July 25, 2023 Show with Ken Ham & Virgil Walker on “Divine Dilemma: Wrestling with the Question of a Loving God in a Fallen World”

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Live from historic downtown Carlisle, Pennsylvania, home of founding father

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James Wilson, 19th century hymn writer George Duffield, 19th century gospel minister

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George Norcross, and sports legend Jim Thorpe, it's Iron Sharpens Iron.

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This is a radio platform in which pastors, Christian scholars, and theologians address the burning issues facing the church and the world today.

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Proverbs chapter 27 verse 17 tells us iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

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Matthew Henry said that in this passage, we are cautioned to take heed with whom we converse and directed to have in view in conversation to make one another wiser and better.

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It is our hope that this goal will be accomplished over the next two hours, and we hope to hear from you, the listener, with your own questions.

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And now, here's your host, Chris Arnzen. Good afternoon,

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Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, Lake City, Florida, and the rest of humanity living on the planet Earth, who are listening via live streaming at ironsharpensironradio .com.

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This is Chris Arnzen, your host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, wishing you all a happy Tuesday on this 25th day of July 2023.

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I am absolutely thrilled to have two returning guests to the program. One of them, judging from the response of the publicity that we've given this program beforehand, is one of our favorite guests to ever have interviewed on this show,

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Ken Ham, who is founder and CEO of Answers in Genesis. He will be on with us for the first 30 minutes of the program to discuss his new book,

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Divine Dilemma, wrestling with the question of a loving God in a fallen world. And then for the remaining 90 minutes of the program, we are going to be joined by Virgil Walker, author, executive director of operations at G3 Ministries, and co -host of the

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Just Thinking podcast. And he is going to be continuing that same theme of Ken's book,

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Divine Dilemma. And we are also going to be announcing an event where Ken Ham, as well as many other speakers, are on the roster at the 2023

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G3 National Conference in Atlanta, Georgia, where I will be once again manning an exhibitor's booth, as I always do.

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But to continue letting our listeners know something more about Ken Ham, not only is he the founder and CEO of Answers in Genesis and its two popular attractions, the acclaimed

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Creation Museum and the internationally known Ark Encounter, which features a life -size, 510 -foot -long

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Noah's Ark, sometimes described as the eighth wonder of the modern world, both hosting 1 .5

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million guests annually. He's also a much -in -demand Christian speaker and interview guest, hosts the daily radio program

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Answers, now on 1 ,000 stations. He is the founder of the award -winning

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Answers Magazine and Answers TV, two -time winner of the top award from the

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National Religious Broadcasters for Best website, answersingenesis .org, a prolific blogger and author of more than 30 books.

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It's my honor and privilege to welcome you back to Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, Ken Ham. Hi, Chris.

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Great to be with you. It's always a thrill to have you on the program, and we look forward to many future return visits from you.

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Well, for those of our listeners, they must be living in a cave somewhere if they don't know about this absolutely mind -blowing

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Ark Encounter that you have created. Why don't you tell us about the

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Ark Encounter briefly before we move on to the subject of your book? Sure. The Ark Encounter and the

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Creation Museum are actually the two leading Christian -themed attractions in the world, and so we did something that's sort of rather unique to build these attractions.

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The Ark is a life -size Noah's Ark, so it's a true timber -frame structure, the biggest timber -frame structure in the world, actually, and it's one -half times the length of a football field, half the width of a football field.

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It's built 15 feet off the ground, stands 10 stories high at the bow end, 3 .3

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million board feet of timber, filled with three decks of 130 exhibits answering all sorts of questions about God's Word, the

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Bible, the Flood, post -Flood, presents the Gospel very clearly. We have a zoo behind it as well, a children's zoo.

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We do live animal programs. We have a virtual reality ride. We have carousel. We have zip lines.

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We also have a conference center, and we do all sorts of programs there, daily programs. We have our own resident music artists.

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There's nothing like this place in the world, and the Creation Museum, which was built before that, actually is a whole walk through the

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Bible, Planetarium, 4D Theater, and so on. So these attractions are doing something instead of us going out there to reach people, in a sense, and we still do that through conferences, speaking other means, but we're bringing people into these attractions.

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They come from all over the world, actually, and 30 % non -Christian will come.

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People will come to these attractions that don't go to church, and these attractions are the quality of Hollywood.

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I mean, every bit the quality, I think, better than even Disney. So they're very unique, and they're in northern

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Kentucky. Well, praise God. If anybody wants more details on how they can visit the

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ARC Encounter, go to arcencounter .com, arcencounter .com,

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and we will try to remember to repeat that at the end of the program, even after Ken has left the program.

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Well, you have this new book that is not on the subject directly of creationism.

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It is on a problem or a dilemma that is something that has been considered by mankind for as long as mankind has been writing anything down, and obviously even before that.

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But the divine dilemma wrestling with the question of a loving God in a fallen world.

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That is likely one of the most used excuses for individuals to throw in the face of a

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Christian when being evangelized, and when their heels are being dug in and they are looking for any excuse to shut that evangelical

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Christian up. It is, how could a loving God allow such indescribable inhumanity and evil in this world?

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And, of course, not only that, but you even have Christians on occasion who go through a crisis of faith.

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They may be going through the worst trial that they've ever experienced in their lives, and they may be even starting to wonder that.

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But tell us, first off, your very most profound thought on this very worldwide and ageless question.

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Well, you know, Chris, you said that it's not about the typical creation -evolution issue, age of earth and so on, but it does relate to all of that, and that's the point.

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Because Genesis 1 to 11 is the foundation for everything. And here's a point to start with.

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If people do not believe Genesis 1 to 11 is literal history, and sadly, many of our

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Christian leaders don't, and many people in our churches don't, then you're not going to answer this question correctly. You're not going to have the foundation for the answer.

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So the first thing is you've got to start with the history in Genesis 1 to 11 that is foundational doctrine, it's foundation to the rest of the

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Bible, to our Christian worldview, it's foundational to everything, actually. And when you start with that foundational history in Genesis, you realize death is an intrusion because of sin.

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In other words, the first thing we have to understand is God's not responsible for death and suffering. We are, because we sinned in Adam against a holy

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God. Now, you know, that's an important point, because we have generations today who have been doctrinated to believe in millions of years, that there was millions of years of death and disease and suffering leading up to man, and sadly, the majority of our

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Christian leaders, Christian college professors, academics, pastors in our churches have told people you can believe in millions of years and it doesn't matter.

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If you believe in millions of years and all the death and suffering we see today and disease has gone on for millions of years, then it's

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God's fault. And then what you're really saying is God's to blame for that. The Bible makes it very clear it's our sin that's to blame.

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That's why Jesus died on the cross. In fact, if you're saying God's responsible for death and disease, it's really an attack on the character of God.

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Then what did sin do? Then why did Jesus die on the cross? So we've got to get this part right before we even deal with this question of understanding a loving

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God and the death and suffering we see. And you know, in the fossil record, there's not just death.

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We see fossils, but there's evidence of diseases like cancer. Those who believe in millions of years believe all that existed before man, and Christians who then take the millions of years and add it into the

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Bible then have cancer before man, before sin. But after God made man, he said everything he made was very good.

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There was no death or disease or suffering. In the New Testament, death is called an enemy. And one day death is going to be thrown into a lake of fire.

