September 13, 2023 Show with David Lovi, Les Lanphere & Tim Cannon on “Cessationist”

Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer

George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister George Norcross, and sports legend

Jim Thorpe. It's Iron Sharpens Iron. This is a radio platform in which pastors,

Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

Proverbs, chapter 27, verse 17, tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet

Earth who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Wednesday on this 13th day of September, 2023, and I'm so excited that it is only one week away when

I will be in Atlanta, Georgia, Manning and Exhibitor's Booth, as I always do every year for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, at the next

G3 National Conference on the Sovereignty of God.

And there is going to be a part of that conference that will be an additional exciting event.

It will be the debut of a new documentary that we will all be viewing at the conference called

Cessationist, and I am thrilled to have on the program the three creators of this new documentary,

David Loewe, Les Lanphier, and Tim Cannon. And it's my honor and privilege to welcome all three of you, brethren, to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Thank you for having us. We're so happy to be with you. God bless you both. Excited to be here.

Yes, I'm excited to have all three of you on, and if there is anything that you could do to turn your volumes up, for some reason you sound a little bit distant, but that would be helpful to just get a little louder on your end.

I'm especially thrilled today to have on the program somebody that I know is a regular and faithful and loyal listener to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, David Loewe, because when

I last spoke with him, he said, now, when is your program on? Is it once a week, once a month?

Is it 20 minutes long? Is it five minutes long? Obviously a huge fan of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Well, it's kind of a new show you started just recently, so it makes sense that he hasn't really gotten a chance to check it out yet.

Obviously, that was said in sarcasm, because I've been broadcasting since 2005. That's right.

You should ask him if he's watched Les' other movies yet. By the way, definitely, if you could turn your volumes up,

I'm turning you up on my end, but it would help if you turn your volumes up on your end, if you can. First of all,

David Loewe, tell our listeners something about yourself and how you had this bug in your brain that basically compelled you to join

Arms, link Arms with Les Lanphier and Tim Cannon to create a documentary on cessationism.

Yeah, thanks so much. And since we had that conversation, I actually have listened to your show, and I really like it a lot, so it makes me appreciate the fact that you have real great scholars and famous Christian leaders on here, and that you would ask humble little old

David Loewe to come on the show, too, really means a lot to me. So, thanks a lot. Well, I just consider these great scholars, these world -renowned giants of the faith, my peers.

Yeah. No, I'm kidding. So, tell us, David, who was it?

Was it you, or was it Les, or was it Tim, who first had the idea, hey, you know, there needs to be a documentary on cessationism?

Well, it was actually during a phone call that I was having with Tim Cannon. We were originally going to make a different film entirely,

Tim and I were, before I even met Les. We were going to make a film that was kind of a sequel to another film that I had worked on years ago that came out in 2014 called

Logic on Fire, Life and Legacy of Martin Lloyd Jones. Oh, I loved that documentary. Oh, thanks a lot.

Yeah, I was a co -producer on that movie, and that was the only film that I had ever been involved in.

By the way, just out of curiosity, if you don't mind me interrupting you, why did you not pursue, unless you did and failed, to have

Peter Jeffery as a part of that? Peter Jeffery was a friend of mine now in eternity with Christ, but he was the pastor of the first church pastored by Martin Lloyd Jones, Sandfields, in Port Talbot Wells.

Yes. So actually, unfortunately, as is with even our documentary right now with Cessationist, we had so, so many interviews when we did

Logic on Fire that the editors really had to pick and choose, and the director had to choose what would be in the film.

So yeah, there were a lot of guys that we really wanted to get in there that we weren't able to.

And and even in this case, too, with Cessationist, there were guys who I kept saying to Les and to Tim, we just need like five more interviews, just five more.

But but it was always five more. Even when we had 40, it was five more, you know.

I wish I wish we had gotten old Palmer Robertson for this film for Cessationist, but we weren't able to.

But but so you asked the question, how did this come about? Well, we were going to do the sequel to Logic on Fire kind of was going to be a film about Beth and Lloyd Jones, Martin Lloyd Jones's wife, who was a medical doctor and left medicine to follow her husband as he went into ministry, which is really a lot of people don't know that that story.

But it's truly remarkable. She was a medical doctor in 1927, 28 as a woman in England.

That wasn't very common back then. So we were all set to make that film.

And then Covid happened and there were travel restrictions and we weren't able to get out to England.

And Tim kept pestering me. We still have to make a movie. Let's make a movie about something else where we don't have to travel across the world to do it.

And and I said, well, if I was going to make any kind of movie at all right now, it would be something on the doctrine of cessationism, because I was a pastor of an evangelical free church 40 miles north of Chicago.

Oh, nine years ago. And at the very beginning of my pastorate, then

I could see for the first time the tremendous damage that bad doctrines of the

Holy Spirit can have on a congregation. And and before I was there, there were real just just church splits and really difficult times in the church that I really wasn't even aware of until after I came on.

And they had to do with things like Jesus culture being played in the worship service and Hillsong.

And some of the young people had left the church to go out to California and follow Bill Johnson and his kind of new apostolic reformation, which is even a word nine years ago that I had never heard before.

So it caused me a lady in the church came up to me one day and said, are you going to allow

Jesus culture to be played here? And I didn't really know much even about contemporary

Christian music. When I became a Christian at 22, we we only played hymns in the church where I was.

So I said, well, I don't know what are they bad. And then she gave me this massive packet of information that she had collected about the teachings of Bill Johnson and how really wicked they are.

And that led me down a path to becoming a cessationist and not just being open, but cautious, like I had considered myself previously.

And so it's been on my heart for the last nine years and and Tim, along with Tim's kind of pestering of me to make a movie with him, this was this was the subject we decided to do it on.

Great. And less land fear. Perhaps it would be wise for you to give our listeners a definition of cessationism because our audience is not only comprised of seasoned

Christians who might be very familiar with that term. There may be new believers in our audience unfamiliar with what that means.

And there also may be non -Christians we on occasion do hear from people in other religions and cults and even agnostics and atheists on occasion.

So a less land for one of you define cessationism. Sure, I'd love to.

How's my volume? Is it OK? It's perfect. OK, great. So cessationism is the idea that the miraculous gifts that were given to the apostles and others in the early church, specifically prophecy, tongues, speaking in tongues and the gift of healing, that those gifts served a specific purpose for a specific time as a foundational way to establish the teachings of the apostles and of Christ.

And after the purpose had been fulfilled and after the foundational period had ended, then along with that, the gifts that were confirming the messengers also came to an end.

So that's there's been sort of a historic, really, that the church at large has has been cessationist in the sense that they believed that the apostolic age is when those things were happening and ceased after that.

But the term cessationism really is a more a more modern term. And it's it's really a reaction to the claim that these gifts either never ceased or have come back more recently in the form of the charismatic movement and Pentecostalism.

Isn't that often called the latter reign by those advocates of non -cessationism? Yep, yep.

Or continuationism or continuism. Yep, yep, exactly. The continuation of the gifts or or the charismata, the these gifts are.

Yeah. So those gifts, again, prophecy, tongues and healing, they're saying are still in effect.

And so cessationists, cessationism as a position is sort of necessarily something that needs to be said clearly, because never before in history really has the church even really entertained these ideas.

It's a very new thing that the the mainstream of Christianity thinks that you can speak in tongues, you know, just at will like that.

That is a very new and odd idea within Christianity. So but it's also very popular.

And of course, there have been claims by charismatics and Pentecostals that there were church fathers and reformers like I remember in my very early stage of searching for truth before I was a believer.

I can recall visiting Pentecostal churches and one in particular that I began attending every week for months.

I can remember claims being made that Martin Luther spoke in tongues and so on.

But there is those claims are very dubious, aren't they? Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

I mean, there's you can always you know, if you look back at the church fathers, you're always going to be able to grab quotes to support all kinds of wild things for various reasons.

And, you know, let's let the church fathers be the church fathers. And, you know, they're they're studying and it's it was a very interesting time theologically, for sure.

But the consensus, if you really take seriously the spirit of theology coming out of the post -apostolic church.

So after after the after the scriptures are closed, what do we see?

And it's very, very clear that you don't have apostles wandering around, touching people and healing them by command or things like that, or speaking in other languages that they don't know or even prophesying as in like telling the future or receiving a new revelation from God.

It's very clear that the canon closed and these gifts closed. And yes, you may be able to find quotes here and there that that seem to maybe indicate that, you know, they saw they saw strange things or even miraculous things.

But that's very different than saying that that the gifts never ceased and they still continue today.

And if you walk into any gospel believing spirit filled church, you're you should expect to see them as a normative practice that is that is foreign from church history.

