An Apologetic for Cessationism

This is apologetics live to answer your questions your host from striving for eternity ministries.

Howdy. No, I'm not Andrew Rappaport. But I am drew from matter of theology who is basically Andrews co-host now and I fill in when Andrew can't be here. But we're excited that you are here, especially given the topic.

Introducing the Topic of Cessationism

We're gonna be talking about cessationism Which is a topic we we have seen to be covering quite regularly. Here, but let me bring in my co-host. Of course my partner in crime with matter of theology Chris Hough, what's up, bro?

What's up, man? How you doing? Oh, you know same old same old I'm living the dream as always, but here's the thing, you know, I started a new job, right? It's true you did and that was something that I'd been trying to do for a while.

I've been trying to get out of FedEx and get into a new job and I've gotten into a new job. And so I'm now working in sales so That's something I never thought I would actually be in but I'm in sales and I'm working for a company that makes fragrance oils I.

Mean. I'm happy for you about the job. I'm happy that you're no longer in FedEx.

But you know you do what you got to do bro, but no, let me tell you about this. Let me tell you about this. Okay, so I did not realize that the market for fragrance oils. Well, it's huge. Oh, yeah, it's huge and I'm talking all over the world.

Yep I mean, I've got a prospect list right my leads and it is Just in in my territory. It's just almost a thousand different companies right little companies of people who are making candles making waxes and Chris broke his microphone apparently.

It just came right off. That is keep going. That's weird. But you know, so so I'm into doing that now, which is good you know, it's easier on my body and You know, especially lunchtime gives me a lot of time to study read scripture and a lot of people there are Professing Christians now, I don't know him well enough to say possessing Christians, but they are professing Christians and Sometimes we have some good talk.

Sometimes there's even At moments there might be some prayer time in there. Nice one on one. So so that's good. That's a fix the mic all as well. Okay, good job. Well, what's going on with you, man?

Oh, man, as you would say live in the dream. Work is going well, which is which is awesome. Family's doing well. Gosh, what else. I'm reading a lot right now. I put my current book list on IG stories and and it was a reminder of how much I'm reading.

But but yeah, I'm in doing doing well plugging along sweet sweet.

Fragrance Oils, Book Lists, and Show Announcements

You know, I want to bring up a comment here. Melissa says Congratulations, Drew you get a new job and you get to smell good. And this is so true, right? We have a lab where we develop all these scents these fragrances and but but we have like seven buildings on this one road and The entire road smells so good.

I Mean, I mean it smells like Belgian waffles like it's amazing. It's so good so if you are Starting a candle company or whatever and you need some fragrance oils to add Let me know hit your boy up look up aromatic fragrances international, you know, I'd be glad to set you up, but We have some announcements do it.

Andrew sent me these announcements. I think they're really good announcements. One of them is pretty big. So let me start with the second one that he sent me. Next week's episode will be the episode with Andrews friend Anthony on gay Christianity.

It will be Anthony trying to now not Anthony Silvestro, right? No, but but Andrews friend Anthony He will be trying to defend the notion of gay Christianity. So that's next week's episode. But this is one I think is pretty big.

Okay Michael Brown and Andrew are in the discussion phase of Setting up a debate on are the miraculous gifts for today? Now, I think that's that's pretty amazing. That's that's crazy. That is because There was when when Tom Pennington's book came out Michael Brown did an episode on it.

Yep, and you have it right there a biblical case for cessationism. Which we would say is a a more expansive work on his sermon from the strange fire conference. Yes, and if you haven't listened to that go to the grace to you app Look up truth matters strange fire conference, correct?

All the all the sermons messages are in there. Let me take off that comment.

You can also just go to gty .org and just search strange fire Tom Pennington. Gty .org also has a cool feature that if there's a quote that you've ever heard by John or Bodhi or Lawson or anybody that's ever preached and they have the sermons on gty.

