An Apologetic for Cessationism

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity

ministries.

Howdy.

No, I'm not Andrew Rappaport.

But I am drew from matter of theology who is basically Andrews co -host now and I fill in when

Andrew can't be here.

But we're excited that you are here, especially given the topic.

We're gonna be talking about cessationism Which is a topic we we have seen to be covering

quite regularly.

Here, but let me bring in my co -host.

Of course my partner in crime with matter of theology Chris Hough, what's up, bro?

What's up, man?

How you doing?

Oh, you know same old same old I'm living the dream as always, but here's the thing, you know, I

started a new job, right?

It's true you did and that was something that I'd been trying to do for a while.

I've been trying to get out of FedEx and get into a new job and I've gotten into a new job.

And so I'm now working in sales so That's something I never thought

I would actually be in but I'm in sales and I'm working for a company that

makes fragrance oils I.

Mean.

I'm happy for you about the job.

I'm happy that you're no longer in FedEx.

But you know you do what you got to do bro, but no, let me tell you about this.

Let me tell you about this.

Okay, so I did not realize that the market for fragrance oils.

Well, it's huge.

Oh, yeah, it's huge and I'm talking all over the world.

Yep I mean, I've got a prospect list right my leads and it is

Just in in my territory.

It's just almost a thousand different companies right little companies of people who are making candles

making waxes and Chris broke his microphone apparently.

It just came right off.

That is keep going.

That's weird.

But you know, so so I'm into doing that now, which is good you know, it's easier on my body

and You know, especially lunchtime gives me a lot of time to study read scripture and a

lot of people there are Professing Christians now, I don't know him well enough to say

possessing Christians, but they are professing Christians and Sometimes we have some good talk.

Sometimes there's even At moments there might be some prayer time in there.

Nice one on one.

So so that's good.

That's a fix the mic all as well.

Okay, good job.

Well, what's going on with you, man?

Oh, man, as you would say live in the dream.

Work is going well, which is which is awesome.

Family's doing well.

Gosh, what else.

I'm reading a lot right now.

I put my current book list on IG stories and and it was a reminder of how much I'm reading.

But but yeah, I'm in doing doing well plugging along sweet sweet.

You know, I want to bring up a comment here.

Melissa says Congratulations, Drew you get a new job and you get to

smell good.

And this is so true, right?

We have a lab where we develop all these scents these fragrances and but but

we have like seven buildings on this one road and The entire road

smells so good.

I Mean, I mean it smells like Belgian waffles like it's amazing.

It's so good so if you are Starting a candle company or

whatever and you need some fragrance oils to add Let me know hit your boy up look up

aromatic fragrances international, you know, I'd be glad to set you up, but

We have some announcements do it.

Andrew sent me these announcements.

I think they're really good announcements.

One of them is pretty big.

So let me start with the second one that he sent me.

Next week's episode will be the episode with Andrews friend Anthony on gay

Christianity.

It will be Anthony trying to now not Anthony Silvestro, right?

No, but but Andrews friend Anthony He will be trying to

defend the notion of gay Christianity.

So that's next week's episode.

But this is one I think is pretty big.

Okay Michael Brown and Andrew are in

the discussion phase of Setting up a debate on are the miraculous gifts

for today?

Now, I think that's that's pretty amazing.

That's that's crazy.

That is because There was when when Tom Pennington's book came out

Michael Brown did an episode on it.

Yep, and you have it right there a biblical case for cessationism.

Which we would say is a a more expansive work on his sermon from the strange

fire conference.

Yes, and if you haven't listened to that go to the grace to you app Look up truth matters strange

fire conference, correct?

All the all the sermons messages are in there.

Let me take off that comment.

You can also just go to gty .org and just search strange fire Tom Pennington.

Gty .org also has a cool feature that if there's a quote that you've ever heard by John or Bodhi or

Lawson or anybody that's ever preached and they have the sermons on gty.

All you do is type in.

I think Steve said give us some men who know the truth.

Like and it will that the way the search feature works is you it'll take you right to the sermon that that gets from.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome.

So so dr. Brown did this episode?

Podcast trying to Trying to disprove Tom Pennington's book

and I have a baby running towards me right now.

I hear that.

Okay, he's not running towards me.

He's running towards his mommy.

But here's one of the things that I found was really fascinating in this this episode of Michael

Brown Chris.

He the point was basically to disprove Tom's book.

Yeah, but He didn't disprove Thomas.

No what he did was he basically took the the Argumentative

claims and he addressed the argumentative claims.

He didn't address the support that Tom Pennington provides for his claims, right?

So so a proper way to argue if we're laying out a biblical case and and we're bringing out an argument

We're going to state our claim first.

Yeah, then what follows is the defense or the proof or the support of our claim.

Now Michael Brown didn't didn't address any of his support.

He just addressed the claim.

So with that did Michael Brown Refute Tom Pennington.

No.

He just he just took the claim and then threw in His what his view of

what the claim should be or or the charismatic?

Refutation of that claim without addressing the support.

Yeah, and this this goes back to something we kind of talked about last week.

Was that just last week?

We're talking about debating and yeah.

Yeah.

It's been a long week is Whenever you're engaging with something like this

engage The work that's been done engage the scriptures engage the argument

and that's one of the reasons that when you and I were talking about What to do tonight?

I wanted to address this is because We need to have a solid

apologetic Or cessationism right and and the biblical case for it because

right now as of you know, today is October 5th 2023 Coming

off of the heels off of the g3 national conference where they announced that next year 2024 this

same time October 3rd through the 5th of 2024 at Grace Community Church, the cessationist

conference Lord willing will be taking place right and so when that was announced the

The I'll just call it what it is the immature continuationist ran amok, right?

And Complaining about everything from the price of the conference to Calling, you

know, and we're gonna get into this a little bit later.

But but saying that you know a friend of mine recently said that cessationist an atheist have more in common that they want than they want to

admit Said by a disqualified pastor anyway, um,

you know, but but but the issue is brothers and sisters We need to engage with the arguments

like don't because this is something we see often especially on social media but it also can be something that happens

when you're face to face with someone is don't fall for The ad hominem

don't fall for the misdirection don't fall for the distraction.

One prime example of that just while we're talking about this This this guy named Shane Eidelman

he's the the founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Church in Southern, California and he

He sent out a question on October 3rd on on Twitter or Twix or X what everyone call it I call it

Twix cuz I like Twix, but I'm Twix cuz I'm trying to be healthy.

Anyway, um.

And the social media platform formerly known as Twitter.

Yeah, right.

He said this he said quote.

I'd like to ask a question to the people below.

I'm genuinely curious Would you have been embarrassed in the upper room on Pentecost when the spirit

fell or was it such a stupid question?

Oh, it's so ridiculous.

Or would you have loved to have been there more below any tag?

Josh Bice, MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Justin Peters, Virgil Walker, Scott Annual, Tom Pennington,

Todd Friel and multiple people responded and I I

affirmed The responses by Josh Bice and Justin Peters and I said

spot -on and I said not to mention What happened when the spirit fell on the day of Pentecost and both of them by the way.

Both of them said of course, no, I wouldn't be embarrassed.

That would be amazing to be there when the church starts or I think Shane at one point asked about the Mount of

Transfiguration as well and Justin Peters was like I was mystified by the

question.

I wouldn't write it.

Why on earth would I be embarrassed?

All right, and and then I said not to mention what happened when the spirit fell on the day at Pentecost.

Well, I heard that bro.

I heard that pop and and then I and it on the Mount of Transfiguration is much

much different than what we see coming from the Charismatic movement today.

That was my response.

That's all I said and this guy named Ezra the scribe.

He said listen to this quote he said because there were dozens of them.

But a billion of us you do realize there are literally more people praying in tongues as a routine

Part of their prayer lives then there are Calvinists.

Oh, I forgot Calvinists don't believe in a real God who speaks acts thinks hears or answers

period so Drew you see me do this

very rare.

It's very rare brothers and sisters.

If you don't know me and drew knows this Andrew knows this about me.

As well, I don't get into debates on social media.

It drives me nuts, but every now and then one comes up or two.

Another one came up with another continuationist this week as well.

Where I'm like, you know what?

No, no, no.

No.

No, I'm not gonna let that one lie.

And and so I responded now I Clearly

pointed out I said brother Biblical Calvinists believe in the God of Scripture who does each of those

things according to his living active sufficient and authoritative word.

Aside from the ridiculous display of not understanding what biblical Calvinists believe at best and

or completely Intentionally misrepresenting what Calvinists believe at worst you proved my point.

But first I must say that the number of people is not a defense for something being

Normative and ordained by the Lord for use today.

There are billions who worship Buddha millions of Roman Catholics.

Does the sheer number prove that what they believe is true now to my original point and then I

Proceeded to go in there and and talk about that what we saw in the New Testament as far as tongues.

And I know we're probably gonna get into this.

So I won't go through what I went through there.

No response.

So don't I say all that to say?

Be I was respectful.

I called him brother and I said if you'd like to engage further on this or any other topics.

Let me know we can set up a zoom call or something.

You know, no response whatsoever, so right it's important that we when it

come and the reason this is so important and This is at the cruciform conference.

The first cruciform conference that you and I did.

I think it was 2020.

Yep.

I said we were sitting in the hallway in between sessions and it was a Hugh me Andrew Justin and we

were talking and After the experiences that you and I have had with continuationists and continuationist churches.

Yep, I Justin and I were talking about it and I looked at Justin and I looked at you and I said I'm of the Opinion

just my opinion that this issue is a Primary issue.

It's not secondary.

It's not tertiary now for Everyone out there listening what I mean by primary is

that it's a it's a tier one issue.

Meaning that scripture clearly defines how the Holy Spirit is to work in what we call

the church age the age that we are in.

So any affront to that and any affront to the sufficiency authority?

And the the veracity of scripture is an affront to God himself the issue of

cessationism versus Continuationism is an issue that needs to be ironed out.

I am of the opinion.

This is just me personally I'm not telling anyone listening that they should or shouldn't stay or leave a church.

If if you know, there are differing views.

But for me and my family, we will not attend a church where the elders are continuationists

if After a detailed and lengthy biblical loving gentle

conversation.

We can't go.

Okay.

No, we're just saying the same thing, but in two different ways.

Right.

I will not stay and I will not let my family stay in a church where the elders

Repeatedly question scripture as is as if it's not enough and or

Assigning works to the Holy Spirit that he had he has and wants no part of right right now first.

