The Caring Well Initiative

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Welcome to the Conversations That Matter podcast. My name is John Harris. We are gonna talk today about the

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Caring Well Initiative in the Southern Baptist Convention. The reason for that is because yesterday,

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I went through an email, actually, I think it was a letter that Russell Moore had put out there last year to,

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I think it was trustees at the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission. And this hasn't been public information until very recently, probably on purpose, it was made,

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I mean, obviously someone on purpose made it public information, but I'm thinking it probably, who knows if Russell Moore was even one of the ones approving this publication, but I don't know.

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It certainly has, as I said yesterday, a political utility. It basically characterizes those who chased

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Russell Moore out of the convention, those really mean -spirited people as well as being those in favor somehow of sexual abuse and somehow were wanting to cover for that.

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And then there are also racists, white nationalists, supremacists, et cetera.

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That's the spin, at least, that Russell Moore put on it. And some of it was just so ridiculous.

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I pointed that out yesterday. But one of the things he talked about was the Caring Well Initiative and how the Caring Well Initiative was one of the things that Mike Stone and the executive board had a problem with him for.

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And so they wanted to investigate him to see if there was a connection between churches leaving the Southern Baptist Convention and what he was doing.

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And the Caring Well Initiative was just, I think it might have been one of the first things he brought up. And it was one of the major points that he made.

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And so I thought, you know what? Let's talk about the Caring Well Initiative a little bit because I knew a little bit about it, but today

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I went on their website and I started looking into what the Caring Well Initiative is all about.

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And I definitely have some thoughts for you. And I think they'll be helpful and hopefully enlightening.

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A lot of things leaking though right now. I figured I should at least mention, just because of the new cycle we're in, Anthony Fauci's emails are out there, at least the ones from early last year.

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And you can go and you can search them. I actually did that for like five minutes just to see what would come up.

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And some of the things that I've seen that have gotten a lot of attention are the letter or the email between him and Mark Zuckerberg, a string of emails that seem to indicate that Mark Zuckerberg was in cahoots with Fauci for cracking down, banning, getting rid of.

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And the same thing for Twitter. There's some questions there. There wasn't an email with Twitter, but it was someone had posted a

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Zero Hedge article claiming that the Wuhan virus came from a lab in Wuhan.

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And of course, I think that was between the, it was between Anthony Fauci and then the person who sent it to him though was, oh,

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I forget the name now. I wanna say it was the former head of the Human Genome Project. And the name is escaping me for some odd reason.

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That's not what I was gonna talk about today though. So I have an excuse for forgetting that name. But anyway, there was some question about the correlation of that coming to Fauci in the next day

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Zero Hedge being banned on Twitter. And then of course, Facebook. And you have Anthony Fauci as well talking about masks and how, you know what, they don't really work, especially the ones you buy at the store.

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They just don't really accomplish much and not really a big deal. I wouldn't wear them in like February of last year.

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So interesting stuff to say the least, very interesting stuff. I wonder though why it was leaked.

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And I have, maybe this is my own suspicion. I don't think it is likely that the letter from Russell Moore was leaked on accident.

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I think that that was put out there probably by someone high up at the ERLC, if not Russell Moore himself.

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Probably not Russell Moore himself though. He probably, if he was in favor, he'd probably have someone else do it. But perhaps with his approval, it could have been put out there.

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I don't really, I suspect that. I'll just say based on, I guess, past behavior and how close we are to the

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Southern Baptist Convention and just the way some of these things work. I mean, there's a political utility to that. You smear the people who supposedly chased

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Russell Moore out of the convention as being those who are sexual abusers or at least wanting to cover for sexual abuse,

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I should say, and racists. Basically, that's the political utility of that particular piece of mail.

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As far as the Anthony Fauci emails, I just can't, I don't know, I really don't know why. I mean, it was a,

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I don't know, I don't know what to say. Maybe you should put it in the comments if you have a thought on this. Why would that be leaked?

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It's redacted, obviously. There's certain things you can't see. Like the Mark Zuckerberg email was very redacted.

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But what is it that, why would these be out there?

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Why would this not be, I mean, it's just, I don't know, I don't know what to think.

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I'm wondering if there's something else that's going on that this is a distraction from. I really don't know, but it's just odd to me because of how terrible it makes

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Fauci look. Let's go through some of the caring well stuff, though, here, which is the point of today's program.

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Some of you may have heard of this initiative. I want to show you, actually, let's do it this way. We're gonna start here.