All you do is type in. I think Steve said give us some men who know the truth. Like and it will that the way the search feature works is you it'll take you right to the sermon that that gets from. Yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome. So so dr. Brown did this episode? Podcast trying to Trying to disprove Tom Pennington's book and I have a baby running towards me right now. I hear that. Okay, he's not running towards me.

He's running towards his mommy. But here's one of the things that I found was really fascinating in this this episode of Michael Brown Chris. He the point was basically to disprove Tom's book. Yeah, but He didn't disprove Thomas.

No what he did was he basically took the the Argumentative claims and he addressed the argumentative claims. He didn't address the support that Tom Pennington provides for his claims, right? So so a proper way to argue if we're laying out a biblical case and and we're bringing out an argument We're going to state our claim first.

Yeah, then what follows is the defense or the proof or the support of our claim. Now Michael Brown didn't didn't address any of his support. He just addressed the claim. So with that did Michael Brown Refute Tom Pennington.

No. He just he just took the claim and then threw in His what his view of what the claim should be or or the charismatic? Refutation of that claim without addressing the support. Yeah, and this this goes back to something we kind of talked about last week.

Was that just last week? We're talking about debating and yeah. Yeah. It's been a long week is Whenever you're engaging with something like this engage The work that's been done engage the scriptures engage the argument and that's one of the reasons that when you and I were talking about What to do tonight?

I wanted to address this is because We need to have a solid apologetic Or cessationism right and and the biblical case for it because right now as of you know, today is October 5th 2023 Coming off of the heels off of the g3 national conference where they announced that next year 2024 this same time October 3rd through the 5th of 2024 at Grace Community Church, the cessationist conference Lord willing will be taking place right and so when that was announced the The I'll just call it what it is the immature continuationist ran amok, right?

And Complaining about everything from the price of the conference to Calling, you know, and we're gonna get into this a little bit later. But but saying that you know a friend of mine recently said that cessationist an atheist have more in common that they want than they want to admit Said by a disqualified pastor anyway, um, you know, but but but the issue is brothers and sisters We need to engage with the arguments like don't because this is something we see often especially on social media but it also can be something that happens when you're face to face with someone is don't fall for The ad hominem don't fall for the misdirection don't fall for the distraction.

One prime example of that just while we're talking about this This this guy named Shane Eidelman he's the the founder and lead pastor of Westside Christian Church in Southern, California and he He sent out a question on October 3rd on on Twitter or Twix or X what everyone call it I call it Twix cuz I like Twix, but I'm Twix cuz I'm trying to be healthy.

Anyway, um.

And the social media platform formerly known as Twitter.

Yeah, right. He said this he said quote. I'd like to ask a question to the people below. I'm genuinely curious Would you have been embarrassed in the upper room on Pentecost when the spirit fell or was it such a stupid question?

Oh, it's so ridiculous. Or would you have loved to have been there more below any tag? Josh Bice, MacArthur, Phil Johnson, Justin Peters, Virgil Walker, Scott Annual, Tom Pennington, Todd Friel and multiple people responded and I I affirmed The responses by Josh Bice and Justin Peters and I said spot-on and I said not to mention What happened when the spirit fell on the day of Pentecost and both of them by the way.

Both of them said of course, no, I wouldn't be embarrassed. That would be amazing to be there when the church starts or I think Shane at one point asked about the Mount of Transfiguration as well and Justin Peters was like I was mystified by the question.

I wouldn't write it. Why on earth would I be embarrassed? All right, and and then I said not to mention what happened when the spirit fell on the day at Pentecost. Well, I heard that bro. I heard that pop and and then I and it on the Mount of Transfiguration is much much different than what we see coming from the Charismatic movement today.

That was my response. That's all I said and this guy named Ezra the scribe. He said listen to this quote he said because there were dozens of them. But a billion of us you do realize there are literally more people praying in tongues as a routine Part of their prayer lives then there are Calvinists.