I have to I have to answer this question from Kofi deep dive discipleship.

He says drew is that bluey in the background?

Yes, it is.

It is bluey in the background.

Bluey stays on in the house all the time.

Yeah, all the time and the reason being is because.

It's one of the very few shows That are actually very clean.

Yeah, that's actually a good show.

Now.

There are some episodes.

I don't particularly like.

Because you know one teaches evolution you can tell through how they're playing it teaches evolution.

I don't particularly like that one.

Yeah, but it's a great show for parents.

It's a great show for kids me and my wife will watch it just the two of us after the kids go to bed.

We're just still watching it and we've seen them over and over and over and over and over again.

We love bluey around here.

Nice, but to address what you were saying.

Yeah, man, Chris.

The idea of tier one right and we've talked about this through the years just you

and me offline.

Mm -hmm is Some people would say is this a tier one issue a tier two issue.

Is this tertiary?

Well when we start talking about the gifts and how

God the Spirit moves.

We're talking about his nature we're talking about the things that he does and so

we have to be very very careful as To what we attribute to the

Holy Spirit.

Mm -hmm.

So we and Justin has made this point numerous times in all the play and all of the documentaries

He's been on and and the interviews he's done and the teachings he's given.

He he has he has always said you have to be very careful of attributing

works to the Holy Spirit that are clearly not of the Holy Spirit and Done through

people who are clearly not people that God would choose to work through in that

manner, correct?

Absolutely.

Yeah, because because what are we saying about God at that point?

Right if well uses charlatans and tricksters to do all of these things and saying it's a movement

of God.

What are we saying about God and that's that that's the biggest thing about this man is you've

got all of I mean you've got when you look at let's just let's just take away the Nonsense that we see

today as far as the charismatic chaos and the charismania that goes on the the fringe groups, right?

But but overall the question is are they even fringe?

There because the fringe groups would be the people like the sandstorms.

Right people like the Matt slicks the people like the John Pipers.

Those are the fringe groups, right?

Yep.

Yep.

Yeah, man.

I mean so but when you look at that when you look at the The the the epics

in in in Scripture where Where the Lord did gift

people with with miraculous gifts when you look at that They were they were believers.

They were truth -tellers.

They they they sought after holiness.

They did not want to lead people astray.

They loved Christ.

They loved his word.

There's the key.

They The whole point was to always establish authority in that that

so so that whoever heard and then us Would benefit from the scriptures and going thus says the Lord.

Yeah, that's authoritative.

How do we know that because he gave them the ability to do those things to validate?

Who they were to the Lord and how they were going to be used throughout church history.

Yeah, yeah now you mentioned the three the three epics or epochs.

However, you want to say that Throughout church history from the Old Testament to the New Testament where you have

Moses.

Right the time of Moses and Joshua.

Yep.

You have Elijah and Elisha and then we would move to the New Testament and say Jesus and the Apostles,

correct?

Now Michael Brown is one that has made the argument that that's not true.

Because even when we see prophets who are outside of those times.

That's God moving in a miraculous way the fact that you have prophets.

Well, that's not exactly the case.

Where do we see the miracles taking place the signs and the wonders taking place?

We see them primarily in those three epochs.

Now God has had his messengers the people who go and speak for him.

Yes, right and in between each of those times where miracles weren't being performed

Scripture was being written correct.

Okay now Let's just let's just entertain.

Dr. Brown's argument.

Think about this in terms of statistics.

Okay.

Now, I'm sure all of us who have been through maybe higher level math in in

high school or math in College for everyone that went to college.

We've probably taken the statistics course, right?

Now in statistics, what are the things that that you're doing?

You're looking at clumps of data and the clumps of data give you the

accurate range of Of what's taking place, right?

Now Chris in statistics, are there outliers?

Always always.

So but so outliers are things that are outside of the norm.

They lie outside of the data group.

Now while outliers happen, do we look at the outlier to try to discredit the

data group?

No, no, because because that cluster.

In the in the that statistical group gives us our answer.

It gives us it gives us the range of what we're looking for.

So when we look at all of the miracles that are done.

They're grouped in these three sections because that's where the signs

miracles and wonders take place.

Sure, there can be there can be outliers, but the outlier is Not

to take away from the main statistical grouping right, right

and It's

It's fascinating to see that Andrew has written

He's given a sermon on this at the cessationist conference that took place at Kootenai Community Church Jim

Osman's Church.

Which I think was last year.

He and he also turned that message into a blog that you can find on striving for eternity.

Yep, and in that He lists out the number of miracles that are

listed in the entire Bible and When you look at the spread of those miracles

in the Old Testament.

You can't help but see the groupings that show up right, and so that's

where they get those three epochs the the the Moses and the

and the Joshua section the Elijah and Elisha section and the Jesus and the Apostles section.

Correct.

Well and.

Another another key thing to point out while there are

principles that we can take From the narrative portions of Scripture,

right?

There are principles that we can take and apply to our lives.

That we see in the the narratives the storytelling that takes place through the Bible.

In no way shape or form does the description of those narratives become a

Prescriptive command for us to participate in.

When you see when you see Moses coming down From from the mountain with the Ten

Commandments and and Aaron and the Israelites have fashioned the golden calf

What happens, you know a lot of people are killed.

Does that mean that we should identify all the false worshipers around us and as

Benny Hinn would say take a Holy Ghost machine gun to him.

No, that's a that that is a narrative.

It does highlight how serious the Lord takes worship.

It does highlight for us that the Lord will not tolerate.

False worship.

Mm -hmm.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Well, there's you're talking about descriptive text versus prescriptive text.

Correct.

Now, this is a hermeneutical issue.

Yes, we don't take descriptive text something that just describes what's going on and treat it

as though it's a prescriptive text.

Right.

We can't do that.

But.

There was something else you just said I wanted to touch on but then I forgot it.

It it literally just like left left my brain.

But we do see serious of worship.

Oh.

That's what it well it relates to that.

Okay sort of relates to that.

So what we see in the New Testament or or let's not say the New Testament.

Let's say today.

We see these modern -day quote -unquote.

Prophets, right saying that they speak in the name of the Lord.

Now at the same time they would they would tell us they would come against us as cessationists and say we don't believe the Bible.

Be as as these gifts being for today now the problem is they don't believe the Bible where the

Bible says if you prophesy falsely, you should be stoned and.

Yet and yet what is is the the rate of?

Quote -unquote.

Prophets who get their prophecies wrong?

Yeah, so it's.

Here's something very very important When it comes to

prophecy as in the Foretelling of future events not the fourth telling of what has

already taken place or the proclamation of the word.

When it comes to prophecy and prophets in the scriptures both Old and New Testaments

the Bible nowhere rightly divided using correct hermeneutics.

The Bible nowhere supports the structure of a first -tier or second -tier prophet.

Right now what charismatics would do is they would say well people like Chris Vallotton

For example, right.

And you you find all of these prophets who predicted that Trump would be elected president in 2020.

Well that didn't happen.

Still hasn't happened.

Oh, I got that one wrong.

That's okay.

You ever notice how they always prophesy the Republican Nominee for president, but they never prophesy.

But but but but here's here's the the problem overall with this number one

you cannot.

This is what I can't get my continuationist friends to understand.

How can you say that you believe in this is what I challenged Matt Slick with when he when we were talking about this.

And and it was a good conversation ended up being a very good conversation that got heated there for a minute.

But you cannot say That you hold to sola and tota

scriptura scriptura and not be a biblical cessationist, right?

You can't.

Because that means I'm open but cautious.

So that means that you are open to to the idea that the canon of Scripture is not closed.

Well, there goes there goes there goes sola and tota scriptura right there right there goes it's out the window.

But then you you you open the door for the doctrine of demons to come and you open the door for manipulation and

deception.

When scripture in Psalm 19 says that the Word of God the law of the Lord it makes wise the simple.

That means it shuts the door to the leaving it wide open to whatever could come in.

Shut the door of your mind.

How do you do that with the Word of God?

So so that there are this whole thing that you can you can be a Propheting

and get prophecy wrong and it's okay.

You're still you're not a false prophet.

You just got that one wrong.

Absolutely, not.

Do you understand the gravitas?

What you just did you're displaying.

You have no fear of the Lord.

No.

God said the Lord the Lord appeared to me in a vision and he said that Donald Trump was

gonna be elected.

No, I know.

This is just one example.

I Think of bro.

We did an episode of matter of theology on on the whole wake up all of thing.

Right.

Did you look at number?

It's my mind is getting ahead of my mouth.

It's There are eternal damning consequences

To being open To prophecy and saying thus says the Lord when we have

the completed word the more sure words Peter said.

Yep, you have eternal consequences.

That's enough.

But if it wasn't There the temporal consequences of the

heartbreak in the turmoil and the struggle.

Now I remember when Bethel and Bill Johnson and that whole wake -up all of thing That was the thing that hit me here in the

heart and the chest the most.

Was you need to let you need to be pointing these parents to scripture, right?

And let the let the let the Holy Spirit through the through the The Word of God the living the

active the authoritative sword Comfort them and

you're giving people these false hope and these false assurances and it's like It is just one of the coolest

things in the world to operate that way instead of saying let's go to the scriptures and look at what the scriptures say about

suffering and the sovereignty of God and Etc.

So on and so forth.

So, you know not to mention That there are rules first Corinthians for

Most charismatic love to write first Corinthians 14 first Corinthians 12 through 14, right?

We are we are Continuationist.

Well, okay.

Well then okay if you're charismatic and continuationist, then what do you do with those rules in first Corinthians

14?

When it talks about that number one that only two or three people at most were to prophesy that number

two that Everybody in the congregation were to evaluate the prophecy against what?

Previous biblical revelation.

What do you what do you do with that.

And then number three is those with the gift of prophecy?

I'm quoting Tom Pennington right here those with the gift of prophecy were to speak one at a time.

Yep, and continue continue with those rules if you spoke in tongues.

Two or three at the most are to speak in a tongue in turn.

But then you must write.

It's not a suggestion.

You must have an interpreter, right?

And not only that.

Women were not allowed to speak in tongues either because of the command in first Corinthians 14

to remain Silent.

And what I can tell you I can tell you from experience.

Okay in many Pentecostal ish Churches today

Pentecostal and Pentecostal ish churches today.

There are numerous women who sit in the pews who will just blurt out in what

they call tongues.

