Objectors and Objections We Face

Good evening, everyone We are beginning tonight lesson four which means this is the This is the halfway point in one respect the first half of the class will be over when we end tonight And tonight our subject is on objections and objectors that we face and I want to Bring us to tonight's lesson by sort of talking about why we have done the things that we have done over the last several weeks Because the last several weeks was not Without a purpose in the sense of I've been building a foundation in your mind For the type of thinking that I want us to have for the rest of the class so trying to establish a Foundation upon which to build our apologetic and the foundation is five things That you've learned in this class so far number one.

There are no neutral people Number two all people know God exists and will be judged based on that knowledge Number three all people who deny God and worship other gods are suppressing a truth.

They know in their heart number four their very ability to reason Regarding the things of God have been corrupted by sin That was last week's lesson the noetic effect of the fall and number five It requires the miracle of regeneration for a person to come to faith in Jesus Christ So when we talk about apologetics, this is not something we do Independent of the Holy Spirit or the scripture it is something we do wholly and completely Dependent upon the Holy Spirit and scripture no one is going to come to faith based purely on our ability to argue and No one is going to come to Christ simply because we have the better argument because if somebody can be argued into the faith They can be argued out of it It's got to be a work of God and the Holy Spirit.

So that's the foundation knowing all of that We can now begin to deal with some of the direct Objections to the Christian faith and the objectors themselves and how we would interrelate To those people how we would interact with them So as I said tonight, we're going to look at objections and objectors that we face in apologetics now I Want to make a point when we examine objections and objectors We are not abandoning Presuppositionalism we are not running to classicalism or evidentialism though.

We will at times demonstrate Rational and evidential supports we will maintain our presupposition regarding God in the scripture But we may at time appeal to certain classical arguments certain evidential arguments because they flow out of our Presupposition I want to read to you something I actually posted this on Facebook if you're not on Facebook, I understand but I Posted from our book and I know we're going to look at the book later We're going to look at our reading for the week, but I want to read a specific quote that I posted today From the from page 91 if you have your book and want to look it's on page 91 It's at the bottom and If you did your reading this week The first sentence will make sense if you did not do your reading the first sentence may sound a little complicated But hopefully it will make sense as I read the whole thing This is under some conclusions a presuppositionalism of the heart.

So it begins by saying this on this account of transcendental direction negative argumentation certainty and point of contact There is less distance between van Til's apologetics and the traditional apologetics than most partisans on either side including van Til himself Have been willing to grant now.

I stop right there only to say a lot of people today.

I'm a presupper I'm a presupper.

I'm a presupper hashtag presupp.

Remember at the beginning remember the beginning I said I don't like that because most of the people who do that have never read van Til Most people who do that don't understand presuppositional argumentation.

They say hashtag presupp because they can say by what standard? That's what they think presuppositionalism is the phrase by what standard there's more to it than that and what dr Frame is saying is there's not as big a distinction between presuppositionalism and classical apologetics as has been Argued he goes on he says I am NOT at all saddened by this implication this way of thinking Opens the presuppositional apologists many and perhaps all of the arguments generally associated with the traditional apologetics in the past What is he saying? he's saying the apologetics of the cosmological argument the call of the apologetics of the teleological argument are Not that much different than the presuppositional argument that we've been talking about he goes on He said we should no longer be embarrassed for example to argue for the existence of God on the basis of cause purpose and values What's that? cause purpose and values cause is the cosmological argument purpose is the teleological argument and value is the moral argument and that's three classical arguments for God the cosmological argument the teleological argument and the Moral argument and he's saying we should not be embarrassed to use those because those do in a sense Follow along the lines of the presuppositional Apologetic these can be elements in our overall argument that has a transcendental purpose indeed that has More than merely a transcendental purpose.

I'm telling you guys I know some of you came into this and you didn't have any background in apologetics that paragraph is worth the book That paragraph is worth this whole book Because he's making the argument that a lot of the arguments today between presuppositional lists and their Opponents is a much ado about nothing.

So this is very important So when we appeal to arguments we do so on the basis of the presuppositions that we hold That's why we're presuppositional lists.