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Let me show you what J .D. Greer, now, at least, the president of the Southern Baptist Convention, has to say about the

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Caring Well Initiative, give you a little bit of a background of what it is. Is your church doing all that it can to be safe for survivors and safe from abuse?

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We've got good news. You don't have to face this challenge on your own. The Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the

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Southern Baptist Convention and the SBC Sexual Abuse Advisory Group are partnering together to present the

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Caring Well Challenge. It's a free initiative designed to walk with church leaders step -by -step towards becoming a church that is safe for survivors and safe from abuse.

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The Caring Well Challenge provides your church with a pathway to start engaging the problem of abuse, whatever your background.

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I want to encourage your church to commit to taking the eight -step challenge over the next year.

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All right, let me just show you. Here's the eight -step challenge. You can click on it, and it'll take you through. So if you go, this is at caringwell .com.

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There's little videos and stuff. So here's the commit. That's just kind of the intro. Okay, now more stuff.

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You can download the How to Build a Caring Well Team and talks about how if you have experienced abuse, those who have experienced abuse would be good on your team, maybe some educators, law enforcement, et cetera.

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Launch it, launch your Caring Well Challenge. Video announcement from Russell Moore.

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I mean, there's just all sorts of resources here for your church, bulletin inserts. And you just go through, and there's just a lot of stuff.

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Here's the main chunk of stuff here, the train part. This is, I'd say, the most important part.

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And you can click on this link, and it'll take you to all the videos pretty much here.

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And I'm gonna talk about these videos. I haven't watched all of them in their entirety. That would take a long, long time.

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I've gone through a bunch of them just to get the gist of them, starting them, seeing what the topic is about.

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I've watched hunks of certain ones. But I poked around, for lack of a better term, just to figure out what is this all about.

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And pretty confident, in fact, I'm sure that I've figured it out. So there's not,

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I'm not gonna say all this stuff here is bad or anything like that. I think there's an assumption, though. Here's the problem. There's an assumption behind all of this that is kind of dangerous.

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And that's what I'm going to talk about a little bit. But anyway, you go through. There's more and more steps.

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And one of these steps, I don't remember which one it is. We're gonna get to churchcares .com. If you want more, you read more at Becoming a

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Church That Cares Well for the Abuse Curriculum. And so it's a book that CaringWell has put out there, the

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ERLC. Now, this was something Russell Moore was very much about, the CaringWell initiative.

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And so he thinks that this is one of the reasons, I guess, he was under investigation.

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This is why some people didn't like him, was because he was against sexual abuse, and he was part of the CaringWell initiative.

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And here's the thing. Does Russell Moore really know why people, conservatives, politically and theologically, had an issue with him?

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I think he kind of does. I think, I mean, unless you're, he has to be so self -deceived not to know.

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It has nothing to do with, oh, you know, he's against sexual abuse. Oh, he's against racism.

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As if the people that are critiquing him are for those things. That's absolutely ridiculous. No one is.

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That's critiquing Russell Moore in the Southern Baptist Convention in any serious way, at least. And so he has to kind of straw man and paint the other side as these horrible people that that's who they are.

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They're these mean monsters. But it does take in, when you put that narrative out there, some ignorant people are taken in by that.

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They think, wow, there's really are some horrible, like, people that wanna cover for sexual abuse and that are racist running around controlling the

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Southern Baptist Convention. And it's such a problem. And I think most people at the higher levels, they know that's not true.

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They know that that's ridiculous. But it's, there are enough ignorant people out there who, and even if they're not ignorant, they pretend to be to, because this is an advantageous narrative for them, that they go ahead and they push the narrative.

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So I want to pretend someone's ignorant out there that has, doesn't understand the working issues, thinks it's all the people that are critical of caring well are just there for sexual abuse, or they wanna cover for people that are doing sexual abuse.

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Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm gonna articulate the issue that some people that are conservative have with caring well.

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And there may be more issues, but here's the main one. And this is the one that I have with caring well as well. And it really does come back to standpoint epistemology.

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If you go back, if you don't know what that is, watch the video I did with Bill Roach on standpoint epistemology.

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I'm gonna put out some more resources on it moving forward so we know how to identify it better. But that video that I did with Bill Roach, I think was the first one we did.

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And it's just, you'll get it by the end of that video. I think Bill Roach explains it very well. But I'm gonna explain it,

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I guess, in my way. Standpoint epistemology, I see it as actually an extension of Karl Marx's class consciousness in a way that the working class was able to identify problems that the upper class could not see because of their experience of oppression.