Right, right.

Well, and let's I mean Let's talk about tongues for a minute man.

Okay, you know the whole thing with with tongues in Scripture.

Is the the Greek word is is Glossa.

Well there go ahead so.

This is your wheelhouse, bro.

Well, there's so the word for tongue.

Yes is Glossa.

But there's also a term that's that's Interchangeable with that and it's it's also

used for language, which is the word dialectus where we get my term dialect.

And and we see that term show up in Acts chapter 2.

So when when we see tongues first appearing in the New Testament in Acts at the day of Pentecost

they are speaking in known dialects.

Correct and this is this is not some kind of gibberish.

This is a known language.

Okay.

Sorry good, it's it's not a language of angels.

Okay, they're not speaking a prayer language.

There's what there is honestly no purpose for a prayer language.

No, no need for it.

Nope.

No, they are not one.

Not when the Son of God the second member of the triune Godhead and the Holy Spirit the third

member of the triune Godhead are constantly inconsistently Interceding for me to the

Father on my behalf right now nowhere in Scripture nowhere in Scripture.

Don't let anybody tell you other one.

We can go through them nowhere in Scripture.

Is there any warrant for some sort of private prayer language where you disengage your mind?

It's quite the opposite.

It's always.

Using your mind, that's correct.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead.

Yeah, that's correct.

No.

So so those terms Are used in in Acts chapter 2 they are used they

can be used kind of interchangeably but the term Glossa all it means is either

to speak or It refers to the organ in your mouth the tongue.

Yeah, that's the only thing it means.

It just means simply means to speak.

That's what it is.

So now We have all of these people in the modern charismatic church

That are trying to attribute the gift of tongues as this nonsensical gibberish That

is that it's in it's it's not intelligible, right?

No one can understand it.

No, no, you never see anyone interpret it what it what it means by what they're saying.

So they're breaking the rules, but yet it continues.

Yep.

Yep.

Well, and it's the same the same rules by the way that you find as far as prophecy.

Apply to tongues like there must be interpreters.

It must be only only one at a time.

It's not it's not multiple and this is all in first Corinthians 14 and then women.

Don't do it.

Right?

So it's when you examine.

When you examine the scriptures and compare it right.

Be a Berean.

Use some discernment to what we see today.

There's no warrant for it.

So in in I know we were gonna talk about good old Mark Driscoll.

But he tweeted today.

I took a screenshot just in case he decides to block me because.

We did interact we did interact.

He does it was an interesting interaction.

He said this to in a tweet today he said.

Quote.

Scripture alone does not contain anything resembling the

doctrines of cessation ism.

If all Bible commentaries disappeared tomorrow, so would cessation ism

period.

Close quote.

No it.

I mean, no, it wouldn't.

We've been going for what 35 minutes and we've already referenced quite a few.

So so it would show that yeah, we can we can see the doctrine of cessation

ism in scripture we can see it where Miracles just aren't being done

right.

Paul doesn't heal trophimus in Miletus.

He doesn't he doesn't send a piece of his robe or cloth to Timothy

to heal Timothy.

He he leaves them sick.

Yeah, now Tim Paul doesn't even tell Timothy pray for your stomach ailments that the Lord might heal you.

He says hey, hey drink some wine for your stomach illness.

Now.

Now, why would that be?

That would be because alcohol is is.

Has a medicinal a medicinal use right when you drink alcohol it kills the bacteria.

That's in your stomach and they're drinking water.

That is that is just dirty water.

It's filled with parasites and bacterias and things.

So, of course if you continually drink the water, you're gonna continually be putting bacteria in your body

as you're traveling along.

But some out some alcohol here some alcohol there will kill that bacteria.

Right in your in your stomach.

So we see we see that that there are gifts that do start to fade out now

another thing that people don't quite realize or pay attention to.

Is I think it's 1st Corinthians chapter 13 Let me turn there.

I should have had it already man.

This is my problem dude all the time even when I'm preaching.

You think of something you're like, oh wait.

No, I have.

I have the text that I want to go to but I'm not.

I don't have it already marked out to turn there.

I Think it's in verse.

Let's start in verse 8.

Yeah, let's start in verse 8 is verse 8 that I'm looking at.

Paul says love never fails.

But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with they will be done away.

If there are tongues, they will cease if there is knowledge.

It will be done away now.

The interesting thing where it says prophecy will be done away.

The phrase done away in The Greek is in the passive

voice.

Now if you don't believe me go get Logos Bible software.

Do a word study right there.

It will tell you that it is in the passive voice.

Okay.

Now, what does it mean that it's in the passive voice?

It means.

Well, no, I'm gonna we're sponsored by log on.

I know I'm kidding.

So What does it mean that it's in the passive voice?

It means that something outside of it will come against it to cause It to

stop right something from the outside will come against that causing it to stop.

Now where it says tongues they will cease that word cease is in

the middle voice.

Okay.

Now let's explain the middle voice.

We have the active voice.

I hit the ball.

We have the passive voice the ball hit me and then we have the middle voice.

I hit myself.

So with this word cease in the middle voice.

It's saying that tongues will cease on their own and you can actually do a word

study.

Through the New Testament with this word being in the middle voice and every time it shows up he

finished he stopped.

Right, he stopped himself.

Right.

That's how it's used.

So so it means it will cease on its own.

Mm -hmm.

Yep, any thoughts?

Lot of thoughts man.

A lot of thoughts.

I like it that you went there and It's very very true.

There is a one -verse apologetic on The fact that that these things have

ceased now I want to be clear too because one of the attacks and one of the misrepresentations all the time that we get as

Cessationist is you guys don't believe in miracles, right?

You guys don't believe that the Holy Spirit moves today.

You don't want to get to that.

Yeah.

Yeah, so you guys I mean We can

you know you guys you guys don't believe it that that that the Lord is still moving.

No, that's not true at all, that's not true at all every time.

Every time the Lord saves a wretched sinner like me.

That's a miracle every single time Regeneration faith is

granted to someone who was once an enemy of the Lord that the

efficacious Application of the finished and ongoing work of the Lord Jesus Christ

on the cross for the forgiveness of sins every time that's applied.

That's a miracle from a temporal standpoint every time one of us gets sick and

by the miraculous creation of the human body we are healed

because of the Antibodies in our system or the medicine that we take if we go see a doctor or the rest

that we get when we sleep.

At night, that's a miracle and if that wasn't enough do we absolutely believe that the Lord

can?

Miraculously, that means that means something that's not normative something that can't be proven.

Miraculously heals those who are sick or though.

I mean in a providential and or miraculous way.

Absolutely.

We do no one's saying that the the difference is cessationist

believe that the normative Gifts given to those individuals.

For those miraculous gifts for the establishing of apostolic authority.

They do not exist today.

Period yeah, and and you know people use first Corinthians 13 all the time you ask for thoughts.

Well, people use first Corinthians 13 one as a defense for private prayer language and the tongues of

angels, right?

Paul saying if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and do not but do not have love I have

become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

That's a rebuke.

That's an admonishment to the Corinthian Church because they were they were over emphasizing these spiritual gifts.

Over what was written in the scriptures?

They were over emphasizing the spiritual gifts instead of what the apostolic commands they received from Paul and the

other Apostles.

That was what he was saying and he was saying look.

Even if there is such a thing as the tongues of angels, but you have not loved you are nothing.

But a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal.

That is not the the guys there is a there's a private prayer

language that the tongues of angels that we need to seek after and want to speak and.

That is not what that means.

Right.

That is not an apologetic.

That is not a defense for.

Unplugging your mind from your worship of God, right, right.

And there's even in getting into that.

What does Paul say about tongues one who speaks in tongues and say in a private in a private prayer language?

He says all he does is he edifies himself.

And and there's a problem with that because the gifts are meant to edify the

church.

They're not meant to edify self.

They're meant to edify the church.

So what point is there in a private prayer language with a gift that's meant to edify the church?

There is right one.

Well, not not to mention that like.

And this is where.

This is where we as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ have got to Do a better job myself included

of thinking biblically.

Why did the Lord when the Holy Spirit fell at Pentecost?

Why did the Lord give the gift of tongues To

those preaching the gospel.

Why did he do that?

Well, there was a part of it was a rebuke to Israel.

It's one exactly so let's pause there for a second.

It was a judgment.

It was a judgment of God to to to Israel right, so

understand that when.

When that happens if you have a place in a church in a person and a pastor who's claiming that he's speaking in some Sort of

tongues that you can understand.

That's a judgment.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yeah, and and it's specifically tied to the to the grafting in of the Gentiles because Christ

said what he says There's a people who are not my people that I will call my people.

Room.

Well.

Yeah, well tongues is a gift in order to draw those people so that the gospel can go

out.

Right to those people by messengers who have not learned that language, correct?

Correct, and that's why it's miraculous, right?

Now and now I've had the question now Chris, would you say that that that God couldn't do that today?

No, I Would never I would hope Be so boastful and

arrogant to say that God could not do that today as he could he

sure he absolutely could if there was if there was a group of people who were part of the elect and there was

one person that went to share the gospel with them and they did Not know the language and the Lord chose

In that moment to miraculously gift that person with the proclamation of the gospel of God and the Lord Jesus Christ

according to the scriptures.

Then yes.

But it is not a normative practice that we find today nor is it a gift that we should seek

after?

If we're gonna go and share the gospel with different people groups that that know a different language Then we

need to be a pro learn that language and the ability to communicate the truths of God's Word in that

language now that gets us into.

More of an apologetic.

For cessationism and and against continuationism.

Because where we see the modern view of tongues really start

to take shape is in 1900 in Topeka, Kansas under

Charles Fox Parham and we've discussed this on the show several times but what happened was

there was a student of Parham named Agnes Osmond and The spirit came upon her and she spoke in what she

called Chinese Chinese and Supposedly wrote in Chinese and I love what Phil Johnson

says.

He says if you've ever seen it, then you don't have to speak Chinese to know she's not writing in China

in the cessationist movie.

They have a screenshot of what it was.

Yeah, right, right.

And of course Andrews wife speaks the language reads the language and you know.

She says yeah, that's nothing.

That's chicken scratch of nothing but.

What happened was?

Parham sent a group of missionaries to China in Believing

that that this group of people would go and the miraculous Gift of tongues would fall upon

them and they would be able to speak in Chinese and convert the people there.