Oh, I forgot Calvinists don't believe in a real God who speaks acts thinks hears or answers period so Drew you see me do this very rare. It's very rare brothers and sisters. If you don't know me and drew knows this Andrew knows this about me.

As well, I don't get into debates on social media. It drives me nuts, but every now and then one comes up or two. Another one came up with another continuationist this week as well. Where I'm like, you know what?

No, no, no. No. No, I'm not gonna let that one lie. And and so I responded now I Clearly pointed out I said brother Biblical Calvinists believe in the God of Scripture who does each of those things according to his living active sufficient and authoritative word.

Aside from the ridiculous display of not understanding what biblical Calvinists believe at best and or completely Intentionally misrepresenting what Calvinists believe at worst you proved my point. But first I must say that the number of people is not a defense for something being Normative and ordained by the Lord for use today.

There are billions who worship Buddha millions of Roman Catholics. Does the sheer number prove that what they believe is true now to my original point and then I Proceeded to go in there and and talk about that what we saw in the New Testament as far as tongues.

And I know we're probably gonna get into this. So I won't go through what I went through there. No response. So don't I say all that to say? Be I was respectful. I called him brother and I said if you'd like to engage further on this or any other topics.

Let me know we can set up a zoom call or something. You know, no response whatsoever, so right it's important that we when it come and the reason this is so important and This is at the cruciform conference.

The first cruciform conference that you and I did. I think it was 2020. Yep. I said we were sitting in the hallway in between sessions and it was a Hugh me Andrew Justin and we were talking and After the experiences that you and I have had with continuationists and continuationist churches.

Yep, I Justin and I were talking about it and I looked at Justin and I looked at you and I said I'm of the Opinion just my opinion that this issue is a Primary issue. It's not secondary. It's not tertiary now for Everyone out there listening what I mean by primary is that it's a it's a tier one issue.

Meaning that scripture clearly defines how the Holy Spirit is to work in what we call the church age the age that we are in. So any affront to that and any affront to the sufficiency authority? And the the veracity of scripture is an affront to God himself the issue of cessationism versus Continuationism is an issue that needs to be ironed out.

I am of the opinion. This is just me personally I'm not telling anyone listening that they should or shouldn't stay or leave a church. If if you know, there are differing views. But for me and my family, we will not attend a church where the elders are continuationists if After a detailed and lengthy biblical loving gentle conversation.

We can't go. Okay. No, we're just saying the same thing, but in two different ways. Right. I will not stay and I will not let my family stay in a church where the elders Repeatedly question scripture as is as if it's not enough and or Assigning works to the Holy Spirit that he had he has and wants no part of right right now first.

I have to I have to answer this question from Kofi deep dive discipleship. He says drew is that bluey in the background? Yes, it is. It is bluey in the background. Bluey stays on in the house all the time.

Yeah, all the time and the reason being is because. It's one of the very few shows That are actually very clean. Yeah, that's actually a good show. Now. There are some episodes. I don't particularly like.

Because you know one teaches evolution you can tell through how they're playing it teaches evolution. I don't particularly like that one. Yeah, but it's a great show for parents. It's a great show for kids me and my wife will watch it just the two of us after the kids go to bed.

We're just still watching it and we've seen them over and over and over and over and over again. We love bluey around here. Nice, but to address what you were saying. Yeah, man, Chris. The idea of tier one right and we've talked about this through the years just you and me offline.

Mm-hmm is Some people would say is this a tier one issue a tier two issue. Is this tertiary? Well when we start talking about the gifts and how God the Spirit moves. We're talking about his nature we're talking about the things that he does and so we have to be very very careful as To what we attribute to the Holy Spirit.

Mm-hmm. So we and Justin has made this point numerous times in all the play and all of the documentaries He's been on and and the interviews he's done and the teachings he's given. He he has he has always said you have to be very careful of attributing works to the Holy Spirit that are clearly not of the Holy Spirit and Done through people who are clearly not people that God would choose to work through in that manner, correct?