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And of course, we have Foucault and Derrida and postmodern thinkers, especially from the French postmodernist school.

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And we have critical theorists from Germany now who have certainly built upon those ideas.

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And now you have critical race theorists. So we've come a long way in a sense, and intersectionality also.

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But I trace it back to kind of that. Now, you could even trace it back farther.

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I mean, you could go to Immanuel Kant and see some of the ideas there. You could even probably go to Hegel in some ways.

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But I think of Marx, I think of class consciousness. Now, the way that it works today, obviously it doesn't operate, simply put, based on class.

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It operates based on other external factors like your racial identity, your gender, sexual orientation.

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And it could be a lot of other things as well. Your experience, as far as being a victim in some way, ends up that,

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I mean, it could be you have a gluten allergy. I mean, it somehow contributes to you having some kind of an advantage in knowledge about some area because of a victim experience or an oppressed experience or being in the minority culture, that kind of thing.

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And so it is based on experience at the end of the day. And those who do not share your social location, that's really what it's all based on, the experience attached to your social location, they do not have the insights you have, which is why someone like a white straight male

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Christian needs to sit down and listen and shut up when it comes to the issues plaguing women or plaguing minorities, because they're just not able to understand because they are in the oppressive class or the majority culture, et cetera, according, those are the terms that are often used.

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And so standpoint epistemology gives an advantage in knowledge, in understanding, in wisdom, in the ability to meet challenges and come up with solutions for oppression to those that have some kind of a victim, victimology of some kind.

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Now, when you insert intersectionality into that, there are, some people would say that someone who has multiple identities of victimhood may even be on some issues, at least, more qualified to speak because of their victim status.

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Now, I believe, and we went through this in the video, I believe, that I did with Bill Roach, this is completely antithetical to biblical teaching.

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It actually destroys the clarity of revelation and just the very idea of revelation itself, that God communicates to man in such a way that man can know what

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God is communicating is just absolutely destroyed and wrecked by this idea, because it's actually kind of a neo -gnosticism.

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You have someone who is oppressed in a situation or they have a standpoint where they can understand that revelation perhaps better than someone who doesn't have that social location that is associated with oppression.

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So there may be a barrier for them in understanding even the word of God and understanding reality itself, but that would include the revelation from God, that would include both natural and special revelation.

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And this is where I think seminary presidents and popular

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Christian speakers want to diversify their libraries and make sure they're giving up power to higher minorities and these kinds of things, because have a global curriculum as Matt Hall and Walter Strickland want, because you see, if you're a white straight male, you can't understand certain things and you need these other perspectives to be able to understand issues.

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Danny Carroll is an example of a professor from Wheaton who has gone around for like the last seven years or so talking about how

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Hispanics have a better understanding of what the Bible says about immigration because of their experience in being immigrants.

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And so this kind of thing is just, it's in the water, we breathe it in every day, it's out there.

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One of the ways it's manifested itself is in this whole Me Too Believe Women movement that someone who claims to have oppression like Christine Ford who accused

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Brent Kavanaugh of, I'm trying to think of how

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I wanna phrase some of these things if you have kids in the car, of doing some not so nice things.

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She was to be believed, in fact, there was a dating app that put an ad,

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I think it was in the New York Times, it said Believe Women. She was to be believed just because of her status as a woman which is a minority essentially, and even though they're not when it comes to gender, but they don't have power is the point.

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They're oppressed in some way because of their gender. Their social location is one of disadvantage.

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And this, if you start to think that someone is supposed to be believed or trusted just because of their gender or some external factor, then when you apply that to biblical interpretation, it's no longer the man of God who is equipped for every good work.

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It's no longer all the wisdom principles from Proverbs that we're supposed to be looking for as a way to gauge whether someone is wise or not.

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It's not the approved workman who does not need to be ashamed. It's not those kinds of metrics which are based on hard work and understanding, being a

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Berean. It's now based more on, there's a shift, and it's not to say that study isn't important, but there's a shift.

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There's an advantage given to someone because of some external factor. And you just don't see that in scripture. You don't see, hey, the

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Jews or the Gentiles or any other ethnic group have some kind of an advantage simply because of the fact that they are from some kind of a social location.

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Sure, the Jews have a heritage and all sorts of specific things

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God had, revelation God had given them that was unique to them, but that wasn't a social location.