So so so what were they thinking that the gift of tongues was.

Immediately their assumption was that it was a known human language.

It was not gibberish.

Only once they came back and that missionary attempt failed.

Only once they came back did Parham say oh, well, this must be some kind of other Ecstatic

utterance and that's where the idea of language attributing that to the language of angels came from.

So they had to change the definition of tongues because what they weren't what they weren't doing was speaking in tongues.

So they had to change it.

But initially they thought this was a known language because scripture clearly teaches

in Acts 2 known languages.

Yeah, yeah, well acts 2 acts 10 acts 14 and then you see it once in mark.

I'd have to go back and look oh.

Yeah.

No, you do see it once in mark.

It's in the the textual variant.

At the end the added verse long.

Right right right added end.

But still which by the way, if you have a 12 verse long textual variant, okay.

Let's just use some caution when we're relying upon that one, correct?

So it's.

Here's here's brother here's something else too I've been thinking about man is just as we've been just kind of mulling over this and as you guys can tell this is

very Freestyle, we don't have any notes so One of

the things I've been thinking about a lot lately just because of our background right my background as far as leading music and worship in churches

you probably did it with me for a year and You know, but it's

amazing how much Charismatic ministry philosophy

Has infected the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ today.

And I use the word infected for a reason now.

Let me let me also stop here and be very very clear.

I do not and Would not ever say That there are brothers and sisters out

there who are continuationist or charismatic who aren't believers, right?

I do not believe that and and do not hold to that and and no one that we would hold to know that either.

No, absolutely not say that Andrew wouldn't say that John MacArthur wouldn't say that.

No, we're crying out loud.

He's got a continuationist coming to speak at the Shepherds Conference in March.

So You know, it's because he's a friend of his you know what I mean?

And and he is a solid preacher.

But like I said earlier, we just got to be very very careful.

You know, I'm reading a book right now by William Spurstow entitled the wiles of

Satan and It's it's only this thick.

It's not very thick.

It's Less than an inch thick but it's dense.

And one of the things that that William Spurstow. He's a Puritan points out in this book is That we have to

remember as scripture tells us that even the demons know the scriptures and they shudder.

Satan is a better theologian than we could ever hope to be.

Yep, bro.

We got a special guest that just popped up in the oh cool.

All right.

I think I'm gonna bring him on.

All right, let me finish this thought first.

Okay, okay.

Tell you tell our special guest to wait.

I might regret it.

I'm sorry.

But we have to remember that he is older than all of us.

He knows God And knows the scriptures and so we just have to be very

Very very careful when we say we are open to my continuations brothers and sisters out there.

We have to be very very careful when we say we were open but cautious.

Shut the door.

Yeah, let's just stick to what the scriptures say and what the scriptures teach and

Stop yearning for more.

You don't need more.

So it's like it's like I say about leaky dispensationalist, right?

Whenever something leaks it means there's a broken pipe somewhere.

You got a fix.

Yes.

So let me bring in our special guest Mr. Justin Peters.

How you doing, brother?

Hey guys.

Hey, man.

Hey brothers, y 'all doing?

All right, that's a great man.

How are you?

I had to throw in that dispensational joke just because you were back.

I.

Figured that was the case.

I figured it was either Justin or Jim.

I was like, okay.

He's throwing that in there.

Yeah, I didn't think I drew texted me earlier and asked me if I could come on.

I really didn't think I'd be able to because I had something scheduled but that had to be rescheduled.

So, okay.

Cool.

I thought I'd pop in for a little bit.

Oh, please.

Yes.

Yeah, do you we would love it?

I mean because this is a topic that you have been dealing with for a very long time and of course if anyone

who knows you follows you knows your story and In

seeking out, you know healing from from these supposed faith healers.

So you've been dealing with this for a very very long time.

Yeah.

Yeah, I have that was kind of my introduction to the movement.

A lot of people think the reason that I'm a cessationist is because of what I experienced as a as a teenager,

but Nothing could be further from the truth.

I wasn't even converted as a teenager I thought I was but I wasn't so that that really has no bearing at all one

way or the other on my theology now so I'm convinced of

cessationism because of Scripture and the nature of miracles and church

history and.

Yeah, and the observational Evidence for it simply supports

what I already see in Scripture, right?

Yeah, and that's you know, when.

When when I started moving into the cessationist camp I was going to a vineyard church and

Vineyard if for our listeners if you don't know then the vineyard was birthed out of the Jesus people movement

from the 1970s.

John Wimber.

And he also which is funny John Wimber doesn't have Doesn't clearly doesn't have a good gift of

prophecy to know that Lonnie Frisbee Who helped him launch the vineyard movement was

a homosexual?

Weird about that, but.

But but I was in the I was in the vineyard church and I was going to

Liberty University and I had to write a paper on Charismatic gifts versus cessationism.

And of course one of the books that I had to get was the strange fire book and

Reading through the strange fire book.

It blew my mind right just the biblical evidence that dr MacArthur lays out in there.

Yeah.

And then I also started looking at the church itself that I was attending because I would see people have

these words of knowledge people Are having these prophecies.

People are speaking in tongues and I'm going.

Why isn't that happening to me?

Hmm.

Am I not holy enough?

Am I not seeking God enough?

Do I not have that connection that all these other people seem to have what's wrong with me?

And no one's told me no one said well, it's because you don't have enough faith.

It was the natural conclusion.

I arrived at from watching all these other people trying to do it myself and then failing.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah.

Yep.

Yeah, exactly it it it puts a burden on people.

I heard MacArthur described the charismatic movement this way.

He said it is doubt looking for proof.

Oh doubt looking and and that is a great way to describe this

movement because the dirty little secret of the charismatic movement is is that the vast majority

of Those in this movement don't really believe.

What they say they believe or they're they're riddled with doubts about Scripture about the

Bible in general.

They're riddled with doubts about the gospel.

And so that is why they're constantly searching after the next buzz the next dream

the next vision the next trip to heaven the next time the next wonder.

It's this endless hamster wheel of Going after the next

shiny object, right?

Chasing after the next buzz because they're trying to they're trying to find something to

to put those doubts to bed because they're riddled with doubts and the Bible is not enough

and it's just not enough for them and so, you know, if if charismatic spent

a fraction of the time Exegeting scripture that they do exegeting their own

experiences and their own dreams and visions.

Yeah.

Well for one thing they wouldn't be charismatic anymore, right.

Yeah, it is.

I thought that was a great way to describe.

It's an endless hamster.

Yeah.

Yeah, there's a there was this Comment by Melissa Owen and it took me back to something else.

But she said I had a continuationist tell me that cessationist churches are dead because we quench the

Holy Spirit.

Now that's something we do here right that we quench the spirit.

You don't believe in the works of the Spirit, but it took me back to the

notion of experience versus seeking holiness.

Through the gospel of Christ because these these charismatic churches.

They rely on experience just unlike you were talking about they're seeking after the next thing

because why.

Because the the plain ordinary Means of grace that is the preaching

of the word is not enough the gospel message of Christ is not enough for them.

That's right.

They must pursue something more.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's standpoint epistemology from a biblical standpoint.

Yep, or they're trying to say it's biblical.

It's it's all based upon their experience instead of you know.

Instead of turning to the scriptures go ahead and into the point of quenching the spirit.

Appreciate that comment from Alyssa Melissa.

Yeah, I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard Charismatic say oh, you don't believe in the

Holy Spirit.

You don't believe in the power of the Holy Spirit.

You know to the contrary as a cessationist as Cessationist

we should cede no ground in our pneumatology to the charismatics.

Hey, man, I I do not believe my view of the Holy Spirit is such that I do

not believe That someone can be indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Teach the heresies that these people teach.

I'm not all charismatics, but the big leaders of the charismatic I do not you know, the Copeland's

and the hens and the Bill Johnson's and Duplantis's and all those guys.

I do not believe that they can teach.

The heresies they teach offer the false prophecies that they offer.

Exploit the poor the sick the desperate and the widows for their own personal financial gain.

Mm -hmm be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and feel no conviction for that, right?

I don't believe that's possible.

My view of the Holy Spirit is far too high for that, right?

Truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit of God would drop them to their knees under such heavy conviction.

That's right.

Yeah, and that's not happening at all.

And So it is not it's not we who have a low view of the hell Holy Spirit.

It's it's they who have a low view of the Holy Spirit.

I yeah again, I'll say it as cessations.

We see no ground in our pneumatology to the charismatic movement.

That's right.

You know and one of the things that that we do see it as cessationists within

the cessationist group is I think we see some some people who are

afraid to use some of the language.

That we that we would use for the Holy Spirit right the Holy Spirit moving or the Holy Spirit in

action.

Because we have seen it so perverted by the charismatic movement so we kind of stay away from

that language because it's been misused by the Holy Spirit and.

And let me tell my cessationist friends that might be listening don't be afraid of that, right.

We understand the Holy Spirit moves if we have such a high view of the Holy Spirit He does

the miraculous things such as Chris you explained earlier.

The greatest miracle that that we can we can ever witness where the dead

lifeless person comes to life where their their heart of stone is replaced with a heart of flesh

and they have now been Born again come to life in Christ.

That is the greatest miracle that we can see.

It's not leg lengthening, right?

It's not any type of Temporary healing it is the eternal healing that comes through the gift

of salvation.

Amen.

Yep.

That's right.

That's the that's the greatest miracle of all and I tell people maybe you all heard me say this if

God could heal me right now if my CP my cerebral palsy he can heal me right now.

Make me run like a deer.

But even if he did that that Miracle would pale in comparison.

That's right.

God did for me when he saved me from my sin.

Right, that's the greatest miracle.

And I Affirm, I have no problem at all with believing that God still heals

people today.

Sovereign will to do so.

That's right, and I've seen a few not a lot, but I have seen a few credible

Credible testimonies of miraculous healing not not a slow recovery over a time, but a

Miraculous healing.

I've seen a few of those so I had no problem with that.

So I don't reject that what I do reject that there are miracle workers today.

I absolutely reject it, right?

Right, and I love what you said.

I forgot.

It may have been in the strange fire conference one of your talks in the strange fire Conference where you said

My my cerebral palsy is only temporary.

Because I have I have eternity to live without it and I thought that was the most powerful thing.

Yeah, that could be said and it's so funny because right after the first American gospel came out.

Well, maybe not right after it was a little bit after but there was a clip of Something you were

saying going around on Facebook and I kind of grabbed that clip and I shared it and this was right after Chris.