And of course, there are instances from centuries ago before the birth of the

Pentecostal movement in the late 19th, early 20th century. There have been examples centuries ago of people claiming miraculous sign gifts, but they were typically very aberrant and heretical groups like the

Zwickau prophets, for instance, in the 16th century, who were a strain, a sect of Anabaptists that were out of their minds, really, that they believed in a plural marriage and believed to be prophets and were executing their own members for less than significant reasons and that kind of thing.

But just because those things existed as beliefs after the conclusion of the apostolic age doesn't mean that the people promoting them were true

Christians. And we also have to make sure that we state clearly that the

Anabaptists are typically broad brushed and they shouldn't be because not all of them were promoting the kind of craziness that the

Zwickau prophets were. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I think the thing that typically you have throughout history, if somebody is claiming to be able to do these sort of miraculous gifts, the thing that they all have in common is that the gifts don't look like what the

New Testament gifts look like. So they're they're redefined versions of them. And then the other thing they all have in common is that they were all heretics, which is not not a good not a good pedigree.

But then somehow that's not the case now. Oddly enough, we now have charismatic people with otherwise solid theology.

Right. And that's where it gets very, very strange. Yes. And Tim Cannon, I love the name, the one name of the three of you that sounds like the perfect private detective name.

Tim, let's go ahead. You were going to say something. I was going to. Can you hear me

OK? Yes, perfectly. OK, well, first, let me say I am a true fan of the show.

I've been listening. I listen to Richard Romano, the brother of Ray Romano. Oh, yeah.

So it's an honor to be to be to be on because I have been listening for a good since probably about 2011, 2012.

So, bro, bro, you said you're a true fan. What does that make me then? Well, we'll talk after you watch the rest of Les' movies, but anyway,

I was going to ask you, Tim, and we'll start with you and have

Les and David also give some of their background. I think it's important for our listeners to know the theological, ideological positions, perhaps even denominational positions from which each of you come and represent.

And we'll start with you, Tim. What church do you represent and theological position?

Yeah, I go to Reformed Baptist Church of Louisville, my pastor, Jim Sebastio, trained under Al Martin from Montville, New Jersey, and actually my pastor,

Jim, is from the New York, New York City, maybe it might even be Long Island. Wow.

And so I'm from Long Island, as you may know. Yeah, right.

And so my wife and I actually just became official members within the last three months.

So we've been attending there for quite some time. So they finally let you into membership after the restraining order was dropped?

That's right. That's correct. We had a very rigorous process, you know, make sure the fingerprints came back clear and memorized in 1689.

So we made it. It's actually been a really wonderful, wonderful church body to be a part of.

Please tell Jim I want him on the program because people have been urging me to interview Jim. And it's one of those things where I always forget that they fall through the cracks.

But I would love to have him on the program. Well, I'd like to say I'm pretty tight with him and and I'll I'll talk to him and we'll make that happen.

He's he's a true, a true shepherd. He's been really good to my family and and we've been well fed spiritually and theologically there at RBC Louisville.

I grew up in the American Baptist Church with some mix of kind of theological liberalism and some

Pentecostalism that my my dad kind of brought in with it. So this is this is a subject that is near and dear to my own heart from just some of my own experiences growing up.

And Les Lanphier, tell us about your background and what church you represent. So I am the resident

Presbyterian. Christ the King Presbyterian Church in Port St.

Lucy is the church that I attend. I made a film called Spirit and Truth, and that film followed the planting pastor of the church as we discussed the regulative principles.

So he sort of played a recurring character in that film. Um, and that's yeah, that's about it.

And just a churchman. And David Lobey, I understand that you are doing you are due congratulations because not long ago you became a pastor yourself.

Well, again, yes. Thank you. Thank you very much. This is actually the third church that I have pastored.

I was I was pastoring actually a Korean church.

I'm not Korean. I was pastoring a Korean church in their English ministry back in 2010 to 2012.

And then I became a pastor of an evangelical free church in 2014 to 2020.

And then I became a pastor of kind of an independent small are reformed

Baptist church just about two years ago now, 2021.

So I've been to a few different kind of denominational settings. I actually grew up not in a

Christian household at all. My dad was Jewish and my mother was Catholic.

So I was a cashew. I never heard that one before. That's good.

Yeah, I was I was a cashew and but pretty much pretty much just an atheist or agnostic until until a

Korean missionary invited me to Bible study. And the Lord saved me when I was 22 years old.

And and so so I did not grow up in the church. And I say I'm small are reformed

Baptist. I'm just a Calvinistic Baptist as it as it regards eschatological positions.

I've kind of shifted my views along the way a little bit. But yeah, so the three of us really do come from very different places, less

Tim and I. And we're going to find out more about your reasons for being opposed to the modern day sign gifts being a perpetual reality in the church today.

When we come back from our first commercial break, if anybody has a question for my guests, please send your email to Chris Arnzen at gmail dot com.

C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail dot com. As always, give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

We'll be right back. Please don't go away. The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents the future of Christendom 2023.

The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic.

Is gay Christian a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church? So come join us for the sixth future of Christendom conference.

The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code

G3ISIR, that's G3ISIR for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnzen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor Booth and say hi to Chris Arnzen while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the SecureComm Group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnzen's Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Program.

The SecureComm Group provides the highest level of security, close -circuit television, access control, and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities, and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, off -site viewing, and connectivity from most smart devices.

From simple code -activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition, the

SecureComm Group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain, and secure your local network, whether it's a

Wi -Fi or hardwire network. We'll implement the latest secured firewall, endpoint solutions, and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the SecureComm Group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355. Or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the SecureComm Group, joining

Chris Arnzen's family of advertisers to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air.

Welcome back. This is Chris Arnzen. If you just tuned us in, I have as my guests today on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Dave Lovey, Les Lanphier, and Tim Cannon, who are all creators of the new documentary,

Cessationist. If you would like to join us on the air with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnzen at gmail .com.

If you are somebody who wants to remain anonymous because of the fact that you are struggling with this issue, perhaps you were a continuous, meaning a

Pentecostal or charismatic, and you are rethinking that.

Or perhaps you are someone who is at odds with your own pastors or congregation over this.

Maybe you're even a pastor yourself, and you are at odds with your fellow elders and your congregation over these issues that are under the umbrella of cessationist versus continuationist or continuous controversies.

Well, we understand things like that would compel you to remain anonymous. But if you are just asking a general question, please give us your first name, at least city and state and country of residence.

David, if you could, we'll start with you. Please clarify what your intention is with this documentary, because I don't know if you agree with me, but although I think that this is a very important issue, and it obviously involves a wide spectrum of belief when we are talking about continuationism or continuism or the charismatic or Pentecostal movement, it's a wide spectrum.

So therefore, there are folks like me who is—I am a cessationist, just as you are—but depending upon how aberrant or strange or frightening or dangerous the person's level of continuationism is, there are many who would be under the umbrella of continuationists or charismatic or Pentecostal that are dear friends that I enjoy sharing fellowship with them, and I've had them on this program, and they have even spoken at some

Reformed Baptist churches I am familiar with. Not the one where I'm a member, but some of my friends who are

Reformed Baptists have invited into their pulpits people who are not cessationists but share our love of the doctrines of sovereign grace.

So I'm assuming that neither of you—or none of you, I should say—are saying, if you are not a cessationist, we can have no fellowship with you, and if you are not a cessationist, you have to question your salvation.

And I'll start with you, David. Yes, of course.

There are continuationist Christians, charismatic Christians, the condition of our salvation is not whether or not we believe that the

Holy Spirit is giving the apostolic sign gifts today. The condition of our salvation is whether or not we trust in Jesus Christ as our

Lord and Savior, and that alone, of course. And so, of course, there are believers, solid

Jesus -loving Christians who have a different doctrine, a different pneumatology than we would hold.

I would say I believe that their pneumatology is wrong, just as we might say about someone who disagrees with us about an eschatological position.

But I do think that there is actually probably more at stake than one's eschatological position when we're talking about the person and work of the

Holy Spirit. There's more at stake there. And though I would say obviously this is a secondary issue, for the most part, you know, it could be brought into a primary type of issue.

It could be, especially when it comes to things like false prophecies and false prophets.

And there are many, many of those in the world today. So, you know, we interact in our film with some of the arguments that Sam Storms makes and some of the arguments that Wayne Grudem makes and that Michael Brown makes.

You know, we always wanted to interact with those guys, and so we have.

Our film is addressing what I believe are the greatest arguments that they have from the greatest defenders of charismatic theology that there are, the most solid.

