start with a couple of examples from Scripture. I think that's helpful.

I've been thinking about it a lot more than this, but you may remember

Dorcas in the book of Acts, and how as a Christian woman, she made clothes for the widows.

That's Christian service. I think of Philemon, a little book of Philemon, which

I think is a fascinating short book because it's the only book in the

New Testament that is addressed and addresses Christian laymen.

And Philemon, Paul says, I thank my God always because I hear of your love and of the faith which you have toward the

Lord Jesus and toward all the saints. So what he is doing, he says,

I have much joy and comfort in your love because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother.

Now, that seems to me right there, that one ministry, one avenue of service is simply the encouragement of each other.

And there are people who have no other apparent talents or abilities, and in some cases, people who are maybe even physically unable to do these things, who can be an encouragement to their brethren.

Somebody like Philemon, and also perhaps the woman that is referenced just as a lady in 2

John, the chosen or elect lady, who apparently was a woman who opened her home to the church as a meeting place.

She would have been a wealthy woman, as Philemon was wealthy, and apparently these were people who said, you know, because they didn't have church buildings, you can use my home as a place of meeting.

I think of Gaius in 3 John. Gaius, John says,

I was very glad when brethren came and testified to truth. That is how you are walking in the truth.

And then he says, you are acting faithfully in whatever you accomplish for the brethren, and especially when they are strangers.

And I think he's especially referring to itinerant preachers and teachers, that he was showing hospitality to them.

So hospitality is certainly something. I mean, a couple may open their home and invite fellow

Christians in, and especially if they have visiting missionaries or evangelists or whatever, invite them to their home to stay, feed them a meal, whatever.

I think God places in every congregation, everyone

I've known of, has put at least one person, usually more, who has perhaps exceptional financial resources that can help support that church.

And I think in my experience as a pastor for many years, it's kind of proven to me that the church needs those.

That many churches would struggle to get by on just the faithful giving, perhaps, of the regular average people.

But God puts those who have a special burden for sharing their financial resources generously.

That is certainly service. And as well as teaching and working with children, we need music.

You see, it's hard for me to understand, for example, a certified, educated, certified teacher sitting in a church congregation where there are teachers needed and not doing anything.

Or a person who has the ability to sing or play an instrument, and there's a need in the music ministry, but they just sit there, and the attitude is, well,

I really don't think I have the time, I really don't think I can make the commitment.

Well, wait a minute. People like that ought to be thinking of this parable. What's going to happen when you stand before the

Lord and he says, what did you do with what I gave you? Amen.

And I'm assuming you as a pastor would be delighted if people were to approach you and say,

Pastor, what needs to be done here? You know me. What do you think that I have in my gifts and talents and abilities to serve this church?

Or if they're a newcomer or a new member, could we sit down and talk, and could you find out from my conversation with you how

I could be used in this church? This was a fascinating thing about studying Isaiah 6 recently.

Remember after Isaiah 6 sees the Lord high and lifted up on his throne and he has this glorious vision, and then he becomes very convicted about his sinfulness, the angel brings the hot coal off the altar and touches his tongue and says, you've been cleansed.

It's after that that God asks the question, he says, who can

I send? Who will go for us? There's Isaiah right there, and God does not say to Isaiah, Isaiah, I want you.

No, he asks the question, and Isaiah then says, I'm here, send me.

That's what I would rather have. I would like to see somebody come to me and say, Pastor, the

Lord has shown me that I need to take this ability that I have and use it here at the church.

Can you fit me into this? How can I work into this? Where they know what they can do, and they have somehow been convicted by the

Spirit of God, through the Word of God, that they need to be using that ability. Amen.

And what do you think is exegetically, according to this passage, how are we to interpret the words here about when this will occur when the

Master returns and begins to judge these slaves, how they use their talents?

Steve, do you want to take a crack at that? Well, I do believe that it's, I mean, some of us who believe in the pre -tribulation return since the

Millennial Kingdom, I tend to think, while I can't say this infallibly, I think it's really at the end when the

Lord comes back, consummation of the age, I really think it's when He returns,

I think in this case it's 2 Corinthians 5 .10, and before the judgment seat of Christ.

That make sense? Yeah, I think timing is not as important an issue here as the reality.

The verse Steve just mentioned is critical. Every Christian ought to memorize this, 2 Corinthians 5 .10,

for we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ that we may, and the word is be recompensed, be paid back in kind for everything that we have done, whether good or bad.

And that's a sobering verse, something we need to keep in mind. We are going to give an account for everything, including our service.

There is an anonymous listener who asks, how do you refrain from the spirit of pride and arrogance when you know that you and some other people in the church are really bearing the brunt of the burden of all that happens in the church, and you know that there are others who are slacking and not using their gifts at all?

How do we go about this situation without swelling up in pride and swelling up in bitterness and anger towards those who seem to be nothing more than pew warmers?

Steve, why don't you take a shot at that? Well, I won't go into a lot of details, but I will say that I've struggled with that.

A few years back I did. But I had to come to the realization, Chris, that I can't expect people to be as zealous for serving in the church as I am.

And that was sin on my part. And I appreciate the listener's question.

Thank you very much. I think of what Jesus said when Peter inquired about John in John 21.

He said, well, what about this man? And Jesus said, basically to paraphrase, mind your own business.

Don't worry about him. You follow me. So I think it's important. I learned a valuable lesson from this.

And I did struggle with this. I have to be transparent. I did struggle with this.

What it really comes down to is, regardless of the state of the church, if the teaching is faithful, if the teaching is responsible, and,

Chris, you know it is here. We've been given it, in my opinion. Quite frankly, this is a scary text.

This really is. Because what we have the privilege of sitting under every week, there's a lot of weights that are being dropped in our treasury every week, to kind of, no pun intended, coin a phrase.

But having said that, we have to basically walk our walk and really not be concerned about other people.

Because other than that, we can become judgmental, and we can let pride and even arrogance and roots of bitterness spring up.

And that doesn't help the cause at all. No, I think the word that comes to my mind more than any other word is resentment.

From the standpoint of a pastor or of a church leader, like an elder deacon, a

Sunday school superintendent, some choir director, whatever, when you know that there are people that are capable and yet they refuse,

I think one of the tough ones, and now I'm going to go to meddling, all right, are people who are retired.

And they decide that they want to spend six months in Florida and six months up here and half the time while they're up here or down there even.

They're traveling. We want to see our kids and all of this. And so basically their attitude becomes, well,

I served all these years. Now it's time for me to back off. I want to have fun. I want to be with my family and so on.

Well, I'm very thankful to the Lord that I grew up in a home where my mother and father not only served the

Lord before retirement, but after retirement, they were vigorous servants of the

Lord until their physical and mental strength gave out. And I know as a pastor it's easy to look at people doing nothing, especially when they have the ability, and be resentful.

The antidote is very simple. It's one word, pray.

And that's what the pastor and the leadership of the church needs to do. They need to pray.

Lord, you know this person is capable. They're just not willing.

Make them willing. Or come before the Lord and say, Lord, you know we have a need in this ministry. We don't know what we're going to do about this.

Raise up somebody from our congregation to fill this. If you could address the use of faithful service, a few things, many things, et cetera, address that in regard to the context of our passage.

Well, as far as the few things, I think the few things are just real quick because I know we're getting short on time.

The few things refer to while we're here on earth, many things refer to greater responsibilities in heaven.

What those are, obviously, we don't know. Obviously, these slaves or employees, as Pastor said, were faithful while the

Master was on a long journey. They passed the test as it relates to giving a few, being faithful with a few, or a lower level of responsibility or what he thought that they could handle.

Now they're going to be given a greater responsibility. We don't know what that is, but we don't need to know.

All we need to know is that for those of us who are faithful here, apparently there is responsibility in the kingdom of Christ coming later.

The more faithful we are here, the more responsibility and honor we will have there. I can remember one of my former pastors in New York telling us all in the congregation during a sermon how richly blessed he was by this faithful man who was a behind -the -scenes kind of man.

Most of what he did, and what he did was a lot, were things that were unseen by anyone and unknown to most.

But one of the things that was just so precious to him is that he knew he could count on this brother every

Sunday morning and every Sunday night during the worship service, that when he got behind the pulpit, when the pastor got behind the pulpit, he would have an ice -cold glass of water there waiting for him.

He knew exactly who placed it there. If people don't know where to begin using their talents, if nobody's regularly doing that, that's at least a start, isn't it?

I can remember being told by a dear elderly woman in a human seminary about a friend of hers who was committed to a nursing home, physically unable to do anything.

She was in a nursing home permanently and had virtually no family or friends. This woman prayed for 168 missionaries every day.

Wow. You don't think that's service? It is. Basically, men,

I'm going to have you give what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners before they leave this broadcast today.

I'll give you a minute each. Steve, go ahead. Thank you,

Pastor. Again, as a result of this being very fresh, because this was discussed recently by Pastor from the pulpit in Sunday school,

I mean, I think we didn't get really time to talk about it, but we talked about service, and what about the quality of service?

I think of 1 Corinthians chapter 3, verses 10 to 15, the builders, according to the grace of God that's been given to us as believers, what are we doing with it?

Are we taking jobs in the church because nobody else will do it? What's our attitude?

What's the quality of our work? Are we doing it because we're having our arms twisted? I mean,

Pastor said a couple of minutes ago, talking about, boy, he would love to, he and any other pastor would love to have volunteers just offering their time and talent to serve in the church and even outside the church in certain ministries.

We would just pray that if this even reaches one listener, that we're working for the

Lord of the universe who saved us from the eternal separation from him. He's transformed us out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Don't we owe it to him, not out of obligation, but out of a gratitude for what he did for us by dying on the cross to carve out time, even if it's really important, to serve him with gratitude, not just out of obligation, but with gratitude so we can say to him, see,

Master? See, like a child wanting to please his father. And I just hope that would be etched in your mind as you continue to walk with the

Lord. And we have about 20 seconds, Pastor Ron. Well, I would just urge people to think very carefully about the very last verse, where he says,

And what that tells me is a person who refuses to serve the Lord in this world is demonstrating that they are not truly a believer.

And we thank you so much for being on the broadcast. And the Wading River Baptist Church website is wrbc .us,

wrbc .us. I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater

Savior than you are a sinner. We look forward to hearing from you tomorrow on Iron Sharpens Iron.