And I met you at cruciform and you know, we spent time together and got to know you someone that I

used to go to the vineyard church with commented under that and said I think he's just bitter

and he's angry.

And I said I said well I've just spent you know the last

weekend or so With Justin and getting to know Justin.

If you know him, you would never be able to say anything like that because there is no bitterness.

He is the kindest person you could ever run into even with those who disagree with him.

I was like, so I think you might want to change your position on that.

Well, I appreciate that brother, thank you.

That's kind and encouraging.

Thank you for that.

Well, Justin, what would you say man?

If you know, I mean, I mean look I mean Mark Driscoll.

He just said cessationism looks at a world full of infant genocide war and political corruption.

Just says my biggest enemy is that artsy young pastor with sneakers and a guitar.

I'm no fan of skinny jeans, but I don't I Do

not think that that is the biggest Threat or biggest problem in the world.

No, I read that.

I was like what an absurd thing to say.

What an absurd thing to say?

Yeah.

Yeah, Mark Driscoll.

My goodness that guy.

That guy's a dumpster fire.

I mean he is an absolute train wreck on yeah, he's.

He's disqualified from being in the ministry.

Yep.

You know, he's been on this rant.

I actually want to got so many things I want to do it and Hopper of things to do but I want to do a video of

Mark Driscoll and his recent rant against cessationism and

And Some of you may have seen this but I have a video clip of Mark Driscoll.

It's several years old.

It's maybe about 10 years old now.

Mm -hmm, but it's titled.

I see things.

Have y 'all seen this?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Yes, I have wait.

Is this the one where he's talking about?

He'll be in prayer and a curtain will come down and he'll see what a husband does with his wife and okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, well, yeah, not not just a husband with his wife, but he'll see.

He'll get visions.

And he actually ironic maybe this is the gift of discernment.

I'm like, dude.

No, he says that he gets visions of people in the act of

fornicating correct in such detail that he can tell what the room looks like in the

in the positions people are in which is just.

Disgusting, isn't it?

It's so weird that all of these people who get these visions They're always so crass and

image and Inappropriate.

Oh, yeah, and even even like Todd Bentley where all of his all of his acts

center around some form of violence.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

That's right.

Yeah, there there's a I tell people whatever a man is willing to do and say in public.

Rest assured that it's far worse behind close.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, there is something deeply wrong when a man has the kind of

Boldness in a negative way to get behind the pulpit and describe in detail

Something like that and then attribute it to the holy emphasis upon.

Holy Spirit.

Huh?

If that's if that's what charismatic theology gets you I'll pass hard pass on that.

No, thanks.

That is that is so disgusting.

Oh, and then then in the same video he talks about how he says he went up to someone and

says when you were a Baby, or I think he said baby Your

grandfather did something to you, didn't he?

You know?

And Let's see he.

And then he said he went to the person went to the offending person this grandfather.

I know what you did.

You did you?

Did you molest.

Your grandson or a granddaughter?

Whoever was.

Did you a less this child?

Well, yeah.

Yeah sure did.

I'm like wait.

Wait a minute.

Who does that?

Like you're gonna go up to somebody's hey, did you molest this child, you know upteen years ago like well, yes.

Yes, I did right.

Yeah.

Come on, man.

I mean what a bald -faced lie, right?

Yeah, yeah there and that's another thing that we see with the charismatic movement, right.

All these claims.

That can't be verified.

No, they just throw these things out these stories.

No one else was around them when this happened and so it can't be verified.

You don't know the person so you can't go up to them and ask them.

Hey, is this true?

Right.

It's just like you just said it's just a bunch of lies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

You know, oh go ahead.

No, no, go ahead brother.

Go ahead, you know, I'm struck Bob.

Just what you were saying drew none of these signs and wonders can be verified.

You hear all these all these stories about miracles and healings and all this kind of stuff happening.

None of them zero of them Can ever be verified and

documented and you don't see in the charismatic movement today what we read in Scripture when

Peter right and John healed the man who was born crippled in Acts chapter 3 in

Acts chapter 4 when he was healed and Then even the enemies of the gospel the

enemies of Christ had to admit That a real sign and wonder had taken place.

In fact, I got it for here in front of me.

Acts chapter 4 verse 16 What shall we do with these men for the fact that a noteworthy sign has

happened through them as a parent to all who live?

In Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.

Exactly, and that goes back to you and brother.

We were actually on the same page right there that goes back to what I said earlier is When the Lord

gifted it blessed these men these Apostles capital -a Apostles with the ability to do

these things.

The whole point was to establish their authority their whole point.

They always pointed back to Christ.

They were truth tellers.

They they Encouraged admonished and edified the church and people around them to seek

after holiness to put to death the mortified the deeds of the flesh.

Not to boast them in them not to brag on them not to in an immature vile visceral

way Describe things that are gonna cause people to stumble.

That they would encourage these men to grow up or people around them to grow up in their faith.

Not to remain immature to where when you're challenged, you know your whole response is well.

Well, the cessation is camped.

They tear people down all the time so I can say whatever I want about them.

It's like really You are a 50 -some -odd year old man grow up one number two

you profess to be a pastor.

Where's the biblical maturity?

It doesn't give you permission to sin in response to perceived sin against you.

What is that nonsense?

Right.

Yeah and talking about.

Because let's take this verifiability.

Let's take it to Scripture right when Jesus healed someone.

What did he tell them to do?

He though he said either go present yourself in the temple as clean

as healed or You had where he were blind were able to to now see.

People verified it.

Yes, someone who was born blind can now see it's verified just unlike you were talking about acts for.

They healed the man who was lame who couldn't walk and what he it was verified because now he

can go into the temple to worship.

All of all of the the signs and wonders and healings that took place and

specifically healings were all Verified by the people around right now.

Now we have no Verifiability of these supposed people being raised from the dead,

right?

I mean, how many people did Todd Bentley claim were that he raised from the dead like it's almost.

Yeah, it's a ridiculous number and yet none of it can be verified.

Reinhardt Bonnke would say the same.

He would talk about going to Africa and raising people from the dead.

No verifiability of anything in the age of cell phones where everyone was just about to say

that man.

Yep, Francis Chan to you know a few years ago.

He claimed that he was in a village and where was it.

Burma.

Burma, right?

Yeah, and he healed all these kids in the village.

And when someone asked him why do you not have Video of this he said well, we didn't have a cell phone

signal.

Well, you don't need a cell phone signal know about your smartphone and take a video.

Yeah, so.

Which is interesting about that because on the cessationist movie they talk about that.

Yes.

They they showed the clip of Francis Chan saying that and then someone who actually knows Missionaries there

says this happens all the time.

They bring in some American preacher pastor and they do this healing Service

where everyone gets miraculously healed, but those people that are getting healed they're being paid.

Yeah, but by the churches there there there is so much fraud in the charismatic movement.

I mean guys I've seen it.

I've been in the trenches.

I've been to 18 different Benny Hinn crusades.

I've been to Kenneth Copeland meetings.

Jesse to Plantis.

I'm in the Lakewood Church.

I've been Joyce Meyer Creflo dollars.

I've been to these things and I've seen the fraud.

Firsthand I've seen the deception.

I've talked to a lady before who used to be one of Benny Hinn's a donors like gave big

bucks to be Until the day so as an a donor.

She is afforded Front -row seating special parking at the Crusades

and this sweet lady.

You know, she was very sincere, but she was sincerely wrong at the time.

But she was given special parking around the back and she just happened to pull up.

Right at the time that they were unloading empty wheelchairs out of a truck.

To go into the Benny Hinn crusade and then right at the the same magical time.

Every time he does a crusade these wheelchairs just magically appear on the stage and they're empty like, oh, they've been.

He'll she saw this witnessed it with her own eyes.

I talked to her Wow and and then and she was so disillusioned.

She was no longer one of his eight owners.

Left the ministry, but this is blatant fraud.

Blatant fraud and and you've got yeah, don't get me started.

Yeah.

That goes back to.

I mean, it's just if I think of John I think of John MacArthur saying You know if the Lord is going to to

give people these gifts Again to establish some sort of authority he is not going to give them to the

charlatans.

Those who malign his name malign his word take his name in vain by Attributing works to him that he wants no

part of.

I mean who's really quenching the Holy Spirit.

We talked about that.

It's just not gonna happen.

And you just think of all of the lives that have been devastated.

And and hearts that have been broken and and the eternal consequences.

That's what I think of man I think of.

I've been listening back through this past week to all of the messages from a strange fire and You know by

John talking about I mean those hearing those words out of Matthew 7.

Lord Lord.

Did we not the sign your name?

Did we not heal in your name?

And did we not X Y & Z.

And Away from me.

I never knew you.

Who's he talking about in that passage those people who know?

Right know who he is.

Who claimed to name signs and wonders.

Claims to perform Miracles.

Claim to cast out demons.

Those aren't cessationist now.

I'm not saying every cessationist.

Is it as a Christian?

I'm not saying that right, but that is specifically tailored.

Yeah to people who claim to perform signs and wonders, right, right.

That's it.

You know now one of the things and I and Chris you and I talked about this last week through

text message.

When we saw Mark Driscoll's text or his tweet and when we

we heard another Pastor and acts 29 pastor that we refer to as

Dollar General Mark Driscoll.

Talking about how it's always it's really always the cessationists that are

causing divisions in the church.

But that's not true.

Yeah, because and this is what I said to you It's not the cessationists that

are causing division in the church.

It's the so -called Continuationists or the open but cautious who are causing the division

because they continually Misrepresent what the cessationist position is

even when they're corrected.

So so these guys that they they they make a ridiculous claim.

They're corrected about what cessationists actually believe but they don't care and they keep saying

it anyway.

Yeah, they don't care.

You know, I'm a obvious a big critic of all these big -name word -faith NAR

folks.

But I can tell you one thing.

I don't misrepresent what they teach, right?

I'm not gonna do that.

No, there's no for one thing.

There's no need to do it.

I don't have.

I mean I couldn't make up this kind of stuff.

If I wanted to all you do is play the video and say here, right?

Right.

Yeah, I mean who can make up speaking a squirrel into existence like one guy did

Literally Spoke a squirrel into existence.

I don't have to make anything up.

But you're right.

You're right drew that they they constantly misrepresent the definition of cessationism, even

though I I Alone have given the definition Thousands of time.