We wanted not only to expose the truly false teachers out there like Benny Hinn and so many others,

Bill Johnson and Chris Vallotton and all these false prophets, but also to engage with our brothers in the faith who disagree with us on this matter.

And I would encourage you to ask the question, what's our goal?

I mean, our goal is to come to the knowledge of the truth, of course. That should be every

Christian's goal. And we are all semper reformanda, to be continually reforming, or even better than that, to be transformed by the renewal of the mind through the

Word of God. So, of course, all of us need to be sharpening our understanding of the

Bible and of God, and I believe that that's a tool that we've tried to make here, is to help people get sharpened in their understanding of the work of the

Holy Spirit. Yes, and Tim Cannon, just to let our audience know that I am very careful not to go overboard in my critique of my continuationist or charismatic or Pentecostal friends.

I had a dear friend who is now in eternity with Christ, Al Stein. He was not only a pastor in an

Assemblies of God congregation on Long Island, Neighborhood Assembly of God in Belmore, but he was also a bishop.

And over the years, when I first met him, he was an Arminian, and over the years, he became a full -blown

Five -Point Calvinist. And it was amazing that he was able to remain not only in the pastorate of the

Assemblies of God denomination, but become a bishop. They were so enamored and impressed with the high caliber of not only intelligence and wisdom and biblical literacy that Pastor Al possessed, but his godly walk.

But Al, over the years, and I can feel a lot freer to say this publicly because he's with the

Lord now, although he never became a cessationist, his views of continuationism began to become more and more narrow as the years went by, to the point where he actually, after seeing

John MacArthur's conference on Strange Fire, told me that he agreed with about 98 percent of the conference and was only in disagreement because, in his opinion, he thought there was too much broad brushing of continuationists.

But he reached the point where he could say very confidently that he thought the speakers at the

Strange Fire conference were right 98 percent of the time, which is something that you will very rarely find amongst a

Charismatic or Pentecostal. But I just thought I'd mention that to reinstate or reaffirm in the minds of our listeners that I'm not a

Charismatic or Pentecostal hater or basher and have very fond and close friendships with some in that ilk.

But having said that, Tim, the speakers that David were just listing, or should

I say the the representatives of continuationism, some of them are even highly esteemed

Reformed scholars and theologians like Sam Storms and Wayne Grudem.

Am I right? Yeah, that's correct. And you know, when we talk about Wayne Grudem, Sam Storms, D.

A. Carson, John Piper, every one of those guys has a place on my bookshelf. And I have a lot of books, and I've read all of those guys, and I cherish a lot of what they have said in their books over the years.

I mean, Wayne Grudem was my introduction into systematic theology, and I'll forever be grateful for him for that.

And I remember reading his section on the Holy Spirit and on the gifts.

And I remember thinking that this sounds right. And it was actually around that same time for me that strange fire had just happened.

And I was I kind of came in right after listening to the sessions and in God's Providence, here we are now.

But it was Tom Pennington's message on a case for cessationism that solidified it in my mind and in my studies that that cessationism is right, but also now to be where we're at, where Tom Pennington is now in our film and has a book that is partnered with the film.

But yeah, we love these men. I'm reminded that, you know, the wounds of a friend that these are they may not like the things we're saying, but we were praying that Charismatics and even our brothers, such as John Piper and Sam Storms and Grudem and Carson, will watch it and consider the things we're saying.

You know, we do we do show them respect in the film and love as brothers, and we don't hold them into the same light as a benny hen.

We do make that clarification in the film. So I think those are important clarifications to make because we do love these guys and they've they've been beneficial to the church over the years.

But I came up in the what is called the young, restless, reformed or the new

Calvinism movement. And this is when you're really starting to see that intermingling of reformed theology and continuationism.

And a lot of the stuff we're seeing today is the fruit of those years of this kind of new

Calvinist movement, which I believe had some problems. Yes. Don't you think that a lot of the reason we find more and more brothers and sisters in Christ who are charismatic and Pentecostal embracing the doctrines of sovereign grace nicknamed

Calvinism or reformed theology is because you have people from those backgrounds and in those denominations hearing the gospel of sovereign grace and embracing it.

And they just haven't reached a point where they can abandon their charismatic or continuationist views.

Less land fear. Don't you think that that is one of those

Catch -22 situations where we rejoice that formerly Arminian brothers in Christ have seen the light about the doctrines of grace, but that also means that very often the charismatic baggage, if you will, and I know that may insult some listeners, the charismatic baggage is going to be brought into reformed circles because of that.

Am I making sense there, Les? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's anytime somebody learns more about the

Lord and their theology becomes more biblical, that's certainly something we always want to rejoice in and be patient with them.

If somebody's improving in their understanding of the Lord, then that means that they are truly seeking truth.

And yeah, the the influence of those men has definitely been huge.

And, you know, I made a film called Calvinist, which was about the resurgence of reformed theology in my generation.

And the hero of Calvin is sort of the it all leads up sort of to personalities that were influencing people.

The hero in that movie is John Piper. So I have massive respect for John Piper, and it really kind of bothers me when people say nasty things about Piper.

You know, now that I'm a confessional guy and I talk more with confessional people, I think that some of the things

Piper has said are fantastic. And even the controversial things he said, I really appreciate them.

But for me, I kind of think that there's a sense in which they got these very respectable, theologically sound guys are in a way kind of more dangerous because it's easy to look at Benny Hinn.

And, you know, as long as you're just a little sensible, you can say, all right, that guy is crazy and I want nothing to do with this.

But then you see these other guys who are legitimizing it. And, you know, it's probably my bias because I've been editing this footage for over a year and just seen some of the craziest stuff.

But it's still kind of boggles my mind that like someone like Sam Storms, they say he says that he speaks in tongues every day, like he prays in tongues every day.

That that's just very hard for me to wrap my mind around that, because I know what speaking in the modern rendition of speaking in tongues is like, like, really?

Like, do we really think that this is what what the Holy Spirit inspires

Christians to do? This essentially just babbling. It's not what the

Bible is describing. It's and it just to me, I don't know, like, again, yeah, I don't want to insult anybody unnecessarily, but it's just I feel like.

It's so degrading to what we see the Spirit truly doing these miraculous, wonderful, beautiful things that we see in the

New Testament, and that we've we've sort of like because we want to defend some of these behaviors, we end up with like kind of an embarrassing thing that like churches are doing that.

So yeah, I know I'm getting more on the defense or the offense, I guess, but yeah, they're serious issues.

That's that's all I have to say. Yeah, one thing that always baffled me is how level -headed, intelligent, biblically literate brothers in Christ could not see that, especially

I'm talking now about the denominations within Pentecostalism, and if I'm not mistaken, every official or major Pentecostal denomination, as opposed to the charismatic movement, which is a much broader spectrum of often independent churches that have just embraced the modern -day sign gifts, but the

Pentecostal denominations are more typically rigid in their doctrinal positions, and most, if not all of them, believe that the speaking in tongues is the sign of the baptism of the

Holy Spirit, and the thing that's bizarre about that is why would that be the sign when it can be very easily faked?

It doesn't even make sense, if you follow what I'm saying. And any comments, David Loewy? Yeah, that's definitely a segment of the continuationist movement is

Pentecostalism, even oneness Pentecostalism, which is a whole other fair And of course, they would be far outside the body of Christ, and in fact, at least initially, they were excommunicated from the traditional

Pentecostal churches. Today, there's much more ecumenism going on between the traditional

Pentecostals and the oneness heretics, but there was a time when they were just as much—meaning the

Pentecostals, the traditional Pentecostals—were just as much opposed to the anti -Trinitarians as we are.

In fact, they may have been more opposed vociferously because they were more likely to have their churches infiltrated by them and have sheep stolen by them.

Yes, so to claim that the so -called speaking in tongues is the sign of regeneration instead of an actually changed life, the new life in Christ, is really—we just don't find that in the

Scripture. Well, of course, they make a distinction between regeneration and the baptism of the Holy Spirit. They don't believe that they're synonymous.

Yes. Well, either way, tongues was never a garbled, babbling language.

We don't see that anywhere in the Scripture. If tongues was the sign of regeneration, we should expect when an

American person, you know, Caucasian American person is regenerated, they suddenly start speaking in Chinese then, because that would be more accurate.

Yes, exactly. But, you know, we don't see that at all. As a matter of fact,

I mean, isn't the modern glossolalia really spitting in the face of those who labor, who spend their time with like Wycliffe Bible translators going into the jungles and all over the world to bring the gospel to foreign language, laboring for 15, 20 years to learn another tongue, and they learn it.

And it's something that is a part of their missionary endeavor. Like, well, we don't see people just suddenly speaking in some

Chinese or African dialect out of the blue. It's just not happening today.