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And the Bible tells us there'll be a restoration of all things when there'll be no more death and no more tears, no more suffering.

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So the first thing we have to understand is what Romans 8 tells us. This is a groaning world because of our sin.

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And then we can stand back and then start to think about the question, okay, God is a loving

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God. If he's a loving God, why does he allow us to go through all this? I mean, death was the penalty for sin.

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We deserve nothing. Because we rebelled against a holy God, we don't even deserve to exist. But God placed upon us the curse of death, the judgment of death.

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Our bodies die. But he did that so that he could come and rescue us. And he stepped into history in the person of his son to die on a cross and be raised from the dead so we can spend eternity with him.

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And that's why it says precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of one of his saints because death is a judgment for sin, but through death

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Christ brings us life, eternal life with him for those who put their trust in him.

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And, you know, this particular book is a very unique book, I believe, because it's written from a perspective of myself and my mother as we're grappling with the death of my younger brother.

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My mother had to go through the death of my father when he was fairly young at 66 years old. She passed away when she was 92, actually.

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And I had a younger brother who was quite a number of years younger than me, and he ended up with a terrible brain disease.

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It was horrible, the things that happened to him, and just to see him lose his ability to speak and teach.

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He was a great Bible teacher, stood on the word of God. And I remember my mother even saying things like, you know, the liberal pastor down the street that teaches against the

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Bible, he's as healthy as an ox. But my son, who loved God and loved his word, he – look what's happening to him.

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And I reminded my mother, you know, Mom, yeah, even though Robert has got this horrible disease and he's going to die, well, that liberal pastor down the street is going to die.

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But when Robert does, he'll be totally healed, which he is now totally healed. But if that liberal pastor doesn't repent of his sin and put his trust in Christ, he'll be separated from God for eternity.

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And, you know, we had to struggle through all these issues. And in the book, I talk about, you know, it's okay for us as Christians to grieve.

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It's okay to ask those questions. I mean, we still struggle. You know, why did God let that happen? You know,

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Robert left a family and he was so young. He was such a good Bible teacher. Don't we need more

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Bible teachers? You know, but we don't see things as God sees them. And I think the big lessons through the whole book and for people – this is a long way to answer the one question you asked me.

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Oh, I love it. The big lesson is really when you start to understand from a perspective of the book of Job.

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And you see, the book of Job, people say, well, isn't that about death and suffering and what happened to Job and what happened to his family?

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And we get a little insight at the beginning of the book that God allowed him to go through all of this.

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And, you know, his friends gave him all sorts of bad advice and so on and trying to justify things in their own eyes and that sort of thing.

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And then even when Job started to talk to God about, you know, he was being a good man and he trusted

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God and so on. And then what happened? And this is the point, I think, where we need to come to this.

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All of us need to come to this position. When Job listened to God and God said, Job, can you do this?

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Can you do that? Can you do this? It's interesting how God talks about the creation in particular. You know, what about these stars?

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Can you bind them together? Can you do this? Can you provide this? Can you explain how this works?

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And you go through Job 38, 39, 40, 41, and at the end, Job gets it.

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And he repents and dusts and ashes and he says, now I see you. You know all things.

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And I think, you know, the position we've got to come to is this. Just because from our perspective something doesn't make sense or we can't see something good that could come out of it or anything like that.

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Think about with Joseph. I mean all sorts of evil things happened to Joseph and what his brothers did to him.

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And yet later on you look back and say, wow, what they meant for evil, God meant for good.

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Or you could look at Queen Esther the same way. And I could even look back at my brother's death and realize, wow, this book that's been written about him, there's hundreds of thousands, maybe millions more people.

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And with all the interviews I do, I'm going to hear about this and God will reach more people through his death than even in his life.

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Maybe that's part of the purposes of God allowing him to go through all this. But the point is we know nothing compared to what

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God knows. And just because we can't see everything and understand it all doesn't mean

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God doesn't have some special purposes for those things.

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And God can take evil things and evil circumstances and use them for good.

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You take what happened on the cross. When Jesus died on the cross, it was an evil event.

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And even the disciples at the time couldn't even understand it. It didn't make sense. Even though the prophecies were there in the

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Old Testament, they didn't get it. It didn't make sense. And now we look back and say, wow,

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God used that evil event, the most evil event in history. You know, where they crucified the

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Son of God. And yet God used it for eternal things. Wow.

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And that's what we've got to do. It doesn't mean we don't grieve. It doesn't mean we don't struggle. We don't ask

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God those questions. And I go through that with my mother, and she never questioned her faith.

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She was always a great woman of faith and witness to people, but she struggled. And she struggled with these, as we all struggle and still do to an extent.

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And it's okay to do that because we're human. We're finite. But we still have to come to that place where we let

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God be God. And that's the whole point. So it's a very unique book in that way. I open myself up personally, a lot of personal circumstances, personal struggles, the things we went through.

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And yet looking at it from a big picture perspective, but you've got to start with the foundational history in Genesis 1 to 11.

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Until we get that right, we're not going to be able to get anything else right. Amen. Well, I'm going to give our listeners our e -mail address if you have a question for Ken Ham.

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Keep in mind he's only on the first 30 minutes of the program today. So if you do have a question,

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I would fire it off immediately because we're already over halfway through his segment of today's program.

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ChrisArnzen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com. Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence.

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It's interesting that people would claim that this dilemma of there being a loving

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God in a fallen world somehow disproves the existence of God as if this finite human being, who must be aware of their limitations and impotence and frailties, how they could think that God does not exist just because his own demands of what must be required of God in his mind don't appear to be in existence.

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Isn't that an amazing thing that puny men would dare question the existence of God because they don't meet his requirements?

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Well, you know, it's interesting. I've talked to a lot of atheists over the years, a lot of secularists, and they will say things like, look, if there's a loving

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God, how come you let these bad things happen? He's so unjust and so on. The first thing

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I say to them is, wait a minute, if you're not a Christian and you don't believe in God, then what do you base your standards?

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Why can you accuse something else of being unjust? Why could you accuse God of not doing something that's right?

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How do you determine what's good and what's bad? It's like, you know, in the New Testament when that man came to Jesus and said, good master, and he said, why do you call me good?

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There's only one good, save God. And so really, you know, it's only from a

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Christian perspective that we know what is good and what is bad. And so for a non -Christian, they can't come and accuse

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God of being unjust or say how can you believe in a loving God because they have no basis, no absolute basis for justice in that sense, for determining what's right and what's wrong or what's good and what's bad.

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So that's the first thing that we need to understand. So it's only the Christian who can really understand about good and bad and what's evil and so on.

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And then we have to come to that understanding that there's one God who is the absolute authority and it's

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God who determines what's right and what's wrong. And so it's only on that basis that we can even begin to understand these things.

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And, you know, in regard to the ultimate question of the origin of evil and so on, I mean there's some of those, part of those mysteries and understanding we don't know everything.

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We do know that God gave Adam a choice, the first man. We do know that the devil was there and tempted

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Adam and Eve and that Adam succumbed and we know that Adam gets the blame for sin, right, not the devil because Adam brought sin and death into this world.

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We don't understand all there is to know about those sorts of things. We're not God. Only God understands.