Oh, I know and many many many others have it's not like this is a hard, you know.

A hard thing to find out.

It's not like it's hard to come up with a real right definition of cessationism, right?

You know.

You know and this is what we heard and this is what I sent to Chris that this pastor said he said cessationists in the church.

They have their guard hat on and they don't want to let in anything weird.

Whereas the open but cautious they have the gardener hat on and they're trying to

nurture and pray with the sick and for The sick and and help grow people and I'm going

cessationists do that, too.

Yeah, exactly.

No, like what do you think?

We just we just don't pray for people, right?

We don't try to try to help people along like look when someone tells me whenever we're in

Wednesday night Bible study and we take prayer requests for people who are sick or anything and I'm asked to

pray.

I always pray that the Lord would heal these people with whatever it is.

I pray Lord.

Will you reach down and when will you heal these people of whatever infirmity that they have?

Why because I believe in a God who can heal them, right?

I don't believe he's inactive in that.

I believe he can absolutely heal people.

I don't reject that but yeah people want to just say no you just want to let not let things

in the church that are Weird.

No.

Well, yeah, I don't want weird things in the church.

I don't want bad things in the church.

Yeah, but but but it doesn't stop there.

I want to help grow people in the Lord.

I want them to come and grow in holiness and I want them but I want them to know the Holy Spirit as

The Holy Spirit presents himself in Scripture and not through some kind of nonsense.

That's that's taught through people who don't actually know the Word of God.

That's right.

That's right.

Absolutely.

You know there there's no theology of suffering in the charismatic movement.

No, right?

In fact Bill Johnson He said I quote.

I Refuse to create a theology that allows for sickness.

Which is which is very interesting considering what happened last year.

You two years before.

Yeah and you know last summer.

And I'm not.

I'm not trying to make light of it for our listeners, but.

What's her name.

Benny.

Benny Johnson.

Johnson, yeah, she passed away of cancer.

She had been battling cancer for a long time.

So.

So, how do we relate?

That form of suffering with what her husband Bill Johnson says.

That's right.

That's right.

It's irreconcilable.

Yeah, I have a video clip of Bill Johnson from just a few years ago.

And he I don't have it memorized but to paraphrase very very closely.

He says if you're not getting the answer that you're praying for change what you're praying.

He says if if you're not getting results.

The problem is not with him referring to God.

The problem is not with him.

So in other words, it's with you.

So if you're not getting the results for healing.

The problem is with you.

Okay, Bill.

Well, if that's true, then what does that say about you because your wife just died of cancer.

Yeah, and had it for years before she died.

Yeah for at least four or five years before she died.

So and I take no joy in that none of us do right, right.

But right, but it is interesting that what the faith preachers preach doesn't work for them.

And then there was that little olive girl, you know, the little toddler.

They tried to raise her from the dead.

Benny Johnson ironically prophesied that she would be raised from the dead on the third day.

And and she wasn't so Nabil Qureshi.

Yeah.

He also died of cancer and he was at Bethel so they've had some very public.

Very big failures.

And yeah, well, especially during kovat when they shut down their their healing rooms.

Yeah, right.

I know.

It's what it just goes on and on and on, you know that the evidence is overwhelming.

Yeah, they can't do what they say they can do.

They can't.

They get sick at the same rate that cessationists get sick.

Yep, they recover in God's providence at the same rate.

We do.

They die at the same rate we do.

There is absolutely no difference if you go into a let's say you go into John MacArthur's Church

and Take a sample of a thousand people at random.

I guarantee you the percentage of people wearing glasses Will be exactly the same.

If you were to go and take a thousand people at random at Bethel Church I can guarantee you.

Yeah, there will be just as many people wearing eyeglasses at Bethel as there is at John MacArthur Church.

There's yeah, and was it.

Was it you Justin who said never trust a faith healer who wears glasses?

That's right.

Never trust a faith healers wearing eyeglasses.

But.

It's almost like every time this topic gets brought up cessationism versus continuationism.

It's almost as if there's more Emotional

baggage than there is with the argument of Calvinism and Arminianism.

I mean these become such

emotional arguments.

But between people Just simply saying no, I believe the sign gifts

have ceased and then someone says Well, no, I speak in I spoke in

tongues last week and Now I view you as my enemy.

Yeah, and now I need to go go for your throat.

I've noticed that a lot lately within the past couple of years.

Yeah.

Because if you.

Because their entire theology is based off of experiences.

Correct.

Not based off of Scripture.

It's based off of Experiences what they think they've experienced.

So if you question that, you know that then you're you're undermining the entirety

of their belief system.

They're there which they hold very Loosely to anyway, because they're so riddled with

doubt.

But that's like that that's that's the straw that they're that they're grasping.

Is these these experiences, you know.

I had a dream, you know, someone gave me a word of knowledge and they're clinging to these these

straws.

Correct.

That they're clinging to them and if you take those away they got nothing.

They've got nothing there.

There are two things.

I think of Drew when you when you say what you just said

Justin to your point the experience and and when you think about what they're doing when these experiences

happening it happening.

It's an act of worship.

For them.

It's an act of adoration and affection to the Lord.

Supposedly, but I think of drew this quote that we have shared.

I've lost count how many times we've shared this quote.

Dr. Anthony Mathenia who said he a doctor.

I think so.

Maybe he's not Anthony.

He's a pastor.

Even if he's not a doctor, he should be honorary doctorate given by me.

There you go.

I'm speaking it into existence anyway.

But Anthony Mathenia says nothing angers the self -righteous more than being told that their worship of God is

wrong.

Mm -hmm.

And That carries weight in this and that when we're talking about this as well.

You know, don't you tell me that the way I'm work?

No, it's it's a self -righteous thing.

It's a pride thing.

Ultimately, I think also the reason it becomes so emotional is

is I Hope you know for those who do are indwelt by the Spirit who would say they are brothers and

sisters in Christ.

It's the it's the Lord convicting them.

But they're not gonna they're not can submit to that conviction.

They're not gonna submit to the conscience and like their consciousness as well going this is wrong because their pride won't let them.

They're fighting it with all they have.

Instead of just acquiescing to what their scriptures teach.

Yeah.

That's right.

Yes.

Yeah, and another thing that people get emotional about is when you say when you point out the fact that hey

miracles weren't Very common in Scripture, you know but just like I talked

about at the beginning of the show Chris where Where you can you can go through Scripture and the entirety of Scripture and look at all the

miracles that took place.

Yep it wasn't a common thing and and one of my favorite quotes is from Jim Osman who said if

if Miracles are normative or if miracles are common, then they're not miracles because

then they're what they're common, right?

They're not miraculous.

That's right.

And I put that I commented that on Twitter and people just had a field day.

They couldn't understand they couldn't wrap their minds around the idea, right?

And then they would say well, oh well Jesus John said that Jesus did miracles that that wouldn't even

be a number of miracles.

It wouldn't be contained in all the books and I said, yeah.

But you're missing you're really missing it because of who Jesus is and the point for Jesus doing

miracles.

And we can see that in Scripture.

Why did Jesus do miracles because he's establishing himself as the set one of God?

Yeah, and that's not why he came.

He didn't come to do miracles.

He didn't come to do miracles.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then when we see the Apostles doing miracles What are they doing?

They're validating the message of Christ.

Yes, so everything points back to Christ.

Yeah, and we can actually Sorry, just and go ahead.

But if you really want a good Explanation of this Jim Osman

in his Series on Hebrews if you just listen to I think it's

chapter 1 him going through chapter 1.

Which is probably like 10 sermons the way, you know, Jim likes to break things down.

But but he said he gives you a daisy chain pretty much of scriptures

one going through Jesus and Jesus doing miracles and the purpose and then the other through the

Apostles and all the scriptures that list who did a who did the miracles, right?

It was Jesus and it was the Apostles and those outside of them who did miracles.

We see them in two instances, right Philip and no Stephen yeah, Stephen and Philip.

I think I think it was now they weren't Apostles, but they were yeah.

Yeah, right.

All right.

Now they weren't Apostles, but they were closely Associated with the possible Apostles and that's the point Jim makes

so the only people we see working miracles in the New Testament is Jesus the Apostles or

those who are closely tied to the Apostles.

Yep.

That's right.

You don't see Christians at large Performing miracles.

You don't in fact it says I don't have in front of me X to think.

It's X to says in many.

Many signs and wonders were taking place at the hands of the Apostles among the people right.

So.

Yeah, Christians at large weren't performing signs and wonders and I I also want to got so many videos I want to do on

my youtube channel, but I want to do a video and it's gonna be an open challenge to

Todd white Andrew Womack who says that he can reach out and touch people and heal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I text you at g3 when you were at g3 about mentioning Andrew Womack.

Because yeah, he's one that flies under the radar.

People don't pay attention.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, he does but he's he's huge.

He's got a massive.

Ministry.

So they they claim to be able to heal.

In fact, I've got very recent like within a couple weeks ago recent video clip of

Andrew Womack Saying that he can heal people not not just pray for or not.

You know, the healing is not dependent upon the person now.

He can just heal someone so my open challenge is Heal me

heal me.

If you come and heal me of my cerebral palsy Then I'll shut my

ministry down.

It would be a huge PR win for you.

Yeah, and they're gonna say oh, well, you don't have faith.

On the contrary no, I have Complete and total faith that God is able to heal

me of my cerebral palsy.

There were many times many people that Jesus healed in the Apostles healed who had apparently

no faith at all.

Right, they didn't need to know who he was.

He just was.

They couldn't pick out Jesus.

They they couldn't they didn't know him from Cooter Brown.

So there were a lot of people that they healed With absolutely no faith.

So I've got the faith that said I know that God created me.

He can heal me so Heal me I mean it would be a tremendous it

would put to bed the whole of it.

It would be a tremendous boon for their ministries.

So heal me of cerebral palsy I'll shut my ministry down and You'll be

sitting in the fabled cat bird seat.

So, you know, here's a I.

Love I love that challenge and You know, he's not he's not going to

respond which is no, you know, he's gonna he's gonna run away from that one

but I Wanted to bring this out.

Jesus healing the paralytic in Mark chapter 2 now the

point of this is Not Jesus healing the paralytic right because

that wasn't even Jesus's Goal that what that wasn't the whole goal when we

look at the story at what took place so beginning in in verse

4 of chapter 2 of the book of Mark Being unable this is the friends of the paralytic

being unable to get to him.