Absolutely. Yeah, because because what are we saying about God at that point? Right if well uses charlatans and tricksters to do all of these things and saying it's a movement of God.

What are we saying about God and that's that that's the biggest thing about this man is you've got all of I mean you've got when you look at let's just let's just take away the Nonsense that we see today as far as the charismatic chaos and the charismania that goes on the the fringe groups, right?

But but overall the question is are they even fringe? There because the fringe groups would be the people like the sandstorms. Right people like the Matt slicks the people like the John Pipers. Those are the fringe groups, right?

Yep. Yep. Yeah, man. I mean so but when you look at that when you look at the The the the epics in in in Scripture where Where the Lord did gift people with with miraculous gifts when you look at that They were they were believers.

They were truth-tellers. They they they sought after holiness. They did not want to lead people astray. They loved Christ. They loved his word. There's the key. They The whole point was to always establish authority in that that so so that whoever heard and then us Would benefit from the scriptures and going thus says the Lord.

Yeah, that's authoritative. How do we know that because he gave them the ability to do those things to validate? Who they were to the Lord and how they were going to be used throughout church history.

Yeah, yeah now you mentioned the three the three epics or epochs. However, you want to say that Throughout church history from the Old Testament to the New Testament where you have Moses. Right the time of Moses and Joshua.

Yep. You have Elijah and Elisha and then we would move to the New Testament and say Jesus and the Apostles, correct? Now Michael Brown is one that has made the argument that that's not true. Because even when we see prophets who are outside of those times.

That's God moving in a miraculous way the fact that you have prophets. Well, that's not exactly the case. Where do we see the miracles taking place the signs and the wonders taking place? We see them primarily in those three epochs.

Now God has had his messengers the people who go and speak for him. Yes, right and in between each of those times where miracles weren't being performed Scripture was being written correct. Okay now Let's just let's just entertain.

Dr. Brown's argument. Think about this in terms of statistics. Okay. Now, I'm sure all of us who have been through maybe higher level math in in high school or math in College for everyone that went to college.

We've probably taken the statistics course, right? Now in statistics, what are the things that that you're doing? You're looking at clumps of data and the clumps of data give you the accurate range of Of what's taking place, right?

Now Chris in statistics, are there outliers? Always always. So but so outliers are things that are outside of the norm. They lie outside of the data group. Now while outliers happen, do we look at the outlier to try to discredit the data group?

No, no, because because that cluster. In the in the that statistical group gives us our answer. It gives us it gives us the range of what we're looking for. So when we look at all of the miracles that are done.

They're grouped in these three sections because that's where the signs miracles and wonders take place. Sure, there can be there can be outliers, but the outlier is Not to take away from the main statistical grouping right, right and It's It's fascinating to see that Andrew has written He's given a sermon on this at the cessationist conference that took place at Kootenai Community Church Jim Osman's Church.

Which I think was last year. He and he also turned that message into a blog that you can find on striving for eternity. Yep, and in that He lists out the number of miracles that are listed in the entire Bible and When you look at the spread of those miracles in the Old Testament.

You can't help but see the groupings that show up right, and so that's where they get those three epochs the the the Moses and the and the Joshua section the Elijah and Elisha section and the Jesus and the Apostles section.

Correct. Well and.

Another another key thing to point out while there are principles that we can take From the narrative portions of Scripture, right? There are principles that we can take and apply to our lives. That we see in the the narratives the storytelling that takes place through the Bible.

In no way shape or form does the description of those narratives become a Prescriptive command for us to participate in. When you see when you see Moses coming down From from the mountain with the Ten Commandments and and Aaron and the Israelites have fashioned the golden calf What happens, you know a lot of people are killed.

Does that mean that we should identify all the false worshipers around us and as Benny Hinn would say take a Holy Ghost machine gun to him. No, that's a that that is a narrative. It does highlight how serious the Lord takes worship.

It does highlight for us that the Lord will not tolerate.