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That wasn't because of their, some level of oppression or something, that they were more qualified to speak to a certain issue.

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So hopefully that gives you a basic sketch of what standpoint epistemology is and just how it functions. I see

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Caring Well as paralleling the Me Too movement and the Believe Women phrase that was so popular, that catchphrase.

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And I wanna go through why I believe this and why I think people actually had a problem and still have a problem with the

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Caring Well initiative, because it has nothing to do with caring about victims, survivors, et cetera.

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Everyone and every pastor certainly should care for those people. And there's no reason to believe that the people critiquing

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Caring Well don't care for those people. It's just the way Caring Well is approaching it and the assumptions Caring Well is bringing to it, because Caring Well is bringing assumptions consistent with standpoint theory.

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So let me go through some of this with you. In the

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Southern Baptist Convention, the Caring Well initiative applies a mild version of standpoint epistemology to the issue of sexual abuse.

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According to then president of the convention, J .D. Greer, now he's still the president, but at the time that this,

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I think it was 2019, the purpose of Caring Well was to help churches engage the problem of abuse.

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However, most of the speakers for the training material had little to qualify them except for the fact that they experienced abuse.

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And there you have it already. This is where you should start. The red flag should be going up. Wait a minute.

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What qualifies someone to speak about a topic? If the word of God is, and this is the assumption behind a

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Christian ministry approaching this topic, the word of God has spoken, has given everything needed to make the man of God complete, to understand the issue of sexual abuse and how to approach it in the church would be one of those categories.

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So you have the word of God, right? You have people with wisdom in applying the word of God, but most of the speakers,

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I'm gonna repeat it, for the training material had little to qualify them as far as understanding, applying the word of God, except what they did have was the fact that they experienced abuse.

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And this is true if you just go look at the videos, how many of them are survivor stories. Even contributors who did possess expertise took a posture of saying, let's hear from victim's experience before sharing their knowledge.

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Of the 20 main speakers providing training, only four were publicly verifiable members of the clergy and only one, a counseling pastor from J .D.

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Greer's church spoke in his capacity as a pastor. Greer taught that if church leaders were not first to rush to defend abuse survivors, they were quote, betraying the name of Christ and the gospel.

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So the emphasis was not on pastors with experience, rightly dividing the word of God, knowing how to apply it to situations.

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It wasn't centered on the word. It was centered on the experience of victims.

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And that was what qualified and gave authority to the Caring Well Initiative and to this training that they're giving to churches.

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Now, the Caring Well Initiative did not platform any male victims in their main teachings.

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I thought that was interesting. I don't know if they couldn't find them. I'm sure they existed. But kind of like the

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Me Too movement, kind of like Believe Women, it was all female victims, male abusers.

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And it definitely, in my mind, paralleled the same kind of thinking behind the Me Too movement's Believe Women slogan.

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Women who experienced sexual abuse were more qualified to advise pastors and churches on the topic of sexual abuse than were pastors who rightly understood and applied scripture's teaching on the subject.

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Not only was their voice necessary for solving sexual abuse, but their stories were generally accepted without affirming the importance of verification.

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And there was a book that I had showed. Let's see if I can pull it up here. I might be able to do that.

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Let's see, if we go down here, we click on Read More About Becoming a Church That Cares Well for the

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Abuse Curriculum. So you click on it. And that is not,

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I don't think, where I was planning. Let's see, churchcares .com, I think, is the, yeah, that's it, Church Cares. Becoming a

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Church That Cares Well for the Abused. And you can go and preview now.

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It's got lessons, it's got the book. Let's see here, I click on the book.

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I don't know why it says URL not found. I could see it earlier today. Let's see here, let's try again here. Book, download free

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PDF. So you click that, download free PDF. And let me give you, let me show you something.

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Here's, if you type in the word believe. Let's see, we have 70 hits on the word believed.

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Let me just read for you a few of them. Here's the first one. It's a dedication to victims who need to know they will be believed and cared for when they come forward.

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Here's the next one. Do I believe her? Do I confront him? Do I call the police? Here's the next one.

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I pray that those who confide in you will leave with more hope than when they came, feeling believed, validated, and protected.

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They are unlikely to speak to you again. They may even retract or soften their own allegations in your response if your response indicates they are not safe and have not been believed.

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Here's number five. When a person voluntarily discloses to their pastor that they are being abused or have been abused, they feel terrified that you won't believe their story.