And that's what tongues was in the New Testament. And so to call, to degrade tongues, like Les was saying, into some kind of babbling nonsense is actually what the pagans do.

That's Kundalini yoga. They do tongues as well. So, yeah,

I mean, there's—and as you said, Chris, you know, to have that as the sign when it can be so easily faked doesn't make any sense at all.

Let me try to take one question before we go to the midway break, and we may have to have a continued answer because we're approaching very rapidly.

Anthony in Hoshton, Georgia. As was mentioned early on in the show, have you men found difficulty in writing on this topic when popular men like Wayne Grudem and John Piper leave the door open on gifts and revelation, even if they personally do not claim any supernatural manifestation?

I have encountered several spiritually unstable people who looked at their writings and ran with it.

Does the documentary deal with this exact situation? This is not people claiming the

Virgin Mary appeared on a piece of toast, but notable pastors leaving it open.

And you already did touch on this, but as far as people running with some—the teachings of someone like a

John Piper, does the documentary address this specifically where—what very often has happened throughout history is that someone will take something said by a famous person, and when that person who is perhaps a hero of the faith dies, they take it to a further extreme.

And in fact, David Loewe, you likely very well know that that was the case with Martin Lloyd -Jones.

Since you were the creator or co -creator of Logic on Fire, there are many charismatics who claim they have as one of their heroes of continuationism

Martin Lloyd -Jones. But perhaps we'll have you start, David, and then we'll have the other guests respond after the break.

And this will have to be a brief response. Yeah, actually, so I love

Martin Lloyd -Jones so much, just to use him as an example.

And he did have some different views. Second -blessing views. Yeah, you know, what's interesting is that both cessationists and continuationists claim

Lloyd -Jones as one of their own. I'll read you a quote as my answer from the doctor himself.

He said this, A prophet was a person to whom truth was imparted by the Holy Spirit. A revelation or message or some insight into truth came into them and filled them with the

Spirit, and they were able to make utterances which were of benefit and profit to the Church. Surely it is clear that this, again, was temporary and for this good reason that in those early days of the

Church there were no New Testament scriptures. The truth had not yet been expounded in written words.

That's Lloyd -Jones on Christian Unity, page 189. Lloyd -Jones was a cessationist, though he had some different views on certain aspects of the ministry of the

Holy Spirit today. By and large, he would have held to a cessationist position.

We can answer more later if you want. Yeah, let's go to our midway break right now. And please be patient with us, folks, because the middle break is always longer than the other breaks in the show.

And that is because Grace Life Radio, 90 .1 FM in Lake City, Florida, requires of us a longer break in the middle because they are required by the

FCC to localize Iron Trip and Zion Radio geographically to Lake City, Florida, where they're physically located, and they do so with their own public service announcements and other local things that they air in the middle of the show.

So please use this time wisely and write down as much of the contact information as you can write down from as many of our advertisers as possible, because while Grace Life Radio is airing their public service announcements, we're airing our globally heard commercials.

So please write down as much of the contact information for our advertisers as possible so that you can more frequently and successfully respond to our advertisers.

And when you cannot purchase products, when you cannot use our advertisers' services, when you cannot visit their churches, please do one thing that every single

Iron Trip and Zion Radio listener can do. You can thank them for sponsoring

Iron Trip and Zion Radio if, indeed, you love the show and are grateful that there are generous people, churches, parachurch ministries, businesses, and other organizations who share the wealth that God has blessed them with with us, and they love the show so much that they want it to continue far into the future.

And if you're really grateful for that, please thank them. That will go a long way to remind them that their advertising dollars are not spent in vain with us, even if you can't purchase a product or use a service or visit a church.

But we hope that you will do all of those as often as it is possible. And also use this time to send in your questions to our three guests, thechrisarnson at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back, right after these messages from our sponsors.

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to g3min .org, that's g3min .org, and enter promo code g3isir.

That's g3isir for the 30 % discount. Chris Arnson and I look forward to seeing you all

Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God.

Make sure you stop by the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson while you're there.

Go to g3min .org and enter promo code g3isir for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible -believing, kingdom -building, devil -fighting church. We are devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in Scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image bearing prophets, priests, and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole counsel of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline, and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reis of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church. Believe. Build. Fight. PuritanPHX .com.

I'm Dr. Joseph Piper, President Emeritus and Professor of Systematic and Applied Theology at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary.

Every Christian who's serious about the Reformed faith and the Westminster Standards should have and use the eight -volume commentary on the theology and ethics of the

Westminster Larger Catechism titled Authentic Christianity by Dr. Joseph Morecraft.

It is much more than an exposition of the Larger Catechism. It is a thoroughly researched work that utilizes biblical exegesis as well as historical and systematic theology.

Dr. Morecraft is pastor of Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, and I urge everyone looking for a biblically faithful church in that area to visit that fine congregation.

For details on the eight -volume commentary, go to westminstercommentary .com, westminstercommentary .com.

For details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit heritagepresbyterianchurch .com,

heritagepresbyterianchurch .com. Please tell Dr. Morecraft and the saints at Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, that Dr.

Joseph Piper of Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary sent you. When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

New American Standard Bible were among my very first sponsors. It gives me joy knowing that many scholars and pastors in the

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio audience have been sticking with or switching to the

NASB. This is Daryl Bernard Harrison, co -host of the Just Thinking Podcast, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Tom Buck of First Baptist Church in Lindale, Texas, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Pastor Kent Keller of Faith Bible Church in Sharpsburg, Georgia, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Andrew Rapoport, the founder and executive director at Striving for Eternity Ministries, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Mark Rimaldi, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church of Greenbrier, Tennessee, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Christopher Cookston, pastor of Prineville Community Church in Prineville, Oregon, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. I'm Matt Tarr, pastor of High Point Baptist Church in Larksville, Pennsylvania, and the

NASB is my Bible of choice. Here's a great way for your church to help keep

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. Pastors, are your pew bibles tattered and falling apart?

Consider restocking your pews with the NASB, and tell the publishers you heard about them from Chris on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

Go to nasbible .com. That's nasbible .com to place your order.

If you love Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, one of the best ways you can help keep the show on the air is by supporting our advertisers.

One such faithful advertiser who really believes in what Chris Hansen is doing is

Daniel P. Patafuco, serious injury lawyer and Christian apologist.

Dan is the president and founder of the Historical Bible Society. Their mission?

To foster belief in the credibility of scripture as the written word of God. They go to various churches, schools, and institutions to publicly display a rare collection of biblical texts along with a fascinating presentation by Mr.

Patafuco, demonstrating the reliability of scripture. To advance the cause of the gospel, they created a beautiful, perfect facsimile of the genealogy of Jesus Christ from the original engravings contained in a first edition 1611

King James Bible. This 17th century hand -engraved chart shows the family tree of Jesus Christ going back to Adam and Eve.

This book is complete with gorgeous full -size illustrations of Noah's Ark and the

Tower of Babel and an explanation of why the genealogy of Jesus is so important for his claims to the throne of the universe.

Originals of this work are in museums and nobody has ever made it accessible to the public in a large book form before.

You can have your own copy of this 44 -page genealogy book for a donation of $35 or more.

Visit historicalbiblesociety .org. That's historicalbiblesociety .org.

Thanks for helping to keep Iron Sharpens Iron Radio on the air. This is

Pastor Bill Sousa, Grace Church at Franklin, here in the beautiful state of Tennessee.

Our congregation is one of a growing number of churches who love and support Iron Sharpens Iron Radio financially.

Grace Church at Franklin is an independent, autonomous body of believers which strives to clearly declare the whole counsel of God as revealed in scripture through the person and work of our

Lord Jesus Christ. And of course, the end of which we strive is the glory of God.

If you live near Franklin, Tennessee, and Franklin is just south of Nashville, maybe 10 minutes, or you are visiting this area, or you have friends and loved ones nearby, we hope you will join us some

Lord's Day in worshiping our God and Savior. Please feel free to contact me if you have more questions about Grace Church at Franklin.

Our website is gracechurchatfranklin .org. That's gracechurchatfranklin .org.

This is Pastor Bill Sousa wishing you all the richest blessings of our sovereign

Lord, God, Savior, and King Jesus Christ today and always.

Getting a driver's license, running a cash register, flipping burgers, passing sixth grade.

Do you know what they all have in common? They all require training, assessments, and certifications. But do you know what requires no training at all?

Becoming a parent. My name is A .M. Brewster. I'm the president of Truth, Love, Parent, and host of its award -winning podcast.

I've been a biblical family counselor since the early 2000s, and what I've discovered is that the majority of Christian parents have never been biblically equipped to do the work of the ministry in their homes.