False worship. Mm-hmm. So yeah. Yeah. Well, there's you're talking about descriptive text versus prescriptive text. Correct. Now, this is a hermeneutical issue. Yes, we don't take descriptive text something that just describes what's going on and treat it as though it's a prescriptive text.

Right. We can't do that. But. There was something else you just said I wanted to touch on but then I forgot it. It it literally just like left left my brain.

But we do see serious of worship. Oh.

That's what it well it relates to that. Okay sort of relates to that. So what we see in the New Testament or or let's not say the New Testament. Let's say today. We see these modern-day quote-unquote.

Prophets, right saying that they speak in the name of the Lord. Now at the same time they would they would tell us they would come against us as cessationists and say we don't believe the Bible. Be as as these gifts being for today now the problem is they don't believe the Bible where the Bible says if you prophesy falsely, you should be stoned and.

Yet and yet what is is the the rate of? Quote-unquote. Prophets who get their prophecies wrong? Yeah, so it's.

Here's something very very important When it comes to prophecy as in the Foretelling of future events not the fourth telling of what has already taken place or the proclamation of the word. When it comes to prophecy and prophets in the scriptures both Old and New Testaments the Bible nowhere rightly divided using correct hermeneutics.

The Bible nowhere supports the structure of a first-tier or second-tier prophet. Right now what charismatics would do is they would say well people like Chris Vallotton For example, right. And you you find all of these prophets who predicted that Trump would be elected president in 2020.

Well that didn't happen.

Still hasn't happened. Oh, I got that one wrong. That's okay. You ever notice how they always prophesy the Republican Nominee for president, but they never prophesy.

But but but but here's here's the the problem overall with this number one you cannot. This is what I can't get my continuationist friends to understand. How can you say that you believe in this is what I challenged Matt Slick with when he when we were talking about this.

And and it was a good conversation ended up being a very good conversation that got heated there for a minute. But you cannot say That you hold to sola and tota scriptura scriptura and not be a biblical cessationist, right?

You can't. Because that means I'm open but cautious. So that means that you are open to to the idea that the canon of Scripture is not closed. Well, there goes there goes there goes sola and tota scriptura right there right there goes it's out the window.

But then you you you open the door for the doctrine of demons to come and you open the door for manipulation and deception. When scripture in Psalm 19 says that the Word of God the law of the Lord it makes wise the simple.

That means it shuts the door to the leaving it wide open to whatever could come in. Shut the door of your mind. How do you do that with the Word of God? So so that there are this whole thing that you can you can be a Propheting and get prophecy wrong and it's okay.

You're still you're not a false prophet. You just got that one wrong. Absolutely, not. Do you understand the gravitas?

What you just did you're displaying. You have no fear of the Lord. No.

God said the Lord the Lord appeared to me in a vision and he said that Donald Trump was gonna be elected. No, I know. This is just one example. I Think of bro. We did an episode of matter of theology on on the whole wake up all of thing.

Right. Did you look at number? It's my mind is getting ahead of my mouth. It's There are eternal damning consequences To being open To prophecy and saying thus says the Lord when we have the completed word the more sure words Peter said.

Yep, you have eternal consequences. That's enough. But if it wasn't There the temporal consequences of the heartbreak in the turmoil and the struggle. Now I remember when Bethel and Bill Johnson and that whole wake-up all of thing That was the thing that hit me here in the heart and the chest the most.

Was you need to let you need to be pointing these parents to scripture, right? And let the let the let the Holy Spirit through the through the The Word of God the living the active the authoritative sword Comfort them and you're giving people these false hope and these false assurances and it's like It is just one of the coolest things in the world to operate that way instead of saying let's go to the scriptures and look at what the scriptures say about suffering and the sovereignty of God and Etc.

So on and so forth. So, you know not to mention That there are rules first Corinthians for Most charismatic love to write first Corinthians 14 first Corinthians 12 through 14, right? We are we are Continuationist.