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And one day when we're in heaven, maybe God will give us more understanding of those sorts of things and maybe it's just something that we wouldn't even get if he explained it to us right now, you know, as finite human beings.

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But regardless, what we've got to do as Christians is to understand who God is.

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He's the creator who is infinite in knowledge and wisdom. He is all -powerful.

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He is all -knowing. That's what we've got to remember. And the Bible is his word and he's revealed to us all that we need to know about who we are, where we came from, what our problem is, sin, what the consequence is, death, and what the solution is in Jesus Christ.

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And, you know, for anything, when you look at any issue at all, and these days there are all sorts of issues, the abortion issue, the gay marriage issue, the racism issue,

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LGBT issue, it doesn't matter what it is, the death and suffering issue. They're all different symptoms of a problem of man trying to understand life and reality, and there's only one solution.

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It's the right foundation to understand all those, and that is the truth of God's word, and the solution is the saving gospel.

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I mean, that's really what it comes down to. And that, to me, is something I put in the book. In Luke 18, you know, the

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Tarasalon fell on people and killed 18, and Jesus said, were they worse sinners than others that they would die?

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And then he answered the question. He says, repent. He said, think about that. Why did these people die?

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And the answer is repent. In other words, everyone's going to die. So when someone says, why did that person die?

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And that's something else I talk about in the book. You know, people say, well, why did your brother die? But wait a minute.

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Everyone's going to die. You're going to die. Everyone's going to die. And what was Jesus' answer to that with the

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Tarasalon? Repent. In other words, make sure you're ready because your turn will come, and make sure that you put your faith and trust in the

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Lord Jesus Christ. Before I go to a listener question, I vividly recall when

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I arranged a debate between Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who's one of the speakers along with you at the upcoming

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G3 conference, and the man who was at the time the president of American Atheists, the organization founded by Madeleine Murray O 'Hare.

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Dr. White was challenging David Silverman on how he can come up with a list of rules that would reflect whether someone is good or evil.

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In fact, the very theme of the debate was, is the New Testament evil?

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And David Silverman said that evil is determined by whatever the vast majority of people in a particular region of the world at a particular time in history deemed to be evil.

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So James White said, and keep in mind, David Silverman is an atheist

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Jew. He's ethnically Jewish. James White said, so if you were being marched into the death camp of Dachau or Auschwitz, the worst complaint that you could summon up was not that this is evil, but I find this personally offensive, and David Silverman actually had to admit yes.

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He could not say that that was evil. It's all subjective, and therefore people can have different rules and determine different definitions of good and bad.

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And that's what happens when you build your thinking on man's word.

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Anything goes, moral relativism. And we have our first listener question, Grady in Asheboro, North Carolina.

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Greetings, brothers. One of the biggest problems I see in the church today is that it seems most

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Christians don't know the attributes of our God. Because of that, they fail to realize that He is sovereign and He sustains us.

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Do you agree? Oh, absolutely. They don't understand the attributes of God, and you know what?

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They don't understand the holiness of God. They don't understand what sin has done. They don't understand how finite we are.

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You know, one of the problems we've got, if you go back to Genesis 3, 1 and 3, 5, when the devil tempted

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Adam and Eve, he said, did God really say, and then you can be like God.

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And our sin nature is really summed up in that we don't want to believe the word of God, and we want to be our own

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God. And we all have that sin nature. And so we have got to make sure we don't let sin master over us.

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And I think today a lot of people, because they haven't been taught Genesis, 1 to 11 is literal history, they don't understand the origin of sin, the origin of death.

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They don't understand how we rebelled against a holy God. Then they don't understand the holiness of God.

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They don't understand what it means that we are sinner, that the heart of man is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked.

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And they don't really understand who God is. That's why we've got to be, and I keep coming back to Job.

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We've got to be like Job. Every one of us needs to come and recognize we know nothing compared to what God knows.

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He's the infinite creator God. We know nothing compared to what he knows, and we need to let him speak to us and not us tell

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God what we think he means. Thank you, Grady. You've just won a free copy of Divine Dilemma.

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Thanks to our friends at Master Books who have given us a limited number of copies to give away to listeners who ask questions.

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And so please make sure we have your full mailing address and Cumberland Valley Bible Book Service, cvbbs .com, we'll ship that out to you.

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We have Arnie in Perry County, Pennsylvania, who wants to know,

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I don't know how many people today remember Rabbi Kushner's book, Why Bad Things Happen to Good People, but does that book have any influence on the church today, in your opinion?

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You know, I don't really know whether it has a lot of impact. I mean, I know of the book,

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Why Bad Things Happen to Good People, but I will say this. I think what has had a great influence on much of the church today is a lack of biblical teaching.

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There's a famine in the land. Hosea says, My people suffer from a lack of knowledge, and there's been a lack of teaching in regard to Genesis 1 to 11, which is the foundation for all doctrine, for everything.

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I think that is what's had the impact on the church today. You know, it's interesting that even though most evangelicals, at least,

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I'm quite confident that many liberals would still agree with Rabbi Kushner, putting limitations on God, like God would stop pain and suffering if he could.

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That was Rabbi Kushner's answer, that God couldn't do those things. But there are many evangelicals that have a similar heresy in that they remove

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God's involvement from any kind of human suffering. In fact,

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I worked for a radio station, a major radio station, during the tragedy, the horrific attacks on the

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World Trade Center and the Pentagon building on 9 -11, and there were many evangelicals trying to give comfort to our listeners with brief sermonettes, and they were saying,

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Don't listen to the lie of the devil that God had anything at all to do with this. Isn't that an equally dangerous concept of God, as if he is just observing things and sitting passively by?

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Oh, absolutely. I mean, God is totally in control of everything. He is God. He's sovereignly in control of all things.

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I mean, again, that verse from Romans 8, 28,

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All things work together for good. But then it says, For them who love the Lord, in other words, for Christians.

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And we have got to recognize that God is in control of everything. There's nothing that happens that he doesn't allow, or that he is in control of, because he is.

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He's the sovereign God. And so when we look at these things, we say, But that's so evil. Why would

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God allow that? Well, why did he allow what happened to Joseph? Why did he allow what happened to, you could even start to talk about Shadrach, Meshach, and Bendigo, and Daniel, and Esther?

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You can go through them and you can see, Why did God even allow his son to be crucified on the cross?

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As we said earlier, isn't that an evil event? Of course it was a terrible evil event. And yet God's purposes were fulfilled in the salvation of man through that evil event.

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So, no, God is in control of everything. He is God. Again, it's the lesson that Job learned.

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We have to fall down in dust and ashes and say, Even though I don't understand everything, and I can't because I'm a finite being,

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I have to let God be God. He's in control of everything. Well, we are out of time.

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We do have more people waiting to have their questions asked and answered, but Virgil Walker will have to answer your questions on the same theme, because we are continuing the same theme of Divine Dilemma.

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And I want you to summarize as briefly as you can what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today about this book.

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You know, one of the things I want people to understand is that, you know, the issue of how do you understand a loving

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God and all the death and suffering and disease is first of all beginning in understanding the problem that we have, the problem that we are finite beings, that we are sinners, that we sinned against a holy

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God, and that death and suffering is not God's fault. It's our fault because we rebelled against a holy

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God. I think we've got to understand what sin is, what our sin is, the holiness of God, and then to stand back and understand

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God is in control of everything. We deserve nothing, and yet He provided the solution for us in Jesus Christ.