That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders, and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

Please visit us at truthloveparent .com. Hi, this is

John Sampson, pastor of King's Church in Peoria, Arizona. Taking a moment of your day to talk about Chris Arnson and the

Iron Sharpens Iron podcast. I consider Chris a true friend and a man of high integrity. He's a skilled interviewer who's not afraid to ask the big penetrating questions, while always defending the key doctrines of the

Christian faith. I've always been happy to point people to this podcast, knowing it's one of the very few safe places on the internet where folk won't be led astray.

I believe this podcast needs to be heard far and wide. This is a day of great spiritual compromise, and yet God has raised

Chris up for just such a time, and knowing this, it's up to us as members of the body of Christ to stand with such a ministry in prayer and in finances.

I'm pleased to do so, and would like to ask you to prayerfully consider joining me in supporting

Iron Sharpens Iron financially. Would you consider sending either a one -time gift or even becoming a regular monthly partner with this ministry?

I know it would be a huge encouragement to Chris if you would. All the details can be found at ironsharpensironradio .com

where you can click support. That's ironsharpensironradio .com. I'm Dr.

Tony Costa, Professor of Apologetics and Islam at Toronto Baptist Seminary. I'm thrilled to introduce to you a church where I've been invited to speak and have grown to love,

Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, Long Island, New York, pastored by Rich Jensen and Christopher McDowell.

It's such a joy to witness and experience fellowship with people of God, like the dear saints at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Quorum, who have an intensely passionate desire to continue digging deeper and deeper into the unfathomable riches of Christ in His Holy Word, and to enthusiastically proclaim

Christ Jesus the King and His doctrines of sovereign grace in Suffolk County, Long Island, and beyond.

I hope you also have the privilege of discovering this precious congregation and receive the blessing of being showered by their love, as I have.

For more information on Hope Reform Baptist Church, go to hopereformedli .net,

that's hopereformedli .net, or call 631 -696 -5711.

That's 631 -696 -5711. Tell the folks at Hope Reform Baptist Church of Quorum, Long Island, New York, that you heard about them from Tony Costa on Iron Sharpens Iron.

Welcome back. This is Chris Orensen. If you just tuned us in, we are talking about a very important documentary that is soon to be released and debuted next week at the

G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia. The documentary is titled

Cessationist, and I have the three creators of this documentary, David Loewe, Les Lanphier, and Tim Cannon on the program today.

But before I return to our discussion, I just have a couple of very important announcements to make. Please, folks, if you love this show and you do not want it to disappear from the airwaves, please go to ironsharpensironradio .com,

click support, then click click to donate now. You could donate instantly with a debit or credit card in that fashion.

If you prefer a snail mail, sending in a physical check to a physical address the old -fashioned way from your post office, there will also be a physical address that appears on your screen where you can mail your checks made payable to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

If you want to advertise, whether it's your church, parachurch ministry, your business, your professional practice like a law firm, a medical firm, or perhaps it's just a special event that you want to promote, whatever it is, as long as it's compatible with what

I believe, I would love to help you launch an ad campaign as quickly as possible because we're just as much in urgent need of your advertising dollars as we are in your donations.

We have never bounced back after the insanity of the COVID mandates imposed upon our citizens by the federal and local governments.

Simultaneously, when that occurred, the giving to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio plummeted. And even though these mandates for now have been lifted, we never bounced back.

We never saw a return to the giving that we once enjoyed to this program. So please, we need your help more than ever before.

Go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now. And keep in mind,

I never want anybody in my audience to give less money to your own church where you're a member in order to bless

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio with a gift. Don't cut into the finances that you have set aside for your

Lord's Day giving to your own church to bless us. Please never do that. And if you're really struggling to make ends meet and survive, well, wait until you're more financially stable and back on your feet before you send us a gift.

The Bible is clear that we're commanded as Christians to provide for our church and our family, and we're not obviously commanded to support

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio or any other parachurch organization. But if you love this program and you are financially blessed above and beyond your ability to support your church and family, you have extra money for benevolent, recreational, and trivial purposes, please use some of that money to help us exist.

If indeed you love the show, go to ironsharpensironradio .com, click support, then click, click to donate now.

I also want to remind you, if you're a man in ministry leadership, you are invited to the upcoming

Iron Sharpens Iron Radio Free Pastors Luncheon to be held on Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m.

to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania. The guest speaker is my friend

Pastor Jeff Noblitt, the senior pastor of Grace Life Church of the

Shoals, one of the largest sovereign grace -believing congregations in the United States, who is also a wonderful and benevolent brother, and his congregation financially supports churches all over the world.

I am so looking forward to hearing Jeff preach again at the Iron Sharpens Iron Radio biannual

Free Pastors Luncheon. And not only is this free to all men in ministry leadership, where you get admission for free and eat lunch for free and share fellowship and fun and rest and relaxation with your colleagues in ministry for free, you'll also leave that building of Church of the

Living Christ, you'll leave that building with a heavy sack of free brand new books that have been donated by Christian publishers all over the

United States and United Kingdom to bless the pastors in attendance, and they've been doing this since the 1990s, ever since my precious late wife

Julie first launched these luncheons with me. So please, if you're able to attend

Thursday, October 5th, 11 a .m. to 2 p .m. at Church of the Living Christ in Loisville, Pennsylvania, send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put pastors luncheon registration in the subject line. That's chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Last but not least, if you're not a member of a biblically faithful, theologically sound, doctrinally solid

Christ -honoring church, no matter where you live on the planet Earth, I have extensive lists spanning the globe of biblically faithful churches, and I've helped many people in our audience all over the world find churches, sometimes even within just a couple of minutes from where they live, and that may be you too.

I may be able to help you no matter where in the world you live if you do not have a biblically faithful church home. Just send me an email to chrisarnson at gmail .com

and put I need a church in the subject line. That's also the email address where you can send in a question to our guests today,

David Lovey, Les Lanphier, and Tim Cannon on their documentary, Cessationist, chrisarnson at gmail .com,

and we have what might be the most important question of all from a listener in Knoxville, Tennessee.

In fact, I'll give his full name because he's such a dear friend and I want to promote his church whenever I can.

His name is Pastor Claude Ramsey, and he has a question specifically,

I believe, for Les Lanphier. Is it true that Les Lanphier and Claude Ramsey are going to be arm wrestling at the

G3 conference? Also, what is the prize for the winner of the arm wrestling contest? So, Les, is that true?

Les, are you there? Oh, I have you guys on mute again. I'm sorry. Am I on?

Yes, you are. I'm sorry. I keep forgetting to unmute you guys. Uh, yeah. So, we went on Claude's podcast yesterday, and he suggested this competition.

I'm having real trouble thinking through the logistics of this because if I lose the arm wrestling competition, he said that I need to say that I think something along the lines of Baptists are better than Presbyterians.

I just, I don't know. I don't know if I can bring myself to say such a thing. So, it's going to be difficult.

So, I still need to think about it. I need to figure out how to weasel my way out of this, I think. But I've been lifting weights just in case it has to happen.

Well, thanks for the comment or question, Claude, and thank you for wasting much of our valuable time with us.

That's right. But Pastor Claude Ramsey is pastor of Reformata Baptist Church of Knoxville, Tennessee.

That's spelled F, I'm sorry, R -E -F -O -R -M -A -T -A Baptist Church of Knoxville, Tennessee.

So, if you happen to be visiting Knoxville or live in that area or have family, friends, and loved ones in that area, look up that church, which is actually technically, yeah, it is

Knoxville, I'm sorry. Seymour, Tennessee is where Claude lives. But Knoxville is where the church is located.

I have been there for a worship service and loved every second of it. Claude Ramsey is truly,

I'm not exaggerating, I believe he's one of the most powerful preachers I've ever heard, and that includes some very famous celebrity preachers even within the

Reformed faith. Claude is somebody who could stand toe -to -toe with the best, and I really cherish his friendship.

Let's go to some more questions before we run out of time and are unable to ask some of our listeners questions.

We have Cindy in Findlay, Ohio, and I have to enlarge the email because it's microscopic.

While I enlarge this, if you want to join Cindy with a question of your own, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com.

Good evening, Dave, Tim, Les, and Chris. Just a quick thank you for being on the show today and for producing the movie

Cessationist. I have watched other productions such as Faith on Fire, which I absolutely loved,

Spirit of Truth, and others. Great job and much appreciated, fellas. I listen to Chris's show daily at every opportunity and love it.

I also listen to Matt Slick's live call -in show. Matt is a presuppositionalist

Christian apologist who started Christian apologetic research ministry. It was when

I started listening to his show that I first learned about the doctrines of grace. I've learned a great deal, but I don't agree with him in that he is not a cessationist.