Well, okay. Well then okay if you're charismatic and continuationist, then what do you do with those rules in first Corinthians 14? When it talks about that number one that only two or three people at most were to prophesy that number two that Everybody in the congregation were to evaluate the prophecy against what?

Previous biblical revelation. What do you what do you do with that. And then number three is those with the gift of prophecy? I'm quoting Tom Pennington right here those with the gift of prophecy were to speak one at a time.

Yep, and continue continue with those rules if you spoke in tongues. Two or three at the most are to speak in a tongue in turn. But then you must write. It's not a suggestion. You must have an interpreter, right?

And not only that. Women were not allowed to speak in tongues either because of the command in first Corinthians 14 to remain Silent. And what I can tell you I can tell you from experience. Okay in many Pentecostal ish Churches today Pentecostal and Pentecostal ish churches today.

There are numerous women who sit in the pews who will just blurt out in what they call tongues. Right, right.

Tongues, Prophecy, and the Rules of 1 Corinthians 14

Well, and let's I mean Let's talk about tongues for a minute man. Okay, you know the whole thing with with tongues in Scripture. Is the the Greek word is is Glossa. Well there go ahead so.

This is your wheelhouse, bro. Well, there's so the word for tongue. Yes is Glossa. But there's also a term that's that's Interchangeable with that and it's it's also used for language, which is the word dialectus where we get my term dialect.

And and we see that term show up in Acts chapter 2. So when when we see tongues first appearing in the New Testament in Acts at the day of Pentecost they are speaking in known dialects. Correct and this is this is not some kind of gibberish.

This is a known language. Okay. Sorry good, it's it's not a language of angels. Okay, they're not speaking a prayer language. There's what there is honestly no purpose for a prayer language.

No, no need for it. Nope. No, they are not one. Not when the Son of God the second member of the triune Godhead and the Holy Spirit the third member of the triune Godhead are constantly inconsistently Interceding for me to the Father on my behalf right now nowhere in Scripture nowhere in Scripture.

Don't let anybody tell you other one. We can go through them nowhere in Scripture. Is there any warrant for some sort of private prayer language where you disengage your mind? It's quite the opposite.

It's always.

Using your mind, that's correct. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, that's correct. No. So so those terms Are used in in Acts chapter 2 they are used they can be used kind of interchangeably but the term Glossa all it means is either to speak or It refers to the organ in your mouth the tongue.

Yeah, that's the only thing it means. It just means simply means to speak. That's what it is. So now We have all of these people in the modern charismatic church That are trying to attribute the gift of tongues as this nonsensical gibberish That is that it's in it's it's not intelligible, right?

No one can understand it. No, no, you never see anyone interpret it what it what it means by what they're saying. So they're breaking the rules, but yet it continues.

Yep. Yep. Well, and it's the same the same rules by the way that you find as far as prophecy. Apply to tongues like there must be interpreters. It must be only only one at a time. It's not it's not multiple and this is all in first Corinthians 14 and then women.

Don't do it. Right? So it's when you examine. When you examine the scriptures and compare it right. Be a Berean. Use some discernment to what we see today. There's no warrant for it. So in in I know we were gonna talk about good old Mark Driscoll.

But he tweeted today. I took a screenshot just in case he decides to block me because. We did interact we did interact. He does it was an interesting interaction. He said this to in a tweet today he said.

Quote. Scripture alone does not contain anything resembling the doctrines of cessation ism. If all Bible commentaries disappeared tomorrow, so would cessation ism period. Close quote. No it. I mean, no, it wouldn't.

We've been going for what 35 minutes and we've already referenced quite a few.

So so it would show that yeah, we can we can see the doctrine of cessation ism in scripture we can see it where Miracles just aren't being done right. Paul doesn't heal trophimus in Miletus. He doesn't he doesn't send a piece of his robe or cloth to Timothy to heal Timothy.