Because the of the crowd they removed the roof above him and when they had dug an

opening They let down the pallet on which the paralytic was let was lying and Jesus

seeing their faith said to the paralytic son your sins are forgiven.

Notice.

Jesus doesn't go directly for healing.

He deals with the sin issue.

Yeah, correct the heart issue.

He says your sin is your sins are forgiven.

But some of the scribes were sitting there in reasoning in their hearts.

Why does this man speak that way he is blaspheming.

Blaspheming who can forgive sins, but God alone, right?

And and so there their whole anger is directed towards the fact that Jesus

Forgave sins not that he healed them because he hasn't even done that yet.

Jesus's primary goal is the sin issue the heart issue and they're upset that he

forgave their sin.

Immediately Jesus aware in his spirit.

That they were reasoning that way within themselves said to them.

Why are you reasoning about these things in your heart?

Which is easier to say to the paralytic your sins are forgiven or to say

get up and pick up your pallet and walk.

But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.

He said to the paralytic I say to you get up pick up your pallet and go home.

So he forgave sins.

We're upset that you that you're forgiving sins because who can do that?

But God, you know what?

Okay, who can forgive sin?

But God, you know what?

I'll prove my power to you that I am from God that I am God incarnate.

Okay, pick up your pallet and walk.

That's right the healing Was was kind of an afterthought.

That just proved his authority To forgive sin.

So what's the primary focus of Christ to forgive sin to deal to bring salvation and

deal with the heart issue?

That's exactly right.

That's exactly right, Drew, and I'm glad you brought that up.

You're spot -on.

Hey, I just happen to notice a comment by Melissa Owens there in the Andrew Womack lied about his son dying

and coming back to life.

There we go.

His wife slipped up and said he was in a drug -induced coma and they gave him Narcan and he came out of it.

I'm familiar with this story, but I would I did not know this about his wife.

So Melissa, I'm assuming you're still watching.

If you have the the source for that, I would love to see it.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, I was.

Andrew Womack tells this story pretty regularly.

He's mentioned a number of times and I I know like I know my name.

It's not true.

So I would love to see that Melissa if you wouldn't mind.

You can email me Justin at justinpeters .org and send that to me if you have it, thank you.

All right.

So we do have someone backstage that That has some questions not pertaining to

this, but he's an atheist and he loves the show.

And he wanted Justin to stick around too.

He said he has a lot of respect for you, Justin.

But before we bring him on I do want to mention our sponsors.

And that is of course if we have been boring you with this talk of cessationism.

And you need a place to rest your head, you know, just go pick up a mypillow.

There it is.

No one uses 1 -800 numbers anymore.

So I don't even know why that's on there.

Andrew should probably change that.

But just go to mypillow .com promo code SFE.

Get a get you a discount get you a nice pillow to sleep on and I mentioned Lagos Bible software

earlier.

They're one of the sponsors Lagos Bible software go to Lagos .com slash SFE the promo

code.

Get you a discount on some Lagos.

I love it.

I use it Chris have you gotten it yet?

You still haven't gotten it.

Have you?

Yeah, I only say it every time you're on here.

I know Justin uses it.

Yep.

I got it.

Yeah.

Yeah, Justin uses it so much.

They actually go to Justin and say hey, we need your commentary on this.

So We're gonna bring in Evan Evan who is backstage.

Evan thanks for coming on the show.

Yeah.

Can you guys hear me?

Well, I'm clear we can.

I can't tell you I'm being completely earnest about this.

What an honor it is To be here with you guys.

I listen to a matter of theology Justin Peters has been profoundly Influential on my thinking if I

can briefly give a little background about myself.

I'm an attorney.

I was born Jewish secular Jewish.

I was bar mitzvahed.

I I can't think of a time.

I ever believed in God politically, I am very conservative and so I see you guys

as Brethren in a sense in a strange kind of way and and I've listened to a lot

of Greg Bonson Sermons Paul Washer Doug Wilson.

I've read Spurgeon.

I've read Sproul.

And I've only really been looking into Christianity for the past year I want to know what my neighbors believe and I have a tremendous amount of

respect for you guys and in particular Calvinists and in particular cessationists.

Justin I've watched a lot of your videos about these clowns like Duplantis and and

Creflo dollar and I think you mentioned the squirrel.

I think that was Bobby Connor.

I listened to your.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah Womack that this this tragic story of this olive girl Which was

horrifying.

I read some of the posts on it and it is, you know, disgusting that they're giving this family false Hope about this.

And I feel like I'm intruding on an intramural discussion.

So I apologize for that.

But at the same time You know these people kind of anger me in a

way because I think they're Blaspheming kind of dignified religion that I see

Calvinists having Michael Brown.

I've listened to a lot of him and and I know that you've pointed out He's defended Kenneth Copeland.

He's defended a lot of these people who yeah, you know are Propounding these

absurd doctrines.

I've wanted to watch this cessationist film.

I listened to James White at g3 the other day and I haven't had a chance

to watch it yet, but I'm Interested in seeing that when I get a chance.

And and you know, I think you guys are fighting against a stereotype that Christians are absurdly

credulous With which a lot of these faith healer types are really pushing.

And it bothers me.

I mean, I you know, I I find myself getting into debates with atheists and people

of other faiths who say things about the Christian religion that are incorrect and from my listening to

people like you guys and other Faithful Christians.

I'm able to rebut for example.

I got into a discussion with a guy the other day.

He said Someone some some organization was called soldiers of Christ and he said where's that in

the Bible?

Have you ever read Paul?

I mean, right specifically calls Christians to be soldiers of Christ.

You know, I think it's a fusion six where he talks about the armor of God.

I mean this language is throughout the the scriptures and it's it's amazing to me that people have such a

Paltry understanding of the gospel and of the scriptures.

And so I have a tremendous amount of respect for you guys I know Chris

said there earlier that and I noted this at the beginning Chris that you said you thought atheists shared more in

common with continuationists, but this atheist certain certainly doesn't and I

feel like I Have a lot more respect for you guys calling out what I think is very

obviously fraud and it's it's sad to see.

You know, I think I can defend the the tulip and the doctrines of grace against Arminians.

I can defend Sola fide against Catholics.

I can defend Orthodox Christology, I think better than most Christians with references to scripture.

And so I just wanted to thank you guys for edifying me.

But I don't believe any of it and I don't mean that in any kind of insulting way.

I I just don't but I am fascinated by it.

And I think you guys are ardent defenders of your faith and I have a tremendous amount of respect for you all.

I do I do have an endless list of questions For you guys if you

would be open to it.

That I would like to discuss.

We can we can definitely take some.

I don't know if we can reach the whole bottom of the endless list.

Yeah, I'll be glad to come.

I'll be glad to come back.

Yeah, well one, you know thinking about the Trinity I know

I'm kind of curious about and like I said, I I've been really interested in Christology and I think I have a pretty solid

understanding of What the Trinity actually represents the orthodox sense not some kind of

modalistic heresy but You the use of this father -son

language, you know, I think it's Ephesians 6

Exhorts sons to submit and respect their fathers and I've never

heard a good explanation as to why God would choose to use the father -son language in

expressing the Godhead.

When it's clear elsewhere throughout scripture that a son is supposed to be submissive to the father.

So if these are three co -equal persons in the Godhead, why would God use

father and son to express himself?

Yeah, who wants to lead after doesn't matter.

I don't want to.

Y 'all go ahead.

I'll pick up.

Okay.

So when When I see the father and son language We see

the son typically referred in his Incarnation right so

we see Jesus referred to as the son a lot in the incarnation and so there's kind of this

What we would call almost anthropomorphic Terminology right of

Identifying The second person of the Trinity Christ as the son when he was here.

So when he was here you actually see He submit to the father in the way a son

would submit.

To a father right he is kind of our.

He's our example our chief our prime example.

So how Christ submits to the father in his incarnation is how sons should submit to their father?

And we see this in different places as well and within different roles as well like husbands and wives.

We see we see that authority taking place.

But while Christ was here while he was Taking that position

of a of a son to a father that does not mean that he is not equal

to the father in power and Authority, but what we see in the

son when he was incarnate is we see him veiling right this.

We don't see him laying aside deity.

We see him veiling some of his attributes so we would say his omnipresence right now we

Jesus sitting on the throne as 100 God we would say he is omnipresent.

He is everywhere now just like the Holy Spirit is everywhere just like God the Father is everywhere.

But while he was incarnate he was not everywhere.

He limited himself veiling some of those attributes to the time and place in

which he lived so.

So but does that mean he is not equal with God?

No because we see him use his power.

While he was here we see him prophesy we see him he can see into the hearts and to the minds of people.

But he also limits he chooses to limit himself in certain things that he does.

Submitting to what the father would say now in his submission.

Does this mean that he didn't know?

What was going to take place and he was just relying on the father?

No, actually this was something that was agreed upon in eternity past.

So Christ submitting to the father is Christ actually doing what he has

already said.

He was going to do in eternity past because the the Godhead the council

Agreed that the son would go and be the propitiatory sacrifice that he would

come.

So when we see Christ Fulfilling the will of the father Christ is also

fulfilling the will of the triune Triunity of God because God can't be

split.

He can't be separated in his will.

He can't be against himself.

But we see that submission as an example to us because if Christ did not submit here to

that will Which in which is really his will at the same time.

Then we cannot submit to the will of God and we must submit to the will of God.

Because Christ did as well Christ couldn't say.

He couldn't say God father it is your will for me to go to the cross, but it's my will to do

something different.

Right.

He couldn't be against himself as God as 100 % God and 100 % man.

So if you're what Christ says the father is greater than I I want to say that's John 14 or

10.

Somewhere around there says the father is greater than I.

He's speaking to a kind of voluntary.

Subordination to the father.

Yeah, that's what I would see.

Because he because he if he if he is co -equal.

If he is co -eternal and he is co has co -authority.

With the father then there's not this hierarchy, right?

There's not this Eternal subordination, right?

We would say that eternal subordination is a heresy.

But we would say while he was incarnate.

Right, he is submitting to the will of God and so in that sense the will

or God the father would be higher as Christ is human

in his human sense not in his God sense, but in his human nature.

So kind of temporal subordination.

Yeah, yeah.

Temporal and in the the key to this in fact drew.

One of the reasons I wanted you to take a lead on it's because I was just looking up a video.

I don't I texted you a link to a video that I did.