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This just goes on and on and on. Studies show that the abuse is traumatic, but disclosing abuse can be more traumatic when the victim isn't believed or blamed by those trusted to help.

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It's pretty extreme, actually. That really is a motivator for believing a victim if you think that it's gonna be worse if you don't believe them than it was for the initial trauma they experienced.

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So anyway, there's a lot about believing women in this book. I don't think all 70 are specifically about believing women, believing survivors, et cetera, but this is a big part of the book.

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It's a major element to believe women. So back to this little thing

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I wrote on the Caring Well Initiative when I was gathering my thoughts. If I can pull it up, yep,

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I can. Women were to be believed.

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Not only was their voice necessary, but their stories were generally accepted without affirming the importance of verification.

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In the book Becoming a Church, and this is one I just showed you, that cares well for the abused, Caring Well contributors provided additional training in which they emphasize the importance of believing victims.

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The book instructed pastors and ministry leaders to emphasize their belief in the victim's story and create a safe space where the victim felt believed.

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Leaders were to disregard innocence until proven guilty. This is literally in the book, it says this.

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Leaders are to disregard innocence until proven guilty, that principle, since it only applied in the legal realm, while instead practicing

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Paul's teaching in 1 Corinthians 13, seven, that love believes all things. So instead of innocence until proven guilty, two or three witnesses, meeting a standard of proof, exercising discernment, a victim needs to be believed immediately, it's a reflexive thing.

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Reflexively believing victims is a top priority. And if you don't do that, a victim may suffer more trauma from not being believed than from their actual abuse.

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So this is a serious issue, and this is how Caring Well wanted to deal with this issue.

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And this is not, I think, how scripture deals with this issue. In the context of 1

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Corinthians 13, seven, Paul was correcting the way Corinthian Christians pridefully misused their spiritual gifts by contrasting their arrogant attitudes with a spirit of love.

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So if you read 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14, it's kind of, that's the same theme there.

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It's talking about spiritual things, spiritual gifts, the problem that erupted when the eye was saying to the hand, or your body parts are telling each other that they're more worthy or less worthy.

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And then you get to 1 Corinthians, the end of 1 Corinthians 12, and it says, earnestly desire the greater gifts, but I show you a still more excellent way, and that could also be translated, this is what you're doing.

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You're earnestly desiring the greater gifts. Here's the more excellent way I'm gonna show you. It's the way of love, 1 Corinthians 13. So you're using your gifts in a way that's unloving, and that's the theme.

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And here's the right attitude to have when you're using your spiritual gifts, 1 Corinthians 13, that's a love chapter.

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So this is where they go. They go to 1 Corinthians 13, seven, and it says, love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.

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Say, well, see, you gotta believe all things. So that would mean, logically speaking, you would have to believe the quote -unquote abuser as well.

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If the person that's the abuser in the story tells you that they didn't do it, I guess you have to believe them because love believes all things.

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I mean, that's ridiculous, right? Of course, it can't mean what they're making it mean. Paul was not talking about that kind of a situation.

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What he was saying was that the way that the Corinthian Christians were using their spiritual gifts was wrong, and they needed to exercise a kind of love to their fellow

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Christians in their use of gifts. He was not teaching that victims had the right to be believed simply because of their stated experience or gender.

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Instead, he described the kind of encouraging attitude Christians should have toward each other in using their spiritual gifts.

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As Puritan Matthew Henry stated, charity does by no means destroy prudence, meaning love does not destroy wisdom.

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Paul himself did not immediately believe every details of an accusation just because it was made.

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And we have evidence of this from scripture. And I'll show you that. Let's see if I can turn this back.

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So we're gonna, if you're watching now, you can see. We're gonna show you some scriptures here. 1

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Corinthians 11, 18. And we'll read for you. Here's NASB. For in the first place, when you come together as a church,

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I hear that divisions exist among you, and in part, I believe it. So he heard an accusation, and he doesn't believe all of it.

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He believes it in part. He believes the gist of it. So he's not, he's using his past experience.

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He's using what he knows to be true about the Corinthians to judge the accusation that is being made.

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He's not just knee -jerk, you know, taking all of it and swallowing it down and saying he believes every detail of it.

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You have principles like Proverbs 14, 15. It says the naive believes everything, but the sensible man considers his steps.

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So, I mean, this would be a direct contradiction if, you know, we're supposed to just believe everyone. No, that's what the naive people do, where the sensible man considers his steps.

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Deuteronomy 19, of course, talks about you can't convict on the basis of one witness. You need two or three.