He he leaves them sick. Yeah, now Tim Paul doesn't even tell Timothy pray for your stomach ailments that the Lord might heal you. He says hey, hey drink some wine for your stomach illness. Now. Now, why would that be?

That would be because alcohol is is. Has a medicinal a medicinal use right when you drink alcohol it kills the bacteria. That's in your stomach and they're drinking water. That is that is just dirty water.

It's filled with parasites and bacterias and things. So, of course if you continually drink the water, you're gonna continually be putting bacteria in your body as you're traveling along. But some out some alcohol here some alcohol there will kill that bacteria.

Right in your in your stomach. So we see we see that that there are gifts that do start to fade out now another thing that people don't quite realize or pay attention to. Is I think it's 1st Corinthians chapter 13 Let me turn there.

I should have had it already man. This is my problem dude all the time even when I'm preaching. You think of something you're like, oh wait. No, I have. I have the text that I want to go to but I'm not.

I don't have it already marked out to turn there. I Think it's in verse. Let's start in verse 8. Yeah, let's start in verse 8 is verse 8 that I'm looking at. Paul says love never fails. But if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with they will be done away.

If there are tongues, they will cease if there is knowledge. It will be done away now. The interesting thing where it says prophecy will be done away. The phrase done away in The Greek is in the passive voice.

Now if you don't believe me go get Logos Bible software. Do a word study right there. It will tell you that it is in the passive voice. Okay. Now, what does it mean that it's in the passive voice? It means.

Well, no, I'm gonna we're sponsored by log on. I know I'm kidding. So What does it mean that it's in the passive voice? It means that something outside of it will come against it to cause It to stop right something from the outside will come against that causing it to stop.

Now where it says tongues they will cease that word cease is in the middle voice. Okay. Now let's explain the middle voice. We have the active voice. I hit the ball. We have the passive voice the ball hit me and then we have the middle voice.

I hit myself. So with this word cease in the middle voice. It's saying that tongues will cease on their own and you can actually do a word study. Through the New Testament with this word being in the middle voice and every time it shows up he finished he stopped.

Right, he stopped himself. Right. That's how it's used. So so it means it will cease on its own. Mm-hmm. Yep, any thoughts?

The Cessationist Case from Scripture and the Nature of Miracles

Lot of thoughts man. A lot of thoughts. I like it that you went there and It's very very true. There is a one-verse apologetic on The fact that that these things have ceased now I want to be clear too because one of the attacks and one of the misrepresentations all the time that we get as Cessationist is you guys don't believe in miracles, right?

You guys don't believe that the Holy Spirit moves today. You don't want to get to that. Yeah. Yeah, so you guys I mean We can you know you guys you guys don't believe it that that that the Lord is still moving.

No, that's not true at all, that's not true at all every time. Every time the Lord saves a wretched sinner like me. That's a miracle every single time Regeneration faith is granted to someone who was once an enemy of the Lord that the efficacious Application of the finished and ongoing work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross for the forgiveness of sins every time that's applied.

That's a miracle from a temporal standpoint every time one of us gets sick and by the miraculous creation of the human body we are healed because of the Antibodies in our system or the medicine that we take if we go see a doctor or the rest that we get when we sleep.

At night, that's a miracle and if that wasn't enough do we absolutely believe that the Lord can? Miraculously, that means that means something that's not normative something that can't be proven. Miraculously heals those who are sick or though.

I mean in a providential and or miraculous way. Absolutely. We do no one's saying that the the difference is cessationist believe that the normative Gifts given to those individuals. For those miraculous gifts for the establishing of apostolic authority.

They do not exist today. Period yeah, and and you know people use first Corinthians 13 all the time you ask for thoughts. Well, people use first Corinthians 13 one as a defense for private prayer language and the tongues of angels, right?

Paul saying if I speak with the tongues of men and of angels and do not but do not have love I have become a noisy gong and a clanging cymbal. That's a rebuke. That's an admonishment to the Corinthian Church because they were they were over emphasizing these spiritual gifts.