He is not, however, a charismatic and feels that charismatics have gone to extremes in their use and abuse of these sign gifts, so -called.

I am a cessationist, although I do believe there can be times where God will do a special work.

I believe I recall an instance that may have involved John Barros, the hero in Florida who fights for the unborn.

Maybe it was not that particular instance, but I remember a story of a man who heard the gospel in his language as he was waiting inside an abortion clinic.

Someone outside was relaying the gospel in his foreign language. He heard it and stopped the abortion, and the story goes on, if I recall correctly, no one knew this particular language and the person who was explaining the gospel had no notion that this was happening until afterwards.

That was a work of God. So, with that said, and he,

I'm sorry, Cindy provides a link for CARM, which is

Matt Slick's website. Okay, well, that brings up a question, because it really wasn't a question that she asked.

Don't we have to be careful about anecdotal evidence, and we'll start with less landfare this time.

Yeah, well, so I think one of the clarifications that needs to be made is that cessationism isn't saying that God can't perform miracles.

We're specifically talking about the gifts being given to individual people, so miracle workers, because when you look at the

New Testament, people were actually given the ability to do these miraculous works at will.

So, you could touch someone or speak over them, and they would be healed, or you could speak in tongues.

In the book of Corinthians, 1 Corinthians, people were getting up, and they were speaking in tongues, and Paul was calling for order because so many people had this miraculous ability to speak in other languages that they were doing it in a way that was out of order.

So, that's specifically what we're saying has come to an end, this idea that God has given men the ability to do these things in order to validate their message in a time when the scriptures had not yet been completed, so people still needed revelations.

So, are you familiar with the specific instance that Cindy and Philly, Ohio?

I'm not, and we would, I mean, I would be very suspicious of it, but if I were to witness a man speaking in a language he did not know, seemingly miraculously, and then somebody were to hear the gospel and be saved, that wouldn't actually disprove cessationism.

It would, because is this person, unless the person was saying, God has given me the gift of tongues, and now

I can travel all over the world, any place that I want, and I am now able to speak in a language that I never learned.

So, even if, so, you know, with healing especially, I mean, that's the easiest thing to point to, is we know for a fact that God says that he will heal people.

If we lay hands on the sick, we pray for them, God says he will heal. You know, it's not a guarantee that every time we do that, he'll heal them, but this is a way that God seemingly works supernaturally through his people to bring about healings, but that isn't the same thing as the gift of healing that we see

Jesus and the apostles practicing. So, if a miracle happens, then we say, well, of course miracles happen,

God is a supernatural God, but that's different than saying I have the gift of healing, the gift of tongues, the gift of prophecy, and prophecy especially, because what is prophecy but new revelation from God, and you have a huge problem if you believe that the canon of Scripture is closed and a person can still prophesy, you really have to figure out, you know, which one of those two things do you actually believe?

Is God still speaking or is he done speaking? Yeah, there is an inconsistency or a paradox in that there are some, not all, there are continuationists who do not believe in a closed canon, but there are continuationists who do, and yet they put what they would call modern -day prophecy and words of knowledge in some kind of a different category that can be more sloppy and inaccurate, you know what

I'm saying?

I can still remember watching Pat Robertson on the 700

Club, and I always, even as a new believer, watching him and listening to him, always thought it was comical that he would be sitting there claiming to be hearing from God himself, and he would be saying, there's a listener who has,

I believe it's a lump on their left lung, it may be their appendix, and I'm not sure about the size of it, it's possibly the size of a peach, and I'm thinking to myself, what is this guy getting interference from the fluorescent lighting in the building that's preventing the

Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity, from penetrating exactly what he wants to communicate into this man's brain?

I mean, that's where it becomes nonsensical, doesn't it? Well, the funny thing about that whole idea, the whole prophecy thing, and specifically what you're bringing up, how is it that God is still speaking, and yet we don't staple that to the back of the

Bible? I was a cessationist when I got on board with the project, but I didn't really know much about it.

It was just like, all the people that I respect are, and also I think these gifts that I see are pretty silly, so cessation doesn't make sense.

But then when I started studying it, I realized people like Wayne Grudem and all these, there's brilliant men that defend these things, but Wayne Grudem himself would say, don't staple this to the back of your

Bible, because it's different, and then they have these two different categories for revelation. There's the Bible, and then there's what

God speaks to his people on a daily basis. And when you hear them say things like this, it's like, wow, there must be some brilliant argument, because it seems incoherent on its face.

God speaks authoritatively sometimes, and then something less than authoritatively other times. Well, that doesn't seem to make sense, but I'm sure these guys can come up with an argument that's really going to just bring it all together and make it all make sense.

And that's the thing about all of it, is they don't. Yes, they have arguments.

Yes, they pull scriptures, and yes, they build a case, but it still ends up being incoherent at the end of the day.

Why isn't the thing that he's speaking to charismatics, that God is speaking to these charismatics, why isn't that as authoritative as scripture?

There is no actual answer. They say things that sound like answers, but there's no coherent reason why one is different than the other as far as authority goes, which was shocking to me.

David Loewe, go ahead. Who is this? Oh, this is

Tim. Really quickly, I wanted to jump in just to say, you know, in the time we took in the process of making this film and the research,

I got the joy, if you will, to watch a lot of the charismatic stuff.

So I got to sift through all of that hours and hours of that and less got to watch all the good stuff.

So I was starting to figure out and find, yeah, there's these guys that we love and respect for their

Calvinism and their reformed leanings. But then when I could go from that guy to Benny Hinn in like two moves from their friendships and their tightness with this.

And I'm not saying you can't, you know, know people or that guilt by association kind of thing.

But but when I've seen them on stage together and and they're they're partnering in certain other areas outside of these reformed circles, it gets real muddy and it gets real.

It was really concerning for me to see that and how quickly I could make those leaps to some of these guys who

I definitely would not consider brethren. So that those kinds of things were really problematic when we think about I think it kind of goes back earlier.

So I remember saying at the church I came from years ago when I was kind of in this young wrestlers reformed movement was we're charismatic with the seat belt on is what the pastor said.

And but I'm like, well, what can you do with the seat belt? I can lean over and I can take it off. It's you know, it's or the idea that the door is cracked.

We have the door open. Well, I can kick it wide open or I can, you know, all these different kind of analogies for the different views of continuationism.

Oh, the windows cracked open, the doors cracked open. Well, you can open the window all the way and you can fling the door open or take the entire door off.

So these are problems. And we really saw those when we were making this film.

Yes. And David Loewy, we haven't heard from you for a while. And by the way, that was by design.

But David, let's let's get into because this is really the most vital reason for the existence of your documentary,

I believe, the most dangerous aspects of the continuationist position, because I'm sure most of us, although we are passionately perhaps opposed to a belief in modern day tongue speaking, that is not the thing that's going to say,

I never want this person in my home again. I don't want this person to have access to my children or my precious beloved fellow congregants in my church because they are dangerous.

They are wolves in sheep's clothing, et cetera. We just politely disagree with them over that as strongly as we may disagree over that, because I'm not saying it's unimportant, but it's not like the earth shattering thing that some of the other aspects of continuationism often provides.

And if you could, David, tell us what's really the reason, the primary reason that people need to be listening with biblically informed ears and prayerful hearts and minds to the warnings about this whole movement.

Yeah, thanks. I would agree with you that though false tongues, false manifestation of tongues is grievous, but certainly fake healings does a lot more damage to vulnerable people who are in the most desperate places in their lives, and fake healers are trying to come and do hocus pocus over them.

I mean, that does a ton of damage, but I would even go so far as to say false prophecy does even more damage than that.

I think that that is the worst aspect of the charismatic movement and charismatic theology is subject that we've been talking about that you guys have brought up, which is what is prophecy.

We have a direct quote from Wayne Grudem in our film where he says,

I see new prophecy as simply this, this is the definition, something that God brings to mind.

That's just prophecy is something that God brings to mind. That makes everyone a prophet, every single human being, well, at least that they think he brought something to mind.

That's exactly right. Well, and doesn't Jesus say that the Holy Spirit is going to bring his words to mind?

So that should happen in the life of every Christian, every true

Christian who has the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit does work inside of that Christian by bringing the words of scripture to mind.

So by Wayne Grudem's definition, like you said, then everybody would be that, but that's not the actual definition of this, of prophecy in the scripture.

And I think, you know, I'll tell you just a quick story. I have some friends that know the

Grudems well, Margaret and Wayne, Margaret is Wayne's wife. And they had had a very, very old tape on cassette that they gave to me to listen to where Wayne was teaching at a prophecy conference at a small church.