Well, that doesn't mean we don't appeal to arguments and We will Is that helpful? Good Yeah, but the starting points different head that's the point see when the evidentialist says we're starting from a neutral ground No, you not that's the problem with the evidentialist and Sometimes the classicalist is they believe they can start with the unbeliever on neutral ground you cannot and that's why I spent the last three Classes saying you can't I've been proving that point from scripture and from reason that it's not where you end.

It's where you begin So we good All right Because that's where I wanted to get to let's look now at The objections we face there are three categories of objections if you have your notes or your pen and paper I do want you to take notes tonight And I'm going to put on your board on my board what I hope that your notes end up looking like Because you're going to have three objections The objections we face will tend to fall into three categories number one Objections about the existence and nature of God the existence and nature of God number two Objections about the nature and reliability of Scripture.

So this is existence and nature of God The two is the nature and reliability of Scripture and number three Objections about the interpretation and application of Scripture I would I would I would imagine that we might if we were to if we were to get somewhat creative We might be able to come up with some different objections but for a moment I would like for us to take the time to Consider some of the objections that we have heard to Christianity and see if they don't fall under these three categories Because I do I think that most of them will you might come up with something that I've never heard you might come up with an objection that I've never Heard but but I think that they would fall under these three categories.

So let's let's consider one.

What's it? What's an objection you've heard to your faith? Okay, so I is that what you're gonna say Man wrote the Bible.

So which one would that fall under? number two the nature of Scripture Right and really because the the the argument tends to be men wrote the Bible Men are fallible.

Therefore.

The Bible is fallible, which is a deductive argument.

We talked about the logical rules of logic and deduction that fits You know men are fallible men wrote the Bible.

Therefore.

The Bible is fallible All right, so that's the argument right? So that's nature.

We're not answering the argument Ed.

I know that's what you wanted Okay.

Okay.

I thought you're gonna answer that argument.

I think We're not there yet, but but that is Was that what you're gonna say John? That's a good one about the nature of scriptures written by men Therefore must be fallible.

So that really deals with both nature and reliability.

All right, Ed.

What was you gonna say? I didn't mean to cut you off Okay, so that deals with what? Nature of God right the that is the question of evil.

In fact class Six two classes from now, that's what we're going to be dealing with because that is probably the most difficult question that apologists deal with and depending on your theological framework whether you're a Calvinist or an Arminian whether you have a Biblical framework or more of a what I would say a humanistic framework You're going to come to that answer much differently why evil exists and therefore That's a very important class don't miss class six This is probably one of it's gonna be the one that we deal with that whole that whole question is gonna be the whole class so Yeah, so Ed, you're right.

So the why why would God allow that which what's the what's the? What's the inference in that? Or did he or that he doesn't exist because if he if he was good Yeah, the Lex Luthor argument You get that reference All right, I you want to know how nerdy I am This past weekend I did a wedding and The man who I did the wedding for him and his wife.

He spent time and effort To instead of normally I get a little money for doing weddings.

He gave me a box of Superman memorabilia He gave me a coin silver coin with a Superman symbol, huh? well, haha Idolater yeah.

No, it was really neat.

It was a there was a silver coin with Superman symbol on a few bills That had it was really neat and this guy went a lot of effort to do that.

So yeah, I'm a nerd.

I own it I'm a theology nerd.

I own that too but uh, but I got off task.

What were you talking about? Oh but Lex Luthor Lex Luthor in the in the movie Batman vs.

Superman Not a great film, but I did watch it He said he said that growing up his father was abusive and he asked God to save him God didn't save him So he realized God was either all was it was either not all good or he was not all-powerful And if God is if God was all good, he would have saved me and if he's all powerful He would have saved me.

He's either not all good or he's not all-powerful Therefore God doesn't exist.

So that was the that arguments made in the film So I call it the Lex Luthor argument But we're going to deal with that when we get to class six because that is a classic Argument against the existence of God based on the existence of evil Which is itself a presupposition.

We'll talk about that later.

All right.

So what's another argument against the existence of God? John go ahead Okay.

So again, that's another one for the nature of Scripture and or reliability really that's just that's a reliability argument, right? Um, well It could be interpretation application to yeah, I would say all this.

Yeah.

Yep.

Um, John or Johnny, what were you gonna say? Yeah, we can't know what it says.