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You need, the facts of the case must be established. This is civil procedure. You have

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Matthew 18, 16, which then applies that in the ecclesiastical realm, the church realm, says that, but if he does not listen to you, take two or more, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses, every fact may be confirmed.

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You even have in 1 Timothy 5, 19, this idea that you cannot receive an accusation against an elder, except on the basis of two or three witnesses.

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There's that same standard within the church. So, it is not accurate for the

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Caring Well Initiative to say that 1 Corinthians is teaching that you should just believe victims because love believes all things.

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Actually, no. And actually, there's a lot of paraphrases. Let me see if I can find some of them here. See, I'll go to the passage.

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There's a lot of paraphrases that I think actually convey this in a way that makes it almost more understandable to people.

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Let's see here. And I'll show you some of these, actually.

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Let me switch back here. So, if we go to some of the paraphrases, now, these are paraphrases.

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These aren't translations, but they're trying to get the gist of the text to you to convey the meaning of it. Here's, let's see which one here.

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God's Word Translations, a paraphrase. Love never stops being patient, never stops believing, never stops hoping, never gives up.

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It's endurance, it's encouragement. International Standard Version. She, meaning wisdom, bears, or love, sorry, bears up under everything, believes the best in all.

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There is no limit to her hope and never will she fall. Kind of a good rhyme there, too. Let's see, what else is here?

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Contemporary English Version. Love is always supportive, loyal, hoping, and trusting. Amplified Bible. Love bears all things, regardless of what comes.

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Believes all things, looking for the best in each one. Hopes all things, remaining steadfast during difficult times, and endures all things without weakening.

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And I think these are conveying the gist of what Paul's getting at here, which is that you have encouragement and you have faith in someone.

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That's what it's talking about. It's not saying, you know, without any kind of assessment, you just believe anything someone tells you.

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Come off the street or, you know, in order to love them, you gotta believe them. No, it's saying that you believe in them, that you have faith in them.

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You hope the best for them. You're looking for the best in them. You're assuming the best.

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There's a positivity to it. And this is how the use of spiritual gifts should function within the church. Assuming the best of people, not demeaning them or, you know, being jealous of them because they have a different spiritual gift.

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That was the problem Paul was addressing. And if you get the context, it all follows. But Caringwell didn't.

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And so they ended up with a mess here. So I like to go back to 1

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Corinthians 7, verse six, which states, love rejoices with the truth. In the ecclesiastical realm, the civil realm, the personal realm, we don't just, we don't have to, we're not required to just accept everything without any kind of discernment or wisdom.

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Now, I wanna say this on the flip side. I mean, if it's someone that comes to you and there's someone with a track record that you know them and you have no reason not to believe them and they seem trustworthy, then by all means, believe them.

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That's exercising some wisdom. Investigate it, take it to the next step. If it's someone that you don't know, but just attached to this is this idea of love.

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Well, you gotta love them and they deserve love. And it's this booklet that Caringwell put out actually says it's a need.

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It uses the word need. They need to be believed. Well, then you just kind of owe it to them to believe them. And that's what you wanna get away from.

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And I think resting on that assumption is a standpoint epistemology. That some kind of lived experience, some kind of maybe gender, those things qualify someone to talk about this issue and to be believed.

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And that's just not the case. That's not a biblical standard whatsoever. And that's the issue many people have with Caringwell.

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It has nothing to do with they're against abuse survivors. In fact, what they're trying to avoid when they're critiquing

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Caringwell is having new victims form. Victims because they were accused of something they didn't do.

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And ERLC is saying that they need to be believed. That's also, you're creating another kind of victim when you do that.

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So that is my critique of the Caringwell stuff. And I hope that was helpful for some of you. I know it gets confusing because they posture themselves as being so much on the side of the victim that you think, oh man,

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I don't wanna be against the victim. But you're not against the victim. You just don't wanna create another victim by hearing a false accusation and accepting it.

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And so there needs to be a grid of wisdom that you're putting these things through. And fortunately, the Bible gives us some wisdom on that issue.

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Having different lines of authentication, two or three witnesses. And that's one of them.

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So anyway, hope that was helpful for you all. And I hope those who may have been taken in by Russell Moore, I hope a few of them are watching this video and at least understanding, even if they disagree, understanding what the critique actually is.

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And that was my goal. So tomorrow we are leaving SBC stuff. You'll get to hear something different, something a little more hopeful, hopefully.