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And while we're on this earth, we're going to go through the pain of having diseases and death because we're not above the consequences of sin.

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We have to suffer those consequences of sin, and yet God is in control of all of that, and through that God has provided a wonderful way of salvation for us.

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And even though we might not understand the things that are happening around us or happening to us or happening to others, we have to stand back and look from a big -picture perspective, as Job did, and recognize

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God is God. He's in total control. Nothing happens outside of His control, and He does allow evil things to happen for His own purposes.

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And sometimes we can look back and see them, as we can look back on the cross and see that, or on Esther or on Joseph and others.

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Sometimes we can't, and maybe we won't until we get to heaven. But regardless, we've got to let

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God be God, and that's where it stands. Amen. Virgil Walker has just joined us, the

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Executive Director of Operations at G3 Ministries. Would you like to say a quick greeting to Ken Ham, Virgil?

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And I guess Virgil stepped away from his seat. Well, it has been an honor and privilege, again, to have you return to our program,

31:17

Ken. I really look forward to your return visits, and I will promote anything that comes from your labors and your pen, because I have nothing but the highest confidence that you are accurately and faithfully representing

31:31

God's truth in this modern world. Thanks, Chris. That's very special of you, and I look forward to talking with you again.

31:39

And Virgil, can you want to say a brief greeting to Ken? No, just thank you, Ken Ham, for your ministry.

31:45

It's been a blessing to me and so many others. So we're looking forward to having you at the G3 Conference. I look forward to being there.

31:51

We'll see you there. All right. God bless you, Ken. Bye -bye. And don't forget about the website for Ken in Answers in Genesis.

31:59

It's answersingenesis .org, answersingenesis .org, and we will give you more details about the other events and things that Answers in Genesis offers toward the end of our interview with Virgil Walker.

32:15

And we're going to continue this theme, as I said before, with Virgil Walker when we return from our first commercial break.

32:22

If anybody has a question for Virgil on the very theme that we started with Ken, Divine Dilemma, Wrestling with the

32:30

Question of a Loving God in a Falling World, send it to chrisarnson at gmail .com,

32:37

chrisarnson at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker, so don't go away.

32:45

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

32:57

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

33:03

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity, the debate topic,

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Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church? So come join us for the sixth

33:20

Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

33:27

Saturday with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reformed Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching with a theme of the

33:36

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

33:43

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

34:01

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnzen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

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G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

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I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

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Chris Arnzen, I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd at the

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That's royaldiadem .com. I mentioned Chris Orensen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And now we have joining us

43:02

Virgil Walker, author, executive director of operations at G3 Ministries and co -host of the

43:07

Just Thinking podcast along with Darrell Bernard Harrison. And we are continuing the theme that Ken Ham began in the first half hour,

43:15

Divine Dilemma, wrestling with the question of a loving God in a fallen world. It's great to have you on the program again, my dear friend

43:21

Virgil Walker. Man, it's always a joy to be with you, Chris. Glad to have the opportunity. Yes, and I am so blessed by God that during our last interaction at the conference in Black Mountain, North Carolina, that during downtime

43:43

I got to know you and your lovely wife so much better because of the fact that it was more of an informal fellowship that we were able to enjoy than ever before.

43:58

And please send my warm greetings in Christ to her, and I look forward to sharing fellowship with the both of you again very soon.

44:05

Yeah, we look forward to it, man. We had a great time. Ms. Tamika is an experience for sure.

44:11

That's my dear bride, and she sends her greetings to you. She's always excited to know that I'm going to be on and that I'll be with you and mentioned to make sure that I greeted you as well.

44:22

So we both enjoyed our time with you at the conference. It was great.

44:28

Praise God. Well, tell us now about the upcoming G3 conference, the next national conference which is being held again in Atlanta, Georgia.

44:37

Yeah, it's going to be absolutely amazing. I'm just going through the final details. We just crossed the 60 -day mark, so we're counting down the days and two months out, a little less than two months out from the event.

44:50

I really believe it's going to be the event of the year. There's no other place that you can go and see this many world -class preachers in one space, in one place, at one time, all on the theme of the sovereignty of God.

45:07

And it's going to be an amazing, amazing experience. Some of the best of the best, as you know, guests you've had on your show, those that you and I both have admired for quite some time, the likes of Paul Washer, Dr.

45:21

Brody Bauckham, Stephen Lawson, James White. You mentioned him earlier. Josh Bice, Ken Ham will be there as well.

45:30

Just a robust roster of just some of the best in the best preaching, some of the greatest theologians that we have to offer.

45:41

And so I'm excited about it. It's going to be an amazing time. Add all of that to all of the other events that are going to be happening around that that are geared for family.

45:51

And it'll be a tremendous, tremendous time, and it will be something that most won't want to miss.

45:57

Right now we're trending about a little over 7 ,200 are registered.

46:03

As of right now, we anticipate a full house at 8 ,500 coming up here in September.

46:09

And September 21st through the 23rd, this will be the event not to miss.

46:16

And so definitely go online, go to g3min .org to register.

46:22

And I think you have a code, don't you? Yes, G3ISIR. G3ISIR, and you'll get 30 % off the registration fee.

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So please use that promo code for the discount of 30 % off. That's G3ISIR, which stands for Iron Sharpens Iron Radio.

46:41

And not only is Ken Ham, our first guest today, going to be on the roster, but Vody Baucom, Paul Washer, Phil Johnson, James White, Justin Peters, James Coates, the pastor in Canada who was arrested for refusing to shut down during the

47:00

COVID crisis. My guest right now, Virgil Walker, and his partner on the

47:05

Just Thinking podcast, Daryl Bernard Harrison, and many more.

47:11

And we hope that you will join us there. And again, the website is g3min .org

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and use promo code G3ISIR. And one thing that's very encouraging to me about your conference is that I am hearing from more and more

47:29

Christians who are outside of our theologically reformed, sovereign grace,

47:36

Calvinistic circles, who are discovering the G3 conference. They're hearing about it and they're excited about it.

47:42

They want to come to it. And I know that that must have something to do with the fact that you don't only have the doctrines of the sovereignty of God, which is the main theme this year.

47:56

But you have addressed so many other issues in the history of the conference that they have been something that has been bringing about enthusiasm and excitement in the minds and hearts of many crossing denominational lines.

48:15

Yeah, we've been in a lot of spaces. Myself, Dr. Josh Bice, also our executive vice president,

48:24

Scott Annual. We've been in so many different spaces talking about different issues, culturally related and otherwise.

48:31

I mean, you've been a tremendous help in helping us amplify our voice in some of those spaces. And because of those opportunities,

48:38

I've had the wonderful opportunity of being a commentator on the podcast with Jason Whitlock called

48:50

Fearless. And so because of my regular appearances in that space and a variety of other spaces, not to –

48:57

I mean, definitely to include this one here, folks who are outside of quote -unquote reformed circles are hearing about our commentary, are hearing about a biblical worldview, a robust biblical worldview, and how it interacts with culture, and they're wanting more.

49:15

So they begin to look us up. They look up the names and identify with what we're doing. And I think that's a big part of the exponential growth that we're seeing.