What was this about a month ago?

Okay on this issue.

I don't know if you have the ability to like Put the link in the whatever.

I don't know if there's any way to post that or not, but.

I'll email email the link to yourself drew and then open it up on your computer.

And then you can copy and paste it in here.

I mean, it's a long.

It's like an hour and 15 minutes, but it but it if we can get that link to you Evan and you can watch that

video and that will Flesh it out in much greater detail and what we have time to do here.

But Drew's absolutely right the The key to this is the hypostatic union that Jesus was one

person with two distinct natures fully human

fully divine.

The natures were distinct and that's a very important.

It wasn't.

Jesus wasn't the theological equivalent of yellow and blue make green.

He wasn't this kind of hybrid.

That's a whole other heresy called monophysitism.

Right, and this is Maya.

Maya physitism.

I'm sorry, Maya.

This is Maya physitism.

What you're saying mono physitism, right?

So what is my do you know Maya physitism is I think that's another?

Mmm, I'm not sure.

I've never had that.

Am I a yeah, I've been reading about a lot of these.

Okay, interesting.

Yeah, I think Maya physitism is some Historian kind of thing or something.

Okay, okay.

So, um, yeah one person with two distinct natures and while in his incarnation on earth his

human nature Submitted to the will of the father and his human nature didn't want

to die.

That's why I prayed father.

Let this cup pass from me, but not my will but thine be done.

So in his humanity He didn't want to die.

But nonetheless his deity and there's times when you read through the Gospels you see Jesus kind of for lack of

a better way to describe it acting more or Speaking and acting more from his human nature and other times

out of his divine nature.

So they were two distinct natures.

So with some 22 that Jesus quotes on the cross I've heard that explained has

as he's invoking the entire psalm when he when he says, uh, I'm forgetting the words now.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

And so that's his human nature expressing basically what a man would express on the cross.

That's right.

Yep, and and then later in that psalm in verse 19 and then again in verse 24

Jesus said Or excuse me the psalm psalmist David says but be not far

from me Oh Lord for he has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted

neither has he hid his face from him, but when he cried unto him he heard and

so David had gotten to a point in his life where he felt

like He had been abandoned by God, but in reality he had not in reality.

God had not abandoned him.

He said it right there.

Neither has he referring to God neither has he hid his face from him for me.

So Jesus a lot of people mistakenly believe that Jesus while he was on the cross

Was completely and totally separated from the father and that's just that's not accurate.

That's not a right understanding of Psalm 22.

Another one I had for you guys is and this is kind of a general thing I I have a tremendous amount of respect for

Martin Luther, even though he became a virulent anti -semite later in his life, but What the Reformation

stood for I kind of stand in awe and I think it's foundational to Western society and the American

founding and every kind of notion that we have of individual conscience.

But the doctrine of sola scriptura was always a little unusual to me

in the sense that illiteracy was the norm for the vast majority of history probably

up until a Century or so ago and still in many parts of the world.

And so it always struck me as strange that one would say the scriptures are the sole infallible

rule of faith.

Which is what I think you guys say when the vast majority of people throughout the vast majority of Christian history have been

illiterate and unable to read the scriptures, yeah, so.

The Reformation kind of the battle cry for the Reformation was ad fontis to the source

right and when Luther Nailed his 95 theses to the to

the door in Wittenberg he was calling for a debate with with the Pope and with

the the councils of of the Catholic Church and So you're correct that

the the illiteracy rate was very high.

But that's also why there was a push by William Tyndale before him John Wycliffe

to be able to get the Bible into Translated out of the Latin and into the

language of the common people so that they could actually have a Bible to read and they'd be taught to read

because at that time It all rested on the leaders of the

church right the Pope's the bishops the Cardinals and They were what they

were teaching and telling people was not right which is you know why we had the Reformation and so the push

was for the The church leaders to go back to the source to go

back to Scripture to say no.

You're adding all of these things to the people as a burden.

You're basically just the Pharisees.

You're adding all of these works that they have to do in order to gain merit to go to heaven.

That's not what Scripture says we must return to what Scripture says So that so that we can

rightly teach the people how to come to know know Christ.

Which is through justification by faith alone.

And then there was that push to get the Bible into the hands of the people and that was fought against

By so many people.

I mean William Tyndale lost his life because of that Henry VIII had him killed to where

John Rogers who was the first Marian martyr he and somebody else I Forgot

his name, but they actually finished Tyndale's translation and had it published under the name the Matthews

Bible and ironically It was published.

It was affirmed by Henry VIII, which is really funny.

So Tyndale's work ended up getting published by the person who sentenced him to death.

Anyway, Myles Coverdale Myles Coverdale.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah, I know there's the Bishops Bible the great Bible the Coverdale Bible.

But Wycliffe is supposed to have translated the the first Bible into English and that was in the 14th century.

Yeah, so he translated from the Latin into the English and I I don't think he

finished it.

If my memory serves, correct, I don't and they'll yeah.

Wycliffe.

No also to Evan you got to think about this to the one of the things that that from a practical standpoint that The

Lord or ordained during the Reformation was the invention of the printing press as well.

Yeah, and so when you have that Combined with what back drew to your point at font is

back to the source.

You know simple referenda once reformed always reforming you know the the printing the

translating of scripture from the original languages into English and then and then Coming in with the

Reformation with the invention of the printing press all of that combined Contribute to a massive hike and a

massive jump in literacy rates.

So.

But Chris that interests me because so the printing press comes about in like the mid 15th century with Gutenberg.

Obviously Jan hus comes almost exactly a century before right there.

And I think a lot of the reason that hus didn't set off a Reformation like Luther did was because of the absence of a

Printing press.

He did set off a regional Reformation in Bohemia, right, but but so

that's kind of interesting me.

So I've been looking into a lot of the Proto Reformation movements like the Waldensians, you know, friends of God, obviously

the Lollards Arnold of Brescia, I mean there are all these Movements

characterized as Proto Reformation that espoused many of the same doctrines that Luther would come to.

And all of them were you know, brutally suppressed by the Catholic Church.

And so are you saying that until the 15th century into the early 16th century that God

was?

Essentially Allowing these movements to be crushed under the boot of the Catholic Church until he thought it

was appropriate to allow the printing press to be developed.

Well, I'll answer that first and then I'll curse.

I'll let you I'll let you jump in.

So, of course while I believe in in the sovereignty of God, right?

I do believe that there were things that God allows to take place Until certain moments

and but in those moments We do see people who like Wickliffe right the morning star of the

Reformation.

We are able under persecution to see Who

the faithful are so that we can model them?

Right, and we see that all through the Reformation as well that took place in in England under Mary

In Scotland.

Between John Knox and Mary Queen of Scots all of these things, you know we can there was a

lot of persecution against the church during the Reformation and You know

God allowed that to happen.

Why so that God can allow the Reformation right so that he could he could have the distinction

between Rome and Protestantism right between those who add to the works of God and those who

who say no.

We must only hold to the scriptures.

We see the difference between normative principle of worship Which is is actually

against God is more self worship and then the regulative principle of worship that says no.

We will only worship God with what God has said.

So God does allow things to take place, but he doesn't allow things to take place that are without

purpose so because we can look all throughout church history from from the time

of Pentecost all the way up into today and we can see these great

Times of persecution that took place within the church.

But all of it was for a purpose and it was for the purpose of magnifying God.

It was the purpose to show that these are the faithful and these are the ones that we can model ourselves

After and and long to say I wish I had that faith that they had to that

carried them forth.

I want that same faith Lord.

Will you instill in me a faith like that to carry on to push on to not cower?

When when the government is trying to shut my church down, right?

Let me stand firm like a John MacArthur and say come and take it you want my pulpit come and take it.

You know because we in those we see such tremendous Moves of faith and people who

rely on nothing but the the power of God resting upon his word.

So, let me ask you this prior to the advent of Luther.

And I know I've listened to Gavin Ortlund on this and he may he he likes to call it the accretions that were brought about by the Catholic

Church Adding to the gospel and whatnot over the centuries.

So my question is prior to the Reformation, you know for the majority of Christian history

were most Christians who Subordinated themselves to the Catholic Church.

Would they have been saved.

Would a Christian who lived between 400 and 1500 who just blindly

Believed in the doctrines of the Catholic Church have been saved.

Well, the the Catholic Church is kind of the product of.

In a In a Christian assembly of heresy after heresy after heresy over centuries.

So, you know the way the Roman Catholic Church certainly is today and has at least has been

for you know.

For at least a few hundred years before the Reformation you can't you can't believe in Roman

Catholic doctrine and be saved.

Because Roman Catholicism is antithetical to the gospel so.

But I do believe.

In fact, there's a book I have on my shelf.

It's called long before Luther.

Yeah, long before Luther written by Nathan Busenitz and Details

that the gospel was still there.

It was still being preached.

Yes.

The Catholic Church was trying to stamp it out, but it was still there.

And so there were there were there were believers.

There's always been believers all throughout history, but.

Let's say the average peasant in the Holy Roman Empire in the 14th century after many of these

accretions had come to pass.

Would he have been saved if he believed in the Catholic Church if he paid for indulgences if he believed that.

You know when a coin in the coffer rings a soul from Purgatory Springs, yeah.

Yeah, well, I mean, I think you know God has always had a people and he has always had a people that he has

preserved.

So the The person who may say, you know, they put their coin in the coffer.

You know, they may be doing so out of ignorance because they don't know any better.

But that you know, I would say to that average peasant who doesn't know.

You know that but they believe that.

They must repent of their sins.

They must have faith in Christ.

You know, I the problem is I don't know what they know.

So so I can't speak to like the average person and say You know this person what wouldn't

would not be saved and they would be lost lost to hell.

You know, I don't know what they know.

The only thing I can say is God has always had a people and he has always preserved his people and

He will bring them to repentance he will bring them to faith and he will carry them on through that.

So so so so I mean that that's really all I can say about that unless one of these guys want to jump in.

Well drilling down a little bit on that.

So let's say a 15th century French peasant who believed in the doctrines of the Catholic

Church because he didn't know any better.

In contrast with a Frenchman today who lives in the post -reformation era who understands

the Heresies of the Catholic Church who understands the doctrines of the Reformation would that peasant in the

15th century in France?

Be in a better position with God because he didn't have the ability to know to recognize

the heresies of the Catholic Church.

Would he be in the same position as a contemporary?

Well, I would say anyone.