No, nobody really knows what it says Yeah, that's the the used to be called the emergent church or the emergent church ain't emerging no more So it kind of went away every heresies don't tend to last that long That would be under that could be under interpretation that could also be under reliability Do how do we know I had two devils sit in my front sit on the porch here and tell me how the Bible has been lost Well, it was it was we were having this was it's about 15 years ago.

We were having a No, it's this It's going to make sense about 15 years ago.

We were having a fall festival and people were wearing costumes And and we asked people not to wear devilish costumes well two girls with very short shorts and Like devil outfits like ears and long tails and they were really provocative for a purpose Without doubt they dress that way to get people upset And they were not church members or anything.

They were people who came just to arouse a To get people upset so I merely walked over to them.

Hey, how you doing? I'm Keith.

I'm the pastor You know, thank you for coming You know, I'd love to talk to you And so we sat down right out there was that we had some benches out there and we sat for about 20 minutes and one of the things that the the one devil said Was that she had been through a lot of abuse and how would God let her be abused? So there's the the argument from evil, but the but then it really came out I can't believe the Bible because it's been translated and mistranslated and things have been lost and all these things and So long and over some so many times and that was so yes that that would be a nature and reliability argument So, yeah Bobby you had one sounds like you say that I know you Well You don't tell everybody we're related So, but it might not be our family I understand we're yeah, so Person who says I don't believe in organized religion.

I'm not looking to give answers to these I really am not but I always love to respond to that by saying do you prefer disorganized? And that's the that's that's just a great quip.

Not exactly an argument.

Yeah Oh, I don't like organized religion.

Well, you do prefer disorganized.

What do you like? All right, so but what would that be though that that one I Wonder I wonder you know, like I said, I thought we might come up with one that didn't fall under here That's really more of an of an argument still about the nature of God though Because the idea is that God doesn't care how we worship Yeah, God is more concerned that we do it our way than we do it his way So again, that's I think that's a nature argument I think most of the arguments we have would fall under these three objections and so for a moment Let me just let me give a few that I have written down.

Let's say may has an extra.

I have a few additional ones Go ahead Hip hip hypocrisy Hypocrisy and that would that would probably go to the application.

You're not applying what you say, right? I'll give you a good example of application how that works out a lot of times Have you ever has anybody in here have ever had an experience with anybody from the Hebrew roots movement? not black not the Ladies and gentlemen We have an identification of the worst people That well The Hebrew Israelites are very aggressive I will agree The but the The Hebrew roots is a different is not the same the Hebrew Israelites are Fanatics and the Hebrew roots people Have a belief that the Old Covenant law applies equally to the Christian as it did to the Jew in the Old Covenant because God's law is always binding and is always meant to be kept Well, depending on who you talk to Because some of them would say well we live under grace But we should live according to the law and so like for you for instance, you know You're wearing mixed fibers and that would be wrong And you know if you had a bacon cheeseburger today that would be wrong because you can't mix dairy with Beef and you know Yes The the Was that Well, no it within the Old Covenant.

The people were commanded to live under the law and again, they were There wasn't there wasn't there was an expression of grace in the Old Covenant They had the the priest who would exercise a sacrifice on behalf of their sins But what was sin was breaking the law, right? So so they make the argument that we now have Christ as our as Our sacrifice.

He's our high priest, but we still have to live under the law And and so we we have this is the argument by the way, I believe Paul destroys in Galatians Galatians is one of my favorite New Testament epistles and Paul destroys this argument because he says that's another gospel In the very first chapter.

He says if you are listening to another gospel It's a curse and and he's talking about the Judaizers The Judaizers were a group that were teaching that very thing that to be a Christian You must accept and obey the Old Covenant standards Circumcision Turn dietary specifically circumcision dietary law sabbatarianism all those things which would fall under the category of the Old Covenant law And and so we have that Interpretation which leads to an application That would have to be defended if a person came.

I mean it happened to me at set free There was a dude who came during my class He wanted to argue with me because I was teaching through Galatians and I I remember I walked outside and he says and he began to kind of challenge me and And I said you're I said, you know, I you seem like a nice young man, so I'll be kind Not that I wouldn't be kind if he wasn't but I would be you know He was he did he wasn't coming across harsh or negative, but I did say I said you have a very Incorrect view of the New Covenant.

You do not understand Hebrews and you do not understand Galatians specifically That was it I'm not gonna argue with you.