49:26

And we hope it continues because, as you and Ken were talking about earlier and as we've often mentioned on the show, there's such a need for sound biblical doctrine, for people to understand theology, and not just from a philosophical point of view but from a standpoint of how does theology and our understanding of God interact with the day -to -day application.

49:51

The idea of just having practical theology, theology that walks with you every day, is something that I think people are absolutely hungry for.

50:01

And so we're proud here at G3 to represent that in such a way that people are taking notice.

50:07

Yes, and it is no exaggeration, no hyperbole that, in my opinion and in my experience, the

50:16

G3 conference is my very favorite conference of all, and there are so many reasons why, not only because of the powerful, dynamic, brilliant, gifted speakers, but also the opportunity for me as a radio and podcast host to not only meet many, many, many people who love the show that I've never heard from before who approached me at my booth, but also to see face -to -face people who have written in many questions over the years, who

50:48

I've never met before. And I've also met very valuable people who are business owners and members of industry and also who are pastors and people who run para -church organizations who have wound up supporting this program financially.

51:05

So there are just so many reasons why I love G3, and the fellowship is something that is most lasting in my mind that I will cherish forever.

51:17

Yeah, there are two aspects to the G3 conference, and I think you hit it well. One is the aspect of the phenomenal preaching that you're going to hear, the teaching that will be in the breakouts, some of the best of the best, and speakers and preachers and leaders and theologians who will be there, who will participate.

51:34

That's one aspect of it. The other, and it's multifaceted, it's not just twofold, but the other is the fact that the fellowship that you have with people that more times than not you've perhaps met online or through social media, maybe you've had interactions with, who are then there.

51:51

So you have the excitement and joy of seeing a world -class, a world -famous preacher, but then there's kind of this other bubble that happens with a lot of these folks who are social media influencers and maybe have a podcast and the like, who others may not know so well, but have the opportunity to meet with, connect with, learn about their ministry, and thank them for what they've provided in the way of clarity on the

52:19

Scriptures. Amen. Well, once again, g3men .org is the website to register and also just to find out more about the conference, g3men .org,

52:29

and please, if you're registering, use promo code G3ISIR for 30 % off the registration fee.

52:35

We're going to our midway break right now, and when we return we will dive right into the subject that we began with Ken Ham, the subject of his book

52:45

Divine Dilemma, and if you have a question regarding the fact that mankind wrestles with the question of a loving

52:54

God in a fallen world, send it to ChrisArnsen at gmail .com, C -H -R -I -S -A -R -N -Z -E -N at gmail .com.

53:02

Give us your first name at least, your city and state, and your country of residence. Only remain anonymous if your question involves a personal and private matter, and I can well imagine that a subject like this, because it involves human suffering and pain,

53:14

I can well imagine that some of our listeners may be sending in anonymous questions, and we will grant you your request to remain anonymous.

53:22

Please be patient with us, folks. This is the longer than normal break in the middle of the show because Grace Life Radio requires of us a longer break in the middle because the

53:30

FCC requires of them to localize this program geographically to Lake City, Florida, with their own public service announcements and other things that are local, and while they do that, we are a globally heard commercial, so please try to respond to as many of our advertisers as possible so that they will know that their money is well spent on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, and once again, our email address is

53:52

ChrisArnsen at gmail .com. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker, so please do not go away.

53:58

The Mid -Atlantic Reformation Society presents The Future of Christendom 2023, The Gospel at War, September 15th to the 16th in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, featuring

54:10

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries. We are excited to be including a formal debate in this year's conference.

54:17

Dr. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries will be debating Dr. Gregory Coles, author of Single Gay Christian, A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity.

54:26

The debate topic, Is Gay Christian a Biblically Acceptable Identity for a Member of Christ's Church?

54:31

So come join us for the sixth Future of Christendom conference. The event will take place at Spooky Nook Sports in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, and will run from Friday evening through all day

54:40

Saturday, with an invitation to the Sunday morning worship service of the Independence Reform Bible Church. This will be a weekend packed with practical teaching, with a theme of the

54:49

Gospel at War in many areas of our culture, including government schools, the Supreme Court, missions, feminism, and even the church pulpits.

54:56

Head to futureofchristendom .org. James White of Alpha and Omega Ministries here.

55:19

I'm very excited to announce that my longtime friend Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio and I are heading down to Atlanta, Georgia again for the

55:27

G3 National Conference. That's Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd, on a theme that I have been preaching, teaching, writing about, and defending in live public debates for most of my life, the sovereignty of God.

55:40

I'll be joined on the speaking roster by Steve Lawson, Voti Baucom, Paul Washer, Virgil Walker, Scott Anuel, and Josh Bice, founder of G3 Ministries.

55:52

And there's more great news. Chris Arnsen of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio can get you a 30 % discount off the registration fee.

56:00

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Chris Arnsen and I look forward to seeing you all Thursday, September 21st through Saturday the 23rd for the

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Go to g3min .org and enter promo code G3ISIR for your 30 % discount off the registration fee.

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It's such a blessing to hear from Iron Sharpens Iron Radio listeners from all over the world.

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Going back to 2005, one of my very favorite guests on Iron Sharpens Iron is

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01:06:48

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01:09:07

Virgil Walker, and we are continuing the subject that Ken Ham began in the beginning of the program,

01:09:12

Divine Dilemma, wrestling with the question of a loving God in a fallen world. Virgil, is this not what very often in your own conversations with lost people especially, is this not what comes up as a defense from that person to basically to shut you up?

01:09:34

Yeah, yeah, it really does. It's, you know, more times than not, what

01:09:39

I come to find in my interactions with others, whenever we're talking about the gospel or there's an evangelistic proclamation of the gospel being presented, what normally happens is people use the idea of evil in the world as a shield against the acknowledgement of God's existence.

01:10:05

The problem with doing that, and Ken mentioned it in the first segment, is that their thought process is that they don't have to explain the same phenomenon.

01:10:15

If you don't believe in a God and you think everything that happens in the world is due to natural causes, you still, based upon that worldview, have to explain why there is indeed evil in the world.

01:10:28

You're first going to have to explain it from a standpoint of having a standard by which to judge that anything evil, and then secondarily, you're going to have to explain what your

01:10:39

God, if you will, is going to do about that. Primarily, people are appealing to the

01:10:45

God of self. The further thing that I'll say about that, Chris, is what we're seeing in our culture is the appeal to the

01:10:54

God of self, is having tremendous ramifications, implications. You think about what we're dealing with currently in our culture with everything, and Ken mentioned it as well, everything from issues about sexuality, to issues related to gender, to issues related to race, and the like.

01:11:14

All of these stem from the fact that people have ignored what God has declared about these issues, have determined that their standard will be their own personal subjective feelings, and it will be by that standard that they judge the world.

01:11:30

But they want to pick up a Christian standard when they approach you in an effort to blame

01:11:36

God for that, which they've really been the cause of, the evil that has permeated the world and the culture due to sin.

01:11:45

So that's what's really happening. Well, we do have an anonymous listener who says,

01:11:52

I'm remaining anonymous to not unnecessarily offend a dear friend who is an atheist, who

01:11:58

I have been involved with on an ongoing battle over the issue of the existence of God.