And I mean, the things that he was saying at that conference were just, I was actually,

I was worried when I first got this tape, I was thinking like, wow, this guy is the one who all the other guys quote from.

Sam Storm says, I get my definitions from Wayne Grudem. So I was thinking like, man, he's going to come with some incredible, very difficult, hard to assail argument.

And we're going to have to just shut this movie down once I listen to this guy. And I listened to the hour and a half of his lecture.

And what I learned from it is that his position is quite weak, very, very weak.

So that a person doesn't even need to be an expert on the subject to utterly demolish what

Wayne Grudem was saying. So many presuppositions, so many really bad presuppositions, but that one perhaps being the worst, that somehow prophecy has changed in its definition from the old

Testament to the new Testament. And that new Testament prophets or new Testament prophecy is now fallible because it's mixed in with the prophet's mind.

Whereas the old Testament prophecy was simply God speaking a word through the prophet and preserving his word.

So what do we believe then that God is somehow less faithful to his word in the new

Testament than he was to protecting it in the old? Um, yeah, I think it's an untenable position for, for a thinking

Christian to take. It's undefensible. It's untenable. And, uh, yeah, so, so that really is the danger with false prophets all over the place.

But Jesus says that that was going to happen, that there would be many false Christ and many false prophets that would arise.

And, and I think, I mean, uh, you know, I'm, I'm pre -millennial, man.

I think things are going to get— Show's over. I'm sorry. I'm pulling the plug. Just kidding.

I'm still here. I'm still here. That's okay. Let's, let's, let's write the book. Those guys are, are,

I'm ill guys. Uh, I'm definitely a pre -mill guy.

Um, you know, but I think this is what's going to happen in the last days is that more and more fake prophets are going to rise up.

And, uh, and that's what we see with our own eyes right now. I mean, whether that means Christ is coming back, uh, in our lifetime or not, who knows?

Only God knows. By the way, I'm sure you're aware that, and I'm not a post -millennialist, I'm an optimistic amillennialist, but even post -millennialists believe that we could be plunged into centuries of darkness where things like, uh, many false teachers beyond our imagination are rising up and so on.

The post -millennialists don't believe in a straight line pointing upward where it's just always progressively better.

They just believe that ultimately things will be better. But that's just my two cents defending my post -millennial brethren, of which

I am not. So, um, but we have to go to our final break. And, uh, if anybody, and there are a couple of people waiting to have their questions asked, uh, if you have a question that you want to submit and get in line, our email address is chrisornsen at gmail .com.

Don't go away. We're going to be right back. The debate topic is gay

Christian, a biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's church. So come join us for the sixth future of Christendom conference.

The event will take place at spooky nook sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and we'll run from Friday evening through all day

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the independence reformed Bible church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the gospel at war in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the

Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits at the future of Christendom .org.

James White of Altenbega ministries here. I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend, Chris Arnson of iron sharpens, iron radio, and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again, for the

G three national conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd on a theme that I've been preaching, teaching, writing about and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Votie, Balcom, Paul washer, virtual Walker, Scott annual, and Josh vice founder of G three ministries.

And there's more great news. Chris Arnson of iron sharpens, iron radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

Go to G three men .org that's G three men .org and enter promo code

G three I S I R that's G three I S I R for the 30 % discount.

Chris Arnson. I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday, the 23rd, the

G three national conference in Atlanta, Georgia on the sovereignty of God. Make sure you stop by the iron sharpens, iron radio exhibitor booth and say hi to Chris Arnson.

While you're there, go to G three men .org and enter promo code G three I S I R for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

I'm Brian McLaughlin, president of the secure comm group and an enthusiastic supporter of Chris Arnson's iron sharpens, iron radio program.

The secure comm group provides the highest level of security, closer to television access control and communication systems for Manhattan's top residential buildings, as well as churches, commercial properties, municipalities and more.

We custom install exactly what you need to protect yourself, including digital recording, offsite viewing and connectivity from most smart devices from simple code activated systems to the latest technology using facial recognition.

The secure comm group has it. We also provide the latest in intercom and IP telephone systems.

In addition, we provide superior networking platforms. We'll create, maintain and secure your local network, whether it's a wifi or hardwire network, we'll implement the latest secured firewall and point solutions and cloud backup.

I would love to have the honor and privilege of helping protect the lives and property of iron sharpens, iron radio listeners and their associates.

For more details on how the secure comm group may be of service to you with the very latest in security innovations, call 718 -353 -3355.

That's 718 -353 -3355 or visit securecommgroup .com.

That's securecommgroup .com. This is Brian McLaughlin of the secure comm group joining

Chris Arnson's family of advertisers to keep iron sharpens iron radio on the air.

Puritan Reformed is a Bible believing kingdom building devil fighting church. We're devoted to upholding the apostolic doctrine and practice preserved in scripture alone.

Puritan Reformed teaches men to rule and lead as image bearing prophets, priests and kings.

We teach families to worship together as families. Puritan is committed to teaching the whole council of God so that the earth will be filled with the knowledge of God as the waters cover the sea.

We sing the Psalms, teach the law, proclaim the gospel, make disciples, maintain discipline and exalt

Christ. This is Pastor David Reese of Puritan Reformed in Phoenix, Arizona.

Join us in the glorious cause of advancing Christ's crown and covenant over the kings of the earth.

Puritan Reformed Church, believe, build, fight. Puritanphx .com.

It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron radio listeners from all over the world.

Here's Joe Reilly, a listener in Ireland who wants you to know about a guest on the show he really loves hearing interviewed,

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. I'm Joe Reilly, a faithful Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener here in Atai in County Kildare, Ireland.

Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

Dr. Joe Moorcraft. If you've been blessed by Iron Sharpens Iron radio, Dr. Moorcraft and Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia are largely to thank since they are one of the program's largest financial supporters.

Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming is in Forsyth County, a part of the Atlanta metropolitan area.

Heritage is a thoroughly biblical church, unwaveringly committed to Westminster standards, and Dr.

Joe Moorcraft is the author of an eight -volume commentary on the larger catechism. Heritage is a member of the

Hanover Presbytery, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone, and tracing its roots and heritage back to the great protestant reformation of the 16th century.

Heritage maintains and follows the biblical truth and principles proclaimed by the reformers, scripture alone, grace alone, faith alone,

Christ alone, and God's glory alone. Their primary goal is the worship of the triune God that continues in eternity.

For more details on Heritage Presbyterian Church of Cumming, Georgia, visit HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com,

that's HeritagePresbyterianChurch .com, or call 678 -954 -7831, that's 678 -954 -7831.

If you visit, tell them Joe O 'Reilly, Iron Sharpens Iron radio listener, and Matti in County Kildare, Ireland, sends you.

Hi, I'm Buzz Taylor. Chris Arnson of Iron Sharpens Iron radio has had a long -time partnership with our friends at CVBBS, which stands for Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

They specialize in supplying reformed and Puritan books and Bibles at discount prices that make them affordable for everyone.

CVBBS has been a family -owned book service since 1987, operating out of Carlisle, Pennsylvania.

They seek to bring you the best available Christian books and Bibles at the best possible prices.

Unlike other book sites, they make no effort to provide every book that is available or popular because, frankly, much of what is being printed is not worth your time.

That means you can get to the good stuff faster. It also means you don't have to worry about being assaulted by the pornographic, heretical, and otherwise faith -insulting materials promoted by the secular book vendors.

Browse the pages at ease, shop at your leisure, and purchase with confidence at Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service.

Order online at cvbbs .com. That's cvbbs .com.

Or you can order by phone at 1 -800 -656 -0231.

That's 1 -800 -656 -0231. Please let our friends at CVBBS know that you heard about them on Iron Sharpens Iron radio.

Hello, my name is Anthony Eugenio and I'm one of the pastors at Hope Reform Baptist Church in Corum, New York and also the host of the reformrookie .com

website. I want you to know that if you enjoy listening to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show like I do, you can now find it on the

Apple's iTunes app by typing Iron Sharpens Iron radio in the search bar. You no longer have to worry about missing a show or a special guest because you're in your car or still at work.

Just subscribe on the iTunes app and listen to the Iron Sharpens Iron radio show at any time, day or night.

Please be sure to also give it a good review and pass it along to anyone who would benefit from the teaching and the many solidly reformed guests that Chris Arnzen has on the show.