Just you you do not understand it I'll take you there and help you but you right now don't So what were you gonna say Ed? That's one of the places I would go I would probably spend more time in Hebrews 8 where it says the Old Covenant has been made obsolete by the New Covenant I would spend my time there.

But yes, Jesus fulfilling the law is part of that All right, so again these I think most things that we come up with would fall under these three categories These are the objections that we face.

Here's a few that that maybe you said maybe you didn't but these are just a few on my notes Somebody says I can't see God.

Therefore.

I don't believe in him.

That would be in that beyond the existence of God I can't see him my imperial Experience my you know empiricism is the idea of what I touch taste feel smell that you know my senses do not Tell me God exists so God doesn't exist.

That's the existence argument The I can't I can't believe there's an old man in the sky who's watching me You've heard people say that all your Sky Ferry is always telling you what to do have you heard that if you haven't been on the internet if you haven't the Sky Ferry is Huge and the the Flying Spaghetti Monster the Flying Spaghetti Monster If Richard Richard Dawkins Said that he has just as much reason to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster as he does to believe in the God of the Bible So now if you ever hear somebody who says to you I don't believe in your God any more than I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster know that that person either listened to or read Richard Dawkins because that's his that's his turn All right, so that's an existence argument You know, I don't have any more reason to believe in Santa Claus and I have to believe in your God can't see him He rewards the good punishes the evil He's no different than Santa Claus and I for and I gave up believing in Santa Claus Outside of the dentist office when I was eight years old and my daddy told me It broke my heart Bobby you were there Yeah, you were there Okay Yeah, so that so those would be on the existence and nature of God We've already mentioned this when the Bible is written by men that's an that's an objection to Scripture So old and rewritten.

We can't know what they said.

That's an that's reliability issue and Then on the third People who say well, that's just your interpretation You know Johnny you really don't know what the Bible says you're just interpreting it the way you want to that's that's the third one right and people use that and Or the people this is a big one people say well surely God doesn't care about this That usually happens when you're discussing sin or something I said well surely God surely God's got more things to worry about than me being gay.

I Am NOT what I'm sounding behind speaking from their perspective Surely God has more to worry about than my sin Right, that's that and you'll hear that Again, that is an issue of interpreting and applying Scripture so That is That is an outline of the objections now Let's look at the object tours the the people that object to what we have to say And on this one, I don't have numbered in my notes, let me count them real quick I think I have five one, two, three, four five.

I do f5 So the objections and then the objectors first objector Would be a person who's arguing from the position of atheism or agnosticism number two would be the person arguing from the position of secularism and I'm gonna put slash Spirituality we'll talk about this in a minute Secularism slash spirituality because you rarely meet a person that's secular who won't say, you know But I'm spiritual and we're gonna talk about what that means in a minute.

I say the devil spiritual, too Yeah, exactly number three people who are arguing from a false religion That actually is going to fall under the next category Actually, and that's the category of heresy.

There's a difference true to false religion.

What? Okay, yeah, well it's because there's a difference and we're going to talk about what the differences are All right.

So number four is heresy person is arguing from the position of heresy Dr.

Frame made a very good point in his lectures.

I don't know if he mentions it in the book I don't remember him mentioning the book but in his lectures on Islam, he says Islam is not a false religion Islam is a Christian heresy They mention that Yeah Muslims believe it's been corrupted Yeah, but but Muslims believe Jesus is the Messiah.

They believe he was sinless.

They believe his prophet of God They don't believe he was the Son of God.

They don't believe he died on the cross but they so so frame would say they they have enough that to identify as a heresy more so than a False religion, but again, that's where you maybe split hairs a little bit, but it's interesting.

Yes, I Would say a heresy is people who would affirm the Bible in some form but Interpreted in such a way that it's not true.

So a hair so a false religion will get here in a minute but a false religion would be something like dualism and the Chinese Buddhism which believes in and rather than that in a god who is personal they believe in Energy that is positive energy that is negative dual positive negative Hinduism, which believes in many gods That would be a false religion that it's not based in biblical monotheism Yeah, polytheists would be a false religion and things like that But any any religion that would base itself in biblical monotheism would would would at least start out as a we'd move into heresy Category and again, I'm not trying to split too many hairs here But that's that's where the distinction I think would lie and then I have one more Yeah, polytheism is multiple gods There in fact if you just for quick for your own edification There there are basically three categories monotheism is one God polytheism as many gods and henotheism is the belief in multiple gods, but one God who rules the other gods therefore a A god of gods sort of situation Well, that would be It's very it's tribal My God's bigger than your God, but your God still exists.