01:12:06

Doesn't Romans 1 rule out the possibility that atheists even exist?

01:12:11

Aren't those who are professing to be atheists really masquerading as such because they're really suppressing the truth that nature provides a minimum amount of evidence that we are held responsible for God?

01:12:30

Yeah, Romans 1 doesn't say that nature provides sufficient evidence for salvation, but it leaves us without excuse.

01:12:38

Absolutely. Absolutely it does. I mean, that's the clear text of the scripture, the wrath of God being revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of man who suppress the truth.

01:12:50

What can be known about God is plain to us because God has shown it to us. His invisible attributes,

01:12:56

His eternal power and divine nature are clearly perceived ever since the creation of the world and the things have been made so that men are without excuse.

01:13:04

This is the primary text that lets us know that there are indeed no atheists.

01:13:14

There's no such thing as an atheist. What we have, according to this scripture, are people who are suppressing the truth about God that they clearly know, that they're clearly aware of based upon the general revelation that God has provided in created order.

01:13:33

Ken Ham and all of what they do at the Creation Museum, they spend their lives examining this, exposing this, and making clear the beauty and majesty of our

01:13:47

Creator. We all know that He exists. This is sufficient knowledge to condemn us, but Chris, you're absolutely right.

01:13:55

It is insufficient knowledge to provide salvation for us, but it does point to God's existence, to the reality.

01:14:03

It is indeed the special revelation that we have from the Word of God through the person and work of Jesus Christ and through the proclamation of the gospel that we come into a knowledge of salvation.

01:14:18

Yes, and by the way, Anonymous, if you give me your full mailing address through an email,

01:14:23

I obviously won't divulge that on the air, and your full name, you will receive a free copy of the book that we are addressing by Ken Ham, Divine Dilemma, Wrestling with the

01:14:37

Question of a Loving God in a Fallen World. Let me ask you about that very question that was asked of the audience member.

01:14:46

What do you think, I mean, we're not prophets, we're not mind readers, only God can actually know infallibly the hearts and minds of men, but what is going on in the mind of a person that professes to be an atheist?

01:15:00

I mean, are they actually faking being an atheist, or in their brain, have they suppressed the truth so much that they've driven out of their mind any thought that there is a possibility

01:15:13

God exists? Or again, to repeat myself, is this just a faked profession?

01:15:20

Yeah, my thought would be that many that I've ever talked to truly believe, they truly have deceived themselves into believing that God does not exist.

01:15:32

For them, primarily, it is a convenience that allows them to avoid the accountability that they would have if they acknowledge

01:15:43

God's existence. It allows them to enjoy their sin, to be far removed at least, and from a standpoint of their conscious mind, to be far removed from any judgment of God or from God.

01:15:56

But the reality is that very condition is evidence of the fact that they've indeed already been judged.

01:16:03

That same text of Scripture that we were reading from in Romans 1 says that when someone does that, when they suppress that truth and unrighteousness,

01:16:12

God gives them up to the lusts of their flesh. God gives them over to a depraved mind.

01:16:19

And God eventually gives them over to do those things which shall not be done. The Scripture is absolutely clear about these things.

01:16:28

And so witnessing someone who is so self -deceived that they begin to utter things like God does not exist, it's not a good thing.

01:16:38

It's something that they should be very concerned about because it's a reflection of the fact that they are indeed walking out

01:16:46

God's judgment. The only hope that they would have would be that they would hear the proclamation of the gospel and that the

01:16:52

Spirit of God would awaken their hearts and minds to the reality that is

01:16:58

God's existence. Well, we have another listener. We have

01:17:05

Ronald in Eastern Suffolk County, Long Island, New York. And Ronald asks,

01:17:12

One thing that I have heard in response to people who are going through enormous agonizing pain or suffering, both those that deny the existence of God and even professing

01:17:25

Christians who are experiencing something more weighty and agonizing than they have ever experienced before.

01:17:31

They say if God is really a God of love and is even more loving than humans, why is he permitting agony in such a level that humans would not if they are loving parents, loving spouses, loving brothers and sisters, loving children.

01:17:52

We would not sit by idly and allow somebody to be agonizing and torturous pain if we could stop it.

01:18:01

Yeah, I think that's a great question. It's the kind of question that causes a lot of people great pause.

01:18:08

I think we begin with understanding something that we ignore often in our current day and time, and that is the fact that God is sovereign.

01:18:20

While we as human beings only see a moment in time, a sliver of eternity, we cannot know what

01:18:31

God knows. God is sovereign over all things. He has the eternal view in mind.

01:18:38

So as we witness people endure great suffering and are heartbroken by it and should do what we can to rectify it, to see it end,

01:18:48

God's in total and complete control. The worst of the worst kind of torture, of condemnation, of horror that we did witness would be the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the perfect God -man on a cross.

01:19:09

That was witnessed and took place for the mere purpose of us coming into a saving knowledge of Christ and having eternal life.

01:19:19

So while we have a limited view, a minute view of all of eternity, and though we may believe that the suffering that anyone is enduring could be more than they could bear and would do all that we could to rectify it,

01:19:36

I have total faith and trust in God and His ability to see the entirety of the picture and have an understanding of why the horror or the tribulation is being endured by any particular individual.

01:19:54

The hope would be that that suffering wouldn't end or wouldn't result in a complete devastation, but that God would have some redeeming purpose in the life of that individual or those who experienced that.

01:20:12

Well, Ronald, you've also won a free copy of the book we are discussing, Divine Dilemma.

01:20:17

Make sure we have your full mailing address in Eastern Suffolk County where cvbbs .com can ship that out to you.

01:20:25

And we thank Master Books once again for providing us with these free copies.

01:20:32

Before I move on to any listener questions, give some more of your thoughts about this ageless question that seems to be one of the most frequently asked questions, if not the most frequently asked question.

01:20:48

Yeah, I think it is. And again, it goes back to kind of what we were talking about earlier, which is the idea that, you know, there is suffering.

01:20:57

People endure it. And so what has God to do about it? I think the last question was a great one because I think it exposes kind of what most people think about God, that perhaps human beings, that you and I have a better view of how to care for others than God does.

01:21:16

And so that's kind of the thought process. But we have to recognize that all of what we experience in this sin -filled world is the direct result of our forefathers' sin, of Adam who fell, of Eve who was beguiled.

01:21:35

And so when we start from that starting point, we recognize that it is not God who is to blame, but it is we ourselves.

01:21:41

And so we endure suffering, we endure wickedness, we endure a fallen world as a direct result of the sin that entered the world through Adam.

01:21:51

That's the culprit. That's the point at which that all takes place. God owes us nothing.

01:21:57

God does not owe us a life free from sin or rather a life free from hurt, harm, or danger.

01:22:05

That is something that we experience based upon His divine grace. The suffering even that we experience is a direct result of His allowing those things to happen in order,

01:22:19

Scripture says, to conform us into the image of His Son, recognizing that we can do nothing in and of ourselves and that we have a constant need to be connected to Him.

01:22:29

So all that we experience in suffering is for the very purpose of conforming us into the image of Christ.

01:22:39

Amen. And do we not, or should

01:22:45

I say, must we not as Christians be extremely careful not to, with well or good intentions, unconsciously begin to mimic

01:22:57

Job's so -called friends. Sometimes we want nothing more when somebody is lying there in agony to use that as an opportunity to pontificate, to be overbearing in our perhaps judgment of the person.