Truth is so hard to come by these days, so don't waste your time with fluff or fake news. Subscribe to the

Iron Sharpens Iron radio podcast right now. And while you're at it, you can also sign up for the reformrookie .com

podcast and visit our website and the YouTube page. We are dedicated to teaching Christian theology from a reformed

Baptist perspective to beginners in the faith as well as seasoned believers. From Keech's Catechism and the

Doctrines of Grace to the Olivet Discourse and the Book of Leviticus, the Reform Rookie Podcast and YouTube channel is sure to have something to offer everyone seeking biblical truth.

And finally, if you're looking to worship in a reformed church that holds to the 1689

London Baptist Confession of Faith, please join us at Hope Reformed Baptist Church in Coram, New York.

Again, I'm Pastor Anthony Invinio, and thanks for listening. A Parent Generation Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops, and local hangouts,

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world -class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray, or all of the above.

For details, call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

That's liyfc .org. James White of Alpha Omega Ministries here.

If you've watched my Dividing Line webcast often enough, you know I have a great love for getting Bibles and other documents vital to my ministry rebound to preserve and ensure their longevity.

And besides that, they feel so good. I'm so delighted I discovered Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding.

No radio ad will be long enough to sing their praises sufficiently, but I'll give it a shot. Jeffrey Rice of Post -Tenebrous

Lux is a remarkably gifted craftsman and artisan. All his work is done by hand from the cutting to the pleating of corners to the perimeter stitching.

Jeffrey uses the finest in buttery soft imported leathers in a wide variety of gorgeous colors, like the turquoise goatskin tanned in Italy used for my

Nessie Olin 28th edition with a navy blue goatskin inside liner and the electric blue goatskin from a

French tannery used to rebind a Reformation study Bible I used as a gift. The silver gilding he added on the page edges has a stunning mirror finish resembling highly polished chrome.

Jeffrey will customize your rebinding to your specifications and even emboss your logo into the leather, making whatever he rebinds a one -of -a -kind work of art.

For more details on Post -Tenebrous Lux Bible rebinding, go to ptlbiblerebinding .com.

That's ptlbiblerebinding .com. Welcome back.

We have Deshaun in Roosevelt, Long Island, New York, who has a question for my guests.

And Deshaun asks, what category would you place this in when a pastor says something like,

I was going to teach on Hebrews tonight, but the

Lord has pressed it upon my heart to change texts to Romans, and so on.

Is this a false confession of a modern -day spiritual revelation, or is this something that God legitimately does in our day?

And let's start with, go ahead. Go ahead. Who is this?

This is Tim again. I'm just jumping in. That's fine. Go ahead. You know,

I heard Pastor Jim one time say something along the lines of, well, where was

God and the Holy Spirit through that whole previous week of preparing that sermon? You know, those are the things that come to my mind when

I hear someone talk about, well, and that's a common thing that I've heard come up in charismatic churches, that God laid this on my heart to speak on this.

You know something, though? I've heard that from Reformed Baptist pastors. And I don't necessarily—I mean, maybe

I am on a different page than you on this, but I've never been alarmed by that, because I don't really believe that they are claiming a divine revelation.

Sure. And alarmed may not be the word I'm looking for, but definitely, you know, because I believe the

Holy Spirit has been with that pastor who spent that previous week preparing his message.

So those are the things that kind of come to my mind when I think about that specific saying, and the other guys might have a different perspective on it.

You know where it never happens? Is this less? It never happens. Yeah, it never happens in a Presbyterian church.

We got all kinds of elders that hold people accountable to preach what they were supposed to preach.

But yeah, I mean, the wording there is clearly not—I don't think the person is claiming that they're hearing from God.

And you know, I think it's appropriate to speak that way sometimes, that the Lord is leading me in this direction.

And people say that in all kinds of different ways, prompting me, you know, whatever. And that's why we need to be really careful in the way that we say things like that, because a lot of people mean like, the

Lord—I feel like the Lord is providentially pushing me in this direction, and they'll use language like,

God told me to do this or that. Yeah, well, the questioner just said, God has placed it upon my heart.

I've even— Right. I've actually—and he didn't even say he definitely placed it upon his heart. He said, I believe God may have placed—I think,

I'm certain that if I were to have a recording of everything I've ever said, I'm sure that I said something like that to somebody.

Like, for instance, if I approached somebody who was a stranger to me in church and, you know, to say, you know,

I believe the Lord's pressed it upon my heart to ask you how you're doing today or something. You know, I mean, I wasn't claiming any kind of divine revelation by saying that.

Yeah, I guess I'm just trying to say that it can be a blurry thing, so we just always want to be careful.

But as it's stated in the question, it doesn't sound like the person is claiming direct revelation from God.

It's more of, like, providentially leading me in this direction. But just ecclesiastically or ecclesiologically,

I would say it's probably not the best idea to just, like, grab a new text on the spot like that. You know, by the way,

Les, I definitely don't believe that Presbyterians receive divine revelation today, because you're still baptizing babies.

I saw it coming a mile away. Well, thank you,

Deshawn and Roosevelt Long Island. Please keep spreading the word about Iron Trip and Zion Radio in Roosevelt and beyond, and say hello to Eddie Murphy, if you ever bump into him.

That's his hometown. Well, was, anyway. Before we run out of time,

David Lovey, please give us some of your thoughts that you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today before the show goes off the air.

Oh, boy. Well, thanks for having us today. I guess what

I'd like to leave with your listeners is that we should always follow wherever the

Scripture leads, wherever the truth leads us, even if it challenges our presuppositions, even if we grew up to think something different, when the

Word tells us very plainly certain things and we need to follow it. Like Luther said at the

Diet of Worms, my conscience is captive to the Word of God.

So unless I can be convinced by Scripture and plain reason, here I stand.

I can do no other. God help me. And so, you know, we would encourage all of your listeners, not just cessationists, but also charismatics to watch our film with an open mind and see if the arguments that we present actually are able to convince you.

Because, you know, we've heard so many people say there's no biblical argument for the doctrine of cessationism.

And it's simply not true. I have 42 hours of interview footage filled with biblical arguments for the doctrine of cessationism.

So, you know, I would just challenge all of your listeners to watch the movie.

If you can defeat it with the Bible, then good for you. You can try.

But if you can't, then you must submit to it and become a cessationist.

And Tim Cannon, why don't you give your summary statements? Yeah, thank you.

Thank you again for having us on and letting us talk about this project. Someone's mic is on, and they're putting ice in their cup.

And so, you know, we spent two years of our lives working on this, and we've grown together as brothers.

And as cessationists, I think we're stronger in our beliefs in the doctrine.

So for me, it's important that people would take the time and watch it, consider these things, and like David said, watch with an open mind, but also watch with an open

Bible. We found the best men that we could get our hands on to interview, and there were so many that we wanted to get that we ran out of time and money to be able to continue.

In the film, you have to kind of keep it to a two -hour minimum. So there are other things in the works coming down the pike in relation to this.

We'll share that another time, but we just pray that people would watch it and consider the things that we've put together.

And Les Lanphier, your summary thoughts? Yeah, well, when we talk about God, when we talk about each member of the

Trinity, you can't divorce the works that a person does from the person themselves.

So when we talk about the Father, we also talk about the things the Father does, you know, especially with the

Son. If you talk about Jesus doing different things, you're talking about a different Jesus.

And so that has to be true of the Holy Spirit as well. So if we're making claims about the

Holy Spirit, His activity today, things He's doing that are inconsistent with the actual person of the

Holy Spirit, then we're actually blaspheming. And it's a bigger deal,

I think, than a lot of people want to give it credit. So having a proper pneumatology study of the

Holy Spirit, it's important. It is the difference between truly representing

God and misrepresenting God. So we do hope people will watch the movie, take the argument seriously, you know, and engage.

And really, at the end of the day, the reason it matters is because rightly understanding who

God is glorifies Him, and that's the reason we were created. Amen.

David Loewe, where can our listeners watch this movie if they can't make it to the G3 conference? Yes, well, the movie's going to go up on Vimeo.

We're working on getting it onto Amazon right now. We have right now a website, cessationistmovie .com,

that redirects to the G3 website for those who wish to buy the deluxe edition. It will go take the cessationistmovie .com

right to G3, but that website might not always go to G3. We're still working out some different things.

So if they go on Vimeo, for sure, you'll be able to find it there to either rent or to buy for download.

If you go on G3 Ministries, you can get the special edition that comes with Tom Pennington's book, a cessationist timeline booklet that we put together, and a bunch of other really great things.

You know, I'm actually, after seeing and hearing the giants of the faith that you have included in this documentary,

I'm glad that I was sick that day at the G3 conference when you guys were going to interview me for the documentary, because it spared me my crushed feelings of being edited out.

But I thank all three of you guys for being such a wonderful panel of guests today.

I want to thank everybody who listened, and I hope you all always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater