The Texas Tornado Tour Reviewed, and Some Calls

Alpha & Omega Ministries

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01:04

And greetings welcome to the dividing line it is it's Tuesday, it's Tuesday afternoon and we are back here in Phoenix, Arizona where there are no tornado sirens

01:19

I don't think we even have installed here. Actually. I forgot to turn that thing on over there. That's a that's a bummer and maybe the one up above to maybe on Continuous cycle or whatever it is getting toward the getting toward the summer here in Phoenix, but real quick well real quick a report on the trip to Dallas and all the things that happened there including yes,

01:45

I will since my former Opponents is making so many comments about the debate from Thursday evening.

01:55

I'll make a few I've always wondered a little bit about folks who you know have a whole lot to say about debates immediately thereafter in the sense of Commentary or you might say damage control, but Anyway, we'll talk a little about that lots of things happen this trip

02:20

Some of you know that I started out with a bang Actually, I got there on Friday. I want to thank

02:26

Emilio and Trish Ramos for putting up with me for nearly 10 days I'm hoping that their dog is returning to some semblance of normalcy now who obviously did not like having me around I think it was she was starting to take a little warming to me toward the end, but it took a lot of a lot of treats and and things like that, but Obviously Emilio did a lot of driving

02:52

I mean, I don't know how me and with that size of a truck He's got you know, I asked him what you need a 5 .7

02:58

liter engine for and he said well I I said, what do you haul around? He says my dog Okay, that's a that's a

03:04

Texan thing and after the debate though when we saw the

03:11

Massive line of thunderstorms that we were gonna have to be driving through to get back I was sort of glad it was a truck that size.

03:17

I you know, if it had been a little Smart car or something. I wouldn't have felt very good you know with the lightning and the thunder and the sheets of rain, but Anyway, as soon as I got there on Friday Friday evening.

03:31

I'm sitting there at Emilio's table. There's two cameras set up and some of the elders from his church and are sitting there and I don't know how long we went but probably an hour and a half two hours of Theological roundtable type stuff and I haven't seen any links from Red Grace media, but I'm sure it'll be edited and put up eventually and we talked about all sorts of things and Then Saturday morning.

03:57

I wanted to go for a run and I did and I got 430 meters in and Discovered that in in Texas.

04:07

You've got the soil is very much made out of clay and For some reason that means you don't do much with asphalt and You make your roads out of concrete

04:21

Which means you have these, you know seams between the concrete slabs and There's still a there's still a rip in the front of my left shoe that caught that seam

04:34

I Hadn't fallen. I started running in February of 14 1100 kilometers

04:40

I'd run It was so fast. I didn't even have time to think about rolling doing anything

04:45

You know, you're supposed to roll us when you when you get thrown that fast, it's just Wow and So I thankfully it was better than being, you know 4k in and 4k away from the house or something

05:00

So I just go walking back and Emilio and Trish are night owls.

05:05

Okay. I won't even tell you all the stories about stuff happening at night Sacrifices but you know

05:12

Burnt sacrifices on the altar and things like that, but our art we only saw each other for a small portion of the day because I get up early and they go to bed real

05:24

Late and so it you know, it worked out But you know, so I get back and I try clean myself up as best

05:31

I can You know, I find a washcloth and soap and alcohol and that kind of stuff But it's still like an hour and a half later before it gets up So like knocking at the door

05:43

Do you have any band -aids? They didn't have many we had to we had to stop at CVS on the way to the conference that day and once I got to the conference

05:53

I had to go in the restroom and sort of almost disrobe and putting bandages all over stuff and Amelia had to buy me some oxyclean to Because it bled through to my shirt, you know brand new shirt.

06:05

I had enough it was it came out That was messed up and long behold, you know,

06:11

I didn't let it didn't let it slow me down Still in Dallas. I rode on the bike 160 miles ran 16 17 kilometers road 16 kilometers rowing, you know

06:23

So I you know, I got some good workouts in long behold I get on the plane on the way back yesterday and I sit down in the seat and I put my elbows down you know,

06:34

I ripped up my elbow here and I just about jumped out of the plane and I said

06:41

I've felt that before once about 25 years ago when I broke my arm over here, and so I went to the world's greatest chiropractor and She tested it and I haven't bothered with x -rays, which would be the you know, hundred percent

06:55

But she used this thing that you know, you it uses vibration if you hit anything, it's broken.

07:01

Oh, yeah I about screamed so I probably broke my elbow. It's hairline fracture irrelevant.

07:07

I mean You know, I can do all sorts of things and you know, no problems and blah blah

07:14

But it was good way to start. I mean talk about beating yourself up right off the start and I've often said man

07:20

I wish I had that video. I wish I had a video of me going down if I just monetize that on YouTube Just just from the

07:27

King James only guys and the Mormons and the Muslims and the Roman Catholics You know posting that I probably could have paid my house off just simply from that.

07:38

It would've been great But no, I just laid laid there in the middle of the road And as I laid there stunned the thought crossed my mind am

07:46

I gonna hear somebody in one of these houses go. Are you okay? Nope, nothing happened. I just I just laid there sort of hoping a car didn't come along Before I could shake it off enough to get up and start assessing

08:00

Assessing the damage. Yes. Well, is that an armadillo? Yeah, especially one of those

08:08

Texas sized trucks Let me tell you speaking of Texas sized things everybody's houses down. There are three times bigger than mine and Thunderstorms seems really big there too

08:24

Man I'll tell you that thankfully I rode I had I had rented a bike and I got three days in And then

08:33

I looked at the weather. I said man, I might as well just turn the thing back in and no reason paying for it

08:39

There their lakes are full their rivers are flowing there had been there had been drought going on There ain't no drought going on now and they got more coming this week.

08:47

There's gonna there's gonna be flooding and It's big storms, like I said after debate huge, you know lightning all over the place.

08:55

I mean just crackling everywhere Well Sunday morning I get up and right as I get up I start hearing

09:01

Hear these big old drops and I look outside and it's just starting to rain Everybody in Texas has weather bug on their phone

09:08

I mean, it's just like what first thing they go to but it defaults to and so I look at my phone and there is a big line of Really nasty storms just about to plow into Frisco and a few minutes later.

09:23

I start hearing I have not heard tornado sirens. I don't know if I've ever heard tornado sirens

09:30

I saw a tornado when I was four or five years old in Minneapolis. I remember it. I don't know if my dad remembers but We were in the cellar they had sellers there

09:39

They don't have sellers in Texas for some reason and I have sellers here either But but we are an old farmhouse 105 year old farmhouse

09:46

It was one of those things we went down, you know, how the the door was at an angle, you know, like those, you know so and I remember looking out from that cellar and seeing the funnel cloud so I've seen them and I don't know if we had sirens back then or not, but Or if they'd even been invented by that point but Here they go off and so we get a tornado warning in Frisco nothing nothing came of that and Lots and lots of rain and then

10:16

Lee Dodd picks me up drives me out to Denton and Yeah that didn't back

10:21

If you know this past weekend and so I preached at the church spoke on God's freedom and and the issue of evil and then we went to One of the elders house max house for lunch and and he was going to take me down to countryside

10:37

Where I was we speaking at countryside Bible Church Tom Pennington And we had a great time there

10:43

I met Janet Mefford for the first time and and Had a good time there Sunday evening though.

10:49

There were lots of more storms then too, but we're fixing to have lunch and they turn on the weather channel and there is

11:01

Confirmation this time from National Weather Service of a tornado on the ground and They they drew the line that it was be following.

11:09

It's It's like put the crosshairs on the house and there it is like Yay, and so they said it was a rain -wrapped one.

11:19

So you can't see it It's wrapped in rain. And so when they described it, they said what would happen is all of a sudden there just be a torrential downpour and then the winds would take it all sideways and that's when you know, you're in the middle of it and So we're sort of watching just you know, we're still making lunch and all but you hear the sirens going off again and I'm watching out the front door and all of a sudden

11:48

The world disappears. I mean just buckets of rain and it's all going sideways so it's like I Think it's time.

11:57

So you've got your safe place, which is basically the most inner portion of your house and in this case it was a hallway and we got all the kids in there and you get all these blankets and pillows and and you know, we turned off the lights and We survived nothing happened

12:17

It managed to go past us but man it must have been close because it was exactly what they described so I was really glad when

12:23

I got up yesterday morning and could actually see the sky and I figured might get out of here in one piece

12:31

But Wow Maytime Storms in Texas and of course what happened is they just go straight up into Oklahoma and become become tornadoes

12:41

I mean is they call it tornado alley for a reason and It's so we can refer to this as the

12:47

Texas tornado tour that it would that would fit Yeah, that would fit it was it was something else.

12:53

So the first weekend I spoke at Emilio's Church Heritage Grace Church on Homosexuality with Emilio and Tom Pennington did a a great

13:08

Presentation on Romans 1 I had been to countryside. I think I think you know, we were talking about Sunday night.

13:15

I I think 2009 was last time I've been there. I've been there at least twice maybe three times.

13:22

I know I was there with Well, it's been a while anyways and So we had a good turnout and got to meet a lot of folks

13:31

That was Saturday. I spoke there Sunday they meet on Sunday afternoons, which really threw my clock off to be preaching at like 2 o 'clock in the afternoon or something and Then Monday I Spoke at a church sort of Way out in the country sort of south of Fort Worth and Once I realized it was

13:54

Fort Worth. I emailed Jeff Neal the Jeff Neal's co -author of the same -sex controversy and I had not seen

14:01

Jeff since I think last time I saw Jeff was when he preached my mom's funeral in January of 2010 and so it's been a long time and So I I text

14:13

I emailed him and lo and behold he was able to come to the meeting that evening and I was speaking At homosexuality, so it was really neat to speak at homosexuality and have my co -author there

14:22

And I kept making references and we got to talk afterwards. It was it was really good to see Jeff after all these years and to realize that other people are getting old just like me

14:33

So that was that was great. And then on Wednesday evening

14:41

I met with the fellowship group at Emilio's Church, and we just walked through Romans 9 We just open up the text and spend about an hour and a half hour and 45 minutes

14:49

Just walking through Romans 9 because I figured that would be useful for them if they're coming to the debate I'll talk about the debate at the end.

14:55

That was on Thursday I got to see all sorts of folks also on Thursday as some of you saw on Facebook I had taken a tour of ICR while I was there on Wednesday and Through a connection there at ICR lo and behold the next day the

15:14

Duggars were taking the same tour that I had taken the day before and Mention was made of the fact that I had been there and lo and behold

15:24

Ben of Ben and Jessa Was really excited wanted to meet me knew knew about my work had seen debates so on so forth

15:33

So on Thursday, we arranged a lunch. I normally don't do that on a debate on a debate day, but we did and We posted a picture of the of the lunch there and then

15:43

Ben and I it's amazing we shot this little video on the Trinity and that was

15:48

Jessa on her iPhone just that was just all it was was went out on the You know outside we either had to fight with the traffic

15:58

Sounds or with the music and they were in the hotel one of the two so we decided to go with traffic being easier to handle than the music and So we did that on Thursday Now starting

16:12

Friday. I was with Providence Chapel out toward again the Denton area

16:17

Friday night on text reliability Saturday morning had a sort of a men's fellowship they had some kind of a

16:27

They had a special word for the cinnamon bun type thing. They had that was

16:32

Just obviously soaked in butter and wonderfully delicious, but probably 500 calories a bite or something.

16:40

I don't know It was good And again Man, we were we were in the third floor of this church.

16:47

We were borrowing. So we were right underneath the roof and the storms were just Just amazing

16:55

I haven't seen that much rain ever probably and Then Friday night.

17:00

I or Saturday night. I spoke on the Trinity We had lots of technical difficulties first night the second night.

17:07

We got most those worked out So it's a little bit easier on the second night and then like I said Sunday spoke on the issue of God and evil and then in the evening off to Tom Pennington's and They pre they they audition not not what's the term revealed audition play for the first time what's the term

17:28

I'm thinking of Debut debuted they debuted A new song by Tom and his wife.

17:36

It was really good It's on the sovereignty of God and they sang it sang it twice actually and very very nice tune

17:42

I'll have to see if I have to find I forgot to ask him if it's gonna be made available I'm assuming it's being recorded by somebody at some point.

17:49

So it was pretty cool So like I said, Janet Mefford and her family was there and so I made a joke at the beginning

17:57

Oh, I didn't tell you about this. I start I started off my presentation I had to do this because I mean Janet Mefford's sitting four rows behind me

18:04

So I get up to speak and I go I know that no one else is gonna understand this But I have to do this.

18:10

It's like having been told your entire life Not to take the cookie from the cookie jar

18:17

Now's the opportunity Janet. Good afternoon And she was

18:23

I laughed because you know, no one else had a clue what the world was talking about but Had to do it had to do it had to had to say good afternoon to Janet so anyways lots of other folks were there and we had a

18:38

Had a great time. I spoke on Islam and You know, I had to had I had to use my mini presentation.

18:44

They're really the really small one But it still really went well and everybody really seemed to enjoy the

18:55

Of the presentation and and we're challenged by it and again a great church, you know, you know, it really made me feel welcome

19:03

As I walk in the front door and they have a small book store book room type thing and there's a window sort of there's one on this side and this side at the corner right as you walk in and Facing you as you walk in and they've put little you know

19:21

Little shelves I can put books there to you know, get people's interest all four books displayed for mine

19:27

So I was like the God who justifies forgotten Trinity scripture alone Potter's freedom something like that So when you walk in the first four books in the bookstore or books you wrote that's that's that's pretty cool

19:39

That was that was that was very nice. So Even though I did man. I'll tell you Everybody was making me wear

19:46

Britney Spears microphones. Oh, man, I Just hate those things not a one has ever been made this they can fit my ear

19:56

I mean, I my ear is always red by the time I'm done. I'm getting a headache. Oh, I hate those things

20:02

Britney Spears microphones they have taken over taking a they're called countrymen and they great sound there's no question about it

20:09

You know, so when it comes around here and a little thing, you know, oh I hate him just detest him. But oh well you do what you have to do.

20:17

And as I said Got up in the morning and The skies were clear the flight was on time

20:27

It was it was good to get home But something tells me those that I think they said Thursday that that storm system is gonna fire back up again

20:35

I may even be keeping an eye on that because Wow, so Plans in the offing for something for next year with some big names that I won't mention yet.

20:46

I May be doing some severe curtailing of traveling next year, but that's one thing

20:52

I would do I know Jeff definitely wants me to come back To his church, and I really want to be able to do that.

20:59

So So and I did I did see Tom Buck at the debate He had just flown in went straight from DFW to the debate before even going home

21:08

So it was it was good to see him and we want to work something out with him as well. But we'll

21:14

We'll we'll talk about details like that now Like I said,

21:24

I I generally don't right after a debate Especially, you know,

21:32

I mean, I think you only posted the link yesterday and I'm sure you can get the audio for free from somebody

21:39

We're asking money for it and people are people always whine But people always complain, I guess we're just supposed to do everything we do just you know

21:50

I don't know how it's supposed to happen, but We're just trying to get rich I guess but anyway, we've we've posted it and it helps defray some of the costs that we have to ask for a little something for it and That's what we did so you can listen to it and I'm not sure how the video is gonna work out because it ended up being videotaped by two different groups and So hopefully, you know, you could there could be format issues there.

22:18

I don't know I know that Emilio's group red grace media Has really good looking as I said, it looks really really good.

22:28

I'm not sure who was recording for Layton flowers, but we're supposed to exchange videos stuff

22:35

I guess and Eventually that will be made available in in video when

22:43

I wrote up the description for rich to put in the in the bookstore

22:50

He wrote back after a senator. So that's that's great because it starts off by saying this isn't really a very good debate

22:57

But it's interesting nonetheless Marketing 101. Yeah, and my response was truth in advertising truth in advertising

23:08

When The contact had been made with Layton flowers. I think

23:13

I think Emilio made it if I recall correctly His initial desire had been to divide to debate

23:25

Total depravity and One of my criticisms of professor flowers has been that his forte seems to be criticizing rather than providing a positive case in a meaningful meaningfully exegetical case and especially at that point that that was a period of time we were going back and forth on mystery and all the rest of these things and So I had said no,

23:57

I I want this to be a textually based debate where both sides have to provide a positive

24:04

Text based Defensible examinable case from the same text this this will allow people to see the difference between You know people who weave stories and create a theological narrative, but don't really have a basis in the text and those who

24:33

Do have a basis in the text? so we went back and forth and It was finally decided that we would do

24:41

Romans chapter 9 Which if I recall correctly he suggested you could ask

24:47

Emilio Most of this was going back and forth via text message when

24:52

Emilio and Trish and I were having dinner at a hotel in In California Yeah, I was right before the

25:03

TMI thing so that's the most that was happening and one evening we just had dinner and We're sitting there talking about other things.

25:10

There was well go Amelia said, okay. He just said this what about that? And then he'd do the response and we'd wait a few minutes and someone come back.

25:16

It was all done by text message modern world, I guess and So, I don't remember all the details and I wasn't all

25:25

I was doing was saying well how about this or that or the other thing and so my concern

25:34

Obviously, you know, I told a number of people I said I'm sort of in a non -win situation here. I'm expected to win

25:42

I'm expected to outperform someone in their first debate And It's Romans not so I mean, come on The expectations are high as I said as long as he shows up breathe keeps breathing and doesn't drool he wins and But my biggest concern was if the other side

26:07

Refuses to really engage the subject or goes to another subject.

26:12

There's there's not much you can do about especially when you go first It's one thing if they go first and decide to change the topic of the debate at least you have the opportunity of choosing to either adjust or or not but it's a decision you have to make and What happened in the debate fundamentally was

26:34

I started and debated Romans 9 and what

26:40

I chose to do was I just I took my text and And I it's a plexiglass

26:52

Pulpit and I've never really liked plexiglass pulpits very much So I just sort of for that since I didn't

27:00

I had no notes I didn't have anything written out for the debate didn't have any questions written out nothing. I just It's Romans 9

27:08

How many you know been dealing with it for decades So I just stood out front the pulpit and Translated and Commented and worked verse by verse from about Romans 830 all the way down through pretty much the end of chapter 9

27:29

We both had the same amount of time We actually had 22 minutes I thought

27:34

I was gonna be 20 But the moderator pastor the church decided to give us a couple of extra minutes say hi so I said hi in 30 seconds and then took the other minute and a half to add to my time and We both had the same amount of time which

27:48

I found it odd that you know a couple times later on in the debate when I point out that Professor flowers didn't exegete the text

27:57

It was sort of like well, we only have so much time and I'm like, yeah I know we both have the exact same amount of time. I did it you didn't even try

28:05

So I I presented the exegesis of Romans 9 followed the argument through verse by verse point by point which

28:12

I guess some people think is cheating or easy another issue that we might talk about and Then it was an unusual format because I made my presentation then he did cross -examination of me and I Last I had read the emails.

28:28

He didn't want to have free flow cross -examination. He wanted to have a timed question Timed response timed rebuttal type thing he just Did well spent the first two minutes of his rebuttal making a statement

28:42

Or his cross -examination making a statement and then started asking me questions and it was just free flow

28:47

So I don't I don't even know what happened about that. Oh, well, that's fine. I mean, I'll I'll live with it roll with the punches so to speak and then

28:58

It comes time for his Positive exegesis of Romans 9 and and again you can listen to it right now

29:08

You can wait for the video and watch This was not just him being nervous or something all of his presentations were pre -written

29:19

I Saw his notebooks. He had it all printed out in in individual plastic clear plastic sleeves

29:31

So, you know questions statements it was all written out beforehand read word but word -for -word and Basically just started preaching

29:42

I Mean like Southern Baptist preach. I mean the same hand gestures and the standard lilting

29:50

Southern Baptist preaching tone the whole nine yards and I don't know how far into his

29:59

Positive case it was before he ever even got to Romans 9 But I'd say it was at least eight minutes.

30:06

Maybe ten. I don't recall. I I didn't bring my notes in here I may have may have made note of it at some point But I'm just sitting here going

30:14

He's debating total depravity This this whole presentations on total depravity.

30:19

So in essence, he chose to stick with the subject. He first suggested and So now you have two different topics because the thought that the topic of Romans 9 is not total depravity

30:28

It may be relevant, but that's not the topic Romans 9 and so There were two debates

30:37

The official debate topic was not even disputed I Was the only one that substantiated a position so as far as the official debate went that it wasn't even a contest it was

30:48

It was a no contest But then if you want to talk about a debate on total depravity, it would be nice to get an opening statement

30:56

Which I didn't get to do I did I never got to make a positive statement of a biblical

31:01

I mean I only had I could only do that in Very brief summary things and answers to questions and things like that after that's what happens when you have one side that decides to Basically ignore the topic of the debate and redefine things

31:14

I don't know how anyone could could actually believe That what

31:20

Layton flowers was presenting was exegesis it was not exegesis It was

31:27

I'm going to come up with this system, and I'm gonna I'm gonna take this over here, and I'm gonna find the noble cause and And I'm gonna

31:34

I'm gonna weave together. You know this this fabric of theological assertions

31:40

And then I'm gonna eventually take it to Romans 9 and say well now once we understand this then this section actually refers to this part of my theory and this section then can be understood in light of this part of my theory and You know you if you think that's exegesis

32:00

Okay I'm not gonna blame any particular theological institution for having taught you that but that's not exegesis and So You know the evening was still useful if for no other reason

32:17

I had lots of people come up to me afterwards going Wow um that was a stark contrast not only in methodology, but in argumentation and Maybe someday the other side will find someone that will actually deal with Romans 9 in a meaningful fashion

32:37

I'm like well. Yeah, I was sort of I was concerned about that. I was a little afraid that that might happen and and it did and So You know afterwards like I said there were there were lots of there were lots of great conversations

32:53

And I think a lot of people were at least able to see how one side can

33:01

You know it's it shouldn't shock any of us when you think about it One of us can walk through John chapter 6

33:08

And we don't have to keep continuing to jump out and go over there now before we look at this next thing

33:14

We need to understand that there's this overarching narrative see and and because there's an overarching narrative It sounds like it's saying this, but it's really not saying this

33:22

It's it's actually you know in light of you know all the rest of stuff. It's it's actually saying something else and and You know we've we've seen this a number of times in dealing with professor flowers and Unfortunately there are a lot of other folks that that sort of is is how it works for them as well and they don't seem to recognize and understand that one of the most important Reasons why reform theology continues to Make the progress that it does is that there are people that just look at that and they go wow one side can just let

34:00

The scriptures be the scriptures. Oh, it's not that we don't have an overarching narrative we do But we can actually just walk through the text of scripture and substantiate our points directly from there and So You know

34:16

I could spend a lot of time you know I could could have brought my notes in here and gone back over some of the you know he brought a lump of Plato I Should I do need to mention this

34:30

He says he was once Calvinist. I even heard of a lady who was introduced to Calvinism by latent flowers

34:35

She's still a Calvinist and thought he lost the debate by the way But it is

34:44

His misunderstandings of reformed theology are Numerous numerous very numerous

34:53

He kept conflating being dead in sin with judicial hardening

35:00

Says it's a distinction without a difference etc. Etc It was frustrating on that level because so many of the objections were not overly relevant to someone who knows a position so And my understanding is someone sent me a link

35:18

Day for yesterday two days ago something like that right after the debate that I guess he's put a

35:23

Kindle book out called the potter's promise Wow, I wonder where that came from In Fact don't

35:31

I have Yeah, yeah, here's here's another Layton, I'm sorry, but someone beat you to all this stuff.

35:38

Here's Malcolm Lavender's the potter's freedom to love the world a refutation of dr.

35:44

James R. White so everybody and and what what what did Erden canner do? the potter's hatred was that the graphic that he came up with sometime around the liberty debate time period was

35:59

You know with a hand the hammer smashing a pot type thing and you know, so everybody just loves to It's funny though They can't really walk through Romans 9 and talk about the potter and the clay in the context of the verses

36:12

Without having to run off to Jeremiah and run after this run off to that, you know, bring that in No, it can't be meaning that it's all back to Wesley and whatever it means.

36:22

It can't mean that type of a situation but one thing I did want to mention that does

36:29

Really concern me and I and I don't know How many people caught this?

36:38

But in the conclusion that he offered and and He made reference

36:50

To The young fellow who to Austin Fisher who wrote

36:57

You know young wrestlers are no longer reformed he seems to really think that's a great book

37:04

And Then he made reference to something called free will theism

37:12

He's promoting free will theism now if you've Heard some of the other people that use that phrase you might remember the name

37:20

Brian Zahn Who likewise speaks much of free will theism?

37:26

Brian Zahn is the man that Michael Brown debated on penal substitutionary atonement Because of course

37:32

Brian Zahn rejects, you know substitutionary atonement, but just think about that phrase for a moment free will theism

37:43

What do they mean by that well, they don't mean the only sensible way that that phrase could possibly be understood

37:51

Because if you're describing a theistic system Then free will should be describing

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God That God has free will that that God's will is supreme that God's will is ultimate that that God accomplishes his free will

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But what's amazing is Mankind is so in love with his own autonomy and his own power and his own

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Creatureliness that you have a system where God is being described by an asserted grossly unbiblical attribute of the creature

38:39

Because free will theism is theism defined by man's free will

38:46

Now as I've said many times, I believe professor flowers position to be man -centered. He found a rhetorical way to and Again, it'd only be relevant to people who aren't really thinking very deeply.

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Yes. My system is man -centered It's focused upon the man Jesus and what he would have done

39:03

Exact same argumentation is on used in the debate with the Calvinist. Remember we went through that rather thoroughly and Of course, it's a misrepresentation of the genius of the

39:16

Gospels, but it is this this mechanism of Of being able to say that well the

39:24

Jesus of the Bible, you know these Calvinists They're nothing like the Jesus of the Bible they or Zahn doesn't and flowers do not even pretend to attempt to Demonstrate that the

39:37

Jesus the Bible didn't teach these things and didn't believe in the absolute sovereignty of God or all the rest that kind of stuff because it's too easy to demonstrate that he did but anyway

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The reality is that this is a very I mean freewill theism

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I just don't know how someone can can hold that viewpoint in that perspective and Stay there

40:09

Because there's just no solid ground left in theology to keep you from slipping right off into Well where Austin Fisher is headed and Brian Zahn is headed and we're all the emergent movements and everything else once you start defining your

40:27

God in light of human attributes And I find it extremely troubling and very dangerous and yet that's what professor flowers was promoting in the closing statement was he used the phrase free will theism and And I'm not sure how many people even understood that but I think if they start looking around see who else is using that terminology

40:53

They may go Mmm, that's um, that's interesting Who knows who knows but if you want your

41:02

God to be defined by his creatures, there's a system for you There is a system for you of course,

41:08

I think creatures need to be defined by their God, but that's just one of those differences that we

41:14

We have between us If you were there, I should have mentioned this beforehand. Let's go ahead and Open up the phones.

41:21

We've only got 20 minutes of the program, but eight seven seven seven five three three three four one eight seven seven seven five three

41:28

Three three four one just in case there was someone who wanted to make a comment about something along those lines

41:34

I did have a oh, I suppose I should mention one other thing the end of the debate professor flowers

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Did something unusual and I objected to it He said, you know, we really support what you do and and going off into mosques and things like that That that's great

41:58

As long as you'll promise not to use it to promote Calvinism I'd like to suggest that we take up an offering to support your ministry

42:09

But I didn't tell you about that didn't and I'm like That would be inappropriate

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It would be completely inappropriate To take up an offering for one side of debate Along with strictures saying what you can use it for The the reality is that I Am reformed

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In everything that I do when I Stand in a mosque.

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I answer questions about soteriology From a biblical perspective, which means

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I'm going to present Penal substitutionary atonement. I'm going to present the sovereignty of God in salvation.

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I'm going to present The particular atoning work of Jesus Christ. I'm not going to present the atonement is something that makes men savable, but that actually saves so I Can't accept any type of stricture

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It's going to say well, you can only use this funds these funds to promote a message other than what you believe and that immediately is just like What do you think it?

43:22

I mean you may have the great you may have the greatest intentions the world But what are you thinking?

43:29

I? mean, that's like Well, anyway, you know, it'd be like if he was debating a

43:34

Jehovah's Witness and the Jehovah's Witness said, you know I I love what you do it on campuses So let's take up a love offering and and as long as you don't promote the

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Trinity With this money, then I'd be great How's that work?

43:49

I don't even I didn't begin to understand how that works. Um so I I said no, no,

43:55

I I object to that and and I would there's just that that's totally inappropriate in the context of a

44:04

Of a Of a debate so There are some of my thoughts on What happened on the

44:12

Thursday evening? like I said, there were you know, Jeff and his wife and his son came and and There there are all sorts of folks that came to the the debate and I posted a picture

44:25

Ben and Jessa were there till 11 o 'clock at night when we when we left and That's what

44:30

I said. You need to get mama home so she can get some sleep I was a little concerned about them

44:37

I Was a little concerned about them actually right driving in the rain

44:45

Because I didn't know if they were in a nice big old honkin Texas truck like I was But anyways, it was good it was good to To talk to them.

44:59

All right, let's let's take some of our phone call. Where'd my where'd my thing go?

45:05

Well, don't do this to me. I'll just have to use this over here. All right, let's talk Let's talk today before it gets blown away by a tornado

45:13

Dave in Denton Texas, how's the is the lake still rising?

45:19

Well, we just got a little more rain today. They're talking about more nasty weather tomorrow.

45:25

We'll see what happens but If we could dig a basement we would because I could use one right now.

45:33

Yeah That's the way it's about it I'm gonna tell you That was that was that was an experience

45:40

Anyways, what we do with you do for you. Well, well, I mean, of course, you know I was there that night and I think your read on the whole thing was right on me and about 20 % of perform pub were in there

45:54

Watching the debate it was we really enjoyed it. I will say it liked the general format

46:00

I liked that there was a lot more interaction between you guys. I thought that was very helpful It would have been really helpful if you've both been doing the same debate.

46:08

Yeah, but But I I think that I Have to give credit where it's due the fact that he actually was willing to show up and do a debate unlike other people who were

46:20

Within spitting distance of the debate that night and have been willing to Talk about Calvinism, but not too willing to discuss the matter at least he was willing to do that As you remember

46:31

I did start off the debate saying that I I need to be consistent to my exegesis of Romans 9 whether I'm in a in a mosque

46:38

Whether I'm amongst atheists in a Catholic Church or at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary and I stopped and said, of course

46:45

I'm only welcome in three out of those four places Yeah, exactly. Well, I Think that if nothing else it was a very clear display of What it means to be able to handle the text tightly and it was pretty clear

47:00

He just wasn't able to do that on this subject. So I Hope that for the people that were there

47:06

They just made it abundantly clear not simply that Calvinism's right But the fact that you have to be able to take the

47:13

Bible and let it be a real Ruler for everything else that goes underneath it.

47:19

Yeah Yeah, but I was there I was definitely glad I could make it out to the

47:27

Seminar the conference on of the weekend before because I was really blessed by that and I really got a lot out of Everybody's talks yours and Tom Pennington and the millions.

47:38

Everybody was just Really on their game that weekend. So thank you very much for coming out. It was great to get to be this weekend

47:44

Well, thank you, Dave. I appreciate that yeah, the conference did go well and and obviously it was timely in light of the

47:51

Supreme Court stuff and what we're gonna be up against probably in just a matter of weeks, so Appreciate getting to meet you and having having you there

47:59

Yeah, and hopefully we'll get you out here and hopefully we'll not get sucked away to Oz Well, yeah, let's let's try the fall next time.

48:07

Maybe maybe June June or something that's gonna be hot But at least you're not gonna have that kind of stuff going on If you come in just stay away from Houston, you'll be fine.

48:17

Yeah. Oh, yeah, believe me I've been in Houston in August and it's just like wow. Yeah, if it's not a hundred degrees of a hurricane

48:26

All right, thanks Dave All right, let's continue on and talk with Ben hi

48:35

Ben Hi, dr. White. How you doing doing good? Good I've just got a question about the free offer the gospel and I Listened to your sermon on the dangers of how hyper

48:49

Calvinism and I heard your dividing line, I think it was the the previous dividing line before that sermon in regards to David Allen.

49:02

Yeah. Yes. Yes, that's correct. And I guess I'm from Owensboro, Kentucky My past one of my pastors is dr.

49:12

Sam Waldron. I actually go to CBTS right now. So I'm fully reformed the

49:17

Reformed Baptist. I just had a question about the free offer. Do you see a distinction between? The desire of God well, do you see a desire a distinction between the free offer of the gospel and A desire going forth from God or a command coming from God.

49:37

Do people make that distinction at all? I'm not sure what you mean by desire and command

49:44

Okay with the relationship between them is I I mean, I know what you're all you're you're asking and yeah, there are

49:50

There's there's I think a an appropriate Discussion that needs to be had in regards to whether one has to attribute

50:02

To God Desires that he must leave unfulfilled

50:09

And whether he desires his own unhappiness, I think there's a very important question to be addressed as to Which is more definitional of the nature of God?

50:23

and it's interesting there seems to be a Debate going on right now that I'll be honest

50:28

I haven't weighed in on it because I don't have time to read the flood of stuff coming out on Impassibility amongst

50:36

Reformed Baptists and to be honest with you right now, it seems like it's a

50:44

The two sides are so Massively close to one another that man if there's a division or something over this

50:52

I just I just want to go come on Let's divide over something important like the co or the pews or something

50:58

I mean, that's what Baptists are really good at I hope that that's not gonna happen But sometimes that that happens you get two sides going and and no matter how close they are they they just dig a huge chasm in between them and then it looks like it's the

51:12

Grand Canyon, but That you know in that debate the question is what is what is foundational

51:22

To the rest of our theology of God And I think that when we're talking about divine decrees and God's nature and the call of the gospel as Far as I can see in the

51:36

Bible God is seeking to demonstrate his power to make his wrath known and To glorify his name in the salvation of a particular people in Christ Jesus Um, that seems to be when you ask the big question the the why question

51:57

Ephesians 1 6 says it's all going to be to the praise of his glorious grace and so I Really struggle especially coming from a background of having dealt for years with people who define

52:14

God in light of Mankind specifically not

52:20

Arminians Mormons. I mean the Mormon scriptures say man was in the beginning with God and that that God's glory is to bring about the eternal life of man

52:30

And of course God is an exalted man and the whole whole concept there

52:37

And so for decades I've been trying to introduce folks to a God Who is self -sufficient?

52:44

Who did not need to create there he was under no compulsion to create and so the idea of attributing to God and I see

52:56

I very clearly talk about the prescriptive will of God and the the decrees of God and the pre in the prescriptive will of God you have

53:04

Called all men everywhere to repent. It's all it's all there. It's all clear.

53:09

This represents God's holy nature But that's not the whole story and it seems to me that some people are saying that unless you can affirm

53:20

And as an assert some kind of a almost human Emotion to God this is where it sort of runs into the impassability stuff to be honest with you

53:28

I'm not really sure how that's all playing out or if anyone's even pointed this out, but if you don't affirm some kind of a

53:40

Unfulfilled Desire to God where he has decreed that that he's gonna do one thing

53:47

But he wishes he could do something else Then somehow you don't believe in the free offer

53:54

And of course when I even when I even hear the word offer the only way I can understand that is

53:59

If in the context of the call of the gospel not not the call of Romans 8 because that's the effective call but the general call so so it's defined within the context of humanity not the will of the

54:14

Father Son and Holy Spirit and the accomplishment of the gospel itself, and so I just I Just struggle with With some of the things that some people have said that you must believe

54:27

And if you don't believe that then you you don't really believe in this and I'm just sort of like Wow, I see some major confusion there and and I just honestly when

54:37

I look at some of the folks that are saying it I asked myself the honest question has this person ever sought to take reform theology as reform theology

54:49

Into a Roman Catholic Church into a mosque in to to atheists to Mormons to Jehovah's Witnesses because I'm not saying that everybody needs to do that.

55:02

What I am saying is when you do that all of a sudden there's there's angles and light and things that you wouldn't otherwise necessarily ever have to think about and I have to think about the consistency.

55:17

That's a big thing with me the consistency of what I'm saying to others and so anyway

55:24

But I guess practically then when you know, you've had so much experience witnessing to all sorts of groups

55:31

Can you say or have you said can you say that God is desiring you to repent or God is calling you or God's hands are out

55:41

Beckoning you to come to him or is it more God is commanding you to repent act 17 well, you know if you see what

55:49

I'm talking about, yeah, yeah, I I do and That's where I I do

55:56

Step back and I go look The if what I'm being asked to do is to follow biblical commands

56:04

When Paul stood in front of non -christians on Mars Hill He said

56:10

God commands men everywhere to repent not that don't think that that meant that he was Passionless.

56:15

I don't think that that meant that he Did not have a desire to see

56:22

Everyone in his audience saved but Paul also knew that that wasn't going to happen and I Don't think you know,

56:31

I have to keep coming back to the fact that God has not revealed to us Who the elect are and so in light of that our our?

56:42

Commandment is to follow what he has prescribed in his word And I'm concerned when people say well, you need to try to make

56:51

God nicer Than what he has commanded us to say, you know, it's sort of like When I when

56:58

I've when I've presented Jesus to Muslims in debate I Recognize they've already they're up to their eyeballs

57:09

With the the long -haired hippie Jesus carrying the the little lamb in his arms.

57:14

Okay, they really are They don't respect him. I Present the

57:19

Jesus of the book of Revelation that rules the nations of the rod of iron and people hide from the wrath of the

57:25

Lamb, I want them to know that Jesus Christ has authority over all men He is Lord and someday he will judge every single person and once they know they're talking about truly

57:34

God incarnate Then when you present his love, it's no longer sticky sentimentality.

57:40

It is true condescension of the one true and living God But if you but if you don't have a balanced perspective there

57:48

It ends up being just sentimentality and I think it really robs it of its powers so I desire to see every person that I'm witnessing to saved but even this even the

58:05

Armenian has to recognize Unless they're an open theist that God already knows when

58:11

God created at least he learned then and has perfect knowledge of who is going to be saved and So, how does that impact

58:20

God? They never seem to ask that question because they're they're so anthropomorphized in God at that point that I don't even think they've even thought

58:28

Through what that ends up meaning for his knowledge and everything else. But anyways, that's a just a brief response to some of that.

58:34

I Anyway, I just need to be consistent and I need to try to rein in my emotions

58:44

My the tendency of me as a human being is to attribute to God The frustration that I have when

58:51

I see people cutting themselves off from life Yeah but my

58:56

God is I never ever ever seen a Biblical teaching that I am supposed to consider

59:02

God and to feel bad for his frustration. I Mean is that really what the prophets were talking about was when you know when when

59:11

God when God does plead with Israel Is that really meant to be understood? That that's to be understood in a human context again that takes us back to the impassibility issue and That big debate going on there.

59:22

How is that to be understood? And I just think that we should resist any temptation to Diminish the the sovereignty of God While believing everything else that the scriptures say concerning his great condescension, but it all has to be taken together and I went long on that but I Hopefully that's you know,

59:45

I'm not I'm not gonna get to Solve all of those tensions there because we are given a very full view of our

59:53

God and you know it's sort of like looking at the story of of Abraham and Isaac every time

59:59

I look at it, I see something more and It causes you to grow and there's just so many things there that it could be taken

01:00:07

Badly either direction you have to allow it to be fully balanced and I yeah,

01:00:12

I think that's what we got to do with this Too. Yeah. Well, thank you. Dr. Wyatt. I hope you can come up here and teach a class sometime soon.

01:00:20

Yeah, it's been 2010 or 2010 2011.

01:00:26

Yeah, I was there last so but it was snowing I Thank you

01:00:33

All right, well I was gonna Look at something from Catholic answers, but we'll have to just keep that queued up for the next time

01:00:43

Thank you for listening to the dividing line today Lord. Willen will be back on Thursday and don't forget

01:00:50

I am doing a debate in Southern, California on the 24th looking forward to it with any mom

01:00:56

We'll try to get these specific details up as soon as possible on that unless somebody already did that There is a banner up Well, it helped if I looked at all the banner ads.