01:23:16

Could it also be a reverse? I'll get to the reverse after you answer this question about being like Job's friends.

01:23:25

But the reverse is where you say nothing about a person's sin and you tell them, oh, there's nothing wrong with you.

01:23:31

This is not your fault, all that kind of thing. But if you could, tell us about the first issue of being like Job's friends and speaking too much during a time of crisis like this.

01:23:48

Yeah, absolutely. I think that's spot on. Those who are familiar with the Book of Job, it was a book written very early in the canon of Scripture.

01:23:59

And so it's one that tells us, gives us a clear idea about what we may endure as a result of suffering, something that God may allow.

01:24:09

God allowed Satan to deal with Job in this way for the purpose of, one, our benefit.

01:24:16

We benefited from what Job went through as we have the opportunity to read what he walked through as it pertains to what the

01:24:26

Scriptures have to say. I think you make a great point is that we can claim that we know more than we do about anyone's given situation and begin to pontificate about things we don't know.

01:24:37

Even Job, he blamed God. I mean, some of the language that we've endured or encountered during our time together kind of exposes what people think in those ways, like, what's wrong with God?

01:24:49

Why wouldn't He care for me? Why wouldn't He do this for me? And we can get in that kind of a mindset.

01:24:55

I love the Book of Job. I read it almost every year. I love chapter 38 when

01:25:01

Job, who has required audience with God, actually has God answer, and God answers

01:25:07

Job from a whirlwind. And He asked the question, Who is this that is darkened counsel by words without knowledge, dressed for action like a man?

01:25:16

And I will question you, and you make it known to me. And then he begins a litany of questions. Where were you when

01:25:21

I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements?

01:25:27

Surely you know. Or who stretched the line upon it? God is walking

01:25:32

Job through the idea that he is not in a position to question God, but rather God is the one who is in control, sovereignly so, and that we have every responsibility to bow the knee to Him.

01:25:45

Amen. And let's see here. We have BB in Cumberland County, Pennsylvania, who has a question.

01:25:56

Is it not very wrong for us to assume when we are trying to comfort someone that we know how they feel?

01:26:10

Because even though we may have experienced something nearly identical in regard to the loss of a spouse, a loved one, a divorce, a death in the family, anything that we can come up with, at the same time, people are individuals, their relationships are unique, and the way they respond to them are unique.

01:26:31

Yeah. No, I think that's a great question, and, you know, it shows the sensitivity that we should all have.

01:26:40

I had a situation just the other day. My own son had dealt with an issue with some friends and felt a bit betrayed by a certain situation, and, you know, watching him become emotional about this,

01:26:57

I recognized I had been through something very similar. But rather than leaning into the idea,

01:27:03

I know exactly how you feel, I simply positioned myself in a space where I was there for him to comfort him, to provide support for him, to pray for him, and to be there if he needed someone to talk to.

01:27:17

It's more important for that to take place than it is for you to declare that you know exactly how they feel, because you may not, and those words don't often provide the comfort that you believe they provide.

01:27:34

Amen. We're going to our final break right now, and if you do intend to get in line and ask a question of Virgil Walker, I would urge you, please, to do so immediately, because we are rapidly running out of time.

01:27:49

Again, our email address is chrisarnson at gmail .com. chrisarnson at gmail .com.

01:27:54

Give us your first name at least, your city and state of residence, and your country of residence if you live outside the USA.

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Don't go away. We'll be right back with Virgil Walker after these messages from our sponsors. The Mid -Atlantic

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That's why Truth, Love, Parent exists. We serve God by equipping dads and moms to be the ambassador parents

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God called and created them to be. We produce free parenting resources, train church leaders and offer biblical counseling so that the next generation of dads and moms can use the scriptures to parent their children for life and godliness.

01:40:26

Please visit us at TruthLoveParent .com. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

01:40:45

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:40:54

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:41:01

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959.

01:41:07

We have a world class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:41:16

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.

01:41:22

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:41:29

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:41:39

That's liyfc .org. Every day at thousands of community centers, high schools, middle schools, juvenile institutions, coffee shops and local hangouts,

01:42:02

Long Island Youth for Christ staff and volunteers meet with young people who need Jesus. We are rural and urban and we are always about the message of Jesus.

01:42:11

Our mission is to have a noticeable spiritual impact on Long Island, New York by engaging young people in the lifelong journey of following Christ.

01:42:19

Long Island Youth for Christ has been a stalwart bedrock ministry since 1959. We have a world class staff and a proven track record of bringing consistent love and encouragement to youths in need all over the country and around the world.

01:42:33

Help honor our history by becoming a part of our future. Volunteer, donate, pray or all of the above.

01:42:40

For details call Long Island Youth for Christ at 631 -385 -8333.

01:42:47

That's 631 -385 -8333. Or visit liyfc .org.

01:42:56

That's liyfc .org. As host of Iron Sharpens Iron Radio, I frequently get requests from listeners for church recommendations.

01:43:26

The church I've been strongly recommending as far back as the 1980s is Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey, pastored by Alan Dunn.

01:43:36

Grace Covenant Baptist Church believes it's God's prerogative to determine how he shall be worshipped and how he shall be represented in the world.

01:43:44

They believe churches need to turn to the Bible to discover what to include in worship and how to worship

01:43:50

God in spirit and truth. Grace Covenant Baptist Church endeavors to maintain a

01:43:55

God -centered focus. Reading, preaching and hearing the Word of God, singing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, baptism and communion are the scriptural elements of their corporate worship, performed with faith, joy and sobriety.

01:44:10

Discover more about Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey at gcbcnj .squarespace

01:44:19

.com. That's gcbcnj .squarespace .com.

01:44:26

Or call them at 908 -996 -7654. That's 908 -996 -7654.

01:44:35

Tell Pastor Dunn that you heard about Grace Covenant Baptist Church on Iron Sharpens Iron Radio. And please don't forget, folks, that the new website for Grace Covenant Baptist Church in Flemington, New Jersey is gcbc -nj .org.

01:44:59

gcbc -nj .org. Please disregard the website you heard in that commercial.

01:45:12

When Iron Sharpens Iron Radio first launched in 2005, the publishers of the

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01:47:01

Welcome back, we are now in the final segment of our interview with Virgil Walker, and we are continuing our discussion of the divine dilemma, wrestling with the question of a loving

01:47:14

God in a fallen world. And that seems to be a major problem as well with the understanding of man and too much of Christianity.

01:47:28

They really don't look at man as fallen. They look at man as behaving badly through learned experience.

01:47:39

As the old saying goes, is it nurture or nature? They don't really believe in the total depravity of man.

01:47:48

They may believe that God, I'm sorry, that man is somehow wounded, but he still has enough inner light where he can live a wonderful and just a life that blesses the entire community surrounding him or her.

01:48:10

And they really don't understand the depth of evil, do they? No, they absolutely don't.

01:48:16

I mean, Ephesians chapter two is a clear indication of the depravity of man.

01:48:23

As we kind of open the page, we have Paul writing to the church at Ephesus, and he clearly states that when he examined the condition of man, what he found was that we were dead in our sins and trespasses in which we once walked.

01:48:39

Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is in the hearts of those who are disobedient.

01:48:48

We, like all, were children of wrath, like the rest of mankind, deserving of God's wrath.

01:48:54

Romans chapter five tells us that through one man, sin enters the world and death through sin so that death spread to all men because all sinned.

01:49:05

We have an unrealized or a lack of understanding, that's probably the best way to say it, of what sin has actually done in the hearts of mankind.

01:49:19

And as a result, what we have a tendency to believe is that evil is some force outside of us, that if God were to come back and eradicate evil in the world, that it would vanish and we would still be here.

01:49:35

The reality is, if God were to vanquish evil from the earth, each and every one of us would be vanquished with that evil.

01:49:43

And so for those who would love for God to come and take all of the bad away, take all of the harm and hurt away, the vast majority of the hurt, harm and danger is perpetrated on man by man.

01:49:56

So when we have an understanding of that, we recognize that what God is displaying is his grace and mercy upon those of us who are wicked and evil.

01:50:08

And that it is only through our understanding, acknowledgement, repentance and faith in Christ, through the proclamation of the gospel, that we come into the light of truth that God has designed for those who love him.

01:50:23

Now, I hinted at this earlier and I said I would come back to it, so I'll do that now.

01:50:30

The reverse side of the person who just wants to use an opportunity when somebody is in their worst point of pain, suffering and trial is to preach at them.

01:50:45

The reverse side of that is the one who, even knowing theologically better, does nothing but comfort the person with false comfort.

01:50:57

They do not bring up sin at all. Now, keep in mind,

01:51:04

I'm not a word of faith Pentecostal heretic who tells people who are ill or disabled that this is because they lack faith.

01:51:15

Some of the most highly revered giants of the

01:51:22

Christian faith died at young ages of various illnesses, including Robert Murray McShane died at 29.

01:51:27

One of the greatest Christian pastors, evangelists and thinkers that walked the face of the earth.

01:51:38

But at the same time, somebody is dying of AIDS and you're visiting the hospital.

01:51:43

Do you not mention anything about if they are not repenting and they're not acknowledging that they're there because of their sin?

01:51:51

You know, we're not supposed to say anything. And it's not just that could be any other issue could be somebody dying of liver disease because they're an alcoholic, dying from drug abuse.

01:52:03

You know, we could go on and on and on. And even with somebody who is dying without Christ, who is dying just from a common ailment that had nothing to do with a destructive lifestyle.

01:52:20

There are there are even atheists who sometimes in a in a arena and an area of health and fitness are better specimens than many

01:52:33

Christians are. So. Right. But as far as that goes, when somebody is dying or in great pain and suffering without Christ, do we not have to bring up sin?

01:52:45

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's it's it's a necessity. The only hope that they actually have would be that God, by the power of this, by the power of his

01:52:57

Holy Spirit, through the proclamation of the gospel would would illuminate their heart and mind to their need for him.

01:53:05

And that that would only come as a result of hearing the message of the gospel. The gospel includes the fact that we are indeed sinners who are in need of a savior.

01:53:16

I think for the most part, you know, telling someone that they're a sinner or saying to someone that they're a sinner is is is really the only sin that can be committed these days.

01:53:28

And the reality is that scripture is clear that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that apart from a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, we will all enter an eternity separated from him in hell.

01:53:44

Well, we've reached the point in the show where I want to make sure that you summarize what you most want etched in the hearts and minds of our listeners today regarding the subject.

01:53:55

And also, let's repeat to our listeners how they can register for the

01:54:01

G3 conference. Yeah, absolutely. You can jump on to the to G3 men,

01:54:07

G3MIN .org and get registered for the conference. It's going to be amazing.

01:54:12

September 21st through the 23rd. You just won't want to miss this one.

01:54:18

If you're even close to the area, you've got to get here. Go on to G3men .org and get registered for the conference.

01:54:25

And we look forward to seeing you there. But again, we will be talking about the sovereignty of God and God is sovereign in all things, even in the fact that we experience evil, that evil is the result of our sin, our sin against the

01:54:41

Holy God. That same sin, which separated us from him and subjects us apart from repentance and faith, subjects us to an eternity separated from him.

01:54:52

It is imperative that we know that Christ came, lived a perfect life, died a death he did not deserve on a

01:54:58

Roman cross for the very purpose of saving sinners. If those of us would acknowledge that sacrifice, repent of our sin, place our full faith in his finished work and his finished work alone, we can apprehend eternal life.

01:55:15

And so it would be my encouragement to all who are listening to do that very thing, to repent of their sin and place their full faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ.

01:55:23

Amen. And please, folks, don't forget when you're registering for the G3 conference, and I strongly urge you to register because you are going to experience,

01:55:35

I am confident, an event like you've never experienced in your life as a

01:55:40

Christian in regard to special events such as this conference. Please go to G3men .org

01:55:47

and use promo code G3ISIR, which stands for G3 Iron Shepherds Iron Radio, G3ISIR, and you'll get 30 percent off the registration fee.

01:56:01

Also, I don't want you to forget the week before the G3 conference, my dear friend,

01:56:07

Dr. James R. White of Alpha Omega Ministries, who is also speaking at the G3 conference, but the week before that, he is going to be involved in the

01:56:17

Future of Christendom conference right here in Pennsylvania in Lancaster at the Spooky Nook Sports and Events.

01:56:24

It sounds like a weird place, but Spooky Nook is a beautiful facility that even the governor, when the governor of Pennsylvania was in the last election race,

01:56:41

I'm sorry, well, he wasn't yet the governor, he lost the race, but Doug Mastriana was running for governor.

01:56:49

He used this facility for one of his major campaigns. It's a gorgeous facility, and the event is being held

01:56:59

September 15th, 16th, and 17th. On September 16th, the conference includes a debate that Dr.

01:57:06

James R. White is having with Dr. Gregory Coles, and the theme is, Is Gay Christian a

01:57:13

Biblically acceptable identity for a member of Christ's Church? Dr. James R.

01:57:18

White opposes that question, denies it, and Gregory Coles affirms it.

01:57:25

So that will be a part of this three -day conference, and you will also be served on Saturday lunch and refreshments as a part of your registration, and there will also be an invitation to attend the

01:57:37

Sunday service the next day. Please, go to futureofchristendom .org, futureofchristendom .org

01:57:44

to find out more about this and to register for this event. The sooner that you register, the less expensive your registration will be.

01:57:52

That's September 15th, 16th, and 17th at Spooky Nook Sports and Events in Mannheim, Pennsylvania, which is in Lancaster County.

01:58:00

Well, Virgil, it has been such a wonderful pleasure to have you back on the program again.

01:58:06

I look forward to your many return visits. I hope that we have many opportunities to speak on this program before the

01:58:14

G3 conference, and I've interviewed most of the speakers that you have on the roster.

01:58:20

There's just a few that I'm trying to get on that I haven't yet been able to interview that I hope

01:58:26

I do, but thank you so much for blessing me and my audience with such a wonderful program today, brother.

01:58:34

Hey, thanks for having me, man. I look forward to the next time. Me too, and I want to thank everybody who listened today, especially those who took the time to write in questions.

01:58:43

I want you all to always remember for the rest of your lives that Jesus Christ is a far greater