My God just better that idea It's polytheistic, but it's still my God is greater Well, it's it's more tribal than that They ancient Romans believed that that the different areas of life had their own gods There was the sea God and there was the wind God and there was the Sun God and then you know That's different than saying there's one God who rules all you have your God you're in tribe Janice, you know and you're in tribe Daisy and and I'm in tribe Keith and Keith's God is the God who is greater than Janice's or You know, there's some of this in the Old Testament We see this the Bales the people who worship bail didn't deny the existence of Yahweh they said our God is better than yours and this was why in Isaiah God specifically says before me there was no God formed and After me there will be no God formed.

I am God and there is no other I am God and there is none like me That why did God make the point of that because he's arguing against the polytheist and the hennessy is those who would argue for many gods It's not this that I'm greater.

I'm it All right, so the last one number five would be This is a category within a category, but it's still a category Antitheism or what I would or hyper skepticism, so we're going to talk about that Antitheism Hyper Antitheism hyper skepticism Let me go through my notes and you'll see why I make a distinction there Let's look back at Atheism, what are the objectors that we run into? I want to I want to make this kind of interesting thought before before we even go into this Honestly, I run into these the least Absolutely Absolutely, if you do any evangelism You actually go out on the street and talk to people very few people are going to come at you with God doesn't exist especially here now you go up to New York go out to you go out to What was Well, Seattle Seattle at one time was the most unchurched City in America, so you go out to Seattle You're more likely to run in that if you're doing ministry on a college campus like a member.

We're having rich come Week seven rich the fleet is coming.

He goes on college campuses So he's going to be more apt to run into the atheist But if you go out with me to the fishing hole and Spend two hours handing out tracts and talking to people in two hours you might talk to one person who denies the existence of God in any form and So atheism is and what's funny is an apologetics.

That's when we always get ready for we're gonna get ready to talk atheist And we've rarely run into them now.

It's becoming more Common, but it's still not very common.

In fact, you guys know Neil deGrasse Tyson is Know deGrasse Tyson has a you can watch it on YouTube.

It's like a 40 minute Talk that he gave to a group of scientists where he was talking about people who believe in God And he made the point that the vast majority of people who believe in God even the vast majority of scientists believe in God But he was saying we need to because he doesn't he was kind of saying we need to work on this His point was we need to work on Getting scientists to not believe in God you won't go back and watch it for yourself to take away what you will But the point is he came away saying yeah most people do so the idea that you're going to run into atheist agnostics is Less likely than you might think And here's the reason why One all men know God exists.

We know this talk about this in Romans 1 but also to atheism is impossible to prove Atheism is impossible to prove because atheism is a negative statement God does not exist and it is impossible to prove a negative So for instance if I said there is gold in China All I got to do is find gold in China once and I've proven my argument But if I say there's no gold in China, I would have to have all knowledge of China I would have to see inside of every mountain inside of every rock inside of every stream inside of every Chinese person's mouth To know that there's no gold in China The statement there is no gold in China is impossible to prove And the statement there is no God is impossible to prove.

That is why most atheists you can quickly Remind them that they're really not atheists.

They're at best.

They're agnostic Because you don't know that God doesn't exist.

This is my I have a relative my wife's relative That's you know, she's pretty much she'll tell you I don't know I don't believe it, but I don't know She doesn't come down.

I know God doesn't exist.

She just says I don't know And I said, well if you don't know you should go to church every other Sunday, okay, you know I mean if you're true agnostic, you know What's Pascal's wager? What was Blaise Pascal known for it was Pascal's wager remember? Pascal's wager was If you if you believe in God and you're wrong, you've lost nothing But if you don't believe in God and you're wrong, you've lost everything Therefore if you were a betting person the wager would be better to bet on the existence of God not on his non-existence Probably based on Pascal Pascal's older So but yeah, it's a very common past.

I mean if we had a whole nother class I could tea I could I could I could deconstruct that argument and Reconstruct it and tell you how it's still a good argument, even though it can be deconstructed.

It's not a bad argument But it's there's so much missing in that argument that has to be understood but it's still not untrue if you have to bet and One you get everything and the other you get hell You know, I mean, I mean it's you know, but that's not going to convince anybody That's the point that most atheists will say it's unconvincing.

It's what we say last week arguments have to be persuasive, right? Not only do they have to be valid not only do they have to be sound but they also have to be persuasive that was Remember and That's really not a persuasive argument even though there are some people I do believe who are somewhat persuaded in the existence of God just because they believe it's better to believe God exists than to Not believe and be wrong.

So in their sense some people are persuaded by that.

I don't want to be wrong It's like the guy remember Mike Warnke told that story Bobby He went to he met an atheist in Vietnam the second the second week there the guy had a chain on his neck that had a cross a Buddha a Star of David a Star-and-crescent and an Indian arrowhead and he said what is all that? He said, I don't know but in my position I don't wanna make anybody mad So agnosticism says I don't know Problem is they do know scripture says they do know but at least that's a more honest Because atheism says they they don't know for sure, but you can't not know for sure All right, so Just looking at the arguments most atheists can quickly be convinced that they're really not their agnostics if you spend just a few minutes going over a logical reason with them number two is objectors who argue from Secularism or spirituality secularism is the practice of separating faith from life Separate secularism in its simple terms is separating faith from life Therefore you'll hear people say this is a secular workplace can't have any prayer.

This is a secular workplace can't have any Bible reading This is a secular work.

You've heard that right the by the schools are supposed to be secular And what is the school can't take the Bible in there can't have Bible said in there because it's a secular place Government argues that it's a secular place and therefore you can't have Even though we have Moses etched into our buildings You know Exactly, but we they want to argue for a secular society These people will typically not deny God's existence But what they will do is they will argue that they do not need to appeal to him in public discourse They do not need to appeal to him in public discourse, and that's a bigger issue than atheism You realize we have never had a we have never had an atheist president Now we've had a bunch of unsaved ones But you have never had a president who claimed to be an atheist you never had a vice president who claimed to be an atheist very few Congressmen and women have ever been elected who claimed to be atheists you ever seen the movie contact Again, I'm a pop culture nerd.

I know a lot of stupid stuff sticks in my brain Jodie Foster in the movie They make the point because it's about making contact with aliens And they want to send somebody just talk to the aliens and Jodie Foster wants to go But they won't send her why because she's an atheist They send a guy who believes in God The movie is sort of satirizing that but it's probably true Because they didn't want to send somebody that didn't represent the vast majority of people That was in the movie.

We don't want to send you because your belief does not represent the vast majority of people's beliefs So they sent the father from Steele Magnolias Not remember his name, but he was I'm not wrong And Bobby probably knows his name, but you know what I'm talking about.

Yeah Anyway, so the point is though You don't have you don't have Atheists in most branches of government, but what you have a secularist and I think it's worse Because what they say is I can believe But it doesn't affect how I live I'll give you I'll give you a thought when Hillary Clinton was running for president United States back in 2016 She had a running mate Tim Cain was her running mate Tim Cain was a Catholic What do Catholics believe about abortion? Abortion is wrong But this is what he said.

This is a quote He says I have a traditional Catholic personal position But I am very strongly supportive that women should make their own decisions and Government should not intrude I'm a strong supporter of Roe v.

Wade and women being able to make these decisions in government We have enough things to worry about we don't need to make people's reproductive decisions for them So as he's saying sure, I'm a Catholic, but that only matters when I'm at home It doesn't matter when I'm leading the people.

I'm going to lead the people in a secular way So as I think this is more dangerous guys because this is what happens when you talk to these people.

Oh, yeah, I'm a Christian But it doesn't affect how I live That's a harder apologetic.

That's a harder nut to crack Yes, John So, yeah, I remember something like that and isn't he a Catholic But isn't he one of the strong supporters of abortion a man of faith? Yeah, that's right.

Yeah So again, the idea is that the existence of God is personal and individual and Relative you have your God Mark and John you have yours and I have mine and you whatever you do in your closet with your God is your personal Think about this.

I don't want to make this I'm gonna end up going way too long.

But think about the kovat thing Why do you got to go to church? Why can't you just do that at home? That was the whole argument of kovat you don't need to gather just do it at home It's just secularism Pushed to its logical extreme And I say spirituality because every one of those people would say I'm spiritual And spiritual means nothing And I don't mean to be ugly when somebody tells me they're spiritual.

I usually do this Yeah, well, so does the devil and not being ugly, but just you know, that doesn't mean anything Spiritually dead.

That's the problem.

Sorry Get ugly.

What's a Johnny? Yeah, yeah So, let's look so very quickly though This would fall under the existence of God Secularism spirituality would fall under the nature of God God doesn't care how I am.

God doesn't care what I do That that too could be under interpretation application of Scripture, but they probably don't care what the Bible says So it's more the nature of God God didn't want us to live by a book God wants to live by how we feel Dude, I I was at the Trump.

I was at the Trump Rally here in Jacksonville when he was running the first time Mike Call you was preaching outside and I was I was tracking the the line There was like a thousand people in line to get in to see Donald Trump and I just walked down the line handing out tracks Mike Carter's and you know behind me about 30 40 feet behind me preaching.

It was great I meet this guy and he he just he immediately wanted to argue with me about the existence of God and You know, but oh, well, they're in a truck ride.

They must be saved No, they're not I'm pretty animated tonight.

They are not this guy Starts arguing with me about you know, well your mind has been brainwashed and you don't really know anything and you're so Closed-minded and he's really just kind of attacking me and I'm trying to deal with him and we're getting a crowd Lady behind me who was selling t-shirts or something wearing a Long flowing skirt no shoes tank top headband look like Woodstock And she starts going we're all energy We're all She's screaming Mike is on a a mile hailer that his speaker will reach a mile away.

I couldn't hear him Over her we're all energy that spirituality garbage All right moving on False religion false religion as I said, I distinguish this from heresy Because when we look at when we look at religions that are That have no grounding in Scripture No grounding in Scripture at all Maybe come up with a few category.

What would you say? We already talked about it the Roman pantheon of gods the Greek pantheon of gods what else the Hinduism Taoism Native Americans.

Yeah, but I'm there that There's animism animism Yeah, it's worship of nature You know and pantheism the idea that God is in everything Pantheism is is not that God is everywhere That God is in everything he's in the he's in here he's in here he's in the tree He's in the whatever and he's in me and if I want to find God I look within that's the that's Who's that lady Jane Jane Fonda? lady who went over to Vietnam and She came when she made a video back in the 80s where she stood on the beach and said I am God I am God.

I am God It's like no, you're not But but that's the idea of Pantheism it's it's God is in everything's in me and and that is not biblical Christianity.

That is a false religion That's right Maybe it was no it was surely McLean.

Thank you.

It wasn't Jane Fonda.

It was surely McLean.

Thank you Ed Yeah, and There was I Won't most of you've heard this story, but my Kmart story is epic Bobby I know you've heard it when I met the girl in Kmart Handed her the track went back to buy shoes.

She follows me She was a worker there.

She followed me handed me the track and I said, thank you Cuz a lot of people tear them up and throw them away So when she handed it back to me, I thanked her and I went back to looking at the shoes and she stood there And I was like, I really I wasn't okay, can I help you she goes well I just want you to know why I gave it back and I said, well, I know why you gave it back You don't believe what it says And she goes well, I just want you to know my goddess Would not send anyone to hell.

I said that's right because your goddess doesn't exist.

You're an idolater That's exactly what I said.

Your goddess does not exist.

She couldn't possibly send anyone to hell you made her up in your own mind You know, we had about a 20-minute conversation after that and it ended up being a good conversation because I was honest with it.

I Said your God does not exist You have made her up in your own mind to satisfy your own desire She said I can't say it that way.

Yes, you can just give it a shot It's like the guy Burger King Up here Burger King.

I was talking to a guy and I said to you Would you consider yourself a good person? He said yes.

I said have you ever stolen anything? He said yes I said well, that means you're a thief.

I said have you ever lusted in your heart? And he said no I said you've never lusted in your heart.

He said no.

I said, are you gay? And he goes no what's lust And when I explained to it he agreed that he had done that too, yeah but that was an interesting moment because Nathan Dutton was with me laughed when I said, are you gay? He was like, I couldn't believe I would ask But I got to get somewhere with this guy.

We're trying to go through the conversation to get him to the gospel Anyway, I don't mean to be telling all kinds of stories.

But this is this is all what we deal with It's very rarely the atheist guy sometimes it will be had a guy at the when I was doing the the fishing hole at the fair Who said and I just don't believe God exists.

I said well, no, you know God exists And they're just like pause I Said the Bible says, you know God exists and you're suppressing that truth and unrighteousness Said really I said, yeah That was all it took it didn't I didn't have to go into precept I don't have to go into any transcendental argument.

I just laid out the scripture.

This is what the Bible says you're doing right now Really? Now he didn't fall over and worship Jesus, but at least it struck him to the core that That's what he was doing Sometimes it's all it takes so, um So when we I already made this distinction, but the difference between false religion and heresy is heresy would be something that would That would have a basis in Scripture Again, and again, some people would say Islam is a false religion.

Dr.

Frame says Islam's a Christian heresy wherever you fall in that I don't care put it on, you know Put it under whatever category you want to I just think it's history interesting to call Islam Christian heresy It's just interesting to consider that the last one is Anti-theism and we're going to spend the last few minutes on this and then take our break when I say anti-theism that's different than atheism Because it is hyper Skepticism and I like I said, I include this as a separate category because these tend to be more vicious than What we typically deal with with atheism They are not satisfied simply living in their own unbelief, but they are zealous to convert others to unbelief Indeed They attack God's Word.

They don't just question it.

They attack it and I had a guy on my Facebook page a while back.

I think he left.

I never unfriend hardly anybody I really don't because I want people to hear the gospel and I put the gospel on my page a lot So I rarely unfriend people unless they're just being belligerent and harsh and this dude was and I didn't unfriend him I think he finally just got tired of me But he was a karate guy who I didn't even know he just it was a friend of a friend that we got hooked up together and He compared the activity of worship to fertilizer You know, I mean horse manure He compared our God to a madman and he cited scripture doing so he cited the story of the Passover as His argument for God being a vicious despot madman murderer genocidal maniac These are things that he said A few years ago.

I went to a conference where Robert Price was debating James White Robert Price is part of the Jesus seminar They're a very They're very liberal wing of Christian scholarship and I don't even call it Christian.

I call it liberal scholarship.

It's really not Christian and Robert Price and James White debated and I remember that debate very well because I thought Robert Price was a very jovial guy Even though he was an atheist or agnostic.

He was very jovial and nice.

I talked to him afterwards He was a kind person, which is more dangerous.

I think Oftentimes in movies they paint atheists like they got claws in here That's not the ones you got to worry about the ones you got to worry about are the guys in the Universities that are super winsome and loving and caring to their students because they're the ones who are going to be Changing people and say see how I am how loving I am and I don't believe in God but anyway He was nice, but the people that were there to support him were rough That was when I got to meet who wrote Case for Christ Lee Strobel.

He was there Lee was there a bunch of other people were there, but these people would stand in the lobby waiting to attack us as we came out not physically but just to berate and Want to argue you come over here that they had tables set up.

They had money That had in God we trust before 1956 our money did not say in God we trust So they had bills that were printed before 1956 see and God we trust we didn't never believe that before 1956 and they were holding that up yelling at us as we went by these guys were These guys were not atheists.

They were anti theists Yes, sir, you know, I don't know I don't think about that one because Bart is Bart considers himself an agnostic But his but his his attacks against the scripture will not go unanswered and So I think he's a hyper skeptic.

Maybe that would be a better I don't I don't know that he's vicious in his own personal attacks, even though he can be He is working towards getting people not to believe the Bible for sure so yeah, I would I would probably put him in that category You know when we consider hyper skepticism It is You know the people who just say, you know, you can't know that you can't know anything That's dangerous.

And like I said, it's it's it goes beyond atheism Well, that was that was really all I had in my notes for that.

Does anybody have any questions before we take our break? Yes, sir False religion.

Yeah, I And that's a good question John because honestly guys like Anton LaVey, you know, they they're they're wanting you to worship They're just not wanting you to worship the God of the Bible.

So You know idolatry is false religion.

It's putting something else before God and and it would be whether it's Satanism or Buddhism or anything else, you know, it's a it's a dangerous form of false religion All right.